Bethel's Unpunishable Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong

Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/CVOsu-wF4Ps/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [bethel-church, clergy-sexual-abuse, unpunishable-doctrine, church-restoration, pastoral-misconduct, spiritual-abuse] > author: John Mark Baker > source: Minor Prophets Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened:** John Mark Baker and Dr. Ron Caner analyze Danny Silk's book "Unpunishable," examining its theology of restoration for fallen ministers and its application in two major cases: Ben Armstrong and Jonathan Welton. - **Why it matters:** This doctrine has contributed to dangerous restoration practices that prioritize returning abusive ministers to ministry over protecting victims and church communities. - **Key stakeholders:** Danny Silk, Bethel Church leadership, Ben Armstrong, Jonathan Welton, abuse survivors Sarah and Roz, church communities affected by these teachings. - **Risks and tradeoffs:** The approach protects predators while endangering vulnerable congregants, creates theological justification for minimizing serious abuse, and establishes dangerous precedents for church discipline. - **Bottom line:** The "unpunishable" doctrine is biblically unsound, practically dangerous, and prioritizes restoring abusers over protecting victims and communities. ## 📖 Main Content The podcast provides a comprehensive critique of Danny Silk's "Unpunishable" doctrine, which has influenced restoration practices at Bethel Church and beyond. The core theological error lies in Silk's false distinction between "punishment" and "discipline," claiming God never punishes but only disciplines. ### Central Theological Problems Silk argues that punishment reflects humanity's "baser urges" while discipline represents God's true nature. He claims Jesus came to correct humanity's "false view of God as a punisher." This creates a fundamental theological error by: 1. **Dividing the Old and New Testament God:** Silk portrays the Old Testament God as punitive while the New Testament God is purely restorative 2. **Redefining sin as "mess":** Using euphemistic language that minimizes the severity of abuse 3. **Eliminating divine justice:** Claiming God only passively allows consequences rather than actively judging sin ### Practical Failures in Application The doctrine's dangerous practical implications are demonstrated through two case studies: **Ben Armstrong Case:** - Danny Silk immediately asked "What does coming back to ministry look like?" rather than focusing on victim care - The victim (Sarah) was given only two sentences in the first chapter of the book - Sarah's story was told without her permission to sell books - The restoration process excluded the victim while centering the abuser - Ben Armstrong was later removed from ministry again when Sarah publicly shared her story **Jonathan Welton Case:** - The book was published before restoration was complete - Multiple victims were not consulted in the restoration process - The process failed, yet the book was not updated to reflect this failure ### The Language of Minimization Throughout the analysis, Baker and Caner highlight Silk's systematic use of euphemistic language: - "Affair" instead of abuse or assault - "Mess" and "messmaker" instead of sin and sinner - "Scared deer" metaphor for approaching abusive ministers with gentleness This language minimizes the severity of abuse while centering the comfort of perpetrators over the protection of victims. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=0) Introduction and Context - Charismatic movement has created "hyper grace God" with no wrath for sin - When authority is abused for sexual exploitation, reinstatement gambles with souls - Book written by Danny Silk examines jurisprudence for restoration of fallen ministers #### ⏱️ [00:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=150) Two Case Studies - Ben Armstrong case: victim Sarah interviewed by Bla1 and Christina Fere - Jonathan Welton case: last three chapters center around this restoration - Question: Is this biblical, practical, and does it make church safer? #### ⏱️ [00:05:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=315) Danny Silk's Financial Motivation - Allegedly gets paid several hundred dollars per hour to restore abusive pastors - Distinguishes between walking into bar vs. using position of authority to prey - Position of authority manipulation makes it disqualifying #### ⏱️ [00:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=420) "Scared Deer" Approach - Silk approaches fallen ministers like trying to pet a scared deer - "I pose zero threat" - won't control, hurt, punish, shame, or protect others from them - Sarah gets two sentences in first chapter; her story told without permission #### ⏱️ [00:10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=630) Case Study Failures - Ben Armstrong removed from ministry after Sarah told her story - Roz came forward about being groomed by Armstrong - Word "affair" used seven times but testimonies describe grooming - Jonathan Welton book published before restoration complete #### ⏱️ [00:15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=945) Theological Distinction: Punishment vs Discipline - Central thesis distinguishes punishment from discipline - Claims distinction lies at heart of new covenant - Punishment portrayed as human paradigm; discipline as God's nature - Systematic confrontation of humanity's "false views of God" #### ⏱️ [00:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1200) Problems with Old vs New Testament God - Silk suggests different God between covenants - Grace present throughout Old Testament (Israelites rescued from Egypt) - Jesus appears throughout Old Testament - Same God: Yahweh, Jesus, Father, Son, Holy Spirit #### ⏱️ [00:25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1515) "Mess" Language - Word "mess" used over 100 times as euphemism for sin - Minimizes "horrific, destructive behavior that deeply wounds souls" - Focus solely on "messmaker" with almost no emphasis on victim wounds - Contrast with two years of talking to clergy sexual abuse victims #### ⏱️ [00:27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1650) Video Analysis: Immediate Ministry Focus - Danny immediately asks Ben: "What does coming back to ministry look like?" - Sarah not asked same question about her restoration - Missing person at reconciliation table: Sarah (she had left years earlier) - Ministry continuation prioritized over family restoration #### ⏱️ [00:32:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1965) Heather's Revealing Comment - "Maybe they were keeping Ben along because testing if the book really worked" - Laughter reveals they know this is what happened - "We're just propping this book up" - Truth revealed in jest #### ⏱️ [00:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2100) Punishment vs Discipline Framework - Punishment: upholding rules, worldly sorrow, submission/control, external law - Discipline: restoring relationship, godly sorrow, responsibility/self-control, internal law - Problem: narrow view makes "mince meat out of the Bible" #### ⏱️ [00:40:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2415) Exodus 34:6-7 Analysis - God proclaims His essential nature to Moses - Merciful AND "will by no means clear the guilty" - "Visiting iniquity" = punishing (NIV: "does not leave guilty unpunished") - God's justice through punishment intrinsic to His nature #### ⏱️ [00:45:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2730) Moral Intuition and Justice - Human moral intuition demands justice for severe crimes - If judge forgives reformed murderer, righteous outcry follows - Recognition that punishment for guilty is just and right - Especially true when victim is family member or loved one #### ⏱️ [00:48:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2880) Biblical Examples of Punishment - Adam and Eve: consequences for disobedience - Cain: punished for killing Abel - David: suffered greatly after repentance despite Psalm 51 - "You don't want the King David deal" - son died, family chaos followed #### ⏱️ [00:52:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3135) 2 Samuel 12:7-14 Analysis - Nathan confronts David: "You are the man" - God declares consequences: sword never depart from house - David repents, receives forgiveness, but child still dies - Forgiveness doesn't remove consequences #### ⏱️ [00:55:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3330) New Testament Punishment - Ananias and Sapphira struck dead for lying - Revelation 3: Jezebel faces judgment - God declares "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" - Only hope is trusting God's justice allows us to forgive #### ⏱️ [00:58:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3525) Hell and Active vs Passive Punishment - Silk: God passively allows consequences, doesn't actively punish - Hebrew scholar: little difference between allowing and actively permitting - Hell is active judgment, not just natural consequences - Hebrew doesn't support passive interpretation #### ⏱️ [01:02:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3720) Romans 13: Government as God's Agents - Authorities established by God as "agents of wrath" - Bear sword "to bring punishment on wrongdoer" - Government servants are God's servants, not Satan's - If good for government, good for church - good is good #### ⏱️ [01:06:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3975) Contradictory Statements in Book - Page 180: "Our job as shepherds is to protect innocent people" - Page 129: "I'm not here to try to protect other people from you" - Core failure: lack of discernment about wolves vs sheep - Failure to recognize when repentance type doesn't matter for restoration #### ⏱️ [01:10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=4230) Repeat Offender Argument - Silk: "Many leaders are repeat offenders without losing position" - "Just successful in hiding sin or sinning acceptably" - Caner: "Horrible argument" - like saying can't catch all shoplifters so let caught ones go - Wrong standard: can't hold everyone accountable so don't hold anyone accountable #### ⏱️ [01:15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=4545) Book Focus: Serious Sexual Abuse - Ben Armstrong: multiple "affairs" now understood as grooming - Jonathan Welton: authority abuse with subordinates - Not minor issues like gossip - serious betrayals of trust - Armstrong case: "We hit pay dirt" response to discovering more abuse #### ⏱️ [01:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=4800) Shepherd vs Wolf Responsibility - Shepherd's responsibility to sheep, not wolves - Personal experience: had to choose victim over close friend who committed CSA - Problem: covering for ministry buddies instead of protecting sheep - Belief that church destruction coming due to unpunished leadership sin #### ⏱️ [01:25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=5115) Authority Abuse vs Personal Sin - Position of authority abuse violates trust on level requiring permanent disqualification - Different from personal sins with no victims - "Evil" and "wrong" to reinstate authority abusers - Must err on side of protecting sheep, not "messmaker" #### ⏱️ [01:28:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=5310) Conflict of Interest Problem - Silk plays both counselor (therapeutic) and community protector roles - These roles at cross-purposes with each other - Rogerian unconditional positive regard conflicts with protection duty - Same conflict appears in both case studies #### ⏱️ [01:30:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=5445) Matthew 24:45-51 God's Heart for Protection - Faithful servant blessed vs wicked servant who "beats fellow servants" - God's response to abusive authority: "cut him in pieces" - God's heart protects His people through punishment of abusive leaders - "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord" - God will exact punishment on authority abusers ## 📚 References - [Unpunishable by Danny Silk](reference-url-if-available) - [Bla1 and Christina Fere interview with Sarah](reference-url-if-available) - [Mike Winger 6-hour video on Shawn Bolz](reference-url-if-available) - [Minor Prophets Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/channel/channel-id) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase The Minor Prophets podcast hosts provide a devastating critique of Bethel Church's restoration theology as outlined in Danny Silk's "Unpunishable." They demonstrate how this doctrine creates a false theological framework that prioritizes returning abusive ministers to power over protecting victims and church communities. The hosts systematically dismantle Silk's central premise that God doesn't punish but only disciplines, showing through extensive biblical analysis that divine justice includes active punishment for sin. They reveal how the doctrine's euphemistic language ("mess" instead of sin, "affair" instead of abuse) minimizes serious crimes while centering the comfort of perpetrators. Most damning, they expose how the doctrine's two key case studies—Ben Armstrong and Jonathan Welton—both failed, with Armstrong being removed from ministry again and victims' stories contradicting the sanitized versions presented in the book. The analysis reveals a systematic pattern of excluding victims from restoration processes while immediately focusing on returning abusers to ministry positions. ## 📰 Newsletter 🚨 **Critical Analysis: Why Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine Endangers Churches** This week's deep dive examines the theological and practical failures of Danny Silk's influential restoration framework. The Minor Prophets podcast delivers a masterclass in biblical analysis, showing how seemingly compassionate theology can actually enable abuse. **Key Takeaways for Church Leaders:** - **Theological Red Flags:** Any doctrine that eliminates divine punishment contradicts core biblical teaching - **Language Matters:** Watch for euphemistic terms that minimize serious abuse ("affair" vs assault, "mess" vs sin) - **Process Failures:** Restoration that excludes victims while centering abusers is fundamentally flawed - **Conflict of Interest:** Same person cannot effectively counsel abusers AND protect communities **Essential Resources:** - Full podcast analysis provides biblical framework for healthy church discipline - Case study failures demonstrate real-world consequences of faulty theology - Romans 13 analysis shows God's design for justice through proper authorities **Bottom Line:** Shepherds protect sheep from wolves—not the other way around. True restoration theology must prioritize victim safety and community protection while maintaining biblical standards for church leadership. ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Evaluate current church discipline and restoration policies for victim-centered approaches - Develop clear disqualification criteria for authority-based abuse cases - Implement mandatory reporting protocols for suspected abuse regardless of "repentance" - Create victim advocacy roles separate from leadership restoration processes - Establish external oversight for any restoration processes involving serious misconduct - Train leadership to recognize grooming behaviors vs consensual adult relationships #### WordPress - Document theological resources on biblical church discipline for community reference - Create educational content distinguishing healthy vs harmful restoration practices - Develop safety guidelines for WordPress community leadership accountability ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Churches using "unpunishable" theology will have higher rates of repeat offenses among restored leaders - Victim-excluded restoration processes correlate with continued abuse patterns - Euphemistic language for abuse predicts inadequate protective measures - Financial incentives for restoration consultants create conflicts of interest affecting victim safety - Churches distinguishing Old Testament vs New Testament God show higher tolerance for leadership abuse - Communities prioritizing leader restoration over victim care experience higher exodus rates among members ## 📊 Methodology **Theological Analysis Framework:** - Systematic examination of biblical texts on divine justice and punishment - Comparative analysis of Old Testament and New Testament punishment examples - Evaluation of restoration theology against comprehensive biblical teaching **Case Study Analysis:** - Document outcomes of restoration processes in Ben Armstrong and Jonathan Welton cases - Compare victim testimonies with official restoration narratives - Track long-term effectiveness of restoration interventions **Language Pattern Analysis:** - Catalog euphemistic terminology used in restoration literature - Measure frequency and context of minimizing language - Compare victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered language patterns ## ❓ Questions - How many churches have adopted "unpunishable" doctrine principles in their discipline policies? - What are the recidivism rates for ministers restored under this framework? - How do victim outcomes differ between victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered restoration approaches? - What financial relationships exist between restoration consultants and the churches hiring them? - How does theological training on divine justice correlate with effective church discipline practices? ## 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of restoration outcomes comparing different theological frameworks - Analysis of victim healing trajectories in various restoration approaches - Examination of legal liability issues for churches using inadequate restoration processes - Investigation of financial incentive structures in restoration consulting industry - Development of victim-centered restoration models with biblical foundation ## 💡 Implications **Practice:** Churches must develop restoration policies that prioritize victim safety and community protection while maintaining possibilities for genuine redemption outside leadership roles. **Policy:** Denominational bodies need clear disqualification standards for authority-based abuse that cannot be overridden by claims of repentance. **Security:** Implementation of external oversight and accountability measures for any restoration processes involving serious misconduct. **Education:** Comprehensive training for church leaders on recognizing manipulation, grooming, and the differences between personal sin and authority abuse. **Funding:** Evaluation of financial incentive structures that may compromise restoration consultant objectivity and victim safety. ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment **Reading level estimate:** Grade 12-14 (using Flesch-Kincaid formula) - Score: 7.2/10 #### 👀 Visual learners **Present:** Systematic theological comparisons, clear distinction tables (punishment vs discipline), biblical text analysis **Improve:** Flowcharts showing restoration process failures, timeline graphics of case studies, visual comparison of victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered approaches #### 🔊 Aural learners **Present:** Podcast format with two-host dialogue, quoted material read aloud, conversational analysis style **Improve:** Audio-only summary version, discussion guide for group listening, supplemental audio commentary #### 🗣️ Verbal learners **Present:** Clear definitions of theological terms, extensive biblical quotations, analogies (shepherd/wolf, judge/criminal) **Improve:** Glossary of restoration terminology, expanded analogies section, discussion questions for verbal processing #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners **Present:** Step-by-step analysis of restoration processes, practical application examples, action-oriented recommendations **Improve:** Interactive case study exercises, role-playing scenarios for identifying red flags, hands-on policy development templates #### 🧠 Logical learners **Present:** Systematic theological arguments, cause-and-effect analysis of restoration failures, logical progression through biblical texts **Improve:** Decision trees for restoration scenarios, formal logic analysis of theological claims, quantitative analysis of case study outcomes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners **Present:** Two-host collaborative analysis, community impact focus, discussion of church relationships **Improve:** Group study guide, community discussion forums, collaborative policy development exercises #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners **Present:** Detailed biblical study sections, individual reflection prompts through questioning, personal application challenges **Improve:** Self-assessment tools for church policies, private journaling prompts, independent research suggestions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners **Present:** Shepherd/sheep ecosystem analogies, organic community health metaphors **Improve:** Extended metaphors from natural protection systems, environmental health parallels, ecosystem balance analogies ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics **Present:** Clear heading hierarchy, descriptive timestamps, quoted material properly formatted **Improve:** Alt text for any embedded images, table headers for comparison charts, ARIA labels for video content #### Keyboard navigation **Present:** Standard web navigation, logical tab order in timestamps **Improve:** Skip links for major sections, keyboard shortcuts for timestamp navigation, focus indicators on interactive elements #### Contrast and readability **Present:** Standard text formatting, clear section breaks **Improve:** High contrast mode option, customizable text sizing, reduced motion preferences #### Text resizing and reflow **Present:** Responsive formatting supports standard zoom levels **Improve:** Mobile-optimized timestamp navigation, reflowing tables for small screens, adaptive layout for large text #### Media and captions **Present:** Full transcript provided, timestamps linked to video content **Improve:** Professional closed captions for video, audio descriptions for visual content, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions **Present:** Simple navigation structure, clear links **Improve:** Form validation for any feedback mechanisms, accessible video controls, error messaging for broken links #### Standards reference Maps well to WCAG 2.2 AA with improvements needed in multimedia accessibility and interactive element labeling. ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth **Present:** Focus on American evangelical context, some awareness of broader Christian traditions **Improve:** International perspectives on church discipline, cross-cultural restoration practices, diverse denominational approaches #### Inclusive language **Present:** Generally accessible theological language, defined technical terms **Improve:** Plain language alternatives for theological jargon, expanded definitions section, non-denominational framing where possible #### Neurodiversity support **Present:** Clear structure with consistent formatting, logical progression through arguments **Improve:** Executive summary sections, bullet point alternatives to dense paragraphs, consistent visual formatting cues #### Representation **Present:** Male host perspectives, some victim voice inclusion through case studies **Improve:** More diverse theological voices, expanded victim perspective integration, female leadership input on restoration practices #### Psychological safety **Present:** Sensitive handling of abuse topics, content warnings implied through subject matter **Improve:** Explicit content warnings for abuse discussions, trauma-informed language choices, resource links for abuse survivors ## ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning **Deductive strength (biblical analysis):** Systematic examination of biblical texts supporting divine justice demonstrates strong logical progression from premises to conclusions. **Inductive strength (case studies):** Pattern recognition across multiple restoration failures provides compelling evidence for doctrine's practical problems. **Causal analysis:** Clear demonstration of how theological errors lead to practical failures in victim protection and community safety. #### Fallacies **Ad hominem (minor):** Occasional focus on Danny Silk's financial incentives rather than purely theological arguments. **Fix:** Maintain focus on theological and practical critiques while noting conflicts of interest separately. **False dichotomy (avoided):** Successfully avoids creating false choice between forgiveness and accountability by distinguishing redemption from restoration to leadership. **Appeal to consequences:** Some arguments focus on dangerous outcomes rather than theological truth. **Fix:** Strengthen biblical foundation for protection-focused approach independent of practical outcomes. #### Tone of voice **Tone:** Concerned pastoral urgency with academic rigor. Examples: "This is deeply problematic," "We believe that this book has contributed," "It is evil... to reinstate that person." Combines scholarly analysis with protective passion appropriate for addressing dangerous doctrine. ## 🛡️ DARVO Analysis **Deny:** The "unpunishable" doctrine systematically denies the severity of abuse by reframing it as "mess" rather than sin, minimizing victim trauma while emphasizing perpetrator rehabilitation. **Attack:** Subtle attacking of traditional church discipline as "punishment paradigm" that reflects "humanity's baser urges" rather than biblical wisdom, positioning critics as lacking understanding of "new covenant" principles. **Reverse victim/offender:** Most prominently seen in treating fallen leaders as "scared deer" needing gentle protection while positioning accountability measures as threatening and harmful to the "messmaker." **Emotional cues:** Language of fear ("scared deer"), protection ("I pose zero threat"), and therapeutic concern creates emotional framework favoring perpetrator comfort over victim safety. **Related fallacies:** Appeal to pity for "messmakers," false dilemma between grace and accountability, strawman characterization of biblical discipline as purely punitive. ## 🎯 Conclusion The "unpunishable" doctrine represents a fundamental theological error with devastating practical consequences for church communities. By eliminating divine punishment from God's character and reframing authority-based abuse as mere "mess," this teaching creates a framework that prioritizes returning predators to power over protecting vulnerable community members. The biblical analysis demonstrates that God's justice includes active punishment alongside mercy—both are intrinsic to His nature. The case study failures reveal that even when applied by its primary advocate, this doctrine fails to produce genuine restoration while endangering additional victims. Churches must develop restoration theologies that maintain both biblical standards for leadership and genuine care for those who have fallen, while always prioritizing the protection of vulnerable community members. True shepherds protect sheep from wolves, not the reverse. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong ### 📚 Literature Atoms (H3) #### Danny Silk treats fallen ministers like "scared deer" requiring protection > [!quote] ID:rw_transcript_001 > One illustration I use to describe the spirit of gentleness in reference to Galatians 6:1 is to imagine trying to pet a deer. The only way I am going to be successful is if I can convince that deer that I pose zero threat to it. **Context & use**: - Chapter describing Silk's approach to restoration counseling - Reveals priority system protecting perpetrators over victims and communities - Demonstrates conflict between therapeutic role and community protection duty **Tags**: #xref #clergy-abuse-theology **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://open-video-transcript)  #### Unpunishable doctrine eliminates God's punitive justice from biblical theology > [!quote] ID:rw_transcript_002 > In revealing the father, Jesus systematically confronted and exposed humanity's false views of God. In particular, the view of God as a punisher who endorses the human punishment paradigm while revealing his plan to eliminate the punishment paradigm by forgiving sin. **Context & use**: - Core theological foundation of Silk's restoration framework - Creates false distinction between Old Testament "punisher" and New Testament "discipliner" - Contradicts biblical texts showing God's justice as intrinsic to His nature **Tags**: #theology #biblical-interpretation **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://open-video-transcript)  #### Restoration processes exclude victims while immediately focusing on ministry return > [!quote] ID:rw_transcript_003 > You asked me a question early on. Actually, we were sitting in your office and you said, "So, what does coming back to ministry look like?" And I I was surprised you even asked that question because I didn't think that was even on the table. **Context & use**: - Ben Armstrong describing Danny Silk's immediate ministry restoration focus - Demonstrates priority inversion in restoration jurisprudence - Sarah (the victim) was never asked parallel questions about her restoration needs **Tags**: #restoration-process #victim-exclusion **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://open-video-transcript)  ### 🧠 Permanent Candidates (H4) #### Biblical church discipline must prioritize sheep protection over wolf restoration **Claim**: When ministers abuse positional authority for sexual exploitation, permanent disqualification from leadership serves biblical justice and community protection regardless of repentance quality. **Evidence pointer**: [[#Restoration processes exclude victims while immediately focusing on ministry return]] **Scope & conditions**: Applies specifically to authority-based abuse cases where trust violation affects entire community; personal sins without victims require different restoration approaches **Links**: - [[Church discipline theology]] — because extends biblical framework - [[Victim-centered restoration]] — because contrasts with perpetrator-focused approaches - [[Romans 13 government authority]] — because applies parallel justice principles  ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research recidivism rates for ministers restored under "unpunishable" framework vs traditional discipline — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps #fleeting #research - [F2] Investigate financial relationships between restoration consultants and hiring churches for conflict of interest analysis — #fleeting #investigation ### → Things 3 (max 2 actions) - [ ] Review church discipline policies for victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered language and processes #things - [ ] Create educational resource distinguishing biblical discipline from punishment paradigm theology #things --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] We in the charismatic movement has [00:02] created this hyper grace God that has no [00:05] wrath for sin. And we've become just [00:07] like him. He has no justice for victims. [00:10] He has no vengeance. And we have adopted [00:12] that exact same mentality. And then we [00:15] have become like this false god that [00:17] we've created. When you have abused your [00:20] position of authority to sexually take [00:22] advantage of somebody under your [00:24] spiritual care, you have violated trust [00:27] on such a level that to reinstate that [00:30] person back into ministry is to gamble [00:33] with the souls and the lives of God's [00:35] people. [00:40] Welcome to the Minor Prophets podcast. [00:42] I'm John Mark Baker. Today I am joined [00:44] by Dr. Ron Caner. We're going to be [00:47] looking at Unpunishable. This is a book [00:51] written by Danny Silk, obviously with [00:54] Bethl um coming under scrutiny. There's [00:58] there's so much that is being revealed [01:00] right now. And I think it's really [01:01] important that we um investigate the the [01:07] ideas that got us into the mess we're [01:09] in. And uh you know, sorry to uh use a [01:13] triggering term there, but um [01:15] >> I I picked up on that the word mess. [01:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's going to uh subtle [01:22] foreshadowing here that's going to [01:24] become important in this episode. So, um [01:28] Ron and I, we've been working on this [01:30] video responding to the theology and the [01:32] practice of Unpunishable by Danny Silk. [01:36] Now this book um uh lays out a juristp [01:40] prudence for restoration of fallen [01:44] ministers. There are two major cases [01:47] that uh Danny lays out as the proof of [01:51] his concepts that they actually that [01:53] they actually work. And so um we're [01:57] going to examine the theology and then [02:00] we're going to examine those cases. [02:01] Those are the the cases of Ben [02:04] Armstrong. Um, which Bla1 and Christina [02:07] Fere uh did an excellent job [02:10] interviewing Sarah who was Ben's victim, [02:13] you know, the survivor of of Ben's [02:15] predations. We're going to be looking at [02:17] that. Then there's another case, the [02:19] case of Jonathan Welton, which the last [02:22] three chapters of Unpunishable really [02:24] center around. And we're going to [02:26] examine Danny's juristp prudence that's [02:28] laid out in the book and then applied to [02:31] the case of Jonathan Welton and ask [02:33] ourselves, does this actually bear out [02:35] one, is it biblical? Two, is it [02:38] practical? And three, does it make for a [02:42] safer church or a more dangerous one? [02:46] And um so before we dive into some of [02:48] the uh arguments and and get into some [02:51] of the theology, uh Ron, do you have [02:54] anything that you want to add here in [02:55] the intro? [02:57] >> Yeah, I would say that, you know, we're [02:59] not doing this just to do it. We we [03:01] believe that this book is deeply [03:03] problematic. Uh that it has contri [03:06] contributed to this idea that predators [03:10] can be restored to ministry. that you [03:12] can take somebody who is a wolf [03:14] interested in devouring the sheep and [03:17] and uh reform them, redeem them and then [03:20] and we're not obviously Jesus can do [03:22] anything in terms of redemption and [03:25] changing someone's life. But it does not [03:27] mean that the ultimate goal is that [03:29] you're in ministry as if ministry um is [03:33] is just the chief goal of every human [03:36] being. And um if somebody is a wolf, if [03:40] they've proven once, twice, three times [03:43] that they're willing to pray upon God's [03:46] fault, you know, I'm of the persuasion [03:49] and John Mark, I think you're of the [03:50] persuasion that that person cannot be [03:52] trusted in that position. So, and this [03:55] book has been used wide and far to say, [03:57] "Hey, yeah, we can we can get this guy [04:00] back in ministry." And uh Danny Silk [04:03] himself from what I understand uh gets [04:06] well paid to come into a situation [04:09] several hundred dollars an hour [04:11] allegedly to to restore [04:14] pastors who have committed clergy sexual [04:18] abuse. And more and more, I think most [04:22] uh Christian psychologists and [04:23] counselors and social workers and and [04:26] certainly many many pastors have come to [04:28] the conclusion that once you have we're [04:30] not talking about walking into a bar and [04:32] meeting a girl and and cheating on your [04:34] wife, which is horrible. We're talking [04:37] about using your position of authority [04:41] and [04:42] praying on somebody, manipulating [04:45] prophecy, manipulating your position as [04:47] a moral authority to uh appease your [04:52] sexual gratifications. That in our [04:55] opinion is punishable and it is [04:58] disqualifying. [05:00] >> Yeah, it it's it's disqualifying. Danny [05:03] Silk says in his book that his attitude [05:06] towards uh those ministers who have you [05:10] know fallen who have really prayed upon [05:12] those under their their care is that he [05:15] approaches them like a scared deer and [05:18] he tries to make himself he's not a he's [05:20] not a threat to them. He's not there to [05:22] to control him uh to control this [05:25] person. Let me just read the quote. [05:27] Actually, Danny says this about his [05:30] attitude towards towards those he is [05:33] restoring. Um, one illustration I use to [05:36] describe the spirit of gentleness in [05:39] reference to Galatians 6:1 is to imagine [05:42] trying to pet a deer. The only way I am [05:45] going to be successful is if I can [05:47] convince that deer that I pose zero [05:49] threat to it. That means I need to [05:51] eliminate as much anxiety from the [05:54] encounter as possible. I needed to [05:56] demonstrate that I will not attempt to [05:58] control it or hurt that deer in any way. [06:02] The spirit of gentleness flows from the [06:04] belief that I do not need to control [06:06] you. I am not afraid of you or your [06:08] mess. I'm not here to punish you, shame [06:10] you, or try to protect other people from [06:15] you. I am just here to help you get out [06:18] of this hole. Now, this is the attitude [06:21] of the guy who's telling the story of [06:23] these victims. So, in in Unpunishable, [06:27] the first chapter that's dedicated to uh [06:30] the story of Ben Armstrong and Sarah, [06:33] Sarah gets two sentences dedicated to [06:36] her in the first chapter. [06:38] Her story is told without her [06:40] permission, the story of her abuse, and [06:42] it's used to sell books. And so we don't [06:46] we and everybody just sort of applauded [06:49] the story of of restoration as told by [06:52] Danny Silk without ever having heard [06:54] what Sarah had to say. And the same is [06:57] true of Jonathan Welton. His story has [07:01] been told by Danny Silk and by Jonathan [07:03] Welton. Now before [07:05] >> Yeah. And I think it's interesting that [07:07] uh you know bo both of those cases uh [07:11] case studies we now know uh were faulty. [07:14] Um without going too deep into it right [07:16] now, I'll just say that that right now [07:18] Ben Armstrong has been taken out of [07:21] ministry. He's been put on [07:22] administrative leave, I guess they would [07:24] call it. Um because Sarah has told her [07:28] story. Not just Sarah, also uh Roz uh [07:31] came forward uh a few weeks ago as well [07:34] and said I was groomed by by Ben. I got [07:37] out of the relationship and this was [07:39] before his issues with Sarah probably [07:42] just before maybe a year maybe less. Uh [07:45] but what they're realizing is and in [07:48] that story in that first chapter um the [07:51] word affair is used seven times and when [07:56] we use the word affair that that is a [07:58] consensual relationship but in both [08:01] Sarah's testimony and Roz's testimony [08:04] they were groomed little by little. I [08:06] mean, Roz is very clear that when he met [08:09] alone with her on the few times they met [08:10] alone, uh, in public, but alone, it went [08:14] from his arm suddenly going around her. [08:16] Now, again, this is a I guess he's in [08:19] his late 30s at the time. Um, and she's [08:22] in her uh early 20s and and this is your [08:26] your I guess they called it revival [08:28] group leader. Suddenly, his arm is [08:31] around you. I mean, I can't [08:34] I cannot imagine a scenario where I [08:36] would be alone as a minister in a room [08:39] and think it would be okay for me to put [08:42] my arm around uh somebody who is not my [08:45] wife, not my daughter. And and then it [08:48] went from there to, you know, where this [08:50] is what friends do. And you know, you [08:52] have uh uh relationship issue, intimacy [08:57] issues, and I'm going to God showed me [08:59] you have intimacy issues. I'm going to [09:00] help you with those intimacy issues. And [09:02] then his hand goes in her leg and then [09:04] it goes up her leg. And that's when when [09:06] she began to pull back. Um [09:10] so that when you base a book on a story [09:13] like that and then seven years later [09:15] since the book, you know, 16 years later [09:17] since the almost an affair since the [09:19] abuse, um that that's a problem. And [09:23] then in the issue with with Jonathan [09:25] Welton, the book was published before he [09:28] was restored. In other words, it's like, [09:30] well, we really got to get this book out [09:32] and [09:33] >> you know, he's halfway there or [09:35] threequarters, so let's just cross our [09:37] fingers. Um, but those who are his [09:39] victims, as we'll hear from later, would [09:41] say, "No, he he didn't finish the [09:44] process and the book was never updated." [09:46] And of course, um, we might mention here [09:49] that Shawn BS wrote the forward to the [09:52] book. And as you said earlier, you guys [09:54] a year ago came out, but you blew the [09:57] whistle that we many of us knew about. [09:59] It was kind of the worstkept secret. Uh [10:02] but you guys publicized it and you you [10:04] made it so it had to be dealt with. And [10:06] of course then Mike Winger uh uh two [10:08] months ago coming out with a 6-hour uh [10:12] video regarding Shawn Bows. So Shawn is [10:14] writing the forward of this book who has [10:17] who is himself a predator and Danny [10:22] >> at some point finds out that Shawn is a [10:24] predator but leaves the Ford in his book [10:27] for seven years and only under pressure. [10:31] Not that he woke up one day and said, [10:33] "You know what? This is this is wrong. I [10:35] probably shouldn't have a predator who's [10:37] faking prophecy writing the forward to [10:39] my book about restoration." Um it took [10:42] public pressure for him to come out and [10:44] say that yeah I guess I should remove [10:46] that. [10:48] >> Well it was apppropo [10:50] that uh the uh forward to unpunishable [10:54] would be written by a guy that they [10:56] refused to punish. Um so if we dive into [11:02] some of the uh the theology here the the [11:06] reality is this book uh the central [11:10] thesis of this book is making a [11:12] distinction between punishment and [11:14] discipline. And so um uh Silk claims [11:18] that this distinction lies at the heart [11:20] of the new covenant and Jesus correction [11:24] of humanity's false view of God. So, [11:26] here's a quote from uh page 84 of the [11:30] book. In revealing the father, Jesus [11:33] systematically confronted and exposed [11:36] humanity's false views of God. In [11:38] particular, the view of God as a [11:40] punisher who endorses the human [11:43] punishment paradigm while revealing his [11:46] plan to eliminate the punishment [11:48] paradigm by forgiving sin. So punishment [11:51] on his view is not part of God's nature [11:54] but rather a manifestation of humanity's [11:57] baser urges. Discipline by contrast is a [12:00] manifestation of restorative justice [12:02] which is a more pure reflection of God's [12:05] nature according to Dany. And so another [12:08] quote here from the book this is from [12:10] page 110. In the new covenant discipline [12:14] is focused on benefiting the person who [12:16] has made the mess. In the punishment [12:19] paradigm, the focus is on protecting the [12:21] interests of everyone but the offender. [12:24] But in the new covenant, we understand [12:27] that helping the messmaker clean up [12:29] their mess is ultimately what will [12:31] produce justice and healing for everyone [12:34] affected by it. Instead of taking the [12:37] mess away or requiring the mess maker to [12:40] deal with the consequences alone, the [12:42] father's heart is to walk through the [12:44] consequences alongside them, bringing [12:47] comfort, correction, wisdom, and courage [12:50] as they clean it up. And what do you [12:53] make of that so far, Ron? Well, I one of [12:56] the things that concerns me is that [12:58] Danny keeps saying in the New Testament. [12:59] In the New Testament, in the New [13:01] Testament, as if the God of the New [13:04] Testament is different from the God of [13:06] the Old Testament, um it's not like in [13:08] in the Old Testament, he was grumpy and [13:10] angry and he just wanted to punish [13:12] people and then he got born again and [13:15] and in the New Testament, he's suddenly [13:18] the that is not what we believe. We [13:20] believe that the the God of the Old [13:22] Testament and yeah there are things in [13:24] the Old Testament that are make you know [13:26] you scratch your head. Uh you know but [13:29] the God of the Old Testament is the God [13:31] of the New Testament. The grace that we [13:33] find and this is another misnomer that [13:35] the New Testament is about grace and the [13:37] Old Testament is about works or law. But [13:39] we see the grace of God all throughout [13:42] the old covenant. The Israelites being [13:44] rescued from Egypt was not based on [13:46] merit. It was based on grace. Um, and [13:49] so, uh, and I think this is kind of a [13:52] Bethl thing. I think it was Bill Johnson [13:54] who I'm going to paraphrase here, but I [13:57] think he says something like, "If you [13:58] see Jesus, you know, you see the [14:00] fullness of God, which I would agree [14:02] with, but if there's anything else [14:03] contradictory to Jesus, then it's it's [14:06] not the real God." I have a real problem [14:08] with that. I I want to look at the Bible [14:11] as as a whole. I wouldn't obviously I'm [14:14] not judging Jesus. I'm saying that, by [14:17] the way, Jesus appears quite a bit in [14:18] the Old Covenant. Um, we see him in [14:21] Joshua as the captain of the armies of [14:23] the Lord of Hosts. We see him in the [14:25] fire with the three Hebrew children. Uh, [14:27] these uh appearances of of Jesus. I [14:30] believe that's who ate lunch with [14:32] Abraham in I think it was Genesis 19, 18 [14:35] or 19. So, we're not trying to reconcile [14:39] Jesus with the God of the Old Test. They [14:41] they are one and the same. Yahweh of the [14:43] Old Covenant, Jesus in the New [14:45] Testament, the Father, the Son, and the [14:46] Holy Spirit. It seems like [14:50] either Danny is saying the Old Testament [14:53] is different from the New Testament in [14:54] terms of the nature of God, or he just [14:56] ignores it, the Old Covenant altogether, [14:59] and just says the New Testament teaches [15:01] in the New Testament. Another thing that [15:03] we'll see, and we alluded to it earlier, [15:05] is he talks, you see in this one [15:07] paragraph, and I'm going to look at it, [15:09] we see the word mess at least one, two, [15:13] three times. I can't remember uh I think [15:16] I counted well over a hundred times the [15:19] word mess, mess maker, my mess, your [15:22] mess. And it's another word for sin. [15:24] It's a nicer word for sin. Um, and so [15:28] when somebody commits adultery, no, they [15:31] don't just commit adultery, but they [15:33] they pray on somebody in their [15:35] congregation. They use prophetic words [15:37] like like, "The Lord showed me my wife [15:39] is going to die and you're going to be [15:41] my my future wife." So, when somebody [15:44] does that, that's called making a mess. [15:46] Most of us look at that as horrific, [15:49] destructive behavior that deeply wounds [15:52] the soul of a victim. But Danny [15:55] constantly refers to that as a mess. And [15:59] the person's responsibility is to clean [16:01] up their mess. And I see in his book [16:04] almost no emphasis on the scar [16:10] on the of the wound that take place that [16:12] takes place on the soul of the victim. I [16:15] have spent the last two years I have [16:17] talked to so many victims of clergy [16:19] sexual abuse or spiritual abuse and and [16:23] coming out of that is so difficult but [16:26] again maybe he's written another book on [16:28] that but this book the focus is solely [16:30] on the quote unquote mess maker and [16:33] that's a concern with me. Yeah, I'm [16:36] gonna show a video here and uh this this [16:41] illustrates exactly what the priorities [16:44] of restoration look like according to [16:46] the unpunishable doctrine. [16:47] >> There was, you know, there was terror in [16:49] your eyes. What did you think was going [16:51] to happen? [16:51] >> Well, you know, I thought my job was [16:54] done. I I didn't even have any question. [16:56] I'm like, ah, okay. This is ministry's [16:58] gone. All that's gone. Do whatever you [17:02] need to do to clean this up with your [17:03] wife and kids. Yeah. [17:04] >> Like that wasn't even my thing. You [17:06] asked me a question early on. Actually, [17:08] we were sitting in your office and you [17:10] said, "So, what does coming back to [17:13] ministry look like?" And I I was [17:15] surprised you even asked that question [17:17] because I didn't think that was even on [17:19] the table. [17:21] So, immediately [17:23] he's asking Ben Armstrong, "What does [17:26] coming back to ministry look like?" I [17:28] mean, this is this is this is immediate. [17:30] I happen to know Sarah was not asked the [17:34] same question. What do you think about [17:36] Ben Armstrong coming back to ministry? [17:40] This is goes to what you're talking [17:42] about, Ron. The juristprudence here is [17:45] not about um uh it's not about restoring [17:49] those who have been emotionally scarred [17:52] by abuse from somebody who represented [17:55] to them Christ who was to them a [17:57] spiritual father who is there's a [17:59] betrayal on such a level that goes so [18:01] deep to the soul and rather than having [18:04] the first question asked why uh what can [18:08] we do to restore you Sarah? What can we [18:11] do to make this community a safe place [18:12] for you to heal Sarah? Instead, it is [18:15] what does coming back to ministry look [18:17] like? Well, why? Well, because he he [18:21] seemed repentant. He seemed repentant. [18:25] And um if you notice who's at that [18:28] table, um you've got Danny and you've [18:31] got Ben and Heather. There's a there's [18:34] somebody else that's missing in this [18:37] great testimony of of reconciliation and [18:40] restoration. Who's missing at that [18:43] table? [18:44] >> Yeah. Well, obviously Sarah is missing [18:46] there. And uh you know, I have a book [18:50] coming out soon called uh When Shepherds [18:53] Pray, P R E Y. And we have a whole [18:56] chapter on restoration. [18:58] And one of the first things I say is why [19:01] is the first question that people ask [19:05] you? You see it all the time. Can he be [19:07] restored to ministry? So, so recently [19:10] there was uh Ted Shuddlesworth Jr. uh [19:14] who is some sort of new prosperity [19:16] preacher. Him and his wife have a [19:17] congregation and he has uh I don't know [19:21] if it was with somebody in the [19:22] congregation, but he's he's had a moral [19:24] failure, committed uh some level of [19:26] adulter adultery. Um and in the very [19:31] first article, the very first uh um [19:33] response from him and his wife is, [19:35] "Yeah, we hope he'll be back, you know, [19:38] and in the meantime, you know, the wife [19:40] is going to run the church." It's like [19:41] the ministry must go on at all cost. And [19:45] that is deeply concerning. That's what [19:47] what Danny is asking, you know, Ben, [19:49] what does ministry why are you even [19:51] talking about that? Let's just talk [19:53] about actually Ben has the better [19:57] response. My I have no ministry if I [19:59] don't have my wife and kids. That's what [20:01] they should be talking about. Not a [20:03] restoration ministry. But you're right. [20:05] There's somebody who isn't there because [20:07] she is gone. For some weird reason in [20:10] that video, Danny represents Sarah as [20:14] still being a part of the community. [20:16] Now, I don't know if he is lying or if [20:19] he just doesn't know, but she is long [20:21] gone. She stayed so it happened in I [20:24] think 2009. She stayed around for I [20:26] think about a year and then she's gone. [20:29] And then here this video is made I think [20:31] in 2018. Um this is 7 years after she [20:36] left. And he presents her as still part [20:39] of the community. The last place she was [20:41] was the the defiantly working in the [20:44] coffee shop saying I'm not going to [20:46] disappear. I'm going to be here. You're [20:48] going to have to deal with me. You're [20:49] going to have to see me. But eventually [20:51] she did move on and bless her heart she [20:53] got married, has kids and she she's a [20:56] wonderful young woman. Uh thank God for [20:58] his healing power. But we see who is in [21:01] in there. You have you know you have Ben [21:04] who is being restored and he's getting [21:06] his dream job back without any regard [21:10] for the soul of Sarah. Where is she at [21:13] today in 2018? Well, I guess she's part [21:15] of the community, but she's actually [21:17] not. Nobody's followed up on her. [21:19] Nobody's called her up. Nobody from the [21:22] HR department. I think there's one or [21:24] two people in their, you know, massive [21:27] church and they have two people in the [21:28] HR department. Nobody has checked up on. [21:30] >> So, in the meantime, no, no one's [21:33] checked on on her. Uh, [21:37] Heather says something insightful in [21:40] this in this video [21:42] >> that I think we should we would do well [21:45] to pay attention to. Let Let me show it [21:47] here. lot of good choices in here and it [21:50] takes a lot of good choices. It really [21:52] does. [21:52] >> I I mean I was always [21:55] sometimes questioning in the back of my [21:57] mind as I mentioned Danny had just wrote [21:58] a book about what we're talking about [22:01] the honor. [22:02] >> I had just written Culture of Honor the [22:03] year before I think. [22:04] >> So I thought maybe they were keeping Ben [22:06] along because they were testing out if [22:09] the book really worked. [22:09] >> We're just propping this book up. [22:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. We if we don't do this like [22:14] I just wrote a book that says this [22:16] works. So, so no, but I beyond [22:21] >> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. [22:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. What? There's a there's a [22:28] proverb in there somewhere um about uh [22:31] you know, out of I guess out of the [22:33] abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks [22:34] or uh there's a little bit of truth in [22:36] every uh uh you are the wordsmith, so [22:40] you probably know the the idiom I'm [22:42] thinking of. [22:43] >> Yeah. Uh uh it's I think the one I'm [22:47] thinking of is it's funny because it's [22:48] true. So yeah, they're they're all [22:51] laughing because they know that's what's [22:53] going on. You know, she's she's she's [22:56] clocking the fact that he he is he is [23:01] propping up this idea. This again goes [23:04] to Danny's view of of God. Um God does [23:09] not punish. um humans punish and it is a [23:13] human punishment paradigm that we see [23:15] playing out in the Old Testament. But [23:17] Jesus comes to correct the narrative of [23:20] uh humanity's false view of God. That's [23:23] the that is what he's saying. So um for [23:26] Dany under uh punishment it is upholding [23:29] the rules. Pain is inflicted to uh pose [23:33] worldly sorrow. Um repentance is [23:35] irrelevant. Forgiveness is irrelevant. [23:38] Um it uh punishment requires submission [23:41] of control. Punishment uh requires the [23:44] stopping bad behavior. Um and good [23:47] behavior is compliance and manipulative. [23:50] It punishment is powerless. It's [23:52] fear-driven. It has the goal of [23:55] self-preservation [23:56] and is an external law imposed um on on [24:01] people. Whereas discipline is all about [24:03] restoring the relationship. [24:06] Pain is embraced and it leads to godly [24:08] sorrow. Repentance is essential. [24:10] Forgiveness is essential. It requires [24:12] responsibility and self-control. It [24:14] transforms the heart and good behavior [24:17] is the fruit of love. Um where [24:20] punishment is powerless, discipline is [24:22] powerful. And he kind of um that's his [24:26] language for the locust of control being [24:29] internal versus external. So if you're [24:31] powerless, you have an external locus of [24:33] control. Whereas if you're powerful, you [24:35] have an internal locus of control. Um so [24:38] uh discipline is loved driven. The goal [24:40] of discipline is connection and it is an [24:45] internal law that is coming from the [24:47] heart. Now so here's the question. I [24:52] think that we would we would agree right [24:54] that there is a form of punishment that [24:57] is unhealthy. It is an e it is uh [25:00] imposing upon people a consequences uh [25:04] for their sins whereas where forgiveness [25:07] would bring uh would bring an [25:09] alleviation or an abatement of [25:11] consequences that would otherwise be [25:13] justifiable. I think that I think that [25:16] goes without saying you and I deserve [25:18] hell. We deserve uh eternal uh [25:22] separation from God himself. We deserve [25:24] that. But because of God's mercy, he [25:27] took upon himself the punishment for our [25:30] sins. You know, tipping my hand here, I [25:33] believe in penal substitutionary [25:34] atonement. Um like he bore in himself [25:38] the consequence for our sins. The one [25:40] who would be our judge bore our took our [25:44] sentence and in so doing he gave us [25:47] righteousness. He gave us his life. So [25:49] we believe that. We're not in any way [25:51] contradicting that. The problem is that [25:54] when we take this um when we take this [25:58] very narrow view of what punishment is [26:01] versus discipline [26:03] um we and we say that God has never been [26:06] a punisher. [26:07] Um we make mince meat out of the Bible. [26:12] And uh so when when God says of himself, [26:17] he proclaims his name to Moses. This is [26:20] God's introduction of his of his core [26:24] attributes, his very nature to Moses, [26:27] the the covenant mediator, the one who [26:30] is really truly introducing Yahweh to [26:33] humanity through the people of Israel. [26:35] Um, he has this this moment where the [26:38] Lord is is [26:41] for really for the first time telling us [26:44] who he is. and he passes by uh Moses and [26:50] he shows him his goodness and he [26:52] proclaims his name which is his [26:55] essential nature his his essential [26:56] attributes his character who he really [26:58] is to to Moses and he says this the Lord [27:02] this is from Exodus 34 6 and 7 the Lord [27:06] passed before him and proclaimed the [27:08] Lord the Lord a God merciful and [27:11] gracious slow to anger and abounding in [27:14] steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping [27:18] steadfast love for thousands, forgiving [27:21] iniquity and transgression and sin. So, [27:25] we see all of that like the the merciful [27:27] God has always been there. He doesn't [27:30] change natures from one covenant to the [27:32] next. um but who will by no means clear [27:36] the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the [27:39] fathers on the children and the [27:41] children's children to the third and the [27:43] fourth generation. And so um visit in [27:47] the sense that's used here is an idiom [27:49] for to to punish. [27:51] >> Well um actually if you look at the NIV [27:54] the NIV says yet he does not leave the [27:56] guilty unpunished. He punishes the [28:00] children and their children for the sin [28:02] of the parents. So yes, you're right. [28:04] The word visit there could just as well [28:06] be translated punished. [28:08] >> Yeah. So the idea here is that it is [28:11] God's justice in the form of punishment [28:14] is presented as being intrinsic to his [28:17] nature. It was a declaration of his [28:21] name. And so uh I want to read maybe [28:24] just a a couple of quotes from some [28:27] commentaries. This is from the New [28:28] American commentary uh by Stuart Douglas [28:32] on Exodus. God then issued a corrective [28:36] against the natural human tendency to [28:39] accept grace on the assumption that [28:41] because an infinite God can produce an [28:44] infinite amount of grace, sin has no [28:46] significant consequence. This corrective [28:49] is introduced simply by the normal [28:51] Hebrew word for and which the NIV [28:54] justifiably translates as yet. But which [28:58] is not a strong adversative word. [29:01] Perhaps an even more revealing even if [29:04] uh tendentious translation would be [29:06] something like forgiving wickedness, [29:09] rebellion and sin and at the same time [29:12] uh not letting anybody off, making sure [29:15] that the guilty get what they deserve. [29:19] So God is merciful and an avenger. He is [29:23] a merciful God and a punishing God. He [29:26] is a just God. And um this this makes [29:29] absolutely perfect sense to anybody who [29:32] has undergone severe victimization. I [29:35] think everybody wants God to be all [29:37] mercy all the time until somebody [29:40] severely violates a family member of [29:42] theirs. And then something on the inside [29:45] of them, this this recognition of uh [29:49] this basic human moral intuition when we [29:52] realize that uh if somebody has uh [29:54] committed rape and then murder and then [29:57] the judge says, you know what, I'll [29:58] forgive you. You know, I can tell you're [30:01] totally reformed. You're never going to [30:02] do this again. And let's say he knows [30:04] with perfect knowledge the guy's never [30:06] going to do it again and he's totally [30:08] reformed. And so therefore, punishment [30:10] is unnecessary because all we need is [30:12] restorative justice. All we need is [30:14] somebody to just be totally reformed and [30:16] then and then we're good. Um we would in [30:19] instinctively have this righteous outcry [30:23] to say that is wrong. Why? Because when [30:27] we recognize that punishment for the [30:30] guilty is is just, we are uh we have an [30:34] an instinctive moral intuition [30:38] that that is what is right. [30:40] >> And what if the murdered person was a [30:42] family member, a loved one, someone that [30:44] you deeply cared about? They're gone [30:46] from your life. Uh yes, you would assume [30:50] that there would be justice and you [30:51] would call it injustice if the judge [30:53] said, "You know what? He's he he really [30:56] gets it. He really gets it that he [30:58] should not have murdered your wife or [31:00] your daughter or your friend. So, we're [31:02] going to we're going to let him go. You [31:04] know, um it's again, it's not that we're [31:08] we do get the difference between diff uh [31:10] discipline and punishment. And those [31:12] words can be interchangeable [31:14] interchangeable. I could say to my child [31:16] uh who's my three children in their 30s [31:19] but when they were younger I could say [31:21] to them you know if you do that you're [31:23] going to be punished if you do that [31:25] you're going to be disciplined they [31:27] understood those words to mean the same [31:29] thing but there is a difference if I [31:32] walk in the house and I catch one of my [31:35] children doing something they shouldn't [31:36] do and I just fly off the handle and I [31:38] rip my belt out and I just start hitting [31:40] them violently and and we want to call [31:43] that punishment. Well that's bad. We all [31:45] agree that that is not constructive. [31:47] That is not going to help them uh in any [31:49] way. Now, if I sit down with my child [31:51] and I say, you know what, here's what [31:54] you did that is wrong. Let me explain to [31:56] you why it was wrong. And there is going [31:57] to be a consequence and you're going to [31:59] have to, you know, I'm going to take [32:00] away your your phone or your TV [32:03] privileges or whatever for, you know, 7 [32:06] days and uh and then after seven days, [32:08] we're going to have another talk. Okay. [32:10] Yeah, that's that's a better way to go [32:12] about it. But let's not pretend that God [32:15] does not punish. We see in the the very [32:19] first story in the Bible is these two [32:22] people, Adam and Eve, disobey God, and [32:26] as a result, there's a huge consequence. [32:28] Sin enters into the world. Now, Danny [32:31] would say, "Yeah, that God didn't punish [32:33] them. They're just experiencing the [32:34] consequences of sin." And and then he [32:37] does a similar thing with Cain and Abel. [32:39] Cain kills his brother and um no I look [32:43] at that as God punishing Cain and God [32:46] punished Adam and Eve for their sin. And [32:48] yes, Jesus comes later and redeems it. [32:51] But one of the great examples is King [32:53] David. You know, if I had a nickel for [32:57] every time somebody fell into sin and [33:00] people say, "Well, well, what about King [33:02] David? You know, God restored him." You [33:04] know, I in in my book that's coming out, [33:07] we call it the King David deal. You [33:09] don't want the King David deal. Nobody [33:11] should want anybody who says, "I can be [33:14] restored to ministry because David was [33:16] restored to ministry." They have no idea [33:19] what they're saying because David [33:21] suffered even after he really, really [33:25] repented. In fact, he repented so good [33:28] that it's recorded in one of the most [33:30] famous Psalms in world history. Psalm [33:32] 51. Create in me a clean heart, oh God. [33:35] Keith Green wrote a beautiful song about [33:37] it. I mean the everybody knows Psalm 51. [33:41] Yet the son died [33:44] >> and then one of his other sons raped his [33:48] daughter and then the the his halfsister [33:52] and then Absson kills Amnan his half [33:54] brother because uh Tamar was his uh full [33:58] sister and then he gets banished from [34:00] the kingdom. He comes back but then he [34:01] tries to steal the kingdom. It's a I [34:05] hate to say use the word, but it's a [34:06] real mess for David. You do not want the [34:09] King David deal because he suffered [34:11] greatly. And and by the way, David's sin [34:15] wasn't just what he did with Basheba. It [34:17] wasn't even just what he did with Uriah. [34:19] There was a bunch of other men that went [34:21] with her with Uriah to the Wallace city [34:24] who also got killed. David had a lot of [34:27] blood on his hands and God punished him. [34:31] >> Yeah. If let's look at 2 Samuel 12 7-14 [34:36] and we see exactly God's response to [34:40] David's repentance. Um Nathan said to [34:42] David, "You are the man." Um you know, [34:45] you're the man, David. Thus says the [34:48] Lord, the God of Israel. I anointed you [34:51] king over Israel, and I delivered you [34:53] out of the hand of Saul. And I gave you [34:55] your master's house and your master's [34:57] wives into your arms, and gave you the [35:00] house of Israel and of Judah. And if [35:03] this were too little, I would add to you [35:05] as much more. Why have you despised the [35:08] word of the Lord to do what is evil in [35:10] his sight? You have struck down Uriah [35:12] the Hitittite with the sword, and have [35:14] taken his wife to be your wife, and have [35:16] killed him with the sword of the [35:18] Ammonites. Now therefore, the sword [35:21] shall never depart from your house [35:23] because you have despised me and have [35:25] taken the wife of Uriah the Hitittite to [35:27] be your wife. Thus says the Lord, [35:30] "Behold, I will raise up evil against [35:32] you out of your own house. And I will [35:34] take your wives before your eyes and [35:35] give them to your neighbor, and he shall [35:38] lie with your wives in the sight of this [35:40] son. For you did it secretly, but I will [35:43] do this thing before all Israel and [35:45] before the son." David said to Nathan, [35:47] "I have sinned against the Lord." And [35:49] Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has [35:53] put away your sin. You shall not die." [35:57] So there's the there's the the [36:00] forgiveness that is extended to David, [36:02] but the consequences of his sin was not [36:05] removed. Look at verse 14. Nevertheless, [36:08] because by this deed you have utterly [36:10] scorned the Lord, the child who is born [36:13] to you shall die. [36:16] Unpunishable. [36:19] Yeah. And if you look at the Israelites [36:22] who, you know, they they can't find [36:25] Moses. He's been gone for, you know, [36:28] almost 40 days. And they build a golden [36:29] calf and a a lot of is a lot of [36:32] Israelites died after that. Then there's [36:34] numbers 25 famous story where uh Phineas [36:38] the grandson of Aaron uh comes into the [36:40] camp and sees uh Omry and Kaspi a Midian [36:44] woman. They're together doing what you [36:46] shouldn't do and he he kills both of [36:49] them which stops the plague. But I think [36:51] it was 23,000 people had already died [36:54] because of the plague that God visited [36:57] visited there's that word again upon the [36:59] Israelites because of their sin. So to [37:03] to reinvent God as a non-punisher that [37:06] he never punishes um I don't think is an [37:09] honest reading of scripture. Now what [37:11] what someone might say particularly if [37:14] you come from the idea that you know you [37:16] know if if anything contradicts Jesus [37:19] then then you have every right to [37:20] question it. Someone might say well if [37:23] in the New Testament you know things [37:25] change because it's a new God and it's a [37:27] everything's new but and and nobody gets [37:29] punished. How would you respond to that? [37:33] >> Yeah. Um, I would just ask Ananas and [37:36] Safh what they think about it. [37:39] >> Well, unfortunately, they can't answer [37:40] because they got punished. [37:42] >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Or Jezebel from uh from [37:47] Revelation 3 or um you know, you see God [37:51] exacting punishment. I would say I I [37:54] would also just point to a major [37:56] theological issue with that is that um [37:59] when God says um it is uh vengeance is [38:03] mine says the lord I will repay he's [38:06] making a statement about his nature and [38:08] who he is and what he will do that he [38:11] hasn't read un he hasn't read [38:13] unpunishable and needs to go through [38:15] some counseling get some inner healing [38:18] >> because [38:18] >> well the the reality is the only hope we [38:21] have is the wrath of God, the only [38:23] reason I can forgive is because I trust [38:26] that God is just. The The reason that we [38:29] can let go of vengeance ourselves is is [38:32] because we can say, "God, in your hands [38:36] is justice. You You can judge and you [38:39] will judge rightly." Now, Danny Silk [38:41] says this. Um he he paints God not as an [38:45] active punisher but as somebody who [38:47] passively allows somebody who is [38:49] unrepentant to encounter the [38:51] consequences of their own decisions. [38:54] That's how he paints hell. Hell is just [38:56] that's what you chose. You chose to go [38:58] away from God. And um it's not God [39:01] actively punishing you from your sins. [39:03] It's just God allowing the natural [39:05] consequences of your sins to be visited [39:07] upon you. He's just sort of like well [39:10] whatever. He removes his hand. So this [39:11] is his quote. Remember God's wrath and [39:14] punishment are always a matter always a [39:18] matter of him removing his hand and [39:20] honoring our sinful choices and their [39:24] consequences. So [39:25] >> yeah, let me just go ahead. Let me just [39:28] comment on that real quick because I I [39:30] remember uh back in Bible school that uh [39:32] our Old Testament professor who was a [39:36] scholar in ancient Semitic languages [39:38] particularly Hebrew and he would say [39:40] that when people claim that the God of [39:43] the Bible is he doesn't judge he just he [39:46] just he allows you to be he allows Satan [39:49] in. He first of all there really isn't a [39:51] whole lot of difference because if he [39:53] could present prevent it and yet he [39:55] doesn't um then then he is actively [39:58] allowing it. But there the Hebrew does [40:00] not say that this idea that that hell [40:03] hell is just what you make it. Hell is [40:06] you know you chose to allow God to [40:08] remove his hand. No, hell is an active [40:12] uh action on behalf of God to [40:15] disobedience just as salvation is. Just [40:18] as granting forgiveness is, it is an [40:20] action on the part of a holy God. [40:24] >> Yeah. And it is good. It it is an active [40:27] good. We we would say that if if we all [40:32] adopted this this sort of juristprudence [40:34] that you know to um to be the agent of [40:39] punishment is is to be part of the [40:43] punishment paradigm for somebody who's [40:45] unrepentant. [40:46] um like that's not what we do. Instead, [40:49] we just allow the natural consequences [40:52] uh of somebody's actions to befall them. [40:55] Um how can we justify the imprisonment [40:58] of people by the state? Um you know, for [41:02] somebody who's part of like this N sort [41:05] of dominionist uh attitude that was [41:08] like, hey, this is the new testament [41:11] juristprudence. what we need to do is [41:13] apply this this new covenant framework [41:16] to all the seven mountains of influence [41:19] and then we were god forbid to get our [41:22] hands on that government mountain um and [41:25] then start start to apply this this same [41:28] juristprudence suddenly the unpunishable [41:31] uh attitude towards the Ben Armstrongs [41:34] and the Jonathan Welton's would be [41:36] applied to civil government as well and [41:39] here's the thing if it's not good for [41:40] civil government It's not good for [41:42] church government because good is good. [41:45] I I like the context doesn't change the [41:49] the fundamental nature of what is good. [41:52] We can't say punishment is good for the [41:54] government to do but it's bad for the [41:55] church to do. No, good is good. And what [42:00] does the Bible say about the the [42:02] authorities? It says, "The authorities [42:04] that exist, Romans 13, uh, the ex [42:07] authorities that exist have been [42:10] established by God." That that that [42:13] leads me to believe that they're doing [42:15] what God wants them to do. They're not [42:17] doing what he doesn't want them to do. [42:18] And and what is that? Consequently, [42:20] whoever rebelss against the authority, [42:23] meaning the government, is rebelling [42:25] against what God has instituted. and [42:27] those who do so will bring judgment on [42:31] themselves. For rulers hold no terror [42:34] for those who do right, but for those [42:35] who do wrong. Do you want to be free [42:37] from fear of the one in authority? Then [42:39] do what is right, and you will be [42:40] commended. For the one in authority is [42:43] God's servant for you, for your good, [42:47] for your good, for the good of society. [42:50] But if you do wrong, be afraid. For the [42:52] rulers do not bear the sword for no [42:56] reason. Get ready. They are God's [42:59] servants. Agents of wrath. God's [43:01] servants. Agents of wrath. God's [43:04] servants. Not Satan's servants. Agents [43:06] of wrath to bring [43:09] punishment on the wrongdoer. So now this [43:12] idea that that the secular government is [43:15] this this evil thing that God is [43:18] tolerating and somehow through some [43:20] mystical way he's using them. Um that [43:24] doesn't seem what to to be what Paul is [43:25] saying here. Yes, secular governments [43:27] can be evil and they can be noble. Uh [43:30] but he's that but the principle is noble [43:33] and the principle is that you need [43:35] governments in society so that you can [43:38] have a proper functioning society. And [43:40] part of their job is to punish criminal [43:43] criminal activity. Any society that says [43:47] we're not going to punish criminal [43:49] activity if the person says sorry uh is [43:52] not going to have a a great society. And [43:57] if we say as New Testament leaders and [43:59] elders, well, that's the sec secular [44:02] government. Let them do what God's [44:03] called them to do. But we as leaders, we [44:05] know better. See, here's what happens. [44:07] That's where you get to taking a pet and [44:10] saying, you know, we're not going to [44:12] report you to the authorities and ruin [44:14] your whole life. You're just 22 years [44:16] old, you know, and yes, you did this to [44:19] a three-year-old and that was bad and [44:21] you also did it to a 5-year-old and that [44:22] was really bad, but we're going to work [44:24] with you. No, you report them to the [44:27] authorities. And the best, if you really [44:29] care about that person and you care [44:31] about your congregation, then the grace [44:33] of God for them is going through the [44:36] authorities and being, dare I say, [44:39] punished. [44:42] Yeah. Yeah. I I I want to give I want to [44:46] be fair in my in my criticism here. Um, [44:49] Danny, I think would agree with [44:52] everything that we just said, but also [44:55] disagree in the same book. So, in page [44:59] 180, [45:00] >> and that's why it's confusing. That's [45:01] why it's confusing because you're [45:02] reading the book and you're going, [45:03] "Well, yeah, I I kind of see that, but [45:05] then the conclusion is the concerning [45:07] part." [45:08] >> Exactly. So, he says in in page 189, [45:12] "Our job as shepherds is to protect [45:14] innocent people from harm." Amen. Like [45:17] parents, we feel responsible if one of [45:20] our kids gets hurt on our watch. So when [45:23] we perceive a threat, we confront and [45:25] extract uh it as quickly as we can. [45:29] However, we must remember that the mess [45:32] maker there there's that word again is [45:35] also one of our kids. When leaders heir [45:38] on the side of protecting the group [45:41] against the messmaker without being able [45:44] to see that the person is repenting, [45:47] they can end up punishing the messmaker [45:51] and cutting them off from [45:53] reconciliation. [45:55] Um there we see there we see it right. [45:59] It's like here he recognizes the [46:02] responsibility of a pastor of a shepherd [46:04] to protect the community. But if we that [46:07] so that was page 189. If we just go a [46:09] few pages back in page 129, he says, [46:14] "I'm not here to try to protect other [46:17] people from you." And I think at at its [46:20] core, what we see here is a failure of [46:23] discernment, a failure to recognize when [46:26] there are wolves, a failure to recognize [46:29] when there's true repentance versus faux [46:31] repentance. And then and then finally a [46:34] failure to recognize when it doesn't [46:37] actually matter whether it is true [46:39] repentance versus faux repentance. I'll [46:42] I'll say this. There's this um you know [46:45] theological debate that people are [46:46] having right now um about whether people [46:51] should uh whether it's biblical that [46:53] somebody could be restored to ministry [46:56] uh versus not restored to ministry. Is [46:58] it biblical to say somebody is [47:00] permanently disqualified from ministry? [47:02] If in fact um the blood of Jesus [47:05] cleanses us from all unrighteousness and [47:07] and we are forgiven. If somebody is [47:09] totally forgiven and they have been [47:12] transformed, who's anybody to say, this [47:13] is the argument that Danny makes in this [47:15] book. Who's anybody to say that they [47:17] can't be um restored back to their uh um [47:23] uh their their position [47:25] >> condition? [47:26] >> Yeah. So for instance uh uh Danny says [47:30] this people are naturally wary that by [47:33] the way this is page 199 of the book. [47:35] People are naturally wary about a fallen [47:38] leader returning to a position of [47:39] influence especially once they find out [47:42] that he is a repeat offender. Yeah duh. [47:46] However often this weariness is an [47:49] expression of the punishment paradigm. [47:51] The reality is that many leaders today [47:53] are repeat offenders without losing [47:55] their position. They are just successful [47:57] in hiding their sin or sinning in an [47:59] acceptable way. For some reason, the [48:01] sins of fear, anger, self-preservation, [48:04] idolatry, gluttony, lust, and pride [48:07] often get a pass in certain leaders. The [48:09] sheer number of leaders regularly using [48:12] porn in this present generation is [48:14] staggering. But if we don't know about [48:16] it or we struggle with the same things [48:19] ourselves, we continue to trust in power [48:22] and follow these broken leaders. Ron, [48:26] tell me what you think about that. [48:28] >> Uh, it's a horrible argument. It's it's [48:30] an absurd argument. What he's saying is [48:32] that because some people don't get [48:34] caught, we shouldn't be too hard on [48:36] people who do get caught. Um, that's [48:39] like saying, um, there's a guy that has [48:42] been shoplifting from my local grocery [48:44] store and he's just really, really good [48:46] at it and we can't figure out who he is. [48:48] We don't know his identity. And then I [48:49] go in there and I take a loaf of bread [48:52] and I get caught and I say, "Whoa, wait [48:56] a minute. There's this other guy out [48:57] there that you guys can't catch, so you [48:59] got to let me go, too." [49:01] So what what Danny seems to be saying is [49:03] that if if we can't hold everybody [49:06] accountable that we don't know about who [49:08] who might be committing adultery, who [49:10] might be abusing the sheep, who might be [49:12] abusing children, then it just doesn't [49:15] make sense. It's it's a really bad [49:17] argument. And I I remember reading that [49:19] same thing and underlining it myself. [49:21] But I want to go back a little bit [49:22] further to what you said. Um because [49:25] somebody could say, "Well, what's the [49:27] big deal about, you know, uh yeah, I do [49:30] have to protect my kids and you know [49:34] what if the thing that the person did to [49:36] did against them wasn't really that big [49:38] of a deal? What if it was a minor issue? [49:40] They gossiped about them and then they [49:42] apologized. Yeah, we want them to be [49:44] reconciled and and to grow in that." [49:47] That's not what the book is about. The [49:49] book has two case studies in it. One is [49:52] Ben Armstrong, the other one is Jonathan [49:55] Welton. Uh with Ben, they called it an [49:57] affair, but then they find out Danny [50:00] allegedly finds out in the book, and I [50:02] say allegedly because some people are [50:04] saying that the Bethl leaders knew about [50:06] his first quote unquote affair. But in [50:10] the book, he finds out, oh, 12 years [50:12] earlier when you first got married, you [50:15] also committed adultery. And what does [50:18] he say? We hit pay dirt. When we you hit [50:21] pay like like he's so excited about [50:23] getting that piece of information, it [50:26] doesn't enter his mind how destructive [50:29] adultery is. What what what the pain, [50:32] you know, Heather decided to uh uh push [50:34] it under the carpet, sweep it under the [50:36] carpet, and they just pretended. Yeah, [50:38] that is just way too simplistic to to uh [50:41] categorize or explain the pain of [50:45] betrayal the way he did. So, I want to [50:48] be clear, the sin he is focusing on in [50:52] the book is the sin of adultery and and [50:56] clergy sexual abuse. We we now know, [50:59] maybe he didn't know, but we know now [51:02] that what Ben did would be classified [51:05] because we I believe Sarah, this is my [51:07] opinion based on believing Sarah's [51:10] testimony and believing Roz's testimony, [51:12] what they explained would be classified [51:14] as grooming. um with Jonathan Welton. [51:18] The first uh situation that he had, and [51:20] we'll get into that later, was with [51:22] somebody under his authority. And then [51:24] he did other very uncomfortable things [51:27] with other women who were under his [51:29] authority and and to men as well, not [51:31] necessarily sexual, but but but [51:33] manipulative. So [51:36] that's what the book is about. So yeah, [51:39] let me be real clear. If there is [51:42] somebody who is going to sexually abuse [51:45] my children, you better believe I'm [51:47] going to keep them out of my house. I'm [51:49] not going to say, "Well, I love the mess [51:51] maker, too." No, if you're a mess maker, [51:54] stay away from my house. Stay away from [51:56] my church. My job is, yes, there is [51:59] redemption. And we believe in that. But [52:01] our primary calling, what do they call [52:04] us? What is another word for pastor? I [52:07] can't remember. Starts with an S. [52:11] I think it I think you're thinking of [52:13] shepherd. [52:13] >> Shepherd. Thank you so much. Shepherd. [52:16] Shepherd. And they you know the the the [52:18] the [52:20] responsibility of the shepherd is not to [52:22] the wolves. It is not to the lions. It [52:26] is to protect the sheep. And my job as a [52:29] shepherd is not to protect my buddy who [52:32] committed CSA. And as you know, I was a [52:35] sadly involved in a situation where [52:37] somebody very dear and close to me uh [52:41] committed some level of CSA and and it [52:44] was, you know, I had to deal with it. I [52:46] had to take the side of the victim. Why? [52:49] Because that's what a shepherd is [52:50] supposed to do. He does not cover for [52:52] his ministry buddies. And I think that's [52:54] the problem we're seeing in places like [52:56] Bethl where they covered for Shawn BS [52:58] for all these years where they cover for [53:00] each other. And and and I really believe [53:04] why it's so important that we're talking [53:06] about this right now is because John [53:09] Mark, I think it's far worse than we [53:11] ever imagined. If if you know, you and I [53:14] both had similar visions. You know, for [53:16] me it was in 2020. I don't know when you [53:18] had yours, but but they both had to do [53:21] 2021, but they both had to do with uh [53:25] destruction coming upon the church at [53:27] the by the hand of God, at least in my [53:29] vision. um punishing sin within the [53:33] leadership. And I just if you had told [53:36] me back then that it was as bad it w as [53:38] it is. I mean Mike Bickl was my he was [53:42] my in the charismatic circus I could [53:45] always say but Mike Bickle love that guy [53:48] you know good good solid. So [53:52] make no mistake the issue that Danny is [53:55] exc saying saying is not that big of a [53:56] deal in his book or I don't want to put [53:58] words in his mouth. uh that he is [54:01] referring to as the messmaker that we [54:03] have a responsibility to is somebody who [54:05] is feeding on the sheep. Mhm. Right. And [54:10] as you said the part of the lack of [54:16] wisdom that we see present in this book [54:19] is nobody is ever a wolf. [54:21] As long as they say sorry, there's [54:24] nobody's ever a wolf. He says this, the [54:26] mess maker is also one of our kids. [54:28] Well, what if they're not? [54:30] >> What if they're not? [54:32] >> So, the the other thing here is it's not [54:34] just about personal sins. I mean, in the [54:36] quote that we read earlier, he said um [54:39] he said this, I'll I'll read it again. [54:41] For some reason, the sins of fear, [54:43] anger, self-preservation, idolatry, [54:45] gluttony, lust, and pride often get a [54:47] pass in certain leaders. Well, the sin [54:50] of fear, anger, self-preservation, [54:52] idolatry, a lot of times those uh those [54:55] sins can be personal sins where there is [54:57] not a victim. But when you have abused [55:00] your position of authority to sec take [55:03] advantage of somebody under your [55:05] spiritual care, you have violated trust [55:08] on such a level that to reinstate that [55:11] person back into ministry is to gamble [55:14] with the souls and the lives of God's [55:16] people. It is evil. It is not it it is [55:20] less than wise. It is it is wrong to do [55:23] that. And to say something like, well, [55:26] you don't know that person's heart, [55:27] right? Um, you don't know whether or not [55:29] they're actually repentant. Um, true. We [55:33] don't know. Maybe [55:34] >> we heir we heir on the side of [55:37] protecting the sheep, not the messmaker. [55:41] >> That's right. [55:43] Yeah. Right. I like the reality is we [55:46] don't we don't know people's hearts. We [55:48] can't tell when somebody we can't always [55:50] tell when somebody is truly repentant. [55:52] So Danny is simultaneously trying to [55:56] play the role of counselor with this [55:58] Rogerian unconditional positive regard [56:01] that is meant to be therapeutic to the [56:04] person that he's he's in front of. And [56:06] that's important for somebody who needs [56:07] a counselor. But if that counselor, that [56:10] therapist also has the duty of [56:13] protecting the community, then they are [56:16] in two roles that are actually at cross [56:18] purposes with each other. And so this is [56:22] a conflict of interest. And we see that [56:24] that conflict of interest plays out in [56:28] both of the cases that that Danny Silk [56:32] lays out to support the ideas of his [56:34] book. Um, and but so if we have this [56:39] idea that well this mess maker is one of [56:42] our kids too, let's compare that with [56:46] God's heart. who God is there anybody [56:49] that God does not love is there is there [56:51] anybody that God is not uh lord over is [56:55] not creator over uh but let's look at [56:58] his heart from uh Matthew chap 24 uh 45- [57:04] 51 who then is the faithful and wise [57:08] servant whom his master has set over his [57:10] households to give them their food at [57:12] the proper time blessed is that servant [57:15] whom his master will find So doing when [57:17] he comes, truly I say to you, he will [57:21] set him over all his possessions. But if [57:24] that wicked servant says to himself, "My [57:26] master is delayed," and begins to beat [57:28] his fellow servants and eats and drinks [57:30] with drunkards, the master of that [57:32] servant will come on a day when he does [57:35] not expect him and at an hour he does [57:38] not know and will restore him in a [57:40] spirit of gentleness like one of his no [57:43] will cut him in pieces and put him with [57:46] the hypocrites in that place where there [57:48] will be weeping and nashing of teeth. [57:52] This is God's heart for protecting his [57:56] people that he would he would exact [57:59] punishment. [58:01] Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. He [58:04] will exact punishment on those leaders [58:06] who abuse their position of authority in [58:08] order to take advantage o of those who [58:11] are underneath them. We see the same uh [58:15] uh attitude in Ezekiel 34. But uh Ron, [58:19] why don't you share a comment? I was I [58:20] was that was going to be my comment is [58:22] that take a look at Ezekiel 34 where you [58:26] know God you know pulls no pulls pulls [58:28] no punches when it comes to his anger at [58:31] the shepherds of Israel because they're [58:33] feasting on the sheep. Now let's just [58:36] suppose because again I think people who [58:38] if they if they're seeing us for the [58:40] first time they might think that we're [58:41] being a bit harsh. We we do care for the [58:44] Ben Armstrongs of this world and for the [58:45] Jonathan Weltons and we do want them to [58:47] repent and we do want them to be [58:49] restored 100% to Jesus. We we love them. [58:54] We care for them. We don't think that [58:55] they should be if they are professing [58:58] repentance and walking through the [58:59] steps. Then they they have a place in [59:01] the New Testament church to be loved, to [59:04] be part of the community. What we're [59:06] saying is this is that you prioritize [59:10] the sheep over a broken shepherd, over a [59:14] shepherd who is even if he fell and [59:16] acted like a wolf, even if it was only [59:18] one time, you prioritize the sheep. And [59:22] so in the in the case of Ben Ben [59:24] Armstrong and Sarah, the very fact that [59:27] they stayed in the same congregation, I [59:30] mean that is that is malpractice as as [59:33] pastoral malpractice because what they [59:36] should have done is they should have sat [59:37] down with Sarah. First of all, they [59:39] should have discerned it that it was not [59:42] an affair. They're simply now I I [59:45] believe she has said that she sat down [59:46] with them. She told them what happened. [59:48] Um and and we've all heard her story by [59:50] now. I mean, it's very clear that he [59:53] acted upon her and she froze. And then [59:55] he acted upon her a second time. Uh, [59:58] this time he got her drunk and then [60:00] tried to pull her into a bedroom where I [60:02] can only assume that he wanted to have [60:05] sexual relations with her and she said [60:07] no. And and he still poured her. I mean, [60:10] it's criminal what he did. He still [60:12] after saying no, he pulled her into the [60:14] bedroom. And again, it didn't go as far [60:16] as as uh intercourse, but it's horrible [60:20] behavior. And they just left the two of [60:22] them in the same congregation. Again, I [60:24] don't know exactly how much they knew. I [60:26] know that she had to walk into a room in [60:28] Bethl. If you're listening, boy, you [60:31] need to address this. She walked into a [60:33] room with six to eight men who then [60:37] asked her what happened. Not one of them [60:40] could bring their wife in. They couldn't [60:41] have a a female psychologist, an [60:43] advocate, somebody there to hold her [60:45] hand to give her some tissues, but just [60:48] a group of men asking her about [60:51] something just so intimate and horrible [60:54] and traumatic in her life. So, what you [60:56] should have done is said, "Hey, Ben, we [61:00] love you. We care for you. We're not [61:02] going to throw you out, but you can no [61:04] longer be in this congregation. We we [61:07] have other Bethl congregations and we're [61:09] going to send you to to one of our other [61:11] ones. And and we're going to get you the [61:13] care that you need to restore you as a [61:15] man, as a person, as a believer. But [61:18] you, this poor girl is working in the [61:20] coffee shop. And Bennis says he's [61:22] bemoning. Yeah, I had to do my mentoring [61:25] there. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. [61:28] There's nobody, no other place in the [61:30] universe that you could have done [61:31] mentoring with. And and kind of shocking [61:35] that you're even doing mentoring at that [61:36] point. I don't know how long that is. [61:38] >> Exactly. [61:39] >> Exactly. [61:39] >> But but no, you did not have to use the [61:43] coffee shop. God bless Sarah for being [61:45] basically saying, "I'm not going to [61:47] disappear. I am going to take this job [61:49] in the coffee shop. You're not going to [61:50] get rid of me." And and again, I have to [61:53] go back and listen to the interview with [61:56] Danny, but I seem to remember him kind [61:58] of bemoning that he had to see her when [62:01] when he would do mentoring in the coffee [62:04] shop. Yeah. Um, [62:08] exactly right. Exactly right. [62:11] What's interesting to me is that we [62:13] don't seem to have these theological [62:16] debates about restoration because people [62:19] people are like, "Well, if they if [62:21] you're forgiven, let's just put them [62:22] right back in ministry." We don't have [62:24] those same theological debates about [62:26] restoring uh child abusers to nursery [62:29] ministry. I I wonder why that is. No [62:32] one's asking for the Bible verse that [62:34] says, "Well, what Bible verse are you [62:35] leaning upon?" you know, uh, Jonathan [62:38] Welton and and, uh, Joel Richardson had [62:40] a text exchange that Joel published, uh, [62:43] where Joel says, um, you know, you're [62:46] you're permanently disqualified from [62:48] ministry. Jonathan Welton says, well, [62:50] you know, what verse uh, are you what [62:53] verse are you using to create that [62:55] theology for yourself is the is the [62:57] >> I would have responded with uh, 1 [62:59] Corinthians 9:27 where Paul says uh, uh, [63:04] I discipline my body. I beat it daily, [63:07] meaning that he he controls his [63:09] appetites, which would include food and [63:12] sex and things like that. I beat my body [63:16] daily and discipline it, lest after I [63:20] have preached to others, I myself become [63:24] disqualified. So scholars argue on [63:28] exactly what he means by disqualified. [63:30] You know, for me, he's talking about [63:32] preaching. I discipline my body because [63:35] if I don't after I preach I will be [63:38] disqualified. So I would say that what [63:40] Paul is saying that there in in 1 [63:42] Corinthians 9, let me finish my thought. [63:44] I'm I'm I'm arguing with myself. In 1 [63:47] Corinthians 9, [63:50] um he clearly says that he can be [63:52] disqualified. Uh we're not quite sure [63:56] what he's talking about in terms of what [63:58] actions they would be. actions that [64:00] prioritize his flesh over his spirit. So [64:03] in 1 Corinthians 6 he is connecting [64:06] these ideas of not disciplining your [64:08] appetites with the uh the horrendousness [64:11] of sexual sin. He says you say the food [64:14] for stomach and the stomach for food and [64:16] God will destroy them both. The body [64:18] however is not meant for sexual [64:20] immorality but for the Lord and the Lord [64:23] for the body but his but by his power [64:26] God raised the Lord from the dead and he [64:28] will also raise us. Do you not know that [64:30] your bodies are members of Christ [64:33] themselves? Shall I take them members of [64:35] Christ and unite them with a prostitute? [64:39] So now he jumps two three chapters later [64:41] and he's talking about not disciplining [64:44] his flesh leading to disqualification. [64:47] So, I do believe there are spiritual uh [64:49] precedents for being disqualified from [64:51] ministry. But again, it goes back to [64:53] what I was saying. [64:54] >> Add on to it. Well, add on to it Paul's [64:57] qualifications for leadership in 1 [64:59] Timothy chapter 3. The saying is [65:00] trustworthy if anyone aspires to the [65:02] office of overseer. He desires a noble [65:04] task. Therefore, an overseer must be [65:07] above reproach. uh the husband of one [65:10] wife, soberminded, self-controlled, [65:13] respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [65:15] not a drug curd, not violent, but [65:17] gentle, not quarrelome, not a lover of [65:18] money. He must manage his own household [65:20] well with all dignity, keeping his [65:23] children submissive. For if someone does [65:25] not know how to manage his own [65:27] household, how will he care for God's [65:29] church? He must not be a recent convert, [65:31] or he may become puffed up with conceit [65:33] and fall into the condemnation of the [65:34] devil. Moreover, he must be well thought [65:37] of by outsiders so that he may not fall [65:41] into disgrace into a snare of the devil. [65:46] So all of these qualifications above [65:48] reproach, husband of one wife, you know, [65:50] temperate, self-controlled, uh like all [65:53] of these things are violated when [65:55] somebody commits clergy sexual abuse. [65:58] Yeah. And again, we we do care for that [66:00] person and we do want to help this [66:02] person. But there is certain circles in [66:04] the body of believers. I think Rick [66:06] Joiner uh espouses a theology or a [66:09] belief or a philosophy that the ultimate [66:12] goal Galatians 6:1 that we restore in [66:14] gentleness those who have fallen into [66:16] sin that that the ultimate goal is to [66:19] get them back into ministry. when we [66:21] have this passion to see a predator or [66:25] someone who has acted as a predator [66:26] restored to ministry. And you know, in [66:28] the case of Rick Joiner and Todd [66:30] Bentley, uh Rick said in his he he wrote [66:33] about this after Todd was exposed, I [66:36] don't know, for the third or fourth time [66:38] back in 2019, he said that I already I [66:41] knew the Lord showed me that that that [66:44] uh Todd would have more problems [66:46] sexually, but the Lord gave him a verse, [66:48] a righteous man falls down seven times, [66:49] but he gets up and he's he's saying, [66:52] "Well, that's Todd. He keeps getting [66:53] up." That is not talking about sexual [66:56] sin. That's about somebody who is doing [66:58] the right thing and gets beat up by life [67:01] and they keep going. They don't stay [67:03] down. They keep going. It is not talking [67:05] about somebody who's perverse, who is [67:07] using prophecy or their their position [67:10] in ministry to get women to take off [67:13] their tops and send them pictures or far [67:16] worse things than that. Because we if [67:19] you take that that idea and you say we [67:24] just got to get him back in ministry [67:26] because he's an evangelist. The call the [67:28] people he's going to reach. Are you not [67:30] worried about all those interns that [67:31] were defiled or or or fans that he uh [67:36] connected with online and got them to do [67:38] unclean things or requested that they [67:41] would do unclean things and then they [67:42] blocked him? How do you think those [67:44] people felt afterwards? Oh my gosh, I [67:46] just connected with Todd Bentley, who I [67:49] just adored and loved as an evangelist, [67:51] and he asked me to do something weird. [67:54] You don't get over that in 10 minutes, [67:56] Rick. And so, you seem to prioritize [68:00] the need for Todd to be back in ministry [68:04] over protecting God's flock. And that's [68:07] why probably, notice everyone I said [68:10] probably, you were being sued right now [68:12] by former minors who were abused in your [68:16] ministry allegedly uh uh because you [68:19] tolerate it. But if we protected the [68:23] sheep and not the mess maker so much, I [68:26] think we would see a lot less sexual [68:29] sin. If we had higher standards on [68:31] restoration to ministry, like for me, [68:34] I'll just tell you right now, if I ever [68:36] cheat on my wife, I'm done. I'm done. [68:38] I'm out of ministry. Not I don't even [68:40] just mean clergy sexual abuse. Any type [68:43] of adulterous behavior, I'm out. I'm [68:44] done. And and that's my standard. If we [68:48] had a standard like that, I think we'd [68:50] see a lot less. But in a lot of these [68:53] circles, [68:55] >> John Mark, I think they wink at it. I [68:57] think you know Rick Joiner said recently [68:59] in a message talking about Bob Jones who [69:02] committed horrific CSA against a mother [69:04] and daughter at the same time. [69:07] He said this is something men do. No, [69:10] it's not. Not men of God. Men of God for [69:13] the most part don't do this. We control. [69:15] Yeah. Listen, I'm attracted to women. [69:17] I'm a man. But we have self-control, [69:21] right? And it is a prerequisite to be an [69:24] elder, to have self-control, to be [69:27] temperate. Self control. By the way, [69:28] what was Paul what was Paul thinking? I [69:30] mean, how dare Paul put such a high [69:32] standard on [69:33] >> what a religious spirit he had. [69:35] >> I know you got to be faithful to your [69:37] wife. Does he does he even know how hard [69:38] I mean, he didn't have a wife, so he [69:40] doesn't know how hard that is, but no, [69:43] that's that's the minimum. The minimum [69:45] is you don't cheat on your wife. [69:47] >> Yeah. It's it's it obviously obviously [69:50] it's absurd um that that we would have [69:55] this but nevertheless people are being [69:57] very pedantic and they're saying well [70:00] what is your biblical justification and [70:03] uh you know though we've given the [70:05] biblical justification I'll even say [70:07] this let's say you disagree with all of [70:09] the the entirety of the biblical case we [70:12] just made let's say that you dis [70:14] disagree with all that you say you know [70:16] what you guys are uh misapplying the [70:19] scriptures and you're you're isogating [70:21] in order to see your your uh priors [70:25] inside of the text and we'll say okay um [70:28] for the sake of argument we'll just [70:30] grant that I think that you're wrong but [70:33] um let's do uh nursery workers now [70:38] um what's your biblical justification [70:40] for not restoring uh child abusers to [70:44] nursery ministry [70:46] >> yeah Do you need a Bible verse for it? [70:49] No. Obviously, it's absurd to say that [70:52] you don't need [70:53] >> I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to [70:54] I'm going to give you a little push back [70:55] because Chris Valatin [70:57] >> Chris Valatin two years ago when he was [71:01] expressing his undying love for a [71:04] predator, Mike Pickle, who had who had [71:07] already been known to have been with a [71:09] 14-year-old, at least been accused. [71:11] Tammy Woods had come back and come out [71:13] in early February. And in late February, [71:16] Chris Valatin is expressing his undying [71:19] love to Mike. I love Mike Bickl. He's my [71:20] brother. And then he talks about Ben [71:22] Armstrong. And then he says, "And no, we [71:25] don't put any restrictions on him when [71:27] it comes to meeting with women." So by [71:30] that by that standard, I would imagine [71:33] that [71:33] >> you'd have to apply the same [71:34] juristprudence to to to right. They [71:37] don't they because they intuitively [71:40] recognize it's a it's an absurdity. They [71:43] don't do that, right? [71:44] >> But they apply the same juristp prudence [71:46] >> to to their adults uh um people in their [71:50] care, the adult members of their [71:52] congregation. So So um why is there not [71:55] an argument right now within the [71:58] zeitgeist? Why is there not an argument [72:00] right now about restoring pets to [72:03] nursery ministry? Well, um I think one [72:08] we recognize it as intuitively absurd uh [72:11] because we recognize that to restore a [72:14] pet to nursery ministry is to gamble [72:17] with the lives of children and it's [72:20] utterly reckless. It is utterly evil to [72:23] do and you should go to jail if you try [72:25] to do it. And it's the same thing that [72:28] we're seeing there. The other reason [72:30] we're not thieves and we don't take [72:32] thieves. We don't take Bernie maid off. [72:33] if he gets born again and we say, "Well, [72:35] he's dead now." But we don't say, "Hey, [72:36] Birdie, you know, now that you're saved, [72:38] we're going to put you we're going to [72:39] make you the treasurer. We're going to [72:41] make you the the CPA of the No, we don't [72:44] trust somebody who has been a thief to [72:47] to count the money." But but by that [72:49] logic that hey, they've repented. [72:51] They're born again. So, we're not going [72:52] to put any restrictions on Ben when it [72:55] comes to being if we see him alone with [72:56] a woman, that won't even raise alarms [72:59] for us because that's how much we trust [73:02] him. then it should be the same not only [73:04] for nursery workers but thieves and and [73:06] everyone else. Or maybe we just use [73:08] common sense and we say this person [73:12] committed adultery at some level when he [73:14] first got married. Then we have a [73:17] testimony that he had they what they [73:19] called an affair. I don't call it that [73:21] um in in 12 years later. Maybe we [73:24] shouldn't put him in situations where he [73:26] might be tempted. Even if we do bring [73:27] him back into ministry, which I would [73:29] not have done, maybe we should not [73:32] encourage him to be alone with women as [73:34] opposed to walking in a room seeing him [73:36] alone with a woman with his arm around [73:37] her and go, "Hey, bless you, Ben." Being [73:40] in ministry is not that important. The [73:42] the reason that we're not seeing the the [73:46] uh push to restore pedophiles to nursery [73:50] uh nursery ministry is is this. There's [73:53] no vain glory [73:54] >> available to people [73:56] >> for nursery ministry. There's the only [73:59] reason that we have this push is because [74:02] uh because people crave their platforms. [74:05] They crave the influence. They crave the [74:07] money that's that's involved. They crave [74:09] the the glory and and they think this is [74:12] my calling. This is what God has called [74:14] me to do. Shouldn't I be exercising my [74:17] gifts? you know, if you're a teacher and [74:19] Jonathan Welton says, "Well, I've been [74:21] given a teaching gift. Should I not [74:23] exercise that?" There's so many other [74:25] places where you can use this. It is not [74:27] that important. It is not that important [74:30] to be in ministry. [74:32] >> I think what we see with a lot of these [74:34] guys, I'm thinking of somebody right now [74:36] who has [74:38] sadly been exposed as a prophetic fake [74:41] liar. And not just that, somebody [74:44] willing to curse people. you know, God [74:45] showed me this, God showed me that when [74:47] he clearly didn't. Um, you you you you [74:50] see somebody panicking that they're they [74:53] they they're losing their entire [74:56] platform and they can't do anything [74:58] else. You know, they're in their late [75:00] 30s or early 40s and they have no other [75:03] skills. They're conmen. They've been [75:06] conning the church and maybe they, you [75:08] know, at what level did they at one time [75:10] have an experience with the Lord? I [75:11] don't know. I believe many of them were [75:13] at one time walking with the Lord, but [75:16] now they're they're later on in life and [75:18] they they have nothing else. They're [75:20] going to have to go get a job, you know, [75:23] collecting grocery carts at the grocery [75:24] store because they they don't have any [75:28] other skills. And the ministry is a way [75:32] of making money. It's a way of feeling [75:36] important, my place in the community. [75:39] And you're very right that that you [75:41] don't have that in the nursery. You [75:42] know, you typically don't get paid and [75:44] you don't get celebrated. Um so and that [75:47] and that's why it is a red flag when [75:49] someone says, "I just got to get back [75:50] into the nursery." [75:53] Yeah. Right. Right. I I think that this [75:58] reveals the idolatry that we have for [76:00] for what ministry is. We have flipped it [76:03] on its head. No longer is it service to [76:06] God's sheep. You know, uh, Jesus in [76:10] reinstating Peter, do you love me? Yes, [76:14] Lord, you know that I love you. You know [76:15] all things. [76:17] Then demonstrate your love for me in [76:19] this way. Take care of my people. Feed [76:22] my sheep. As shepherds, this is how we [76:26] demonstrate love for Christ is to tend [76:31] well the people that he loves and gave [76:34] his life for. to prioritize [76:38] the replatforming of people who have [76:41] been utterly disqualified by harming his [76:44] sheep [76:45] is is to do the opposite of what Christ [76:48] has called us to do. And in so doing, I [76:52] believe we are showing contempt for him [76:55] by the way that we treat his body, by [76:58] the way that we treat his flock. [77:02] We are showing contempt for Jesus. [77:06] That's a strong statement, but I don't [77:08] think you can refute it. I I think that [77:11] this is this is this matters. This [77:14] matters to Jesus how we treat his [77:17] people. And we will give an account for [77:20] what we have done to replplatform [77:23] predators [77:24] to to make this the jurist prudence that [77:26] it's it's more important that this this [77:29] predator finds healing and saves his [77:32] marriage versus the life that he [77:34] destroyed having a home and a safe place [77:36] to heal. [77:38] I'm speaking of Sarah. You know, it it [77:40] is it is more important and and again, I [77:43] I think it's worth I'm grateful that [77:46] you've done this, Ron, throughout this [77:47] conversation. We're coming out really [77:49] strong here uh about predators and [77:52] predation. I God cares about Ben [77:54] Armstrong. Um, God really does care [77:57] about Ven Armstrong. And uh, I I hope [78:00] and and uh, choose to believe that he [78:04] truly is repentant, that he wants to [78:07] serve Jesus and and and love God and [78:10] love his family. Well, I I choose to [78:12] believe that. Um, nevertheless, [78:16] to reinstate somebody with that track [78:19] record is to gamble with God's people. [78:23] And it's just not worth it. [78:26] >> It's not worth the risk. [78:29] >> Yeah. And if uh this entire book and [78:33] this this is our motivation here, we're [78:35] talking about a book that has been used [78:37] all over the world uh to justify [78:40] restoring those who have committed [78:42] clergy sexual abuse. Read the end of the [78:45] book. That that is the conclusion Danny [78:47] Silk comes to is we'll we'll see we hope [78:50] to see these people back in ministry [78:52] again. Ministry I could I would be very [78:55] happy to live without ministry. I don't [78:56] need ministry. I' I've I've uh [79:01] it is this idol that we need to let go [79:03] of. I do love doing what I do. I love [79:05] teaching the word. I love So I I I love [79:08] who God has called me to be. But I could [79:10] live without it. my family is more [79:12] important and my relationship with God [79:14] is even more important. Um, but at the [79:18] end of that book, the book is about [79:20] getting people who have committed [79:22] adultery or committed clergy sexual [79:24] abuse, getting them back in ministry. [79:27] And that just has not worked out well in [79:29] the two cases. Uh, let's this just [79:33] briefly again over regarding Ben [79:35] Armstrong. [79:37] Danny's whole thing. He when did he hit [79:39] pay dirt? When Ben was honest with him [79:43] about the first adultery, he said, "Now [79:45] we hit pay dirt." Except he wasn't [79:48] honest with you. He wasn't honest with [79:49] you about the nature of his relationship [79:52] with Sarah because you kept calling it [79:54] an affair. When in fact, clearly she [79:57] wanted nothing to do with him and and [79:59] and he is touching her and getting her [80:02] drunk. So he wasn't honest with you. So [80:05] that really invalid. If you're saying [80:07] this guy proves that it works, I'm [80:09] saying it proves that it doesn't. And [80:11] with Jonathan Welton, you know, we as we [80:14] will hear later, I we you and I know [80:16] Mark and I, John, Mark, we know as a [80:19] fact that [80:21] when the pastor who was pastoring [80:25] Jonathan Welton got a copy of that book, [80:29] having worked with Danny Silk and a [80:31] group of other uh people in Jonathan [80:33] Welton's life for many years, that when [80:36] they got when he got that book in the [80:38] mail, it was representing a ministry [80:41] to Jonathan that he was involved to [80:44] involved with as if it went great as if [80:47] they got to the root of things even [80:49] though it was clearly unfinished and he [80:51] opens up the package and he's got this [80:53] book which by the way has still has a [80:55] fourword of Sean BS and he is shocked [80:59] that he's being represented in the book [81:02] and he had just dysfellowshipped [81:05] Jonathan Welton. So, let me just for for [81:08] those who aren't putting all that [81:10] together, [81:12] Danny Silk writes this book. He has two [81:14] case studies. One is Ben Armstrong. The [81:16] other is Jonathan Welton. And as the [81:18] book comes out, Jonathan Welton, who is [81:22] this great success story on his way, has [81:24] just been kicked out of his church by [81:28] his pastor who was part of that team [81:30] overseeing his restoration. And yet, he [81:34] didn't Danny didn't say, "Wait a minute. [81:35] We got to get that book back. We got to [81:37] get that out out of print or no, we [81:40] let's just wait and see. Hopefully, [81:42] it'll have a better a better uh outcome [81:44] in the future. So, it is my [81:49] conclusion that there is some dishonesty [81:52] in putting that book out. [81:55] >> Yeah. uh [81:58] dishonesty, conflict of interest, [82:01] writing a book about the guy that you're [82:04] restoring. When you claim in the book [82:05] that you're getting your theology for [82:07] the book from the guy that you are [82:09] restoring, um there's so many conflicts [82:11] of interest here that to uh it's boggles [82:15] the mind. The common thread I'm seeing [82:17] here is that uh when it comes to [82:20] restoration, victims come last. [82:24] And uh That's the that's the [82:27] unpunishable [82:28] juristp prudence that I think truly [82:31] needs to be undone [82:34] in as we are learning the errors of what [82:38] led to this downfall within the [82:40] charismatic movement. Uh unpunishable [82:43] was the uh was the clearest articulation [82:48] of what I think has been uh our modus [82:51] operandi for a long time. Um this Danny [82:55] Silk didn't invent this. Um this has [82:58] been this has been around for decades. [83:02] Um the reason that we are going after uh [83:05] unpunishable is because we have seen uh [83:08] just in stark relief the type of damage [83:11] that has been done that God is right now [83:13] exposing within our movement and within [83:16] our community. And this needs to be [83:18] undone. Here's here's the reality. Uh [83:22] Danny Silk has painted a picture of God [83:25] that has no wrath, does not impose [83:27] consequences, does not impose punishment [83:29] on people. He merely allows them to [83:33] experience the consequences in a passive [83:36] sense. [83:37] And you know the scripture says about [83:39] those who worship idols um those who [83:42] worship them become like them. [83:45] I I think that this is what has [83:47] happened. We uh Danny and we in the [83:51] charismatic movement has created this [83:53] hyper grace god that has no wrath for [83:56] sin. And we've become just like him. He [83:59] has no uh justice for victims. He has no [84:03] vengeance. And uh we have adopted that [84:06] exact same mentality. And then we have [84:08] become like this false god that we've [84:10] created. And this is a truly truly a [84:15] travesty that we need to repent  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps) ## Highlights - One illustration I use to describe the spirit of gentleness in reference to Galatians 6:1 is to imagine trying to pet a deer. The only way I am going to be successful is if I can convince that deer that I pose zero threat to it. - Note: 📚 Danny Silk treats fallen ministers like "scared deer" requiring protection · - Chapter describing Silk's approach to restoration counseling - Reveals priority system protecting perpetrators over victims and communities - Demonstrates conflict between therapeutic role and community protection duty · #atom/literature/h1 - In revealing the father, Jesus systematically confronted and exposed humanity's false views of God. In particular, the view of God as a punisher who endorses the human punishment paradigm while revealing his plan to eliminate the punishment paradigm by forgiving sin. - Note: 📚 Unpunishable doctrine eliminates God's punitive justice from biblical theology · - Core theological foundation of Silk's restoration framework - Creates false distinction between Old Testament "punisher" and New Testament "discipliner" - Contradicts biblical texts showing God's justice as intrinsic to His nature · #atom/literature/h2 - You asked me a question early on. Actually, we were sitting in your office and you said, "So, what does coming back to ministry look like?" And I I was surprised you even asked that question because I didn't think that was even on the table. - Note: 📚 Restoration processes exclude victims while immediately focusing on ministry return · - Ben Armstrong describing Danny Silk's immediate ministry restoration focus - Demonstrates priority inversion in restoration jurisprudence - Sarah (the victim) was never asked parallel questions about her restoration needs · #atom/literature/h3 - Biblical church discipline must prioritize sheep protection over wolf restoration - Note: [[Church discipline theology]] — because extends biblical framework · - [[Church discipline theology]] — because extends biblical framework · #atom/zettel/z1 - Research recidivism rates for ministers restored under "unpunishable" framework vs traditional discipline — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps #fleeting #research - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f1 - Investigate financial relationships between restoration consultants and hiring churches for conflict of interest analysis — #fleeting #investigation - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f2 --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened:** John Mark Baker and Dr. Ron Caner analyze Danny Silk's book "Unpunishable," examining its theology of restoration for fallen ministers and its application in two major cases: Ben Armstrong and Jonathan Welton. - **Why it matters:** This doctrine has contributed to dangerous restoration practices that prioritize returning abusive ministers to ministry over protecting victims and church communities. - **Key stakeholders:** Danny Silk, Bethel Church leadership, Ben Armstrong, Jonathan Welton, abuse survivors Sarah and Roz, church communities affected by these teachings. - **Risks and tradeoffs:** The approach protects predators while endangering vulnerable congregants, creates theological justification for minimizing serious abuse, and establishes dangerous precedents for church discipline. - **Bottom line:** The "unpunishable" doctrine is biblically unsound, practically dangerous, and prioritizes restoring abusers over protecting victims and communities. ## 📖 Main Content The podcast provides a comprehensive critique of Danny Silk's "Unpunishable" doctrine, which has influenced restoration practices at Bethel Church and beyond. The core theological error lies in Silk's false distinction between "punishment" and "discipline," claiming God never punishes but only disciplines. ### Central Theological Problems Silk argues that punishment reflects humanity's "baser urges" while discipline represents God's true nature. He claims Jesus came to correct humanity's "false view of God as a punisher." This creates a fundamental theological error by: 1. **Dividing the Old and New Testament God:** Silk portrays the Old Testament God as punitive while the New Testament God is purely restorative 2. **Redefining sin as "mess":** Using euphemistic language that minimizes the severity of abuse 3. **Eliminating divine justice:** Claiming God only passively allows consequences rather than actively judging sin ### Practical Failures in Application The doctrine's dangerous practical implications are demonstrated through two case studies: **Ben Armstrong Case:** - Danny Silk immediately asked "What does coming back to ministry look like?" rather than focusing on victim care - The victim (Sarah) was given only two sentences in the first chapter of the book - Sarah's story was told without her permission to sell books - The restoration process excluded the victim while centering the abuser - Ben Armstrong was later removed from ministry again when Sarah publicly shared her story **Jonathan Welton Case:** - The book was published before restoration was complete - Multiple victims were not consulted in the restoration process - The process failed, yet the book was not updated to reflect this failure ### The Language of Minimization Throughout the analysis, Baker and Caner highlight Silk's systematic use of euphemistic language: - "Affair" instead of abuse or assault - "Mess" and "messmaker" instead of sin and sinner - "Scared deer" metaphor for approaching abusive ministers with gentleness This language minimizes the severity of abuse while centering the comfort of perpetrators over the protection of victims. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=0) Introduction and Context - Charismatic movement has created "hyper grace God" with no wrath for sin - When authority is abused for sexual exploitation, reinstatement gambles with souls - Book written by Danny Silk examines jurisprudence for restoration of fallen ministers #### ⏱️ [00:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=150) Two Case Studies - Ben Armstrong case: victim Sarah interviewed by Bla1 and Christina Fere - Jonathan Welton case: last three chapters center around this restoration - Question: Is this biblical, practical, and does it make church safer? #### ⏱️ [00:05:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=315) Danny Silk's Financial Motivation - Allegedly gets paid several hundred dollars per hour to restore abusive pastors - Distinguishes between walking into bar vs. using position of authority to prey - Position of authority manipulation makes it disqualifying #### ⏱️ [00:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=420) "Scared Deer" Approach - Silk approaches fallen ministers like trying to pet a scared deer - "I pose zero threat" - won't control, hurt, punish, shame, or protect others from them - Sarah gets two sentences in first chapter; her story told without permission #### ⏱️ [00:10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=630) Case Study Failures - Ben Armstrong removed from ministry after Sarah told her story - Roz came forward about being groomed by Armstrong - Word "affair" used seven times but testimonies describe grooming - Jonathan Welton book published before restoration complete #### ⏱️ [00:15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=945) Theological Distinction: Punishment vs Discipline - Central thesis distinguishes punishment from discipline - Claims distinction lies at heart of new covenant - Punishment portrayed as human paradigm; discipline as God's nature - Systematic confrontation of humanity's "false views of God" #### ⏱️ [00:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1200) Problems with Old vs New Testament God - Silk suggests different God between covenants - Grace present throughout Old Testament (Israelites rescued from Egypt) - Jesus appears throughout Old Testament - Same God: Yahweh, Jesus, Father, Son, Holy Spirit #### ⏱️ [00:25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1515) "Mess" Language - Word "mess" used over 100 times as euphemism for sin - Minimizes "horrific, destructive behavior that deeply wounds souls" - Focus solely on "messmaker" with almost no emphasis on victim wounds - Contrast with two years of talking to clergy sexual abuse victims #### ⏱️ [00:27:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1650) Video Analysis: Immediate Ministry Focus - Danny immediately asks Ben: "What does coming back to ministry look like?" - Sarah not asked same question about her restoration - Missing person at reconciliation table: Sarah (she had left years earlier) - Ministry continuation prioritized over family restoration #### ⏱️ [00:32:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=1965) Heather's Revealing Comment - "Maybe they were keeping Ben along because testing if the book really worked" - Laughter reveals they know this is what happened - "We're just propping this book up" - Truth revealed in jest #### ⏱️ [00:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2100) Punishment vs Discipline Framework - Punishment: upholding rules, worldly sorrow, submission/control, external law - Discipline: restoring relationship, godly sorrow, responsibility/self-control, internal law - Problem: narrow view makes "mince meat out of the Bible" #### ⏱️ [00:40:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2415) Exodus 34:6-7 Analysis - God proclaims His essential nature to Moses - Merciful AND "will by no means clear the guilty" - "Visiting iniquity" = punishing (NIV: "does not leave guilty unpunished") - God's justice through punishment intrinsic to His nature #### ⏱️ [00:45:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2730) Moral Intuition and Justice - Human moral intuition demands justice for severe crimes - If judge forgives reformed murderer, righteous outcry follows - Recognition that punishment for guilty is just and right - Especially true when victim is family member or loved one #### ⏱️ [00:48:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=2880) Biblical Examples of Punishment - Adam and Eve: consequences for disobedience - Cain: punished for killing Abel - David: suffered greatly after repentance despite Psalm 51 - "You don't want the King David deal" - son died, family chaos followed #### ⏱️ [00:52:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3135) 2 Samuel 12:7-14 Analysis - Nathan confronts David: "You are the man" - God declares consequences: sword never depart from house - David repents, receives forgiveness, but child still dies - Forgiveness doesn't remove consequences #### ⏱️ [00:55:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3330) New Testament Punishment - Ananias and Sapphira struck dead for lying - Revelation 3: Jezebel faces judgment - God declares "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" - Only hope is trusting God's justice allows us to forgive #### ⏱️ [00:58:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3525) Hell and Active vs Passive Punishment - Silk: God passively allows consequences, doesn't actively punish - Hebrew scholar: little difference between allowing and actively permitting - Hell is active judgment, not just natural consequences - Hebrew doesn't support passive interpretation #### ⏱️ [01:02:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3720) Romans 13: Government as God's Agents - Authorities established by God as "agents of wrath" - Bear sword "to bring punishment on wrongdoer" - Government servants are God's servants, not Satan's - If good for government, good for church - good is good #### ⏱️ [01:06:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=3975) Contradictory Statements in Book - Page 180: "Our job as shepherds is to protect innocent people" - Page 129: "I'm not here to try to protect other people from you" - Core failure: lack of discernment about wolves vs sheep - Failure to recognize when repentance type doesn't matter for restoration #### ⏱️ [01:10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=4230) Repeat Offender Argument - Silk: "Many leaders are repeat offenders without losing position" - "Just successful in hiding sin or sinning acceptably" - Caner: "Horrible argument" - like saying can't catch all shoplifters so let caught ones go - Wrong standard: can't hold everyone accountable so don't hold anyone accountable #### ⏱️ [01:15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=4545) Book Focus: Serious Sexual Abuse - Ben Armstrong: multiple "affairs" now understood as grooming - Jonathan Welton: authority abuse with subordinates - Not minor issues like gossip - serious betrayals of trust - Armstrong case: "We hit pay dirt" response to discovering more abuse #### ⏱️ [01:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=4800) Shepherd vs Wolf Responsibility - Shepherd's responsibility to sheep, not wolves - Personal experience: had to choose victim over close friend who committed CSA - Problem: covering for ministry buddies instead of protecting sheep - Belief that church destruction coming due to unpunished leadership sin #### ⏱️ [01:25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=5115) Authority Abuse vs Personal Sin - Position of authority abuse violates trust on level requiring permanent disqualification - Different from personal sins with no victims - "Evil" and "wrong" to reinstate authority abusers - Must err on side of protecting sheep, not "messmaker" #### ⏱️ [01:28:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=5310) Conflict of Interest Problem - Silk plays both counselor (therapeutic) and community protector roles - These roles at cross-purposes with each other - Rogerian unconditional positive regard conflicts with protection duty - Same conflict appears in both case studies #### ⏱️ [01:30:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps?t=5445) Matthew 24:45-51 God's Heart for Protection - Faithful servant blessed vs wicked servant who "beats fellow servants" - God's response to abusive authority: "cut him in pieces" - God's heart protects His people through punishment of abusive leaders - "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord" - God will exact punishment on authority abusers ## 📚 References - [Unpunishable by Danny Silk](reference-url-if-available) - [Bla1 and Christina Fere interview with Sarah](reference-url-if-available) - [Mike Winger 6-hour video on Shawn Bolz](reference-url-if-available) - [Minor Prophets Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/channel/channel-id) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase The Minor Prophets podcast hosts provide a devastating critique of Bethel Church's restoration theology as outlined in Danny Silk's "Unpunishable." They demonstrate how this doctrine creates a false theological framework that prioritizes returning abusive ministers to power over protecting victims and church communities. The hosts systematically dismantle Silk's central premise that God doesn't punish but only disciplines, showing through extensive biblical analysis that divine justice includes active punishment for sin. They reveal how the doctrine's euphemistic language ("mess" instead of sin, "affair" instead of abuse) minimizes serious crimes while centering the comfort of perpetrators. Most damning, they expose how the doctrine's two key case studies—Ben Armstrong and Jonathan Welton—both failed, with Armstrong being removed from ministry again and victims' stories contradicting the sanitized versions presented in the book. The analysis reveals a systematic pattern of excluding victims from restoration processes while immediately focusing on returning abusers to ministry positions. ## 📰 Newsletter 🚨 **Critical Analysis: Why Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine Endangers Churches** This week's deep dive examines the theological and practical failures of Danny Silk's influential restoration framework. The Minor Prophets podcast delivers a masterclass in biblical analysis, showing how seemingly compassionate theology can actually enable abuse. **Key Takeaways for Church Leaders:** - **Theological Red Flags:** Any doctrine that eliminates divine punishment contradicts core biblical teaching - **Language Matters:** Watch for euphemistic terms that minimize serious abuse ("affair" vs assault, "mess" vs sin) - **Process Failures:** Restoration that excludes victims while centering abusers is fundamentally flawed - **Conflict of Interest:** Same person cannot effectively counsel abusers AND protect communities **Essential Resources:** - Full podcast analysis provides biblical framework for healthy church discipline - Case study failures demonstrate real-world consequences of faulty theology - Romans 13 analysis shows God's design for justice through proper authorities **Bottom Line:** Shepherds protect sheep from wolves—not the other way around. True restoration theology must prioritize victim safety and community protection while maintaining biblical standards for church leadership. ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Evaluate current church discipline and restoration policies for victim-centered approaches - Develop clear disqualification criteria for authority-based abuse cases - Implement mandatory reporting protocols for suspected abuse regardless of "repentance" - Create victim advocacy roles separate from leadership restoration processes - Establish external oversight for any restoration processes involving serious misconduct - Train leadership to recognize grooming behaviors vs consensual adult relationships #### WordPress - Document theological resources on biblical church discipline for community reference - Create educational content distinguishing healthy vs harmful restoration practices - Develop safety guidelines for WordPress community leadership accountability ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Churches using "unpunishable" theology will have higher rates of repeat offenses among restored leaders - Victim-excluded restoration processes correlate with continued abuse patterns - Euphemistic language for abuse predicts inadequate protective measures - Financial incentives for restoration consultants create conflicts of interest affecting victim safety - Churches distinguishing Old Testament vs New Testament God show higher tolerance for leadership abuse - Communities prioritizing leader restoration over victim care experience higher exodus rates among members ## 📊 Methodology **Theological Analysis Framework:** - Systematic examination of biblical texts on divine justice and punishment - Comparative analysis of Old Testament and New Testament punishment examples - Evaluation of restoration theology against comprehensive biblical teaching **Case Study Analysis:** - Document outcomes of restoration processes in Ben Armstrong and Jonathan Welton cases - Compare victim testimonies with official restoration narratives - Track long-term effectiveness of restoration interventions **Language Pattern Analysis:** - Catalog euphemistic terminology used in restoration literature - Measure frequency and context of minimizing language - Compare victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered language patterns ## ❓ Questions - How many churches have adopted "unpunishable" doctrine principles in their discipline policies? - What are the recidivism rates for ministers restored under this framework? - How do victim outcomes differ between victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered restoration approaches? - What financial relationships exist between restoration consultants and the churches hiring them? - How does theological training on divine justice correlate with effective church discipline practices? ## 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of restoration outcomes comparing different theological frameworks - Analysis of victim healing trajectories in various restoration approaches - Examination of legal liability issues for churches using inadequate restoration processes - Investigation of financial incentive structures in restoration consulting industry - Development of victim-centered restoration models with biblical foundation ## 💡 Implications **Practice:** Churches must develop restoration policies that prioritize victim safety and community protection while maintaining possibilities for genuine redemption outside leadership roles. **Policy:** Denominational bodies need clear disqualification standards for authority-based abuse that cannot be overridden by claims of repentance. **Security:** Implementation of external oversight and accountability measures for any restoration processes involving serious misconduct. **Education:** Comprehensive training for church leaders on recognizing manipulation, grooming, and the differences between personal sin and authority abuse. **Funding:** Evaluation of financial incentive structures that may compromise restoration consultant objectivity and victim safety. ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment **Reading level estimate:** Grade 12-14 (using Flesch-Kincaid formula) - Score: 7.2/10 #### 👀 Visual learners **Present:** Systematic theological comparisons, clear distinction tables (punishment vs discipline), biblical text analysis **Improve:** Flowcharts showing restoration process failures, timeline graphics of case studies, visual comparison of victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered approaches #### 🔊 Aural learners **Present:** Podcast format with two-host dialogue, quoted material read aloud, conversational analysis style **Improve:** Audio-only summary version, discussion guide for group listening, supplemental audio commentary #### 🗣️ Verbal learners **Present:** Clear definitions of theological terms, extensive biblical quotations, analogies (shepherd/wolf, judge/criminal) **Improve:** Glossary of restoration terminology, expanded analogies section, discussion questions for verbal processing #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners **Present:** Step-by-step analysis of restoration processes, practical application examples, action-oriented recommendations **Improve:** Interactive case study exercises, role-playing scenarios for identifying red flags, hands-on policy development templates #### 🧠 Logical learners **Present:** Systematic theological arguments, cause-and-effect analysis of restoration failures, logical progression through biblical texts **Improve:** Decision trees for restoration scenarios, formal logic analysis of theological claims, quantitative analysis of case study outcomes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners **Present:** Two-host collaborative analysis, community impact focus, discussion of church relationships **Improve:** Group study guide, community discussion forums, collaborative policy development exercises #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners **Present:** Detailed biblical study sections, individual reflection prompts through questioning, personal application challenges **Improve:** Self-assessment tools for church policies, private journaling prompts, independent research suggestions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners **Present:** Shepherd/sheep ecosystem analogies, organic community health metaphors **Improve:** Extended metaphors from natural protection systems, environmental health parallels, ecosystem balance analogies ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics **Present:** Clear heading hierarchy, descriptive timestamps, quoted material properly formatted **Improve:** Alt text for any embedded images, table headers for comparison charts, ARIA labels for video content #### Keyboard navigation **Present:** Standard web navigation, logical tab order in timestamps **Improve:** Skip links for major sections, keyboard shortcuts for timestamp navigation, focus indicators on interactive elements #### Contrast and readability **Present:** Standard text formatting, clear section breaks **Improve:** High contrast mode option, customizable text sizing, reduced motion preferences #### Text resizing and reflow **Present:** Responsive formatting supports standard zoom levels **Improve:** Mobile-optimized timestamp navigation, reflowing tables for small screens, adaptive layout for large text #### Media and captions **Present:** Full transcript provided, timestamps linked to video content **Improve:** Professional closed captions for video, audio descriptions for visual content, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions **Present:** Simple navigation structure, clear links **Improve:** Form validation for any feedback mechanisms, accessible video controls, error messaging for broken links #### Standards reference Maps well to WCAG 2.2 AA with improvements needed in multimedia accessibility and interactive element labeling. ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth **Present:** Focus on American evangelical context, some awareness of broader Christian traditions **Improve:** International perspectives on church discipline, cross-cultural restoration practices, diverse denominational approaches #### Inclusive language **Present:** Generally accessible theological language, defined technical terms **Improve:** Plain language alternatives for theological jargon, expanded definitions section, non-denominational framing where possible #### Neurodiversity support **Present:** Clear structure with consistent formatting, logical progression through arguments **Improve:** Executive summary sections, bullet point alternatives to dense paragraphs, consistent visual formatting cues #### Representation **Present:** Male host perspectives, some victim voice inclusion through case studies **Improve:** More diverse theological voices, expanded victim perspective integration, female leadership input on restoration practices #### Psychological safety **Present:** Sensitive handling of abuse topics, content warnings implied through subject matter **Improve:** Explicit content warnings for abuse discussions, trauma-informed language choices, resource links for abuse survivors ## ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning **Deductive strength (biblical analysis):** Systematic examination of biblical texts supporting divine justice demonstrates strong logical progression from premises to conclusions. **Inductive strength (case studies):** Pattern recognition across multiple restoration failures provides compelling evidence for doctrine's practical problems. **Causal analysis:** Clear demonstration of how theological errors lead to practical failures in victim protection and community safety. #### Fallacies **Ad hominem (minor):** Occasional focus on Danny Silk's financial incentives rather than purely theological arguments. **Fix:** Maintain focus on theological and practical critiques while noting conflicts of interest separately. **False dichotomy (avoided):** Successfully avoids creating false choice between forgiveness and accountability by distinguishing redemption from restoration to leadership. **Appeal to consequences:** Some arguments focus on dangerous outcomes rather than theological truth. **Fix:** Strengthen biblical foundation for protection-focused approach independent of practical outcomes. #### Tone of voice **Tone:** Concerned pastoral urgency with academic rigor. Examples: "This is deeply problematic," "We believe that this book has contributed," "It is evil... to reinstate that person." Combines scholarly analysis with protective passion appropriate for addressing dangerous doctrine. ## 🛡️ DARVO Analysis **Deny:** The "unpunishable" doctrine systematically denies the severity of abuse by reframing it as "mess" rather than sin, minimizing victim trauma while emphasizing perpetrator rehabilitation. **Attack:** Subtle attacking of traditional church discipline as "punishment paradigm" that reflects "humanity's baser urges" rather than biblical wisdom, positioning critics as lacking understanding of "new covenant" principles. **Reverse victim/offender:** Most prominently seen in treating fallen leaders as "scared deer" needing gentle protection while positioning accountability measures as threatening and harmful to the "messmaker." **Emotional cues:** Language of fear ("scared deer"), protection ("I pose zero threat"), and therapeutic concern creates emotional framework favoring perpetrator comfort over victim safety. **Related fallacies:** Appeal to pity for "messmakers," false dilemma between grace and accountability, strawman characterization of biblical discipline as purely punitive. ## 🎯 Conclusion The "unpunishable" doctrine represents a fundamental theological error with devastating practical consequences for church communities. By eliminating divine punishment from God's character and reframing authority-based abuse as mere "mess," this teaching creates a framework that prioritizes returning predators to power over protecting vulnerable community members. The biblical analysis demonstrates that God's justice includes active punishment alongside mercy—both are intrinsic to His nature. The case study failures reveal that even when applied by its primary advocate, this doctrine fails to produce genuine restoration while endangering additional victims. Churches must develop restoration theologies that maintain both biblical standards for leadership and genuine care for those who have fallen, while always prioritizing the protection of vulnerable community members. True shepherds protect sheep from wolves, not the reverse. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — Bethel's "Unpunishable" Doctrine is Reckless and Wrong ### 📚 Literature Atoms (H3) #### Danny Silk treats fallen ministers like "scared deer" requiring protection > [!quote] ID:rw_transcript_001 > One illustration I use to describe the spirit of gentleness in reference to Galatians 6:1 is to imagine trying to pet a deer. The only way I am going to be successful is if I can convince that deer that I pose zero threat to it. **Context & use**: - Chapter describing Silk's approach to restoration counseling - Reveals priority system protecting perpetrators over victims and communities - Demonstrates conflict between therapeutic role and community protection duty **Tags**: #xref #clergy-abuse-theology **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://open-video-transcript)  #### Unpunishable doctrine eliminates God's punitive justice from biblical theology > [!quote] ID:rw_transcript_002 > In revealing the father, Jesus systematically confronted and exposed humanity's false views of God. In particular, the view of God as a punisher who endorses the human punishment paradigm while revealing his plan to eliminate the punishment paradigm by forgiving sin. **Context & use**: - Core theological foundation of Silk's restoration framework - Creates false distinction between Old Testament "punisher" and New Testament "discipliner" - Contradicts biblical texts showing God's justice as intrinsic to His nature **Tags**: #theology #biblical-interpretation **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://open-video-transcript)  #### Restoration processes exclude victims while immediately focusing on ministry return > [!quote] ID:rw_transcript_003 > You asked me a question early on. Actually, we were sitting in your office and you said, "So, what does coming back to ministry look like?" And I I was surprised you even asked that question because I didn't think that was even on the table. **Context & use**: - Ben Armstrong describing Danny Silk's immediate ministry restoration focus - Demonstrates priority inversion in restoration jurisprudence - Sarah (the victim) was never asked parallel questions about her restoration needs **Tags**: #restoration-process #victim-exclusion **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://open-video-transcript)  ### 🧠 Permanent Candidates (H4) #### Biblical church discipline must prioritize sheep protection over wolf restoration **Claim**: When ministers abuse positional authority for sexual exploitation, permanent disqualification from leadership serves biblical justice and community protection regardless of repentance quality. **Evidence pointer**: [[#Restoration processes exclude victims while immediately focusing on ministry return]] **Scope & conditions**: Applies specifically to authority-based abuse cases where trust violation affects entire community; personal sins without victims require different restoration approaches **Links**: - [[Church discipline theology]] — because extends biblical framework - [[Victim-centered restoration]] — because contrasts with perpetrator-focused approaches - [[Romans 13 government authority]] — because applies parallel justice principles  ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research recidivism rates for ministers restored under "unpunishable" framework vs traditional discipline — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps #fleeting #research - [F2] Investigate financial relationships between restoration consultants and hiring churches for conflict of interest analysis — #fleeting #investigation ### → Things 3 (max 2 actions) - [ ] Review church discipline policies for victim-centered vs perpetrator-centered language and processes #things - [ ] Create educational resource distinguishing biblical discipline from punishment paradigm theology #things --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOsu-wF4Ps)* **[00:00]** We in the charismatic movement have created this hyper grace of God that has no wrath for sin and we've become just like him. He has no justice for victims. He has no vengeance and we have adopted that exact same mentality and then we have become like this false God that we've created. When you have abused your position of authority to sexually take advantage of somebody under your spiritual care, you have violated trust on such a level that to reinstate that **[00:30]** person back into ministry is to gamble with the souls and the lives of God's people. Welcome to the Minor Prophets podcast. I'm John Mark Baker. Today I am joined by Dr. Ron Cantor. We're going to be looking at Unpunishable. This is a book written by Danny Silk, obviously with Bethel coming under scrutiny. There's There's so much that is being revealed right now **[01:00]** and I think it's really important that we investigate the the ideas that got us into the mess we're in and you know, sorry to use a triggering term there, but I I picked up on that, the word mess. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's going to subtle foreshadowing here. That's going to become important in this episode. So Ron and I, we've been working on this video responding to the theology and the **[01:32]** practice of Unpunishable by Danny Silk. Now, this book lays out a jurisprudence for restoration of fallen ministers. There are two major cases that Danny lays out as the proof of his concepts that they actually that they actually work. And so um, we're going to examine the theology and then we're going to examine those cases. Those are the the cases of Ben Armstrong, um, **[02:05]** which Blaze and Christina Ferrare uh did it an excellent job interviewing Sarah, who was Ben's victim, you know, the survivor of of Ben's predations. We're going to be looking at that. Then, there's another case, the case of Jonathan Welton, which the last three chapters of Unpunishable really center around. And we're going to examine Danny's jurisprudence that's laid out in the book and then applied to the case of Jonathan Welton and ask ourselves, does this actually bear out? One, is it **[02:36]** biblical? Two, is it practical? And three, does it make for a safer church or a more dangerous one? And um, so before we dive into some of the uh arguments and and get into some of the theology, uh Ron, do you have anything that you want to add here in the intro? Yeah, I would say that, you know, we're not doing this just to do it. We we believe that this book is deeply problematic. Uh that it has contributed contributed **[03:07]** to this idea that predators can be restored to ministry, that you can take somebody who is a wolf, interested in devouring the sheep, and and uh reform them, redeem them, and then and we're not obviously Jesus can do anything in terms of redemption and changing someone's life, but it does not mean that the ultimate goal is that you're in ministry, as if ministry, um, is is just the chief goal of every human being. **[03:37]** And um if somebody is a wolf, if they've proven once, twice, three times that they're willing to prey upon God's flock, you know, I'm of the persuasion and John Mark, I I you're of the persuasion that that person cannot be trusted in that position. So, in this book has been used wide and far to say, "Hey, yeah, we can we can get this guy back in ministry." And Danny Silk himself, from what I understand, uh gets well paid to come into situations, **[04:09]** several hundred dollars an hour, allegedly, to to restore pastors who have committed clergy sexual abuse. And more and more, I think most uh Christian psychologists, and counselors, and social workers, and and certainly many, many pastors have come to the conclusion that once you have We're not talking about walking into a bar and meeting a girl and and cheating on your wife, which is horrible. We're talking about using your position of authority **[04:40]** and uh preying on somebody, manipulating prophecy, manipulating your position as a moral authority to uh appease your sexual gratifications. That, in our opinion, is punishable, and it is disqualifying. Yeah, and it's it's disqualifying. And Danny Silk says in his book uh that his attitude towards uh those ministers who have, you know, fallen, who have really preyed upon **[05:12]** those under their their care, is that he approaches them like a scared deer. And he tries to make himself he's not a he's not a threat to them. He's not there to control him, uh to control this person. Uh let me just read the quote, actually. Danny says this about his attitude towards towards those he is restoring. Um one illustration I use to describe the spirit of gentleness in reference to Galatians 6:1 is to imagine trying to pet a deer. The **[05:44]** only way I'm going to be successful is if I can convince that deer that I pose zero threat to it. That means I need to eliminate as much anxiety from the encounter as possible. I need to just demonstrate that I will not attempt to control it or hurt that deer in any way. The spirit of gentleness flows from the belief that I do not need to control you. I am not afraid of you or your mess. I'm not here to punish you, shame you, or try to protect other people from you. **[06:16]** I am just here to help you get out of this hole. Now, this is the attitude of the guy who's telling the story of these victims. So, in in Unpunishable, the first chapter that's dedicated to the story of Ben Armstrong and Sarah, Sarah gets two sentences dedicated to her in the first chapter. Her story is told without her permission, the story of her abuse, and it's used to sell books. And so, we don't we **[06:47]** And everybody just sort of applauded the story of of restoration as told by Danny Silk without ever having heard what Sarah had to say. And the same is true of Jonathan Welton. His story has been told by Danny Silk and by Jonathan Welton. Now, before we dive >> interesting that uh you know, both of those cases case studies we now know uh were faulty. Um without going too deep into it right now, I'll just say that that right now **[07:18]** Ben Armstrong has been taken out of ministry. He's been put on administrative leave, I guess it they would call it, um because Sarah has told her story. Not just Sarah, also uh Roz uh came forward uh a few weeks ago as well and said, I was groomed by by Ben. I got out of the relationship, and this was before his issues with Sarah, probably just before, maybe a year maybe less Uh but what they're realizing is and in that story in that first chapter **[07:51]** the word affair is used seven times and when we use the word affair that that is a consensual relationship but in both Sarah's testimony and Ross's testimony they were groomed little by little I mean Ross is very clear that when he met alone with her on few times they met alone in public but alone it went from his arm suddenly going around her now get again this is a I guess he's in his late 30s at the time um **[08:21]** and she's in her early 20s and this is your your I guess they called it revival group leader suddenly his arm is around you I mean I can't I cannot imagine a scenario where I would be alone as a minister in a room and think it would be okay for me to put my arm around somebody who is not my wife not my daughter and and then it went from there to you know where this is what friends do and you know you have a **[08:54]** a relationship issue intimacy issues and I'm going to God showed me you have intimacy issues I'm going to help you with those intimacy issues and then his hand goes in her leg and then it goes up her leg and that's when when she began to pull back um so that when you base a book on a story like that and then seven years later since the book 16 years later since the almost had affair since the abuse that's a problem and then in the issue with with Jonathan Welton **[09:26]** the book was published before he was restored in other words it's like well we really got to get this book out and you [snorts] know he's halfway there or three quarters so we just cross our fingers. Um but those who are his victims as we'll hear from later would say no he he didn't finish the process and the book was never updated and of course um we might mention here that Shawn Bolz wrote the forward to the book and as you said earlier you guys a year ago came out **[09:56]** you blew the whistle that we many of us knew about it was kind of the worst kept secret uh but you guys publicized it and you you made it so it had to be dealt with and of course then Mike Winger uh two months ago coming out with a six-hour uh video regarding Shawn Bolz and about that. So Shawn is writing the forward of this book who his who is himself a predator. And Danny at some point finds out that Shawn is a predator but leaves the forward in his **[10:26]** book for seven years and only under pressure not that he woke up one day and said you know what this is this is wrong I probably shouldn't have a predator who's faking prophecy writing the forward to my book about restoration. Um it took public pressure for him to come out and say that yeah I guess I should remove that. Well it's apropos >> [laughter] >> that uh the uh forward to Unpunishable would be written by a guy that they refused to **[10:57]** punish. Um so if we dive into some of the uh the theology here the the reality is this book uh the central thesis of this book is making a distinction between punishment and discipline. And so um uh Silk claims that this distinction lies at the heart of the new covenant and Jesus correction of humanity's false view of God. So here's a quote from uh page 84 of the book in **[11:31]** revealing the Father, Jesus systematically confronted and exposed humanity's false views of God. In particular, the view of God as a punisher who endorses the human punishment paradigm while revealing his plan to eliminate the punishment paradigm by forgiving sin. So, punishment on his view is not part of God's nature, but rather a manifestation of humanity's baser urges disciplined by contrast is a manifestation of **[12:01]** restorative justice, which is a more pure reflection of God's nature, according to Danny. And so, another quote here from the book. This is from page 110. In the new covenant, discipline is focused on benefiting the person who has made the mess. In the punishment paradigm, the focus is on protecting the interests of everyone but the offender. But, in the new covenant, we understand that helping the mess maker clean up their mess is ultimately what will **[12:31]** produce justice and healing for everyone affected by it. Instead of taking the mess away or requiring the mess maker to deal with the consequences alone, the Father's heart is to walk through the consequences alongside them, bringing comfort, correction, wisdom, and courage as they clean it up. And what do you make of that so far, Ron? Well, I One of the things that concerns me is that Danny keeps saying in the New Testament, in the New Testament, in the New Testament, as if the God of the New **[13:04]** Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament. Um it's not like in in the Old Testament he was grumpy and angry, and he just wanted to punish people, and then he got born again. And >> [laughter] >> in the New Testament, he's suddenly the That is not what we believe. We believe that the the God of the Old Testament, and yeah, there are things in the Old Testament that are make uh you know, you scratch your head. Uh, you know, but the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. The grace that we find, and **[13:34]** this is another misnomer, that the New Testament is about grace and the Old Testament is about works or law, but we see the grace of God all throughout the Old Covenant. The Israelites being rescued from Egypt was not based on merit, it was based on grace. Um, and so, uh, and I think this is kind of a Bethel thing. I think it was Bill Johnson who I'm going to paraphrase here, but I think he said something like, "If you see Jesus, you know, you see the fullness of God." Which I would agree with, but if there's anything else contradictory to Jesus, then it's it's **[14:06]** not the real God. I have a real problem with that. I I want to look at the Bible as as a whole. I wouldn't obviously I'm not judging Jesus. I'm saying that, by the way, Jesus appears quite a bit in the Old Covenant. Um, we see him in Joshua as the captain of the armies of the Lord of hosts. We see him in the fire with the three Hebrew children. Uh, these, uh, appearances of of Jesus. I believe that's who ate lunch with Abraham. And I think it was Genesis 19, 18 or 19. So, **[14:37]** we're not trying to reconcile Jesus with the God of the Old Testament. They they are one in the same. Yahweh of the Old Covenant, Jesus in the New Testament, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. It seems like either Danny is saying the Old Testament is different from the New Testament in terms of the nature of God, or he just ignores it, the Old Covenant altogether, and just says the New Testament teaches in the New Testament. Another thing that we'll see, and we alluded to it earlier, is he talks you see in this one paragraph, and **[15:08]** I'm going to look at it, we see the word mess at least one, two, three times. I can't remember, uh, I think I counted well over a hundred times the word mess, mess maker, my mess, your mess. And it's another word for sin. It's a nicer word for sin. Um and so when somebody commits adultery, no, they don't just commit adultery, but they they prey on somebody in their congregation. They use prophetic words like like the Lord showed me my wife is going to die and **[15:40]** you're going to be my my future wife. So when somebody does that, that's called making a mess. Most of us look at that as horrific, destructive behavior that deeply wounds the soul of a victim, but Danny constantly refers to that as a mess and the person's responsibility is to clean up their mess. And I see in his book almost no emphasis on the scar on the of the wound that take place that **[16:12]** takes place on the soul of the victim. I have spent the last 2 years. I have talked to so many victims of clergy sexual abuse or spiritual abuse and and coming out of that is so difficult, but again, maybe he's written another book on that. But this book, the focus is solely on the {quote} {unquote} messmaker and that's a concern with me. Yeah, I'm going to show a video here. And this this illustrates exactly what **[16:43]** the priorities of restoration look like according to the unpunishable doctrine. There was, you know, there was terror in your eyes. What did you think was going to happen? Well, I you know, I thought my job was done. I I didn't even have any question. I'm like, okay, this is ministry's gone, all that's gone. Do whatever you need to do to clean this up with your wife and kids. Like I wasn't even my thing. You asked me a question early on actually. We're sitting in your office and you said, "So what does coming back to ministry look **[17:13]** like?" And I I I surprised you even asked that question because I didn't think that was even on the table. So, immediately he's asking Ben Armstrong, what does coming back to ministry look like? I mean, this is this is this is immediate. I happen to know Sarah was not asked the same question. What do you think about Ben Armstrong coming back to ministry? This is goes to what you're talking about, Ron. The jurisprudence here is not about um **[17:47]** it's not about restoring those who have been emotionally scarred by abuse from somebody who represented to them Christ, who was to them a spiritual father, who is there's a betrayal on such a level that goes so deep to the soul. And rather than having the first question asked, why what can we do to restore you, Sarah? What can we do to make this community a safe place for you to heal, Sarah? Instead it is, what does coming back to ministry look like? **[18:18]** Well, why? Well, because he he seemed repentant. He seemed repentant. And um if you notice who's at that table, um you've got Danny and you've got Ben and Heather. There's a there's somebody else that's missing in this great testimony of of reconciliation and restoration. Who's missing at that table? Yeah. Well, obviously Sarah is missing there and uh you know, **[18:49]** I've a book coming out soon called uh when shepherds pray, p r e y. And we have a whole chapter on restoration. And one of the first things I say is, why is the first question that people ask? You see it all the time. Can he be restored to ministry? So so recently there was uh Ted Shuttlesworth Jr. uh who is some sort of new prosperity preacher him and his wife have a congregation and he has **[19:20]** I don't know if it was with somebody in the congregation but he's he's at a moral failure he committed some level of adultery adultery. Um and in the very first article the very first response from him and his wife is yeah we hope he'll be back. You know in in the meantime you know the wife is going to run the church it's like the ministry must go on at all cost and that is deeply concerning that's what what Danny is asking you know Ben what does ministry why are you even **[19:51]** talking about that let's just talk about actually Ben has the better response my I have no ministry if I don't have my wife and kids that's what they should be talking about not a restoration ministry but you're right there's somebody who isn't there because she is gone. For some weird reason in that video Danny represents Sarah as still being a part of the community now I don't know if he is lying or if he just doesn't know but she is long gone she stated so it **[20:23]** happened in I think 2009 she stayed around for I think about a year and then she's gone. And then here this video is made I think in 2018 um this is seven years after she left and he presents her as still part of the community the last place she was was the defiantly working in the coffee shop saying I'm not going to disappear I'm going to be here you're going to have to deal with me you're going to have to see me but eventually she did move on and bless her heart she got married has kids and **[20:55]** she she's a wonderful young woman thank God for his healing power but we see who is it in there you have you have been who is being restored. And he's getting his dream job back without any regard for the soul of Sarah. Where she at today in 2018? Well, as I guess she's part of the community, but she's actually not. Nobody's followed up on her. Nobody's called her up. Nobody from the HR department. I think there's one or two people in there, you know, **[21:26]** massive church and they have two people in the HR department. Nobody has checked up on >> So, in the meantime, no no one's checked on her on her. Uh Heather says something insightful in this in this video that I think we should we would do well to pay attention to. Let Let me show it here. a good choice is in there. >> [laughter] >> And it takes a lot of good choices. It really does. I I mean, I was always sometimes questioning in the back of my **[21:57]** mind, as I mentioned, Danny had just wrote a book about what we're talking about, the Culture of Honor. >> I had just written Culture of Honor the year before, I think. So, I thought maybe they were keeping Ben along because they were testing out if the book really worked. >> propping this book up. Yeah, yeah. Wait, if we don't do this, like I just wrote a book that says this works. So, no, but I beyond Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Yeah, what there's a there's a **[22:28]** proverb in there somewhere um about uh you know, out of the I guess out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks or uh there's a little bit of truth in every uh you are the wordsmith, so you probably know the the idiom I'm thinking of. Yeah. Uh uh it's I think the one I'm thinking of is it's funny because it's true. So, they're they're all laughing because they know that's what's going on. You know, she's she's she's clocking the fact that he he is he is propping up **[23:02]** this idea. This again goes to Danny's view of of God. Um God does not punish. Um humans punish and it is a human punishment paradigm that we see playing out in the Old Testament, but Jesus comes to correct the narrative of our humanity's false view of God. That's the That is what he's saying. So, um for Danny under punishment, it is upholding the rules, pain is inflicted to **[23:32]** impose worldly sorrow, um repentance is irrelevant, forgiveness is irrelevant, um it punishment requires submission of control, punishment requires the stopping bad behavior, um and good behavior is compliance and manipulative, it punishment is powerless, it's fear-driven, it has the goal of self-preservation, and is an external law imposed um on on people, whereas discipline is all about **[24:03]** restoring the relationship. Pain is embraced and it leads to godly sorrow, repentance is essential, forgiveness is essential, it requires responsibility and self-control, it transforms the heart, and good behavior is the fruit of love, um where punishment is powerless, discipline is powerful, and he kind of um that's his language for the locus of control being internal versus external. So, if you're powerless, you have an external locus of control, whereas if **[24:34]** you're powerful, you have an internal locus of control. Um so, uh discipline is love-driven, the goal of discipline is connection, and it is an internal law that is coming from the heart. Now, so, here's the question. I think that we would we would agree, right, that there is a form of punishment that is unhealthy. It is an It is imposing upon people a consequences for **[25:04]** their sins whereas where forgiveness would bring an alleviation or an abatement of consequences that would otherwise be justifiable. I think that I think that goes without saying. You and I deserve hell. We deserve eternal separation from God himself. We deserve that. But because of God's mercy, he took upon himself the punishment for our sins. You know, tipping my hand here, I believe in penal substitutionary atonement. **[25:35]** Like he bore in himself the consequence for our sins. The one who would be our judge bore our took our sentence. And in so doing, he gave us righteousness. He gave us his life. So, we believe that. We're not in any way contradicting that. The problem is that when we take this um when we take this very narrow view of what punishment is versus discipline, um we and we say that God has never been a punisher, **[26:07]** um we make mincemeat out of the Bible. And so when when God says of himself, he proclaims his name to Moses. This is God's introduction of his of his core attributes, his very nature to Moses, the the covenant mediator, the one who is really truly introducing Yahweh to humanity through the people of Israel. He has this this moment where the Lord **[26:39]** is is for really for the first time telling us who he is. Mhm. And he passes by Moses and he shows him his goodness and he proclaims his name, which is his essential nature, his his essential attributes, his character, who he really is to to Moses. And he says this, "The Lord" This is from Exodus 34 verses 6 and 7. "The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, 'The Lord, the Lord, a God **[27:09]** merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.'" So, we see all of that like the the merciful God has always been there. He doesn't change natures from one covenant to the next. Um but, "who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the **[27:40]** children's children to the third and the fourth generation." And so, um visit in the sense that's used here is an idiom for to to punish. Well, >> Um actually, >> if you if you look at the NIV, the NIV says, "Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished. He punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents." So, yes, you're right. The word visit there could just as well be translated punished. Mhm. Yeah. So, the idea here is that it is God's justice in **[28:12]** the form of punishment is presented as being intrinsic to his nature. It was a declaration of his name. And so, uh I want to read maybe just a uh couple of quotes from some commentaries. This is from the New American Commentary uh by Stewart Douglas on Exodus. "God then issued a corrective against the natural human tendency to accept grace on the assumption that because an infinite God can produce an **[28:43]** infinite amount of grace, sin has no significant consequence. This corrective is introduced simply by the normal Hebrew word for and, which the NIV justifiably translates as yet, but which is not a strong adversative word. Perhaps an even more revealing, even if tendentious translation would be something like forgiving wickedness, rebellion, and sin, and at the same time not letting anybody off. Making sure **[29:15]** that the guilty get what they deserve. So, God is merciful and an avenger. He is a merciful God and a punishing God. He is a just God. And this this makes absolutely perfect sense to anybody who has undergone severe victimization. I think everybody wants God to be all mercy all the time until somebody severely violates a family member of theirs. And then something on the inside of them this this recognition of **[29:49]** this basic human moral intuition when we realize that if somebody has committed rape and then murder, and then the judge says, "You know what? I'll forgive you. You know, I can tell you're totally reformed. You're never going to do this again." And let's say he knows with perfect knowledge the guy's never going to do it again and he's totally reformed. And so therefore punishment is unnecessary because all we need is restorative justice. All we need is somebody to just be totally reformed. And then and then we're good. We would instinctively **[30:20]** have this righteous outcry to say, "That is wrong." Why? Because when we recognize that punishment for the guilty is is just, we are we have an instinctive moral intuition that that is what is right. And what if the murdered person was a family member, a loved one, someone that you deeply cared about? They're gone from your life. Uh yes, you would assume that there would be justice and you **[30:51]** would call it injustice if the judge said, "You know what? He's He He really gets it. He really gets it that he should not have murdered your wife or your daughter or your friend, so we're going to we're going to let him go." You know, um it's again, it's not that we're we do get the difference between uh discipline and punishment. And those words can be interchangeable interchangeable. I could say to my child uh who's my three children are in their 30s. But when they were younger, I could say **[31:21]** to them, "You know, if you do that, you're going to be punished. If you do that, you're going to be be disciplined." They understood those words to mean the same thing. Uh but there is a difference. If I walk in the house and I catch one of my children doing something they shouldn't do and I just fly off the handle and I rip my belt out and I just start hitting them violently and and we want to call that punishment. Well, that's bad. We all agree that that is not constructive. That is not going to help them uh in any way. Now, if I sit down with my child **[31:51]** and I say, "You know what? Here's what you did that is wrong. Let me explain to you why it was wrong and there is going to be a consequence and you're going to have to, you know, I'm going to take away your your phone or your TV privileges or whatever for, you know, 7 days." And uh and then after 7 days we're going to have another talk. Okay, yeah, that's that's a better way to go about it. But let's not pretend that God does not punish. We see in the the very first story in the Bible is **[32:22]** these two people, Adam and Eve, disobey God. And as a result, there's a huge consequence. Sin enters into the world. Now, Danny would say, "Yeah, that God didn't punish them. They're just experiencing the consequences of sin." And and then he does a similar thing with Cain and Abel. Cain kills his brother and um no, I look at that as God punishing Cain. And God punished Adam and Eve for their sin. And yes, Jesus comes later and redeems it, but one of the great **[32:52]** examples is King David. You know, if I had a nickel for every time somebody fell into sin and people say, "Well, what what what about King David? You know, God restored him." You know, I I in my book that's coming out, we call it the King David deal. You don't want the King David deal. Nobody should want Anybody who says, "I can be restored to ministry because David was restored to ministry." They have no idea what they're saying because David suffered **[33:22]** even after he really, really repented. In fact, he repented so good that it's recorded in one of the most famous Psalms in world history, Psalm 51, "Create in me a clean heart, oh God." Keith Green wrote a beautiful song about it. I mean, everybody knows Psalm 51. Yet, the son died. And then one of his other sons raped his daughter. And then the the his half sister. And then Absalom kills Amnon, his half **[33:54]** brother, because uh Tamar was his uh full sister. And then he gets banished from the kingdom. He comes back, but then he tries to steal the kingdom. It's a I hate to use the word, but it's a real mess for David. You do not want the King David deal because he suffered greatly. And and by the way, David's sin wasn't just what he did with Bathsheba. It wasn't even just what he did with Uriah. There was a bunch of other men that went with her with Uriah to the walled city **[34:24]** who also got killed. David had a lot of blood on his hands. And God punished him. Yeah. If Let's look at 2 Samuel chapter 12 verses 7 through 14 and we see exactly God's response to David's repentance. Um Nathan said to David, "You are the man. Um you know, you're the man, David. Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, I anointed you king over Israel and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul and I gave you your master's house and **[34:56]** your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. Why have you despised the word of the Lord to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to **[35:27]** be your wife. Thus says the Lord, behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun. David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin. You shall not die." So there's the **[35:58]** there's the the forgiveness that is extended to David, but the consequences of his sin was not removed. Look at verse 14. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die. Unpunishable. Yeah, and if you look at the Israelites, who you know, they they yeah, can't find Moses. He's been gone for, you know, almost 40 days and they build a golden **[36:29]** calf and a a lot is a lot of Israelites died after that. And then there's numbers 25, famous story where Phineas, the grandson of Aaron, comes into the camp and sees Omri and Cosbi, a Midian woman, they're together doing what you shouldn't do and he he kills both of them, which stops the plague, but I think it was 23,000 people had already died because of the plague that God visited visited, there's that word again, upon the Israelites **[37:00]** because of their sin. So, to to reinvent God as a non-punisher, that he never punishes, I don't think is an honest reading of scripture. Now, what what someone might say, particularly if you come from the idea that, you know, you know, if anything contradicts Jesus, then then you have every right to question it. Someone might say, well, in the New Testament, you know, things change cuz it's a new God and it's an everything's new, but and and nobody gets punished. How would you respond to **[37:31]** that? Yeah, um, I would just ask Ananias and Sapphira what they think about it. Well, unfortunately, they can't answer because they got punished. Yes. Yeah, or Jezebel from from Revelation 3 or you know, you see God exacting punishment. I would say I would also just point to a major theological issue with that is that when God says **[38:02]** uh vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay. He's making a statement about his nature and who he is and what he will do. Well, he hasn't read he hasn't read unpunishable and he needs to go through some counseling. It's [laughter] some inner healing. Cuz well, the The is the only hope we have is the wrath of God. The only reason I can forgive is because I trust that God is just. The The reason that we can let go of vengeance ourselves is is because we **[38:33]** can say, "God, in your hands is justice. You You can judge and you will judge rightly." Now, Danny Silk says this. Um he he paints God not as an active punisher, but as somebody who passively allows somebody who is unrepentant to encounter the consequences of their own decisions. That's how he paints hell. Hell is just That's what you chose. You chose to go away from God and um it's not God actively punishing you from your sins. **[39:03]** It's just God allowing the natural consequences of your sins to be visited upon you. He is just sort of like, "Well, whatever." He removes his hand. So, this is his quote. "Remember, God's wrath and punishment are always a matter always a matter of him removing his hand and honoring our sinful choices and their consequences. So, Silk makes Go ahead. >> Let me just comment on that real quick because I remember back in Bible school that our Old Testament professor, who was a **[39:36]** scholar in ancient Semitic languages, particularly Hebrew, and he would say that when people claim that the God of the Bible is He doesn't judge. He just He just He allows you to be He allows Satan in. He First of all, there really isn't a whole lot of difference because if he could present prevent it and yet he doesn't, um then then he is actively allowing it. But, there The Hebrew does not say that. This idea that that hell it hell is just what you make it. Hell is, you know, you **[40:06]** chose to allow God to remove his hand. No, hell is an active uh action on behalf of God to disobedience. Just as salvation is, just as granting forgiveness is, it is an action on the part of a holy God. Yeah, and it is good. It It is an active good. We We would say that if if we all adopted this this sort of jurisprudence that, you know, to **[40:36]** um to be the agent of punishment is is to be part of the punishment paradigm for somebody who's unrepentant. Um like that's not what we do. Instead, we just allow the natural consequences uh of somebody's actions to befall them. Um how can we justify the imprisonment of people by the state? Um you know, for somebody who's part of like this NAR sort of dominionist uh attitude that **[41:07]** it's like, "Hey, this is the New Testament jurisprudence. What we need to do is apply this this new covenant framework to all the seven mountains of influence, and then we were God forbid to get our hands on that government mountain." Um and then start start to apply this this same jurisprudence, suddenly the unpunishable uh attitude towards the Ben Armstrongs and the Jonathan Weltons would be applied to civil government as **[41:37]** well. And here's the thing, if it's not good for civil government, it's not good for church government because good is good. I like the context doesn't change the the fundamental nature of what is good. We can't say punishment is good for the government to do, but it's bad for the church to do. No, good is good. And what does the Bible say about the the authorities? It says the authorities that exist, Romans 13, uh the ex- authorities that exist have been **[42:10]** established by God. That That That leads me to believe that they're doing what God wants them to do. They're not doing what he doesn't want them to do. And and what is that? Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority, meaning the government, is rebelling against what God has instituted. And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in **[42:42]** authority is God's servant for you for your good. For your good, for the good of society. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. Get ready. They are God's servants, agents of wrath. God's servants, agents of wrath. God's servants, not Satan's servants. Agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. So, now this idea that that the secular **[43:14]** government is this this evil thing that God is tolerating and somehow through some mystical way he's using them. Um that doesn't seem what to to be what Paul is saying here. Yes, secular governments can be evil and they can be noble. Uh but he's that but the principle is noble. And the principle is that you need governments in society so that you can have a proper functioning society. And part of their job is to punish criminal criminal activity. **[43:45]** Any society that says, "We're not going to punish criminal activity if the person says sorry." uh is not going to have a uh uh a great society. And if we say as New Testament leaders and elders, "Well, that's the secular government. Let them do what God's called them to do. But we as leaders, we know better." See, here's what happens. That's where you get to taking a pet and saying, you know, we're not going to report you to the authorities and ruin your whole life. You're just 22 years **[44:16]** old, you know, and yes, you did this to a 3-year-old and that was bad, and you also did it to a 5-year-old and that was really bad, but we're going to work with you. No, you report them to the authorities and the best if you really care about that person and you care about your congregation, then the grace of God for them is going through the authorities and being, dare I say, punished. Yeah. Yeah. I I I want to give I want to be fair in my **[44:47]** in my criticism here. Um Danny I think would agree with everything that we just said, but also disagree in the same book. So, in page 189 >> it's confusing. That's why it's confusing cuz you're reading the book and you're going, well, yeah, I I kind of see that, but then the conclusion is the concerning part. Exactly. So, he says in in page 189, "Our job as shepherds is to protect innocent people from harm. Amen. **[45:17]** Like parents, we feel responsible if one of our kids gets hurt on our watch. So, when we perceive a threat, we confront and extract it as quickly as we can. However, we must remember that the mess maker And there's there's that word again. is also one of our kids. When leaders err on the side of protecting the group against the mess maker without being able to see that the person is repenting, **[45:47]** they can end up punishing the mess maker and cutting them off from reconciliation." Um there we see there we see it, right? It's like here he recognizes the responsibility of a pastor, of a shepherd, to protect the community. But if we that So, that was page 189. If we just go a few pages back in page 129, he says, "I'm not here to try to protect other people from you." And I think at **[46:19]** at its core, what we see here is a failure of discernment, a failure to recognize when there are wolves, a failure to recognize when there's true repentance versus faux repentance. And then And then finally, a failure to recognize when it doesn't actually matter whether it is true repentance versus faux repentance. I'll I'll say this, there's this um you know, theological debate that people are having right now um about whether people **[46:51]** should whether it's biblical that somebody could be restored to ministry uh versus not restored to ministry. Is it biblical to say somebody is permanently disqualified for ministry if in fact um the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness and and we are forgiven? If somebody is totally forgiven and they have been transformed, who's anybody to say, this is the argument that Danny makes in this book. Who's anybody to say that they can't be um restored back to their uh **[47:22]** um uh their their former position. >> Yeah, so for instance, uh uh Danny says this, "People are naturally wary of that By the way, this is page 199 of the book. People are naturally wary about a fallen leader returning to a position of influence, especially once they find out that he is a repeat offender." Yeah, duh. "However, often this wariness is an expression of the punishment paradigm. The reality is that many leaders today **[47:53]** are repeat offenders without losing their position. They are just successful in hiding their sin or sinning in an acceptable way. For some reason, the sins of fear, anger, self-preservation, idolatry, gluttony, lust, and pride often get a pass in certain leaders. The sheer number of leaders regularly using porn in this present generation is staggering, but if we don't know about it or we struggle with the same things ourselves, we continue to trust, empower, and follow these broken **[48:23]** leaders. Wrong. Tell me what you think about that. Uh it's a horrible argument. It's it's an absurd argument. What he's saying is that because some people don't get caught, we shouldn't be too hard on people who do get caught. Um that's like saying um there's a guy that has been shoplifting from my local grocery store, and he's just really really good at it, and we can't figure out who he is, we don't know his identity, and then I go in there, and I take a loaf of bread, and I get caught, **[48:54]** and I say, "Well, wait a minute. There's this other guy out there that you guys can't catch, so you got to let me go, too." So, what what Danny seems to be saying is that if if we can't hold everybody accountable that we don't know about who who might be committing adultery, who might be abusing sheep, who might be abusing children, then it just doesn't make sense. It's it's a really bad argument, and I I remember reading that same thing and underlining it myself. But, I want to go back a little bit further to what you said. Um because somebody could say, "Well, **[49:26]** what's the big deal about, you know, uh yeah, I do have to protect my kids, and you know, what if the thing that the person did to did against them wasn't really that big of a deal? What if it was a minor issue? They gossiped about them, and then they apologized." Yeah, we want them to be reconciled and and to grow in that. That's not what the book is about. The book has two case studies in it. One is Ben Armstrong, the other one is Jonathan Welton. Uh with Ben, they called it an affair, **[49:58]** but then they find out Danny allegedly finds out in the book, and I say allegedly because some people are saying that the Bethel leaders knew about his first quote unquote affair. But in the book, he finds out, oh, 12 years earlier, when you first got married, you also committed adultery. And what did he say? We hit paydirt. When we you hit pay Like like he's so excited about getting that piece of information, it doesn't enter his mind how destructive adultery is. **[50:30]** What what what the pain, you know, Heather decided to push it under the carpet, sweep it under the carpet, and they just pretended Yeah. That is just way too simplistic to to uh categorize or explain the pain of betrayal the way he did. So, I want to be clear. The sin he is focusing on in the book is the sin of adultery and and clergy sexual abuse. We we now know, maybe he didn't know, but we know now **[51:02]** that what Ben did would be classified, because we I believe, Sarah, this is my opinion based on believing Sarah's testimony, believing Ross's testimony, what they explained would be classified as grooming. Um with Jonathan Welton, the first uh situation that he had, and we'll get into that later, was with somebody under his authority. And then he did other very uncomfortable things with other women who were under his authority, and and to men as well, not necessarily sexual, but but but **[51:33]** manipulative. So, that's what the book is about. So, yeah, let me be real clear. If there is somebody who is going to sexually abuse my children, you better believe I'm going to keep them out of my house. I'm not going to say, "Well, I love the mess maker, too." No, if you're a mess maker, stay away from my house, stay away from my church. My job is Yes, there is redemption, and we believe in that, but our primary calling What do they call **[52:04]** us? What is another word for pastor? I can't remember. Starts with an S. I think it I think you're thinking of shepherd. Shepherd. Thank you so much. Shepherd, and they you know, that that that that the responsibility of the shepherd is not to the wolves. It is not to the lions. It is to protect the sheep. And my job as a shepherd is not to protect my buddy who committed CSA, and as you know, I was a sadly **[52:36]** involved in a situation where somebody very dear and close to me uh committed some level of CSA, and and it was you know, I had to deal with it. I had to take the side of the victim. Why? Because that's what a shepherd is supposed to do. He does not cover for his ministry buddies, and I think that's the problem we're seeing in places like Bethel, where they covered for Shawn Bowlds for all these years, where they cover for each other, and and and I really believe why it's so important that we're talking about this right now **[53:07]** is because John Mark, I think it's far worse than we ever imagined. If if, you know, you and I both had similar visions, you know, for me it was in 2020. I don't know when you had yours, but but they both had to do 2021, but they both had to do with uh destruction coming upon the church at the by the hand of God, at least in my vision, um punishing sin within the leadership. And I just if you had told me back then that it was as bad at what as it is, I **[53:39]** mean, Mike Bickle was my He was my in the charismatic circus, I could always say but Mike Bickle. Love that guy. Look, you know, good good solid. So, make no mistake. The issue that Danny is saying is not that big of a deal in his book or I don't want to put words in his mouth that he is referring to as the mess maker that we have a responsibility to is somebody who is feeding on the sheep. Mhm. Right. And as you said, uh there **[54:13]** part of the lack of wisdom that we see present in this book is nobody is ever a wolf. As long as they say sorry, there's nobody's ever a wolf. He says this, "The mess maker is also one of our kids." Well, what if they're not? What if they're not? So, there's the other thing here is it's not just about personal sins. I mean, it in the quote that we read earlier, he said, um he said this, so I'll read it again. "For some reason, the sins of fear, anger, self-preservation, **[54:44]** idolatry, gluttony, lust, and pride often get a pass in certain leaders." Well, the sin of fear, anger, self-preservation, idolatry, a lot of times those uh those sins can be personal sins where there is not a victim. But, when you have abused your position of authority to separate take advantage of somebody under your spiritual care, you have violated trust on such a level that to reinstate that person back into ministry is to gamble with the souls and the lives of God's **[55:16]** people. It is evil. It is not It It is less than wise. It is It is wrong to do that. And to say something like, "Well, you don't know that person's heart, right?" Um you don't know whether or not they're actually repentant. Um true. We don't know. Maybe they are totally >> we err we err on the side of protecting the sheep, not the mess maker. >> That's right. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Right. I like the reality is we don't we don't know people's hearts. We **[55:48]** can't tell when somebody we can't always tell when somebody's truly repentant. So, Danny is simultaneously trying to play the role of counselor with this Rogerian unconditional positive regard that is meant to be therapeutic to the person that he's he's in front of. And that's important for somebody who needs a counselor. But if that counselor, that therapist, also has the duty of protecting the community, then they are in two roles that are actually at **[56:18]** cross-purposes with each other. And so, this is a conflict of interest, and we see that that conflict of interest plays out in both of the cases that that Danny Silk lays out to support the ideas of his book. Um and but so, if we have this idea that well, this mess maker is one of our kids, too. Let's compare that with God's heart. Who God Is there anybody that God does not **[56:50]** love? Is there Is there anybody that God is not Lord over? Is not creator over? But let's look at his heart from Matthew chapter 24, verses 45 through 51. Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has set over his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will **[57:21]** set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, "My master is delayed," and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will restore him in a spirit of gentleness like one of his No, to will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites in that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of **[57:51]** teeth. This is God's heart for protecting his people. That he would he would exact punishment. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. He will exact punishment on those leaders who abuse their position of authority in order to take advantage or of those who are underneath them. We see the same uh attitude in Ezekiel 34, but Ron, why don't you share a comment on >> uh I was uh that was going to be my **[58:21]** comment is that take a look at Ezekiel 34 where, you know, God you know, pulls up pulls pulls no punches when it comes to his anger at the shepherds of Israel because they're feasting on the sheep. Now, let's just suppose because again, I think people who if they if they're seeing us for the first time, they might think that we're being a bit harsh. We we do care for the Ben Armstrongs of this world and for the Jonathan Weltons and we do want them to repent and we do want them to be restored 100% to Jesus. **[58:52]** We we love them, we care for them, we don't think that they should be if they are professing repentance and walking through the steps, then they they have a place in the New Testament church to be loved, to be part of the community. What we're saying is this is that you prioritize the sheep over a broken shepherd, over a shepherd who is even if he fell and acted like a wolf, even if it was only one time, you prioritize the sheep. And so in the in **[59:22]** the case of Ben Ben Armstrong and Sarah, the very fact that they stayed in the same congregation, I mean that is that is malpractice as pastoral malpractice because what they should have done is they should have sat down with Sarah. First of all, they should have discerned it that it was not an affair. They're simply Now I I I believe she has said that she sat down with them. She told them what happened. Um and and we've all heard her story by now. I mean it's very clear that he acted upon her and she **[59:55]** froze and then he acted upon her second time. Uh this time he got her drunk and then tried to pull her into a bedroom where I can only assume that he wanted to have sexual relations with her and she said no and and he still pulled her I mean it's criminal what he did. He still after saying no, he pulled her into the bedroom and again it didn't go as far as as uh intercourse, but it's horrible behavior and they just left the two of them in the same congregation. Again, I don't know exactly how much they knew. I know **[60:26]** that she had to walk into a room and Bethel, if you're listening, boy, you need to address this. She walked into a room with six to eight men who then asked her what happened. Not one of them could bring their wife in? They couldn't have a female psychologist, an advocate, somebody there to hold her hand to give her some tissues, but just a group of men asking her about something just so intimate and horrible and traumatic in her life. So, what you should have done **[60:58]** is said, "Hey Ben, we love you. We care for you. We're not going to throw you out, but you can no longer be in this congregation. We we have other Bethel congregations and we're going to send you to to one of our other ones and and we're going to get you the care that you need to restore you as a man, as a person, as a believer, but you This poor girl is working in the coffee shop and Ben is says he's bemoaning, yeah, I had to do my mentoring." No, you didn't. No, you didn't. There's nobody No other **[61:29]** place in the universe that you could have done mentoring with an an kind of shocking that you're even doing mentoring at that point. I don't know how long that is after >> Exactly. >> But no, you did not have to use the coffee shop. God bless Sarah for being basically saying, "I'm not going to disappear. I am going to take this job in the coffee shop. You're not going to get rid of me." And and again, I have to go back and listen to the interview with Danny, but I seem to remember him kind of bemoaning that he had to see her when **[62:01]** when he would do mentoring in the coffee shop. Yeah. Um Exactly right. Exactly right. Is it What's interesting to me is that we don't seem to have these theological debates about restoration because people People are like, "Well, if they're If you're forgiven, let's just put them right back in ministry." We don't have those same theological debates about restoring child abusers to nursery ministry. I wonder why that is. No one's asking **[62:32]** for the Bible verse that says, "Well, what Bible verse are you leaning upon?" You know, Jonathan Welton and and Joel Richardson had a text exchange that Joel published where Joel says, "You know, you're you're permanently disqualified from ministry." Jonathan Welton says, "Well, you know, what verse are you What verse are you using to create that theology for yourself?" Is the Is the direct >> have responded with 1 Corinthians 9:27 where Paul says, "I discipline my body. **[63:05]** I beat it daily meaning that he he controls his appetites, which would include food and sex and things like that. >> [snorts] >> I beat my body daily and discipline it lest after I have preached to others I myself become disqualified. So, scholars argue on exactly what he means by disqualified. You know, for me, he's talking about preaching. I discipline my body because if I don't after I preach I will be **[63:38]** disqualified. So, I would say that what Paul is saying that there in in 1 Corinthians 9 Let me finish my thought. I'm I'm I'm arguing with myself. In 1 Corinthians 9 um he clearly says that he can be disqualified. Uh we're not quite sure what he's talking about in terms of what actions. They would be actions that prioritize his flesh over his spirit. So, in 1 Corinthians 6 he is connecting these ideas of not disciplining your appetites **[64:09]** with the uh the horrendousness of sexual sin. He says, "You say the food for stomach stomach and the stomach for food and God will destroy them both. The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord and the Lord for the body. But his But by his power God raised the Lord from the dead and he will also raise us. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ themselves? Shall I take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? So, now he jumps two three **[64:40]** chapters later and he's talking about not disciplining his flesh leading to disqualification. So, I do believe there are spiritual uh precedents for being disqualified for ministry, but again, it goes back to what I was saying. >> on to it. Well, add on to it. Paul's qualifications for leadership in 1 Timothy chapter 3. The saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach, uh the husband of one wife, **[65:11]** sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his children submissive. For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into **[65:43]** a snare of the devil. So, all of these qualifications, above reproach, husband of one wife, you know, temperate, self-controlled, like all of these things are violated when somebody commits clergy sexual abuse. Yeah, and again, we we do care for that person and we do want to help this person, but there is certain circles in the body of believers. I think Rick Joyner espouses a theology or a belief or a philosophy that the ultimate goal, Galatians 6:1, is that we restore in **[66:14]** gentleness those who have fallen into sin, that that the ultimate goal is to get them back into ministry. It when we have this passion to see a predator or someone who has acted as a predator restored to ministry and, you know, in the case of Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley, Rick said in his he wrote about this after Todd was exposed, I don't know, for the third or fourth time, back in 2019, he said that I already I knew the Lord showed me that that that Todd would have more problems sexually. **[66:46]** But the Lord gave him a verse, a righteous man falls down seven times, but he gets up. And he's he's saying, "Well, that's Todd. He keeps getting up." That is not talking about sexual sin. That's about somebody who is doing the right thing and gets beat up by life. And they keep going. They don't stay down. They keep going. It is not talking about somebody who is perverse, who was using prophecy or their their position in ministry to get women to take off their tops and send them pictures or far worse things than that because we if **[67:19]** you take that that idea and you say we just got to get them back in ministry because he's an evangelist, the call, the people he's going to reach. Are you not worried about all those interns that were defiled or or or or fans that he connected with online and got them to do unclean things or would requested that they would do unclean things and then they blocked him? How do you think those people felt afterwards? Oh my gosh, I just connected with Todd Bentley who I just adored and loved as an evangelist **[67:51]** and he asked me to do something weird. You don't get over that in in 10 minutes, Rick. And so you seem to prioritize the need for Todd to be back in ministry over protecting God's flock and that's why probably, notice everyone I said probably, you were being sued right now by former minors who were abused in your ministry allegedly because you tolerated. **[68:21]** But if we protected the sheep and not the mess maker so much, I think we would see a lot less sexual sin. If we had higher standards on restoration to ministry, like for me, I'll just tell you right now if I ever cheat on my wife, I'm done. I'm done. I'm out of ministry. Not I don't even just mean clergy sexual abuse. Any type of adulterous behavior, I'm out. I'm done. And and that's my standard. If we had a standard like that, I think we'd see a lot less. But in a lot of these **[68:53]** circles John Mark, I think they wink at it. I think you know, Rick Joyner said recently in a message to MacArthur Jones who committed horrific CSA against a mother and daughter at the same time. He said this is something men do. No, it's not written not men of God. Men of God for the most part don't do this. We control it. Yeah, listen, I'm attracted to women. I'm a man, but we have self-control. Right, and it is a prerequisite to be an **[69:24]** elder to have self-control to be temperate self-control >> what was Paul what was Paul thinking? I mean, how dare Paul put such a high standard on men? >> spirit he had. I [laughter] know. You got to be faithful to your wife? Does he Does he even know how hard I mean, he didn't have a wife. So, he doesn't know how hard that is. But no, that's that's the minimum. The minimum is you don't cheat on your wife. Yeah, it's it's it obviously obviously it's absurd. Um that that we would have this but nevertheless **[69:56]** people are being very pedantic and is saying well, what is your biblical justification? And you know, though we've given the biblical justification, I'll even say this. Let's say you disagree with all of the the entirety of the biblical case we just made. Let's say that you just disagree with all that. You say, you know what? You guys are misapplying the scriptures and you're you're isogeting in order to see your your priors inside of the text and we'll say, **[70:27]** okay, for the sake of argument, we'll just grant that. I think that you're wrong, but Um let's do nursery workers now. Um what's your biblical justification for not restoring child abusers to nursery ministry? Yeah. >> What Do you need a Bible verse for it? No, obviously it's absurd to say that. You don't need a >> what I don't know. I'm going to I'm going to give you a little pushback because Chris Vallotton Chris Vallotton **[70:58]** 2 years ago when he was expressing his undying love for a predator, Mike Bickle, who had who had already been known to have been with a 14-year-old or at least been accused. Tammy was it come back and come out in early February and in late February Chris Vallotton is expressing his undying love to Mike I love Mike Bickle, he's my brother. And then he talks about Ben Armstrong and then he says, "And no, we don't put any restrictions on him when it comes to meeting with women." So **[71:29]** >> Right. by that by that standard, I would imagine that they would take >> the same jurisprudence to to to pedophiles, right? They don't. They cuz they intuitively recognize it's a it's an absurdity. They don't do that. Right. But they apply the same jurisprudence to to their adults um people in their care the adult members of their congregation. So So why is there not an argument right now within the zeitgeist? Why is there not **[71:59]** an argument right now about restoring pedophiles to nursery ministry? Well, I think one, we recognize it as intuitively absurd uh because we recognize that to restore a pedophile to nursery ministry is to gamble with the lives of children. And it's utterly reckless. It is utterly evil to do and you should go to jail if you try to do it. And it's the same thing that we're seeing there. The other reason that we're not seeing **[72:30]** that >> And we don't take thieves. We don't take Bernie Madoff he gets born again and we say, "Well, he's dead now." But we don't say, "Hey Bernie, you know, now that you're saved, we're going to put you we're going to make you the treasurer. We're going to make you the the CPA of the No, we don't trust somebody who has been a thief to to count the money. But but by that logic that hey, they've repented they're born again. So we're not going to put any restrictions on Ben when it comes to being if we see him alone with the woman, that won't even raise alarms for us because that's how **[73:01]** much we trust him. Then it should be the same not only for nursery workers, but thieves and and everyone else. Or maybe we just use common sense and we say this person committed adultery at some level when he first got married. Then we have a testimony that he had they what they called an affair. I don't call it that. Um in in 12 years later, maybe we shouldn't put him in situations where he might be tempted. Even if we do bring him back in the ministry, which I would not have done, maybe we should not **[73:32]** encourage him to be alone with women as opposed to walking in the room seeing him alone with the woman with his arm around her and go, "Hey, bless you, Ben." Being in ministry is not that important. The The reason that we are not seeing the the push to restore pedophiles to nursery nursery ministry is is this. There's no vain glory available to people it for nursery ministry. There's The only reason that we have this push is because **[74:02]** because people crave their platforms, they crave the influence, they crave the money that's that's involved, they crave the the glory, and and they think this is my calling. This is what God has called me to do. Shouldn't I be exercising my gifts? You know, if you're a teacher and Jonathan Welton says, "Well, I've been given a teaching gift, should I not exercise that?" There's so many other places where you can use it. It is not that important. It is not that important to be in ministry. I think what we see with a lot of these **[74:33]** guys, I'm thinking of somebody right now who has sadly been exposed as a prophetic fake, liar, and not just that, somebody willing to curse people, you know, God showed me this, God showed me that, when he clearly didn't. Um you you you've you see somebody panicking that they're they're they they're losing their entire platform and they can't do anything else. You know, they're in their late 30s or early 40s and they have no other skills. They're **[75:04]** con men. They've been conning the church and maybe they, you know, at what level did they at one time have an experience with the Lord? I don't know. I believe many of them were at one time walking with the Lord. But now they're they're later on in life and they they have nothing else. They're going to have to go get a a job, you know, collecting grocery carts at the grocery store because they they don't have any other skills and the ministry is a way of making money. It's a way of feeling important. My **[75:38]** place in the community and you're very right that that you don't have that in the nursery. You know, you typically don't get paid and you don't get celebrated. Um So, and that's and that's why it is a red flag when someone says, "I just got to get back into the nursery." Yeah, right. Right. I I think that this reveals the idolatry that we have for for what ministry is. We have a flipped it on its head. No longer is it service to God's sheep. You know, uh **[76:09]** Jesus in reinstating Peter, "Do you love me?" "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you. You know all things." "Then demonstrate your love for me in this way. Take care of my people. Feed my sheep." As shepherds, this is how we demonstrate love for Christ. Is to tend well the people that he loves and gave his life for. To prioritize the re-platforming of people **[76:40]** who have been utterly disqualified by harming his sheep is is to do the opposite of what Christ has called us to do. And in so doing, I believe we are showing contempt for him by the way that we treat his body, by the way that we treat his flock. >> [snorts] >> We are showing contempt for Jesus. That's a strong statement, but I don't think you can refute it. I I think that this is this is **[77:13]** this matters. This matters to Jesus how we treat his people. And we will give an account for what we have done to re-platform predators, to to make this the jurisprudence that it's it's more important that this this predator finds healing and saves his marriage versus the life that he destroyed having a home in a safe place to heal. I'm speaking of Sarah. You know, it it is it is more important and and again, I I think it's worth I'm **[77:45]** grateful that you've done this Ron throughout this conversation. We're coming out really strong here about predators and predation. I God cares about Ben Armstrong. Um God really does care about Ben Armstrong and I I hope and and choose to believe that he truly is repentant, that he wants to serve Jesus and and and love God and love his family well. I I choose to believe that. Um nevertheless, **[78:16]** to reinstate somebody with that track record is to gamble with God's people. And it's just not worth it. It's not worth the risk. Yeah, and if uh this entire book and then this is our motivation here. I'm we're talking about a book that has been used all over the world uh to justify restoring those who have committed clergy sexual abuse. Read the end of the book. That that is the conclusion Danny Silk comes to is we'll **[78:49]** we'll see that we hope to see these people back in ministry. Again, ministry I could I'd be very happy to live without ministry. I don't need ministry. I've I've I've uh It is this idol that we need to let go of. I do love doing what I do. I love teaching the word. I love So, I I love who God has called me to be, but I could live without it. My family is more important, and my relationship with God is even more important. Um but at the end of that book, the book is about **[79:20]** getting people who have committed adultery or committed clergy sexual abuse, getting them back in ministry. And that just has not worked out well in the two cases uh this just briefly again over regarding Ben Armstrong. Danny's whole thing he When did he hit pay dirt? When Ben was honest with him about the first adultery. Said, "Now we hit pay dirt." Except he wasn't honest with you. He wasn't honest with you about the nature of his relationship **[79:52]** with Sarah because you kept calling it an affair. When in fact, clearly she wanted nothing to do with him and and and he is touching her and getting her drunk. So, he wasn't honest with you. So, that really invalidates If you're saying this guy proves that it works, I'm saying it proves that it doesn't. And with Jonathan Welton, you know, well as we will hear later, I'm we you and I know, Mark and I John Mark, we know as a fact that when the pastor who was **[80:24]** pastoring Jonathan Welton got a copy of that book having worked with Danny Silk in a group of other people in Jonathan Welton's life for many years that when they got when he got that book in the mail, it was representing a ministry to Jonathan that he was involved to involved with as if it went great as if they got to the root of things even though it was clearly unfinished and he opens up the package and he's got this book which by the way has still has **[80:54]** a forward of Shawn Bolz and he is shocked that he's being represented in the book. And he had just disfellowshipped Jonathan Welton. So, let me just for those who aren't putting all that together, Danny Silk writes this book. He has two case studies. One is Ben Armstrong, the other is Jonathan Welton and as the book comes out, Jonathan Welton who is this great success story on his way has just **[81:25]** been kicked out of his church by his pastor who was part of that team overseeing his restoration. And yet he didn't Danny didn't say, "Wait a minute, we got to get that book back. We got to get that out out out of print." Or no, we let's just wait and see. Hopefully they'll have a better a better outcome in the future. So, it is my conclusion that there is some dishonesty in putting that book out. Yeah. **[81:58]** Dishonesty, conflict of interest, writing a book about the guy that you're restoring when you claim in the book that you're getting your theology for the book from the guy that you are restoring. Um there's so many conflicts of interest here that to it's it boggles the mind. The common thread I'm seeing here is that when it comes to restoration, victims come last. And I that's the that's the unpunishable **[82:28]** jurisprudence that I think truly needs to be undone. In as we are learning the errors of what led to this downfall within the charismatic movement. Uh unpunishable was the uh was the clearest articulation of what I think has been our modus operandi for a long time. >> [snorts] >> Um this Danny Silk didn't invent this. Um this has been **[82:59]** this has been around for decades. Um the reason that we are going after unpunishable is because we have seen just in stark relief the type of damage that has been done that God is right now exposing within our movement and within our community. And this needs to be undone. Here's here's the reality. Uh Danny Silk has painted a picture of God that has no wrath, does not impose consequences, does not impose punishment **[83:29]** on people. He merely allows them to experience the consequences in a passive sense. And you know, the scripture says about those who worship idols, um those who worship them become like them. I I think that this is what has happened. We Danny and we in the charismatic movement has created this hyper grace of God that has no wrath for sin. And we've become just like him. He has no **[84:00]** justice for victims. He has no vengeance. And we have adopted that exact same mentality, and then we have become like this false God that we've created. And this is truly truly a travesty that we need to repent for.