Biblical Astrology - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Biblical Astrology 🔗 **Source:** [Biblical Astrology](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDjUi4YNP58) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [biblical-studies, astrology, mythology] > author: Data Over Dogma > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDjUi4YNP58 > date created: 2024-12-19 16:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Biblical Astrology >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research Mesopotamian deity Sakut — context/etymology #biblical-studies - [H2] Examine Saturn hexagon conspiracy theories — social media misinformation #fact-check - [H3] Study ancient Jewish zodiacal references — Job, Persian influence #research ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Data Over Dogma YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@DataOverDogma) - [Acts 7:43](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7%3A43&version=NRSV) ## 📝 Summary - Biblical scholars examine Acts 7:43's reference to "the star of your god Rephan/Remphan" - Translation errors from Hebrew to Greek created confusion between deity names (Sakut/Molech, Kaiwan/Rephan) - Ancient worldviews treated stars and planets as divine beings, not inert celestial objects - Modern antisemitic conspiracy theories falsely connect Star of David to ancient idolatry - Biblical texts show henotheistic rather than monotheistic theology ## 📖 Main Content This episode explores the complex translation history behind Acts 7:43, where Stephen quotes Amos 5:25-27 about Israel's idolatrous worship of stellar deities. The original Hebrew text mentions "Sakut your king" and "Kaiwan your star-god," both likely Mesopotamian deities associated with celestial bodies. However, the Greek Septuagint translation altered these names significantly. "Sakut" became confused with the Hebrew word "sukkot" (tents), leading to "tent of Molech." Similarly, "Kaiwan" (possibly Saturn-related) became "Rephan" or variations thereof in Greek manuscripts. This textual confusion has been exploited by modern antisemitic conspiracy theorists who falsely claim the Star of David represents ancient stellar idolatry. The scholars debunk this, noting that Saturn's hexagonal polar pattern wasn't discovered until 1987 via Voyager imagery. More significantly, the discussion reveals how ancient peoples viewed stars and planets as divine beings - "the host of heaven" - rather than distant gas balls. This worldview appears throughout Hebrew Bible texts, suggesting a henotheistic theology where other gods exist but Israel must worship only Yahweh. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Biblical Astrology - Key idea: Exploring stellar references in Acts 7 and ancient astrology - Evidence: "We're picking up where we left off last week, uh, which was in Acts chapter 7" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=150) — [H2] Acts 7:43 Translation Issues - Key idea: Greek Septuagint altered Hebrew deity names significantly - Evidence: "You took along the tent of Moloch and the star of your god Rephan" #### ⏱️ [05:15](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=315) — [H3] Original Hebrew Text in Amos - Key idea: Hebrew version names different deities than Greek translation - Evidence: "You shall take up Sakut, your king, and Kaiwan, your star god" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=525) — [H2] Sakut to Molech Translation Error - Key idea: Mesopotamian deity name confused with Hebrew word for tent - Evidence: "Sakut...looks an awful lot like the Hebrew word for sukkot" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=740) — [H2] Kaiwan to Rephan Deity Substitution - Key idea: Saturn-associated deity replaced with Greco-Roman equivalent - Evidence: "Kaiwan...was probably a deity associated with the planet Saturn" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=930) — [H3] Saturn Hexagon Conspiracy Debunked - Key idea: Modern antisemitic theories lack historical basis - Evidence: "David Godfrey in 1987 pieced together flyby views from the '81 Voyager mission" #### ⏱️ [18:10](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1090) — [H1] Ancient View of Stars as Gods - Key idea: Stars and planets were considered divine beings, not inert objects - Evidence: "The host of heaven...Those are the gods" #### ⏱️ [21:45](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1305) — [H2] Host of Heaven as Divine Army - Key idea: Stars functioned as God's military force in ancient cosmology - Evidence: "The stars are gods that they are God's army" #### ⏱️ [25:00](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1500) — [H2] Deuteronomy's Henotheistic Theology - Key idea: Other gods exist but are assigned to other nations - Evidence: "Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1710) — [H3] Stars Fighting in Battle - Key idea: Divine beings could be summoned for warfare - Evidence: "The stars in their courses fought against Sisera" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1935) — [H3] Hebrew Zodiac and Number 12 - Key idea: Zodiacal influence on Hebrew culture remains questionable - Evidence: "The significance of 12, I think, predates that" #### ⏱️ [36:45](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=2205) — [H2] Magi and Zoroastrian Astrology - Key idea: Matthew validates foreign astrological practices - Evidence: "Their divinatory practices were accurate" #### ⏱️ [40:20](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=2420) — [H2] Lucifer/Venus Translation History - Key idea: "Lucifer" originally meant light-bearer, associated with Venus - Evidence: "There was in the 300s CE a bishop named Lucifer" #### ⏱️ [43:50](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=2630) — [H3] Gnostic Reinterpretations - Key idea: Modern conspiracy theories blend Gnosticism with Luciferian concepts - Evidence: "Certain streams of tradition within Gnosticism reinterpret the Hebrew Bible" ## 📚 References - [Acts 7:43](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7%3A43&version=NRSV) - [Amos 5:25-27](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Amos+5%3A25-27&version=NRSV) - [Deuteronomy 4:19](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+4%3A19&version=NRSV) - [Isaiah 14:12](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14%3A12&version=NRSV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Ancient Hebrew and Greek translators sometimes misunderstood Mesopotamian deity names, creating textual confusion that persists today - Biblical authors viewed stars and planets as divine beings with agency, not merely celestial objects - Modern conspiracy theories exploit translation errors to promote antisemitic narratives about Jewish symbols ## 📰 Newsletter **Biblical Astrology: When Stars Were Gods** Discover how ancient translation errors created lasting confusion about stellar deities in Acts 7:43. Biblical scholars Dan McClellan and Dan Beecher reveal how Hebrew names like "Sakut" and "Kaiwan" became "Molech" and "Rephan" through Greek translation mistakes. More fascinating: ancient peoples viewed stars as divine beings with agency, not distant gas balls. This worldview appears throughout biblical texts, suggesting a more complex theology than simple monotheism. **Key Takeaway:** Understanding translation history helps combat modern misinformation, including antisemitic conspiracy theories about Jewish symbols. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create educational content about textual criticism methods - Education: Workshop on translation challenges in religious texts - Community management: Address misinformation in biblical studies forums #### Community - Contributors: Develop fact-checking resources for religious conspiracy theories - Maintainers: Create accessible explanations of ancient worldviews - Sponsors: Fund academic research into translation history ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Translation errors in ancient texts often reflect cultural and linguistic barriers rather than theological intent - Henotheistic worldviews were more common in ancient Judaism than traditionally acknowledged - Modern conspiracy theories exploit gaps in public knowledge about textual history - Social media amplifies religious misinformation through visual memes and simplified narratives ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of Hebrew, Greek, and Latin manuscript traditions - Archaeological evidence for Mesopotamian deity worship - Social media content analysis of conspiracy theory propagation ### ❓ Questions - How can biblical scholarship better combat religiously-motivated misinformation? - What other translation errors have been exploited for antisemitic purposes? - How did ancient Jewish communities actually view stellar worship practices? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive study of Septuagint translation patterns for deity names - Analysis of social media conspiracy theory networks targeting religious minorities - Archaeological investigation of ancient Jewish astrological practices ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Biblical interpretation requires understanding translation history - Education: Public needs better textual criticism literacy - Security: Religious misinformation poses risks to minority communities - Policy: Social media platforms should address conspiracy theory content targeting religious groups ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None in audio-only format - Improve: Manuscript comparison charts, deity name evolution diagrams, star maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio discussion format - Improve: Clear chapter markers, pronunciation guides #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions, etymological explanations - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, analogies for translation processes #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None identified - Improve: Interactive manuscript comparison tools, translation exercises ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio format naturally accessible - Improve: Detailed transcript with speaker identification #### Media and captions - Present: Audio discussion available - Improve: Professional transcript, chapter markers ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of multiple ancient cultures (Hebrew, Greek, Mesopotamian) - Improve: More context on cultural exchange patterns #### Inclusive language - Present: Academic terminology clearly defined - Improve: Plain language summaries for complex concepts #### Representation - Present: Focus on combating antisemitic misinformation - Improve: Broader discussion of how misinformation affects various religious minorities ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Sound textual analysis of manuscript evidence - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition across multiple biblical texts - Historical reasoning: Careful chronological analysis of translation changes #### Fallacies - None identified: Scholars maintain appropriate scholarly skepticism and evidence-based reasoning #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Academic but accessible, occasionally humorous, respectful of religious traditions while maintaining critical perspective ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present in scholarly discussion - Attack: Scholars critique antisemitic conspiracy theories appropriately - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns identified - Emotional cues: Appropriate concern about religious misinformation ## 🎯 Conclusion This scholarly discussion reveals how ancient translation errors continue to fuel modern misinformation. Understanding that stars were viewed as divine beings in ancient worldviews helps explain biblical texts that seem contradictory to modern monotheistic interpretations. The most important takeaway is recognizing how gaps in public knowledge about textual history enable conspiracy theories targeting religious minorities, particularly antisemitic narratives about Jewish symbols. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Translation errors create lasting theological confusion > [!quote] [Biblical Astrology](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58) by [[Data Over Dogma]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "Sakut your king gets confused for the Hebrew word for tent or tabernacle." Ancient translators' linguistic limitations continue affecting modern biblical interpretation. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=525#H1) #translation #biblical-studies ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Ancient worldviews treated celestial bodies as divine agents > [!quote] [Biblical Astrology](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58) > "The host of heaven...Those are the gods. The stars are gods that they are God's army." Fundamental difference between ancient and modern cosmological understanding. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1305#H2) #cosmology #theology ID:rw_002 ### [H3] Henotheistic theology appears throughout Hebrew Bible > [!quote] [Biblical Astrology](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58) > "Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven." Other gods exist but are assigned to other nations in biblical worldview. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1500#H3) #henotheism #ancient-religion ID:rw_003 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Manuscript traditions preserve translation errors across centuries - Septuagint alterations persist into modern biblical scholarship - Pointer to 8:45 timestamp discussion - Links: [[Textual-Criticism]] [[Translation-History]] #### [Z2] Religious misinformation exploits knowledge gaps about textual history - Antisemitic conspiracy theories leverage translation confusion - Pointer to 15:30 Saturn hexagon discussion - Links: [[Religious-Misinformation]] [[Antisemitism]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research Mesopotamian astral religion practices — comparative study #fleeting #research - [F2 --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] [music] [00:02] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen. [00:04] >> And I'm Dan Beecher. [00:05] >> And this is Data Over Dogma, where we [00:08] increase public access to the academic [00:10] study of the Bible and religion, and we [00:12] combat the spread of misinformation [00:14] about the same. How go things, Dan? [00:16] >> Things go well. Uh I'm looking forward [00:18] to this. We're we're picking up where we [00:20] left off last week, uh, which was in [00:23] Acts chapter 7, [00:25] >> uh, not last week, but last whatever [00:28] episode segment thing, last video. Uh, [00:32] so I'm excited about this one because [00:34] this one's very different and all about [00:39] like magic and astrology and crazy stuff [00:41] like that. So, I'm looking forward to [00:43] chatting about it. Uh, and also, we'll [00:46] get some anti-semitism in there. We'll [00:48] get everything. It's going to be it's [00:49] going to be a hoot. [00:51] >> So, uh let's dive in with what is that? [00:56] [music] [00:58] >> And today's What is that uh is a star. [01:03] Now, you and I have talked before about [01:06] references to stars. We talked about the [01:08] star of David. [01:09] >> Yes. There's a new star search [01:11] evidently. [01:13] >> Okay. [01:13] >> Started up. [01:14] >> Boom. That's great. Uh there's a star [01:16] that was over a certain infant's house. [01:19] However, that ends up working. Uh but [01:23] this is a different star and it's a [01:25] little confusing. We're we're still in [01:27] Acts chapter 7 as we said. Uh but now [01:31] we're looking for [01:33] >> uh we're we're looking at verse 43. [01:38] >> Yes. [01:38] >> Guide me in. I don't know what's going [01:40] on here. [01:40] >> Okay. So, um, you've got we're we're in [01:43] Steven's, um, review of the history of [01:46] Israel, and we're talking about the fact [01:49] that Israel was slipping back into [01:51] idolatry. And verse 42 says, "God turned [01:54] away from them and handed them over to [01:57] worship the host of heaven, as it is [01:59] written in the book of the prophets. Did [02:00] you offer to me slain victims [02:05] and sacrifices for 40 years uh, in the [02:08] wilderness, oh house of Israel?" No, now [02:10] we're in verse 43. You took along the [02:13] tent of Moolok [02:16] and the star of your god [02:19] Rayan or Reman or Roofon or there there [02:24] are a bunch of different ways that this [02:25] is actually uh found in the manuscripts [02:28] in Greek, but rem Reman seems to be the [02:31] one that the social media um uh [02:34] butterflies like [02:37] the images that you made to worship. So [02:40] I will remove you beyond Babylon. [02:45] >> So [02:45] >> okay. [02:46] >> Yes. [02:47] >> And that was so that was a that was [02:49] Stephen quoting God. [02:52] >> Is that is that quotation uh a quotation [02:55] a ref a reference to a quotation in [02:58] another book [03:00] >> it [03:00] >> or is that did or did he make that up? [03:03] >> No, this is a quotation of uh the [03:05] prophetic book of Amos specifically [03:07] chapter 5. And we've got verses 25 and [03:11] 26 and a little bit of verse 27 thrown [03:15] in there for good measure. [03:17] But when we go look at the Hebrew of [03:19] what's going on in Amos 5, it's a little [03:22] different. So um I'm going to read Amos [03:25] 25 through to where we get to uh in the [03:28] middle of uh verse 27 from the NRSVE. [03:32] Uh and and this is based on the Hebrew. [03:35] Did you bring to me sacrifices and [03:37] offerings the 40 years in the [03:38] wilderness, oh house of Israel? You [03:41] shall take up Sakut, your king, and [03:45] Kaiwan, your star god, your images which [03:49] you made for yourselves. Therefore, I [03:52] will take you into exile beyond [03:55] Damascus. [03:58] >> Okay. [03:58] >> So, a little different. [04:00] >> Yeah. Uh, we didn't say Moolok. We [04:03] didn't say reman or refan or whatever it [04:05] is, [04:06] >> right? [04:06] >> So, what's going on there? [04:08] >> Well, uh the so the word the the [04:11] reference to moolok is uh and this seems [04:14] to be coming through in uh the [04:18] septuagent uh our our beloved ancient [04:22] Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, [04:24] right? Um, but they take uh this name [04:27] Sakut, which seems to be the name of uh [04:30] probably a Mesopotamian deity, [04:33] and it looks an awful lot like the [04:36] Hebrew word for sukkot. Uh, which is why [04:40] in the uh in the book of Acts, it [04:43] renders it the tent of Moolak. [04:46] >> So, you have the name of a deity that [04:48] gets confused for the Hebrew word for [04:49] tent or tabernacle. [04:51] >> Okay? And so you you bring along the [04:53] tent, but then we need the name of a [04:55] deity. And so instead of Sakut, your [04:58] king, you change the name of the deity [05:00] to tent and you change the word king to [05:02] mo because king in Hebrew is melik and [05:08] >> Okay. So [05:09] >> moolak is just different vowels. [05:11] >> Okay. So you take two words that have [05:15] meanings. [05:16] >> Uhhuh. And then you go, they sound kind [05:19] of like these two totally other words [05:22] that have totally different meanings. [05:25] >> Yeah, [05:26] >> that's a weird thing to do. [05:28] >> Well, [05:28] >> like I I mean I get that that could [05:30] happen, but it's just it just seems so [05:32] str. Did is the idea is the guess that [05:36] the uh the translators of the Septuagent [05:40] just didn't know those just didn't know [05:44] the [05:46] I what was going on there or [05:48] >> probably probably at least um well when [05:51] it comes to uh when it comes to the word [05:53] for king like they shouldn't have been [05:55] confused because there is a second [05:57] masculine plural pronominal suffix on [06:00] the end of Melik. So it it it shouldn't [06:03] be confused for the name Moolok, but and [06:06] also as we've discussed before on the [06:08] channel, there was no deity named [06:10] Moolok. That is some that's a [06:13] misunderstanding of a Hebrew noun that [06:16] probably just referred to a specific [06:17] type of sacrifice. And so by the time of [06:20] the Septuagent, they're like, "Maybe [06:21] it's that molec guy." Okay, we'll just [06:23] throw that in there. And you know, this [06:25] kind of thing happens. Is it is it um [06:27] slide down my rain barrel or rainbow? M [06:31] >> like, you know, they they're they're [06:34] somewhat similar. They're not the exact [06:35] same word, but um I grew up with rain [06:38] barrel. [06:39] >> Okay. [06:40] >> But [06:40] >> and I suppose that I mean it makes even [06:43] more sense when I think about like when [06:45] I think about words that sound the same [06:47] in English, [06:49] if I'm reading them, I have vowels. They [06:52] didn't have vowels to go. [06:53] >> They did not have vowels. Yeah. [06:54] >> So these would have been spelled the [06:56] same. molec and and moolok [06:59] >> except for that pronominal that [07:01] possessive suffix that is attached to [07:03] the word in Hebrew but but yeah they [07:05] they wouldn't have had vowels and they [07:06] would have gone either by uh an [07:08] interpretive tradition that would have [07:10] been active uh or uh just by their own [07:14] interpretation and this happens a lot in [07:16] the Septuagent there are sometimes when [07:18] they have no idea what's going on and [07:19] they just transliterate it [07:21] >> so they just go just write it and you [07:25] know the that kind of thing happens as [07:27] well. So we've gone from Sakut your king [07:31] to the tent of Molech. [07:33] >> So Sakut Yes. So let me just make sure [07:36] I'm following this. Sakut your king. [07:38] Sakut is a person is a king. [07:41] A deity. Yeah. Probably a uh a [07:44] Mesopotamian deity. And then the next [07:46] phrase Kaiwan your star god. And the the [07:49] Hebrew is kun. And then it says uh salme [07:55] which would be um your uh the your image [07:59] kav uh your image of a star. [08:02] >> Um and so the the idea there is that [08:05] kune is is some kind of divine image of [08:08] some kind related to a star. And then it [08:10] says uh elohim which would be your [08:13] plural uh god. Um so the star of your [08:17] god probably what it is your images uh [08:19] the star of your god and so here kune [08:23] gets uh gets altered a little bit into [08:27] rayan and probably because kun is also [08:31] probably a Mesopotamian deity um kiwan [08:36] uh kaiwan something like that is is what [08:39] it would have been in uh in Aadian and [08:43] this was probably a deity associated [08:45] with the planet Saturn. [08:47] >> Okay. [08:47] >> And so probably the Septuagent [08:49] translators render uh Reman or Rayon or [08:54] uh let's see what the the alternatives [08:56] are. We got Reman [09:00] Rome, [09:03] Refa, Refan, [09:06] Rayafan. [09:08] Uh, and [09:10] >> can I just say none of those sound like [09:13] uh Kiwan or whatever it is. [09:15] >> But I I think that probably was a deity [09:18] in the Greco Roman world that would have [09:20] been associated with the planet Saturn. [09:22] >> Okay. [09:22] >> So that's that's what makes sense of of [09:26] why they altered it. So So [09:28] >> So in this case, they're not trying to [09:30] translate the name. They're just trying [09:32] to substitute in a [09:36] the name [09:37] >> equivalent [09:38] >> an equivalent god. Okay. [09:40] >> Yeah. Yeah. And so it doesn't it doesn't [09:42] say anything at all about the nature of [09:44] this star. Uh however, if it is [09:48] associated with Saturn, a lot of people [09:50] have pointed out there's an interesting [09:53] uh pattern at at the north pole of [09:56] Saturn. [09:57] >> A Saturn pattern. A [09:59] >> it is a Saturn pattern. Yes. And um the [10:03] uh the Saturn pattern is a um a hexagon [10:08] that is created by the clouds and the [10:10] storms and everything like that. [10:11] >> Oh, I've seen that. Sure. [10:12] >> You've seen that? Okay. And uh the idea [10:16] that that a lot of people have come up [10:18] with is that the hexagon if you connect [10:22] there's a way to connect the points of [10:24] the hexagon to create a hexog [10:28] >> or [10:29] >> a star of David [10:30] >> a star of David a sixointed star. Now, [10:34] uh, we didn't have, uh, the ability to, [10:38] we didn't have telescopes that were [10:40] powerful enough to be able to see that [10:43] pattern on the top of Saturn until, you [10:46] know, the last, I don't know, it was [10:48] probably, [10:50] it was definitely after 1500. I'm going [10:53] to say it's probably closer to like 19 [10:56] Okay, I was way off. 1987. [10:59] >> I was going to say, yeah, that's that's [11:01] not the kind of thing that you can see [11:02] with just optics. You got to you have to [11:04] have uh you either have to get the [11:06] optics very very close or [11:08] >> Okay. [11:09] >> We're looking with different things. [11:10] >> David Godfrey in 1987 pieced together [11:13] flyby views from the 81 Voyager mission. [11:16] Yeah. So, that was Verger that gave us [11:19] um [laughter] the the hexagon. So, [11:21] definitely not on the radar of [11:24] [laughter] uh of the author authors. [11:26] Yes. of of Amos 5. Uh that would be a [11:29] kind of precience that you probably need [11:32] some evidence for. But um so yeah, the [11:36] one of the reasons we're bringing this [11:37] up is because on social media these [11:39] days, you see all kinds of people saying [11:42] that the star of David is the star of [11:45] Reman. It's an idol. It is idolatry. [11:49] It's worshiping a false god and all this [11:51] kind of stuff. This is just rank [11:53] anti-semitism [11:54] that is trying to dismiss the star of [11:56] David as uh as a false god. [12:00] >> Well, yeah. And trying to associate the [12:02] Jewish people who invented all like [12:05] whose book you you still use Christian [12:08] person to say uh to say that the Jewish [12:12] people are are the idolatrous ones. [12:14] >> Yes. [12:15] >> I think it's so interesting. But I and [12:17] yeah, you know, the a a an anti-semitic [12:21] video was sort of our jumping off point [12:23] for looking at this. But what became [12:26] instantly more interesting to me as as I [12:28] was reading about this is this uh sort [12:32] of [12:34] old ancient view of the stars and the [12:38] heavens as not [12:42] not like you know we think of them you [12:44] know planets and stars as sort of inert [12:47] >> balls of gas burning billions of miles [12:50] away giant rocks whatever you got. But [12:53] they were when when you know going back [12:56] to Acts seven when Stephen says, "But [12:59] God turned away from them and h handed [13:02] them over to the worship of the host of [13:04] heaven." [13:05] >> Mhm. [13:07] >> The host of heaven is not a group of It [13:10] is a group of gods, but it's the stars. [13:13] It's the planets. Yeah. Those are the [13:16] gods. [13:17] >> Yes. So the the host is tava in Hebrew. [13:22] Um that means it's like military host. [13:26] It's uh it's a a group of of soldiers [13:29] and and this the idea of the stars is [13:32] the host of heaven descends from this [13:33] notion that the stars are gods that they [13:35] are God's army [13:37] >> right and when and I think all of the [13:40] ancient world had some version of this [13:43] which is why you know we associate you [13:46] know Saturn the the the planets [13:49] themselves are not named after gods [13:51] they're associated with gods because [13:54] they were gods [13:55] >> yes you You know what I mean? Like [13:56] Saturn and Venus and all these things, [13:58] they were the gods. That was the god. [13:59] He's up there looking down on us. And [14:02] the reason that they chose the planets [14:04] specifically was because those are the [14:06] ones that move around in the night sky. [14:08] >> Yes. The wanderers. [14:10] >> Yeah. [14:10] >> Because they're not they're they're not [14:12] in a fixed pattern. Um and we you see [14:15] this in in Pho, you see this in Paul, [14:18] the idea that that those are gods. And [14:21] Pho is pretty explicit. The stars are [14:23] gods. And uh there and we can go to [14:27] Deuteronomy. There's an interesting uh [14:29] part in Deuteronomy 4. When you look up [14:31] to the heavens and see the sun, the [14:34] moon, and the stars, all the host of [14:36] heaven, do not be led astray and bow [14:38] down to them and serve them. Things that [14:41] the Lord your God has allotted to all [14:43] the peoples everywhere under heaven. And [14:47] so, according to Deuteronomy 4, they're [14:49] the gods that the nations worship. God [14:52] created the the host of heaven so that [14:55] the nations would have uh deities to [14:57] worship but Israel must only worship [15:01] Adonai and Israel must not follow the [15:05] worship practices that the other nations [15:07] use to worship those other gods. So the [15:09] host of heaven work for God, but they're [15:12] also considered the the idolatrous uh [15:17] gods of the heathens. and [15:19] >> and and and yet again we have this idea [15:22] that that keeps popping up for us which [15:24] is the idea that these are not that that [15:27] there isn't just one god [15:30] >> right [15:30] >> and you know they place their god over [15:32] and above these other gods and maybe [15:34] make him the creator god of these other [15:37] gods or whatever [15:39] >> but it's very specific that these are [15:41] other gods like the like the other the [15:44] people in Babylon or you know Moab or [15:49] whatever are worship they're not [15:50] worshiping a god that doesn't exist. [15:53] They're worshiping a god that does exist [15:55] but isn't your god, right? [15:57] >> Sort of thing. [15:58] >> Yeah, precisely. Um and and you see this [16:01] in in a number of places in the [16:03] pre-exilic literature, but it lasts down [16:06] into the New Testament. And for [16:08] instance, the the idea that the other [16:11] gods are ruled by the the other nations [16:13] are ruled by other patron deities. You [16:16] know, this is Deuteronomy 32:8. This is [16:19] uh God goes down to Egypt in the Exodus [16:21] to uh to render judgment upon the gods [16:25] of Egypt. Uh you have David telling Saul [16:29] as Saul is pursuing David and and like [16:31] chasing him outside of the land of [16:32] Israel, David's complaining, "Your men [16:34] are forcing me to worship other gods by [16:37] forcing me out of Adoni's inheritance." [16:39] There are a bunch of of manifestations [16:41] of that idea. And even in Deuteriah, [16:45] this is supposed to be like the high [16:46] watermark of uh biblical monotheism. You [16:50] even have in dudero Isaiah God saying, [16:53] you know, who who musters the host of [16:56] heaven and names them and not one is [16:59] missing. Like that that's talking about [17:01] calling the gods out to muster for [17:04] battle and all of them show up cuz they [17:07] all obey the God of Israel. Not one is [17:10] missing. and and the God of Israel knows [17:13] all their names and and commands them. [17:16] And uh the uh it is in the uh the song [17:21] of Deborah in Judges 5 when they are [17:24] they're fighting against the Canaanite [17:26] general Cicora. And it says, "The stars [17:29] in their courses fought against Cicora," [17:33] which is another reference to the idea [17:36] that the stars not only are deities, but [17:38] also are armies, right? [17:40] >> And they can be called upon to come [17:43] fight against the enemies of the people [17:45] of God. So, it's it's all throughout the [17:48] Hebrew Bible and and again, even down [17:50] into the New Testament where they're [17:51] frequently referred to as uh powers, [17:54] principalities, and powers and dominions [17:56] and and stuff like that. Those are the [17:59] the references to powers in Paul [18:02] frequently and and I haven't looked at [18:04] to see if it's unilaterally but [18:06] frequently that's references to divine [18:08] beings that are identifiable as stars. [18:12] >> Uh so when you get into later rabbitic [18:14] literature there's this famous debate in [18:17] rabbitic literature about two powers in [18:19] heaven. And this is supposed to be kind [18:21] of a euphemistic way to refer to the [18:24] heresy about there being two gods in [18:26] heaven. The main god and then like a [18:29] deputy god. And some folks think that [18:31] this has to do with with Christianity. [18:33] But there are other Jewish scholars who [18:35] are will argue it seems to just have to [18:38] do with this idea of a kind of [18:40] subordinationism in early Judaism where [18:42] there was some kind of mediatory figure [18:45] that was was being endorsed by Jewish [18:48] folks. So that's that's an ongoing [18:50] debate. But um but powers are gods. [18:53] >> All I know is that when you said a main [18:54] god and a deputy god, I had Andy Andy [18:58] Gre and [laughter] Barney Fe jump in to [18:59] hit my head. [19:00] >> Yeah. The deputy god gets one bullet and [19:02] he has [clears throat] to carry it [19:03] around in his pocket. [19:04] >> Andy Andy [laughter] [19:06] ain't need. Uh that made that made me [19:10] very happy. Let me ask you this. Uh, one [19:12] of the things that I found when I was [19:13] looking up some of this stuff was [19:16] references to a an ancient Hebrew [19:19] zodiac. [19:21] Um, um, so like can we get a little bit [19:25] into that? Because so one of the things [19:29] that we see is, you know, Adonai is our [19:34] god. Is Adonai one of the one of the [19:36] star gods or is he separate from the [19:39] stars? [19:41] considered considered separate because [19:43] you have the the sun, the moon, the [19:44] stars, all the host of heaven that is [19:46] all distinct from and subordinate to [19:48] Adonai. [19:49] >> Okay. [19:50] >> Although although in the earliest [19:51] periods you do have some indications [19:54] that Adonai worship of Adonai was [19:57] associated with worship of the sun. [19:59] >> Okay. [19:59] >> So there there is it probably had was in [20:03] some periods associated with astral [20:05] phenomena. [20:07] >> Okay. Well, one of the things that keep [20:10] keeps popping up that even I've noticed [20:13] but then uh when in my reading was [20:15] associated then with this astrology [20:17] business is the number 12. 12 tribes of [20:22] Israel, 12 stones on the high priest's [20:25] breastplate, [20:27] >> right? [20:27] >> 12 loaves in the temple, all of this [20:29] stuff. And people were connecting that [20:31] with signs of a zodiac. Um, mazerot. Is [20:36] that a word that I'm that I'm looking [20:38] for? [laughter] [20:38] >> Matzerot. Yes, that's that occurs in the [20:41] book of Job. Uh, and that's probably a [20:44] reference to uh the Mazerot just means [20:47] the the stars or the constellations. [20:49] >> Oh, okay. [20:50] >> Yeah. So, um I don't know that it's uh [20:55] some I I think it's the majority [20:57] position that this is a reference to [21:00] constellations, the zodiac. uh Job is is [21:04] Persian period. So if this is influenced [21:06] by uh Zoroastrian [21:10] astrology, then it could be a direct [21:12] reference to uh the the 12 signs of the [21:14] zodiac. But that's it. That's the only [21:17] you you have I think you have some [21:18] references that are generally that are [21:20] translated like uh the Pleades or [21:23] something like that. [21:24] >> Uhhuh. But uh but when it comes to the [21:26] zodiac, that's the closest you get is [21:27] the book. [21:29] >> So uh so did do you think that there's [21:32] anything to this idea that the the [21:34] number 12 is popping up as a zodiacal [21:37] reference? [21:38] >> No. Um I I don't think there's a case to [21:41] make for that because it the the number [21:43] 12 is significant long before we see any [21:47] references to a zodiac. [21:49] And so, so I think it's it's more likely [21:52] just that that this is a a number that [21:55] became highly significant early on in in [21:57] the history of Israel. And you've got a [21:59] bunch of those 3, 7, 12, 70, 40. There [22:02] there are a bunch of numbers that are [22:03] symbolic and have significance and so [22:06] get repeated an awful lot. Um, so so I I [22:10] don't think there's a good case to make [22:11] for that. [22:12] >> Okay. I guess it was I guess it was as a [22:14] reference to the temple itself and was [22:18] talking about this the the stones on the [22:22] breastplate and uh 12 loaves in the [22:24] temple. [22:25] >> Okay. [22:25] >> 12 pillars and and they were talking [22:28] about the the temple as a sort of model [22:32] for the cosmos or whatever. [22:34] >> Yeah. There there's a case to make for [22:36] that and and the a lot of the texts [22:38] about the temple are probably exilic or [22:40] maybe even post exoic. So that's much [22:42] closer to that. [22:43] >> But the significance of 12, I think, [22:45] predates that. [22:46] >> Um, and and you know, it's it's a it's a [22:50] there's a much shorter line to draw from [22:54] 12 tribes to 12 stones, 12 pillars, 12 [22:58] 12 everything. So, [23:00] >> right, that makes total sense. [23:01] >> Yeah. But but I it would be I would be [23:04] interested to see uh what a a close [23:08] interrogation of the number 12 uh [23:11] throughout the history of Israel reveals [23:14] uh because [23:15] >> it doesn't seem obvious to me that 12 [23:17] would necessarily, [23:19] you know, different cultures looking at [23:21] the sky might not subdivide it into 12 [23:24] the way many cultures have. Like it like [23:27] it that just seems like an arbitrary [23:30] division. You don't need to divide [23:32] things into 12. But maybe I'm not I look [23:35] I'm I am neither an astrologer nor an [23:37] astronomer. So [laughter] I uh I I I [23:41] don't necessarily know. [23:42] >> All I know is that it's the age of [23:45] Aquarius. [23:46] >> It's the dawning of that. [23:47] >> The dawning of Well, it was it was the [23:49] dawning back in the 60s. [23:50] >> Back in the 60s. We got to be there by [23:52] now, right? [23:53] >> Yeah. Certainly. [laughter] Certainly. [23:54] Yeah. [23:56] in the year 2525. If man is still alive [24:00] and they were, [24:00] >> they'll they'll they'll get there [24:02] hopefully. [24:02] >> Well, yeah, we turns out we were still [24:04] alive then. Um, all right. Anything else [24:07] we wanted to get into in terms of [24:09] astrology? Did the magi? Yeah, I mean, [24:12] you mentioned the Zoroast the [24:15] Zoroastrians and we, you know, when we [24:17] talked about the magi, they were likely [24:19] Zoroastrian [24:21] >> uh priests or whatever or astrologers [24:24] >> scholars. Yes. Poet warrior kings or [24:27] [laughter] whatever. Yeah. Um I should [24:30] have said that in a Scottish accent, but [24:32] um no, the I Yeah, the the magi that [24:36] that's such a fascinating bit of [24:37] astrology because it it's like they're [24:39] not they're not Israelites. They're not [24:41] Jewish folks, right? [24:42] >> They come from a completely different [24:44] region, a completely different ethnic [24:46] group, a completely different tradition. [24:49] >> And it's like, look, their divinatory [24:52] practices were accurate. Yeah. Right. [24:54] >> Is that what the author is trying to [24:56] say? [24:56] >> Yeah. The the author is like, "Hey, [24:58] these guys know what they're talking [25:00] about." [25:00] >> Yeah. If they tell you that the the [25:03] stars are telling you something, they [25:05] got it right here. So, [25:06] >> yeah. Um, which which I think is uh I [25:09] would love to see somebody tease out the [25:11] implications of that a little more [25:13] because it it just suggests to me that [25:15] the author, in my opinion, the author of [25:18] Matthew is probably just toying with how [25:21] obvious it is that that this was a sign [25:24] of of the coming of the the Savior. That [25:27] even those those goofballs out in uh in [25:29] the Zagros Mountains over there, they [25:31] even they can figure it out. And and and [25:33] here we have Herod going, "I don't know [25:35] what's going on. [25:36] Yeah, [25:38] >> um what's the uh Goomer? [25:40] >> Uh I don't even remember [laughter] the [25:41] character's names. [25:42] >> Andy. Andy. [25:45] >> Um the the other one thing that I [25:48] thought I would just dive into just a [25:50] little bit. [25:51] >> Okay. [25:51] >> Because it's always confused me is uh [25:55] Venus aka Morning Star. Yes. aka [26:01] somebody in a Isaiah aka Lucifer aka [26:06] what are we talking that that one got me [26:08] really messed up. [26:10] >> Well, the you have in in Isaiah 14:12, [26:12] you have the a sarcastic reference to [26:14] the king of Babylon. Like the text is [26:16] explicitly saying, "Okay, and now I'm [26:18] going to talk about the king of [26:19] Babylon." And then it uh sarcastically [26:22] refers to him exalting his throne over [26:24] the stars of God. [26:25] >> Okay. and uh and and talks about you [26:28] know how you have fallen uh and refers [26:31] to him as uh Ben Shakar which would be [26:35] shining one son of the dawn and this [26:37] would seem to be a couple of different [26:39] ways to refer to the king sarcastically [26:43] as some kind of deity associated with [26:46] the planet Venus. Okay, [26:47] >> because Venus was was widely um divized [26:51] and and considered an important deity in [26:53] so many different pantheons. And so when [26:56] you get down to the Septuagent, they [26:58] render it um heospheros, which would be [27:04] uh lightbearer. [27:06] >> And so it's not it's they're not [27:08] transliterating it. and and that is [27:10] evidently a name that is occasionally [27:13] used to refer to a deity in the pantheon [27:17] associated with the planet Venus. And [27:18] then when you get down to the Latin, [27:20] they use Lucifer, which is also a name [27:24] that is used occasionally to refer to a [27:26] deity in the pantheon that is associated [27:28] with the planet Venus. And you also have [27:31] Lucifer. Uh there's a there's a passage [27:33] in I want to say it's first Peter. I [27:35] could it could be second Peter. It's in [27:37] one of the Peters. um Pete and Pete [27:40] >> um just as a call back to to the good [27:42] old days of the Nickelodeon 90s. Um but [27:46] it talks about the uh the morning star [27:48] rising in your hearts and that is [27:51] supposed to be a reference to Jesus and [27:54] in the vulgate it's rendered Lucifer. So [27:57] so the Latin vulgate is clearly not [28:00] using Lucifer to mean something bad. In [28:02] fact, there was in the 300s CE a bishop [28:06] named Lucifer. [28:08] >> Oh, wow. Yeah. [28:08] >> Yeah. Which was just lightbearer or [28:10] lightbringer. And so you can see how [28:12] that could be associated with with [28:14] Jesus. And then after you identify [28:18] Lucifer with Satan, then Lucifer becomes [28:22] uh a naughty name and a naughty [28:24] character. You're not. [28:26] >> Somebody needs to Somebody go out after [28:28] you've seen this and do a video that we [28:31] can then respond to where you claim that [28:34] Jesus is actually Satan because of the [28:36] Lucifer Lucifer creation. [28:38] >> There are there are more than enough [28:40] people getting millions of views on v [28:42] videos uh saying that and a lot of them [28:45] will uh a lot of them are usingnosticism [28:49] to do it. [28:50] >> Okay? Because one of one ofnosticism's [28:52] claims based on this middle platonic [28:56] cosmogy that suggests that the material [28:59] world is bad. And so whichever deity [29:01] created the material world was bad. And [29:04] so thenosticism [29:07] certain um streams of tradition [29:08] withinnosticism reinterpret the Hebrew [29:11] Bible as a story of the evil kind of JV [29:14] squad deity who trapped us in these [29:17] fleshly prisons. And so nowadays you get [29:21] the people who are like well [29:22] yeahnosticism and we can bring the [29:24] luciferian stuff into it too and so it [29:27] just resonates at a higher frequency and [29:30] then you get into frequencies and so [29:33] [laughter] [29:33] yeah there are plenty of people doing [29:35] that out there. [29:36] >> All right. Well there you go. Uh what a [29:39] fun weird [29:41] uh sort of difficult to follow grouping [29:44] of things uh that that was. But I really [29:47] enjoy it. Uh, hey, listen friends. If [29:50] you would like to become a part of [29:52] making this show happen, and boy, we'd [29:55] really appreciate it if you would if you [29:57] do. Uh, head on over to patreon.com/data [30:01] overdogma. And, uh, that's where you can [30:05] get early and adfree versions of each [30:08] episode. You can get the afterparty, [30:11] which is bonus content that we do for [30:13] you. There's a lot of a lot of stuff [30:15] happening over there. or who knows, [30:17] maybe new stuff will start happening. [30:18] We'll do some patrons only stuff. You [30:20] don't know, we might. Uh, and if we do, [30:23] you're going to want to be a part of it. [30:25] So, head on over there. We sure do [30:27] appreciate you. We also appreciate Roger [30:29] Gaudy for editing the show. And we will [30:32] talk to y'all next time. Bye, everybody. [30:37] [music]  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDjUi4YNP58) --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Biblical Astrology ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research Mesopotamian deity Sakut — context/etymology #biblical-studies - [H2] Examine Saturn hexagon conspiracy theories — social media misinformation #fact-check - [H3] Study ancient Jewish zodiacal references — Job, Persian influence #research ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Data Over Dogma YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@DataOverDogma) - [Acts 7:43](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7%3A43&version=NRSV) ## 📝 Summary - Biblical scholars examine Acts 7:43's reference to "the star of your god Rephan/Remphan" - Translation errors from Hebrew to Greek created confusion between deity names (Sakut/Molech, Kaiwan/Rephan) - Ancient worldviews treated stars and planets as divine beings, not inert celestial objects - Modern antisemitic conspiracy theories falsely connect Star of David to ancient idolatry - Biblical texts show henotheistic rather than monotheistic theology ## 📖 Main Content This episode explores the complex translation history behind Acts 7:43, where Stephen quotes Amos 5:25-27 about Israel's idolatrous worship of stellar deities. The original Hebrew text mentions "Sakut your king" and "Kaiwan your star-god," both likely Mesopotamian deities associated with celestial bodies. However, the Greek Septuagint translation altered these names significantly. "Sakut" became confused with the Hebrew word "sukkot" (tents), leading to "tent of Molech." Similarly, "Kaiwan" (possibly Saturn-related) became "Rephan" or variations thereof in Greek manuscripts. This textual confusion has been exploited by modern antisemitic conspiracy theorists who falsely claim the Star of David represents ancient stellar idolatry. The scholars debunk this, noting that Saturn's hexagonal polar pattern wasn't discovered until 1987 via Voyager imagery. More significantly, the discussion reveals how ancient peoples viewed stars and planets as divine beings - "the host of heaven" - rather than distant gas balls. This worldview appears throughout Hebrew Bible texts, suggesting a henotheistic theology where other gods exist but Israel must worship only Yahweh. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Biblical Astrology - Key idea: Exploring stellar references in Acts 7 and ancient astrology - Evidence: "We're picking up where we left off last week, uh, which was in Acts chapter 7" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=150) — [H2] Acts 7:43 Translation Issues - Key idea: Greek Septuagint altered Hebrew deity names significantly - Evidence: "You took along the tent of Moloch and the star of your god Rephan" #### ⏱️ [05:15](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=315) — [H3] Original Hebrew Text in Amos - Key idea: Hebrew version names different deities than Greek translation - Evidence: "You shall take up Sakut, your king, and Kaiwan, your star god" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=525) — [H2] Sakut to Molech Translation Error - Key idea: Mesopotamian deity name confused with Hebrew word for tent - Evidence: "Sakut...looks an awful lot like the Hebrew word for sukkot" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=740) — [H2] Kaiwan to Rephan Deity Substitution - Key idea: Saturn-associated deity replaced with Greco-Roman equivalent - Evidence: "Kaiwan...was probably a deity associated with the planet Saturn" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=930) — [H3] Saturn Hexagon Conspiracy Debunked - Key idea: Modern antisemitic theories lack historical basis - Evidence: "David Godfrey in 1987 pieced together flyby views from the '81 Voyager mission" #### ⏱️ [18:10](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1090) — [H1] Ancient View of Stars as Gods - Key idea: Stars and planets were considered divine beings, not inert objects - Evidence: "The host of heaven...Those are the gods" #### ⏱️ [21:45](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1305) — [H2] Host of Heaven as Divine Army - Key idea: Stars functioned as God's military force in ancient cosmology - Evidence: "The stars are gods that they are God's army" #### ⏱️ [25:00](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1500) — [H2] Deuteronomy's Henotheistic Theology - Key idea: Other gods exist but are assigned to other nations - Evidence: "Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1710) — [H3] Stars Fighting in Battle - Key idea: Divine beings could be summoned for warfare - Evidence: "The stars in their courses fought against Sisera" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1935) — [H3] Hebrew Zodiac and Number 12 - Key idea: Zodiacal influence on Hebrew culture remains questionable - Evidence: "The significance of 12, I think, predates that" #### ⏱️ [36:45](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=2205) — [H2] Magi and Zoroastrian Astrology - Key idea: Matthew validates foreign astrological practices - Evidence: "Their divinatory practices were accurate" #### ⏱️ [40:20](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=2420) — [H2] Lucifer/Venus Translation History - Key idea: "Lucifer" originally meant light-bearer, associated with Venus - Evidence: "There was in the 300s CE a bishop named Lucifer" #### ⏱️ [43:50](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=2630) — [H3] Gnostic Reinterpretations - Key idea: Modern conspiracy theories blend Gnosticism with Luciferian concepts - Evidence: "Certain streams of tradition within Gnosticism reinterpret the Hebrew Bible" ## 📚 References - [Acts 7:43](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7%3A43&version=NRSV) - [Amos 5:25-27](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Amos+5%3A25-27&version=NRSV) - [Deuteronomy 4:19](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+4%3A19&version=NRSV) - [Isaiah 14:12](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14%3A12&version=NRSV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Ancient Hebrew and Greek translators sometimes misunderstood Mesopotamian deity names, creating textual confusion that persists today - Biblical authors viewed stars and planets as divine beings with agency, not merely celestial objects - Modern conspiracy theories exploit translation errors to promote antisemitic narratives about Jewish symbols ## 📰 Newsletter **Biblical Astrology: When Stars Were Gods** Discover how ancient translation errors created lasting confusion about stellar deities in Acts 7:43. Biblical scholars Dan McClellan and Dan Beecher reveal how Hebrew names like "Sakut" and "Kaiwan" became "Molech" and "Rephan" through Greek translation mistakes. More fascinating: ancient peoples viewed stars as divine beings with agency, not distant gas balls. This worldview appears throughout biblical texts, suggesting a more complex theology than simple monotheism. **Key Takeaway:** Understanding translation history helps combat modern misinformation, including antisemitic conspiracy theories about Jewish symbols. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create educational content about textual criticism methods - Education: Workshop on translation challenges in religious texts - Community management: Address misinformation in biblical studies forums #### Community - Contributors: Develop fact-checking resources for religious conspiracy theories - Maintainers: Create accessible explanations of ancient worldviews - Sponsors: Fund academic research into translation history ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Translation errors in ancient texts often reflect cultural and linguistic barriers rather than theological intent - Henotheistic worldviews were more common in ancient Judaism than traditionally acknowledged - Modern conspiracy theories exploit gaps in public knowledge about textual history - Social media amplifies religious misinformation through visual memes and simplified narratives ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of Hebrew, Greek, and Latin manuscript traditions - Archaeological evidence for Mesopotamian deity worship - Social media content analysis of conspiracy theory propagation ### ❓ Questions - How can biblical scholarship better combat religiously-motivated misinformation? - What other translation errors have been exploited for antisemitic purposes? - How did ancient Jewish communities actually view stellar worship practices? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive study of Septuagint translation patterns for deity names - Analysis of social media conspiracy theory networks targeting religious minorities - Archaeological investigation of ancient Jewish astrological practices ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Biblical interpretation requires understanding translation history - Education: Public needs better textual criticism literacy - Security: Religious misinformation poses risks to minority communities - Policy: Social media platforms should address conspiracy theory content targeting religious groups ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None in audio-only format - Improve: Manuscript comparison charts, deity name evolution diagrams, star maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio discussion format - Improve: Clear chapter markers, pronunciation guides #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions, etymological explanations - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, analogies for translation processes #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None identified - Improve: Interactive manuscript comparison tools, translation exercises ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio format naturally accessible - Improve: Detailed transcript with speaker identification #### Media and captions - Present: Audio discussion available - Improve: Professional transcript, chapter markers ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of multiple ancient cultures (Hebrew, Greek, Mesopotamian) - Improve: More context on cultural exchange patterns #### Inclusive language - Present: Academic terminology clearly defined - Improve: Plain language summaries for complex concepts #### Representation - Present: Focus on combating antisemitic misinformation - Improve: Broader discussion of how misinformation affects various religious minorities ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Sound textual analysis of manuscript evidence - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition across multiple biblical texts - Historical reasoning: Careful chronological analysis of translation changes #### Fallacies - None identified: Scholars maintain appropriate scholarly skepticism and evidence-based reasoning #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Academic but accessible, occasionally humorous, respectful of religious traditions while maintaining critical perspective ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present in scholarly discussion - Attack: Scholars critique antisemitic conspiracy theories appropriately - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns identified - Emotional cues: Appropriate concern about religious misinformation ## 🎯 Conclusion This scholarly discussion reveals how ancient translation errors continue to fuel modern misinformation. Understanding that stars were viewed as divine beings in ancient worldviews helps explain biblical texts that seem contradictory to modern monotheistic interpretations. The most important takeaway is recognizing how gaps in public knowledge about textual history enable conspiracy theories targeting religious minorities, particularly antisemitic narratives about Jewish symbols. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Translation errors create lasting theological confusion > [!quote] [Biblical Astrology](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58) by [[Data Over Dogma]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "Sakut your king gets confused for the Hebrew word for tent or tabernacle." Ancient translators' linguistic limitations continue affecting modern biblical interpretation. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=525#H1) #translation #biblical-studies ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Ancient worldviews treated celestial bodies as divine agents > [!quote] [Biblical Astrology](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58) > "The host of heaven...Those are the gods. The stars are gods that they are God's army." Fundamental difference between ancient and modern cosmological understanding. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1305#H2) #cosmology #theology ID:rw_002 ### [H3] Henotheistic theology appears throughout Hebrew Bible > [!quote] [Biblical Astrology](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58) > "Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven." Other gods exist but are assigned to other nations in biblical worldview. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/HDjUi4YNP58?t=1500#H3) #henotheism #ancient-religion ID:rw_003 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Manuscript traditions preserve translation errors across centuries - Septuagint alterations persist into modern biblical scholarship - Pointer to 8:45 timestamp discussion - Links: [[Textual-Criticism]] [[Translation-History]] #### [Z2] Religious misinformation exploits knowledge gaps about textual history - Antisemitic conspiracy theories leverage translation confusion - Pointer to 15:30 Saturn hexagon discussion - Links: [[Religious-Misinformation]] [[Antisemitism]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research Mesopotamian astral religion practices — comparative study #fleeting #research - [F2 --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDjUi4YNP58)* **[00:00]** [music] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen. >> And I'm Dan Beecher. >> And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How go things, Dan? >> Things go well. Uh I'm looking forward to this. We're we're picking up where we left off last week, uh, which was in Acts chapter 7, >> uh, not last week, but last whatever episode segment thing, last video. Uh, **[00:32]** so I'm excited about this one because this one's very different and all about like magic and astrology and crazy stuff like that. So, I'm looking forward to chatting about it. Uh, and also, we'll get some anti-semitism in there. We'll get everything. It's going to be it's going to be a hoot. >> So, uh let's dive in with what is that? [music] >> And today's What is that uh is a star. **[01:03]** Now, you and I have talked before about references to stars. We talked about the star of David. >> Yes. There's a new star search evidently. >> Okay. >> Started up. >> Boom. That's great. Uh there's a star that was over a certain infant's house. However, that ends up working. Uh but this is a different star and it's a little confusing. We're we're still in Acts chapter 7 as we said. Uh but now we're looking for >> uh we're we're looking at verse 43. **[01:38]** >> Yes. >> Guide me in. I don't know what's going on here. >> Okay. So, um, you've got we're we're in Steven's, um, review of the history of Israel, and we're talking about the fact that Israel was slipping back into idolatry. And verse 42 says, "God turned away from them and handed them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets. Did you offer to me slain victims and sacrifices for 40 years uh, in the **[02:08]** wilderness, oh house of Israel?" No, now we're in verse 43. You took along the tent of Moolok and the star of your god Rayan or Reman or Roofon or there there are a bunch of different ways that this is actually uh found in the manuscripts in Greek, but rem Reman seems to be the one that the social media um uh butterflies like the images that you made to worship. So **[02:40]** I will remove you beyond Babylon. >> So >> okay. >> Yes. >> And that was so that was a that was Stephen quoting God. >> Is that is that quotation uh a quotation a ref a reference to a quotation in another book >> it >> or is that did or did he make that up? >> No, this is a quotation of uh the prophetic book of Amos specifically chapter 5. And we've got verses 25 and **[03:11]** 26 and a little bit of verse 27 thrown in there for good measure. But when we go look at the Hebrew of what's going on in Amos 5, it's a little different. So um I'm going to read Amos 25 through to where we get to uh in the middle of uh verse 27 from the NRSVE. Uh and and this is based on the Hebrew. Did you bring to me sacrifices and offerings the 40 years in the wilderness, oh house of Israel? You **[03:41]** shall take up Sakut, your king, and Kaiwan, your star god, your images which you made for yourselves. Therefore, I will take you into exile beyond Damascus. >> Okay. >> So, a little different. >> Yeah. Uh, we didn't say Moolok. We didn't say reman or refan or whatever it is, >> right? >> So, what's going on there? >> Well, uh the so the word the the **[04:11]** reference to moolok is uh and this seems to be coming through in uh the septuagent uh our our beloved ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, right? Um, but they take uh this name Sakut, which seems to be the name of uh probably a Mesopotamian deity, and it looks an awful lot like the Hebrew word for sukkot. Uh, which is why in the uh in the book of Acts, it **[04:43]** renders it the tent of Moolak. >> So, you have the name of a deity that gets confused for the Hebrew word for tent or tabernacle. >> Okay? And so you you bring along the tent, but then we need the name of a deity. And so instead of Sakut, your king, you change the name of the deity to tent and you change the word king to mo because king in Hebrew is melik and >> Okay. So >> moolak is just different vowels. >> Okay. So you take two words that have **[05:15]** meanings. >> Uhhuh. And then you go, they sound kind of like these two totally other words that have totally different meanings. >> Yeah, >> that's a weird thing to do. >> Well, >> like I I mean I get that that could happen, but it's just it just seems so str. Did is the idea is the guess that the uh the translators of the Septuagent just didn't know those just didn't know the **[05:46]** I what was going on there or >> probably probably at least um well when it comes to uh when it comes to the word for king like they shouldn't have been confused because there is a second masculine plural pronominal suffix on the end of Melik. So it it it shouldn't be confused for the name Moolok, but and also as we've discussed before on the channel, there was no deity named Moolok. That is some that's a misunderstanding of a Hebrew noun that probably just referred to a specific **[06:17]** type of sacrifice. And so by the time of the Septuagent, they're like, "Maybe it's that molec guy." Okay, we'll just throw that in there. And you know, this kind of thing happens. Is it is it um slide down my rain barrel or rainbow? M >> like, you know, they they're they're somewhat similar. They're not the exact same word, but um I grew up with rain barrel. >> Okay. >> But >> and I suppose that I mean it makes even more sense when I think about like when I think about words that sound the same in English, **[06:49]** if I'm reading them, I have vowels. They didn't have vowels to go. >> They did not have vowels. Yeah. >> So these would have been spelled the same. molec and and moolok >> except for that pronominal that possessive suffix that is attached to the word in Hebrew but but yeah they they wouldn't have had vowels and they would have gone either by uh an interpretive tradition that would have been active uh or uh just by their own interpretation and this happens a lot in the Septuagent there are sometimes when they have no idea what's going on and **[07:19]** they just transliterate it >> so they just go just write it and you know the that kind of thing happens as well. So we've gone from Sakut your king to the tent of Molech. >> So Sakut Yes. So let me just make sure I'm following this. Sakut your king. Sakut is a person is a king. A deity. Yeah. Probably a uh a Mesopotamian deity. And then the next phrase Kaiwan your star god. And the the **[07:49]** Hebrew is kun. And then it says uh salme which would be um your uh the your image kav uh your image of a star. >> Um and so the the idea there is that kune is is some kind of divine image of some kind related to a star. And then it says uh elohim which would be your plural uh god. Um so the star of your god probably what it is your images uh the star of your god and so here kune **[08:23]** gets uh gets altered a little bit into rayan and probably because kun is also probably a Mesopotamian deity um kiwan uh kaiwan something like that is is what it would have been in uh in Aadian and this was probably a deity associated with the planet Saturn. >> Okay. >> And so probably the Septuagent translators render uh Reman or Rayon or **[08:54]** uh let's see what the the alternatives are. We got Reman Rome, Refa, Refan, Rayafan. Uh, and >> can I just say none of those sound like uh Kiwan or whatever it is. >> But I I think that probably was a deity in the Greco Roman world that would have been associated with the planet Saturn. >> Okay. >> So that's that's what makes sense of of **[09:26]** why they altered it. So So >> So in this case, they're not trying to translate the name. They're just trying to substitute in a the name >> equivalent >> an equivalent god. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so it doesn't it doesn't say anything at all about the nature of this star. Uh however, if it is associated with Saturn, a lot of people have pointed out there's an interesting uh pattern at at the north pole of **[09:56]** Saturn. >> A Saturn pattern. A >> it is a Saturn pattern. Yes. And um the uh the Saturn pattern is a um a hexagon that is created by the clouds and the storms and everything like that. >> Oh, I've seen that. Sure. >> You've seen that? Okay. And uh the idea that that a lot of people have come up with is that the hexagon if you connect there's a way to connect the points of the hexagon to create a hexog **[10:28]** >> or >> a star of David a sixointed star. Now, uh, we didn't have, uh, the ability to, we didn't have telescopes that were powerful enough to be able to see that pattern on the top of Saturn until, you know, the last, I don't know, it was probably, it was definitely after 1500. I'm going to say it's probably closer to like 19 Okay, I was way off. 1987. **[10:59]** >> I was going to say, yeah, that's that's not the kind of thing that you can see with just optics. You got to you have to have uh you either have to get the optics very very close or >> Okay. >> We're looking with different things. >> David Godfrey in 1987 pieced together flyby views from the 81 Voyager mission. Yeah. So, that was Verger that gave us um [laughter] the the hexagon. So, definitely not on the radar of [laughter] uh of the author authors. Yes. of of Amos 5. Uh that would be a **[11:29]** kind of precience that you probably need some evidence for. But um so yeah, the one of the reasons we're bringing this up is because on social media these days, you see all kinds of people saying that the star of David is the star of Reman. It's an idol. It is idolatry. It's worshiping a false god and all this kind of stuff. This is just rank anti-semitism that is trying to dismiss the star of David as uh as a false god. **[12:00]** >> Well, yeah. And trying to associate the Jewish people who invented all like whose book you you still use Christian person to say uh to say that the Jewish people are are the idolatrous ones. >> Yes. >> I think it's so interesting. But I and yeah, you know, the a a an anti-semitic video was sort of our jumping off point for looking at this. But what became instantly more interesting to me as as I was reading about this is this uh sort **[12:32]** of old ancient view of the stars and the heavens as not not like you know we think of them you know planets and stars as sort of inert >> balls of gas burning billions of miles away giant rocks whatever you got. But they were when when you know going back to Acts seven when Stephen says, "But God turned away from them and h handed them over to the worship of the host of **[13:04]** heaven." >> Mhm. >> The host of heaven is not a group of It is a group of gods, but it's the stars. It's the planets. Yeah. Those are the gods. >> Yes. So the the host is tava in Hebrew. Um that means it's like military host. It's uh it's a a group of of soldiers and and this the idea of the stars is the host of heaven descends from this notion that the stars are gods that they **[13:35]** are God's army >> right and when and I think all of the ancient world had some version of this which is why you know we associate you know Saturn the the the planets themselves are not named after gods they're associated with gods because they were gods >> yes you You know what I mean? Like Saturn and Venus and all these things, they were the gods. That was the god. He's up there looking down on us. And the reason that they chose the planets specifically was because those are the **[14:06]** ones that move around in the night sky. >> Yes. The wanderers. >> Yeah. >> Because they're not they're they're not in a fixed pattern. Um and we you see this in in Pho, you see this in Paul, the idea that that those are gods. And Pho is pretty explicit. The stars are gods. And uh there and we can go to Deuteronomy. There's an interesting uh part in Deuteronomy 4. When you look up to the heavens and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of **[14:36]** heaven, do not be led astray and bow down to them and serve them. Things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven. And so, according to Deuteronomy 4, they're the gods that the nations worship. God created the the host of heaven so that the nations would have uh deities to worship but Israel must only worship Adonai and Israel must not follow the worship practices that the other nations **[15:07]** use to worship those other gods. So the host of heaven work for God, but they're also considered the the idolatrous uh gods of the heathens. and >> and and and yet again we have this idea that that keeps popping up for us which is the idea that these are not that that there isn't just one god >> right >> and you know they place their god over and above these other gods and maybe make him the creator god of these other **[15:37]** gods or whatever >> but it's very specific that these are other gods like the like the other the people in Babylon or you know Moab or whatever are worship they're not worshiping a god that doesn't exist. They're worshiping a god that does exist but isn't your god, right? >> Sort of thing. >> Yeah, precisely. Um and and you see this in in a number of places in the pre-exilic literature, but it lasts down into the New Testament. And for **[16:08]** instance, the the idea that the other gods are ruled by the the other nations are ruled by other patron deities. You know, this is Deuteronomy 32:8. This is uh God goes down to Egypt in the Exodus to uh to render judgment upon the gods of Egypt. Uh you have David telling Saul as Saul is pursuing David and and like chasing him outside of the land of Israel, David's complaining, "Your men are forcing me to worship other gods by forcing me out of Adoni's inheritance." **[16:39]** There are a bunch of of manifestations of that idea. And even in Deuteriah, this is supposed to be like the high watermark of uh biblical monotheism. You even have in dudero Isaiah God saying, you know, who who musters the host of heaven and names them and not one is missing. Like that that's talking about calling the gods out to muster for battle and all of them show up cuz they all obey the God of Israel. Not one is **[17:10]** missing. and and the God of Israel knows all their names and and commands them. And uh the uh it is in the uh the song of Deborah in Judges 5 when they are they're fighting against the Canaanite general Cicora. And it says, "The stars in their courses fought against Cicora," which is another reference to the idea that the stars not only are deities, but also are armies, right? **[17:40]** >> And they can be called upon to come fight against the enemies of the people of God. So, it's it's all throughout the Hebrew Bible and and again, even down into the New Testament where they're frequently referred to as uh powers, principalities, and powers and dominions and and stuff like that. Those are the the references to powers in Paul frequently and and I haven't looked at to see if it's unilaterally but frequently that's references to divine beings that are identifiable as stars. **[18:12]** >> Uh so when you get into later rabbitic literature there's this famous debate in rabbitic literature about two powers in heaven. And this is supposed to be kind of a euphemistic way to refer to the heresy about there being two gods in heaven. The main god and then like a deputy god. And some folks think that this has to do with with Christianity. But there are other Jewish scholars who are will argue it seems to just have to do with this idea of a kind of subordinationism in early Judaism where there was some kind of mediatory figure **[18:45]** that was was being endorsed by Jewish folks. So that's that's an ongoing debate. But um but powers are gods. >> All I know is that when you said a main god and a deputy god, I had Andy Andy Gre and [laughter] Barney Fe jump in to hit my head. >> Yeah. The deputy god gets one bullet and he has [clears throat] to carry it around in his pocket. >> Andy Andy [laughter] ain't need. Uh that made that made me very happy. Let me ask you this. Uh, one of the things that I found when I was looking up some of this stuff was **[19:16]** references to a an ancient Hebrew zodiac. Um, um, so like can we get a little bit into that? Because so one of the things that we see is, you know, Adonai is our god. Is Adonai one of the one of the star gods or is he separate from the stars? considered considered separate because you have the the sun, the moon, the stars, all the host of heaven that is **[19:46]** all distinct from and subordinate to Adonai. >> Okay. >> Although although in the earliest periods you do have some indications that Adonai worship of Adonai was associated with worship of the sun. >> Okay. >> So there there is it probably had was in some periods associated with astral phenomena. >> Okay. Well, one of the things that keep keeps popping up that even I've noticed but then uh when in my reading was associated then with this astrology **[20:17]** business is the number 12. 12 tribes of Israel, 12 stones on the high priest's breastplate, >> right? >> 12 loaves in the temple, all of this stuff. And people were connecting that with signs of a zodiac. Um, mazerot. Is that a word that I'm that I'm looking for? [laughter] >> Matzerot. Yes, that's that occurs in the book of Job. Uh, and that's probably a reference to uh the Mazerot just means the the stars or the constellations. **[20:49]** >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. So, um I don't know that it's uh some I I think it's the majority position that this is a reference to constellations, the zodiac. uh Job is is Persian period. So if this is influenced by uh Zoroastrian astrology, then it could be a direct reference to uh the the 12 signs of the zodiac. But that's it. That's the only you you have I think you have some references that are generally that are **[21:20]** translated like uh the Pleades or something like that. >> Uhhuh. But uh but when it comes to the zodiac, that's the closest you get is the book. >> So uh so did do you think that there's anything to this idea that the the number 12 is popping up as a zodiacal reference? >> No. Um I I don't think there's a case to make for that because it the the number 12 is significant long before we see any references to a zodiac. And so, so I think it's it's more likely **[21:52]** just that that this is a a number that became highly significant early on in in the history of Israel. And you've got a bunch of those 3, 7, 12, 70, 40. There there are a bunch of numbers that are symbolic and have significance and so get repeated an awful lot. Um, so so I I don't think there's a good case to make for that. >> Okay. I guess it was I guess it was as a reference to the temple itself and was talking about this the the stones on the breastplate and uh 12 loaves in the **[22:24]** temple. >> Okay. >> 12 pillars and and they were talking about the the temple as a sort of model for the cosmos or whatever. >> Yeah. There there's a case to make for that and and the a lot of the texts about the temple are probably exilic or maybe even post exoic. So that's much closer to that. >> But the significance of 12, I think, predates that. >> Um, and and you know, it's it's a it's a there's a much shorter line to draw from 12 tribes to 12 stones, 12 pillars, 12 **[22:58]** 12 everything. So, >> right, that makes total sense. >> Yeah. But but I it would be I would be interested to see uh what a a close interrogation of the number 12 uh throughout the history of Israel reveals uh because >> it doesn't seem obvious to me that 12 would necessarily, you know, different cultures looking at the sky might not subdivide it into 12 the way many cultures have. Like it like it that just seems like an arbitrary **[23:30]** division. You don't need to divide things into 12. But maybe I'm not I look I'm I am neither an astrologer nor an astronomer. So [laughter] I uh I I I don't necessarily know. >> All I know is that it's the age of Aquarius. >> It's the dawning of that. >> The dawning of Well, it was it was the dawning back in the 60s. >> Back in the 60s. We got to be there by now, right? >> Yeah. Certainly. [laughter] Certainly. Yeah. in the year 2525. If man is still alive and they were, **[24:00]** >> they'll they'll they'll get there hopefully. >> Well, yeah, we turns out we were still alive then. Um, all right. Anything else we wanted to get into in terms of astrology? Did the magi? Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the Zoroast the Zoroastrians and we, you know, when we talked about the magi, they were likely Zoroastrian >> uh priests or whatever or astrologers >> scholars. Yes. Poet warrior kings or [laughter] whatever. Yeah. Um I should have said that in a Scottish accent, but **[24:32]** um no, the I Yeah, the the magi that that's such a fascinating bit of astrology because it it's like they're not they're not Israelites. They're not Jewish folks, right? >> They come from a completely different region, a completely different ethnic group, a completely different tradition. >> And it's like, look, their divinatory practices were accurate. Yeah. Right. >> Is that what the author is trying to say? >> Yeah. The the author is like, "Hey, these guys know what they're talking about." >> Yeah. If they tell you that the the **[25:03]** stars are telling you something, they got it right here. So, >> yeah. Um, which which I think is uh I would love to see somebody tease out the implications of that a little more because it it just suggests to me that the author, in my opinion, the author of Matthew is probably just toying with how obvious it is that that this was a sign of of the coming of the the Savior. That even those those goofballs out in uh in the Zagros Mountains over there, they even they can figure it out. And and and **[25:33]** here we have Herod going, "I don't know what's going on. Yeah, >> um what's the uh Goomer? >> Uh I don't even remember [laughter] the character's names. >> Andy. Andy. >> Um the the other one thing that I thought I would just dive into just a little bit. >> Okay. >> Because it's always confused me is uh Venus aka Morning Star. Yes. aka somebody in a Isaiah aka Lucifer aka **[26:06]** what are we talking that that one got me really messed up. >> Well, the you have in in Isaiah 14:12, you have the a sarcastic reference to the king of Babylon. Like the text is explicitly saying, "Okay, and now I'm going to talk about the king of Babylon." And then it uh sarcastically refers to him exalting his throne over the stars of God. >> Okay. and uh and and talks about you know how you have fallen uh and refers to him as uh Ben Shakar which would be shining one son of the dawn and this **[26:37]** would seem to be a couple of different ways to refer to the king sarcastically as some kind of deity associated with the planet Venus. Okay, >> because Venus was was widely um divized and and considered an important deity in so many different pantheons. And so when you get down to the Septuagent, they render it um heospheros, which would be uh lightbearer. >> And so it's not it's they're not **[27:08]** transliterating it. and and that is evidently a name that is occasionally used to refer to a deity in the pantheon associated with the planet Venus. And then when you get down to the Latin, they use Lucifer, which is also a name that is used occasionally to refer to a deity in the pantheon that is associated with the planet Venus. And you also have Lucifer. Uh there's a there's a passage in I want to say it's first Peter. I could it could be second Peter. It's in one of the Peters. um Pete and Pete **[27:40]** >> um just as a call back to to the good old days of the Nickelodeon 90s. Um but it talks about the uh the morning star rising in your hearts and that is supposed to be a reference to Jesus and in the vulgate it's rendered Lucifer. So so the Latin vulgate is clearly not using Lucifer to mean something bad. In fact, there was in the 300s CE a bishop named Lucifer. >> Oh, wow. Yeah. >> Yeah. Which was just lightbearer or **[28:10]** lightbringer. And so you can see how that could be associated with with Jesus. And then after you identify Lucifer with Satan, then Lucifer becomes uh a naughty name and a naughty character. You're not. >> Somebody needs to Somebody go out after you've seen this and do a video that we can then respond to where you claim that Jesus is actually Satan because of the Lucifer Lucifer creation. >> There are there are more than enough people getting millions of views on v **[28:42]** videos uh saying that and a lot of them will uh a lot of them are usingnosticism to do it. >> Okay? Because one of one ofnosticism's claims based on this middle platonic cosmogy that suggests that the material world is bad. And so whichever deity created the material world was bad. And so thenosticism certain um streams of tradition withinnosticism reinterpret the Hebrew Bible as a story of the evil kind of JV **[29:14]** squad deity who trapped us in these fleshly prisons. And so nowadays you get the people who are like well yeahnosticism and we can bring the luciferian stuff into it too and so it just resonates at a higher frequency and then you get into frequencies and so [laughter] yeah there are plenty of people doing that out there. >> All right. Well there you go. Uh what a fun weird uh sort of difficult to follow grouping of things uh that that was. But I really **[29:47]** enjoy it. Uh, hey, listen friends. If you would like to become a part of making this show happen, and boy, we'd really appreciate it if you would if you do. Uh, head on over to patreon.com/data overdogma. And, uh, that's where you can get early and adfree versions of each episode. You can get the afterparty, which is bonus content that we do for you. There's a lot of a lot of stuff happening over there. or who knows, maybe new stuff will start happening. **[30:18]** We'll do some patrons only stuff. You don't know, we might. Uh, and if we do, you're going to want to be a part of it. So, head on over there. We sure do appreciate you. We also appreciate Roger Gaudy for editing the show. And we will talk to y'all next time. Bye, everybody. [music]