Bowen Yang's 'Wicked' White Lie  ## Metadata - Author: [[Fresh Air]] - Full Title: Bowen Yang's 'Wicked' White Lie - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/b7c477a4-063a-4372-b559-41319336b7a9 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Long Road To SNL** - Bowen auditioned for SNL multiple times with quirky, hyper-specific characters and impressions filmed in a friend's basement. - He eventually got hired as a writer after years of callbacks and persistence. Transcript: Bowen Yang But back then, just because it was, your first round was five minutes of characters and impressions. And my manager at the time said, you should put in a tape. And on a lark, I said, sure. I mean, they'll never hire an effeminate Asian man for that show. And I just called up my buddy one day, Doug Wiedek. I went to his basement in Williamsburg, and I put on all these different wigs and hats and just ran through five minutes of characters and impressions. Michiko Kakutani was one of my impressions. It was really esoteric. Terry Gross I was like, there's no— That's what I was going to say. She was the New York Times book critic. How many people really know who the New York Times book critic is? Right. Bowen Yang And I think I was probably leaning into it or counting on it being like, okay, the joke here is so hyper-specific that at least you know, as an audience, what the perspective is. The point of view is, like, okay, this is someone who, you know, is going to use the word limned in an impression, you know what I mean? And I actually met her recently. Oh, did she know? Oh, she knew. And she was so, I was so starstruck to meet her. And she's just this really sweet lovely person who for a long time like commanded the way books were sold I mean it was it was just incredible to meet her and you know we talked about this And I mean my portrayal of her because she had only been photographed twice before and there was no like vocal recording of her speaking like I took that as an open interpretation of like What she would sound like so I like really leaned into like this like aggressive bullish person who was just tearing into Toni Morrison for whatever reason you know even though that's You know not what she did but I I just had fun with it and you was me calling Jonathan Franzen a hack or something. These are things that Michiko Kakutani would never have done. And I cleared all these rounds and then auditioned the first year in 2017, made it all the way to the Lauren meetings, did a callback where they tell you, okay, now come up with five more Minutes of new material. And it's like when an artist releases a sophomore album, it's like, well, the first album is what their whole life had led up to at that point and now you have to like ask them to do something New in terms of output and you know i had to really dip back into the well and there wasn't much water in there and so it was multiple rounds of that you know one year of not getting it coming Back another summer doing another few rounds, and finally getting hired to write there, which was very fun. ([Time 0:08:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/61b8a42d-3054-48d5-9a83-4ccc34a5f21c)) - **Writing Built His Stagecraft** - Writing at SNL taught Bowen the show's nonverbal cues and backstage mechanics that later guided his on-screen choices. - He credits that writing season with preparing him to perform without being set up for failure. Transcript: Terry Gross What sketches would you be best at? Who were you on the show? Bowen Yang Yeah, I think my first season of writing on the show was probably so helpful in terms of understanding all of these nonverbal cues. And I think learning the ropes and taking my lumps that first season where, you know, as a writer, you would have to sit next to Lorne each week and have him give notes on your sketch at dress Rehearsal. You know, you really develop this internal sense of, okay, I understand how the show works in this very underpinned way. That instinct will sort of guide you towards how to succeed on the show on both your own terms and on the writer's and Lauren's terms and on the audience's terms, most importantly. And I really credit that first season that Lauren has told me since, like, was the intention. He was just like, I wasn't going to put you out there without a paddle. Like, you're going to be scrutinized in a very different way. And I was not going to set you up for failure. ([Time 0:11:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b399a279-ba34-400c-aeac-8235a1a1c2c5)) - **Regulate Emotions During High Pressure** - Develop emotional regulation to survive SNL's intense, cyclical workload and repeated high-stakes nights. - Use the show's training to manage many stimuli and handle pressure in other projects. Transcript: Bowen Yang Sure. And those breaks are still not enough, I would say. Like, I think everyone has this shared thing when we are in the season where we come back from those breaks and we're like gosh I was just getting back on my feet and here I am like about to Get knocked down again like it is a very um no matter what no matter if you're succeeding or if you are struggling in some way, which is the universal SNL experience, as Andy really poetically Rendered in that sketch. Like, I think that you just have to develop some kind of emotional regulation. And that is a very hard thing to ask comedians to do. Part of the reason why we become comedians is because we are dysregulated emotionally, right? And like our way of sort of exercising something or just rationalizing something that we're going through is to do comedy about it. But on top of the generative thing that we're doing at SNL, which is to write comedy, like it is just a very high-stakes situation that I wasn't sure for a while, like, what the upside was. I was like, okay, it's great that I'm on TV, but also, like, I have no personal life. I don't see my friends. You know, I can't take opportunities that come during the season. Like, I don't know how this balances out. And then when we were doing the Culture Awards this year, our director was Liz Patrick, who's also our wonderful director at SNL, a lot of SNL alums in terms of the production staff and The producers and the writers were from SNL around the time that I was there. And I realized in the weeks leading up to the award show, I was like, oh, this is what SNL gives you in terms of like a boon or something. ([Time 0:13:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0f9dd73e-8432-41a4-9de9-8f70d7d7e5b6)) - **Low Concept, Big Reach** - Las Culturistas began as two friends' low-concept pop-culture playdate that unexpectedly grew into a major podcast and themed awards. - The show succeeded by leaning into maximalist, nonsensical categories and genuine chemistry. Transcript: Terry Gross And the subject of this episode was the Grammys. So it's you and Matt Rogers. Yay, yay, yay. Bowen Yang Ding Hello, everybody. This is the Las Culturistas podcast. I'm Matt Rogers. I'm Bowen Ying. And yes, we are Las Culturistas. What that means is we are your culture consultants. We are out here to improve culture. We're here to heighten culture. We're here to talk about the big cultural events that you see happening on your television screens, on your laptops, on your mobile phones. On so many. We're in a 360. Dong! World. Let me tell you. Matt put this very eloquently a few moments ago. Off the record, he said we're going to attack culture, we're going to improve culture, and we're going to irrigate culture. This attack on your sentences right now, what this is, is Matt and Bowen's Lost Culture Recess podcast. What we're doing is we're talking about big things that you've seen like the Grammys, the Oscars, the Super Bowl, maybe some debates happening, election season. We're talking about big, big, big ass events that you're all talking about. We're talking about them too and let me tell you, we've got notes. We've got notes, honey. We've got some feedback that is constructive and sometimes destructive. Oh, absolutely. Honey, we are not limiting this to events either. I don't think so, honey. We are going after some cultural institutions. Yeah, like today, we're really coming for the music industry. Honey, the music industry is a monolith. Yeah. And we're not afraid. I'm not afraid. To speak truth to power. Ay-yi I mean, my voice is at a whole different octave. Wow. I heard you groaning. I was groaning. Terry Gross So what else were you groaning about? Bowen Yang This is, well, this is very similar to when they were showing me my audition from, you know, eight years ago. This is the thing. Like, these are all a series of larks. Like, you know, we never thought that the podcast would get any listenership. I mean, this kind of summarizes the whole premise of the podcast. It's just two friends talking to each other. It was just an excuse for Matt and I to have a play date every week. We pitched this network. All these ideas that were very high concept. We settled on the one that was the lowest concept, which was just a pop culture podcast, two people talking. But we just somehow watched it grow. And the same goes for the awards. ([Time 0:17:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dbf6a95d-a24c-4b6d-b1a8-01ccfceac8e6)) - **Culture As An Immigrant Crash Course** - Pop culture helped Bowen rapidly learn English and integrate after moving from Quebec to Colorado. - Weekly cultural touchpoints like SNL functioned as a crash course in belonging and social language. Transcript: Bowen Yang I was obsessed with pop culture as a closeted Canadian kid who then moved to the States and had to sort of re-acclimate to this new culture. It was this big shock to move from Quebec to Colorado, where I was speaking primarily French at school and Mandarin in the house. And then, you know, suddenly I had to fast track to English. I mean, pop culture was this expedited way for me to get on board with what people were talking about at school and what people were talking about at a birthday party or the shows that we Would watch when we would have playdates or something like that. I say this like SNL was this crash course in pop culture for me every week. But the thing that made me love culture was the way that it gets digested, which happens to be what SNL kind of is. And, you know, I was going to bring this up earlier when we were talking about the awards. Like, Matt and I, we get this question asked, you know, in this inverted way when we're talking to people. They ask us, what was the culture that made you guys say culture was for you? And then both of our answers are the 1998 Oscars, where, you know, it was Billy Crystal hosting, it was James Cameron doing I'm the King of the World. You know, it was just the culmination of the year, which felt dominated by Titanic. And it was all funneled into this one night where Billy Crystal was doing song and dance numbers and where the pageantry of showbiz was kind of like almost grotesquely on display. And so like that was just it was intoxicating to a child. ([Time 0:23:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4a385715-524c-4014-b997-8043eb06f336)) - **Avoiding The Personal Narrative Loop** - Bowen worries about repeating personal stories and avoids getting trapped by a single defining narrative. - He seeks new, less-told angles to excavate in interviews rather than rehashing the same struggles. Transcript: Terry Gross I'd love to hear how you draw and then redraw the line between what's public and what's private. Like I know for myself, I'm always questioning myself before I get interviewed. Like what do I want to share and what's really too private to share? And I know the interview will probably be more interesting if I share more, but part of me just wants to stay private, which is strange considering that as the interviewer, I want people To tell me anything that they're comfortable telling me, the more the better. So, you know, as somebody who is an increasingly public figure, does the line keep shifting? And where is it now? Bowen Yang Whether or not I want the line to shift, I think it's not relevant anymore. I think people have probably learned most of what there is to learn about me. Terry Gross So it's too late. Bowen Yang These light red lines these like pink lines on like what i don't want to talk about just in any kind of public interview or any kind of public way where i'm like oh i think people have heard About my experience with let's say conversion therapy a million times or people know about the struggle i was going through when i was shooting wicked in terms of the travel back and Forth and mostly i'm concerned with like okay how many times have I like played this track? You know what I mean? I don't ever want to be on a loop. And that is the thing that I think maybe entraps some people, certainly myself. If I keep playing the same thing over and over again out loud or in my head, I feel like I get a little bit caged by it. Like it calcifies around me in a way that makes me go well this is the definitive thing about me the definitive thing about me is that I have mental health struggles who doesn't the definitive Thing about me is that I you know don't know what the line is in terms of sharing my personal life even not to get too meta about it but I feel like I just and you're so good at this too it's like We just want to excavate something and peel back something that is somewhat new, that hasn't really been exposed before. And I think I'm just in search of that constantly. It's not that I don't want to talk about things. ([Time 0:29:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f29696e6-3f09-40ad-bcff-893026449333)) - **Trip Back To Inner Mongolia** - Bowen visited his father's rural hometown in Inner Mongolia and saw pre-technological farm life and handmade home features. - The trip gave him perspective after moving between glitzy pop-culture life and his family's simpler roots. Transcript: Bowen Yang Incredibly rural, still is. I mean, there's been a lot of urban development there. But my dad was the first in his family to go to college. And right at the tail end of the Cultural Revolution, you know, in the 80s, he was in the first class of Chinese youth with my mother to be able to, you know, study abroad and, you know, get Their degrees elsewhere. And they were allowed to leave the country. And so there was this big wave of immigration out of China in the 80s. So my mom is from a city in Liaoning, which is a province north of North Korea. And then Inner Mongolia, where my dad's from, is a misnomer. It's not in Mongolia, but it's the province that is south of Mongolia that borders it. So my dad grew up in a family of subsistence farmers, just growing potatoes and canola and whatever the weather allowed. And, you know, a town of, I would say, 200 people. I mean, it's just an incredibly different life. And so even going back this summer, right after the culture awards, the day after the culture awards was such, I can't imagine a bigger whiplash. You know, my dad showed me all of these things that he built into the house, these little closets, like where, you know, the fires would go to heat the beds, like all of these incredibly Pre-technological things. You know, they were a happy family of farmers who had no access with urban life or any greater life outside of their township. It's pretty remarkable to think about. I get kind of overwhelmed at it, honestly. You know, it was kind of refreshing. I mean, it really was just to like go from this place where the value system was in comedy and in pop culture and in, you know, glitz and glamour and fame. And, you know, even though we're poking fun at it, like it was still buying into the system. Right. And so to go from there to China where no one had heard, no one even knows like what a red carpet is, you know, like what that looks like in LA or in the States. ([Time 0:34:49](https://share.snipd.com/snip/318615b4-f345-4f7a-a570-5b046b62fcf0)) - **Parents' Acceptance Shifted With Success** - Bowen's parents worried about his prospects when he pursued comedy, and acceptance grew as he gained financial stability and visible success. - External validation from his mother's peers helped shift her perspective on his career. Transcript: Terry Gross Your parents were initially upset you were gay. Bowen Yang What was the turning point for them in realizing like it's okay yeah i think this was more about like a concern for how difficult life would be and i understand that perspective yeah for Me i think once they saw me sort of becoming famous well yeah this is like the thought experiment that i don't like to have necessarily. But I think it was after I was like financially stable, because I think it was compounded by the fact that I was trying to be a comedian professionally and that I was going on auditions And not booking the parts, which is, you know, so commonplace and it happens more often than not. I think they were just seeing this as like, oh, no, he is struggling in all these different ways. And therefore, we are just worried about him. And it all just, you know, they couldn't tell where one thing ended and another began. Right. And so I think once they saw certain dreams come to light, I think that's when they were a little bit more relieved. Terry Gross And maybe when they found what a huge following you had and how much people loved you, that helped too? Bowen Yang I would always tell my parents, like, you know, I would book sundry jobs on comedy shows here and there. Like, hey, Mom, like, I'm on the show called Broad City or I'm on the show called High Maintenance. Just things that New York comedians would book an appearance on and it was always, like, a very exciting thing. Didn't mean anything to them matt and i did a segment of i don't think so honey on the tonight show and then my mom went into work the next day and then all of her co-workers were like you must Be so proud that bowen was on the tonight show doing comedy and oh my goodness he was that was when it took some sort of external validation through like her peers for her to be like, OK, Maybe he's going to be OK. ([Time 0:38:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1c9cb6b3-8a9f-422e-b8d6-0d7e41739c6d)) - **Wicked Was A Lifelong Obsession** - Bowen loved Wicked long before seeing it and once lied about seeing it to fit into theater culture. - He finally saw the show as an adult and felt the emotional immediacy he prized from the recording. Transcript: Terry Gross Mm-hmm. And I have to say, it's a pretty small part. Bowen Yang It was small. It was very tiny. Terry Gross Yeah, but Wicked means a lot to you. When was the first time you saw Wicked? And I assume that was on stage, obviously. Yes. When was the first time you saw her? How old were you? And what did it mean to you? Why did it reach you so deeply? Bowen Yang So the interesting thing about Wicked is that I didn't get to see it until I was well into my adulthood. Like I was even, gosh, I had this really weird compulsion around like not lying, but just like embellishing the truth growing up and it's developed into this thing now where I'm a terrible Liar I can't do it as an adult as someone in their 30s but like growing up it was this thing of like well if you didn't see wicked then like you have no business being you know someone in the Like a theater kid or you know what I mean like it was just when it came out it was just such a phenomenon 2003, I was in high school and I remember going to the library, getting the original Broadway cast recording. And it was life changing even in that entry point. And the thing that I would embellish, especially around late high school, I was just like, yeah, yeah, I saw like the national tour of it. I never did, Terry. I think I just made up this lie because it felt like the right thing to say in order to like justify this passion that I had for like musical theater. And I saw it finally for the first time on the West End in London in 2022, I would say, or 2021. Like it was really crazy how I was like, wow, this is all culminating into this moment where I'm like finally seeing the show that has still meant so much to me. And I knew it front to back. And I just remember seeing it for the first time. I saw it with my co-writer at SNL, Celestiem, and they were a playwright. They were a trained playwright. And I turned to them, I go, wow, like this is incredible. Like theater is like the most emotionally immediate form of entertainment. Right. Like and they were like, yeah, I mean, that's the beauty of it. Like it's just when Elphaba sings those high notes, like you feel it in your soul. Like going through my personal history and being like, why did I like feel the need to say that I'd seen this when I didn't have this actual material encounter with it until much later? Terry Gross It was not the answer I was expecting. Bowen Yang No, I know. It's like, you know, I've shared this, but it's not something that like I, it's weird. It's like, I don't want it to make it seem like I was, or still am like someone who doesn't tell the truth. It was just this thing that I felt the pressure to like, have some sort of social proof of where I had to be like, yeah, you know, like I did see it, but we were just not a theater going family. We just didn't have that access. Like thank goodness for public libraries. Like I went to the library and I sought it out and I kept that CD in my Walkman for weeks. ([Time 0:43:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/841c1cbd-c28d-42d6-b24a-9df078bee362))