Bring Me the Head of John the Baptist! - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Bring Me the Head of John the Baptist! ![rw-book-cover](https://wsrv.nl/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmegaphone.imgix.net%2Fpodcasts%2F30d5272c-5647-11ee-88ea-bb95a2d4cc1b%2Fimage%2Fe41a5a837d9ebec718d0b7e9c778f9b1.png%3Fixlib%3Drails-4.3.1%26max-w%3D3000%26max-h%3D3000%26fit%3Dcrop%26auto%3Dformat%2Ccompress&w=512&h=512) ## Document Notes > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [biblical_studies, new_testament, historical_criticism] > author: Data Over Dogma > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXYzhxc6jx0 > date created: 2024-12-19 12:45 > > # 🏷️ Title: Bring Me the Head of John the Baptist! >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Examine manuscript variants in Mark 6:22 regarding daughter's name — textual criticism #biblical_studies - [H2] Research Herodian dynasty genealogy — confusing family relationships #historical_context - [H3] Compare literary motifs with Hebrew Bible parallels — intertextuality analysis #comparative_literature ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Data Over Dogma YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvBQM_VB8cN3qJVtCYwWHLw) - [Josephus Antiquities 18.5.2](https://www.josephus.org/) ## 📝 Summary - Academic analysis of John the Baptist's death across Gospel accounts and Josephus - Demonstrates historical accuracy through multiple attestation while revealing literary embellishment - Shows decreasing emphasis on John the Baptist from Mark to John's Gospel - Contrasts motivations between Gospel accounts (reluctant execution) and Josephus (political calculation) - Establishes this as one of few multiply-attested events in Jesus tradition ## 📖 Main Content The death of John the Baptist represents a unique case in New Testament studies where we have both Gospel narratives and independent historical attestation. Unlike most Gospel stories that expand from shortest (Mark) to longest (Matthew), this account reverses the pattern: Mark provides the most detailed version, Matthew shortens it, Luke mentions it only in passing, and John's Gospel ignores it entirely. The Gospel accounts focus on palace intrigue involving Herod Antipas, his wife Herodias (formerly married to his brother Philip), and her daughter (traditionally called Salome). John the Baptist condemned their marriage as unlawful, leading to his imprisonment and eventual execution following the daughter's dance and request for John's head "on a platter." Josephus, writing as a contemporary historian, provides a starkly different motivation: Herod killed John preemptively because he feared John's influence might inspire rebellion. This political calculation aligns better with what we know of Herod's character than the Gospel portrayal of a reluctant ruler pressured by an oath. The literary elements in the Gospel accounts - including parallels to the Esther story ("up to half my kingdom") and the Elijah-Jezebel narrative - suggest theological rather than strictly historical purposes in their telling. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to John the Baptist's death - Key idea: Multiple Gospel accounts plus Josephus provide rare historical attestation - Evidence: "multiply attested and is widely accepted by scholars" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=150) — [H2] Unique pattern - longest to shortest accounts - Key idea: Unlike most Gospel stories, this one gets shorter in later Gospels - Evidence: "Mark's description is the longest. Matthew's is next. Luke is just me. And then John the Baptist doesn't even mention his death at all" #### ⏱️ [04:15](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=255) — [H3] Theory about diminishing John's importance - Key idea: Later Gospels minimize John to elevate Jesus's status - Evidence: "John the Baptist was the bigger deal in the time frame... somehow these books need to find a way to supplant his fame" #### ⏱️ [06:00](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=360) — [H1] Herodian dynasty complexity - Key idea: Multiple Herods with similar names create confusion - Evidence: "Herod the Great... he's got a bunch of Herodians as children... Herod Philip I Herod Archelaus Herod Antipus" #### ⏱️ [09:45](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=585) — [H2] Mark's detailed narrative - Key idea: Mark 6:14-29 provides most elaborate version with palace intrigue - Evidence: "16 verses... Herod arrested John and put him in prison because John had complained about Herod's marriage" #### ⏱️ [13:20](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=800) — [H3] Literary parallels to Hebrew Bible - Key idea: Story mirrors Elijah-Ahab-Jezebel and Esther narratives - Evidence: "John the Baptist would condemn the king and then the king's wife would come after John... just like the story of Elijah condemning Ahab" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=930) — [H2] Birthday celebration detail - Key idea: Biblical villains celebrate birthdays, not heroes - Evidence: "only a few times when birthdays are celebrated and it's always by the villain... one of the reasons Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays" #### ⏱️ [17:45](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=1065) — [H1] Matthew's version differences - Key idea: Matthew 14:1-12 shows Herod wanting to kill John but fearing crowds - Evidence: "Herod wanted to put him to death, but he feared the crowd because they regarded him as a prophet" #### ⏱️ [20:10](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=1210) — [H3] Luke's minimal treatment - Key idea: Luke 9:7-9 reduces story to brief mention - Evidence: "Luke does not feel it is necessary to narrate the reasons for John's beheading" #### ⏱️ [21:30](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=1290) — [H2] John's Gospel omits death entirely - Key idea: Fourth Gospel focuses on subordination theme instead - Evidence: "He must increase, but I must decrease... that's it" #### ⏱️ [23:15](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=1395) — [H1] Josephus provides historical context - Key idea: Antiquities 18.5.2 gives different motivation - political fear - Evidence: "Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power... to raise a rebellion" #### ⏱️ [26:45](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=1605) — [H2] Contrasting motivations revealed - Key idea: Gospels show reluctant Herod vs. Josephus showing calculated politician - Evidence: "Matthew... he feared the crowd... Josephus... he was worried about John's influence... I better kill him" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=1710) — [H3] Historical vs. literary purposes - Key idea: Gospel characterizations don't match historical personalities - Evidence: "the personalities... they're putting into the heads of the characters... don't really fit with what we know historically" ## 📚 References - [Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.2](https://www.josephus.org/) - [Mark 6:14-29](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6%3A14-29&version=NRSV) - [Matthew 14:1-12](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+14%3A1-12&version=NRSV) - [Luke 9:7-9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+9%3A7-9&version=NRSV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The death of John the Baptist is historically attested by both Gospel writers and the independent historian Josephus, making it one of the most reliable events in early Christian tradition - The Gospel accounts become progressively shorter from Mark to John, suggesting later writers wanted to minimize John's importance relative to Jesus - While the Gospels present elaborate palace intrigue with reluctant execution, Josephus describes a calculated political assassination to prevent potential rebellion ## 📰 Newsletter **Biblical Scholars Examine the Death of John the Baptist** New analysis reveals fascinating patterns in how early Christian writers handled one of the few historically attested events from Jesus's era. Unlike typical Gospel development where stories grow longer, accounts of John the Baptist's execution actually shrink from Mark's detailed palace drama to John's complete omission. The scholarly consensus confirms this event through "multiple attestation" - both Gospel sources and the independent historian Josephus record John's death under Herod Antipas. However, their motivations differ dramatically: the Gospels portray a reluctant ruler trapped by an oath, while Josephus describes cold political calculation. This case study offers valuable insights into how theological concerns shaped historical narratives in early Christianity, and demonstrates the importance of comparing biblical accounts with contemporary sources. Resources: [Society of Biblical Literature](https://sbl-site.org/), [Biblical Archaeology Society](https://biblicalarchaeology.org/), [Josephus.org](https://www.josephus.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create visualization tools for Gospel comparison analysis - Education: Develop workshops on historical-critical methodology - Developer experience: Improve biblical database query interfaces #### Community - Maintainers: Support digital humanities projects examining biblical texts - Contributors: Encourage interdisciplinary collaboration between biblical studies and data science - Ecosystem: Foster connections between religious studies and open source communities #### WordPress - Documentation: Create guides for academic content management - Accessibility: Ensure biblical study resources meet accessibility standards ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Later Gospel writers systematically minimized John the Baptist's role to elevate Jesus - Literary motifs in Gospel accounts indicate theological rather than historical purposes - Multiple attestation combined with divergent details suggests historical core with interpretive overlay - The birthday celebration detail serves as narrative marker for moral judgment ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative textual analysis across synoptic Gospels and John - Source criticism examining Josephus against Gospel accounts - Literary analysis identifying Hebrew Bible parallels and motifs - Historical-critical assessment of political context ### ❓ Questions - Why did manuscript traditions preserve different names for Herodias's daughter? - How did early Christian communities balance historical memory with theological messaging? - What other Gospel narratives show similar patterns of progressive shortening? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive analysis of multiple attestation in Gospel traditions - Comparative study of Josephus's reliability regarding Herodian dynasty events - Digital humanities approaches to tracking literary motifs across biblical and extra-biblical sources ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Historical-critical methods reveal layers of tradition and interpretation - Education: Multiple source comparison essential for understanding ancient events - Academic: Digital tools can enhance traditional biblical scholarship methods ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (complex academic vocabulary, lengthy sentences) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None in audio format - Improve: Family tree diagrams of Herodian dynasty, timeline graphics, text comparison charts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast-style discussion format with conversational tone - Improve: Chapter markers, summary audio clips #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive explanations, analogies, repeated clarifications - Improve: Glossary of terms, pronunciation guides for names #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None - Improve: Interactive timeline, clickable family trees, manuscript comparison tools #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic comparison across sources, cause-and-effect analysis - Improve: Decision trees, comparison matrices, chronological tables ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio format naturally accessible to screen readers when transcribed - Improve: Structured headings, proper alt text for any visual aids #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, audio descriptions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Academic Western Christian perspective - Improve: Include Jewish, Islamic, and non-Western interpretations of John the Baptist #### Representation - Present: Two male academics discussing - Improve: Diverse scholarly voices, global perspectives on biblical interpretation ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Multiple attestation principle correctly applied - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition across Gospel development well-supported - Comparative analysis: Josephus vs. Gospel accounts properly contextualized #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Generally appropriate citing of scholarly consensus - Tone: Conversational, accessible, appropriately academic without condescension ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No DARVO patterns detected - straightforward academic analysis - Balanced presentation of different source materials - Acknowledges limitations and uncertainties in historical reconstruction ## 🎯 Conclusion The death of John the Baptist provides a unique window into how early Christian writers balanced historical memory with theological messaging. The multiple attestation confirms the historical reality while revealing how different communities interpreted and utilized this event for their own purposes. This case study demonstrates both the value and limitations of historical-critical biblical scholarship. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Multiple attestation confirms historical events > [!quote] Bring Me the Head of John the Baptist! by Data Over Dogma via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "multiply attested and is widely accepted by scholars" Establishes reliability criteria for ancient events through independent sources. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=150) #historical_method #attestation ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Gospel development patterns reveal theological priorities > [!quote] Bring Me the Head of John the Baptist! > "Mark's description is the longest. Matthew's is next. Luke is just me" Demonstrates how later writers modified traditional material for theological purposes. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/IXYzhxc6jx0?t=150) #redaction_criticism #theological_editing ID:rw_002 ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Literary motifs indicate theological construction - Hebrew Bible parallels suggest narrative shaping rather than strict history - Links: [[Intertextuality]] [[Historical-Critical-Method]] #### [Z2] Political motivations more historically plausible than palace intrigue - Josephus's account aligns with known character traits of rulers - Links: [[Herodian-Dynasty]] [[Political-Assassination]] ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research Salome's actual historical role — multiple name traditions #research #historical_figures - [F2] Investigate birthday celebration patterns in ancient literature — cultural context #comparative_studies - [F3] Examine other cases of multiple attestation in Gospel traditions — methodology validation #biblical_studies --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] [music] [00:02] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen and I'm [00:04] Dan Beecher [00:05] >> and this is Data Over Dogma where we [00:08] increase public access to the academic [00:10] study of the Bible and religion and we [00:12] combat the spread of misinformation [00:14] about the same. How go the things Dan? [00:18] >> Things go great. We're having a lot of [00:20] fun. Uh we are going to dive deep into [00:25] the baptismal waters. Uh no we're not. [00:28] But we are [laughter] going to talk [00:30] about John the Baptist, the the moistest [00:33] guy in all of Galilee. Um who uh who [00:38] apparently died in the in the story. And [00:41] we are going to uh get into [00:43] >> his death and uh and and what it means. [00:46] It's a really fascinating thing. [00:48] >> Yeah. [00:48] >> So let's dive into our chapter and [00:50] verse. [00:52] [music] [00:54] >> Okay. And so for our chapter and verse [00:57] >> Mhm. Uh it's chapters and verses and [00:59] we've got uh we got most it's the [01:02] synaptic gospels really. [01:05] >> Really? Yeah. We we actually the gospel [01:08] of John just uh doesn't want to talk [01:10] about John the Baptist death at all. Uh [01:13] but it is the synoptics. It's Matthew, [01:15] Mark, and Luke. However, Luke also is [01:17] pretty uh pretty reticent about this. [01:20] Luke is [01:20] >> Luke is sparse. [01:22] >> Yes. Just mentions it in passing. So, [01:24] it's really just Matthew and Mark that [01:26] go into any detail about this. [01:29] >> And then there's Josephus, [01:31] >> right? [01:31] >> So, we also have a separate account of [01:34] John the Baptist being put to death. So, [01:38] >> and that's a fascinating I I'm look [01:40] forward to getting to the Josephus part [01:42] of this conversation because [01:45] uh it attests very strongly to this [01:50] being an actual event that occurred. [01:53] >> Yes. as opposed like like so much of [01:57] what we read [01:58] >> isn't attested in extra biblical [02:02] uh [02:04] manuscripts or whatever, [02:05] >> right? [02:05] >> And this one is very very much so very [02:08] much uh attested. [02:10] >> Now the the motivations for it disagree [02:13] and scholars are pretty sure they know [02:15] which one is more likely to be accurate. [02:17] We'll talk about that. But uh but yeah, [02:19] the fact that there was a John the [02:20] Baptist and he was put to death by a [02:23] Herod uh is um multiply attested and is [02:28] widely accepted by scholars. So an [02:31] interesting [02:31] >> Yeah. So that's pretty cool. Uh so let's [02:34] let's get into the story. [02:35] >> Yeah. [02:36] >> Uh uh as it appears in Mark and Matthew [02:40] mainly. And I think an interesting place [02:42] to start on this is the fact that unlike [02:44] most of the stories that we find across [02:46] the gospels, this is the only one where [02:48] it literally goes longest to shortest. [02:52] >> Yeah, Mark's description is the longest. [02:55] Matthew's is next. Luke is just like me. [02:58] And then John the Baptist doesn't even [03:01] mention his death at all. So that's the [03:04] opposite of what normally happens where [03:05] we generally have people building on the [03:07] stories. So it seems like the role of [03:09] John the Baptist becomes less and less [03:12] significant or at least the death of [03:14] John the Baptist becomes a less and less [03:16] significant part of the communicating of [03:20] the gospel of Jesus. [03:22] >> And and to me there's a there's I like I [03:25] have a bit of a theory about why that [03:27] might be. I'm curious to hear what sort [03:29] of the scholarship says, [03:31] >> but when we talked to who did we talk to [03:33] about John McGrath? [03:34] >> James McGrath. [03:35] >> That's right. When we talked to James, [03:38] uh, it was it it became like one of the [03:41] things that he sort of went into in [03:44] depth about was that [03:47] John was probably John the Baptist was [03:49] the bigger deal in the time frame in the [03:52] time period. He [clears throat] was a [03:53] huge deal prophet of that era. Mhm. [03:58] >> And so somehow [04:00] these books need to find a way to [04:03] supplant his fame and his importance [04:06] with Jesus's fame and Jesus's [04:08] importance. And I think that I think [04:10] that maybe that might account for the [04:13] shortening of and diminishing of the [04:16] role of John the Baptist in the in the [04:19] later book uh gospels. What do you think [04:21] >> that that the idea is that it uh they [04:25] less and less want to give John a bunch [04:28] of credit and they're they're moving [04:29] further. And that's that's interesting [04:32] because when we do look at John, John [04:35] does kind of make the biggest deal out [04:37] of John the Baptist [04:41] being subordinated to Jesus. And cuz [04:44] like the the account of John uh he was [04:47] baptizing uh and then John 3:24, John of [04:51] course had not yet been thrown into [04:53] prison. And then down in verse 30, you [04:56] have John the Baptist explicitly saying, [04:58] "He must increase, but I must decrease." [05:01] And that's kind of that that kind of [05:03] portends [05:05] uh his uh marginalization in this story. [05:09] And and yeah, that it seems to me like [05:12] that could account for why as time goes [05:15] on, the gospel authors are less and less [05:17] concerned with the role of John the [05:19] Baptist uh because he was competition [05:22] initially uh to some degree. So yeah, I [05:25] think [05:25] >> interesting theory. I'm I'm sure people [05:27] have talked about that, but um I I maybe [05:30] I'll have to reach back out to James and [05:31] be like, what do you think? Because [05:32] he'll know that [laughter] [05:34] better than me. Um, [clears throat] but [05:37] why don't we start in Mark, which was [05:38] the earliest one written. [05:40] >> Uh, and and we got a whole what we got [05:43] 16 verses here. Um, on the death of John [05:46] the Baptist. [05:47] >> It's a big long thing. It starts in John [05:48] or Mark 6 and uh starts with in what [05:53] verse 14? Is that where we're starting? [05:55] >> 14. Yeah. Um and we we don't have to re [05:58] read the whole thing but uh the [06:01] broadstrokes are that Herod [06:05] uh basically [06:07] >> now this is Herod Antipus. [06:10] >> Okay. [06:10] >> So yeah, I think we need to we need to [06:12] clarify. It's easy to get the Herods [06:14] confused because there are multiple of [06:16] them. [06:17] >> Yeah. Wait till we get to his wife. [06:19] [laughter] [06:20] >> That's confusing too. [06:20] >> Who was married to multiple of them at [06:22] least according to the gospel. [06:25] Yeah, this is like and then and then the [06:29] daughter who is named in Mark, uh, which [06:32] is probably incorrectly named if I'm not [06:34] mistaken, but the Anyway, [06:38] >> yeah. Um, so we have Herod the Great, [06:40] who dies in 4 B.CE, and then he's got a [06:43] bunch of Herods as children who take [06:45] over his kingdom. And Herod has [06:47] >> Wait, he's got a bunch of Herod like he [06:48] he did the the George Foreman thing and [06:51] named [laughter] multiple kids Herod. it [06:53] that seems to be the case because if his [06:55] [laughter] [06:56] he's got um [06:59] he had five different wives and he had [07:02] Herod Philip I Herod Archelaus Herod [07:05] Antipus and another Philip II. [07:09] [laughter] [07:09] >> Oh my god. [07:09] >> And then um and then he had a grand he [07:12] had two grand two grandsons and a great [07:14] grandson. Herod of Chalcus uh or Calcus [07:17] and Herod Agria the first and then Herod [07:19] agria the second. So yeah, it's it's a [07:22] it's a paniply of uh of Herodian um [07:26] hubris. [07:27] >> And if dear viewer/lister, you have had [07:31] trouble keeping track of all of this, I [07:33] think that that is forgivable. [07:35] >> I'm just going to say it. [07:37] >> So Herod Antipus is uh rules from 4 B.CE [07:40] when his father dies to 39 CE, but he [07:44] rules a tetrarchy. So um Herod Archelaus [07:48] took over Judea and the rest of the [07:50] kingdom was was split up and Herod [07:52] Antipus got a tetrarchy. So he was in [07:56] charge of Galilee and Perea and [07:58] somewhere else. And then one of his uh [08:00] his brother Philip II was in he was [08:04] known as Philip the tetrarch. He ruled [08:07] in like the the eastern just east of the [08:10] Galilee like the east northeastern shore [08:12] of the Sea of Galilee and east and north [08:14] like that was uh Philip II or Philip the [08:17] tetrarchs uh area and then there was a [08:20] Herod Philip the first who was different [08:22] altogether we're just going to ignore [08:23] him but uh so yeah it's Herod Antipus [08:27] who's the one who's um who's causing [08:29] issues here [08:30] >> right [08:31] >> and uh yeah there there's a who's this [08:34] John the Baptist oh He's is it Elijah? [08:37] Is it a prophet like one of the prophets [08:39] of old? Uh and then in Mark 6:16, he [08:42] says, "But when Herod heard of it, he [08:44] said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been [08:45] raised." So Jesus is the is the uh [08:48] resurrected uh John the Baptist. And [08:51] then the rest of the story explains what [08:54] happened with the beheaded. [08:55] >> What happened when he Yeah. When he [08:57] betray when he beheaded John. Uh so the [09:00] story is that Herod [09:04] arrested [clears throat] John and put [09:05] him in prison [09:07] >> uh because John had uh had basically [09:12] at the very least he had he had [09:15] complained about Herod's marriage to his [09:18] brother's wife. [09:21] Yes. So this is and and this is Herod [09:24] Philip I evidently married Herodiius [09:28] um who would later marry Herod Antipus [09:32] but right now he's married to Herod [09:34] Phillip uh I [09:37] John says that's a no no and Herod [09:41] Antipus gets mad and throws him in [09:42] prison. [09:43] >> Right. So, so yeah. Wait, had Philillip [09:47] not died? [09:50] Did Herod just yink her? Like it it [09:53] seems I had assumed that Philillip [09:56] Herod's brother had died and and [10:00] Herodiius was just sort of chilling and [10:02] then Herod just snapped her up. Um, he [10:07] may have. Well, and and here's where I [10:10] get annoyed. Um, Herod Phillip the first [10:13] and Herod Phillip II frequently they're [10:16] they're very easy to uh to confuse. [10:19] >> Um, yeah, wouldn't they? [10:22] >> I think he continued living on, but [10:24] yeah, he may have just yonked her. I I [10:26] would have to look into that [10:27] >> uh to because I I frankly I get sick of [10:31] the um [laughter] uh the Herodian [10:34] dynasty's uh incest. So, [10:37] >> okay. So anyway, for the purposes of [10:39] this, Herod married Herodiius. John [10:43] said, "That is bad. You're bad for doing [10:47] that." Y [10:47] >> and so he had him arrested. And it turns [10:50] out that Herodiius the wife really held [10:53] a grudge against this guy. [10:54] >> Yes. Now, uh, Herod and in Mark, it says [10:59] in verse 20, "For Herod feared John, [11:03] knowing that he was a righteous and holy [11:06] man, and he protected him." So, in this [11:10] one, Herod is protecting John. He's just [11:13] got him locked up. [11:14] >> Yeah. [11:14] >> Uh, and then there's a whole thing where [11:19] so Herod and her and let me tell you [11:22] something. It took me a minute to parse [11:25] out what the hell was happening because [11:27] in [laughter] verse 22 at very least in [11:29] the NRSV it says when his daughter [11:32] Herodiius came in and dance and I was [11:35] like his daughter Herodiius what the [11:37] heck? Herodiius is his wife who is his [11:41] brother's wife but now it's his wife and [11:44] who is Herodiius who's so I then I [11:47] thought [11:49] because I also know this story from [11:51] other parts of like culture. [11:55] >> Uhhuh. [11:56] >> The the name of the daughter in like [11:58] opera is Salame. [12:01] >> So who the heck is daughter Herodiius? [12:04] Well, and we do have some uh there are [12:07] some manuscript variants where it does [12:10] not say Herodiius uh came in and danced. [12:14] It says the daughter of Herodiius, which [12:17] would be Salame, which would be how the [12:20] story comes down to to a lot of folks, [12:23] >> which I am I'm utterly mystified why [12:26] NRSVE didn't choose to put daughter of [12:30] Herodiius, but [12:31] >> I I I think there's probably a stronger [12:34] text critical case for Herodiius. [12:36] >> Uh even even if Yeah, that that um kind [12:39] of messes up the [laughter] [12:42] >> Yeah. All right. the uh the timeline. [12:44] >> All right. [clears throat] So anyway, [12:46] whoever she is, this daughter, whatever [12:49] her name happens to be, came in and [12:51] danced and she pleased Herod and his [12:53] guests. And the king said to the girl, [12:56] and by the way, this is a bad thing to [12:58] say. It doesn't m like it feels like [13:00] you're going to be cool when you say [13:01] something like this to someone who [13:03] pleases you. Never say this. Uh he says [13:06] to her, "Ask me for whatever you wish [13:09] and I will give it." And he swore to [13:12] her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give [13:15] you even half of my kingdom." [13:18] >> Yes. [laughter] [13:19] >> And she ran to her mom. They had a quick [13:23] confab. They were like, "What should we [13:25] do? What should we do? What should we [13:26] do?" And mom's like, "Oh, I know what I [13:28] want. I want you to ask for the head of [13:32] John the Baptist." Literally on a [13:35] platter. [13:35] >> Yes. And and there's another person who [13:38] who says, "Ask me whatever you want and [13:40] I'll give it to you up to and including [13:41] half of my kingdom." [13:42] >> Oh, [13:43] >> that is Esther. And King Aoseras [13:47] uh tells her that after she pleases him. [13:51] So, we've got a lot of kind of stock [13:53] literary motifs going on. In fact, in [13:57] fact, [13:58] >> um the the idea that John the Baptist [14:03] would condemn the king and then the [14:07] king's wife would come after John the [14:09] Baptist. That's also reflected in the [14:11] Hebrew Bible. [14:12] >> Oh, [14:13] >> this is Yes. This is just like the story [14:16] that we see uh in the Hebrew Bible of [14:19] Elijah condemning Ahab for taking over [14:23] Nabboth's vineyard. And then who comes [14:25] after Elijah but Jezebel, [14:28] >> Ahab's wife, right? [snorts] [14:30] >> And so the the old uh you know the wife [14:34] of the king is is coming after the [14:36] people who are criticizing the king. uh [14:38] that old cannard is uh is bubbling to [14:41] the surface in in this story as well as [14:44] >> uh the Esther, you know, I'll give you [14:47] up to half my kingdom, which which [14:49] really like the interextuality here [14:51] makes it clear this is more of a [14:53] literary creation than it is a [14:56] reflection of strict history. The the [14:58] author is is very clearly taking [15:01] liberties. Um yeah, [15:03] >> so but uh but yeah, we have uh so this [15:06] would be Salame. She goes to her mom. [15:08] What should I ask for it? And uh John [15:10] the Baptist's uh noggin. And the king [15:13] who has to do it because he told her and [15:17] he swore and he Yeah. Yeah. [15:20] >> Um gives her uh the head of John the [15:22] Baptist. [15:22] >> Yeah. He sends for a soldier. Soldier uh [15:26] they come in with uh with a head. [15:28] >> Yeah. So [15:29] >> pretty gruesome. But and another [15:31] interesting thing uh when we look [15:33] throughout the Bible there are only a [15:35] few times when birthdays are celebrated [15:38] >> and it's always by the villain. [15:41] >> You never have you never have a hero a [15:43] protagonist celebrating a birthday in [15:46] the Bible which is one of the reasons [15:48] the reason really that for instance [15:51] Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate [15:53] birthdays because [15:54] >> I was going to say point Jehovah's [15:55] Witnesses. All right. I I didn't realize [15:57] that that was the reasoning. If you [15:58] interpret the fact that the Bible only [16:01] presents villains as celebrating their [16:03] birthday as an indication that you [16:05] shouldn't be celebrating birthdays, then [16:06] then yeah, point Jehovah's Witnesses. [16:08] But [16:08] >> [laughter] [16:08] >> uh but another interesting point um so [16:13] yeah, head on a platter, gave it to the [16:15] girl, who knows what she did with it. Uh [16:18] dear diary, um maybe [16:20] >> Well, it says the girl gave it to her [16:21] mom [16:21] >> or girl gave it to her mom. Yeah. But uh [16:23] and then the mom, who knows, [16:25] >> smacked it around a little bit. I don't [16:27] know. um [16:28] >> soccer. I don't Yeah, [16:30] >> had it flattened, put it in in the pages [16:32] of something with some old dried leaves. [16:34] I don't maybe [laughter] [16:36] >> hung it upside down to dry it out like [16:38] you do with the flowers that you get. Um [16:40] >> yeah, [16:40] >> but yeah, that is Mark's account, which [16:43] is the lengthiest account of the death [16:45] of John the Baptist. But I think it it's [16:47] interesting to note that Herod [16:49] >> thinks that Jesus might be John the [16:52] Baptist come back. [16:53] >> Yeah. to uh to you know get him [16:56] [clears throat] in a way and Freddy kind [16:59] of sense. [17:00] >> Yet another way in which they're like [17:02] trying to supplant John the Baptist with [17:06] Jesus. They're just like [17:08] >> uh Yeah, it it's a it's a very [17:11] interesting sort of move that they're [17:12] pulling there. [17:13] >> Yeah. [17:14] >> Um let's get ourselves to Matthew 14. [17:17] >> Yeah. Matthew 14. We got verses 1-2. So [17:20] slightly shorter. Um, and it it is a [17:23] little more succinct. At that time, [17:25] Herod the ruler heard reports about [17:26] Jesus, and he said to his servants, [17:28] "This is John the Baptist. He's been [17:30] raised from the dead. And for this [17:31] reason, these powers are at work in him. [17:34] For Herod had arrested John, bound him, [17:36] and put him in prison on account of [17:37] Herodiius, his brother Philip's wife, [17:40] because John had been telling him, "It [17:41] is not lawful for you to have her." And [17:44] then Herod wanted to put him to death, [17:47] but he feared the crowd because they [17:49] regarded him as a prophet. So, it's not [17:52] this guy's a nuisance, but it's so much [17:54] fun the way he does the little magic [17:56] tricks and and um you know, I love to to [17:58] watch him dance kind of thing. It's now [18:01] >> he wanted to kill him, but he feared the [18:03] the uh implications of that. He feared [18:06] what the crowd would do if he killed [18:09] >> Yeah. [18:09] >> Put a pin in that for Josephus. [18:12] >> Yeah. Put a pin in that indeed. And then [18:14] we have the same thing. the do and here [18:16] it says when Herod's birthday came the [18:18] daughter of Herodiius [18:20] >> danced before the company and she [18:21] pleased Herod [18:24] >> um doo uh prompted by her mother and he [18:28] promised an oath to grant her whatever [18:29] she might ask he's not going to be as [18:31] explicit about it as [snorts] the author [18:33] of the Gospel of Mark was give me the [18:35] head of John the Baptist here on a [18:37] platter he was grieved [18:40] I not because he was sad to kill John [18:42] but because oh no this might make The [18:45] crowds angry. Yet out of regard for his [18:48] oaths and for the guests, he commanded [18:50] it to be given. He was beheaded. Head [18:53] was brought on a platter, gave it to the [18:54] girl who brought it to her mother. [18:56] >> And here we have the added detail. I'm [18:58] pretty sure this is an added detail. No, [19:00] it's not an added detail. It's in Mark. [19:02] Uh his disciples came and took the body [19:03] and buried him [19:05] >> and they went and told Jesus. Now, [19:07] you'll recall the very next verse is the [19:09] feeding of the 5000 story, right? where [19:12] [laughter] they tell in in Mark, they [19:15] don't go and tell Jesus. They actually [19:17] come back from their mission and talk [19:19] about all the cool things that they were [19:20] able to do. [19:21] >> So, we there's a little bit of narrative [19:24] in congruity there. We got some plot [19:25] holes in Mark. Matthew fixes it up a [19:28] little bit because they go and tell [19:29] Jesus and Jesus is like, "Leave me." [19:32] >> Yeah. [19:32] >> I have I have to be alone. Um let me [19:35] grieve. [19:36] >> Um my boy, look what they did to my boy. [19:39] my boy. [19:41] >> And then in in Luke, it's it's just in [19:44] passing, Herod hears about everything [19:47] that's going on. And he was, this is [19:49] Luke 9 7 8 and N. He was perplexed [19:52] because it was said by some that John [19:53] had been raised from the dead. So now [19:55] it's not even Herod doing it. It's [19:56] others saying, "Oh, this is John the [19:58] Baptist come back to life. By some that [20:00] Elijah had appeared and by others that [20:02] one of the ancient prophets had arisen." [20:04] So we're still based on on the previous [20:06] gospels that are saying Herod came up [20:09] with these three options. Now it's [20:10] others who are saying it. And uh in [20:12] verse 9, Herod said, "John I beheaded, [20:15] but who is this about whom I hear such [20:17] things?" And he tried to see him. So in [20:19] Luke, Herod is not um superstitious [20:23] about this. [20:24] >> Right? [20:24] >> Luke has Herod just being like, "Well, [20:26] >> can't be that dude because he's a little [20:29] too tall for that dude. [20:32] >> [laughter] [20:32] >> I uh I shortened him by by uh several [20:35] >> inches. One too many heads. [20:37] >> Yes. John. [laughter] [20:39] >> So So who is this guy? So and that's it. [20:42] >> Yeah, [20:43] >> that is uh we Luke does not feel it is [20:45] necessary to narrate the reasons for [20:48] John's uh beheading or excuse me Herod's [20:51] beheading of John and just moves on. So [20:54] yeah, we it does seem like they're like [20:56] we don't want to belabor this guy. We [20:58] don't want to give him too much [20:59] attention. We're just gonna um kind of [21:02] [laughter] squeak him out of the out of [21:04] the narrative there. And then yeah, when [21:06] when you get to John, it just says John, [21:09] of course, had not yet been thrown into [21:10] prison. A little parenthetical remark at [21:12] John 3:24. And then um John says, "I'm [21:15] not the Messiah. I've been sent ahead of [21:17] him. He who has the bride is the [21:19] bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom [21:20] who stands and hears him rejoices [21:22] greatly at the bridegroom's voice. For [21:23] this reason, my joy has been fulfilled. [21:25] He must increase, but I must decrease." [21:28] exit stage left. [21:30] >> Yeah. [21:31] >> And and that's it. And so we're not [21:34] focusing on on that uh tragic story of [21:38] John the Baptist in the Gospel of John. [21:41] >> Yeah. It's such an interest it's funny [21:43] because uh the two gospels that do [21:47] decide to tell this grand story and it [21:50] is one of the better stories in the New [21:53] Testament. It's it's it's you know it's [21:55] got intrigue. [21:56] >> Yeah. The details are are richer in this [21:58] story than than what we mostly find. [22:01] >> Yeah. And yeah, you get to think about [22:03] dancing. There's a lot to picture there. [22:06] And then there's this head that shows up [22:07] on a plate. So I it feels uh it it feels [22:12] rich. And no wonder, you know, pop pop [22:15] culture just culture in general has [22:17] glombmed onto this for centuries. And [22:19] you know, you go to the Louvre or you go [22:21] to any art museum and you're going to [22:23] see a representation of John the [22:26] Baptist's head on a platter and you're g [22:29] you know, and that there are whole [22:32] things about Solom. Now, we should quite [22:34] quickly just get to why we call her [22:36] Solom now, [22:38] >> which is that which is uh Josephus, [22:41] right? Like isn't is he the the only [22:44] place that we have we get that name? Um [22:46] well we have she's I think she's Salame [22:49] III uh because there are there are [22:53] earlier Salames but I I think it and it [22:55] comes from um Schlomit is the Hebrew. [22:59] >> Okay. [23:00] >> Which which is a feminine version. [23:01] Schlommo would be Solomon. Schlomit [23:04] would be a feminine version uh based on [23:07] probably uh the word for peace. Uh but [23:10] yeah, I think uh the the daughter of [23:14] Herod II, Prince Princess Herodius, [23:16] however you want to refer to her, I [23:18] think she was not the the first Salame [23:22] ever. [23:23] >> Okay. [23:23] >> But she's she's within the um the [23:26] Herodian line. So she's royalty. Um, in [23:29] fact, I should probably some [23:32] Yeah, I should probably look in [23:34] [laughter] a little more and see uh if [23:36] there are earlier Salames, [23:39] but um there were three in the Herodian [23:41] dynasty. There were three women named [23:42] Salame. Salame the first was Herod the [23:45] Great's sister and the mother of Baneik. [23:51] So, governor uh by her husband [23:55] Costaris, governor of Idumia. We've [23:57] heard of Costa Baris before. We've heard [23:59] of We've talked about it on the show. [24:01] >> Have we? [24:02] >> I remember now. [24:03] >> I don't know who that is. [24:05] >> Yes. Oh gosh. It was in [24:08] It was in [laughter] [24:10] the Mary movie that we watched [24:13] >> for for god-awful movies. [24:16] >> Costabaris was one of the people that uh [24:19] that Herod was manipulating, remember? [24:22] >> And I think Salame was his wife. Okay. [24:25] No, Bern. Bern was her was his wife. [24:27] [laughter] [24:29] >> Okay. [24:30] >> Okay. [24:31] >> Salame was his sister. We are well off [24:33] track. Yeah, we have derailed. [24:36] >> We are deep in the weeds here. Let's [24:38] let's just get to Josephus real quick. [24:40] >> Yeah. Josephus uh mentions John the [24:42] Baptist once and this is in the [24:44] antiquities of the Jews. And if you if [24:46] you don't know much about Josephus, [24:48] Josephus actually fought in the Jewish [24:51] war uh against Rome. uh was a a general [24:56] uh up in the Galilee was captured and [24:59] then basically became kind of court [25:02] historian for a couple of uh Roman [25:04] emperors writing in the '90s CE and [25:07] Antiquities of the Jews is basically him [25:09] saying here's what happened to us. He's [25:11] basically just doing a history of the [25:13] Jewish people retelling a lot of stories [25:15] starting from the Hebrew Bible going [25:17] through Greor Roman period Judaism and [25:19] then getting to now. Okay, now we get to [25:22] uh how Herod is defeated in a battle. [25:26] And uh this is chapter, no it's book 18, [25:28] chapter five, [25:30] >> section two of uh Josephus's [25:33] antiquities. And this is an old [25:35] translation. I I tried to see if I could [25:37] Schwarz just published a translation, a [25:40] new updated translation and commentary [25:42] on this part of antiquities. I've [25:44] ordered the hard copy. I I couldn't get [25:46] it in time for this, but uh here's what [25:48] we have from an older translation. Now, [25:50] some of the Jews thought that the [25:51] destruction of Herod's army came from [25:53] God, and that very justly as a [25:55] punishment of what he did against John, [25:58] that was called the Baptist. For Herod [26:00] slew him, who was a good man, and [26:02] commanded the Jews to exercise virtue [26:04] both as to righteousness towards one [26:06] another and piety towards God, and so to [26:08] come to baptism, for that the washing [26:10] with water would be acceptable to him if [26:12] they made use of it not in order to the [26:14] putting away or the remission of some [26:15] sins only, but for the purification of [26:18] the body. So, so that kind of addresses [26:21] the overlap of the earlier notion of the [26:24] mikvah as as purifying the body and then [26:27] the newer notion of baptism as [26:30] forgiveness of sins, which we talked [26:32] about with James. Um, [clears throat] [26:34] supposing still that the soul was [26:36] thoroughly purified beforehand by [26:37] righteousness. Now when many others came [26:39] in crowds about him, for they were very [26:42] greatly moved or pleased by hearing his [26:44] words, Herod, who feared less the great [26:47] influence John had over the people might [26:49] put it into his power and inclination to [26:51] raise a rebellion. For they seemed ready [26:54] to do anything he should advise, thought [26:56] it best by putting him to death to [26:57] prevent any mischief he might cause, and [26:59] not bring himself into difficulties by [27:02] sparing a man who might make him repent [27:03] of it when it would be too late. [27:05] Accordingly, he was sent a prisoner out [27:08] of Herod's suspicious temper to McCaris, [27:10] the castle I before mentioned, and there [27:13] and was there put to death. Now, the [27:15] Jews had an opinion that the destruction [27:16] of his army was sent as a punishment [27:18] upon Herod and a mark of God's [27:20] displeasure to him. [27:22] >> Mcceris is this hilltop fortress that is [27:26] uh on the east side of the uh Dead Sea [27:29] uh right about the middle of uh of the [27:31] Dead Sea um north and south. So, so [27:34] yeah, there it's just [27:35] >> no banquet, [27:37] >> no Herodiius, no Solom, [27:40] >> none of that. And and also like Herod is [27:43] not reluctant. Herod is not worried. [27:46] Herod or rather what he's worried about. [27:48] And now he's, you know, back in uh [27:51] Matthew, he was worried about the crowd, [27:53] but he was worried about the crowd being [27:56] mad if he killed him. [27:57] >> Yeah. [27:57] >> Now he's worried about John's. So, [28:01] Josephus says he was worried about [28:03] John's influence over the crowd and [28:06] worried that he could inspire the crowd [28:09] to come and rebel against him. So, he [28:12] just thinks it's just it's handy and [28:14] useful [28:16] >> uh to just have him killed and just end [28:18] that [snorts] [28:19] little bit of nuisance. [28:21] >> And and it is interesting that the the [28:23] observation is identical. Oh, these [28:26] people really love this guy. the [28:28] conclusion [28:29] >> is right [28:30] >> entirely different. Luke wants you to [28:32] think that he was like, "Well, I can't [28:34] kill him." And then Josephus is like, [28:37] "Well, I better kill him." So, [28:39] >> [laughter] [28:39] >> um, [28:40] >> we have very different motivations going [28:42] on here. But, but Matthew, not Luke, [28:45] Matthew is is the one who says, uh, he [28:47] feared the crowd and what they might do. [28:49] [snorts] And that's and that's something [28:51] that in and Pilate is the same. Pontious [28:54] Pilate is is the same. and they have [28:57] [panting] [28:57] he fears the crowd. Um which is why he [29:00] he ends up uh acquiescing to crucify the [29:05] guy in whom he found no guilt even [29:08] though what we know from Josephus is [29:10] that Pilate would have relished the [29:12] opportunity to to piss off the crowd. [29:14] So, [laughter] um, yeah, the the gospel [29:18] authors, [29:20] the the, uh, the personalities, [29:24] the the ideas that they're putting into [29:27] the heads of the characters, the [29:29] villains don't really fit with what we [29:31] know historically about these very real [29:33] historical figures. So, [29:36] >> well, there you have it. Yeah. [29:38] >> Uh that that's uh the the death of John [29:41] the Baptist or the or the several deaths [29:43] of John the Baptist [laughter] and you [29:45] get to decide which one you like the [29:47] best. [29:48] >> Mhm. [29:49] >> Let's the the many different uh weirdos [29:52] of the Herodian dynasty. [29:55] >> Yeah. [29:56] >> Good luck keeping that all straight. [29:59] [laughter] [29:59] >> Uh [30:00] >> don't name your kids the same things. [30:02] >> Yeah. Well, if you would like to become [30:04] a part of how this all gets going, uh, [30:08] you can become one of our patrons over [30:10] on patreon.com/data [30:12] overdogma. We always deeply appreciate [30:15] all of our patrons and you'll get bonus [30:17] content every week. Uh, thanks so much [30:20] for tuning in. Like, subscribe, do all [30:23] of the things, and we'll talk to you [30:25] again next week. Bye, everybody.  ## Highlights - **Gospels Shrink John's Role Over Time** - The synoptic gospels vary in length on John the Baptist's death, with Mark longest and John omitting it entirely. - This shrinking emphasis suggests later authors downplayed John's importance relative to Jesus. Transcript: Dan Beecher Okay, and so for our chapter and verse, it's chapters and verses, and we've got both, it's the synoptic gospels, really. Dan McClellan Really, yeah. We actually, the gospel of John just doesn't want to talk about John the Baptist's death at all. But it is the synoptics. It's Matthew, Mark, and Luke. However, Luke also is pretty reticent about this. Luke is sparse. Yes, just mentions it in passing. So it's really just Matthew and Mark that go into any detail about this. And then there's Josephus. So we also have a separate account of John the Baptist being put to death. Dan Beecher So that's a fascinating, I look forward to getting to the Josephus part of this conversation because it attests very strongly to this being an actual event that occurred. Yes. As opposed, like, so much of what we read isn't attested in extra-biblical manuscripts or whatever. Right. And this one is very much so, very much attested. Dan McClellan Now that the motivations for it disagree and scholars are pretty sure they know which one is more likely to be accurate. OK. Talk about that. But but yeah, the fact that there was a John the Baptist and he was put to death by a Herod is multiply attested and is widely accepted by scholars. An interesting yeah so that's pretty cool uh so let's let's get into the story yeah uh as it appears in mark and matthew mainly and i think an interesting place to start on this is the fact That unlike most of the stories that we find across the gospels this is the only one where it literally goes longest to shortest. Mark's description is the longest. Matthew's is next. Luke is just like, meh. ([Time 0:05:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3155f7b6-172c-4f8a-9d5f-9503ef633177)) - **John As Early Rival To Jesus** - John the Baptist was a major prophetic figure and potential rival in his era, which complicates the gospels' portrayals. - Dan Beecher and Dan McClellan suggest gospel authors may have minimized John to elevate Jesus. Transcript: Dan Beecher He was a huge deal prophet of that era. And so somehow these books need to find a way to supplant his fame and his importance with Jesus's fame and Jesus's importance. And I think that maybe that might account for the shortening of and diminishing of the role of John the Baptist in the later book, Gospels. What do you think? Dan McClellan That the idea is that they less and less want to give John a bunch of credit and they're moving further. That's interesting because when we do look at John, John does kind of make the biggest deal out of John the Baptist being subordinated to Jesus. Because the account of John, he was baptizing. And then John 3, 24. John, of course, had not yet been thrown into prison. And then down in verse 30, you have John the Baptist explicitly saying, he must increase, but I must decrease. And that kind of portends his marginalization in this story. And yeah, it seems to me like that could account for why as time goes on, the gospel authors are less and less concerned with the role of John the Baptist because he was competition initially To some degree. ([Time 0:08:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9ec15ea9-c3b3-4ad4-a888-1e6feb51d405)) - **Mark's Detailed Account Of John's Imprisonment** - Mark gives the fullest narrative: John criticizes Herod's marriage and is imprisoned by Herod Antipas. - Mark's detail-driven account frames Herod as fearful and morally compromised. Transcript: Dan McClellan And we got a whole, well, we got 16 verses here on the death of John the Baptist. Dan Beecher It's a big, long thing. It starts in Mark 6 and starts in what, verse 14? Is that where we're starting? Yeah. And we don't have to read the whole thing, but the broad strokes are that Herod basically... Now, this is Herod Antipas. Okay. Dan McClellan Yeah, I think we need to clarify. It's easy to get the Herods confused because there are multiple of them. Yeah, wait until we get to his wife. That's confusing, too. Who was married to multiple of them, at least according to the gospel. Dan Beecher And then the daughter who is named in Mark, which is probably incorrectly named, if I'm not mistaken. But anyway. Dan McClellan Yeah, so we have Herod the Great who dies in 4 BCE, and then he's got a bunch of Herods as children who take over his kingdom. Wait, he's got a bunch of Herods? Dan Beecher Like he did the George Foreman thing and named multiple kids Herod? Dan McClellan That seems to be the case because if his, he's got, he had five different wives and he had Herod Philip I, Herod Archelaus, Herod Antipas, and another Philip II. Oh my God. And then he had two grandsons and a great-grandson, Herod of Chalcas, or Calcas, and Herod Agrippa I, and then Herod Agrippa II. So yeah, it's a panoply of Herodian hubris. Dan Beecher And if, dear viewer slash listener, you have had trouble keeping track of all of this, I think that that is forgivable. I'm just going to say it. Dan McClellan So Herod Antipas rules from 4 BCE, when his father dies, to 39 CE. But he rules a tetrarchy. So Herod Archelaus took over Judea, and the rest of the kingdom was split up. And Herod Antipas got a Tetrarchy, so he was in charge of Galilee and Perea and somewhere else. And then one of his brother, Philip II, he was known as Philip the Tetrarch. He ruled in the eastern, just east of the Galilee, like the northeastern shore of the Sea of Galilee and east and north. Like that was Philip II or Philip the Tetrarch's area. And then there was a Herod Philip I who was different altogether. We're just going to ignore him. But so yeah, it's Herod Antipas who's the one who's causing issues here. ([Time 0:09:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5bd34385-703b-4502-a9d7-38a98d406049)) - **Hungry Before Recording** - Dan Beecher recounts realizing he hadn't eaten before recording and getting a Factor meal delivered. - He praises the convenience and quality of the ready-made meal he ate before the show. Transcript: Dan Beecher Hey, Dan, you want to hear a story? Tell me. Today, as we sat down to record, or as I was sitting down prepping to record, I realized that I had not eaten anything today. And that was a problem because we were about to dive into hours of recording, and I'm not good on an empty stomach. And I ran to my pantry, was like,, Oh no, what am I going to eat? Uh, we'll do PB and J. And then I was like, Oh no, we're out of bread. And it was just a whole thing. And then my partner turned to me and said, um, we just got a shipment of factor. Just have a factor. I was like, wait, not only do I get fed, but I don't have to do like a, some crummy sandwiches. I get an actual great meal. So yeah, dove into the fridge, grabbed myself a chicken with, it was like a chicken queso with peppers. Just delicious. So good. So quick. Didn't have to waste any of your time and tell you, oh, I'm sorry, you're going to have to wait while I cook something for myself. It was fantastic. Dan McClellan I had Factor for lunch as well. And we're not even making this up. We both got Factor boxes on our doorstep just before we sat down to record. And I had a smoked Gouda chicken, which I made sure to include on the order because the last time I had that, it was phenomenal. ([Time 0:20:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2a523e35-1b01-473f-805b-f4cfef7052cb)) - **Josephus Gives Political Motive** - Josephus records John the Baptist's execution at Machaerus and links it to political fear of revolt. - Josephus omits the banquet/Salome motif, giving a different motive: preventing rebellion. Transcript: Dan McClellan Yeah, Josephus mentions John the Baptist once, and this is in the Antiquities of the Jews. And if you don't know much about Josephus, Josephus actually fought in the Jewish war against Rome, was a general up in the Galilee, was captured, and then basically became kind of court Historian for a couple of Roman emperors writing in the 90s CE. And Antiquities of the Jews is basically him saying, here's what happened to us. He's basically doing a history of the Jewish people, retelling a lot of stories starting from the Hebrew Bible, going through Greco-Roman period Judaism, and then getting to now. Okay. Now we get to how Herod is defeated in a battle. And this is chapter, no, it's book 18, chapter 5, section 2 of Josephus' Antiquities. And this is an old translation. I tried to see if I could. Schwartz just published a translation, a new updated translation and commentary on this part of Antiquities. I've ordered the hard copy. I couldn't get it in time for this. But here's what we have from an older translation. Now, some of the Jews thought that the of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John. That was called the Baptist. For Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism. For that, So that kind of addresses the overlap of the earlier notion of the mikvah as purifying the body, and then the newer notion of baptism as forgiveness of sins, which we talked About with James. Supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when many others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved or pleased by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might Put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise, thought it best by putting him to death to prevent any mischief he might Cause and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly, he was sent a prisoner out of Herod's suspicious temper to Machaerus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod and a mark of God's displeasure to him. Machaerus is this hilltop fortress that is on the east side of the Dead Sea, right about the middle of the Dead Sea, north and south. ([Time 0:33:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c87254f6-40a0-4681-a00e-eba58696aef6)) - **Different Authors, Different Motives** - Gospel authors shape villain motives differently: Matthew/Luke portray Herod as fearing the crowd, while Josephus portrays political calculation. - These differences reflect authorial agendas, not uniform historical detail. Transcript: Dan McClellan And it is interesting that the observation is identical. Oh, these people really love this guy. The conclusion is entirely different. Luke wants you to think that he was like, well, I can't kill him. And then Josephus is like, well, I better kill him. So we have very different motivations going on here. But Matthew, not Luke, Matthew is the one who says he feared the crowd and what they might do. And that's something that – and Pilate is same. Pontius Pilate is the same. They have, he fears the crowd, which is why he ends up acquiescing to crucify the guy in whom he found no guilt, even though what we know from Josephus is that Pilate would have relished The opportunity to piss off the crowd. So yeah, the gospel authors, the personalities, the ideas that they're putting into the heads of the characters, the villains, don't really fit with what we know historically about These very real historical figures. ([Time 0:37:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2162290a-b688-4480-826a-72eac5d97958)) - **Pastor Appears Only Once In NT** - The Greek word translated 'pastor' (poimen) appears only once in Ephesians 4:11. - The New Testament rarely uses the institutional term many churches treat as an established office. Transcript: Dan McClellan To be perfectly honest. Yeah. And that's really what is inspiring this. We see a lot of arguments about who is and is not allowed to be a pastor and what the Bible says about the requirements for being a pastor. And the problem is the word pastor only occurs one time in the entire New Testament. Dan Beecher And what is the word? I know it's not pastor because that's our word. What's the Greek that they're using? Dan McClellan So the Greek word is, you have the plural in Ephesians 4, 11 and, uh, Pimen, uh, is the, is the singular word. Uh, but Pimenas is the, um, is the masculine accusative, uh, plural that we see in Ephesians. And, and this comes from a word that has reference to sheep. So, so the idea is to, is to pastor. In fact, when you have in John 21, and we'll talk a little bit more about what's going on here, but when Jesus tells Peter, you know, the threefold, if you love me, feed my sheep, the verb There doesn't say feed. It actually says pasture or pastor my sheep. So it's related, and we'll get to that. But you have a lot of people who are arguing that you have to be a man to be a pastor. You have to be a husband of only one wife. You have all these qualifications for pastor. And the big problem is that that isn't in Ephesians 4. And that's somewhere else where they're actually talking about an overseer, a word in Greek that is frequently translated bishop. That's what they're talking about in those other passages. And in Ephesians 4.11, we just said, he himself granted that some are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building Up the body of Christ. That's the only reference to pastors anywhere in the New Testament. ([Time 0:39:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/431b9e12-9ce2-47e1-83f5-610793e05db3)) - **Shepherding ≠ Identical Office** - Acts 20:28 calls overseers to 'shepherd' the flock, but that doesn't equate overseer with the single title 'pastor.' - The hosts argue this conflation presumes unity across diverse New Testament writings. Transcript: Dan McClellan How is that precisely, that an overseer can be identified as a pastor? And I saw someone post on Twitter this big, long thread about how an elder, an overseer, and a pastor are all the exact same specific office within the institutional Christian church. And so everything that is said about overseers, everything that is said about elders is also said about pastors. And the passage that is adduced to prove this is Acts chapter 20, verse 28. And here's what that says. And I'm reading from the NRSVUE, as is Our Won't. Yeah. Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own son. And so the idea is overseers, therefore, are pastors. Because Acts 20 says an overseer is shepherding, is pastoring. And therefore, well, they must be the same thing. Okay. So basically, if the role is to pastor, then whoever has that role, they're a pastor. And here in Acts 20, verse 28, it's the overseer who is described as pastoring or shepherding the church of God. Now, here's my problem with this. ([Time 0:41:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/37e6336e-ecfc-4011-861d-6a4841acf0d9)) - **Pastoral Roles Reflect Later Bureaucracy** - Ephesians and the Pastoral Epistles likely reflect later, more bureaucratic church structures (late 1st–2nd century). - Earlier texts don't present a unified institutional org chart; later writings formalize roles. Transcript: Dan McClellan Point. Well, and this is why you only see references to a lot of these offices in the text that might have been written either at the end of the first century CE or the beginning of the second century CE. Because Ephesians was not written by Paul. Ephesians was probably written again, end of the first century, beginning of the second century, when the church had had several decades to get bureaucratic. So that's why when you have the, you know, if you desire the office of an overseer, that's great. Here are all the qualifications. That's in the pastoral epistles, which I think is early 2nd century CE. So yeah, this is a later time period when we've developed from, oh, he's pastoring, he's pastoring. What if we just called a specific office in our organization, the pastor? Oh, great. There we go. And now we've got a new title, a new conceptual suite or package or constellation that did not exist in the before times. ([Time 0:50:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/35f215cf-e7d6-4e61-87a1-0e73badbed33)) - **Shepherding Language Is Broadly Applied** - Many New Testament figures are described as 'shepherding' (Jesus, apostles, even servants), so the verb isn't a strict job title. - Using pastoral language across contexts weakens claims that 'pastor' was a fixed office. Transcript: Dan McClellan A bunch of different figures in the New Testament and ostensible offices within the church are also said to shepherd or pastor. And it starts with, we can go all the way back to Matthew when they're quoting when Matthew 2, 6 is quoting Hebrew Bible passages about who Jesus is going to be. Quoting Micah 5, 2 for out of you who Bethlehem, that's who for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people. So Jesus pastors, Jesus shepherds. Does that mean that a pastor is also Jesus? Does that mean Jesus is a pastor? Does that mean that's the office he held? Of course not. You have Luke 17, 7. We've got a bit of a parable. Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from plowing or shepherding sheep in the field. Now, this one is a little sillier, but is your enslaved person also a pastor? Because they're pastoring. That doesn't have to do with church responsibilities. But we already mentioned John 21, when Jesus says, do you love me? And Peter goes, I love you, man. And he says, if you love me, pastor my sheep. Peter was not a pastor. Peter was an apostle. So his job was to pastor. Does that mean an apostle is a pastor? ([Time 0:52:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e9b8ce4a-a35e-4ccb-8c1b-62bf0f24cefd))