Building the Business Side of Laravel With Tom Crary  🔗 **Source:** [Building the Business Side of Laravel With Tom Crary](https://share.snipd.com/episode/bc9f301c-cf1d-4332-891a-8cf4a274775f) ## Highlights - **Career Path From Auditor To Startup CEO** - Tom Crary moved from KPMG auditing into VC-backed finance and then ops, ultimately becoming CFO and later CEO of Pond5 where he led growth from $10M to $60M and sold to Shutterstock. - He recounts shifting from accounting to consulting, then CFO at an MIT solar spinout, then Pond5 CEO during COVID and through the Shutterstock acquisition, illustrating how varied finance and ops roles trained him for Laravel. Transcript: Tom Crary I'll start at my career. So I came out of college and I was an accountant. So I started out working with technology companies at age 22, working for a big four CPA firm called KPMG. And so I came up to the finance ranks first couple of years working as an accountant and doing like public company, technology company audits. I did that for like two and a half, three years, and I absolutely hated it. Were you just kind of like a cog at that point? No, actually, I mean, I shouldn't say I hated it. I hated parts of it. I really enjoyed working with the companies, working with the technology companies and working with senior leaders at a technology company, CFOs and CEOs and controllers and people Like that that were obviously 10, 15, 20 years ahead in their career. And I'm sitting across the table from them, you know, really working through their business challenges. But I also hated that there was this framing of like auditing, like it was all like controls and testing of controls and stuff like that, that I just found like monotonous and they didn't Want to be there either. So, you know, it was cool to have the exposure to great businesses and senior leaders, but the actual stuff we were talking about didn't interest me. So, so it was like a good way to start. And I did that for two and a half, three years. And I remember there was some friends that I had that I used to work with and they started talking to me about, you know, a different side of accounting and finance on the investing side. So I quickly moved about three years in into the consulting world. So I started, I became a financial consultant and was working with same technology companies, but helping them to M&A. So helping companies by other companies. And actually during this time, I started working with some investors. So some private equity firms and venture capital firms, things like that. And one of my clients actually was Excel partner. So that's actually a little bit of a skip ahead to the end story. But I was working with Excel. This is now almost 20 years ago, 17 or 18 years ago. I'm working with them as a young financial consultant and helping them invest in the early stages of their growth technology investments. So at the time, they invested in Braintree, Squarespace, Atlassian, to name just a few really great outcomes. There were some other not so good ones in there too, but I just found that work really, really entertaining and really interesting. So, you know, that got me interested in like, you know, being on the, on the investing side and the strategy side of, of running companies. Um, well, anyway, I did that for a couple of years and that was really fun work, but I really want to get on the operation side of, of the business. So I left there, I left the consulting world and took my first CFO role at a solar technology company. So like, you know, rooftop solar. And we were, it was like an MIT spin out that built a new form of like, of rooftop solar. And it was pretty much pre at this point. So we were building the company from ground up, mostly a science-based thing, like some material science and physicists and chemists and all these PhDs from MIT that were trying to Figure out really hard technology problems from that perspective. And my job was on the business side. I was the only finance person, and I was raising money from venture capitalists. I was doing big partnership deals with companies from all over the world. I was doing global site selection for manufacturing plants, stuff like that. And in the course of which I met one president and several governors of multiple states around the US. So really interesting work. Yeah, really interesting work. And maybe to tie it back to how I ended up back with Excel, I was out raising money for that company out in California. And I met up with my old friends from Excel who I worked with five, six years before. And they had no interest in investing in my company, but they started pitching me on another CFO role. And it was actually at the company I ended up at before, before Laravel, it was a company called Pond5, a digital media e-commerce company. And I was a CFO there for several years from, let's see, about 2014 to 2020. Had a great experience. It was a pretty small company when we got there, about a $10 million company. By the time we sold it in 2022, it got to about $60 million. So we grew up pretty nicely over that time. And along that course of that time, we had our struggles like all companies do. And in 2020, I became the CEO there. So from 2020 to 2023, I was the CEO of that company. And during that time, we sold it to a larger public company called Shutterstock. So that's when I exited working with Excel, became part of Shutterstock. I spent about a year and a half on the exec team at Shutterstock, running Pond5, getting involved in the Shutterstock strategy. And it had kind of run its course. I was ready to go back to smaller companies and operating stuff during the growth stage. And so I left there in 2023 and later ended up back meeting Taylor soon after that time. And that's a little bit of the story of how I ended up here. So maybe I'll pause. ([Time 0:01:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0b729120-00ec-4090-af0e-fb6862306adc)) - **Fast Offer And Immediate Start At Laravel** - Tom describes meeting Taylor in late 2023 after reconnecting with Excel, quickly vibing over a shared vision for a Laravel-hosting product and signing an offer on Christmas Eve before starting Jan 1. - He details the quick timeline: intro in October, Taylor's decision in December, signing the offer on December 24, and starting work January 1 while managing diligence with Excel. Transcript: Tom Crary And then, you know, that was like, yeah, late summer of 2023. And they're like, but to be honest, they're like, we're not sure Taylor even wants to do this deal. So, you know, just hang out, you know, we'll find a time for you to meet Taylor and just let's see what happens. You know, a few months go by and they're like, okay, Taylor's interested in talking. He wants to meet you. I think he's going to come to San Francisco, you know, next week or in a couple of weeks out. And he's like, come out and join us, meet Taylor, and like, just hang out and see if you guys like, you know, click. So this is probably like October 2023 at this point, Taylor comes out to San Francisco, you know, and he was, you know, still trying to decide whether he's going to go forward with the Investment or not. And then meeting me and a few other folks as well. I'm sure there was a number of other candidates that they were just exposing Taylor to, let him figure out what's the right partner for him to help build the business. And thankfully, we hit it off. We spent a couple hours together individually and then hung out at a basketball game and some dinners and stuff like that. So, you know, and really just had a chance to understand where he wanted to take Laravel and really understand his vision of what became Laravel Cloud, right? Because at this point, he's starting to be like, this has been my dream for a long time. If we're going to do this, this is what I want to build. Does that interest you? And I remember thinking, like, because we also used Heroku, by the way, at Pond5 too. So I was like, that sounds amazing. We used Heroku, but it had all these problems. And, you know, ultimately, he back to, like, self-hosting. That would be amazing if someone did it well and for PHP. So I was kind of, like, hooked at this point. I was like, and, of course, Vercel was starting to take off, of course, at this point, too. So you see, like, okay, this is what it could be. See the potential. Yeah, from different perspectives. Matt Stauffer I should be writing down all the questions I have for you, but hopefully I'll remember all of them. But I'm going to pause and ask a very selfish question. I'm fascinated by the idea of taking that month off and saying, all right, I'm going to reach out to all my contacts. Because I've historically not been nearly as good as I'd like to be at remembering who all the people are who I love and love staying connected to and staying connected to them ongoing. And especially if I were to move jobs, the first thing I would think is, oh, let me go through all my emails and all my whatever. So are you like, do you have like a personal CRM? Are you like one of those people who's like really on top? Do you have a spreadsheet of all your people or is it sort of like, it's vibes. I'll go look at my LinkedIn and see who's there. Yeah. Tom Crary The latter. I'll be honest. I wish I was better too. You know, we get so busy in our day-to jobs that it's hard to keep up with all of your work friends, but even your home friends and your life friends and your college friends or your youth Friends. So I'm also a victim of that. And, you know, in my advancing years, I reflect on that, too. It's like, boy, all of my friends now are work friends. This is a scary thing. So anyway, yes. But it was nice to have the time off to, like, actually do it Now I can practically reach out to people and just take the time. Hopefully, they are, of course, available at that time, too, to actually meet with you. Matt Stauffer You are potentially one of many, but clearly you hit it off with with Taylor. There's all the kind of deal brokering that has to happen at the Excel level. At some point, you learn that you're going to be the guy. What was the timeline between that and actually like day one of working at Laravel? And what was that day one like for you? Tom Crary It was pretty quick, to be honest. You know, I think Taylor finally decided to go forward with it in like, I don't know, early December, mid-December. And then, you know, at that point, I'm sort of now engaging to like, okay, let's, let's get an offer together. Let's figure out what this is going to look like. You know, we're working through exactly what he envisions for his role versus my role, that kind of stuff. And, you know, I think I signed my offer letter on Christmas Eve of that year of 2023. And I started work the following week on January 1st. So there was a very, very, very little lag at this point of starting, you know, and we actually signed the deal with Excel about a month later, early February of 2023, 2024. ([Time 0:10:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9043e21b-12bb-444c-9890-4b0e4491341b)) - **Complementary CEO And Founder Roles** - Tom and Taylor split responsibilities by strengths: Taylor focuses on open source, product vision and community while Tom runs org, commercial engine, and operational safety nets. - This complementary division lets Taylor remain the product tastemaker while Tom scales the business without undermining product or community priorities. Transcript: Tom Crary I mean, I think that, that, that's exactly right. I think you said it right. So, I mean, I think we all know Taylor starts, starts his day with open source, right? So the first couple hours every day, Taylor is working on open source. He also, you know, fully owns the product vision for the company from open source down to our commercial products. You know, I'd also say he's our chief tastemaker, as you can tell through the products, like he's making sure it meets his standards and it curates it to the level that like, you know, Suits the Laravel brand. And of course, I'd say the last big thing he's like focused on is the community itself, right? So whether it's being our primary spokesperson or really just engaging with the community at all the levels. So I'd say those are the things he spends most of his time on, but he gets involved in everything as well. And I wanted to do the same thing from the other perspective. I know I'm never going to be tailored from any of those things, right? That's not what I'm here to do. That's not what I'm capable of. But I also want to be completely in the other side of the business where I don't have that perspective. So I remember early days, I talked to him as like, you know, how are we going to like, like, I don't want to be just a back office kind of guy. I need to be in the product. I need to be in the engineering flow. So I really fully understand what we're building here and I can contribute to it. And so we've kind of had to find our gears together over the course of, of many months. It probably took us, you know, several months to like figure it out, but you know, it's been truly a delightful experience, the cut to the chase, but cause he's, he's been very open-minded From the start about having my perspective, having my, you know, coming at it from a different angle and providing input to, to everything that we're doing across the company. It's been really good. But I think, you know, what Taylor's focused on that stuff, my focus is the opposite side. So building the org, running the commercial engine of the business, you know, providing the sort of operational safety nets to allow us to go really, really fast, you know, and let Taylor Focus on what he, what he focused on, what he does best. So I'd say that that's kind of the general, you know, division of labor. ([Time 0:15:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7da483cb-0297-424a-a8c4-51af71eb1017)) - **First Business Hire Wearing Many Hats** - On joining, Tom acted as a do-everything operator: first salesperson, solutions engineer, and partnership lead while also setting up entities, payroll, and bank accounts. - He recounts hands-on involvement with AWS, Cloudflare, Neon partnerships and being the lone business representative in early product discussions with Joe, Nuno, Chris, André and Taylor. Transcript: Tom Crary Yeah, I mean, it's been a whirlwind, let's be honest, because it's like the two-year period that's elapsed since we're talking about. We've gone from what was 10 people when I got here to now 105 today. So it's been more than 10x growth during that time. And we've, of course, launched two new products, cloud and night watch that were significant efforts from, you know, obviously the technology side, but also even the commercial, Get the commercial motions going. So it's been an evolving transition for me. So like, for example, I was our first salesperson, like, and the only one I'm also, I was also our first solutions engineer, you know, I was moonlighting in positions. I had no, you know, no previous training to do, but you know, that's the best way to learn it and to get things started. And then to figure out how to scale it is by starting to do it. I was also the person who did all of our early technology partnerships from, you know, getting the AWS relationship up and going cloud flare and neon and upstache. So I was there kind of every step of the way from like a very tactical partnership point of view, you know, to help kind of guide from the other side of our initial, you know, initial build. So when it was just me on the business side, kind of working with, you know, the OGs of Joe Dixon and Nuno and Chris Vidal and Andre and Taylor, of course, you know, building cloud from the Earliest days. I was the business guy in the room saying, I'll get that going. I'll figure out the economics, you know, I'll make sure the SLAs are in place, you know, that's, that's kind of how I kind of came in early days. Of course, I do none of that stuff now, really, you know, now it's all like, like, I'm actually like a COO again. I'm like, communications and board deck preparation and running our SLT, our senior leadership team, which we have and we didn't have even six months ago. We're growing up as an organization trying to not force things too quickly, right? Where you can break stuff and break cultures because you're like forcing stuff to be operating like a big fancy company. Like you don't want that, but you also can't let, you know, can't, can't pretend like you're small and you don't need those lines of communication and things like that because then you Break the other way. So it's really trying to find the right pace of change and like, you know, be there every step of the way from that transition. ([Time 0:18:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d9c44436-0aba-4b54-9d80-13d0cf840d96)) - **Add Structure Slowly While Preserving Culture** - As you scale, add lines of communication and senior leadership without imposing too much corporate structure; balance necessary processes with preserving culture. - Tom warns against forcing big-company operations too fast and instead iteratively adds SLT, board decks, and communication frameworks as the team grows from 10 to 105. Transcript: Tom Crary I'm like, communications and board deck preparation and running our SLT, our senior leadership team, which we have and we didn't have even six months ago. We're growing up as an organization trying to not force things too quickly, right? Where you can break stuff and break cultures because you're like forcing stuff to be operating like a big fancy company. Like you don't want that, but you also can't let, you know, can't, can't pretend like you're small and you don't need those lines of communication and things like that because then you Break the other way. So it's really trying to find the right pace of change and like, you know, be there every step of the way from that transition. ([Time 0:20:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/303e2943-7270-435c-b3cf-f7271154eb00)) - **Hand To Hand Combat After Big Product Launches** - Tom operates with a weekly top-10 task list but expects urgent interruptions to dominate; Laravel spent months in 'hand-to-hand combat' after launching Cloud and Nightwatch fixing unique customer issues. - He frames this as necessary early-stage triage: personally engaging customers, resolving bugs, then converting that feedback into prioritized product roadmap items. Transcript: Matt Stauffer You know, what do you wake up and do? You talk about Taylor wakes up and does open source. What is the first thing you do every morning? Or are you like a structured Mondays are for this and Tuesdays are for that kind of guy? Tom Crary Yeah, no, I mean, truly, every day is a little different for me, if I'm being honest. I know that sounds kind of trite, but it really is. You know, I definitely have things that I'm focused on. So I have like a to-do list for the week. And usually there might be eight to 10 things on it. And I want to get them all done by the end of the week. Reality is I get two of them done and then three more emerge. Matt Stauffer You know, I was waiting for you to teach me the trick, but no, that's exactly my life too. So yeah, exactly. Tom Crary And there's constantly the reshuffling of priorities and balancing the important with the urgent, right? Which always has some things in it every single day. And I think the stage we've been in for the last 14 months since we launched Cloud and then Nightwatch a few months after that is very much what I call the hand-to combat phase. Know, we are very much like all in this individually talking to individual customers and fixing problems one after another after another until they reduce, until they go away. Yeah. And that has come down quite a bit. So we're definitely more scaled and operationally oriented. But we still kind of are very much approaching it that way and realizing that, these are unique problems that we're trying to solve and they're sometimes the first time we're we're we're Finding a new a new challenge whether it be a bug in the in the system a cloud footage heaven forbid as we've had a couple of those now um and we just have to every hand all hands are on deck So we still operate very much like a startup that way and so that ends up, I'd say corrupting my day roughly half the time, you know, something you didn't plan on comes in and just, you have To take over the urgent overwhelms the important and you've got to deal with it, but don't lose sight of that important concept, which is if I don't get this ready, then, you know, the SLT team isn't ready to like debate this important topic we have the agenda. So I've got to be able to frame that um you know so or you know there's a partnership that needs to be progressed along we've got to make sure we've got that ready to go so we're not holding Up the developers are ready to get it you know implemented so it's definitely a you know i always i like that sort of urgent first important framing and like always keeping a balance there. But yeah. Matt Stauffer The urgent versus important is very helpful for me as someone with ADHD, because if it's urgent, it's very ([Time 0:24:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/415c7216-0892-4383-b6c3-b4d493350008)) - **Launch Surge Forces Real-World Iteration** - Product launches attract massive, immediate demand; Laravel saw ~10,000 people show up day-one for Cloud and Nightwatch forcing intense support and triage. - That surge explains why even a well-engineered product still needs heavy iteration post-launch to address real-world scale and edge cases. Transcript: Tom Crary Of being Laravel is when you open up the floodgates to Laravel Cloud or Nightwatch, as we did a few months later, is 10,000 people show up the first day. And, you know, it's not like you kind of grow into it and like, you know, the early bugs can work their way out. You've got 10,000 people coming at you from every angle of being like, it's not working, fix this, you know, this is my hosting, it needs to be fixed now, you know? And so that was peak craziness from the, in the hand-to combat. So we've come a long way. I mean, the product is phenomenal now and it's, you know, getting better by the day. It's one of the most exciting times of every month when I see what we're working on for the next month and we sort of debate, these are the projects we're going to prioritize. And, you know, we ruthlessly prioritize because there's 10 times as many things as we actually can possibly do in a month. But it's still the most fun part of every month is like going through the product roadmap for the coming month, which we did yesterday. So it was really, really fun. Matt Stauffer I think what you just said, like it was like, because one of the things that is hidden, what you just said is it's really good today. It was also really good when it launched, but there's a difference between where it is today and when it launched, which is shocking because a large team of extraordinarily capable Developers and designers ([Time 0:27:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0bd7405c-5c4f-45d0-98cd-8844cb8a5045)) - **Prioritize Iteration Over Continuous New Launches** - Shift from reactive launches to iterative refinement to increase sustainable velocity; prioritize product improvements over constant new launches. - Tom says post-launch phase focuses on bringing Nightwatch, Cloud and Forge closer together and iterating monthly roadmaps instead of repeatedly pausing to triage launch influxes. Transcript: Tom Crary So we have a lot of cool stuff coming, but it's cool as it's also, they're not like new product launches. We're now just refining and improving the overall, the products we have. And I think that's a, you know, one of a lot more sustainable pace and a direction for us to be going than just constantly be launching products and really trying to bring them together Too. I think one of the big themes, I know Taylor's talking about this is like bringing Nightwatch and cloud much closer together and forge, but like primarily cloud and Nightwatch is our Focus. And so I think like that's a big theme. And I think we're moving much faster as a result of like being able to let the developers and the product folks work on iteration cycles rather than solely being reactive to like, I have A customer issue. I got to deal with it right now. We still have plenty of that, to be fair, but it's not, It's way less than it once was. And we're way more organized with how we, you know, triage that type of input that we get and iterate on it. So it's better, but it's definitely not calm. I would say it's, you know, it's a hyper growth. It's a hyper growth company. And I think it's amplified by the AI environment we're living in. Everything is moving so fast right now. And so that makes everybody like, you know, more productive, but also like, you know, you feel the pressure to move really fast. ([Time 0:31:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3263edbf-ae03-4275-a540-410577dd1aa7)) - **Test Delegation By Taking Real Time Off** - Remove yourself from operational single points of failure before scaling; test by actually taking time off to ensure systems and delegation work. - Tom explains he actively removed dependencies he personally handled and will be off for a week to validate the company runs without him. Transcript: Tom Crary No. Ironically, I'm off next week, Matt. So this is good timing. Oh, really? Well, that's great. It is spring break for the kids next week. So we're going down to Charleston, South Carolina. And we're going to do a mix of history and maybe a little bit of beach a little bit as well. Matt Stauffer Love that. So you're capable of stepping away. I mean, are you making your laptop while everybody's at the beach? Are you really able to come? No, I will have my laptop. Tom Crary I probably, I won't have, I don't think, I don't feel like I'm a dependency to virtually anything though. Like I think the company will, will be fine. In fact, that's one of the reasons you should take off to make sure that those things actually work. So I'm not saying I will not be online every day at some but I don't expect it to be more than a few minutes here or there. And I think that's a good test. I think that's been an evolution for me, too, because I was the first person to do pretty much everything on the business side, just trying to remove myself from each of those dependency Slots. And it's something I'm focused on for the last, I don't know, three or four or five months now is like slowly removing myself from a lot of like the operational dependencies and trying To become a little more like higher level. ([Time 0:35:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ab029b5a-f660-4c52-b06f-106842c7152d)) - **AI Will Drive Demand For Integrated PaaS** - Tom expects AI to amplify demand for platform-as-a-service because LLMs recommend abstracted platforms, creating a closed-loop with Nightwatch for observability and Cloud for deployment. - He cites Taylor's Laracon EU demo with a Claude bot fixing an exception and redeploying live as an example of the tightly integrated future they aim to deliver. Transcript: Tom Crary I mean, I think we're, we're really focused on, on growing cloud at this point and it's going really well. You know, it's, you know, I mentioned a little bit about how AI is changing us, and we see that every day with the latest Claude 4.7 launch or Vethos or whatever's coming next. The benefit to us is I think LLMs are increasingly recommending platforms as a service like Laravel Cloud to abstract away the complexity of AWS directly or other versions. And that's a benefit, net benefit, to how we're set up and what we've built here. And I think a net benefit to the whole community because you can certainly imagine a future, and this is what excites me overall in the vision, is where you do have this closed-loop system, Very much like what Taylor demonstrated on stage at Laracon EU, where he had his Claude bot, and he's, you know, he's got a error exception picked up by Nightwatch and he's pushing it Live on stage. And when you can pull together, you know, the AI tooling, whether it be the, you know, the SDK and the boost that enable you to be really successful in the AI, you And you have this closed Loop system with Nightwatch telling you what's wrong and cloud for deployments. And your coding agent, you can imagine a future that's actually as very streamlined. And so I think we've got the right product vision to meet people there. That's not to say we don't still focus on Forge. But increasingly, it's more on cloud, as you can probably tell. And so that's where we're headed. And I think it's pretty exciting what we're working on. I'd say what's coming next. So in the next month, we're about to launch some, some, some new pricing and packaging plans and also our fast hibernation product, which is going to be a game changer. ([Time 0:40:35](https://share.snipd.com/snip/02bb6d83-9a4a-4044-b400-917e060d65e0)) - **Make Hibernation The Cost Tipping Point** - Use fast hibernation to make hosting cost-effective for hobby and low-traffic apps; hibernate apps so they cost pennies when idle while staying responsive when needed. - Tom highlights upcoming fast hibernation pricing and Postgres hibernation as the tipping point to lure users off VPS/Forge to Cloud for both devs and clients. Transcript: Tom Crary So in the next month, we're about to launch some, some, some new pricing and packaging plans and also our fast hibernation product, which is going to be a game changer. I love that. I'm very excited about that. It's incredible. So I know Taylor's teased this a little bit too. So that's coming soon. You know, it's going to basically have, you really have the ability to, to, to run hibernation in production environment without any real compromise, you know, so you'll be able to Really minimize your cost because you're hibernating most of the time. Responsive. So I think that's going to change the game, especially when we have the comparison against the VPS, right? Which is switch as a challenge because there's so many folks that have used Forge and have used their own VPSs for so long. They're used to paying for a small box and putting a bunch of stuff on there. Well, when you can hibernate an app and pay pennies a month, it becomes comparable. So I think that changes the game a lot from both a developer experience point of view, but also a value point of view for the customer. So that's pretty exciting. ([Time 0:42:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/09292292-42d4-43c9-83af-44be475db8bd)) - **Private Cloud Is Exploding With Enterprise Demand** - Private Cloud adoption surprised Laravel with large enterprise demand and is the fastest-growing product, enabling customers to offload existing infrastructure while meeting compliance needs. - Tom says many larger customers urgently request private hosting, making Private Cloud the company's fastest-growing revenue stream post-launch. Transcript: Tom Crary Cool moment to be in. Totally. And you mentioned private cloud. I think I'm equally excited there, too, to be honest, because that is scaling incredibly fast. And the size of customers that are raising their hands and saying we want this right away has been mind-blowing. So that's been the biggest surprise, I would say, since launch is just how big those customers are. They're like, yes, please take my infrastructure and host it for me. And so that's growing incredibly fast. It's probably, you know, that's our fastest growing product of the company by far right now is private cloud. ([Time 0:44:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5b2dcc15-de28-4d96-b0cf-554fdb865964)) - **AI Is Used Heavily For Business Not Just Coding** - Laravel uses Claude enterprise and Perplexity across functions; AI is embedded into non-engineering workflows like modeling, sales comp, and board prep. - Tom says he uses Claude heavily for business tasks and even for coding assistance when building apps and deploying to Cloud. Transcript: Tom Crary Mean, we're very heavy Claude users here at Laravel. We have the enterprise plan. And so we're all pretty much on there. In my personal life, I also use Perplexity. And I like that a lot for text chat, so I'm a big fan of Perplexity. But I'm using a lot of Cloud, like a ton. It's kind of shocking, the stuff that I'm doing and being much more productive on. I do a bit of coding as well, so I'm not a natural coder. But definitely, you know, AI-assisted coding is really cool and gives you the opportunity to kind of deploy to cloud and get that full experience. So I definitely am building my own apps as well. And it's crazy. But really, my day-to is much more like business use of Claude. And it's incredible for that. Incredible. You know, building models and sales comp plans and, you know, Bortex and everything is running through there. I mean, I could go on and on because I use it for almost everything. ([Time 0:46:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ec38dfea-fd51-4f25-90c5-cc64d5a1ea6d))