Busting Pizza’s Biggest Myths With Nathan Myhrvold  ## Metadata - Author: [[Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio]] - Full Title: Busting Pizza’s Biggest Myths With Nathan Myhrvold - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/1f4159c7-643d-4551-9a3f-3408af0176d6 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **What Counts As Pizza** - Nathan Myhrvold defines pizza as the Naples-born flatbread lineage that spread worldwide in the 19th century. - He excludes other global flatbreads and focuses on variations derived from Neapolitan pizza. Transcript: Christopher Kimball Right now, it's my interview with the founder of Modernist Cuisine, Nathan Meervold. His latest book is Modernist Pizza. The three-volume, 1,700 guide answers every question you could ever have about pizza. Nathan, welcome back to Milk Street. Nathan Myhrvold Well, great to be here. Christopher Kimball I can't say I read your book because, you know, I didn't have six months in a cabin on top of a mountain. But I did go through the book. And I have to say, it is amazing. The amount of work that went into is fascinating. And going through all the history and talking about what's not true, what is true. But let's start with a question you ask at the beginning of the book, which is what is pizza? So, you know, in Lebanese, you know, Middle Eastern cooking, there are a lot of flatbreads. Yep. It might have some za'atar on it or something simple. So any topping on a flatbread, is that pizza? Nathan Myhrvold No, not by the definition that we picked. Those other flatbreads may be wonderful, but we chose to pick a particular lineage. So this is very much like saying, there's probably a lot of wonderful people in the world named Kimball, but only a small set of those are actually relatives of you, Chris. And that was the idea we had with pizza, which is out of all of the world's flatbreads, one particular flatbread rose up and conquered the earth. And that flatbread originated in Naples in the 19th century. It mutated into many other forms as it left Naples and conquered the world. And so for us, pizza is all of the things related to that. Christopher Kimball Okay, so let's talk about the book. How big is the book? What does it weigh? How many pages is it? And talk about your lab. I don't know if it's the same place I visited to make me lunch years ago. But it was stunning. So describe the book and the lab. Nathan Myhrvold Well, the book is three hardcover volumes and then one spiral bound kitchen manual. It comes in a stainless steel case, which in honor of Italy and famous exports of Italy like Ferraris, we painted it red. So the goal of the book is to explain everything we know about pizza today. That includes history, that includes the science of pizza, and it includes more than a thousand recipes, including recipes of many, many different styles of pizza. ([Time 0:22:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/38320c64-b32e-49f3-8873-85aa2e0d7a3a)) - **How The Book Was Built** - Modernist Pizza is three volumes plus a spiral kitchen manual housed in a red stainless case inspired by Italian exports. - The lab includes a restaurant-scale kitchen, scientific gear, and a machine shop for thousands of experiments. Transcript: Nathan Myhrvold It comes in a stainless steel case, which in honor of Italy and famous exports of Italy like Ferraris, we painted it red. So the goal of the book is to explain everything we know about pizza today. That includes history, that includes the science of pizza, and it includes more than a thousand recipes, including recipes of many, many different styles of pizza. So you have Detroit pizza, you have Chicago deep dish pizza and Chicago thin pizza and St. Louis style pizza and depending on how you count it, up to a dozen of these variations. You could even say Tokyo marinara is almost getting to be its own style of a pizza. Christopher Kimball And tell us about your lab. I mean, you have a lot of equipment there, 3D printers, this and that, the other thing. Which are the things you actually use on a regular basis to do a book like pizza? Nathan Myhrvold Well, we have a large kitchen that I don't think there's any restaurant in the world that would be better equipped for cooking equipment. We also have a lot of scientific equipment, which you'd find in a really well done food lab. And we have a machine shop. ([Time 0:24:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8bb54a87-7de7-4d94-a164-28e84c20523e)) - **Ignore The Myth Of Magical Water** - Don't believe claims that local water (Naples or New York) is required to make great pizza; Myhrvold tested waters side-by-side. - Focus on technique, not mythical ingredients, to improve home pizza. Transcript: Nathan Myhrvold So you have people who say, oh, you can't make pizza without having the water of Naples or of New York City. That's wrong. We tested that extensively. We did that in part by bringing water back and then doing side-by tests in our kitchen with the water of the supposed magical place. ([Time 0:26:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2223915c-f221-482b-b8cc-6d2cf781d3ec)) - **Fuel History Shapes Pizza Myths** - Historical fuel matters: New Haven coal ovens actually used 'coke', not raw coal, which doesn't smell like coal. - Tradition stories can mislead about what made classic pizzerias successful. Transcript: Nathan Myhrvold Oh another great thing was like what kind of oven? Oh that a coal burning oven is so much better than a gas-fired oven. Well it turns out when people say coal burning ovens, the place that really perfected this was in New Haven. And it wasn't coal. It was a product called Coke, which was used for the metalworking industry. ([Time 0:27:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/75e650a1-631c-44d8-93a0-7450ccbd3065)) - **Margherita Origin Is Uncertain** - Many origin stories for pizza margherita are fabricated; recipes predated the queen's fame in Naples. - Myhrvold warns that locals and sources often reshape history for prestige or marketing. Transcript: Nathan Myhrvold Well, we don't know how pizza margarita actually originated. There was a charismatic story that this one pizzolo created it for Queen Margherita, who was the first queen of Italy. The problem is, I found a play written in Naples about 20 years before Margarita was queen. And in the play, there is a pizzolo and a customer. And the customer orders a pizza with mozzarella, tomato, and basil, which is the classic Margarita. So it clearly was something that existed in the town for a long time. ([Time 0:29:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/14be3d20-20b9-4a3b-afd1-814a7636928f)) - **Match Flour To Pizza Style** - Choose flour by pizza style: use higher-protein bread flour for structure and low-protein for cracker or some deep-dish styles. - Adjust technique and fermentation when protein is high to avoid dough that snaps back. Transcript: Christopher Kimball I think in general, you're in favor of high protein flour, like in the 14 percent range. But a lot of people over the years have talked about, well, gee, in Italy, sometimes they use a very low gluten flour or they talk about double zero flour, which is very finely milled versus Coarser mills. Nathan Myhrvold To what extent does flour make a huge difference here part of it depends on the style of pizza that you're going for you know i i think you can make a pizza crust out of any flour you'd make Bread out of and bread flours generally are higher protein flours than not, and that really aids in creating the structure for the bread. If the protein amount is too high and or if you use the wrong technique, like you try to do it without letting it sit overnight, what you'll discover is that the dough is too strong. And that means as you try to spread the dough out to make it nice thin patty, it stretches right back up. So that's the problem with having one that is too high in gluten, but with the right technique, you can do well. ([Time 0:30:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4e0989fe-072a-44e9-b2a3-eeddd2bc8590)) - **You Don't Need Wood Fire** - For New York-style, add some oil to dough and bake at lower temperatures than Neapolitan. - You don't need a wood-fired oven to achieve excellent pizza; gas or electric can match it with proper control. Transcript: Christopher Kimball The difference in your mind between New York-style pizza and Neapolitan pizza? Nathan Myhrvold New York-style pizza has got a whole bunch of differences. One is it's usually bigger. You know, the standard pizza in the New York world is an 18-inch pizza. You know, the difference from a dough perspective is we would definitely put some oil in our New York dough, and we would not cook it anywhere near as hot. A traditional Neapolitan is cooked in a very hot oven. I timed it. Christopher Kimball It was, when I was there, it was 70 seconds, I think. Yeah. It was fast. Nathan Myhrvold It's super fast. Then there's this whole thing about whether you need a wood-burning oven or not. I have come to regard wood-burning ovens very much like I regard unicycles. You know, if you go to a Cirque du Soleil show, they'll probably have one of the elements with people on unicycles doing amazing stuff. And if you're one of those Cirque du Soleil people, hey, a unicycle is awesome. But very few people commute to work on a unicycle. It's just, it's not that efficient. It's more of a stunt. ([Time 0:32:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/74c29335-8298-44e1-b4cf-8718df302309)) - **Make Pizza At Home** - Try making pizza at home; it's easier than people fear and cost-effective since flour is cheap. - Don't let fermentation intimidate you; even imperfect home pizzas are worthwhile. Transcript: Nathan Myhrvold I think the first thing is people get afraid of bread or pizza because it involves fermentation step and they're afraid it won't come out but there are few things cheaper than flour so I totally encourage people to experiment it pizza is funny because it is much more widely eaten than it is made. Yet, it's actually not that hard to make at home. Now, if you say, okay, you want to make the absolute perfect Neapolitan pizza as good as a professional in Naples, okay, that will require some effort, just like it required that guy Some effort. But you can make pizza at home. There's nothing to be afraid of. And it turns out even bad pizza made at home is pizza. It's not that bad. ([Time 0:34:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9d4474c7-32ce-4684-9642-4d25ef68cb63)) - **Render Leaf Lard Gently** - Render leaf lard slowly with some water over low heat and strain into containers; leaf lard yields a neutral, clean flavor ideal for baking. - Use leaf lard (around the kidneys) for pie dough to get superior texture. Transcript: Christopher Kimball As Sarah was probably about to say to you, they often roast the bones first to get some browning and Maillard reaction, which adds flavor. And you should probably let it sit at least for a couple hours in lots of cold water. It'll reduce over time. You can add lots of other ingredients like parsley or quartered onions, other things. If you want a really quick way to do it, chicken wings are the best. That's what we use. Take a bunch of chicken wings and put them in water to cover. You can do this in an instant pot in about 30 minutes. And there's so much collagen in those wings, which adds great body to the stock and flavor. So if you have a carcass, cut it up, simmer it for two to three hours, right, Sarah, until you have flavor. ([Time 0:47:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b6eb5806-73f6-4dcd-a54c-4ae1f42479cf)) - **Make Flavorful, Clear Stock** - Simmer chicken carcasses 2–3 hours or use wings for quicker, collagen-rich stock; roast bones first for deeper flavor. - Avoid rolling at a boil to keep stock clear and reduce to concentrate flavor if needed. Transcript: Sara Moulton I would cook it, you know, this is another thing that Chris makes fun of me about. I would, you know, I'd bare a simmer to make sure that you don't cloud it up because you want it to be clear. You know, I'd cook it for two and a half hours, you know, and after you strain it, if it doesn't taste strong enough, just boil it down until it tastes like something. Christopher Kimball Or go out and buy a jar of Better Than Bouillon. They make chicken, beef, and vegetable in a little glass jar. It's a paste. You use one teaspoon per cup and one tablespoon per quart. It's actually quite good. It's not as good as this. Sara Moulton Yeah. Well, I think the nice thing here is that she's using up leftovers, getting a second life out of them. I do love to use up those leftovers. And I think, Sarah, that I'm hearing you say that if I don't want it to be cloudy, it helps not to boil. Correct. ([Time 0:48:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d61f701a-645f-42d7-bc47-6675de985f4b)) - **We Define Ourselves By Diet Restrictions** - Adam Gopnik observes modern diners define themselves by what they won't eat rather than what they do eat. - He links this shift to self-diagnosis and the rise of dietary identity as social signaling. Transcript: Adam Gopnik How are you today? Pretty good. I have just come out from under one of the strangest gastronomic culinary cooking experiences of my life because I had both of our kids, their partners, and their dogs, and everyone To feed all the time. And here's what makes it complex. One is a vegetarian. Christopher Kimball Oh, here we go. Adam Gopnik The other is totally gluten allergic. One is a vegan. Next one is a pescatarian. And this is where it gets really complicated and baroque. The gluten allergic one actually loves red meat and strong tastes of all kinds. So I had to take this into account. One dog had significant stomach issues and had to live on boiled chicken and rice. And every day I would sort of make the rounds trying to figure out what am I going to cook tonight that will satisfy this astounding roster of allergies, aversions, and preferences. Christopher Kimball I think oatmeal almond milk. Adam Gopnik That probably might have done it. But first of all, I got interested, as you know I tend to do, in what we might call the larger question. When did this become so prevalent, right? 20 years ago, the waiter did not say to us, is there anyone in your party with allergies? And now it's absolutely mandatory that they say it. I was actually doing some reading and according to one report, one study found that about 10% of adults and children diagnosed themselves as having a food allergy of some kind, while Medical testing shows that about two and a half percent actually do. Now, I don't mean to be mean-spirited about this, because you have to respect everybody's aversions and allergies because they testify to them. But it does seem to me that this is a construction that we've created for ourselves where everybody has a very, very strong kind of personal Maginot line of what they can eat or not. And rather than thinking of that as the culinary Maginot line, I realized that we have crossed what I think of as the Briar-Severin line. You remember Briar-Severin, maybe the greatest food writer and food philosopher, for that matter, who's ever lived, right? He was the man who wrote The Physiology of Taste, and he was the one who said, so famously, we are what we eat. Show me what you eat, and I will show you who you are. Now what we say to each other is, show me what you won't eat, and I will show you who you are. We define ourselves by our distaste. The end of dining at the table is to find something that is neutral and acceptable to everyone. So I was struggling with this day after day. What dinner would be acceptable for the entire table? ([Time 0:50:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8f0669fa-9467-4b24-b57c-911d027a367c))