Community + Code Episode 13 - Mike Demo - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Community + Code: Episode 13 - Mike Demo 🔗 **Source:** [Community + Code: Episode 13 - Mike Demo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [community-code, wordpress, hosting, devrel] > author: Community + Code Podcast > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Community + Code: Episode 13 - Mike Demo >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research mentorship programs for WordPress contributor onboarding — addressing community barriers #community - [H2] Explore vegan-friendly conference venues for inclusive event planning — travel considerations #diversity - [H3] Document cross-CMS governance models for open source best practices — WordPress vs Joomla comparison #governance ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Mike Demo's Website](https://mikedemo.com) - [Happy Cow App](https://happycow.net) ## 📝 Summary - Mike Demo, Partnerships Lead North America at Hosting.com, discusses his WordPress journey starting from Joomla background - Key focus on developer relations, agency partnerships, and community building through conference networking - Challenges around open source contribution onboarding and the need for better mentorship programs - Personal insights on traveling as a vegan to tech conferences and balancing work travel with family - Comparison of governance models between WordPress, Joomla, and Drupal communities ## 📖 Main Content Mike Demo transitioned from Joomla to WordPress through InMotion Hosting's BoldGrid evangelist role. His current position focuses on helping agencies and developers optimize their hosting solutions and RFP processes. The conversation covers the evolution of open source CMS communities, highlighting governance differences where Joomla uses flat organizational structure versus WordPress's clearer leadership direction. Demo emphasizes the importance of cross-project collaboration rather than tribalism, advocating for unified efforts against closed-source platforms like Shopify that can lock in users with escalating costs. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Role Definition - Key idea: Mike's title doesn't accurately represent his actual work scope - Evidence: "I help agencies and their developers be more efficient in what they do" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=150) — [H2] WordPress Origin Story via Salt Lake City WordCamp - Key idea: First WordCamp was essentially a job interview for InMotion Hosting - Evidence: "He wanted to make sure I wouldn't burst into flames if I walked into a word camp" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=345) — [H1] Conference Travel Philosophy - Key idea: Travel intensive role requires strategic approach to location experiences - Evidence: "Conference rooms around the world, you know" - 157 days per year at peak #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=500) — [H2] Family Travel Challenges with Work Events - Key idea: Balancing family time with professional networking responsibilities creates tension - Evidence: "Either I ignore my family or I feel like I'm ignoring my job" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=735) — [H1] WordCamp US San Diego Success Story - Key idea: Smaller, selective events can produce higher quality professional interactions - Evidence: "There was a lot less users but there was a lot more BD conversations happening" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=930) — [H2] Vegan Travel Challenges and Solutions - Key idea: International vegan dining requires preparation and local knowledge - Evidence: "Happy Cow app saves so much time" - essential tool for finding options #### ⏱️ [22:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=1365) — [H1] Early Technology Background - Key idea: Early exposure through family engineering background shaped tech trajectory - Evidence: "We had the first Apple 2 computer home computer in the state of Minnesota" #### ⏱️ [26:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=1570) — [H2] High School HTML Success and Teaching - Key idea: Accelerated learning led to peer instruction opportunities - Evidence: "I finished the entire course in three days" and became TA #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=1710) — [H1] DECA Competition Victory Over Future Automattic Employee - Key idea: Early competitive success in web development against notable future colleague - Evidence: "Jesse from Automatic, he was also competing that same year and I beat him" #### ⏱️ [32:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=1940) — [H2] Joomla Discovery Through Hosting Auto-Installers - Key idea: CMS exploration through Fantastico led to Mambo then Joomla adoption - Evidence: "I was just installing CMS's, playing around with it" #### ⏱️ [35:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=2115) — [H1] Open Source Contribution Barriers - Key idea: Onboarding new volunteers remains systemically challenging across projects - Evidence: "It's really really hard for somebody brand new to a community to contribute" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=2325) — [H2] Drupal's Mentorship Model for Contributors - Key idea: Structured one-on-one mentoring significantly improves contributor onboarding - Evidence: "Every new contributor has somebody, one person who has at least gone through it" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=2550) — [H1] Joomla's Progressive PHP Adoption - Key idea: Joomla's willingness to mandate modern PHP versions drives ecosystem standards - Evidence: "Joomla was the first ever open source CMS to mandate PHP7" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ?t=2720) — [H2] Cross-CMS Collaboration Over Tribalism - Key idea: Focus should be on open source unity against closed proprietary platforms - Evidence: "The battle is not with each other. It's with closed source systems" ## 📚 References - [Mike Demo's Website](https://mikedemo.com) - [Happy Cow Vegan Restaurant Finder](https://happycow.net) - [InMotion Hosting](https://inmotionhosting.com) - [Hosting.com](https://hosting.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Mike transitioned from Joomla community leadership to WordPress through a hosting company evangelist role, bringing cross-platform perspective - Conference travel for DevRel work creates tensions between professional networking obligations and personal/family time - Open source contribution onboarding remains a universal challenge requiring better structured mentorship programs across all CMS communities ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Community Spotlight: Cross-Platform Perspective on Growth** This week's Community + Code episode features Mike Demo from Hosting.com, sharing insights from his journey across multiple open source communities. His experience transitioning from Joomla board membership to WordPress partnerships offers valuable lessons for our community. **Key Takeaway:** Better contributor onboarding could dramatically expand our volunteer base. Mike's comparison of mentorship models across CMSs suggests WordPress could benefit from more structured first-contributor support. **Practical Application:** Consider implementing buddy systems for new contributors at local meetups and WordCamps, following successful models from Drupal's contributor days. Resources: [Contributing to WordPress](https://make.wordpress.org/), [WordCamp Organizer Handbook](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/), [Core Contributor Handbook](https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Research cross-CMS mentorship programs for WordPress contributor onboarding improvements - Education: Develop structured first-contributor workshop curriculum based on Drupal's mentorship model - Community management: Document barriers to WordPress contribution and propose solutions #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate onboarding friction points for new contributors using comparative analysis - Community: Design mentorship program templates for WordCamps and meetups - Training: Create "first contribution" learning paths with paired mentoring components - Documentation: Improve contributor journey documentation with clearer entry points #### Community - Maintainers: Establish contributor buddy systems for major WordPress projects - Contributors: Develop cross-project collaboration initiatives to share governance best practices - Sponsors: Fund mentorship program pilot at WordCamp US ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Structured mentorship programs increase new contributor retention by 300% compared to self-directed onboarding - Cross-CMS governance knowledge sharing improves decision-making quality in WordPress leadership - Better vegan food availability at conferences correlates with higher diversity in tech event attendance - Agency partnership programs reduce churn more effectively than traditional sales approaches ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of contributor retention across Drupal vs WordPress events with mentorship tracking - Survey agency decision-makers on partnership value versus traditional vendor relationships - Longitudinal study of contributor journey success rates with different onboarding models ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress implement Drupal-style contributor mentorship without overwhelming existing volunteers? - What governance practices from Joomla's flat organization model could benefit WordPress's centralized approach? - How do hosting partnerships influence long-term WordPress ecosystem health versus short-term growth? ### 🔮 Future Research - Quantitative analysis of open source CMS contributor pipeline effectiveness - Cross-platform collaboration opportunities for shared tooling and standards - Impact assessment of DevRel travel versus virtual community engagement ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress contributor days need structured mentorship to reduce onboarding friction - Policy: Cross-CMS collaboration could strengthen entire open source ecosystem against proprietary competitors - Education: Technical conference accessibility extends beyond physical accommodations to dietary and cultural needs - Community: Professional relationship building requires balancing networking obligations with personal boundaries ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Podcast format lacks visual elements - Improve: Add timeline diagrams of Mike's career progression, CMS governance comparison charts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format with conversational style - Improve: Chapter markers for topic navigation, transcript with speaker identification #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive analogies, personal anecdotes, industry terminology explanations - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, story-driven case study summaries #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Limited hands-on elements in interview format - Improve: Contributor onboarding checklists, conference planning worksheets #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear problem-solution discussions, comparative analysis of CMS approaches - Improve: Decision trees for contributor pathways, metrics for partnership success #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion, relationship building emphasis - Improve: Discussion prompts for WordPress meetups, peer mentoring frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual career journey narrative - Improve: Self-assessment tools for contribution interests, reflective questions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about open source communities - Improve: Community health analogies, sustainable contribution models ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio-first content with full transcript - Improve: Structured headings in transcript, speaker identification tags #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Custom transcript with jump-to-timestamp functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: YouTube's built-in accessibility features - Improve: High-contrast transcript option, adjustable text sizing #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive YouTube embed - Improve: Standalone transcript page with better mobile formatting #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available - Improve: Professional captions with technical term accuracy, downloadable SRT files #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic YouTube comment functionality - Improve: Structured feedback forms for community input on discussed topics ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of international conference experiences, global community perspective - Improve: More diverse guest representation, non-Western community examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of dietary restrictions and accessibility needs - Improve: Consistent use of community-first language, avoid insider jargon #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational podcast format with natural pacing - Improve: Content warnings for rapid topic changes, structured show notes #### Representation - Present: Male host and guest from hosting/agency background - Improve: Diverse guest booking, varied professional background representation #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement and constructive criticism - Improve: Clear community guidelines for discussion participation ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear cause-effect relationships between mentorship and contributor success - Inductive strength: Generalizes from personal experience to broader community patterns - Causal reasoning: Links governance models to project outcomes effectively - Analogical strength: Appropriate comparisons between CMS communities #### Fallacies - Hasty generalization: Limited sample size for cross-CMS governance conclusions, addressed by acknowledging personal experience limitations - Appeal to tradition: "That's how we've always done it" in contributor onboarding, countered with reform proposals #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, collaborative, and constructively critical with authentic personal anecdotes ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - Attack: No attacks on accusers or critics - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals identified - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive, solution-focused discussion without defensive language ## 🎯 Conclusion Mike Demo's cross-platform experience highlights critical gaps in WordPress contributor onboarding while demonstrating the value of community relationship building over traditional sales approaches. His journey from Joomla governance to WordPress partnerships illustrates how open source projects can learn from each other's strengths. The emphasis on structured mentorship programs and reducing tribal boundaries between platforms offers actionable insights for growing WordPress's contributor base and strengthening the broader open web ecosystem. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Cross-CMS governance models offer complementary strengths > [!quote] [Community + Code: Episode 13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSvZJbBgBQ) by Community + Code Podcast via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "The governance is very public --- ## Full Transcript [00:21] Welcome to community and code the [00:22] podcast where we talk to the human [00:25] beings behind the commits. I am here [00:28] today with Mike Demo who is a technical [00:30] account manager at hosting.com. Although [00:34] we actually uh met up last week uh in [00:37] Word Camp Canada and uh like I'm going [00:41] to let you explain what it is that you [00:43] actually do because I don't know that [00:45] the words that uh are in your title [00:47] necessarily represent uh accurately the [00:50] things that you do. [00:52] >> Yeah. So, my title's actually been [00:54] updated since I filled out your form. [00:57] Um, uh, the first [00:59] >> I'm going off of LinkedIn, so you need [01:00] to update that, buddy. [01:02] >> I I updated LinkedIn. Um, at least I [01:06] thought I did. Anyway, whatever. So, um, [01:10] yeah. So, [01:11] >> partnerships lead. Okay. You updated [01:12] your you updated your title. You didn't [01:14] update your headline. That's the That's [01:16] >> Oh, okay. Yeah. So, my I did not update [01:19] my headline. I do need to do that. [01:20] >> Yes. Uh so partnerships lead North [01:23] America [01:24] technical account manager. Bottom line [01:27] is I help agencies uh and their [01:30] developers be more efficient in what [01:32] they do. So that could mean uh helping [01:36] them get set up on the right type of [01:38] server or helping them optimize their [01:41] RFP process so they can sell more uh [01:44] slash basically just connecting people [01:46] and trying to um help humans meet other [01:49] humans in a very non sales way. So [01:53] that's basically what I do is I my title [01:56] at InMotion Hosting when I worked there [01:58] was lead handshaker and that's basically [02:00] still my role today. That's that that [02:02] sounds that sounds appropriate. What [02:04] what you're what you're not saying is [02:06] that um I we see each other basically at [02:10] every uh WordPress event that I go to. [02:13] Um and I'm sure there are many that I [02:16] don't go to. So also like I understand [02:19] that there's a fair amount of travel [02:22] which makes it feel to me as someone who [02:25] is in Devril uh that you kind of do a [02:28] lot of like the Devrily stuff. Maybe not [02:30] the developer advocacy stuff, but [02:32] definitely like the going places and [02:35] talking to people and uh trying to [02:38] figure out solutions and best practices [02:40] for for what works uh for the people [02:43] that you're talking to at at things like [02:44] this. Is that not accurate? [02:47] >> Uh no, I would say that's very accurate. [02:49] Um definitely not like pushing like a [02:51] set of APIs or anything like that, but [02:54] um talking to developers that work at [02:56] agencies, specifically larger agencies, [02:58] about their pain points, what what do [03:01] they like with their existing provider? [03:03] What don't they like? What do they wish [03:04] they could do uh from a platform [03:07] perspective? and then you know helping [03:09] them if it makes sense utilizing some of [03:12] our services or if not um you know [03:15] making recommendations for uh different [03:18] things that might help you know fulfill [03:21] their needs. Um, a lot of the time it's [03:24] just edge case stuff where, hey, I have [03:26] this client who needs this certification [03:28] I've never heard of. Do you have this? [03:30] And I'm like, yes, yes, we do. Here's [03:32] the documentation. Okay, great. So, it [03:34] it really just depends. But bottom line, [03:36] just trying to add value wherever it [03:38] makes sense. Sometimes that involves our [03:40] products. Uh, sometimes it doesn't. [03:43] Sometimes that means recommending other [03:44] providers. Uh, it just depends on what's [03:46] best for the people I'm talking to. And [03:49] at the end of the day, that's what [03:50] people remember is you being helpful, [03:52] not [03:53] >> right [03:54] >> product A or product B. [03:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I have the be I [03:58] have the extra bonus benefit of uh [04:03] knowing you from the very beginnings of [04:06] your WordPress origin story because uh [04:09] what uh folks uh who who don't know [04:13] either of us or both of us uh might not [04:16] know is that uh Mike's first word camp [04:19] was my word camp, Word Camp Salt Lake [04:21] City, uh that I was either organizing or [04:25] co-organizing. I can't remember what I [04:26] was doing then. Uh if it was I'm looking [04:29] at your thing if it's 2017 was your uh [04:32] if it if that's the year I probably was [04:35] I probably lead organizing that one. I [04:37] don't remember. It was a long long time [04:39] ago. [04:40] >> Um but yeah, so like uh tell the story [04:44] of of uh of your [04:48] how that how that became your entry [04:50] point into WordPress. [04:53] >> Yeah. So, uh, I've been in open source a [04:56] very long time. Uh, I steal a quote from [04:59] Jessica Dumbar, who was the evangelist [05:02] for Concrete 5 CMS. Um, I'm not married [05:05] to a CMS. I'm in an open source [05:07] relationship. And, [05:10] uh, I started in Jumla. Uh, well, [05:13] technically I, you know, from a [05:15] community standpoint, I started in [05:17] Jumla. So, I was in the Jumla community [05:18] a very long time. And uh I was doing [05:21] senior dev stuff at agencies um mostly [05:24] jumla sites um for banks and credit [05:26] unions and then private uh private [05:28] equity portfolios and things like that. [05:31] Um and I ran into Todd at a hosting [05:36] conference. It was hosting con in New [05:38] Orleans and I was speaking there on [05:40] behalf of Jumla because I was the [05:42] finance team lead at the time. Um which [05:45] basically means selling sponsorships [05:47] too. uh you know companies don't want to [05:50] sponsor it um which basically means [05:53] selling to hosting companies to sponsor [05:55] >> the project just like all the open [05:58] source projects still do um and I ran [06:01] into Todd and I met Todd before at the [06:03] Jumal world conference um he's the [06:05] co-founder of Inotion and they were [06:06] promoting Bold Grid which was their big [06:09] uh new push into WordPress at the time [06:12] we started talking they were looking for [06:14] an evangelist he said it's not Jumla I [06:16] said that's fine and uh I basically was [06:20] offered a job, but he wanted to make [06:22] sure I wouldn't burst into flames if I [06:24] walked into a word camp. So, uh he sent [06:27] me to Salt Lake City to as kind of like [06:29] an as like an interview. And uh yeah, [06:33] that was my first word camp. And the [06:35] funny part about that is the agency I [06:37] was at was a downtown agency in [06:39] Minneapolis. Uh they were a WordPress [06:41] agency and I just finished a a year-long [06:44] project converting them all to Jumla. I [06:47] left to go work at InMotion as a [06:50] WordPress evangelist. So, uh, that's [06:53] kind of how I started in WordPress and, [06:55] uh, the rest is kind of [06:57] >> I don't know that we ever that we've [06:59] ever talked about this, but that just [07:01] makes me wonder [07:03] why Salt Lake City like why was why was [07:06] my word camp the word camp that you got [07:08] sent to? Is there any particular reason? [07:10] >> Uh, I don't think so. I think uh [07:13] InMotion um they were a global sponsor [07:16] or at least a North American global [07:18] sponsor. Um [07:19] >> yeah, I think I remember their logo [07:21] >> and I think it was just the closest the [07:23] ne whatever the next one was. [07:25] >> Yeah, [07:26] >> they had people going to um I don't [07:30] think there was any specific reason. Um [07:32] it was my first time in Salt Lake City, [07:34] so that was cool. I got to see the [07:36] Tabernacle Choir, so that was exciting. [07:40] Um, uh, [07:41] >> do you have to do anything fun in Salt [07:43] Lake City, though? [07:45] >> Uh, [07:47] that first trip, not so much because I [07:49] came in so late at night. [07:52] >> Um, and I was also nervous because it [07:54] was a job interview, right? [07:55] >> Really know what to expect. So, I didn't [07:57] really do a lot of that trip. Um, I did [08:00] the Tabernacle Choir and Temple Square [08:02] and that was [08:04] >> uh, from an architecture standpoint, it [08:07] was super pretty. But um future trips [08:09] I've been to Salt Lake many many times [08:10] since then and I've you know done lots [08:13] of other things like Park City and all [08:15] that. [08:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I always uh like I said, [08:19] we just came back from Word Camp Canada [08:21] and I I always have this problem with [08:24] going out to events because like unless [08:28] you're going to tack on a day or two or [08:30] something basically like you're not [08:34] going to a place, you're going to a [08:37] conference center and a hotel, you know? [08:40] Like I didn't see Ottawa. I saw the [08:44] inside of my hotel. I saw about one [08:48] blocks worth of downtown. I saw a small [08:53] corner of Carlton University and like I [08:57] saw a what was I I guess a pool place. [09:03] Doulies is I think a Canadian thing but [09:05] I didn't have the context for that. And [09:07] then like a bar like that's that's what [09:10] I saw. [09:11] >> And a very eclectic vegan fast food [09:13] restaurant. and a very eclectic vegan [09:15] fast food restaurant. Yes, correct. [09:17] >> Yes. Um uh yeah. So people are like, "Oh [09:20] man, you're so lucky. You tra I travel [09:23] way less than I used to, but at the [09:25] height of my travel was 157 days a [09:28] year." [09:29] >> Um [09:31] and so that had good and bad parts of [09:34] it, but I would always say, "Yep, [09:36] conference rooms around the world, you [09:38] know." So, what I always try to do, [09:41] although I've been doing this less the [09:44] older I get, is I try to get the latest [09:48] flight out on the last day and try have [09:52] >> like [09:54] a a half day to do something in the [09:57] city. [09:58] >> Uh, and I still always try to do [10:00] something. Um, but it doesn't always [10:02] work out. Um, and I also find myself [10:06] going back to the hotel and sleeping [10:08] when I plan to like, but I had these [10:10] grand visions in my head to [10:13] do this or that. Um, but I was in London [10:16] a few weeks ago with some co-workers and [10:17] we went to the Jurassic World Expedition [10:20] exhibit. So, we did that for a couple of [10:22] hours. So, [10:24] >> little things like that, but definitely [10:26] it's not it's not a vacation, but the [10:28] arts with it. [10:30] >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I feel [10:33] like I feel that way, too. Like, yeah, [10:35] when I went to when I went to Atlanta um [10:37] for Drupal Con, like I would like to be [10:40] able to say that at least for some of [10:41] these places, I would like to be able to [10:42] say that I've I've been there and done [10:44] things. And for some W camps, um [10:46] particularly when I was at Human-Made, [10:48] um when we went as like sort of a big [10:51] group, we would do stuff together as a [10:54] group. That often meant like, you know, [10:56] things outside of the conference. So I [10:58] think that uh in Nashville [11:01] um one of the engineers uh principal [11:04] engineer at humanade now kadam um had a [11:08] contact at like one of the record [11:10] pressing plants and so they gave us a [11:12] tour of the record pressing plant that [11:13] was pretty cool. Um I think I had a [11:15] couple extra days so like went to the [11:17] museums and went to the Johnny Cash [11:18] Museum. Uh went to like a museum of uh [11:21] modern art or something and that was [11:23] that was cool. Um St. Louis got to go to [11:26] to City Museum. not that was where the [11:29] the afterparty was, but I didn't go to [11:30] the afterparty, but I then heard so many [11:33] good things about the afterparty at city [11:35] museum that like I had brought my family [11:37] out there with me. Uh so like we all [11:39] went then uh on a separate day and then [11:41] I think we went again because it was so [11:43] cool. Um [11:46] >> uh in Nashville, did you get a chance to [11:48] go to um tour Hatch show print the print [11:51] shop in the country music hall of fame? [11:52] >> I did not. So, do you This might be a [11:56] deep cut, but do you remember the [11:57] giveaway, the little poster we had at [11:59] Bold Grid? [12:00] >> Uh, I don't think that I do. [12:03] >> Um, anyway, long story short, uh, there [12:06] the oldest, uh, um, uh, printing company [12:10] in, uh, Tennessee is called Hat Show [12:12] Print, and they do woodblock carve [12:14] printing, and they still do it to this [12:17] day. Now it's part of the Country Music [12:18] Hall of Fame. Um, which is a nonprofit. [12:22] And, uh, we hired them to get do our [12:25] giveaway posters for, uh, Word Camp that [12:28] year. And it was funny because everyone [12:30] that wasn't local was like, "That's a [12:33] cool design, but I don't get it." But [12:34] then all the locals were like, "Is that [12:36] Hatch?" And I'm like, "Yeah, because [12:38] it's like people that are into it." [12:40] >> Oh, I remember that now. And I totally [12:42] remember not getting it at the time. [12:44] >> Yeah. So, uh, anyway, uh, they also do a [12:48] tour and you can make your own little [12:49] poster and you learn about how they [12:50] carve out the wood and stuff. So, um, [12:53] that was s that's super interesting. Um, [12:57] uh, yeah, there's good memories [12:59] everywhere. I do have a question for [13:00] you. So, [13:01] >> sure. [13:01] >> I don't like traveling with my family at [13:04] work things because I feel like one or [13:06] two things happens. Either I ignore my [13:08] family [13:09] >> or I'm I feel like I'm ignoring my job. [13:12] >> So, what are your thoughts on that? Uh [13:16] yes, [13:18] my flutter. Yes. Um it's it's rough. I [13:22] And that's that's a conversation that [13:24] I've I've that we have ongoing with my [13:27] partner. Um like there there's a bunch [13:30] there's there's various different [13:32] layers, right? One of the one of the [13:35] levels is like the places that events [13:38] are aren't always or necessarily places [13:41] that we either her and I or we as a [13:45] family would want to go. Um so there's [13:48] there's that thing. So like if it's not [13:50] a place that's interesting, I mean we [13:52] had a lot of flexibility um you know [13:55] more years ago when um cuz we were [13:57] homeschooling our kids. So we could [13:58] pretty much pick up and go wherever. Um, [14:00] now, uh, my daughter's in high school. [14:03] Uh, my son's not in school, but like my [14:05] daughter's in high school, and so like [14:06] we have to, that would also be a [14:08] conflicting factor. Um, but so like [14:11] first of all, it's the place and is the [14:13] place interesting? Um and then second [14:15] secondly, yes, there's always the [14:17] problem like obviously like now and [14:19] particularly since I've put on the [14:21] developer advocate hat um where going to [14:25] the event is much more a distinct sort [14:28] of responsibility of my job. Um then I [14:33] feel more compelled to be present at all [14:37] of the other things like the [14:38] afterparties and the hangouts and [14:40] whatever because I'm on the clock. I'm [14:44] here. I might just be hanging out, but [14:46] I'm wearing my my swag. I've got my [14:49] Pantheon stuff on. I'm having [14:51] conversations. I'm looking for people [14:52] probably to have a particular [14:54] conversation with, even if it's just to [14:56] like make a connection, but just, you [14:58] know, to to be able to bring back to to [15:01] work or or, you know, just to have that [15:04] sort of like good Pantheon vibe uh at [15:06] the event. Um, and that's something [15:09] that, um, when I did go to things with, [15:12] um, with my family, I was doing much [15:15] less of because we'd want to do stuff, [15:17] you know, like it's, you know, the [15:19] conference is what, five, six, seven [15:21] hours or something. And so like the rest [15:23] of the time it's like, okay, we should [15:24] do something together. Um there's like [15:27] then you can do the sort of thing where [15:29] like you you kind of offset it like you [15:32] know we'll there's a couple days of the [15:33] conference but then you know the weekend [15:36] after or couple days before or whatever [15:38] you can do stuff. Um and I've done that [15:40] too but this is that's that's sort of a [15:43] like a it's an ongoing conversation. Um, [15:47] and like there are places that I' I'd [15:49] like to go. Like I would have loved to [15:50] to like have hung out in Ottawa for a [15:53] couple days and like done stuff with my [15:55] partner. Um, like because I wouldn't [15:57] want to do it alone. Um, but also like [15:59] in the future like will I go back to [16:01] Ottawa? I don't know. Maybe, maybe. But [16:03] it's probably not high on the bucket [16:05] list like there's other places. Um, so [16:07] then it's like, you know, yeah, then [16:09] it's just like going to a traveling on [16:12] an airplane to go to a hotel. Um, but [16:15] yeah. um Nashville and and and uh St. [16:19] Louis brought brought the fam. Um I have [16:23] gone to I don't think I brought anyone [16:27] to Portland for a word camp, but we have [16:31] been to Portland. Um we all went to San [16:34] Diego for Word Camp US when it was in [16:36] San Diego. Um because that was a cheaper [16:40] for us. Um and also like San Diego is [16:43] awesome. And that that's sort of the [16:44] other thing too is like how much stuff [16:46] is there where yes I'm going to be gone [16:50] doing work things. So how many things [16:53] are there available for everyone else to [16:56] go and have a a good time? [16:58] >> Yeah. Word Camp US San Diego. I loved it [17:01] that year. It gets it gets knocked down [17:03] a lot because [17:04] >> it was small. It was small. Like tickets [17:07] sold out within seconds or whatever it [17:09] was. [17:09] >> Yeah. It was like Yeah. [17:11] >> Uh it was hundreds of people. not [17:13] thousand, you know, it was uh but the [17:16] venue was at that really cool like uh [17:20] mid-century modern [17:23] >> which definitely wasn't it had its flaws [17:26] as far as modern hotel amenities, but [17:28] being somebody who likes tiki culture [17:31] that is the same hotel that they hold [17:33] the annual Tiki Oasis convention in. So, [17:35] I was in love with I was super happy [17:37] with it. [17:37] >> Did not know that was a thing. [17:39] >> Um yeah. Uh so I uh which is why I [17:44] stayed there and didn't try to stay at a [17:46] Marriott like I always try to do simply [17:48] because I wanted to be at that hotel and [17:52] I don't know it was one of my best work [17:54] camps I feel from a from a work [17:56] perspective the people that came were [17:58] super were like there to have [18:01] conversations. it was a lot less uh [18:04] people that might have found it or [18:05] decided to come like you know uh the [18:08] side effect of it I feel like there was [18:10] a lot less users but there was a lot [18:12] more BD conversations happening that [18:15] year and I think it was just a side [18:17] effect of the people that knew to watch [18:19] the drop were the people that are doing [18:22] all the time so [18:24] >> I but I liked that year I thought it was [18:25] a really good year um and the venue was [18:27] really nice [18:29] >> yeah no I have I have good memories of [18:31] of of that event. But part of that is is [18:34] just because it was in San Diego and San [18:37] Diego is awesome. Um I I find excuses to [18:40] go to San Diego like on a on on any day. [18:43] Um yeah, and I I mean honestly like um [18:47] Word Camp Long Beach uh I spoke at um [18:50] this would have been 20 [18:53] 17 maybe I think maybe 2019 [18:56] >> um somewhere in there in the in the [18:58] pre-COVID days. But like really the only [19:01] reason why I was even like the only [19:04] reason why it was on my radar is because [19:06] it was in Long Beach and like it could [19:08] we could like justify like just going to [19:12] California and going to the beach. [19:13] >> So that word camp in that year was the [19:16] camp I turned vegan. I literally am [19:19] excited to be vegan. Cold turkey [19:23] >> cold turkey. [19:25] >> Well cold cold tofu. [19:28] That's That's even worse. But you you [19:30] just you went full stop. You just like [19:32] I'm I'm vegan today. [19:34] >> Uh I did cuz I was uh I have a lot of [19:37] allergies. Huge long allergy list. Um so [19:40] I was basically only eating dairy and uh [19:44] eggs and uh poultry because I was [19:46] allergic to everything else. [19:47] >> Okay. [19:48] >> Turns out after but I was still getting [19:49] sick all the time. So I Googled morning [19:53] sickness and I ended up on PETA's [19:55] website. Of course, they're talking [19:57] different thing. They were talking about [19:59] >> when you're pregnant, [20:01] >> but I was like, "Well, I'm in [20:02] California. Go to places any just try." [20:05] And [20:07] >> uh and yeah, um I was friends with uh I [20:11] don't know, uh Tommy Telawo uh he uh was [20:15] the person who created Video Games Live, [20:17] the orchestra touring thing. [20:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [20:19] >> He was vegan and so he's gave me some [20:21] tips and yeah, the rest is uh history. [20:25] I've since done other testing with my [20:28] doctor and I also have allergies to [20:30] dairy and other and you know as well. So [20:34] basically [20:35] most everything animal related I'm [20:37] allerg I'm actually allergic to and I' I [20:39] have tests to prove that. Um they're [20:41] different things like I have the tick [20:43] bite allergy for the red meat and then I [20:45] >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah so I [20:48] stopped getting sick all the time. So, [20:49] but yeah, but that was the word camp [20:50] where I tried to go vegan and uh uh [20:55] it it stuck. So, [20:57] >> yeah, that's uh I mean, speaking of [20:59] travel and going to events, like that's [21:02] that's often how how I rank uh the [21:06] places that the events are is how easy [21:08] it is to find vegan food. Um, and I I [21:11] feel like you probably travel a lot more [21:13] than me. Um, what what I guess an [21:17] interesting thing to to think about or [21:19] or what places have you been where there [21:22] was a surprising [21:24] uh lack of availability of of vegan [21:27] food? Maybe maybe surprising is not the [21:30] the the correct word, but it might be. [21:32] And what places um was were surprising [21:37] in the availability of uh vegan food for [21:40] you? Uh yeah. So um first off, shout out [21:45] to the Happy Cow app. If anyone [21:47] >> For sure. Yep. [21:48] >> If anyone needs to find vegan or vegan [21:50] friendly options, like not even full [21:52] vegan restaurants, like let's say you [21:54] have, you know, a friend or something [21:55] visiting wherever you are, it it's [21:58] amazing. It saves so much time. But [22:00] anyway, uh so as far as a place I was [22:04] really surprised that had a lot of [22:05] options, I would say uh um when I was in [22:09] Bangalore, India. So, I was surprised at [22:12] all the vegan options there, which again [22:14] shouldn't be surprising [22:16] >> um thinking about it now, but like [22:18] >> at the time I wasn't thinking about [22:20] that. Same with like Thailand and like [22:22] Israel and things. So, like [22:24] >> um like Tel Aviv had tons of options and [22:27] I didn't even think about that. But then [22:30] looking back, I'm like, well, you know, [22:32] it kind of makes sense because a lot of [22:34] these places, uh vegan checks a lot of [22:37] the boxes, right? Yes. So it can be [22:39] halal, it could be kosher, it can now [22:41] grant [22:42] >> there's certifications and different [22:44] levels of that depending on you know how [22:46] what you follow but [22:48] >> it was way easier in you know Asia and [22:52] um you know uh the Middle East type area [22:56] than I ever thought it would be. where [22:57] it's been really hard is um [23:02] uh like Eastern Europe um [23:05] >> is really hard as well as like coastal [23:08] Europe like uh um Barcelona and things [23:11] because [23:13] >> a lot of many things are marked [23:15] vegetarian or vegan that have fish in [23:17] them and things like that. So [23:20] >> um and that I was really surprised [23:24] about. So, I was at a conference once. [23:25] It was a Jumla conference and I was in [23:27] Barcelona [23:29] and there was nothing in the hotel where [23:31] the conference was that I could eat. Not [23:32] a single item. Um, besides just like a [23:35] roll. [23:36] >> So, literally what I did is every day I [23:40] ordered Domino's pizza because they had [23:42] vegan cheese because by the way, how do [23:44] these American companies in every other [23:47] country have vegan options on the [23:48] regular menu but we don't get that in [23:50] the States? I don't understand that. [23:51] >> Yeah. Right. Anyway, um so I would [23:54] literally just order a Domino's pizza um [23:57] uh every single day of this weeklong [23:59] conference. People made fun of me [24:01] because I was doing that, but there was [24:04] >> literally nothing else around. And where [24:06] the hotel was, there was nothing [24:08] walkable. [24:09] >> So, um I find uh that's why I try to [24:13] stick with Marriott a lot. People make [24:15] fun of me. They're like, "You you only [24:16] want American chains when you travel to [24:18] Europe and Asia." And I'm like, "Yeah, [24:20] two reasons. one points [24:23] >> and two I I know there's going to be [24:26] options at a full service Marriott or [24:29] Sheridan or Western, [24:30] >> right? [24:31] >> I I understand it's not the most [24:33] exciting menu at the restaurants, but at [24:35] least you know there's something. So, [24:37] >> yeah. [24:37] >> What about you? What have you been [24:39] surprised on like when you [24:42] >> I think when I think the first I think [24:45] sort of the origin story of of this [24:47] question or or or thinking about this um [24:51] was uh when I went to uh Word Camp [24:54] Denver um because I didn't necessarily [24:57] expect that Denver would be a really [24:59] good place for vegan food. Um, but it it [25:01] it had lots of stuff and again it's like [25:04] it's not super surprising surprising. [25:08] Um, but you know because it's it's a hip [25:12] cool [25:14] freeweed sort of place like you know [25:16] there's a lot of hippies. Um, and the [25:19] hippie and vegan overlap is is pretty [25:21] the ven diagram is is pretty strong. Um, [25:24] also like I I went to Sri Lanka and that [25:27] wasn't that wasn't hard uh at all. um uh [25:30] that I did a retreat there. Hardest uh [25:33] was definitely and surprisingly hardest. [25:37] Uh Italy was hard. I did a a human-made [25:40] retreat there. I think my first [25:42] humanmade retreat and it was that it was [25:44] the same sort of like European thing [25:46] where like they don't really get the [25:49] criteria and trying to explain it and [25:51] like all the things and also there's [25:53] there's often a language difference and [25:55] like things. It's like it was it was [25:58] rough. Um [26:00] Japan wasn't super easy. Like I we went [26:03] to Japan as a family last year. Um we we [26:07] had like an Airbnb so we ended up like [26:08] cooking a lot of stuff but like going [26:10] out was like we had to be very careful [26:12] like happy cow again. But also there's [26:15] like there's like I think there was some [26:17] uh Google Maps thing that somebody made [26:19] of like all the vegan places in like all [26:21] of the all of Japan and that was very [26:24] helpful that other people had done that [26:25] homework. [26:27] >> Hong Kong was similarly hard for me when [26:29] I was in Hong Kong. Uh although [26:32] thankfully I was staying at the [26:34] Disneyland Resort. Um so it was Disney's [26:38] always been very good in all their parks [26:40] so there's options there. Um, but I [26:42] think it was funny like I was in [26:44] Adventure Land and you know they had the [26:46] squid on a stick [26:47] >> and not because it was in Adventure Land [26:49] just because that was [26:50] >> you know they were in Hong Kong so that [26:52] was interesting. So, um, that wasn't too [26:54] hard, but only at the sit down [26:56] restaurants. It was almost impossible to [26:58] do the counter service or fast food. Um, [27:01] in Hong Kong, [27:02] >> right? And that's I feel like too like [27:04] that was it was a little bit for me [27:06] anyway it was a little bit of a bummer [27:08] um because you hear and you read so much [27:10] stuff about like um street food um in in [27:15] these places and like going down through [27:18] an area where there is street food [27:20] everywhere and being like can't eat [27:21] that, can't eat that, can't eat that, [27:23] can't eat that. Like when you finally [27:24] land on something where you can eat is [27:26] like oh my god, you know. [27:28] >> 100%. Yeah. And it's good to have people [27:31] that like are local too. Like I had a [27:33] when I was at Codable when I was in um [27:36] Thailand, he's like, "Oh, just he's like [27:39] just when you get to any restaurant, say [27:42] you want to prepare Jay, which is a type [27:44] of preparation for um uh one of the uh [27:51] common religions there. Um I don't [27:54] remember exactly which one, but he's [27:55] like it's super common. if you say that [27:59] you'll be fine because [28:00] >> he's like that excludes all of these [28:02] things which basically makes it vegan [28:05] for you. [28:06] >> And I was at a lot of places that I I [28:08] nothing on the menu then I'd be like Jay [28:10] and they would be like oh okay and then [28:12] they would bring me a different menu and [28:13] it was [28:14] >> interesting interesting. Yeah. [28:16] >> Uh even if I didn't speak the language [28:18] he he told me how to pronounce the thing [28:20] to say and it was like it was like a [28:21] secret password to vegan in Thailand. Um [28:25] but uh which funny story on that is we [28:29] took a lot of our developers who were [28:31] local to uh Trader Vicks tiki restaurant [28:35] >> and uh a lot of the devs weren't they [28:38] don't drink alcohol so I was like I told [28:41] my boss oh yeah it'll be fine you know [28:44] uh it won't be that bad. Uh little did I [28:46] know that uh they had the entire menu [28:49] with a zero proof version. So, uh, it [28:53] was the most expensive tiki night I've [28:55] ever seen because nobody had alcohol, [28:58] but they were being charged tiki prices. [29:00] So, that was an that was fun. Um, but [29:03] everyone had a good time, which is [29:04] what's important. [29:06] >> So, a question I ask uh a lot of the [29:08] guests that come on uh this show is is [29:11] what uh what brought you what got you [29:14] into interested in tech? Uh, whatever [29:18] that tech may be. Um, and I think for [29:20] you, I'm interested in, well, we can [29:22] talk about it later, but I'm also [29:23] interested in like um how you got to [29:26] Jumla to begin with and what uh sorts of [29:29] things um [29:31] like the sort of differences between [29:34] WordPress and Jumla that you've seen, [29:36] but but we'll start start with like what [29:38] what how did you what is your sort of [29:40] origin story for getting into technology [29:42] broadly? [29:44] Yeah. So, my dad used to uh work for [29:47] Data General, which then got bought by [29:49] GE, and we had [29:53] the first Apple 2 computer home computer [29:56] in the state of Minnesota. [29:58] >> Oh. [29:58] >> Um in the early early in like 80s or 90s [30:02] or whatever it was. Um, so I've always [30:05] been really big in the tech and he my [30:07] dad was like the president of the local [30:08] rocketry club and um he was an engineer [30:12] on the for NASA before working with a [30:15] data general for the Viking satellite [30:17] project and um so I I get it I've always [30:22] been introduced to it a lot from my dad. [30:24] So uh [30:27] I was always trying to make websites and [30:30] things like that. Um, so like in middle [30:32] school, I I I wrote my papers in HTML. [30:35] >> So, uh, and then when I was a freshman [30:39] in high high school, I took HTML 1 and I [30:43] finished the entire course in three [30:45] days. [30:46] >> Um, it was my first ever elective in [30:49] high school. And then my teacher sent me [30:52] to a college course. I got the got the [30:55] school to pay for it. Um uh and I and [31:01] then he um he had me help him write HTML [31:05] 2, the next um h uh HTML 2011, which [31:09] they never even had yet. Um so I [31:12] basically was a TA the rest of the [31:13] course because I literally completed the [31:14] entire class in three days. [31:18] >> Um and so I've had a lot of great [31:20] teachers. Um, and then I I got into [31:24] DECA, um, which is a business club [31:27] group. Um, which I have a funny story [31:30] about that. Um, uh, which I'll tell you [31:32] in a second, but, uh, they had website [31:35] development and something called the [31:36] SevenUp Challenge. And so I would enter [31:38] that and um I won uh my senior year of [31:44] high school I won um at the [31:46] International Career Development [31:47] Conference first place for the Seven Up [31:50] Challenge banner ad design and website [31:53] campaign design. I built that in flash. [31:57] >> Super super fancy. [32:00] >> And then uh the DECA still exists in [32:03] college. It was called Collegiate DECA. [32:05] Um, I ended up winning uh first place [32:08] for website uh development there. Um, I [32:12] built that in um [32:15] PHP Nuke, [32:17] >> I think. [32:19] >> Um, funny story, uh, Jesse from [32:23] Automatic, [32:24] >> um, he was also competing that same year [32:27] and I beat him. [32:30] Just saying. I mean, you can argue that [32:32] he ended up way more successful than I [32:34] did, but I beat him at uh that year. So, [32:38] and we didn't figure this out till like [32:39] two years ago when he's like, I've only [32:41] been at Disneyland once. It was, have [32:43] you heard of something called DECA? I'm [32:44] like 2005 career develop international [32:47] career development conference [32:48] collegiate. He's like, [32:49] >> yeah, like we and then he's like, I've [32:52] never anyway, long story short. [32:54] >> So, uh and then from there, uh I I was [32:59] an intern [33:01] I went to college for website [33:02] development, but I knew a lot of the [33:04] stuff already and just super into it. [33:06] Um, how I found Jumla was I uh Sychron [33:12] was my first host. [33:13] >> So, [33:14] >> uh, if you don't count like Angel Fire [33:17] and some of those other like shared, [33:20] right? Um, so I I was like a customer of [33:23] Psych Ground back when they only had one [33:25] product, you know, it was just hosting. [33:28] Um, and they had C panel with Fantastico [33:32] for the auto installer because software [33:34] didn't exist. [33:36] >> And I was just installing CMS's, playing [33:38] around with it. And then I found on [33:39] Mambbo and fell in love. And then uh I [33:43] noticed Mambbo wasn't getting a lot of [33:45] uh development after a while. Uh, and [33:50] then I started clicking around again and [33:52] found Joomla. I'm like, this is a lot [33:53] like Mambbo. I didn't know it was a fork [33:55] at the time. Mhm. [33:56] >> Um because I wasn't in the community and [33:58] then I just kept [34:01] building websites um for small [34:04] businesses and then uh started [34:07] freelancing and just kept doing that and [34:10] I selftaught myself all of Jumla um and [34:13] then PH you know uh PHP and stuff and uh [34:17] then started using it in my job um and [34:21] then that's how I ended up in the agency [34:23] life and then the more I got in the [34:25] jumla the more I went to the conferences [34:27] then met people who help who helped me [34:29] volunteer because I still think the [34:32] biggest hardest part of all these [34:34] projects is contributing [34:36] >> we all say it's easy to contribute like [34:38] oh you need to contribute you need to [34:39] contribute go to contributor day it's [34:41] really really hard for somebody brand [34:43] new to a community to to contribute like [34:48] for me for Jumla I sent email and email [34:51] and email filled out forms and no one [34:52] would get back to me it wasn't until I [34:55] went to a Jumla conference and said the [34:57] team leader and said I want to join your [34:59] team that anything happened and it's not [35:02] a knock it's just everyone's [35:03] volunteering so it's just the onboarding [35:06] process of any of this even at word [35:08] camps it's not easy for someone just to [35:11] show up and be and contribute because [35:13] it's all it's still clicky [35:15] >> like uh you have to really push hard and [35:17] I feel like that's a huge opportunity [35:20] that nobody's cracked the nut on yet I [35:22] feel like there needs to be an [35:23] onboarding [35:25] path for people that want to volunteer. [35:28] Uh like, oh, what are you interested in? [35:30] What do you want to do? Oh, let me [35:31] introduce you to so and so and whatever. [35:34] Um, you know, just throwing a big dock [35:37] and saying, here's how to prep for [35:38] contributor day. Pick your team. Good [35:40] luck. It's it's intimidating. Um, [35:45] >> anyway, so that's how I got into tech. [35:46] That's a very long answer. [35:47] >> I I I on the contributing topic. Um I so [35:53] I went to uh Drupalcon for the first [35:54] time this last year. Uh I stayed for [35:57] contributor day. Um contributor day at [35:59] Drupalcon is the last day. Um at word [36:01] camps it's often the first day although [36:03] it's kind of been either way. Um [36:06] and um [36:09] Drupal Con sort of starts off uh [36:12] contributor starts off like you kind of [36:13] figure out where [36:15] what if you're a developer you go with [36:17] the developers. If you're a marketing [36:18] you go with like marketers. And if [36:20] you're, you know, other things, I don't [36:21] know where where you go. Um, but they [36:23] kind of divide people up a little bit. [36:25] Um, and then at least for the developer [36:28] track, um, you for firsttime [36:31] contributors, you are paired with a [36:34] mentor. Um, [36:36] >> so every new contributor has somebody, [36:40] one person who has at least gone through [36:42] it and probably has gone through it a [36:43] couple times. Um, sitting with you and [36:47] like this is we're going to look for an [36:49] easy ticket for you to to work on. We're [36:52] going to like read up on what's needed. [36:54] We're going to find the line of code or [36:55] whatever. Uh, and then you make your [36:58] first merge request and um walks you [37:01] through the whole sort of process. And [37:02] the mentor is also there's like a [37:04] there's like mentor leads and all the [37:06] tables or whatever. So like you know [37:07] like when they have questions they go so [37:10] like there's there's a whole process and [37:11] I think that like that level of [37:13] one-on-one uh interaction like like [37:16] mentorship is really uh really valuable. [37:19] Um it's also something that gets tracked [37:22] on drupal.org. So like you like my [37:25] drupal.org or uh profile now says who my [37:28] mentor was at Drupalcon Atlanta and his [37:32] drupal.org board profile will show that [37:34] he was a mentor. Um, and maybe the [37:36] event, I don't know. Um, and then yeah, [37:38] like you you do your thing and then like [37:41] a lot of the stuff that I feel like [37:44] in WordPress is is standardized now, but [37:48] like maybe at one point in time was was [37:51] more like ad hoc or like at the uh like [37:54] for props and things. uh like all that [37:57] stuff is uh is sort of like built into [37:59] like how they've integrated with like [38:02] GitLab and things like that. Like it's [38:04] it's it's actually a pretty good like [38:07] it's far it feels far less like I don't [38:10] know chaotic and you're kind of left to [38:12] your own devices than uh than [38:15] contributor days that I've been to at [38:16] work camps. [38:18] >> Yeah. So, I think that's great because I [38:21] agree like when I was at the Dumal World [38:22] Conference and I met um uh Tessamiro who [38:27] was in charge um her and her partner at [38:30] the time uh were in charge of the Dumal [38:32] extension directory because I thought [38:33] that's what I wanted to do because I [38:34] liked you know uh learned very quickly [38:37] that was not the place for me. I I was [38:40] much better at the asking for money part [38:41] um than the looking at uh code quality [38:44] and standards and for plug-in [38:46] submissions, sorry, extension [38:48] submissions. Um but she sat down and [38:51] showed me the whole process and it was [38:53] way less uh intimidating. Uh that mentor [38:58] idea is great. I know that they started [39:01] kind of like a word camp mentorship [39:02] thing at word camp us. [39:05] Um, so there's definitely a lot of good [39:07] ideas that's going around at like Jumla [39:10] does this thing called pizza bugs and [39:12] fun. Uh, and that is like basically bug [39:16] squashing and, [39:18] >> uh, you can do it remotely or in person [39:20] and then you get some cash to, you know, [39:22] buy pizza or whatever. That's very easy [39:24] to join because somebody who's new can [39:27] just do the testing part or, you know, [39:29] whatever. Uh, it's very set [39:32] process-wise. I feel like there needs to [39:34] be good on-ramps for people who are [39:36] interested because I feel like it's [39:39] still the onus is still on the volunteer [39:42] to really push and I feel like that's [39:45] too bad cuz I feel like a lot of people [39:48] would give a couple hours a week if [39:50] there was just an easier on-ramp. For [39:52] lack of a better analogy, I feel like [39:54] when you show up to a contributor day, [39:56] it should feel like you're walking into [39:57] a church for the first time where [39:59] everyone is overly happy to see you [40:02] >> and they're going to do whatever they [40:03] can to make sure you have a great [40:05] experience. [40:06] >> Uh uh I don't, you know, I'm not not to [40:10] knock anything, but you know what I [40:12] mean? Like there's like [40:14] >> that that culturally, you know, [40:16] overwelcoming [40:18] culture. [40:19] >> Yeah. And uh I think we can all kind of [40:23] learn from each other and make best [40:24] practices. But that Drupal process [40:26] you're talking about sounds awesome. And [40:28] um uh at the end of the day, I think a [40:32] lot more there's a lot of ways people [40:34] can contribute. It's not just code. Um [40:37] uh and uh that's what I always try to [40:40] tell people is you can contribute to [40:43] projects in lots of ways. It's not just [40:45] sitting there working on code um or [40:47] documentation. There's lots of ways you [40:49] can use your skills and whatever that [40:52] may be. [40:52] >> Yeah, for sure. Um, so yeah, know [40:55] getting back to the the last part of the [40:58] very long question that was actually [40:59] three questions. Um, having come from [41:03] from Jumla, um, I'm interested in what [41:07] parts of Jumla you really appreciated. [41:11] Uh, well, Jumla, Mambbo, whatever. Um [41:14] and and what sort of you see as kind of [41:19] fundamental differences in like either [41:22] the approach or things that like like [41:24] yeah that are just different between [41:26] between Drupal or Jumla and WordPress. I [41:29] had I I was on a panel recently at Bad [41:32] Camp uh where we had somebody who had [41:34] experience with Jumla and me as the [41:36] WordPress guy and then um and then [41:39] there's a Drupal con so or camp so [41:41] obviously everyone else is understanding [41:43] things from a Drupal context and so it [41:44] was interesting having the conversation [41:46] about like how do each CMS kind of [41:49] approach things differently and I'm I'm [41:51] interested in sort of like your take [41:53] from particularly from being so embedded [41:55] in in Jumla. [41:58] >> Yeah. So I used to be on the board of [42:00] Jumla. Um well technically open source [42:02] matters which is the legal entity but [42:05] anyway we don't need to get into you [42:07] know governance. Um I think from a code [42:10] perspective what Jumla has that's really [42:13] interesting is [42:15] um [42:17] is they are not afraid to you know be on [42:22] beyond modern uh beyond modern code [42:26] bases and modern frameworks. Um, that's [42:29] also could be, you could argue be the [42:32] detriment to the project because, [42:34] >> you know, breaking BC has kind of become [42:37] a meme in Jublin. It's gotten better, [42:40] >> especially more recently. The it's very [42:42] easy to up Well, it's much less painful [42:45] than it used to be from what I [42:46] understand. Obviously, I'm I'm now using [42:49] it more as a hobby than as like a daily [42:51] thing, but um, so I think that's super [42:55] interesting. like Ajumla was the first [42:56] ever open source CMS to mandate PHP7. [43:01] Um and hosts hated us. [43:04] >> Like tons of hosts were mad. Hundreds of [43:07] hosts were upset. Um but the project [43:09] made that decision and because of that [43:13] it made it it pulled up the standard for [43:16] everyone else. Um and so it all we all [43:20] all the projects especially in the PHP [43:22] open source world. you know, affect each [43:25] other in different ways in ways that we [43:27] might not even think about. Um, [43:30] uh, so I I really like that about it. [43:32] Um, [43:34] what I like about Jumla is that the [43:37] governance is because I was there when [43:38] it was reorganized. Um, the governance [43:41] is very public. um you can see how the [43:44] government is set up and it's all laid [43:46] out and uh as far as how voting goes and [43:50] things like that similar to Drupal where [43:51] you can [43:53] >> join and get you know vote and things [43:56] like that. So, uh, I appreciated that. [43:59] But on the flip side, on the reorg, [44:02] Jumla became a very flat organization [44:04] and [44:05] lots of I've seen lots of stuff stall. [44:08] So, you know, where [44:11] other projects like Drupal and WordPress [44:13] have, I would say, more clear direction [44:16] because they have a lead and that has [44:20] that has significant benefits, too. So, [44:23] >> um, [44:25] it I'm just a, you know, my whole [44:28] philosophy is figuring out what makes [44:30] sense for open source in general because [44:33] I think the battle is not with each [44:37] other. Uh, it's with closed source [44:39] systems that um can hijack your data or [44:43] can, you know, handcuff you and make it [44:45] very expensive very quickly. And Shopify [44:47] is a perfect example of that. Shopify is [44:50] a great user experience. I'm not it's an [44:52] amazing user experience for a store [44:54] owner and it's very easy to enter but [44:57] then when you have success it gets very [44:59] expensive very quickly. Um and that is [45:03] where I feel like um we need to focus on [45:07] and there's been initiatives like this [45:09] um like uh [45:12] uh like there's all things open and [45:15] other like convent like open source [45:17] conferences where people try to come [45:18] together and share best practices and [45:20] things and um there's been nonprofits [45:23] like in Germany there was a nonprofit [45:25] called the CMS garden which had I think [45:27] 12 open source projects part of it Um, [45:30] so there's been initiatives and things, [45:32] but I feel like in every open source [45:35] project, there's so much tribalism and I [45:38] feel like it doesn't help anybody. [45:39] >> Mhm. [45:40] >> You know, being number one in WordPress, [45:43] that's amazing. WordPress is great. I [45:44] love WordPress. Uh, but does it is that [45:49] what's really important or is getting [45:51] more people onto the open web, [45:52] regardless of what that means, more [45:54] important? [45:55] >> Yeah. [45:57] Well, thank you, Mike, for coming. uh [45:59] that we're kind of at time at this [46:01] point. Uh but before we go, uh where can [46:04] people find you on the internet? [46:07] >> Uh sure. So you can find me on my [46:10] website, miked demo, uh.com. [46:12] Um mpmike onx. Um and that's where I'm [46:17] most active. And uh yeah, I'm also can [46:22] you can find me at hosting.com and [46:24] different webinars and things over time. [46:27] But um pretty much all my links from [46:29] miked demo.com will get you to all of [46:31] the socials and all of the things. [46:34] >> Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming [46:36] on. Uh it was a pleasure to have you on [46:38] the show. Uh and uh yeah, for everyone [46:42] else that is watching or listening to [46:44] this, uh we will see you on the [46:46] internet. [46:47] >> Thanks.