Community + Code Episode 17 - Tearyne Almendariz

Community + Code: Episode 17 - Tearyne Almendariz 🔗 **Source:** [Community + Code: Episode 17 - Tearyne Almendariz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2zZi5LG1f4) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [community, identity, accessibility, developer_advocacy] > author: Chris Reynolds > source: Community + Code Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2zZi5LG1f4 > date created: 2024-12-30 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Community + Code: Episode 17 - Tearyne Almendariz >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider non-alcoholic event alternatives for inclusive community building — 15:30 #community #inclusion - [H2] Implement board game nights as inclusive networking alternatives — 20:45 #events #networking - [H3] Apply accessibility lessons from temporary disabilities to web development — 24:15 #accessibility #development ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Community + Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2zZi5LG1f4) - [NLBC Works](http://nlbcworks.com) ## 📝 Summary - Interview with Tearyne Almendariz (Nine Lives Black Cat), longtime Drupal community member and former developer advocate - Discussion covers online identity formation, developer advocacy as "therapy for developers," and accessibility awareness through lived experience - Key themes include inclusive community building, temporary vs permanent disability, and intentional Twitch streaming community development - Emphasizes how personal experiences with accessibility needs (pregnancy, hearing loss) inform professional web development practices - Bottom line: Online identities evolve through doing before identifying, and inclusive communities require intentional design for diverse needs ## 📖 Main Content Tearyne Almendariz discusses her journey from accidental web developer to developer advocate to independent consultant and Twitch streamer. Her path began with Sailor Moon fandom leading to Japanese language learning, then website creation, eventually becoming a front-end developer in Drupal. The conversation explores how online identities like "Nine Lives Black Cat" become integral to professional personas, and how temporary disabilities (swimmer's ear, pregnancy) create lasting awareness of accessibility needs. Almendariz describes developer advocacy as being "a therapist for developers" - helping solve both technical and emotional challenges. She advocates for inclusive event planning that doesn't default to alcohol-centered activities, sharing examples of board game nights and mocktail options. Her current work includes technical marketing consulting and intentionally building inclusive Twitch streaming communities focused on co-working and mutual support. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=0) — Introduction to Season 2 - Key idea: Kicking off new season with longtime Drupal community member - Evidence: "Welcome to the first episode of season 2 of Community and Code" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=150) — Nine Lives Black Cat Origin Story - Key idea: Gamer tags become professional identities unexpectedly - Evidence: "Nine Lies Black Cat, which was my gamer tag, and I didn't realize that they were going to print it on my badge at Drupal" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=345) — Sailor Moon to Web Development - Key idea: Fandom interests drive technical learning pathways - Evidence: "I want to learn how to speak Japanese cuz Sailor Moon speaks Japanese... do you know what I found out? You can make websites about Sailor Moon on the internet" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=495) — Early Web Development Learning - Key idea: Self-directed learning through copying and modifying existing code - Evidence: "I remember when I discovered PHP... What do you mean I don't have to copy this same text from the website over and over again?" #### ⏱️ [12:00](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=720) — Developer Advocacy as Therapy - Key idea: DevRel involves emotional support alongside technical guidance - Evidence: "she said to me, it's like you get to be a therapist for developers... I have cried over code a lot and I would love to hold someone's hand through that" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=930) — Pregnancy and Non-Alcoholic Events - Key idea: Personal circumstances reveal exclusionary event planning - Evidence: "I couldn't say anything, right? And it's like, I can't drink this beer... I met a bunch of people that I would not have met if I had not had the picture of lemonade at my table" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=1125) — Victor Yoko's Inclusion Talk - Key idea: Alcohol-centric events exclude multiple groups from networking - Evidence: "there are people who yes they don't drink because they don't want to because pregnant other things but also how some people are alcoholics" #### ⏱️ [20:45](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=1245) — Board Game Night Alternative - Key idea: Inclusive events focus on activities rather than substances - Evidence: "every year the Drupal diversity inclusion initiative... we have um a board game night... If you want to order alcohol, you can. It is optional" #### ⏱️ [24:15](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=1455) — Swimmer's Ear Accessibility Lesson - Key idea: Temporary disabilities reveal permanent accessibility gaps - Evidence: "I lost hearing in this ear for like at least two months... that made me realize how much stuff on the internet is not subtitled" #### ⏱️ [26:30](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=1590) — Geriatric Pregnancy Identity - Key idea: Medical labels shape how others interact with patients - Evidence: "When you get past like 35 and you get pregnant... You have a geriatric pregnancy... that changed how people interacted with me" #### ⏱️ [30:00](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=1800) — BBS vs AOL Chat History - Key idea: Different entry points into online communities shaped experiences - Evidence: "I paid for a BBS subscription to a BBS before I paid for internet access" #### ⏱️ [35:15](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=2115) — Multi-User Shared Hallucination - Key idea: Early online roleplaying taught object-oriented programming - Evidence: "I learned object oriented programming through being a dolphin writer" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=2550) — Do Before Identity - Key idea: Actions and interests precede formal identity labels - Evidence: "I tend to do before I identify... I did not know that people paid people to make websites" #### ⏱️ [45:45](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=2745) — Intentional Twitch Community Building - Key idea: Deliberate cultivation creates inclusive streaming communities - Evidence: "I'm intentionally building this community of people that want to have fun and play games and be silly and also like want to get done" #### ⏱️ [48:00](https://youtu.be/B2zZi5LG1f4?t=2880) — Unfragmented Identity Integration - Key idea: Showing up as whole self models authentic leadership - Evidence: "I don't have to fragment my identity. Like I can show up as my full self and still be valid" ## 📚 References - [Community + Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2zZi5LG1f4) - [NLBC Works Consulting](http://nlbcworks.com) - [Twitch Stream](https://twitch.tv/nlifewackcat) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Online identities often form accidentally through gaming or community participation, then become integral to professional personas - Developer advocacy combines technical problem-solving with emotional support, acting as "therapy for developers" experiencing coding frustration - Accessibility awareness becomes real when experienced personally through temporary disabilities like hearing loss or pregnancy complications - Inclusive event planning requires intentional alternatives to alcohol-centered activities, such as board game nights with optional drinking - Building authentic communities involves showing up as your complete self rather than fragmenting identity across different contexts ## 📰 Newsletter **From Sailor Moon to Inclusive Tech Communities** Tearyne Almendariz's journey from anime fan to Drupal expert illustrates how passion-driven learning creates lasting technical skills. Her experience reveals key insights for WordPress developers and community organizers. **Key Takeaway:** Personal accessibility experiences inform better development practices. When Tearyne lost hearing temporarily, she discovered how many online resources lack proper captions - a lesson that enhanced her web accessibility work. **Community Building:** The Drupal Diversity & Inclusion Initiative's board game nights offer a model for inclusive WordPress events. By focusing on activities rather than alcohol, these gatherings welcome broader participation and create meaningful networking opportunities. **Developer Support:** Viewing developer advocacy as "therapy for developers" emphasizes the emotional aspects of technical work. WordPress community leaders can apply this by providing both technical guidance and emotional support during challenging projects. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Frame role as providing technical and emotional support to frustrated developers - Education: Create workshops addressing both technical skills and psychological barriers to learning - Developer experience: Ensure documentation includes accessibility considerations from lived experience - Community management: Implement inclusive event formats beyond traditional happy hours #### Community - Maintainers: Support board game nights and alcohol-free networking alternatives at WordCamps - Contributors: Create mentorship programs that acknowledge emotional challenges alongside technical ones - Sponsors: Fund accessible venue options and inclusive activity planning - Ecosystem: Cross-promote events that welcome diverse participation styles #### WordPress - Core: Integrate accessibility testing informed by temporary disability scenarios - Community: Develop meetup kits for inclusive, non-alcohol-centered events - Training: Include modules on accessibility awareness through lived experience - Accessibility: Promote understanding that disability needs are often temporary and universal - Meta: Ensure .org events model inclusive practices with substance-free networking options #### FAIR - Policies: Establish event planning guidelines that don't default to alcohol consumption - Governance artifacts: Create charters addressing community inclusion beyond traditional demographics ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Developer advocacy effectiveness increases when combining technical and emotional support - Inclusive event planning that avoids alcohol defaults increases diverse community participation - Personal accessibility experiences create more empathetic and effective web developers - Online identity integration (rather than fragmentation) leads to more authentic community leadership ### 📊 Methodology - Survey developers about emotional support needs during technical challenges - Compare participation rates at alcohol-free vs traditional tech networking events - Track accessibility implementation by developers with lived experience vs training-only - Measure community engagement with leaders who present integrated vs professional-only identities ### ❓ Questions - How can developer advocacy programs better address emotional aspects of technical work? - What event formats maximize inclusion across different community member needs? - How do temporary accessibility experiences influence long-term development practices? ### 🔮 Future Research - Effectiveness of therapy-informed approaches in technical mentorship - Impact of inclusive event design on underrepresented group participation - Role of personal narrative in accessibility education and implementation ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Integrate accessibility considerations based on temporary disability scenarios - Policy: Develop inclusive event planning standards that don't assume alcohol participation - Education: Include emotional support training in developer advocacy programs - Community: Create multiple networking formats accommodating diverse social and accessibility needs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th grade (conversational podcast format) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: YouTube video format with speakers visible - Improve: Add slides showing key concepts, identity evolution timeline #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format available - Improve: Chapter markers for key topics, audio summary highlights #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Conversational format with storytelling, personal anecdotes - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, definition callouts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Discussion of hands-on coding learning experiences - Improve: Companion exercises for community building, accessibility testing #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships in career progression - Improve: Decision trees for inclusive event planning, accessibility prioritization #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion, networking examples - Improve: Discussion prompts for community application, group reflection questions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on identity and career development - Improve: Self-assessment worksheets, personal action planning templates #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic community growth analogies - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about community interconnections ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Standard podcast format with clear speaker identification - Improve: Enhanced transcript with speaker labels, topic headings #### Keyboard navigation - Present: YouTube standard controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Timestamped navigation links in description #### Contrast and readability - Present: Video has clear visual contrast between speakers - Improve: High-contrast transcript formatting options #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available on YouTube - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, sound descriptions #### Standards reference - Meets basic WCAG 2.2 AA for media content with transcript availability ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of diverse online communities (BBS, AOL, gaming) - Improve: More international community examples, non-US tech experiences #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms, disability-first language used appropriately - Improve: Define technical jargon for broader accessibility #### Neurodiversity support - Present: ADHD experiences shared openly, accommodations discussed - Improve: Content warnings for pregnancy/medical discussions #### Representation - Present: Female developer advocate perspective, LGBTQ+ identity integration - Improve: Additional underrepresented voices in series #### Psychological safety - Present: Vulnerable sharing about career challenges, identity struggles - Improve: Explicit discussion of community safety guidelines ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Personal experience → accessibility awareness → better development practices - Inductive strength: Multiple examples of inclusive events → broader community benefits - Causal reasoning: Identity fragmentation → reduced authenticity → less effective leadership - Analogical strength: Developer advocacy as therapy effectively illustrates support role #### Fallacies - Anecdotal evidence: Relies heavily on personal experiences without broader data validation - Appeal to emotion: Pregnancy and disability stories may overshadow systematic analysis #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, vulnerable, encouraging with authentic personal sharing ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No indicators of DARVO patterns present - Discussion involves vulnerable self-disclosure rather than defensive positioning - Emotional content serves educational rather than manipulative purposes ## 🎯 Conclusion Tearyne Almendariz's journey illustrates how authentic identity integration and lived accessibility experiences create more inclusive tech communities. Her approach to developer advocacy as emotional support alongside technical guidance offers a valuable model --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] [music] [00:07] [music] [00:18] [music] [00:20] Welcome to the first episode of season 2 [00:21] of Community and Code. I'm Chris [00:23] Reynolds and I'm so happy to be kicking [00:25] off 2026 with this conversation with [00:27] Taran Almondarez. Taran is a longtime [00:30] Drupal community member, a friend of [00:32] mine, a former developer advocate, and [00:34] the human being behind the handle Nine [00:36] Lives Blackat. In this episode, we talk [00:39] about how online identities shape who we [00:41] become. We talk about developer advocacy [00:44] and how it's like therapy for developers [00:46] and how accessibility becomes real the [00:48] moment you need it yourself. And we talk [00:50] about why community events shouldn't [00:52] default to venues and activities where [00:54] alcohol consumption is assumed as a [00:56] default. We also get into Taran's Twitch [00:58] streaming and what it looks like to [01:00] intentionally build a community where [01:02] people can show up as their true selves. [01:04] If you haven't already, click the [01:06] subscribe button wherever that might be [01:08] uh in your podcaster to make sure you [01:10] get these uh updates in the podcaster of [01:14] choice or on YouTube or wherever you're [01:15] consuming this. Uh and without further [01:17] ado, here's Taran. Welcome to Community [01:20] and Code, the podcast where we talk to [01:21] the human beings behind the commits. And [01:24] today I'm talking to Taran Almondarez [01:27] who is a longtime Drupalista. I believe [01:29] that's the appropriate word. Uh who is [01:32] she's worn a lot of hats. I will say [01:34] that she's been involved in Drupal [01:36] community. Uh she's done developer [01:37] advocacy. Uh she's now currently working [01:40] as a uh as a consultant and that can [01:42] mean a million different things. Uh [01:44] welcome to the show Taran. Uh tell us [01:46] about yourself. [01:47] >> Hi Chris, thanks for having me. So yes, [01:48] I'm Taran Almondar. It is pronounced [01:51] like Karen with a T. I've done this so [01:53] many times I felt it like immediately [01:54] turn on. Right. Um right now I am what [01:59] all am I doing? So I am the owner [02:02] sloperator/founder slash I needed [02:05] something to put on the taxes. I own [02:07] NLBC Works which is a consulting firm [02:11] doing like technical marketing. Um, and [02:14] LBC refers to my name on Drupal. Nine [02:17] Lies Black Cat, which was my gamer tag, [02:20] and I didn't realize that they were [02:21] going to print it on my badge at Drup. [02:23] [laughter] [02:24] And uh, then my street name was out [02:25] there, but I've just been embracing it. [02:27] Um, I'm also a Twitch streamer. I'm also [02:30] a mom. I used to be very involved in [02:33] politics. [02:34] I I do a lot. I wear a lot of hats and a [02:37] lot of wigs. A lot of wigs. Yeah, [02:39] [laughter] maybe the metaphor is a [02:40] little bit different uh with with the [02:42] wig collection. Um tell me about uh what [02:46] drew you to Drupal specifically [02:48] originally or like maybe your your [02:50] origin story into tech just generally. [02:54] >> Yeah, I think that the origin story into [02:56] tech is going to be a little bit more [02:58] interesting because like like it is with [03:00] most people that are in Drupal, it's [03:01] like I needed a job and then there was a [03:03] job and I needed to learn Drupal so I [03:05] did it right. Um, come for the code, [03:07] stay for the community, as they say. But [03:08] in the background, you see how I have [03:10] like all this anime stuff? A lot of it [03:12] is from Sailor Moon. And what happened [03:14] is that when I was like 14, 15, I told [03:16] my parents, "Hey, mom, I've been [03:18] watching, hey, mom. Hey, Dad. Um, I've [03:20] been watching this show. It's called [03:22] Sailor Moon. And I just found out Sailor [03:25] Moon is from Japan." And they're like, [03:26] "Okay, that's cool." And I was like, "I [03:28] want to learn how to speak Japanese cuz [03:29] Sailor Moon speaks Japanese. That's why [03:30] her mouth doesn't match when she's [03:32] talking." Like, "Okay, um, here's some [03:34] books." And I was like, "Okay, cool." [03:36] So, I'm like teaching myself Japanese, [03:37] right? Because I'm just like, "That's [03:38] who I've been. That is who I've been my [03:39] whole life. I want to do a thing, I go [03:41] and do it." And then I'm like, "Mom and [03:43] dad, do you know what I found out? You [03:44] can make websites about Sailor Moon on [03:46] the internet. I want to learn how to [03:47] make websites." And they're like, "Okay, [03:49] um, here's a book on how to make [03:51] websites." And so that's what I did. So, [03:54] >> see, I never got a book. I just got a a [03:56] Geio Cities account and I was like uh [03:59] looking at like the source code of [04:01] everybody else's Geio Cities account and [04:03] then like copying blocks of HTML into my [04:06] site and then figured out eventually [04:07] that those things meant stuff. [04:09] >> Nice. I got to that point like uh in the [04:12] Neopets in MySpace era, right? [04:14] >> Yeah. [04:15] >> Yes. Yeah. [04:15] >> Yep. That was a huge part of why I [04:17] learned CSS. And I was like, "Oh my god, [04:19] I remember when I discovered PHP." I was [04:21] like, "What do you mean I don't have to [04:22] copy this same text from the website [04:25] over and over again? I can just have it [04:26] called? It'll just show up." I was so [04:28] proud of myself. So proud. [04:29] >> I had been when I learned that PHP was a [04:32] thing. M [04:34] >> I had been doing copying and pasting [04:38] like Pearl scripts and like CGI bin type [04:45] files. Like [04:46] >> I didn't know what any of this stuff [04:48] did. I just knew that like I could went [04:50] to a I could go to a website and I could [04:52] search for a thing. I'm like, "Do you [04:54] have anything that does this type of [04:56] thing?" And there would be a script that [04:58] came up and it was like copy and paste [05:00] this stuff and like change these things. [05:01] like, okay, I can copy and paste stuff [05:03] and change things. So, like when I [05:05] learned that PHP was like a language [05:07] that sort of kind of did that stuff [05:09] except like better, [05:12] >> it didn't require these weird libraries [05:14] that would break. I was like, "Oh, okay. [05:17] This is this is this is this is actually [05:20] sustainable. This is like this is like [05:22] something I can actually maybe do." [05:26] >> So, I know like I don't know. I'm trying [05:31] to think of. So, what is happening right [05:33] now is that my brain sees a camera in [05:36] front of me and knows that I'm recording [05:37] a thing and it's like, you need to ask [05:38] the next question. It's like, no, it's [05:40] your turn to get asked questions. It's [05:41] like, but we have to do something. We [05:42] have to do [05:43] >> I mean, you can ask me questions. I [05:45] usually I'm the one that asks questions, [05:47] but I'm I'm happy to toss it over to [05:49] you. I mean, obviously [laughter] [05:50] obviously we're both pretty practiced at [05:52] being the host. Uh Oh, yeah. talk about [05:55] uh so so yeah you uh I mean we worked [05:58] together once upon a time and again now [06:01] but uh previously you were uh kind of in [06:04] my role at the company that I am [06:06] currently at doing the thing that I do [06:08] at that company took my job [06:12] >> I didn't literally take your job [06:14] >> you didn't literally take my job is a [06:16] whole long [laughter] story but yes [06:17] >> um but like what drew you to that side [06:20] of of development because it's very [06:21] different than the actual like working [06:23] with people and clients and like uh and [06:26] and I've talked to like I talked to a [06:27] bunch of Devrils on the on this podcast [06:29] like so what what drew you and what do [06:31] you see as as sort of the extension or [06:33] the like where Devril fits in sort of [06:35] like developer experience? [06:37] >> I love this question. Uh so what [06:40] happened is that you know for me coding [06:42] is like solving puzzles right figuring [06:44] things out. How does this work? And the [06:46] thing that I really enjoy is solving [06:48] puzzles for other people in ways that [06:49] like help them to get what they need [06:51] done. Uh, it's why I really loved my job [06:54] when I was working at the city of Dallas [06:55] for their civilian retirement fund, [06:57] right? And I did that, but then I wanted [06:59] to do cooler things that were more [07:00] dynamic that would help more people. So, [07:02] I moved on to another job and then [07:03] another job after that. And I was at [07:06] Labot at the time and I was trying to [07:08] figure out like what's the next step for [07:10] me? [07:10] >> Cuz on a lot of teams that I've been on, [07:12] right, I was a front-end developer, [07:14] which was a whole different change from [07:16] like being a web master. And I know I [07:18] told you I wanted to talk about like [07:20] identities on the internet, right? [07:22] >> Um, so I became a front-end developer. [07:24] I'm solving all these problems, but I'm [07:26] also being the person that's kind of [07:27] like the business analyst hat. I should [07:29] have had a bunch of hats. Um, I also [07:30] have ADHD. That's a huge part of my [07:32] personality [07:33] >> raining back in. And I was like, okay, [07:36] what do I do next? And then Fatima [07:38] Khalin, um, who was a the developer [07:42] advocate before both of us. So, it's [07:44] like a chain of web deah. [07:47] >> It's a chain of developer advocacy, [07:49] right? Yes. Um, she's like, you know, [07:51] you might be interested in being a [07:52] developer advocate. And so, I was like, [07:55] oh, well, what is that? And she said to [07:56] me, it's like you get to be a therapist [07:58] for developers. And I was like, I can do [08:00] that cuz I have cried over code a lot [08:03] and I would love to hold someone's hand [08:05] through that. I'd like to be there for [08:07] them. [08:07] >> A therapist for developers. This that's [08:09] the first time I've heard it described [08:11] as that. Uh, I I I think I like that. I [08:15] don't know that I like the pressure [08:16] associated with being a therapist for [08:18] developers. [laughter] [08:22] >> It's like it's not you, it's the [08:23] semicolon. I promise. [08:24] >> Yeah, that's that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. [08:26] Yeah. Um, [08:27] >> you really feel about that commit. [08:30] [laughter] [08:31] >> Yeah. I mean, I I think I think that's [08:33] true. I think that's a that's an [08:34] interesting take. Um [08:36] >> uh I think that and obviously like so [08:39] Fatima um we uh we also have worked [08:42] together a little bit and I had her on [08:44] the Pantheon live stream which we can uh [08:47] link to in the show notes or whatever. [08:49] Uh um she's over at GitLab now and you [08:52] were at GitLab. [08:52] >> I was at GitLab with her for a while. [08:54] Yeah. It's like I'm following Fatima [08:56] everywhere she goes. I promise it's an [08:58] accident. [08:59] >> Yeah. Um but what what's uh [09:05] being there's a big difference between [09:08] because part of part of what Devril is [09:10] is also kind of um being the the public [09:14] face. Um [09:16] >> and uh we can talk about uh your public [09:19] faces uh because there might be plural. [09:22] Um, [09:23] >> was developer uh relations sort of like [09:27] an introduction or were you already kind [09:29] of out in the world with your face [09:31] plastered on things before becoming a [09:34] developer advocate? [09:36] >> That's a good question. I kind of was [09:39] actually like in small parts because [09:43] what happened when I went to my first [09:45] Drupal con is that I met uh this guy [09:47] named Kalem Harris. I actually uh have a [09:48] LinkedIn post about it. I'm going to [09:50] tell the story in small parts. So, I met [09:53] Khaleim at my first Drupal Con and he [09:56] explained, you know, if you want to [09:58] level up in your job, you need to get [10:00] out there and you need to go and like [10:01] give talks. And I'm like, I'm sorry, [10:03] what? Cuz before, like, I could not [10:06] order food for myself at a restaurant, [10:08] right? Like, hello. Um, [10:11] and I wouldn't make my dad order the [10:13] food until he was like, "You know what? [10:14] You're going to learn the skill." And [10:15] then he just kind of walked away. and me [10:17] and the person at the restaurant are [10:19] like [10:21] staring right. Um, but I wanted to get [10:25] better. I loved the work that I was [10:27] doing and how it was helping people and [10:29] I said, "Well, you know, I think I can [10:32] do this." There were problems that I [10:35] encountered and that I learned about uh [10:37] working for the city with regard to web [10:39] accessibility and I was like, I figured [10:41] out some of these problems. I know that [10:43] a lot of other people have these issues [10:45] and by me speaking up I can help other [10:49] people to fix their problems. So I did [10:51] my first talk it was called like [10:52] government issues and that is a short [10:54] version of the name that I will keep to [10:56] because I listen to a lot of fallout [10:58] while growing up. So it was a very long [10:59] title. Almost all of my talks have very [11:01] long titles but I did that at Texas [11:04] Drupal Camp. That was my first camp that [11:06] I spoke at and it was in a smaller room [11:09] and it was kind of scary but everyone [11:11] was really cool about it. [11:13] >> Um, so I did that I think three times [11:15] that year [11:16] >> and then I remember the reason why I [11:20] kept doing it is because not because [11:23] like of the attention that I got but [11:26] because people would come up and be [11:27] like, you know, thank you so much for [11:29] talking about that. I'm dealing with [11:30] this problem too and this gives me a way [11:33] to solve it or I tried this and it [11:35] didn't work for me, you know, or here's [11:37] something that I um tried and it didn't [11:40] it it did work. And I remember um [11:43] actually at one of my first Drupal Cons, [11:45] a Pantheon employee heard me talking [11:47] about how my senior developer at one [11:50] position that will remain nameless for [11:51] now um said to me, "Well, we have to [11:54] just back up our files manually because [11:57] you can't use Git. get is resource [11:59] intensive. And that Pantheon employee [12:01] was like, "No, that person's peeing on [12:04] your leg and telling you it's raining." [12:05] They didn't they didn't say like that, [12:07] right? That's my way. But seeing like [12:10] that being a developer advocate, maybe [12:12] that made the impression on me that you [12:14] could help people like both to know like [12:17] how to fix a problem and how to [12:21] navigate issues like how to know like [12:24] what is solvable and what is not and [12:26] like when's it time to push the ejector [12:29] seat. That's a ' 80s kid reference [12:31] there. But um that that really I feel [12:35] like that's what [12:38] uh inspired me to be in and stay in [12:43] developer advocacy for as much as I [12:45] could. [12:46] >> Yeah. [12:47] >> Yeah. I mean I think a lot of us uh [12:50] myself included have been doing the work [12:52] of developer relations for long before [12:54] we had the title of developer advocate [12:57] or developer you know evangelist or [12:59] whatever you're going to call it. Um, [13:01] and a thing that has come up a couple [13:02] times on this show this year has been um [13:06] I guess maybe last year when this uh [13:08] episode is being uh released um [13:11] >> uh is is the idea that um like speaking [13:16] as a way both to to overcome like social [13:19] anxiety and and things like that, but [13:21] also [13:22] >> see speaking as a shortcut for [13:25] introverts uh at an event. Because when [13:28] you present something at the event, you [13:29] don't actually have to start [13:30] conversations cuz other people will just [13:32] come up to you and start talking to you. [13:34] So you don't have to like super go out [13:36] and be outgoing and have and initiate [13:37] conversations because people will come [13:39] and talk to you instead. [13:40] >> So you're an introvert. [13:41] >> I am not personally although I'm a bit [13:46] more of an ambbervert I think these [13:48] days. Um, [13:50] >> but uh I definitely have always been [13:53] more well I mean I guess the thing is [13:55] like it's always it's weird like [13:57] >> I like being around people. I've always [13:59] been doing like like in high school I [14:02] was doing theater. I've always been [14:03] like, [14:04] >> you know, really social, but [14:06] >> um I [14:08] >> in in situations where I'm around people [14:10] that I maybe don't know uh or or an [14:13] unfamiliar situation, I'm very much [14:15] going to like stick to the walls and and [14:18] wallflower unless I'm pulled into a [14:20] conversation or or [14:22] >> or or if there if I have allies around [14:24] me, right? Um, [14:26] >> so, so like I mean, and and that's a [14:28] thing that I've that I've even like even [14:31] this last year too, like um it's a thing [14:33] that I've I've been working on when I [14:35] went to I went to Presconf uh last year [14:38] um [14:39] >> and I was going by myself uh and um [14:43] because no one else from Pantheon was [14:45] going. [14:45] >> Um and I knew that I would know people [14:47] there, [14:48] >> but I didn't I wasn't going with anyone. [14:50] So I didn't have like a de facto like [14:53] social group to fall back on even like [14:55] you know I kind of knew that there but [14:56] it wasn't like official or whatever and [14:58] [clears throat] um and so I just told um [15:01] Courtney Robertson who I'm hoping to get [15:03] on this podcast at some point. [15:05] >> Courtney, come on. Come on. Come on. [15:06] >> Um I just uh she's a developer advocate [15:10] at uh GoDaddy and I said I I said don't [15:13] let me wallflower. And so when I got [15:15] there, she just like made it her job to [15:17] introduce me to like every single person [15:19] and pull me over and like and that I [15:21] mean it helped and we like and and what [15:23] was really cool that came out of that uh [15:25] was um there was like a handful of us [15:27] that were either um vegan or one person [15:31] uh was um kosher. Um and [15:35] >> the the way that the event was set up is [15:37] like everybody kind of goes off off [15:39] campus or you know off off venue to go [15:41] out and get food. So, we just kind of [15:43] like had our own little vegan collective [15:45] um called which we called Veg Press. Uh [15:48] and we just like had [laughter] ate [15:49] lunch together and then sometime a [15:51] couple nights had dinner together and [15:52] like that was it was really cool because [15:54] to have that sort of like okay well I [15:55] know this is taken care of because like [15:57] there's a bunch of other people that are [15:58] in the same boat as me. Um which is also [16:00] like super valuable for for like pro tip [16:03] for anyone who's like like in that [16:06] situation like yeah find find your find [16:08] your allies, find your find your people. [16:10] I have a similar story to that which is [16:12] like I feel like this lens into the [16:14] identity thing, right? Where the way [16:17] that you identify or like parts that of [16:19] you that make up your identity end up [16:22] kind of determining like who you end up [16:24] being social with. So toward the end of [16:27] the first tent that I was at at [16:29] Pantheon, right, I was pregnant and I [16:32] was very early in my pregnancy and we [16:34] went to an event and most of what was [16:37] getting brought out was like there was [16:38] water Was there water? But then there [16:41] was beer. And I couldn't say anything, [16:44] right? And it's like, I can't drink this [16:46] beer. So, what ended up happening is I I [16:48] went and talked to one of the people at [16:50] the restaurant. I was like, "Hi, I'm [16:52] pregnant. No one at my job knows. Could [16:54] you please bring some lemonade out, [16:56] right?" And so what happened is that the [16:58] other people who did not drink either [17:01] for like health reasons, religious [17:03] reasons, or professional reasons, [17:04] whatever reason it was, I met a bunch of [17:06] people that I would not have met if I [17:08] had not had the picture of lemonade at [17:09] my table. So it's really interesting [17:12] like how that works out. [17:13] >> Yeah. I've I've not my partner and I [17:16] have stopped drinking a couple years [17:18] ago. [17:18] >> Yeah. And the last last year going to [17:21] events, it's been very interesting being [17:24] like previously I would try to I would [17:26] just not drink. I would just get water [17:27] and I would just be whatever. [17:29] >> Um but like this last year and because I [17:32] was going to a lot more events this [17:33] year. Um, [17:34] >> it was very interesting being the sober [17:38] the sober one in the room and and like [17:41] finding other people that are like also [17:43] not partaking of the the free the you [17:47] know open bar or like whatever drinks [17:49] are being and like also like finding [17:51] okay so going to places and like all the [17:53] parties are always at at bars almost [17:55] always at [clears throat] bars right so [17:57] it's always it's always a thing so it's [17:59] like okay uh how well has this [18:02] particular venue you planned for people [18:04] in my situation like do they have an [18:07] actual like mocktail uh list or do they [18:09] have or they just have like Yeah, you [18:12] can have a Coke. Well, I don't drink [18:13] Coke either, but like [laughter] you [18:15] know like I guess in a pinch, you know. [18:18] >> Yeah, I know. Uh this sort of reminds me [18:20] of another part of my identity, right, [18:22] for a while cuz time is wibbly wobbly [18:25] now. Um I was the lead of the Drupal [18:28] Diversity Inclusion Initiative and one [18:30] of the things that we made sure to do, [18:31] right? Because even at Drupal cons, [18:33] right, we're inclusive and things of [18:34] that nature. But [18:36] >> there are a lot of parties and in tech, [18:37] a lot of parties involved drinking. Um, [18:40] years before that, I had gone to see a [18:43] talk by a gentleman named Victor Yoko, [18:45] and he described like why it was so [18:47] important for reasons of like people who [18:50] don't want to drink, right? and he talks [18:51] about like how um I don't want to like [18:54] misquote anything but like there are [18:55] people who yes they don't drink because [18:57] they don't want to because pregnant [18:59] other things but also how some people [19:02] are alcoholics and by not offering a [19:06] non-alcoholentric opportunity you are [19:09] excluding somebody from a room um you're [19:12] excluding them from networking right to [19:13] be being able to contribute to your [19:15] project and that always carried with me [19:17] and so every year the Drupal diversity [19:20] inclusion initiative. Um, at Drupalcon, [19:23] we have um a board game night. Like, [19:27] that's our way of getting together and [19:29] hanging out, right? That's our way of [19:30] having fun. If you want to order [19:32] alcohol, you can. It is optional. And uh [19:36] it's it's been so great. This last [19:38] Drupal Con in Atlanta in 2025, we had it [19:42] at a uh like this little [19:44] hole-in-the-wall bar that was also like [19:47] a barcade, but they had plenty of like [19:50] mocktails, so everybody got to do [19:52] whatever they wanted to. And the thing [19:54] that brought us together to have fun was [19:55] just like all of the games that were [19:57] there. Yep. And it was quiet, too. So, [20:00] it's like we can choose. I know there's [20:02] a lot of people with sensory overload [20:03] stuff. So, Yep. Our identities bring us [20:06] together and drive us apart. I um that [20:09] reminds me of a um I was at a company [20:12] retreat many not many years a few years [20:14] ago [20:15] >> um for a company that I worked at before [20:17] Pantheon. [20:18] >> Uh and [20:20] >> you know at night after a day long of [20:23] like you know doing work sessions and [20:26] stuff in person. Um obviously we go to [20:28] the bar, we go to whatever and and get [20:31] together and hang out and drink. Um, and [20:33] I had a friend who um drank heavily um [20:38] >> several nights in a row and then got [20:40] completely trashed and the next day he's [20:42] like, "I'm not doing that again and I I [20:44] need to not do this again." And I was [20:46] like, "Okay, um well, [20:49] >> why don't I be your sober buddy? [20:51] >> Like, [20:52] >> you don't drink and I won't drink for [20:53] the rest of the trip and like I don't [20:55] have any particular reason to not, but [20:56] like I I can I will do this to make sure [20:58] that like you have somebody an ally [21:00] that's doing this with you at least." [21:02] Yeah. [21:03] >> And that seemed to help. And I think I [21:06] think that he's been sober ever since. [21:08] Oh. [21:08] >> Um, so I think I mean like it just takes [21:12] like somebody to to like just caring [21:16] about people like and that gets into [21:18] like yeah the the the substance abuse [21:20] thing where like [21:22] >> um like I don't I I wouldn't necessarily [21:24] characterize him as an alcoholic at the [21:26] time but he was conscious enough of the [21:29] sort of [21:30] >> I don't want to say destructive behavior [21:32] but like the consequences of [21:34] >> like his actions that he wanted to make [21:37] a choice to to do something different [21:39] and that he did and I like to think that [21:42] that I helped a little bit. Um but um [21:45] you know regardless I think he's in a [21:47] better place. Um, and that's awesome. [21:50] And like people have a million reasons [21:52] to to make those decisions. And I I [21:54] think that it's [21:55] >> it's always important, especially for [21:58] like event planning type stuff [22:00] >> to consider the full spectrum of human [22:04] beings because there's a lot of [22:06] different like [22:08] lot of different places on your journey [22:09] that you could be for a lot of different [22:11] things. [22:11] >> Yep. I know the reason why I ended up [22:14] getting so deep into accessibility. Um, [22:17] you know, I I knew, you know, everybody [22:19] knows like you see little thing, it's [22:20] like, "Oh, this is how to get parking, [22:21] right?" That's what it was when we were [22:23] kids. [22:23] >> And one summer when I was a [22:26] receptionist, uh, working for this place [22:28] that monitors like pool phones, like [22:30] it's a whole thing. But I was there and [22:32] as a receptionist, I'm like this with my [22:34] phone all day, right? [22:36] >> And I got swimmer's ear, [22:38] >> which I did not realize I could get if [22:41] you weren't swimming, but there we are. [22:43] And the thing about that was I lost [22:45] hearing in this ear for like a good [22:49] I want to say it was like at least two [22:51] months. And so I couldn't put you know [22:53] how I have my earbuds in today. I [22:55] couldn't do that. And if I wanted to [22:58] watch a video or tutorial or something [23:00] on YouTube, if I was not able to like [23:03] sit and listen to it like out loud, I [23:05] had to have subtitles. And that made me [23:07] realize how much stuff on the internet [23:09] is not subtitled. [23:11] >> Yeah. [23:12] And it it just I looked more into like [23:16] how do you do this? How would you even [23:17] get [clears throat] this going? And you [23:20] know, I had a disability temporarily, [23:23] >> right? [23:24] >> Right. [23:24] >> Most people do not realize like they [23:27] think like you're either born [23:28] able-bodied or you're born not [23:30] able-bodied. Right. And it's like no, [23:32] every so often like even pregnancy is [23:35] like uh determined as a disability [23:37] temporarily, right? And I can tell you [23:39] the way that my ligaments change because [23:41] of the chemical composition of things [23:42] flowing through my body. Yeah, that was [23:44] a disability. It was not fun. Um, also [23:47] the the heartburn that no one told me [23:49] about. Chris, [laughter] [23:50] >> I'm sorry for the heartburn that nobody [23:52] told you about. [23:52] >> They, you know, they tell you about, oh [23:54] yeah, you're going to get nausea and [23:55] it's like, okay, I can deal with that. [23:57] Just heartburn, relentless heartburn, [23:59] right? But [24:01] we're going to talk about being a mom in [24:03] a bit, but um you know there's all these [24:07] things that can happen to you either [24:09] long term or short term and it affects [24:13] your abilities, right? But it also [24:15] affects how you identify like how you [24:17] see yourself, [24:19] >> you know. Um, I [clears throat] know [24:21] like me going through pregnancy [24:25] that changed a lot of how I understood [24:28] my world, how my husband, you know, [24:31] showed up in our relationship. Um, I [24:35] saw alien, the alien movie Prometheus, [24:38] and when they like did the thing and [24:39] they tried to like she had to get the [24:41] alien. Spoiler alert if you haven't seen [24:43] it. [24:44] >> It's been like a long time, but spoil [24:45] it. [24:45] >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, in that [24:48] movie, like, first of all, I did not [24:49] know it was an alien movie. I freaking [24:51] hate aliens. I am terrified of aliens. [24:53] Like, we can talk about like, never [24:55] mind, I won't do it. I just don't. That [24:57] is my biggest phobia. But the alien like [25:00] put the baby inside of her or whatever, [25:02] right? And she's like, I don't want this [25:03] in here. So, she goes to the machine to [25:05] like get the C-section and like it's [25:07] C-section cuts her. And I'm like, no, [25:10] never want that. Nope. Never. Not at [25:12] all. And so in my care instructions on [25:14] the little whiteboard they had, they're [25:16] like, "What do you want us to have?" And [25:17] it's like, "Uh, no poking, no cutting." [25:19] And I did that on purpose because I [25:22] wanted people to ask like [25:24] >> it would make it so it's like, "Why? Why [25:26] is this up here? What does this mean?" [25:27] So that way I could be like, "I don't [25:29] want an epidural. I don't want to have a [25:31] C-section." [25:32] >> And you know what? I ended up with [25:35] >> an epidural and a C-section. And you [25:38] know, I had the greatest um OB/GYN [25:42] because you know uh TLDDR is that the [25:46] way that my body is shaped after like [25:48] after you don't have babies for like 30 [25:51] some odd years, right? This another [25:53] identity thing. Sorry if you're watching [25:55] this. I promise this makes sense. So I [25:58] am 38 this year. 38 this year. When you [26:01] get past like 35 and you get pregnant, [26:04] Chris, do you know what they label your [26:05] pregnancy as? Uh yeah. Isn't it like uh [26:08] I don't want to say like an elderly but [26:10] some some stupid [26:11] >> geriatric geriatric. [26:13] >> You have a geriatric pregnancy. [26:15] >> Yeah. [26:16] >> So this is the thing, right? And uh I I [26:20] was I had to get like special [26:23] ultrasounds, right? And it had to be [26:25] covered because I was at this age and [26:27] all these other things, right? Um and [26:31] that changed how people interacted with [26:33] me, how that pregnancy went. But because [26:36] I spent like so long not pregnant, my [26:38] body's like, I don't know. We have we [26:40] don't open this door. Like what? And I'm [26:43] sorry. Like hopefully if you're [26:45] listening to this, this is a part of [26:47] life. Whatever. Why am I apologizing? [26:49] And so my daughter like she was having [26:53] uh whenever the contractions were [26:56] happening, it was lowering her heart [26:58] rate. [26:59] >> And it's like I had to get over [27:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. [27:01] >> my fear so that she could be born, [27:04] right? I had to have the C-section. And [27:06] I think the greatest gift that my doctor [27:08] gave to me, right, was not trying to [27:09] push me into it, but um when I signed up [27:13] to meet with him, um I have ADHD and I [27:17] had also learned a couple years before [27:18] that that I have generalized anxiety [27:20] disorder. And I was like, what's g? So, [27:23] because he knew these things, he said, [27:24] "Hey, Taran, [27:26] I know that this is not the thing that [27:27] you wanted to do. This is what we need [27:30] to do, and I'm going to give you time to [27:32] process it." M [27:33] >> and you know just the fact that he stood [27:36] there holding my hand and he listened to [27:38] me. I was like I didn't want to do this [27:39] and he's like I know like I wanted to [27:41] like just have my baby naturally and it [27:43] gave me the time to accept you know yes [27:45] this is the thing I need to do in order [27:48] for this other person who is now like [27:50] the biggest part of my identity to be [27:52] here the person I've been waiting like [27:54] 30 some odd years to see. [27:58] >> Mhm. [27:58] >> So yeah. [28:00] >> Yeah. Well, that and that's a going back [28:02] to the original point too, like not not [28:04] to not to uh downplay your [laughter] [28:08] um but but the original point of of like [28:11] the idea that uh disability or [28:14] accessibility [28:15] >> needs are not for people that are [28:18] permanently disabled or permanently have [28:21] uh accessibility needs that it like I I [28:23] remember seeing a couple different uh [28:25] talks uh at like word camps and whatever [28:28] um talking about accessibility and [28:30] talking about the idea that like if the [28:32] sun is really bright and it's shining on [28:33] your phone and you can't read the text [28:35] on your phone, that is also an [28:37] accessibility issue. Like there's a [28:38] million there's a whole spectrum of of [28:41] things that that count as accessibility. [28:43] It's not just this one thing. It's not [28:46] just the handicap the car that you put [28:47] in your your car and the special parking [28:50] that you space that you have. I mean, [28:51] that's part of it, sure, but there's a [28:53] million different things that I can [28:54] apply to. um and and where we are is [28:59] different day by day. And I think that [29:00] that's definitely a thing that um is is [29:04] an important part of of understanding [29:06] how accessibility applies to uh web [29:09] development. The thing that that brought [29:12] me to the internet, that brought you [29:13] maybe to the internet. [29:15] >> Um a lot of us, a lot of the people that [29:17] might be listening to this. Um yeah. [29:19] >> Yeah. Okay. I kind of want to ask you [29:22] questions now. [29:23] >> Okay. you can ask questions. [29:25] >> Thank [laughter] you. So, I wanted to [29:28] talk about identity stuff, but I also [29:30] want to know like because we know each [29:32] other, but like were you [29:35] on AOL chat rooms back in the long time [29:39] ago days? [29:40] >> I didn't do AOL chat rooms. Okay. [29:42] >> I predated AOL chat [gasps] rooms. [29:45] >> What? [29:47] >> I did BBS's. In fact, [29:50] >> I uh I paid for a BBS sub subscription [29:55] to a BBS [29:57] >> before I paid for internet access. [30:00] >> What? [30:02] This is a thing. [30:03] >> Yeah. So, so there is a there is um I I [30:07] think so I first I first learned that [30:09] these things existed like uh through a [30:11] friend um and I would access things on [30:14] the library and then I saw that you [30:15] could like [30:16] >> oh you just need a phone like a like a [30:19] modem and then you can connect it to the [30:21] phone line and then you can dial this [30:22] number and it connects you to this like [30:23] chat room where there's other people and [30:25] there's like a network at the time of [30:28] these local like city-based uh BBS's and [30:32] different ES and so I went to the uh the [30:35] San Francisco one. [30:36] >> Um and and then eventually um because I [30:40] think server cost and whatever they [30:42] started charging um for access to their [30:44] um and also I think because it was part [30:46] of a network um so started charging for [30:48] access and so and it was like 20 bucks a [30:50] month or something. So, I was paying 20 [30:51] bucks a month to to connect via, you [30:55] know, telephoneep to this one specific [30:58] BBS server. Um, before I realized a uh [31:04] that you could do that over like I think [31:06] Telnet or something. [31:07] >> Yeah, I know. Tet. Yeah. [31:09] >> Uh, which I I learned later that you [31:11] could do that over TNET. Um, but at the [31:13] time it was like direct dial to the [31:15] server. Um, and I paid for that for at [31:17] least a couple months before I got my [31:18] actual first internet access. And when I [31:20] got internet access and I realized you [31:22] could just do that over TNET, uh, then I [31:23] was doing that all the time. Um, but [31:25] yeah, so I I never did AOL chat rooms [31:28] because I was in the old school [31:29] textbased like PBS rooms. [31:32] >> Oh, okay. Okay. So, and the reason why I [31:36] know about Telnet is because, okay, so [31:38] for my brain, right, the internet kind [31:40] of started with America Online [31:43] >> and then there was Earthlink. [31:45] >> Yeah. I had I had Earthlink. Um my [31:47] parents used America Online, [31:50] >> but I yeah I my the first thing that I [31:52] could and I think it was because it was [31:53] in like a like a PC magazine or [31:56] something. It was like you know for for [31:57] ISPs. I'm like okay this one I didn't [32:00] want to do AOL and I had a friend that [32:02] did CompuServe. [32:04] >> Um that's right. CompuServe. [32:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I was like, I don't [32:08] want to do either of those things. [32:10] >> And I I did figure out pretty early on [32:13] that you didn't need to because like at [32:15] the time AOL presented itself like this [32:18] is the only way you can access the [32:20] internet. This is this is the gateway to [32:22] the internet. You have to do it through [32:23] our weird browser application that does [32:27] all the things. [32:28] >> Um, and like no, actually actually [32:31] there's stuff that's already on your [32:32] computer, like a browser that can do [32:34] this. and your computer already has like [32:35] an email thing and like no. [32:38] >> Oh man, I remember getting Earthlink. [32:39] Yeah. And it's like wait, you can just [32:42] get online. [32:42] >> You can just do it. Yeah. [32:43] >> Oh my god. [32:46] >> I also I also did tech support. My my [32:48] first my first Okay. Was my first Yeah. [32:52] My second my second real job. My first [32:54] real job was retail uh after college. Um [32:57] and I I left retail uh because it sucks. [33:00] Uh [laughter] [33:02] and and and I did tech support because [33:04] like I'm a a nerd and I know computer [33:06] stuff and so I could probably do tech [33:08] support. Um and so my first tech support [33:10] job was for MSN. So again, [33:13] >> yeah, back to back to the dialup stuff [33:16] and like so it's like a different flavor [33:18] and like also MSN was awful but slightly [33:21] maybe less awful. I maybe I don't know [33:24] [snorts] maybe [33:26] um what was I going to ask you about? [33:28] Oh, so about TNET. I really want to talk [33:30] about Tnet because I never get to talk [33:31] about TNET, right? Um, so I know about [33:34] Telnet because when I was in the AOL [33:37] chats, right, I learned about roleplay [33:38] games and stuff, right? And I got to [33:40] play like games like, you know, Yasha [33:41] and stuff, right? Just making up my own [33:43] story lines with people cuz I loved [33:45] writing. And then I also love sci-fi [33:47] books. And I read all of these books by [33:50] uh Ann McCaffrey, the Dragon Writers of [33:51] Per. I've read like a bunch of other [33:53] stuff. But I when I think about it, that [33:55] is another reason why I got into code [33:57] because I joined the PE world mush. [34:01] >> Uh if people don't know what a mush is, [34:03] it's a multi-user shared hallucination. [34:05] It's a place where people used to go and [34:07] we used to do like roleplay and like [34:09] come up with characters and scenes and [34:11] like we had to like organize everything [34:13] and everyone. And I was a dolphin writer [34:15] as one of my characters. I had uh St. [34:18] Dis and Anastasian. They had like very I [34:23] got dragged once. I was like a [34:25] 16-year-old girl getting dragged for [34:26] because I would describe my [34:28] character's eyes as like emeraldics. [34:31] [laughter] [34:31] I found the forum post and then I showed [34:33] up and I was like, "Hi, it's me. Yes, I [34:36] know that I'm not really good, but I'm [34:38] trying to get better at writing." And [34:39] they're like, "Oh my god, like oh my [34:41] god, it's so great to see you here." And [34:43] it's like, "Yeah, yeah, I I saw it. I [34:46] just woke up." But there was that. But [34:48] as a dra as a I ended up being a dragon [34:51] rider and a werewoman. Um I was a gold [34:54] rider. So if you don't know about per uh [34:57] if a gold dragon chooses you, you are [34:59] going to be one of the people that [35:00] becomes a werewoman and that leaves an [35:02] area. And so I got to be like in [35:05] character as one, right? And I will [35:07] never forget like the day that like my [35:09] dragon hatched and like it touched my [35:11] mind in the game, right? And I was like [35:13] I got chosen and my dragon is so [35:15] beautiful. and she was uh the Gilded [35:17] Lily. That was her dragon description. I [35:19] think I still have it somewhere. If I [35:21] find it, I will send it to you for show [35:22] notes. [35:23] >> Yeah. Back in the day, [35:24] >> I learned how to code my dolphin. [35:26] >> Oh, nice. Yeah. [35:27] >> Yep. [35:27] >> I learned object oriented programming [35:29] through being a dolphin writer [35:31] >> back in the day like cuz all of that [35:33] stuff is text based. So, there wasn't [35:34] like Yeah. So, like it was uh we use [35:39] terms like multi-user shared [35:40] hallucination. Now, they're actually [35:42] like things that legitimately like could [35:44] be described as doing that for real. [35:46] >> Um, arguably SOAR is a multi-user shared [35:48] hallucination. But, um, [35:50] >> I like that. [35:51] >> Uh, but, uh, yeah, and there's [35:54] multi-user dungeons. There's MUDs. Uh, I [35:55] think there's a couple MUDs that were [35:57] operating out of the BBSS that I was [35:58] doing. But, [35:59] >> uh, yeah, that's that's that's that's [36:01] real old school. Um that I think that's [36:04] a that maybe is a segue maybe uh into uh [36:09] you mentioned earlier uh at the [36:11] beginning of the show that that you uh [36:13] are a content creator with capital C's. [36:17] Um [36:17] >> I guess so. Yes. [laughter] [36:19] >> Um talk about uh talk about doing that [36:23] stuff. I mean, I feel like that kind of [36:25] comes out of like an extension of, [36:28] >> you know, Devril is often kind of like [36:30] the face of of the company in very in a [36:32] lot of ways. Um, [36:34] >> and content creation is often part of [36:36] the work that we do, but like you're [36:38] doing it for like not just like [36:41] representing a company, but representing [36:44] yourself or a version of yourself. Like [36:46] talk about getting into that sort of [36:48] stuff more. Yeah, it's really funny [36:50] because um before I was on here, right, [36:53] Chris sent me a message. He's like, you [36:54] should apply to be on my podcast. I was [36:56] like, I don't know what would I talk [36:57] about. And he's like, "Whatever you want [36:58] to." And I'm like, "Okay." And as I'm [37:00] filling out the form, I'm like, "Wait, [37:02] should I be on here as Taran Elandares [37:05] or should I be on here as Nine Lives [37:06] Black Cat?" And then I realized, "Oh, I [37:09] do have something to talk about." like [37:10] just all the ways that identity forms [37:13] and is shaped by like for me [37:18] I don't identify as things first I do I [37:22] feel I want and then I find out [37:25] eventually that that's an identity right [37:27] um I did not know that people paid [37:29] people to make websites I remember that [37:31] I wanted to be a school teacher because [37:33] I wanted to help people and then I [37:35] learned how to code and people were like [37:37] you know people will pay you to make [37:38] websites for them I'm like why would [37:39] anyone do That that's weird. Um, and [37:43] going into Wait, I lost my thread. Hold [37:47] on. You got it. So, okay. So, I tend to [37:52] do before I identify and I lost it [37:56] again. Come on, dude. Okay. Hold on. Do [37:58] before I identify. [38:01] Your question to me was [38:04] >> uh getting into uh content creation. [38:07] >> Oh, yeah. Okay. [38:09] So I do before I identify, right? And I [38:13] when I lost my job at uh GitLab, which [38:16] is like a whole story, right? Uh you see [38:18] it on some other podcast, not this one. [38:20] Um but I lost that job and I needed [38:24] something to do. But I also realized [38:26] like a lot of what I had been doing or [38:30] how I was identified was by what other [38:33] people told me, right? Like they gave me [38:36] titles. They told me at one point [38:38] somebody was like, "You can just pick [38:39] whatever title you want." I'm like, "I'm [38:41] sorry, what?" And they're like, "We will [38:42] pay you money just and you can have [38:43] whatever title you want." And so I [38:45] actually had to think about what it was [38:48] I wanted to be called. Like what label [38:50] did I want to put on the thing that I [38:52] wanted to do for someone. Um, and then [38:54] when I lost that job, I was like, well, [38:57] I know that I enjoy teaching people. I [39:00] love being a developer advocate. I loved [39:02] putting together the materials and [39:03] facilitating trainings and stuff. And I [39:07] realized that with the skill set that I [39:10] had, I could do my own business. I could [39:13] run my own business. Like [39:15] >> often when I was working with people, I [39:17] was telling them, well, this is what the [39:19] problem is. [39:20] >> Like they would they would tell me like, [39:21] here's all these things that we know are [39:23] going wrong, but we don't know how to [39:24] solve it. [39:25] >> And so I realized like that's that's [39:28] what people call a consultant. Like [39:29] sometimes I will Google what is the [39:31] person that does this this this this [39:32] because being able to have a label and [39:35] being able to be like I I tell people [39:37] I'm a technical marketing consultant and [39:39] so some of them like for me I don't I [39:43] feel like saying technical marketing [39:45] together right tells people I help you [39:47] sell things but I'm helping you with the [39:49] technical side of this problem and then [39:52] consultant means I don't necessarily [39:54] work for you but I work with you [39:57] >> right those things communicate what it [39:59] is that I do and it gives a person an [40:02] identity that they can attach to it. [40:05] >> And so when I knew that I was going to [40:08] be unemployed for a while and that I [40:09] wanted to not like just jump into the [40:11] next job as I had done for like many [40:14] years, especially like being a mom, I [40:17] wanted to be able to define my own path. [40:19] I was like, "Well, there are people who [40:22] stream on Twitch and I watch Twitch [40:23] streams and [clears throat] [40:25] sorry [40:27] >> and [40:28] I can help them with things and I [40:32] already have like all this equipment [40:33] from when I was a developer advocate, [40:35] right? [40:35] >> I can stream. I've been streaming. So, I [40:37] just started streaming. I learned more [40:39] about like how to put setups together [40:42] and I started playing games with people [40:45] in between. So, um, so on Twitch, I am [40:49] Nine Lives Black Cat. I brought my name [40:52] back, reclaimed it, right? Um, I freak [40:54] out every time somebody Googles it and [40:56] they're like, "Holy crap, you work at [40:58] GitLab." And I'm like, "Do not mention [40:59] my real life in this chat ever again. [41:01] [laughter] Don't do it. I'm getting more [41:03] comfortable with it, right?" And I'm [41:04] going to talk about fragmented [41:06] identities, too. That would be cool. I [41:08] know we don't have a lot of time. Um, [41:10] but you know, I ended up doing content [41:15] creation [41:16] as a side effect of this is what I want [41:21] to do. This is what I want to give to [41:23] the world and to like the community. I [41:25] think that's why I'm so I'm still in [41:28] open source. I keep getting sucked back [41:29] into open source. Um, is because it's [41:33] not about like who I am. It's like what [41:35] I want to do and what I want to give [41:36] into the world. And so that's how I [41:38] ended up being a Twitch streamer. Um I [41:41] am what is it? I am the cozy crash out [41:43] co-working streamer. Like there's a [41:45] whole thing. And we have our bad luck [41:47] battalion uh in uh Nine Lives Black Cats [41:50] Twitch chat. I've actually been doing a [41:52] lot of stuff to prepare us for next year [41:54] this year when you see this because we [41:56] just hit 500 followers. Um which is big [41:59] to me, right? It's not like a big [42:00] number, but for me, I'm intentionally [42:02] building this community of people that [42:05] want to have fun and play games and be [42:06] silly and also like want to get [42:08] done. Like those are the core of like [42:12] the identity of the battalion and we [42:14] like to say that we make our own look. [42:16] So yeah, that's why I do content [42:19] creation. That's that's definitely uh a [42:22] far cry from like the traditional sort [42:25] of uh [42:28] be like launch a Twitch stream and get a [42:31] million followers and like you know like [42:33] intentionally building a community of [42:36] people that like [42:38] >> like like just building it with [42:40] intention, right? Like figuring out like [42:41] who you want who you want to be [42:45] >> uh include and who you and like [42:47] cultivating that. Um M [42:49] >> what sorts of things do you do to help [42:52] foster that community growth and and the [42:56] intention that goes into it? [42:59] >> I know I spend a lot of time thinking [43:01] about who are the people that need this. [43:05] Like [43:06] I know for myself as a person with ADHD, [43:09] having somebody that I can body double [43:10] with that helps me to get things done. [43:13] And I know that [43:16] I I don't do silent co-working, right? [43:19] Um I chat with them throughout it. Um I [43:22] keep people encouraged. I share, you [43:24] know, the struggles that I've been [43:25] through. I was diagnosed late in my life [43:27] with ADHD. Um I also spend time [43:32] like I'm not just working on my stuff. I [43:35] encourage the viewers to come and like [43:37] ask me questions. It's like, well, how [43:38] do I do this? you know, I am a streamer [43:40] and like that's sometimes against like [43:42] streamer etiquette to mention that you [43:44] stream. It's like if you're a streamer, [43:45] please come to me with a problem because [43:46] I love fixing problems. Um, and we will [43:49] fix things online. So, sorry, we will [43:51] fix things live. Um, sometimes people [43:54] will send their issues and then we try [43:56] to get that uh solved there. Um, to that [43:58] end, we use a co-working bot that it's a [44:01] super sweet bot. It's really cool. It's [44:03] set a pomodoro timer and it keeps us [44:06] focused and moving and it's really cool. [44:08] Um, one of the things that we're going [44:09] to be doing this next year, because the [44:12] nature of my work has changed, we're [44:13] doing like five hours of co-working from [44:16] like 10 am until 3 PM. And it used to be [44:19] when I was unemployed, right? We would [44:21] do two hours of co-working and then we [44:23] we would have like, okay, you finish [44:25] your task, you have two hours to like [44:27] play games, like you're rewarding [44:28] yourself because you ate the frog. Um, [44:30] now we're doing a change where and I [44:33] think that it'll work and if it doesn't, [44:35] we can always try something else, which [44:37] is important. Like when you get [44:39] perfectionism in your head, you got to [44:41] say those things out loud. Um, we will [44:44] be doing something where in the evenings [44:47] where we play gameplay, we're going to [44:49] acknowledge like here's all the people [44:50] that came and co-work today and here's [44:52] what they got done. [44:54] >> Like it's not just about games. Like we [44:56] we are all of ourselves. We're not just [44:59] gamers. we're not just people that have [45:00] jobs. Um, and it's kind of [45:04] it's it's kind of tracking along with my [45:06] journey and understanding that like I [45:09] don't have to fragment myself. I don't [45:11] have to fragment my identity. Like I can [45:14] show up as my full self and still be [45:17] valid. And I realized that that's really [45:20] important for me to model to the people [45:21] that are following me cuz like that's a [45:25] type of leadership too, being your whole [45:27] self. So, [45:28] >> well, I feel like that is an excellent [45:30] uh note to end on. Uh before we go, [45:34] Taran, where can people find you online? [45:37] >> Oh my gosh, pretty much all over the [45:39] place. [45:40] >> Where? A little bit. A little bit. Um I [45:42] am on Twitch TV. Twitch t [45:45] twitch.tv/nlifewackcat. [45:47] Um I'm also on Instagram under all those [45:49] things. So if you see nine lives on [45:51] drupal.org, yes that's me. Twitch, yes, [45:53] that's me. Instagram, yes, that's me. [45:54] Tik Tok. Yes, that's me. None of that [45:57] stuff is my fault. It is all of the [45:59] audience's fault if you see that. Um, I [46:01] am also at nlbcworks.com. That's my [46:04] technical marketing uh that we do. [46:06] Sorry. That's my technical marketing [46:08] consulting firm. It feels so weird [46:10] saying that. It's like this is the place [46:12] where I hung my shingle. And then I'm on [46:14] LinkedIn and I'm also on X. [46:18] >> Not that much. And I feel like I feel [46:20] like there is a there is some sort of a [46:24] what's it called? Um reality thing that [46:27] you were doing. Oh my god. Is that a [46:28] thing? [46:29] >> I have too many identities. Yes. Um I [46:32] have also been a contestant on these [46:35] live reality games. They are like an [46:37] amateur version of like the two that I [46:39] was on are Olympia which is kind of like [46:42] the challenge. Uh I am on season 3 of [46:45] that one. None of that is my fault. [46:48] That's all I had to say. And then I am [46:50] in season two of Destination Mole, which [46:53] is part of the Destination Adventures [46:54] brand where I am now one of the heads of [46:57] videography. Little I'll show notes. [47:00] There's too many identities. I'm so [47:01] sorry, Chris. I'm like hexadimal from [47:03] Reboot, right? Just [laughter] [47:07] right. Uh well, thanks again uh Taran [47:09] for coming on. Uh thank you all for [47:11] listening or watching this in the future [47:13] uh or in the past or whenever it is that [47:15] you're watching this. and everyone at [47:17] all. Uh, we'll see you on the internet. [47:19] Bye. [47:24] [music]