Community + Code Episode 18 - John Hawkins

Community + Code: Episode 18 - John Hawkins 🔗 **Source:** [Community + Code: Episode 18 - John Hawkins](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af20eIqYQpw) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, community, agency-life, devrel, meetups, word-camp, recurring-revenue, vegas-geek] > author: Chris Reynolds > source: Community + Code Podcast > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af20eIqYQpw] > date created: 2025-01-26 17:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Community + Code: Episode 18 - John Hawkins on WordCamps, Agency Life, and the Power of Connection >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Build recurring revenue streams into all client projects — core business sustainability strategy #business - [H2] Schedule regular peer connection time to avoid isolation — weekly automation chat example at 15:30 #community - [H3] Teach something at local meetups to build lasting connections — plugin development presentation impact #speaking ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Vegas Geek](https://vegasgeek.com) - [Community + Code Podcast](https://communityandcode.com) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Conversation between Chris Reynolds and John Hawkins about WordPress community involvement, agency evolution, and sustainable business practices - **Why it matters**: Shows how community participation creates long-term career opportunities and business relationships beyond measurable ROI - **Key stakeholders**: WordPress agencies, solo developers, community organizers, WordCamp participants - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Heavy travel/speaking schedule vs. sustainable business growth, recurring revenue vs. project-based work - **Bottom line takeaway**: WordCamps generate "return on connection" rather than direct ROI, and recurring revenue models provide essential business stability ## 📖 Main Content John Hawkins (Vegas Geek) discusses his journey from corporate employee to agency founder to solo developer, emphasizing how WordCamp presentations and community involvement shaped both his and others' careers. The conversation explores the intangible benefits of conference participation, the evolution from project-based to recurring revenue models, and strategies for maintaining professional connections while avoiding isolation. Hawkins shares practical lessons about hosting services, retainer agreements, and the importance of teaching others as a relationship-building strategy. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Career Impact Story - Key idea: Single WordCamp presentation inspired Chris Reynolds to transition from designer to plugin developer - Evidence: "You gave a presentation on plugin development... just opening that door was enough to set me on a path" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=135) — [H2] The Power of Teaching Small Things - Key idea: You don't need to be an expert to provide valuable knowledge to others - Evidence: "You don't have to be an expert... there's all these people that are right below where you're at wishing they were at your level" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=270) — [H1] Nine Seeds Agency and WordCamp Strategy - Key idea: Agency used WordCamp touring as primary marketing strategy instead of traditional advertising - Evidence: "I think the way that we advertise is we go to as many word camps as we possibly can" #### ⏱️ [06:45](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=405) — [H2] WordCamp Travel Logistics and Recovery - Key idea: Conference travel requires strategic scheduling for recovery and follow-up - Evidence: "I learned a lot... schedule either come back on Saturday... you've got Sunday to kind of recoup" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=500) — [H2] Competition vs. Collaboration Mindset - Key idea: Other agencies are "everybody and nobody" as competition depending on project scale - Evidence: "WebDev Studios was doing these gigantic projects. That wasn't us... the three to five to $7,000 project, we were crushing those" #### ⏱️ [10:15](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=615) — [H1] WordPress Discovery and Early Community - Key idea: Found WordPress three months after launch, attracted by ease and community support - Evidence: "There was a community that I could ask questions to and get answers from, like that was so far ahead of where some of the other ones were" #### ⏱️ [13:45](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=825) — [H1] Return on Connection vs. ROI - Key idea: WordCamps don't generate direct leads but create long-term relationship value - Evidence: "I don't think it's ROI, right? It's ROC. It's return on connection" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=930) — [H2] Virtual Peer Connection During Isolation - Key idea: Regular peer meetings provide essential learning and knowledge sharing - Evidence: "We picked a day of the week and once a week... just started meeting and just talking and learning and sharing" #### ⏱️ [18:00](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=1080) — [H2] Value of Structured Peer Learning - Key idea: Designated time for professional conversations prevents weeks of isolation - Evidence: "There's so much value here... without talking to anybody, without having any meaningful conversations where you are learning something" #### ⏱️ [20:30](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=1230) — [H3] Brand Separation Strategy - Key idea: Separating personal identity from business brand allows for different content types - Evidence: "Vegas Geek is the brand... Vegas Geek is growing and it's turning into a little thing that isn't me" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=1515) — [H1] Recurring Revenue Lessons - Key idea: Biggest mistake was not building recurring revenue from the start - Evidence: "Early on... bring a client in, do their project, push them out the door... I hate that now" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=1725) — [H2] Hosting as Maintenance Service Strategy - Key idea: Position hosting as free add-on to premium maintenance service - Evidence: "I'll host your site for absolutely free... while you're with me, you are always paying a maintenance fee" #### ⏱️ [32:00](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=1920) — [H2] Retainer Benefits for Client Relationships - Key idea: Retainers keep you in regular contact and top-of-mind for future projects - Evidence: "Every month they have to send you something... they're thinking about you at least every 30 days" #### ⏱️ [34:30](https://youtu.be/Af20eIqYQpw?t=2070) — [H3] WordCamp ROI Justification Challenges - Key idea: Solo practitioners must carefully evaluate conference costs without company sponsorship - Evidence: "I don't have somebody footing the bill... I really have to now consider it" ## 📚 References - [Vegas Geek](https://vegasgeek.com) - [Nine Seeds Agency](https://archived-agency-reference) - [WordCamp organizing guidelines](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/) - [WordPress meetup resources](https://www.meetup.com/pro/wordpress/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WordCamps create valuable long-term professional relationships that generate business opportunities over years rather than immediate leads - Teaching others at conferences and meetups builds lasting connections even when sharing basic knowledge rather than expert-level insights - Recurring revenue models through maintenance and hosting services provide essential business stability compared to project-only approaches ## 📰 Newsletter **Community Connections Drive Long-term WordPress Success** John Hawkins shares how a simple WordCamp presentation launched Chris Reynolds' plugin development career, illustrating the power of community teaching. Key takeaway: you don't need expert status to provide valuable knowledge to others. For agencies and solo developers, Hawkins emphasizes building recurring revenue through maintenance services rather than one-off projects. His strategy: offer "free" hosting bundled with premium monthly maintenance to ensure ongoing client relationships. The conversation highlights how "return on connection" from WordCamps creates lasting business value beyond measurable ROI, especially important as in-person events return post-COVID. Resources: [WordCamp Central](https://central.wordcamp.org/), [Meetup Organizer Handbook](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/meetup-organizer/), [Plugin Developer Handbook](https://developer.wordpress.org/plugins/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Share "you already know enough" message at meetups and conferences - Education: Create beginner-friendly content that bridges functions.php to plugin development - Developer experience: Document recurring revenue models for developer businesses - Community management: Facilitate peer connection groups for isolated developers - Developer marketing: Emphasize "return on connection" metrics over direct lead generation #### WordPress - Community: Support virtual and hybrid meetup formats for ongoing engagement post-COVID - Documentation: Create business sustainability guides for WordPress professionals - Meetups: Provide templates for peer learning groups and accountability partners - WordCamps: Develop ROI/ROC measurement frameworks for sponsors and speakers - Training: Include business development lessons in developer educational content #### Community - Maintainers: Create pathways for community members to share knowledge at appropriate levels - Contributors: Recognize teaching and mentoring as valuable community contributions - Sponsors: Measure long-term relationship value alongside immediate lead generation - Ecosystem: Connect isolated solo developers with peer support networks ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordCamp presentations by non-experts generate more career impact than expert-level talks for audience members - Recurring revenue models reduce agency cash flow anxiety and improve client relationship longevity - Regular peer connection meetings prevent professional isolation for solo developers - Conference ROI improves when measured over 3-5 year timeframes rather than quarterly metrics ### 📊 Methodology - Survey WordCamp attendees 1-3 years post-event about career impact from beginner-level presentations - Compare cash flow stability between project-only vs. recurring revenue agencies over 24 months - Track professional development outcomes for developers in peer groups vs. isolated work - Analyze sponsor lead attribution across multiple year timeframes for conference participation ### ❓ Questions - How can WordCamps better support solo developer attendance when companies aren't sponsoring? - What's the optimal ratio of recurring revenue to project revenue for sustainable agencies? - How do virtual peer connections compare to in-person meetups for professional development? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term career trajectory analysis for WordCamp participants vs. non-participants - Business model evolution patterns in WordPress agencies pre/post-COVID - Virtual community engagement effectiveness compared to in-person WordPress events ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Encourage junior developers to speak at meetups; implement recurring revenue streams early - **Policy**: WordCamp sponsor measurement should include multi-year relationship tracking - **Education**: Business development should be core curriculum for WordPress professionals - **Funding**: Consider micro-sponsorships for solo developer conference attendance - **Community**: Facilitate peer connection groups as essential professional development infrastructure ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Conversational format with clear speaker identification - Improve: Add agency evolution timeline, recurring revenue model diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format with natural conversation flow - Improve: Chapter markers for key topics, transcription with emphasis markers #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich analogies (Grateful Dead tour), clear definitions of business terms - Improve: Glossary of agency/business terminology, more detailed explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable advice with specific implementation steps - Improve: Checklists for recurring revenue setup, conference ROI tracking worksheets #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between community involvement and business success - Improve: ROI calculation frameworks, decision trees for business model choices #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion with relationship building emphasis - Improve: Discussion prompts for peer groups, community engagement templates #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection opportunities on career development paths - Improve: Self-assessment tools for business model evaluation, journaling prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Business ecosystem thinking, community as natural network - Improve: WordPress ecosystem mapping, sustainable business practice connections ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, speaker identification - Improve: Add ARIA roles for dialogue sections, detailed alt text for any future visual elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls accessible - Improve: Skip-to-content links for transcript sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Transcript meets minimum contrast requirements - Improve: Ensure transcript formatting maintains readability at 200% zoom #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive transcript layout - Improve: Test transcript readability across device sizes #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Timed captions for video version, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard podcast subscription interfaces - Improve: Accessible contact forms for guest suggestions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused WordPress community perspective - Improve: Include international WordCamp examples, global agency models #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional tone avoiding gendered assumptions - Improve: Acknowledge different business cultural approaches, avoid US-centric business terminology #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear conversation structure with topic transitions - Improve: Content warnings for business anxiety discussions, visual conversation structure #### Representation - Present: Two male WordPress professionals sharing experiences - Improve: Include diverse agency owner perspectives, varied business model examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Honest discussion of business challenges and failures - Improve: Normalize different career paths, address imposter syndrome directly ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Sound reasoning from community involvement to career outcomes - Inductive strength: Strong pattern recognition from multiple WordCamp examples - Causal reasoning: Clear connection between recurring revenue and business stability - Analogical strength: Effective use of "return on connection" vs. ROI framework #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful community participants, may miss failed attempts - Anecdotal evidence: Heavy reliance on personal experiences without broader data validation - Post hoc reasoning: Assumes community involvement caused success rather than correlation #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, supportive, experienced professional sharing lessons learned ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on individuals or groups - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive, encouraging tone throughout discussion ## 🎯 Conclusion The conversation demonstrates how WordPress community involvement creates compound career benefits through relationship building rather than direct business generation. Hawkins' experience shows that teaching others (regardless of expertise level) and maintaining regular professional connections are essential for sustainable freelance and agency success. The shift --- ## Full Transcript [00:19] I credit my next guest on Community Code [00:22] as being the person responsible for the [00:24] bulk of my WordPress career. And so I'm [00:26] thrilled to be introducing you to John [00:28] Hawkins, who you might know online as [00:30] Vegas Geek. He's one of those WordPress [00:33] community members who's been around long [00:35] enough to have accidentally changed [00:38] people's careers, including mine. In [00:41] this episode, we get into the weird math [00:44] of word camps, the stuff you can't [00:45] measure. hallway conversations, after [00:48] parties, teaching one small thing on a [00:51] stage and how those things can end up [00:53] shaping your entire trajectory years [00:55] later. We also talk about Zoom fatigue [00:59] and why he is building in a sustainable [01:01] agency that doesn't depend on the panic [01:04] of next month's pipeline. If you ever [01:07] wondered whether showing up is worth it [01:09] or if you're building things alone and [01:11] starting to feel isolated, this one's [01:13] for you. Welcome to Community and Code, [01:15] the podcast where we talk to the human [01:16] beings behind the commits. I'm here [01:19] today with my friend John Hawkins. Uh [01:22] John is a very longtime WordPress [01:24] developer. Uh you ran your own agency, I [01:28] think, for a while. Uh done lots of [01:30] things. Um and I'm just so glad to have [01:34] you on the podcast. Welcome. Uh, welcome [01:36] John. [01:37] >> Thanks Chris, man. It's been a long time [01:39] since we've chatted even in, uh, [01:41] >> it has been. Yeah. [01:42] >> Good to catch up. For sure. [01:43] >> Yeah, for sure. So, uh, I'm going to [01:46] start by sharing the story and we've [01:49] talked about this before, too. Um, one [01:52] of the reasons why I'm really, uh, [01:53] excited to have you on, uh, the show is [01:56] because, um, it was a presentation that [01:58] you gave at, uh, Word Camp Salt Lake [02:01] City. I think it was Salt Lake City. Um, [02:04] I think it was when it was Salt Lake [02:05] City and not Utah because there was a [02:07] year when it was Word Camp Utah. Um, it [02:09] might have even been Word Camp Utah. It [02:11] might have been that first that last [02:12] year it was Word Camp Utah, but you gave [02:14] a presentation on plug-in development. [02:16] Um, and basically it was like, [02:18] >> "Hey, if you're doing stuff in your [02:20] themes functions.php file, you know [02:24] enough stuff to write a plugin and maybe [02:26] you should think about just writing a [02:28] plugin and, you know, branching out." [02:31] Um, and I was doing things in [02:33] functions.php files and I had never [02:35] thought of myself at the up up to that [02:37] point I had still uh considered myself a [02:42] uh web designer. I would did not [02:44] consider myself a developer. Um and uh [02:48] just just opening that door was enough [02:51] to set me on a path uh to become to like [02:54] go really really deep into the [02:56] engineering of of WordPress and plug-in [02:58] development and things. Um that I mean [03:01] that that says a lot for for your [03:03] presentation. It says a lot about word [03:06] camps about like the effect that they [03:07] can have. Um, so I'm I'm yeah I'm super [03:10] excited to have you on uh because I I I [03:13] I love that story. Like I love I love [03:16] being able to share that like that like [03:18] uh like the you know one of the reasons [03:23] why I got back involved why I got [03:24] involved in speaking and uh doing [03:27] documentation and things like that was [03:28] also because of that because because you [03:31] inspired me. Uh, I'll tell you the first [03:34] time you told me that story, um, like it [03:38] just hit me like a ton of bricks. Like [03:39] it was it was so awesome. Uh, [03:42] you know, we now all these years later, [03:45] right, you've spoke at many events and [03:47] blah blah blah. You, you know, you're up [03:49] on stage and you you're thinking like, I [03:51] I sure hope I'm putting out something [03:53] that somebody's going to connect with [03:55] and maybe find useful. And so [03:58] >> that was just such a powerful [04:01] >> like hey this stuff means something like [04:04] you know and you know I ran I ran our [04:07] WordPress meetup here in Vegas for many [04:09] many years and I would always tell [04:12] people like hey you should you should [04:14] come and speak and they're like oh no no [04:15] no I'm no expert. I you know I'm always [04:19] telling them you don't have to be an [04:21] expert. you're here and there's all [04:23] these people that are right below where [04:24] you're at wishing they were at your [04:27] level. Like that's [04:29] >> that knowledge that you have is just [04:31] it's so great and you just pass that on [04:33] and it lights a spark in somebody and [04:36] then you know [04:37] >> you didn't think you were a plug-in [04:39] developer, but you were totally you [04:41] already were like I I didn't do [04:43] anything. I didn't make you a developer [04:45] all you know I just turned apparently I [04:48] just turned that light on and you're [04:49] like ah that connects. So yeah, awesome. [04:52] >> Yeah. Well, and it's also like [04:54] >> not like from from the perspective of of [04:57] uh also being involved in meetups here [04:59] and and organizing Word Camp Salt Lake [05:02] City myself, like it's it doesn't matter [05:04] necessarily for you to be an expert. [05:07] Like nobody is an expert. And there's [05:10] like I feel like there's this [05:11] conversation that I've had about like [05:13] the difference between a junior [05:14] developer and a senior developer. And [05:16] like the difference is really [05:19] the difference is more that the junior [05:20] developer thinks they need to know [05:22] everything and a senior developer knows [05:24] that they don't know everything like and [05:26] that's the difference. [05:28] >> Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. [05:29] >> Because there's so much time that you [05:30] spend uh building yourself up and and [05:33] and and feeling inferior and having [05:36] imposter syndrome and like I can't do [05:37] that or like the stories that you tell [05:39] because you're new or whatever. But like [05:42] >> no, in reality like those are just [05:43] that's just a story that you're telling [05:45] yourself. [05:46] I'm 30 years into this and I'm still Am [05:49] I a junior developer? Yeah, probably. I [05:52] don't know. [05:53] But that's just how I feel because uh [05:55] you know I think the I think that uh [05:58] that senior developer level isn't so [06:01] much about what you know. It's knowing [06:04] who to ask and knowing where to find [06:06] solutions. [06:07] >> That's it. That's it. [06:11] >> Yeah, for sure. I totally agree. Um [06:14] well, let's go back into sort of the the [06:17] origin story um a little bit when when [06:20] you presented at uh Word Camp Utah. I'm [06:24] just going to say that it was Utah. Um [06:28] >> it was in Utah. [06:29] >> It was definitely in Utah for sure. [06:32] >> In Utah. [06:34] Um, uh, when you presented, you were, I [06:38] believe, one of two, uh, members of the [06:40] agency you were running at the time, [06:42] Nine Seeds. I think it was just you two, [06:44] right? And I think that that was the [06:46] year where you had just decided to go, [06:49] uh, word camp hopping. [06:51] >> Um, [06:51] >> yeah. [06:52] >> So, so, so talk about, uh, talk about [06:55] 9C's. Talk about getting, uh, that sort [06:57] of up and running. And then also the [06:59] experience of of kind of doing uh a [07:02] Grateful Dead experience uh touring uh [07:05] all the different word camps. [07:07] >> You couldn't have put that better. That [07:08] was spot on. Uh sleeping on people's [07:11] couches like the whole works. Um, yeah. [07:14] So, we I mean I was in a corporate job [07:17] right before while I was kind of really [07:20] diving into uh WordPress itself and I'd [07:23] been using it for a few years and I just [07:26] my I say that uh at that corporate job I [07:29] worked there 10 years. Nine years were [07:31] amazing. Last year I would have chewed [07:34] my arm off to get out of there. And then [07:36] we we ran Word Camp Vegas that first [07:41] year, the very first year. [07:43] >> And it was very much a light bulb moment [07:45] like, "Oh, wait. There's like I can [07:47] maybe do something else aside from that [07:49] other thing." And [07:51] >> uh so it was me and my buddy Todd and [07:52] then Shane Sanderson. Uh the three of [07:54] us, we we all basically quit our jobs [07:57] and just started Nine Seeds. And um you [08:01] know, I think that the uh the idea of [08:03] like traditional advertising, like [08:06] trying to do Google ads or like running [08:09] ads anywhere, like just never really [08:11] felt like what we wanted to do. And I [08:15] really loved the community aspect of [08:19] just going to like a word camp and [08:21] meeting people and chitchatting. Like I [08:23] had so many great conversations just [08:25] that first year, even while I was [08:27] running around like a madman. uh just [08:29] trying to organize that first event. I [08:31] still had so many great conversations [08:33] with people that I'm like, I don't think [08:36] we should advertise. I think the way [08:38] that we advertise is we go to as many [08:42] word camps as we possibly can. We speak [08:45] and we sponsor at as many word camps as [08:47] we possibly can and we just keep doing [08:50] it. We just keep doing it. And we went [08:53] to like that first year. The first year, [08:55] it wasn't really the first year. The [08:57] first year was pretty mellow. Like we [08:59] probably went to, you know, a handful, [09:01] but like the second year, um, I don't [09:04] know if you know this, but what I did [09:07] Word Camp Phoenix and Word Camp New York [09:10] in the same weekend. [09:12] >> Oh jeez. [09:13] >> Yeah. Those are not two cities that are [09:15] close together. [09:16] >> No. No. [09:17] >> Just so you know. Yeah. And but I I had [09:20] already agreed to do Phoenix and New [09:23] York says, "Hey, you know, would you [09:24] like to come and speak?" And I'm like, [09:25] "Well, I'm not going to miss New York. [09:26] That sounds like a pretty huge [09:28] >> event. [09:29] >> Yeah. [09:29] >> And it was. It was amazing. And I again [09:32] I just met so many people. [09:34] >> And that was really our entire [09:37] advertising [09:39] idea. Like that's how we wanted to do [09:41] it. And um I've always been I love [09:44] teaching people and I've always felt [09:46] like when you teach somebody something, [09:48] they remember that and they love you [09:50] forever for it. And that's what we [09:53] found. We would just go from town to [09:55] town to town and speak and talk and [09:59] chitchat and go to the afterparties and [10:01] hang out and [10:03] >> yeah, it was great. It's fantastic. [10:06] >> And and like word camps are uh often not [10:12] close together as as evidenced by [10:13] Phoenix and New York. [10:15] >> Uh there the travel is not necessarily [10:18] cheap. Um, and and the time to to get [10:21] there and the time that you're there and [10:23] then then like the sort of uh [10:25] >> like I mean I I feel like I have like a [10:28] little bit of a hangover on my on my way [10:30] back home from from a word camp. So like [10:33] how I'm assuming that you were still [10:36] able to work, but like obviously like [10:38] there's all these different factors. [10:39] Like how did that factor into that sort [10:41] of like uh whirlwind tour of the United [10:45] States via WordPress? [10:46] >> Well, it was easy. We weren't making any [10:48] money at the time so all we could do now [10:51] it was it is it's challenge. Yeah. Um [10:55] I will say that I learned a lot from [10:57] that uh from that whole process because [11:01] like now if I travel anywhere I almost [11:04] always schedule either come back on [11:06] Saturday or you know come back home on [11:09] Saturday so that I've got Sunday to kind [11:11] of recoup [11:12] >> or take that first day off. just don't [11:15] don't schedule anything and then just [11:17] kind of ease yourself back in because it [11:19] is it's exhausting like the the leadup, [11:22] you know, you're especially if you're [11:24] speaking, you know, you're prepping [11:25] slides, like that's that's a week of [11:28] your time to do that [11:29] >> at least. Yeah. And then afterwards you [11:31] do you have that you have that hangover [11:33] that downtime where you you need to [11:35] recoup. You need to uh you know the [11:38] conversations you want to kind of like [11:40] replay those conversations in your head [11:42] and distill those down into like not [11:45] just I want to reach out to this person [11:47] but hey I had this conversation with [11:49] that person and that person and really [11:52] those two people need to meet. That's [11:53] one of my favorite things. I love [11:56] connecting people. Like, yeah, I want [11:58] you to come to me if you need the [12:00] services that I need, but just as [12:03] important to me is like if I can find [12:05] somebody that is a perfect client for [12:07] you, that feels just as good. [12:10] >> And and that stuff comes back to you. [12:11] Like we've we did that for we did that [12:14] for years. You know, we were passing [12:16] projects back and forth between uh [12:19] different agencies. Um I'll tell you a [12:21] story. I was at Word Camp [12:24] U. Well, it was word camp San Francisco [12:26] at the time or word camp US if you go [12:28] back far enough, right? And so somebody [12:31] knew that we were there from nine seeds. [12:33] And so he had come up to me and he's [12:35] like, "So, you know, how many of these [12:37] people here are your competition?" And [12:40] so I kind of look at the room and I'm [12:42] like, "Well, [12:44] everybody and nobody, [12:46] >> right? [12:47] A project that was like, you know, [12:49] WebDev Studios was doing these gigantic [12:51] projects. That wasn't us. like that was [12:54] not something that we just weren't going [12:55] to be able to handle at that time, [12:57] right? Like we weren't going to go take [12:58] on a six figure [13:01] >> project that would have probably buried [13:02] us. [13:03] >> Um but you know, like the three to five [13:06] to $7,000 project, we were crushing [13:09] those. So yeah, like that's that's the [13:12] thing like you everybody like introduce [13:15] people to the right people and uh and [13:16] good stuff happens. That's all. [13:19] >> How did you come to WordPress in the [13:21] beginning? like how did that how did [13:23] that become the thing for for you and [13:25] then for nine [13:25] >> seeds? I was blogging before WordPress [13:29] and I was like writing straight HTML and [13:32] doing a text editor and uploading files [13:34] and oh man it was painful and then I [13:38] started going through so I was doing [13:40] that originally and then like different [13:41] CMSs started coming about and I hopped [13:45] around and I hopped around and I just [13:46] kept finding them and I felt like I all [13:48] I really was doing was spending all my [13:50] time converting my content from one [13:52] thing to another thing to another thing [13:54] and um I actually found WordPress about [13:58] three months after it came out. A guy [14:00] that I was working with at that [14:01] corporate job actually uh introduced me. [14:04] He's like, I think this is something [14:06] that you might like. And it was easy and [14:08] it was it was kind of the easiest of the [14:11] tools that I had used. And I mean back [14:13] then it was, you know, very very thin on [14:16] features, right? [14:17] >> But it did what I needed. Yeah. And so I [14:20] was doing that and I was just doing that [14:22] for a while and then it started being [14:25] like, hey, I wonder if I could make it [14:27] do this other thing and then themes came [14:29] out and then plugins came out and then [14:31] like all these things and it just kind [14:34] of really set in and I the more and then [14:38] of course I started meeting the [14:39] community, right? Mhm. [14:40] >> And because there was a community that I [14:43] could ask questions to and get answers [14:45] from, like that was so far ahead of [14:48] where some of the other ones were. Um, [14:50] so even in the early days, there was uh, [14:52] you know, there was people that you [14:53] could ask. So that was that's kind of [14:55] how I found and kind of how it became [14:58] entrenched. And then once I started [15:01] making changes for myself and then other [15:03] people were like, "Hey, could you make [15:06] these tweaks for mine?" And, "Oh, sure." [15:09] and was charging him very little to do [15:11] it and doing it for friends and family [15:12] and [15:14] all of a sudden it's just it was just [15:16] buried and then once I really you know [15:19] once it really got going then at that [15:21] point it was there was just no way I was [15:24] going to change course there was just [15:27] uh you know if you're going to be an [15:28] agency you could be an agency that says [15:30] you know we work in any platform and [15:32] that's great and that's fine but man [15:36] being a specialist and having people [15:38] come to you like you have all of that [15:40] built-in knowledge from the 10 projects [15:43] you just finished. [15:44] >> Yeah, [15:45] >> that's that's hard to beat. So, [15:47] >> yeah, I just there was there was just [15:49] never once it got to that point, there [15:51] was just never the thought of trying to [15:53] be a generalist and do everything. [15:55] >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. What um [16:00] what things did you like what impact did [16:05] going to all of the the camps and [16:07] talking it as as many of them like [16:09] everybody talks about or a lot of people [16:11] talk about how um word camps don't [16:15] really have a an ROI a return on [16:18] investment right you sponsor or you [16:20] speak and maybe you get some like a [16:22] little bit of like uh name recognition [16:25] uh but really it's more about like like [16:27] I you know speaking from a company that [16:29] sponsors uh word camps, it's it's more [16:32] about a brand awareness thing rather [16:34] than like a direct lead sort of thing. [16:35] Was that true for you back then? Has it [16:39] has that changed over time? Have you [16:40] like watched that evolve? Like what was [16:42] your experience when when you kind of [16:44] came to the end of this this year um and [16:47] sort of reflected on it? What did you [16:49] sort of notice? Yeah, it's hard to [16:52] you're not going to go to a word camp, [16:55] especially in in another city, right? [16:57] I'm not going to go to Salt Lake and [16:59] then just come back with like five leads [17:01] that turn into projects. That's not [17:04] typically the way that it works. Um, but [17:07] you do you go to these things, you go to [17:09] the afterparties, you talk to these [17:10] people. And I will tell you that my [17:13] favorite thing that happened in that in [17:16] that first year and it was probably [17:18] pretty late into the year was somebody [17:20] filled out our contact form. We hop on a [17:23] call and I would always ask people like, [17:25] "How did you how'd you find us?" And uh [17:30] they're like, "Oh, so and so told me [17:32] about you." [17:33] >> And I didn't know who so and so was. I [17:35] had never heard of soando. they had just [17:38] happened to be at an event where I was [17:40] speaking. They they remembered that, [17:43] hey, this guy talked about this thing. [17:45] Then they found somebody who said that [17:47] they needed that thing and they again [17:50] making those connections. That's what [17:52] it's about. They they were doing the [17:53] exact same thing. They had two different [17:55] contacts from an event. So yeah, that's [17:57] what there is. I don't think you can go [18:01] and say Word Camp Chicago 2012 netted me [18:06] x amount of dollars because that that [18:07] number is zero, right? [18:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. [18:10] >> But it's not zero over the long enough [18:12] time. Like it's it's not zero. It's it's [18:16] connections, it's people. And those [18:18] people uh WordCamp Chicago, perfect [18:21] example. I think that's where I ended up [18:23] meeting uh Brad and Lisa from WebDev [18:27] Studios separately. They because they [18:29] weren't working together at the time, [18:30] right? [18:31] >> Um and then I ended up working there. [18:34] >> Y [18:34] >> many many years later. [18:37] >> So I don't know is that ROI. [18:39] >> Yeah. Right. I mean that that's that's [18:42] the thing is it it's uh my experience [18:44] has been in sort of this intangible [18:46] uh almost like just a a vibe. Um, one of [18:50] like my first experience with Pantheon [18:52] uh was I think really from meeting them [18:56] uh meeting the Devril team at uh uh [18:59] Loopconf which was in Salt Lake City [19:01] that year. [19:02] >> Um and talking to them talking like I [19:04] talked to everybody because I like I [19:06] would go booth hopping, right? Um and [19:08] that was a small enough event that you [19:09] could sort of like talk to all of the [19:11] different vendors. Um, and Pantheon [19:13] stuck out to me as as being different [19:16] because they kind of knew like they knew [19:18] where I was coming from. I had also like [19:19] done lots and lots of tech support and [19:22] like early on in my career. So like I [19:24] have this like radar for like [19:28] knowing when people like get that I know [19:30] what I'm talking about versus people [19:32] that are treating me like the tier one [19:34] support person who like you know we give [19:36] the same answer to everyone sort of [19:37] thing, right? Um because I always tried [19:39] to do when I was doing support and I I [19:40] went I was on tier one for like I don't [19:42] know 3 months and then I was on tier [19:43] three. So like I tried to like figure [19:45] out pretty quickly like how how deep can [19:48] I talk to this person on a technical [19:50] level. um just based on the things that [19:52] they're telling me, right? Um, and it [19:55] seemed and like they it felt like uh [19:56] they got it and and I they gave me like [19:59] a free account or whatever and I started [20:01] playing with it a little bit and uh then [20:04] like years later uh I would um I I you [20:07] know actually use them uh or like you [20:09] know years later like I I'm looking at [20:11] like they have a job posting and I'm [20:13] like okay like it's it's from it's from [20:16] like those sorts of like in-person like [20:19] things like like that being able to like [20:21] meet them in person like gave you've [20:23] gave the impression like these people [20:25] know what they're talking about that led [20:26] to like later on when something an [20:28] opportunity comes up like oh yeah I'm [20:30] going to think about them and um what [20:33] I've observed from from since being here [20:35] is like there was a period of time where [20:37] we weren't sponsoring and then the sort [20:39] of like sentiment the general is like we [20:42] sort of fell off the radar right and so [20:44] like one of the things that I've been [20:45] trying to do is like let's get us back [20:46] in the conversation let's go to the [20:48] things let's make make ourselves known [20:50] and I think that it's really helped and [20:51] I think that it it's really just it's a [20:54] vibe thing. It's it's hard to like quant [20:56] you can't quantify vibes. [20:58] >> Yeah. I don't think it's ROI, right? [21:00] It's ROC. It's return on connection. [21:03] Like that's [21:03] >> There you go. [21:04] >> Yeah. [21:05] >> Yeah. [21:06] >> Well, you've been in you've been in this [21:08] space for a really long time. um your [21:12] talk about like how your sort of like [21:15] path through WordPress and through these [21:17] different like uh agencies has sort of [21:19] like evolved over time and the sorts of [21:21] things that you've kind of like been [21:23] drawn to. [21:26] >> So after Nine Seeds I I left Nine Seeds [21:29] to go work at a startup and that startup [21:32] exploded. I worked at a different [21:34] startup that one I I don't remember what [21:37] happened with it. I ended up working at [21:39] three startups in a row and uh the [21:44] uh one of them was a casualty of of co [21:49] basically and that's how I ended up [21:51] getting laid off and then luckily I got [21:53] picked up by one of that company's [21:55] clients and I work there which was [21:58] another startup and um [22:02] you know I think it's [22:06] for me one of the things that was [22:07] happening was after I left Nine Seeds [22:11] where I had a team and I was working on [22:14] uh WordPress with people all the time [22:16] and sharing sharing information back and [22:19] forth and learning from people. Uh that [22:22] was that was amazing. That was an [22:24] amazing time. And then when I went into [22:25] the startup, I was actually doing [22:27] WordPress for a specific company and [22:31] that was a totally different animal, [22:33] right? Because I'm not trying to learn [22:36] everything under the sun. and I'm just [22:38] trying to get really deep on what this [22:39] one what this one project needs. And so [22:42] that was a totally different way of [22:45] being involved with WordPress. And while [22:49] I was doing those things, um especially [22:51] during COVID, like I tried to keep the [22:54] Las Vegas WordPress meetup going during [22:56] COVID and we were we were doing them on [22:59] Zoom for a while and then just everybody [23:02] got Zoom fatigue. [23:03] >> Yeah. And we we ended up having like the [23:05] same six people come every month and it [23:09] was I wasn't teaching anybody anything. [23:11] So I really got burned out on it myself [23:13] because I also had Zoom fatigue. Right. [23:16] So I totally backed out and I I like you [23:20] said about Pantheon, I feel like I just [23:23] disappeared off the face of the earth, [23:26] right? Um, [23:28] which is weird especially for somebody [23:30] like me because I I love chatting. I [23:33] love talking to people. Like that's what [23:35] I do. Um, and so all of a sudden I [23:37] really wasn't doing a heck of a lot of [23:39] that. And so after going from startup to [23:42] startup to startup where I was again [23:45] just that like insulated [23:47] developer [23:49] um and then I got laid off about a year [23:52] and a half ago but I had been doing some [23:54] things and I decided you know what I [23:56] don't I don't want to go get another [23:58] job. So I've actually just been um [24:01] running my own agency again but uh now [24:03] it's Vegas Geek and so I've been doing [24:06] that uh by myself. Well not I can't say [24:09] it by myself. That's not true. I've got [24:10] I I have helpers um for the past, you [24:13] know, almost two years now. And uh I [24:16] love it. It's it's it fits again. But in [24:19] doing that, what ended up happening was [24:22] um a while back I even though I'm having [24:26] great conversations on Slack and [24:27] chitchatting with folks. Um a while [24:30] back, uh I'm sure you know Brandon Dove [24:33] and Jeff Zen from Pixel Jar, right? So [24:36] Brandon and I were both really getting [24:38] into automation like NAN and and things [24:41] like that. So we were having these [24:42] conversations and we're like we should [24:44] do something a little more solidified. [24:47] And so we we picked a day of the week [24:49] and once a week like we just started [24:51] meeting and just talking and learning [24:53] and sharing and like that felt so good [24:57] again because it had been it felt like [24:59] it had just been so long since I was in [25:02] that uh learn and share mode, right? [25:06] >> And so now that's actually grown. we've [25:07] kind of it's no longer just the [25:09] automation stuff. Like we're back to [25:11] talking about projects and development [25:13] and uh you know there's a lot of really [25:16] cool stuff going on under the hood in [25:18] WordPress these days. So like we're [25:21] we're diving into that stuff and talking [25:23] about projects and how they work [25:24] together. So yeah, it's [25:28] going into that time where I felt like I [25:30] was just so far removed from the [25:33] community uh after kind of like during [25:35] an ending of COVID like during all of [25:37] that uh to now kind of coming back into [25:39] it and you know trying to re-engage and [25:42] and be involved online and with other [25:45] folks just feels so good. It feels like [25:49] I needed this and I'm I'm glad to be [25:52] bringing that back. [25:53] >> Yeah. So like a like a virtual meetup [25:55] sort of like hangout kind of thing. [25:57] Yeah. [25:58] >> Yeah. [25:59] >> Yeah. [25:59] >> But not something that I have to run and [26:01] produce like I don't have to make slides [26:03] and I don't have to, you know, I'm not [26:05] preparing anything. We we have a we have [26:08] a conbon board where we just throw [26:09] topics on it during the week. We're [26:11] like, "Oh, hey, let's talk about this." [26:12] And we do. We just jump on and talk [26:14] about it. And it's it's great. [26:16] >> Yeah. [26:17] >> Yeah. I I I feel like that's really [26:19] important. um particularly when you are [26:23] sort of in the small agency or sort of [26:26] like solo dev kind of mode because it's [26:29] it's very easy to to be sort of isolated [26:31] and out on your own island. Um and and [26:34] not know what other people are even [26:35] doing because you're so just you're [26:37] you're [26:38] >> grinding and you're trying to get your [26:39] own done and and and it's it's hard [26:42] to keep track of all the things. So it's [26:44] it's good to have sort of a designated [26:47] space to to have [26:50] other human contact. [26:52] >> Yeah, it was it was probably like three [26:54] or four maybe five weeks in where I got [26:57] off the phone and I was just like [26:59] there's so much value here. Like just so [27:02] much value to be had just in a one-hour [27:04] conversation. And I mean, you know how [27:07] it is. You you wake up Monday morning, [27:09] you got a bunch of stuff to do, then [27:11] Tuesday and then Wednesday and then [27:13] Thursday and then all of a sudden you're [27:14] back to back to Monday again. And if if [27:16] you don't set aside these times to like [27:19] do it, it's very easy to go four, six, [27:23] 8, 10, 12 weeks without, you know, [27:25] without talking to anybody, without [27:27] having any like meaningful conversations [27:29] where you're where you are learning [27:31] something like, you know, even we just [27:34] even talk about things like what are you [27:36] using for passing credentials when it's [27:39] needed? what are you you know just [27:41] because if you're by yourself yeah you [27:44] can go ask the internet yeah you can go [27:46] ask GPT all those things but I really [27:50] want to know like how did you solve this [27:52] like what worked for you because there's [27:54] 5,000 ideas online sure but what are you [27:57] actually putting in practice and that's [28:01] way more valuable than any chat GPT [28:04] result [28:05] >> yeah [28:07] well and and for you uh Vegas Geek is a [28:13] name that you've held on to. I mean, I [28:17] knew you as Vegas Geek before I knew [28:19] that you were John, right? Like [28:21] >> Sure. [28:22] >> It's it's an online persona that has [28:24] existed for forever. Um but now you're [28:26] using it as as uh as a company or Yeah. [28:31] So, is there a difference between um uh [28:34] for you between having Vegas Geek as [28:37] sort of like your own sort of personal [28:39] online identity versus now it's like a [28:43] brand, [28:44] >> right? [28:44] >> Or do you think about that? [28:47] >> Funny you should say. Um I I have been [28:52] wanting to get the domain name [28:54] Hawkins.com for 30 years and I got it [28:59] like two weeks ago. [29:02] >> Nice. [29:03] >> Yeah. Um and part of it has to do [29:06] >> I'm never going to get chrisreolds.com, [29:08] >> right? It turns out if you pay enough, [29:11] you will. [29:11] >> Oh, yeah. Wow. [29:13] >> Yeah. So, um [29:17] for me, what I was what I was realizing [29:20] is uh you know, my Vegas geek I for a [29:24] while I was down to I only had one [29:26] email, johnvegeeek.com, and it was [29:28] great. It was fantastic. And then all of [29:31] a sudden, I had one for one client and I [29:33] had one for another client. And now I [29:35] had like eight emails. And I was like, [29:38] okay, if I'm going to have this many [29:41] that I need to deal with, like what I [29:43] really should be doing is I should be [29:46] breaking apart that Vegas geek John [29:49] Hawkins thing. Not only at the email [29:52] level, but at the bigger level. There's [29:54] there's stuff that I want to write [29:56] about. Like I want to blog about [29:57] different things and do they fit for [30:01] Vegas Geek? Is that is that right? I [30:04] want to do I want to talk about board [30:05] games and whatever like you know my [30:08] guitar. I don't know. [30:10] >> Probably not. So maybe there does need [30:12] to be. So just over really just over the [30:15] past couple of months I've really uh [30:18] started putting in a effort to go okay [30:22] Vegas Geek is the brand. I I need to do [30:25] that. So, I'm, you know, I'm going to [30:28] just start retooling things, the [30:29] website, content, etc., social media [30:32] stuff, and um I'm just going to break [30:34] the two apart because [30:37] Vegas Geek is growing and it's turning [30:40] into a little thing that's that it's a [30:42] that it's its own thing that isn't me. [30:44] >> Yeah. [30:45] >> And that and that's cool. And I'm I'm [30:48] pretty stoked about that really, [30:49] honestly. [30:50] >> Yeah. I mean, I think that like, you [30:52] know, when you and I kind of entered the [30:56] internet was a very different time where [30:59] you basically didn't give your name out [31:02] online. We were I don't know if it was [31:04] paranoia. I don't know if it was like [31:06] there were fewer security things. Maybe [31:08] it was all of the above. [31:09] >> Um, but like [31:11] >> it was it was just a natural thing to to [31:14] your name is not a thing that is is now [31:18] that is public domain. And now that [31:20] that's that's really shifted um where [31:23] where everybody just like their name is [31:25] is everywhere and you can look people up [31:27] by uh and see you know the various [31:29] different John Hawkins is on the [31:30] internet. Um but but so I think that you [31:34] know to a to a degree um the way that I [31:38] internalize it is is like seeing Vegas [31:40] like Vegas geek is part of that sort of [31:42] like internet founding kind of uh [31:44] beginnings. [31:45] Yeah, it's it is it was it was my [31:49] persona. It has been my persona. It is [31:51] my persona. Like that's not that's not [31:53] going away. [31:54] >> Yeah. [31:54] >> But uh but yeah, it's true. Like that's [31:58] I don't know that that's necessarily I [32:00] uh [32:02] I mean I have the word geek tattoo. So [32:04] this is like I've been a geek my entire [32:07] life. And so, uh, when I moved to Vegas, [32:10] like Vegas Geek was just kind of this [32:11] cool thing and like I just really dove [32:15] into it and [32:18] >> got the idea early. [32:19] >> I did. Yeah. And like I I don't know, it [32:22] kind of felt more like, you know, like [32:24] because especially when you're doing [32:25] like handles and stuff like John [32:27] Hawkins, if if you're not like day one [32:29] when a platform [32:31] >> Yeah. [32:31] >> launches, you're just not getting it [32:34] right. So you so you do you come up with [32:36] something and I I did want something [32:38] that um that I could then own all of, [32:41] right? Uh so yeah, so that's kind of how [32:43] that all that's kind of how that all [32:46] started really. Um and then you know all [32:50] of a sudden you you look up and it's [32:51] been 20 years. [32:53] How's that happen? I don't know. [32:55] >> So but yeah, and you know again now I [32:58] feel like maybe maybe John Hawkins can [33:00] be his own thing again. Yeah, [33:01] >> we'll see. We'll see how that goes. [33:04] Um, what are some things, especially as [33:07] you're getting back into more [33:09] soloreneurish type world? What do you [33:12] what do you feel like you've learned [33:14] from like running an agency, working at [33:17] agencies, but now working again for [33:19] yourself? Like what are things that uh [33:22] that you've taken away from that journey [33:25] or that like other people could maybe [33:26] pick up from from mistakes that you've [33:29] made or things that you've learned along [33:30] the way? [33:32] >> Man, mistakes that I've made. How much [33:33] time you got? [33:34] >> Um, yeah, [33:35] >> 20 minutes. [33:36] >> Fair enough. Okay. Uh, no. I will, you [33:40] know, early early on, um, I [33:45] I never wanted to host for people. I [33:48] never I never wanted to be the host for [33:50] people. And what happened was over time [33:54] people would be like, "Oh, you know, my [33:56] hosting sucks. Can you just do it for [33:58] me?" And I always said no because I [34:01] didn't want to be the phone call at 3 in [34:03] the morning. And I will also say that at [34:06] the time, like way back when, I didn't [34:08] know nearly enough. And I didn't know [34:10] enough people. [34:11] >> Yeah. [34:12] >> To to make it so that I could actually [34:14] do hosting for people and make it secure [34:17] and strong and fast and all of those [34:20] things. [34:20] Um, so because of that, because I was [34:23] because I had that stance kind of early [34:25] on, uh, you know, so much of our work [34:28] early on was, um, bring a client in, do [34:33] their project, push them out the door. [34:35] Good to know you. Adios. [34:37] >> Yeah, [34:40] >> I hate that now. I hate it. I I have [34:43] turned my thoughts on that around so [34:46] much. Every single time I am working on [34:49] a project now I am thinking about [34:53] recurring revenue. How what services can [34:57] I offer? Don't just you know yeah you [34:59] can build somebody a website that's [35:01] great but how do you turn that into a [35:04] package that you can then continue on [35:08] with? Now, I'm not an SEO guy, but I [35:11] know a guy, so he and I are working in [35:13] it together now where [35:15] we can now together offer some SEO [35:18] services. I'm not going to do that [35:20] because SEO is its own thing. But [35:23] anything that you can do to bring in [35:27] that recurring revenue because I tell [35:30] you what, all you need is two bad months [35:33] where no leads come in the door and you [35:37] know things start getting pretty scary. [35:39] Uh what was the saying? What was I just [35:41] I heard a saying somewhat recently that [35:44] um like you know most people are two bad [35:47] months away from being homeless where [35:51] are further are closer to being homeless [35:53] than they are from being from two good [35:56] months making the millionaires. Yeah. [35:57] Right. Like that's just [35:59] >> that's the that's where we live these [36:01] days. And so having that that base, even [36:06] if it doesn't cover everything, even if [36:08] it gets close, but it's something that [36:11] you could at least pay the rent, [36:14] get some food, you know, having that was [36:17] huge. And so when I did get laid off 18 [36:20] months ago, I had already been working [36:22] on building that recurring revenue for [36:26] about five years leading up to that. So [36:29] when that happened, I wasn't I didn't [36:32] wake up the next morning going, "Oh [36:34] now what?" [36:36] >> Yeah. [36:37] >> I just kind of dove back into work. And [36:39] then what I started doing was what other [36:42] services can I offer the people that I'm [36:45] already connected with. And then as I'm [36:48] doing that, I started telling people, [36:50] hey, you know what? if you if you have [36:52] other people in your network, tell them [36:54] about me and I'll give you a month of [36:57] hosting and maintenance for free or you [36:59] know, whatever. Didn't matter. Like [37:01] anything that you could do just to get [37:03] people to say your name in a in another [37:05] room uh was huge. So that right there if [37:10] if you learn nothing else like just [37:13] figure out a service that you can offer [37:15] and [37:16] >> yeah, [37:16] >> dive in. Yeah, I uh I had the same [37:20] opinion uh when I started when I was [37:22] freelancing. I never wanted to get into [37:24] hosting. I ended up doing it for a [37:25] couple people, but I wasn't like hosting [37:29] them. I was just like managing their [37:32] hosted stuff which is [37:34] >> also not a thing that I want to do like [37:36] really like um [37:38] >> and certainly not not at the time and [37:40] certainly not at the time when like you [37:41] know this person over here has GoDaddy [37:43] and this person over here has like Blue [37:45] Host and this person over here has [37:46] DreamHost like like if it was going to [37:48] be my choice and everybody's going to be [37:50] under one roof and I manage you all in [37:52] the same way in the same the same you [37:53] know [37:54] >> um [37:55] >> but also like you know we're talking old [37:57] school like before the WP engines and [38:00] before I mean Pantheon was around maybe [38:03] but maybe not even doing WordPress at [38:04] the time like there weren't like these [38:06] sorts of uh companies that would give [38:10] you a lot more tools to uh help you [38:14] maintain those sites. Uh it was all like [38:18] you know what was it? uh InfiniteWP I [38:21] think is the thing that I used where it [38:22] was like a little app that connected to [38:23] all the other uh sites that I was [38:25] managing that I could hit a button and [38:27] then and then it would run updates on [38:28] everybody else's site. um like that that [38:32] was that was how how you did it and [38:35] because I didn't want to have to log and [38:37] that even that was like groundbreaking [38:39] like when I discovered that using that [38:41] like oh my god this is amazing [38:43] >> I just got back so many hours in a day [38:45] so great right [38:46] >> yeah yeah [38:47] >> yeah but like again like to your point [38:49] like I I remember when I when I joined [38:51] uh humanmade um they they had built [38:55] their own cloud infrastructure on AWS [38:58] and I was like I never wanted to do [39:00] this. But I also obviously see the value [39:03] because it's exactly what you say like [39:05] like [39:07] >> being able to to do that that that [39:09] ongoing recurring revenue and being able [39:11] to like say like no we actually have a [39:14] thing that we've tuned really well and [39:16] have people who know how to do it like [39:19] more power to you. Like go do that thing [39:21] because that's that is a very specific [39:24] skill set to do it right. uh versus just [39:27] like, yeah, I've got my thing hosted on [39:29] Blue Host and like I pay them five bucks [39:32] a month or whatever and and hopefully it [39:34] works. [39:35] >> Yeah. So, for for me, I I actually don't [39:38] even I typically don't tell people that [39:39] I do hosting upfront, that's not what I [39:42] do. What I instead do is I say, "By the [39:45] way, I will do your monthly maintenance [39:49] >> where I'm going to take care of all of [39:50] your stuff. It's basically like white [39:52] glove. You're going to pay X amount of [39:53] dollars a month for that. And by the [39:55] way, I'll host your site for absolutely [39:57] free. Your your hosting is free, but [40:00] while you're with me, you are always [40:02] paying a maintenance fee. [40:04] >> And the whole reason is [40:07] >> there's no sites that are in my [40:11] ecosystem that are not getting updates [40:14] every couple of weeks. not you know uh [40:16] all of those things like you know one [40:21] one thing on your site go on your server [40:23] goes completely sideways and you know [40:27] then you're then what right so yeah I I [40:29] never want I [40:31] >> I really was picking and choosing as I [40:34] was going along with it and so uh I'm [40:36] only bringing on people and I'm only [40:38] working with people who they're not [40:40] looking for $5 a month post hosting or [40:42] you know that's because believe me I'm [40:44] way more expensive than that. And I tell [40:46] people right up front, I am the most [40:48] expensive hosting option that you are [40:50] going to find. [40:52] But I don't care if you don't want the [40:55] services that I have. That's totally [40:57] fine. I'm happy to do it. I'm happy to [40:59] work with you on your situation. But you [41:02] know, when you say, "Why is my site so [41:05] slow?" And I say, "Well, I offered you [41:07] four solutions and you didn't want [41:09] those." [41:11] That's a different conversation. Yeah. [41:12] Right. Yeah. So, yeah. [41:14] Yeah. No, it's definitely something that [41:16] I I would have appreciated hearing at [41:20] the time that I was doing that. I I had [41:21] I think I had one I I was working with [41:24] um one of my clients was a lawyer. So, [41:26] my my very first web design job was [41:29] through a company that was local in Utah [41:32] and they were basically just hired a ton [41:33] of contractors and they just like did [41:36] like commodity websites. Like you would [41:38] call them and you say, "I have this I [41:40] have this thing. I need a website." and [41:42] they would answer like a survey or [41:44] something and maybe give a logo or some, [41:46] you know, stuff and then it would like [41:48] feed off to like they had some in-house [41:49] designers and they had a bunch of like [41:51] contractors. [41:52] >> Um, and we would contact them. We had to [41:55] get like a special headset and whatever [41:56] all this stuff. So, I did that for like [41:58] a year. Um, and then one of the one of [42:02] the people that I worked with in the [42:03] course of that was a lawyer in New York. [42:05] He was a criminal lawyer. Uh, it was a [42:07] really cool uh guy. Um, and he ended up [42:12] leaving that company because they were [42:14] kind of a pile of And there's a [42:17] whole story about them, too. Like the [42:18] the the co-founders ran off with a bunch [42:20] of money. Like a whole thing. Yeah. [42:22] Yeah. Utah. Um, [42:24] >> anyway, he got out before that happened, [42:26] which is good for him. Um, but he uh [42:28] when he left um them, he contacted me [42:31] separately. He's like, "Hey, would you [42:33] want to still do this stuff?" And then [42:34] he asked me, "What's your retainer fee?" [42:37] because and that was the first time I'd [42:39] even like heard that phrase. I'm like, [42:41] "What is a retainer? [42:43] >> Please hold. Let me go look that up." [42:45] Who? [42:47] >> So, I gave him something really like [42:49] really low because I didn't know what [42:51] the hell I was doing at the time. It was [42:52] like 20 bucks a month or something, but [42:53] he just like, "Okay, great. I'll pay you [42:55] on a retainer. I probably won't need [42:57] very much, but every once in a while [42:58] that means that I can contact you and [43:00] you can do whatever." And it wasn't it [43:01] was [43:02] >> I mean, 20 bucks is is nothing, but 20 [43:05] bucks is 20 bucks. like it's it's it's [43:08] something and it's and it was something [43:09] that was recurring and like [43:11] >> Yeah. I [43:12] >> and it was and it was probably like that [43:14] starting point for you of like wait a [43:16] second hold the phone I can do this. [43:19] >> Yeah. [43:20] >> Yeah. Retainers were something that I [43:21] avoided for years as well cuz I'm an [43:25] idiot apparently. I don't [43:26] >> Exactly. Yeah. [43:27] >> Well, I mean Yeah. Now, like absolutely. [43:30] And and what I tell people with [43:32] retainers is, you know, it's not that [43:34] you're like what you're doing is you're [43:36] basically jumping to the front of the [43:38] line. [43:38] >> That's what that you're you're paying [43:40] this and you are basically jumping to [43:42] the front of of my queue every single [43:44] time. [43:45] >> Yeah. [43:45] >> And Yeah. Like that is [43:48] >> if you have the right people that if you [43:50] find the right people that need that or [43:52] just want that comfort level, that's [43:55] gold. [43:56] >> Well, and the other part of that is is [43:58] >> it's not just gold for you, though. It's [43:59] gold for them. [44:01] >> It also keeps you in the conversation. [44:03] It keeps you in their head and it keeps [44:05] like every month they have to send you [44:07] something, right? Even if they don't [44:08] even if they didn't talk to you, which [44:10] means that they're thinking about you at [44:11] least every 30 days, which means that [44:13] when something does come up, they're not [44:15] going to be thinking of somebody else. [44:16] They're going to be thinking of you [44:17] because you're the person that they've [44:18] got the the agreement with. [44:20] >> Yeah. [44:20] >> Exactly. And that that again that goes [44:23] right back to speaking at word camps and [44:25] teaching somebody something. If you [44:27] teach somebody something, then they come [44:29] to you and ask you, "Hey, can you do [44:32] this thing for me?" And you charge them [44:34] whatever you charge them. The next time, [44:37] if that if that first interaction goes [44:39] well, who are they contacting the next [44:41] time? You and only you. over and over [44:44] and over again. Which again, now this is [44:48] uh a look behind the behind the curtain. [44:50] But again, with the monthly maintenance, [44:54] >> the monthly maintenance is is just the [44:56] get your foot in the door. Because [44:58] really what that turns into is, [45:00] >> oh, hey, I saw this thing on your site. [45:02] I can fix that for you. Sure, that's two [45:05] hours this month. Maybe it's an hour [45:07] next month or three the next. Maybe it's [45:09] nothing for six months. and then they're [45:11] like, "Hey, we need a redesign. Is that [45:14] something that you can do?" Yes, it is. [45:17] And they're only going to be coming back [45:18] to you. So, that's where it's you're [45:22] doing that service for somebody on a [45:24] recurring basis and you are you're [45:26] keeping yourself in that uh in that [45:28] conversation and they're just not going [45:30] anywhere else. They're they've got no [45:32] reason to. And as long as you don't [45:34] screw it up, [45:35] >> they're not going to. [45:36] >> And that's the moral of the of this [45:38] episode. Don't screw it up. Don't screw [45:40] it up. [45:42] >> Well, thank you, John, for coming on. [45:44] Uh, for for anybody who might uh not [45:48] know where to find you online, which is [45:49] obviously Vegasgeeek.com, but besides [45:51] that, uh, where can people find you uh [45:54] in the internet or in real life? [45:57] >> Uh, I don't exist in real life. I don't [46:00] know if you know that, but uh, true. [46:02] But, um, [46:04] >> uh, yeah, Vegasgeeek.com is probably the [46:06] go-to. And who knows, maybe by the time [46:09] this airs, uh, johnhawkins.com might be [46:12] a thing. Who knows? We'll see. [46:14] >> Um, we planning on going to, uh, Word [46:17] Camp US in in Phoenix next year. [46:20] >> Uh, I don't know. I don't know. [46:24] >> It's going to be very warm. I I [46:26] >> But here's the thing. I'm I'm already in [46:28] Vegas, so [46:29] >> I know, right? It's not going to be that [46:30] much different. That's why for you it's [46:31] like it's like a little bit it's it's [46:33] less of a drive for you than it is for [46:35] me. Uh it's already like you're already [46:37] blisteringly hot like Yeah. [46:39] >> Exactly. Yeah. We don't go outside. [46:42] That's why I said we're not we don't [46:43] exist. So [46:44] >> yeah, I don't know. I uh I might So much [46:47] of it just depends on on timing and uh [46:51] >> what's going on. [46:52] >> Yeah. [46:52] >> I think I I think the fact that it's in [46:55] Phoenix does make it a little more [46:58] tempting because it is closer. Yeah. the [47:00] ones that are uh across the country. [47:02] Again, these days, I don't have somebody [47:05] footing the bill. I've never had [47:06] somebody footing the bill, by the way, I [47:07] should say. Um [47:10] I pay for it myself. So, I really have [47:12] to now consider [47:14] >> it. Yeah. [47:15] >> Justify [47:16] >> Yeah. [47:16] >> that ROC, [47:19] >> return on uh [47:21] >> connection. [47:22] >> Return on connection. Thank you. Yes. [47:24] All right. Great. I I love that. Uh I [47:27] think that's a good place to end. Uh, [47:28] thank you again for coming on, John. Uh, [47:31] thank everyone who might be watching or [47:32] listening to this in the future. And for [47:34] everyone, uh, we'll see you on the [47:36] internet.