Community + Code Episode 27 - Miriam Schwab

Community + Code: Episode 27 - Miriam Schwab ![rw-book-cover](https://readwise-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/static/images/article1.be68295a7e40.png) 🔗 **Source:** [Community + Code: Episode 27 - Miriam Schwab](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [community-building, open-source, elementor, agency-to-startup, wordpress-career] > author: [MISSING] > source: Community + Code > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo] > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Community + Code: Episode 27 - Miriam Schwab >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - Miriam Schwab's journey from English literature graduate to Head of WordPress at Elementor, spanning 20 years in the WordPress ecosystem - Built a successful 13-year agency before founding Stratic, a Jamstack-WordPress hybrid platform that served Fortune 500 companies - Joined Elementor after acquisition, became the bridge between the 21-million-install company and the WordPress community - Established Elementor's Five for the Future program and community presence at a scale most agencies never reach - Demonstrates how technical curiosity, community relationships, and entrepreneurial thinking compound over decades ## 📖 Main Content Miriam Schwab's career illustrates how deep specialization in WordPress can create unexpected opportunities across multiple business models. Starting as a freelance content writer with an English literature degree, she noticed websites were more interesting than the content she was writing for them. This observation led to self-teaching web development and positioning herself as one of Israel's first professional WordPress service providers around version 3.0. Her 13-year agency focused on custom WordPress sites for tech companies and large nonprofits. The consistent learning curve and meaningful client work sustained her interest, though she maintained product ambitions throughout. When her children grew older, she transitioned to founding Stratic, combining WordPress's content management capabilities with Jamstack's performance benefits through static site generation. Stratic solved a specific enterprise pain point: marketing teams wanted WordPress's familiar interface while technical leaders needed the performance and security of static sites. The platform attracted Fortune 500 companies, the UN, and government clients by serving as a bridge between these two constituencies within organizations. Elementor acquired Stratic after a relationship that began years earlier at small Israeli WordCamps. The founders had sponsored events when they were "three guys with a folding table," creating connections that lasted through their growth to 21 million active installs. This demonstrates how community relationships can create business opportunities on unexpected timelines. As Head of WordPress at Elementor, Schwab created a role that didn't previously exist to address specific gaps in how the company engaged with the WordPress ecosystem. Her responsibilities include managing the Five for the Future program, ensuring plugin guideline compliance, maintaining partner relationships, and serving as the company's community face. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=0) Introduction and Background - Two decades in WordPress, started as freelance content writer - Met at post-COVID WordCamp US San Diego when representing newly-acquired Stratic - English literature degree after switching from computer science due to Hebrew language barriers #### ⏱️ [00:03:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=192) Early Technology Interest - Father bought PC when she was eight, got second computer for kids - Typed code from books to create simple games - Early internet fascination with connecting to strangers globally - Websites became more interesting than content writing #### ⏱️ [00:08:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=525) Agency to Startup Journey - 13-year agency serving tech companies and nonprofits in Israel - Well-positioned as early professional WordPress adopter around version 3.0 - Constant learning curve kept work interesting - Product ambitions throughout but focused on agency until kids were older #### ⏱️ [00:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=930) Stratic Platform Vision - Combined WordPress backend with static site deployment - Solved enterprise conflict between marketing teams (wanted WordPress) and technical leaders (needed performance/security) - Jamstack trend inspiration from Matt Biilmann's Netlify case study - Fortune 500 companies, governments, UN as clients #### ⏱️ [00:18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=1125) Elementor Relationship History - Met founders at early Israeli WordCamps when they were "three guys with a folding table" - Started with Pojo theme product before Elementor - Long relationship before acquisition opportunity emerged - Awkward first WordCamp representing Elementor week after joining #### ⏱️ [00:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=1500) WordPress Platform Loyalty - Tested other platforms but always frustrated by limitations - WordPress consistently enabled achieving goals - Self-described "fake developer" who understands tech but doesn't want to write code - Community quality and learning resources kept her engaged #### ⏱️ [00:32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=1935) Head of WordPress Role Definition - Created position to address community engagement gaps - Team came from other tech companies, not WordPress background - Manages Five for the Future program, plugin compliance, partner relationships - First Elementor speaker, created speaking program for others #### ⏱️ [00:38:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=2280) Role Complexity and Prioritization - Entrepreneurial position requiring self-motivation - Similar to CEO work: relationship-driven, staying current on developments - Creates internal AI/WordPress newsletter - Reports to CEO but operates with significant autonomy #### ⏱️ [00:42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=2550) Five for the Future Program - Leadership knew it was "the right thing to do" before she advocated - Financial sponsorship rather than internal contributor time - Started with performance team, expanded to multiple teams - Brand investment argument alongside moral imperative #### ⏱️ [00:47:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=2865) Open Source Contribution Philosophy - Realistic expectations for smaller agencies with tight margins - Larger companies have responsibility once thriving - Open source contribution as brand investment in ecosystem - "Return on connection" rather than direct ROI #### ⏱️ [00:52:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo&t=3120) Elementor's Growth Success - 21 million active installs, became #1 WordPress plugin - Right product at right time, initially free version only - Customer feedback focus despite massive scale - Careful hiring process and talented team - Humble leadership with strategic focus ## 📚 References - [Community + Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tmz9qsXJvo) - [Miriam Schwab's website](https://miriamschwab.me) - Stratic platform (acquired by Elementor) - Five for the Future WordPress program - WordCamp events and WordPress community ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Miriam Schwab's career demonstrates how deep specialization in WordPress can create compound opportunities across different business models. She transitioned from content writing to agency work to startup founder to corporate community leader by maintaining consistent engagement with the WordPress ecosystem over two decades. Her role at Elementor bridges a 21-million-install company with the open source community, showing how relationships built at small events can scale to enterprise impact. The interview reveals how technical curiosity, community investment, and entrepreneurial thinking can create career paths that didn't exist when you started. ## 📰 Newsletter Ever wonder how a content writer becomes the WordPress community bridge for the world's most popular plugin? Miriam Schwab's journey from freelance writing to heading WordPress relations at Elementor (21 million installs!) shows how curiosity and community connections compound over decades. She started noticing websites were more interesting than the content she wrote for them, taught herself WordPress around version 3.0, built a 13-year agency, founded a Jamstack startup that served Fortune 500 companies, and now manages Elementor's Five for the Future program. Her story proves that staying curious about the tools you use daily and showing up consistently in community spaces can open doors you never imagined. Plus, she just built her new site with AI and WordPress - because even WordPress veterans keep experimenting! ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Document "return on connection" metrics for community event attendance and sponsorships - Create internal newsletters about industry developments to keep non-community teams informed - Establish clear pathways from community engagement to business outcomes - Develop speaking programs that scale beyond single advocates #### Community - Build relationships at small events that may scale over time - the "folding table" sponsors of today could be major partners tomorrow - Create bridge roles between large companies and open source communities when teams lack ecosystem context - Establish Five for the Future programs focused on specific pain points (performance, security, etc.) - Maintain realistic expectations for contribution based on company size and resources #### WordPress - Core: Document pathways for large companies to engage meaningfully with contribution teams - Community: Create mentorship programs connecting established agencies with newer community members - Marketing: Highlight success stories of long-term community relationship building - Five for the Future: Develop targeted sponsorship opportunities for specific WordPress teams and initiatives ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Community relationships built at small events create disproportionate business value over 5-10 year timeframes - Companies with 1M+ users have moral and business imperatives to contribute to open source ecosystems - Bridge roles between large companies and open source communities become essential as products scale - Deep platform specialization creates more career opportunities than broad technical skills - Self-taught "fake developers" can succeed in technical roles by understanding systems without writing code - Open source contribution functions as brand investment with unmeasurable but significant returns ## 📊 Methodology - Longitudinal career tracking: Follow WordPress community members over 10-20 year periods to identify relationship ROI patterns - Contribution impact analysis: Measure business outcomes for companies with established Five for the Future programs - Community bridge effectiveness: Survey large WordPress companies on community engagement gaps before/after dedicated community roles - Platform specialization outcomes: Compare career trajectories of WordPress specialists vs. generalist developers - Event relationship mapping: Track business relationships that originate at WordCamps and other community events ## ❓ Questions - How do you quantify "return on connection" from community events and long-term relationship building? - What organizational structures best support bridge roles between large companies and open source communities? - How should contribution expectations scale with company size and revenue in WordPress ecosystem? - What percentage of WordPress businesses should realistically be expected to contribute beyond using the platform? - How do you maintain entrepreneurial autonomy within large corporate structures? ## 🔮 Future Research - Impact measurement frameworks for open source community investment by large companies - Career pathway analysis for WordPress ecosystem professionals across different business models - Relationship network effects in open source communities over extended time periods - Organizational design patterns for community-facing roles in technology companies - Scaling challenges for community-driven companies as they reach enterprise adoption levels ## 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Deep platform specialization may create more opportunities than broad technical skills - **Policy**: Large WordPress companies need clear contribution expectations and support frameworks - **Education**: Community relationship building should be taught as professional development skill - **Funding**: Five for the Future sponsorship models could be replicated across other open source projects - **Career Development**: Bridge roles between technical and community functions will become increasingly valuable ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-13 (Flesch-Kincaid). Professional vocabulary with conversational tone. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Career timeline visualization showing transitions between roles and companies - Improve: Infographic of WordPress ecosystem relationships, Elementor growth charts, Five for the Future program structure diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio, conversational interview format - Improve: Audio highlights reel, key quotes for sharing, transcript with speaker timestamps #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear explanations of technical concepts, analogies for complex business relationships - Improve: Glossary of WordPress ecosystem terms, comparison tables of different career paths #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Career decision points that listeners can relate to their own situations - Improve: Interactive career path explorer, "What would you do?" decision scenarios, contribution calculator #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear chronological progression, cause-and-effect relationships in career development - Improve: Decision trees for career transitions, ROI frameworks for community investment, contribution impact metrics #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Emphasis on community relationships and networking value - Improve: Discussion prompts about community building, networking strategy worksheets, mentor matching frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection opportunities about career paths and specialization choices - Improve: Self-assessment tools for community involvement, personal contribution planning templates #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem metaphors for WordPress community relationships - Improve: Community sustainability frameworks, contribution lifecycle thinking, long-term relationship cultivation strategies ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, speaker identification in transcript - Improve: Speaker role descriptions, technical term definitions, link context for external references #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls, transcript text selection - Improve: Timestamp navigation shortcuts, searchable transcript, chapter markers #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear video quality, readable transcript formatting - Improve: High contrast transcript options, adjustable text size controls #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Synchronized captions, speaker identification in captions, key term highlighting ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: International perspective (Israel to US), multiple business models represented - Improve: More diverse geographic examples, acknowledgment of privilege in network access #### Inclusive language - Present: Avoids jargon where possible, explains technical concepts - Improve: Define industry-specific terms, provide context for WordPress ecosystem newcomers #### Representation - Present: Female technology leader, non-traditional educational background - Improve: Acknowledge barriers others might face, discuss diversity in WordPress community #### Psychological safety - Present: Honest discussion of challenges and failures alongside successes - Improve: Content warnings for business stress discussions, alternative pathway validation ## ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Career progression logic**: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between community involvement and professional opportunities with specific examples (WordCamp connections leading to acquisition) - **Platform specialization benefits**: Well-supported argument that deep WordPress knowledge created more opportunities than broad technical skills - **Community investment ROI**: Logical framework for treating open source contribution as brand investment rather than direct revenue driver #### Fallacies - **Survivorship bias**: Success story may not reflect typical outcomes for community-focused career strategies - not all WordCamp relationships lead to acquisitions - **Post hoc reasoning**: Some career successes attributed to community involvement may have resulted from other factors like market timing or individual talent #### Tone of voice - **Conversational and authentic**: Natural interview flow with genuine enthusiasm for WordPress community and technology - **Humble expertise**: Acknowledges luck and timing while demonstrating deep knowledge and strategic thinking ## 🛡️ DARVO Analysis No DARVO patterns detected. The interview maintains a collaborative, growth-minded tone throughout with honest acknowledgment of challenges and failures alongside successes. ## 🎯 Conclusion Miriam Schwab's career trajectory demonstrates how consistent community engagement and deep platform specialization can create compound opportunities across multiple business models. Her role bridging Elementor's 21-million-install scale with WordPress's open source community illustrates the growing importance of dedicated community professionals as technology companies scale. The key insight for WordPress professionals is that relationship building at community events and sustained ecosystem engagement often creates more career value than purely technical skills, though both remain important for long-term success. --- ## Full Transcript [00:19] Hi, welcome back to Community and Code. [00:21] I'm Chris, Jazz Sequence on the [00:23] internet, and today we've got a guest [00:25] I've been wanting to get on the show for [00:26] a while. Miriam Schwab has been in the [00:29] WordPress world for two decades. I first [00:31] met her several years ago at Word Camp [00:33] US in San Diego, which was the one that [00:36] was the first one after COVID when we [00:38] were all still trying to figure out how [00:39] to stand next to each other, which also [00:41] happened to be right after her company [00:43] Stratic had just gotten acquired by [00:45] Elementor. And she was sent to represent [00:47] a company she had only just barely [00:48] joined. Miriam started as a freelance [00:51] content writer who noticed that the [00:53] websites she was building were actually [00:54] more interesting than the writing [00:56] itself. So, she taught herself how to [00:58] build them and then built a 13-year [01:00] agency serving tech companies and [01:01] nonprofits in Israel. Then, she went [01:04] full startup mode, co-founded Stratic, [01:06] raised venture capital, got into [01:07] accelerators, the whole nine yards. [01:09] Stratic ended up with Fortune 500 [01:11] companies and governments on it. And [01:13] then Elementor acquired it, which is how [01:15] she ended up as head of WordPress at [01:18] Elementor, a title that basically means [01:20] she does everything that keeps the most [01:22] installed WordPress plugin in the world [01:25] connected to the community that made it [01:27] successful. We talked about what it's [01:29] actually like to build a community [01:31] presence inside a 21 million install [01:34] company. Yes, you got that number right. [01:36] why she thinks contributing to open [01:38] source is a brand investment and how the [01:40] connection she made with the Elementor [01:42] founders at a tiny word camp in Israel [01:45] many years ago eventually led to all of [01:47] this. Let's get to it. Welcome to [01:50] Community and Code, the podcast where we [01:51] talk to the human beings behind the [01:53] commits. And I'm here today with Miriam [01:55] Schwab. Miriam is a head of WordPress at [02:00] Elementor. uh longtime WordPress uh [02:03] developer, contributor, uh been in a lot [02:06] of WordPressy things for a very long [02:08] time. Um speaker, uh mentor, all sorts [02:12] of things. Miriam, welcome to the show [02:14] and tell us about yourself. [02:16] >> Well, thank you for having me. Um about [02:19] myself. Well, I I got into WordPress [02:24] when I was actually providing freelance [02:28] services um for content writing. That's [02:32] what I was doing first. My degree is in [02:34] English English literature and that [02:35] seemed like a pretty natural progression [02:38] from that. But the truth is that when I [02:42] started studying in university, I [02:44] started I was studying computer science [02:46] actually. But um I had just moved to [02:50] Israel and while I knew Hebrew quite [02:52] well, there's a difference between [02:54] knowing Hebrew for like standard [02:57] conversation and studying computer [02:58] science in Hebrew. [03:00] >> That is a whole other level. And I found [03:03] that I really just didn't know what they [03:05] were talking about. Like I didn't know [03:07] what was going on. I didn't know what [03:09] the words meant. Um, and so I decided to [03:14] switch into basically the only thing [03:15] that was taught in English at the time [03:16] in Israel, which was computer, which was [03:18] English literature. I've always had a [03:20] dual love for technology and act and and [03:24] literature. Actually avid reader. Um, I [03:27] do also enjoy writing, but also have [03:31] loved technology since I was a kid. Um, [03:34] my dad bought us our first like PC. I [03:38] don't know how old I was, like maybe [03:39] eight. But he was he bought two [03:42] actually. First he had one and I think [03:44] we were driving him crazy. We're like [03:45] especially me that we were always we [03:47] always wanted to use it. It was so cool [03:49] that he actually got a second one for us [03:51] in his office space in our house. Like [03:53] he would be on one and we I well I would [03:55] be on the other. Um and he would buy me [03:57] these coding books where they would just [04:00] have the code on like printed pages like [04:02] this old school, right? [04:04] >> Yeah. and I would type it in and then it [04:06] would turn into like a snake game or [04:07] something and I was like amazed. And he [04:09] would also buy me these magazines. Um I [04:12] think it was called 321 contact. It was [04:14] like a science magazine and you know it [04:17] was about like nature science and tech [04:20] science. I always loved the things about [04:21] space and all that. Anyway, so I always [04:23] had like very strong interest uh and [04:27] love for where technology was going. Um, [04:29] but it just the the way things worked [04:31] out was that I studied English [04:33] literature, which I actually really [04:34] loved. Um, but then after I finished it, [04:37] I figured, okay, I'm going to work in [04:38] that kind of space, which I did. But [04:40] then what was happening was the content [04:43] that I was writing was going into [04:45] websites. And the websites were way more [04:48] interesting to me than the content I was [04:49] writing. I was like, and I like I was [04:52] enamored with the internet and what it [04:54] offered. Made so many things accessible [04:57] to all of us. you know any qu now you [05:00] know with AI it's like a whole other [05:01] level but then already just the idea [05:03] that I could search for information and [05:05] get it and um and that websites gave [05:07] people a way to [05:10] be in front of many other people so I [05:14] started to teach myself to build [05:15] websites um that was the other wonderful [05:18] amazing thing about the internet that um [05:20] it was very embedded in an open-source [05:24] philosophy and approach and that's what [05:26] made it what it is so people also share [05:28] share a lot of information online um so [05:31] I could learn from others like basically [05:32] I would just search for okay how do I do [05:34] this how do I do that you know Stack [05:35] Overflow all that kind of stuff and then [05:37] uh yeah so I taught myself to build [05:39] websites and started to offer that as a [05:40] service and then things went from there [05:44] >> I remember the very first time I [05:48] experienced the internet I was probably [05:50] at a library on one of their computers [05:52] they just barely got like computers [05:54] hooked up to the internet or something [05:56] probably dialup I don't know It had to [05:58] have been dialup. Um, and like like that [06:02] was like when Yahoo [06:04] was like what you used and um like I [06:09] mean there was a couple other like [06:10] directories but like Yahoo was the thing [06:13] and like there was just like just like [06:15] lists of links and you didn't know what [06:17] any of the links were and you would [06:19] click on a link at random and it would [06:20] take you to some weird site. you're [06:21] like, "Okay, this is interesting." And [06:23] then at the bottom of that weird site, [06:24] there'd be like [06:25] >> uh find the next uh site in this web [06:28] ring. [06:29] >> And then you would click on that and [06:30] you'd get to some other random site that [06:32] was tangentially related to the last [06:34] site you had on. And then you just get [06:35] into these like you deep rabbit holes of [06:38] like weird interlin [06:41] pieces like parts of because the only [06:42] way that you would know [06:45] how like the only way that you would [06:46] find another site was from some other [06:49] site that might have linked to it [06:50] through like a web ring or a guest book [06:52] or like something like because there [06:54] wasn't there wasn't there wasn't ranking [06:57] in search like Google search engine [07:00] ranking wasn't a thing like it would [07:02] like there was no Google like it was [07:03] just like a bunch of just random text [07:06] pages that had a hyperlink that took you [07:09] someplace like you had no idea where you [07:11] were going. [07:12] >> Right. Totally. It was a weird and [07:15] wonderful thing. It was like we all [07:17] could get access to other people's [07:20] weird, random, cool, fascinating, [07:23] strange like ideas and representations [07:26] of themselves. And it was so [07:28] interesting. Like that was the other [07:31] thing that I really loved about the [07:32] internet specifically like beyond [07:34] computers and technology was that you [07:37] could become you could just you know [07:40] talk to someone regardless of where they [07:42] were [07:43] >> and hear their thoughts and communicate [07:46] with them. Whereas in the past it was a [07:49] phone call was doable but okay that [07:51] wasn't gonna happen with like strangers [07:53] and you know maybe email at some point [07:57] but like that was a whole other level of [07:59] connection with people removing the [08:02] constraint of [08:04] geographic proximity which was always a [08:07] type of constraint and that also was so [08:09] cool to me. [08:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So like every one [08:12] of these these web pages on the internet [08:14] on the the very early internet like [08:16] represented a single human being [08:18] somewhere else in the world that was [08:21] completely different and and separate [08:22] from you that you would never have expo [08:24] been exposed to previously. And I I've [08:26] told this story before but I paid for [08:29] access to a BBS before I paid for access [08:31] to the internet. So like I was like even [08:34] even while I was going to the library [08:36] and like like browsing online, the thing [08:38] that I found most interesting was [08:40] hanging out with people in chat rooms. [08:42] Um, [08:43] >> and like there that that was also like a [08:46] weird weird wild wonderful space of like [08:50] like the dialup and then like hyper term [08:54] and like like logging into this like [08:58] textbased thing and like navigating [09:00] through like an interconnected uh web of [09:03] these like there's like a network that I [09:05] uh that I subscribe to like there is a [09:07] network of these BBS servers and so you [09:09] would pick which server in which city [09:11] you would want to hang out in um yeah uh [09:16] so so you got you got started writing uh [09:19] on websites and then you started getting [09:21] interested in websites when when we met [09:24] I think the first time we met it was uh [09:26] Word Camp San Diego or no Word Camp US [09:28] in San Diego. Um and uh at the time uh [09:33] it was the tail end I think of Stratic [09:35] because I think like you were uh you [09:37] were just like it it had had not yet [09:40] been announced that Elementor had [09:41] acquired Stratic which was your agency. [09:44] Um so where is the where is the [09:46] intervening years between like uh making [09:49] your first website to uh running your [09:52] own agency that gets acquired by [09:54] Elementor? Like what is what happens in [09:56] the in between time? So actually I went [09:59] agency [10:01] tech company startup that was stratic. [10:04] Stratic was a platform for publishing [10:06] WordPress website [10:08] right [10:09] >> and then acquisition by elementor. So [10:11] >> basically it went like this. [10:14] >> Discovered that I love websites. Start [10:16] building websites. Start to add that as [10:19] an offering in addition to content. [10:22] Start to push that more as an offering [10:24] because it was much more fun for me. Um, [10:26] and then that like positioned me to be [10:28] one of the first people to offer [10:29] WordPress as a professional solution, [10:32] not just as a blogging platform for [10:34] amateurs uh, in Israel actually. So I [10:38] was well positioned when people started [10:40] to turn around around version three of [10:42] WordPress and were like, "Oh, actually [10:44] this is a great option for our company [10:46] or organization websites. Who can do [10:49] that for us?" Oh, Miriam, because I was [10:50] already I was already doing it and [10:52] people like kind of started, you know, [10:53] it's like word of mouth and whatever. [10:55] So, so started to do that and building [10:58] custom WordPress websites for uh [11:00] companies, a lot of tech companies and [11:02] large nonprofits that you know needed [11:04] specific attention for their activity. [11:07] Um it was just me at first and then grew [11:09] it out to be an agency. So did that for [11:11] 13 years. All along the way, I did have [11:13] ideas for products. [11:15] >> Like especially as the years went on, I [11:16] had like I had more and more of like a a [11:19] push to move into the product space, but [11:23] >> I I gave it a few goes, but um at the [11:26] time, so like I had I was having kids [11:28] and I was, you know, they were little [11:30] and the agency and I had to force myself [11:33] to realize that like you really have to [11:35] learn to say no even to yourself. like I [11:38] when I bit off more than I could chew, [11:40] too many things paid a price. So I left [11:43] that and kept building sites and really [11:45] enjoyed it. Like that was like 13 years [11:47] of offering services. Um it was always [11:51] interesting because the companies were [11:53] interesting or the organizations like [11:56] that made the work also meaningful and [11:57] also each one had their own you know [12:00] unique take or need and so we had to [12:03] learn to do things that we hadn't done [12:04] before. there was constant learning [12:05] curve but at a certain point it did [12:07] start to feel like okay I've done this [12:10] for like quite a while also my kids were [12:12] getting bigger and I wanted like a a [12:16] next challenge [12:18] and I had always I had really wanted to [12:21] move into the product space and then [12:23] that timing was around the start of the [12:26] Jamstack trend [12:29] >> and um I read a blog post by Matt Bilman [12:32] the one of the co-founders of Netlefi [12:35] where he did a case study where he [12:37] generated a static version of a [12:38] WordPress site and of course performance [12:40] was better and you know all that the [12:43] scalability. I was like oh my goodness [12:45] that's really cool. I I could see that [12:47] Jamstack had issues because it led [12:50] people to having to do I don't know how [12:52] else to describe it. Too many [12:54] somersaults in the air to achieve the [12:55] same thing that WordPress was [12:58] >> you know like you're reinventing the [12:59] wheel the whole time. [13:00] >> Yeah. But I thought, what if we combine [13:03] these two worlds, give people WordPress [13:05] as their like uh source of truth where [13:08] they work and they know how to work and [13:10] marketing teams feel comfortable, but [13:12] that's like hidden. It's uh it's almost [13:14] like a staging site and then they deploy [13:16] a static version of the site to the [13:18] internet and then that site is super [13:20] fast, resilient, scalable, like it [13:22] solves all their issues. A lot of the [13:25] companies that came on board with [13:27] Stratic, it was driven by their CISOs or [13:30] someone who was like a a CTO type person [13:34] who couldn't stand this the company was [13:37] running a WordPress site. They were not [13:39] sleeping at night because of it. These [13:41] were people who were like let's say they [13:42] were tech companies a lot of them you [13:45] know their tech stack is super high-end [13:47] you know um with an eye towards the [13:50] future but then their marketing team is [13:52] using what they saw as like a legacy [13:53] platform but the marketing team wanted [13:55] it because it was their power tool. So [13:58] Stratic bridged those two groups within [14:00] the company gave the marketing company [14:02] team what they wanted and then the tech [14:04] team or the tech leaders could sleep at [14:06] night. So um that was like the vision of [14:08] it and it ended up coming to fruition [14:10] with uh Fortune 500 companies using it, [14:12] governments, the UN um you know all [14:15] sorts. So um so built it up raised uh [14:19] venture capital funding for that and did [14:21] that for like six years. I was in some [14:23] startup accelerators at the beginning [14:25] which was a great experience. The whole [14:26] thing was a great experience like wild [14:28] fun great learning experience. Met [14:30] amazing people lots of sleepless nights [14:33] for me and my co-founder and our team. a [14:35] lot of pain and suffering also building [14:38] a startup is you you have to go into [14:41] with a lot of uh emotional strength or [14:43] something. But um but yeah and then uh [14:49] Elementor I knew the founders um they I [14:53] met them first when I was organizing [14:55] word camps in Israel. So, one of the [14:56] first ones that I did, they sponsored at [14:59] the time. They were like three guys with [15:02] like a folding table that was like they [15:03] were so small. And um I think the first [15:06] time they sponsored it was like [15:07] pre-elementor. They had um a product [15:09] before that that they called Pojo. It [15:11] was like a theme that was more [15:13] customizable, but then they took that to [15:14] the next level with Elementor. um but [15:16] they would sponsor and so we always [15:17] stayed in touch um and were friends and [15:20] then they were watching Stratic and had [15:23] an eye on it and and that's where we [15:26] ended up but when I saw you in San Diego [15:29] first of all that was a weird word camp [15:31] remember that [15:32] >> like co [15:34] >> it was it was it was the first thing [15:36] postcoid I think yeah it was the first [15:38] big event postco and people were [15:40] freaking out about it too like they [15:42] >> don't stand too close to me wear many [15:45] masks Y it was really limited. It was [15:47] like 100 people. [15:50] >> It was more than 100 people. [15:52] >> More. It was like some really small [15:54] amount. [15:54] >> It was definitely small for for a word [15:56] camp for sure. [15:57] >> Yeah, it was. I I really think it wasn't [15:59] more than 200 people. I remember the [16:00] number being like super small. Um but it [16:03] was right like like right after like [16:06] maybe the week after Estratic had joined [16:09] Elementor like we were super new there. [16:12] I was trying to figure out like I I felt [16:15] a little bit like what am I doing here? [16:17] >> Yeah. [16:18] >> Do [16:19] um and it was the first time I went to [16:21] an event with Elementor. [16:23] >> Um [16:24] and I was just I was just like trying to [16:27] figure out my place in the in the [16:29] company like from that perspective. So [16:32] yeah, that's met. [16:33] >> Yeah. No, I I remember that. I remember [16:35] you like talking about how like your [16:37] your company was just acquired and you [16:39] really didn't know what your title was [16:42] or what you would be doing anymore, but [16:44] like here you are. [16:46] >> Yeah. They're like obviously you should [16:48] go to Word Camp because like you know [16:51] they know they know me. They knew me and [16:53] like and my involvement in the WordPress [16:54] community. So if anyone's going to go to [16:55] word camp with elementary it should be [16:57] me. like I didn't yet feel like part of [17:00] the team and [17:03] yeah it was it was very it was like a [17:06] bit awkward for me. So yeah that that's [17:10] kind of the journey more or less from [17:12] agency to stratic to elements. Uh, I [17:16] want to take a a step back and I want to [17:18] ask, uh, was there ever like like was [17:21] there ever something else that you [17:23] looked at besides WordPress or have you [17:25] been like deep into WordPress from day [17:28] one? [17:30] >> You know, sometimes when I've been [17:31] interviewed in the past, they're like, [17:33] uh, what are your other interests and [17:34] hobbies? You know, that kind of thing. [17:37] I'm like, I I'm just I have none. [17:42] I have always been all in on WordPress [17:45] like [17:47] you know I think one of the there's like [17:49] a few reasons for that. Uh I always [17:51] found it really fun and interesting. [17:53] There's always something new to learn [17:54] which is which matters to me. So it was [17:56] it was not boring. Um and really the [18:00] people like I really just loved meeting [18:02] the community. When I started going to [18:04] like more global work camps, I, you [18:07] know, I met people that I had been [18:08] following or connected with online and [18:10] then you meet them in person, it's a [18:11] whole other story. [18:13] And I just, you know, I really loved [18:15] meeting people and seeing what they were [18:16] working on. And it just continuously [18:19] stayed interesting and fun and nice, [18:22] like just a really nice, pleasant, [18:24] um, good-hearted, I would say, like I [18:27] don't know, community. So, so I've I've [18:30] always been in it. You know, obviously [18:32] throughout the years as things develop [18:35] and evolve like on on the web and in [18:38] tech, I've looked at other solutions to [18:41] see if, you know, I don't want to be [18:42] left behind and I don't, you know, I [18:44] want to make sure that also, let's say, [18:46] in my agency day days, to make sure that [18:48] we're offering the right solution for [18:49] them. But every time I tested something [18:51] out, I got frustrated by it. It was [18:53] always limited. Um it just it was never [18:57] as good and it was I never felt as good [19:00] working with it. So uh you know I dabble [19:02] but like in the end just just stuck with [19:05] it and [19:07] yeah I'm like a onetrick pony. [19:10] I mean, you know, like I I sort of had a [19:13] similar experience when I was [19:14] freelancing is like um when I first [19:17] started freelancing, um I was working [19:19] for a company and I was like a contract [19:22] freelancer and they sort of had their [19:24] own way of doing things which involved [19:27] um getting like doing your whole design [19:30] in Photoshop and then using the slicing [19:33] tool to like make a HTML like tablebased [19:37] website out of that. Um that was like [19:39] the very early days. Um so that was all [19:42] like just straight up HTML. But um but [19:46] we also used Zen Cart uh whenever there [19:49] was an e-commerce platform. So I got [19:51] pretty good at at styling that. But when [19:53] I broke away and started freelancing on [19:55] my own, um Zen Cart was still a thing [19:58] that I was doing for a little bit. Um uh [20:00] just because I was familiar with it. But [20:02] like I played a little bit in Jumla. I [20:04] played a little bit in Magento. Um but [20:08] uh but WordPress was the thing like when [20:10] I started using it for myself like that [20:13] was just so much easier when especially [20:15] like because at the time I think what I [20:17] was doing was like I had found a script [20:20] that would essentially like it would be [20:22] you'd make an HTML page and then there's [20:24] like a little JavaScript uh thing that [20:25] you would put in there and then so like [20:27] this area of the page is editable from [20:31] some kind of like a backend kind of [20:33] thing through this JavaScript thing and [20:35] it would actually write changes to the [20:37] HTML, right? Um, and that was like that [20:40] was like the thing that I would do if if [20:42] somebody needed to update their site on [20:44] their own, um, was was write that in. [20:47] And I was like, when I found WordPress, [20:49] it's like, okay, so that's easier and [20:52] there's so much more stuff here. Like, [20:54] why am I ever doing anything else like [20:56] that? Um, and I think there was a period [20:58] of time where I'm like, okay, let's make [21:00] sure I'm doing the right thing. And I [21:01] tried all the other CMSs and and [21:03] installed them and gave them a go. And I [21:06] think Expression Engine was a thing that [21:08] was big at the time. And like uh [21:11] >> you know what I even tried for some [21:12] reason? Cold Fusion. I don't know if you [21:14] remember that. [21:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [21:17] >> I I don't think I ever tried Cold [21:18] Fusion. That seemed a little bit too [21:20] daunting. [21:20] >> Buying a giant book. [21:22] >> Yeah. [21:22] >> And I was like that seems cool. There [21:25] was something cool about it, but [21:26] everything was just like more [21:28] complicated. [21:29] >> Yeah. [21:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I and you know I think [21:32] about like you know I work at Pantheon [21:33] and obviously we do um Drupal and [21:36] WordPress and even now like I talk to [21:39] Drupal developers and I've gone to a [21:40] couple Drupal events and it's like okay [21:42] like I get I get what Drupal is good at. [21:46] It's also not the thing that I would use [21:50] because it is there's there's a learning [21:53] curve. There's a very steep learning [21:55] curve or or there's like there's a whole [21:58] category of professionals that exist in [22:01] the Drupal ecosystem that WordPress has [22:03] never had because it's never needed it [22:05] because it's just the people that like [22:07] manage the the the website. like not the [22:11] people that put the content into the [22:12] website, but the people that manage like [22:14] the configuration and like structure of [22:17] the website. It's like that's the [22:19] category of people like we talk about in [22:21] WordPress like there's sort of site [22:22] builders and like maybe they're not [22:24] writing the content or whatever, but [22:25] there's sort of but you don't really [22:26] need that. Like it's it's generally [22:29] speaking uh accessible enough for for [22:33] anyone. So, like I totally like relate [22:34] to what you're saying, obviously, like [22:36] we're both here, but yeah, I'm always [22:38] I'm always interested in in the the [22:42] decision-making process that that leads [22:44] people to like kind of stick with a [22:47] thing for for as long as I mean, you and [22:49] I both have. [22:51] >> I think it's like WordPress made the [22:53] decisions for me. What I mean is every [22:56] time I tried to get something to happen [22:58] in WordPress, it happened like I was [23:00] able to make it happen more or less. [23:03] Whereas in other platforms, I wasn't [23:05] able to. So I kept choosing the one that [23:09] enabled me to do what I wanted to do. I [23:13] am what I call a fake developer. And [23:16] what I mean is I [23:19] like bar I sat at some point in writing [23:22] code and I hated it. I hated it. I don't [23:24] want to do that. I want to get things [23:26] together. I love tech and I understand [23:28] it. So that makes me really annoying [23:31] because like I back on things from I've [23:34] managed development teams and so I've [23:37] learned about that. But um I'll never be [23:40] the one sitting and writing code. So I [23:42] want to work with a platform that allows [23:44] me this like weird fake developery type [23:46] person to achieve what I want to [23:48] achieve. And and that and it was always [23:51] WordPress. [23:53] Yeah, the thing that that kept me around [23:55] was [23:57] uh especially at the beginning was [23:59] anytime I had a question about how to do [24:00] X, there was always an answer. [24:03] >> Whether it was whether it was in the [24:05] codeex or a blog post or something like [24:07] I there was always an answer somewhere. [24:09] Um whereas whenever I used something [24:11] else, maybe there is an answer or maybe [24:14] there wasn't or maybe there was a forum [24:16] but maybe that forum hasn't been posted [24:18] to in three months. Like [24:19] >> right [24:20] >> like it was never it was never [24:21] consistent but WordPress was always [24:23] consistent for sure. [24:24] >> Totally. [24:25] >> And now you're the head of WordPress. [24:26] What does that mean? [24:29] >> So a nice segue, right? [24:32] >> Speaking of which, [24:35] it is the nice segue. So what does it [24:37] mean? Well, I I was at like elementary [24:42] for like six months and then uh the [24:44] founders said, "Would you like to take [24:46] on this position? We don't know what to [24:48] call it." And we don't exactly have a [24:52] job description. We know we need someone [24:55] like you doing something like this. [24:58] >> Sure. [24:59] >> And what do you think? So [25:03] I I was [25:04] >> How was the How was the position [25:06] pitched? like what was the what were the [25:07] things that that they knew that they [25:10] needed? So I could see after joining [25:14] actually I could even see before joining [25:16] from the outside um [25:19] Elementor the their flagship product the [25:22] page builder or editor whatever you want [25:24] to call it uh is obviously very popular [25:27] right it's most popular plugin it powers [25:30] over 20 million sites um and from the [25:33] beginning it caught on and uh grew quite [25:35] quickly [25:37] but as the company grew and hired talent [25:41] ent and the people at the company are [25:43] very talented. They didn't come from [25:45] within WordPress. [25:47] So [25:48] you had the founders who were WordPressy [25:51] people but you know they're founders so [25:53] they can only be so involved in [25:57] community related you know ecosystem [26:00] stuff. [26:02] Um and and the the rest of the team, [26:06] they came from other tech companies, you [26:08] know, um and not necessarily even from [26:10] open source. And when you're working in [26:13] open source, there's definitely like a [26:17] culture to that, you know. Um and [26:22] there were a few things that were [26:24] lacking. It's not just um community. [26:26] It's like um how do we communicate with [26:29] all the levels of the ecosystem and h [26:33] how are our relationships with all of [26:36] the companies essentially that are [26:38] contributing to WordPress by creating [26:41] other products where we have shared [26:42] users? [26:44] um how do we make sure always that the [26:48] way that we're deploying our products to [26:50] the repo is 1,000% aligned with the [26:54] guidelines. [26:56] There were some missteps before I took [26:57] on this position and it wasn't out of um [27:01] it wasn't because they were trying they [27:03] trying to not meet the guidelines. It [27:05] was because there wasn't really someone [27:07] who could fully be on top of it and or [27:11] something that I do on an ongoing basis. [27:13] Check with the plug-in team whenever we [27:18] want to implement something in the [27:19] plug-in that we think should be reviewed [27:22] and to make sure that it really aligns [27:23] with the guidelines. And only if they [27:24] say yes, that's okay, do we go ahead [27:26] with it. We don't want to ever be doing [27:30] something that's not okay. So, we're [27:31] very we're super careful. And that's [27:34] something also [27:37] um setting up our five for the future [27:38] program. Um that was an interesting [27:41] process for me. Uh I had to you know [27:44] research all of that and figure out [27:47] where we can even do that. We had to [27:48] first we had to figure out internally [27:49] are we going to um align or just uh [27:54] contribute internal resources like [27:56] people time but we we couldn't um [27:59] everyone was too tight. So the so then [28:03] the decision was to sponsor [28:04] contributors. Okay, but how do we do [28:05] that? How do we sponsor contributors in [28:07] a meaningful way? Which teams need [28:10] contribution? Um so I had like I spoke [28:12] to a ton of people in the community um [28:15] you know the from the contribution [28:18] related teams on WordPress.org to [28:20] contributors themselves to figure out [28:22] how we could start. I think the first [28:25] sponsor contributor was on the [28:26] performance team because at that time [28:29] that was a big pain point. Oh, and um [28:31] Google was working on it and they they [28:33] asked us if we want to like work on it [28:35] with them and like make you know help [28:37] with that team. So that's where we [28:38] started. It seemed like a good good [28:41] place to fill in the blanks. Um and then [28:43] contri grew it from there. At this point [28:46] we have contributors to performance, [28:49] plug-in review, theme review, hosting, [28:53] AI, and I I think something else but I [28:56] can't remember. Um so and you know I [29:00] manage that and stay in touch with them [29:02] on ongoing basis get reports on what's [29:03] being done to try to make sure that our [29:06] contribution is valuable. So um so that [29:09] was another thing and it's generally [29:14] anything related to element within [29:16] WordPress. It's a very broad uh position [29:19] and it involves also partnership type of [29:20] rel like activity whether it's like with [29:23] a dollar sign attached or not. Um, I've [29:27] kind of become the face of Elementor [29:30] within the community. So, that's helpful [29:33] for people who are trying to reach out [29:34] to Elementor and having a hard time. [29:36] That was very much the case before I [29:38] took on the position. Like, if you want [29:39] to talk to someone Elementor, like good [29:41] luck. It wasn't again that they didn't [29:42] want to be talked to. It was that there [29:46] wasn't someone to do that. So, people [29:48] reach out to me directly. They find me [29:49] wherever or they know me like and it's [29:51] different kinds of questions. they want [29:54] to, you know, increase compatibility [29:56] with Elementor and they like need some [29:58] dev input or um they created something [30:02] for Elementor and they want to show it [30:03] to us and like whatever or like there's [30:05] it's hosting companies they're like this [30:07] they're encountering some issue in the [30:09] past that that kind of communication was [30:12] full of friction. Now we have a lot of [30:14] shared Slack channels with a lot of [30:16] partner companies in the space and it's [30:18] great. We can really like make sure that [30:21] all of our shared users have good [30:22] experiences. [30:24] Um yeah, I don't know. It's like it's so [30:26] many things. I at some point I started [30:28] documenting what I do because I was like [30:29] what am I doing? [30:32] But um but it's it's always interesting [30:35] because things are always changing um [30:38] and I'm always learning. So yeah, it's [30:40] it's an interesting position. [30:43] I know that for me as as a developer [30:46] advocate like I went from you know being [30:49] on an engineering team where like what I [30:51] do in a day or in a week is very [30:55] specific. It's like we have these sprint [30:57] goals, we have these specific tickets, [30:58] we are have a cadence like this stuff [31:02] needs to get done by this date and and [31:04] that's just what you're working on. And [31:07] in developer relations that's [31:10] kind of a lot more wibbly wobbly timy [31:13] wimy like you kind of have to like it [31:15] really demands that you are self [31:18] motivated because otherwise you're just [31:20] going to be twiddling your thumbs and [31:21] like who knows what what totally like [31:23] how are you going to prioritize this [31:24] thing over that thing or whatever or [31:26] you'll just get pulled in a million [31:28] different directions and never be able [31:29] to focus on anything and context [31:31] switching is already like you know huge [31:33] like I imagine that is pretty similar [31:36] for you as well. So, how do you sort of [31:38] like yeah prioritize what it is that [31:42] you're thinking about in any given day? [31:44] >> Oh my gosh, totally. So, first of all, [31:46] you have to be a self-starter. At least [31:47] I have to be. Also, [31:50] >> it's sort of like in many ways it's sort [31:51] of entrepreneurial, isn't it? [31:53] >> Oh, totally. Which is amazing. And I um [31:56] I've said that internally actually that [31:58] uh I I actually didn't know how I was [32:00] going to last at elementary. Not because [32:03] of them, but because I had never been an [32:06] employee before. [32:09] And I was afraid of the like that what [32:13] would happen is why I had never been an [32:15] employee, which is that people would [32:16] start telling me what to do. Not that I [32:18] don't I I love getting feedback and [32:20] input and direction. I love it. But when [32:22] someone's like, "You must do this, you [32:24] must do that." And like, I don't know, [32:25] that kind of thing, which is what I [32:27] figured it's like to be an employee, I [32:28] was just like, "That's not for me." But [32:30] this position is very entrepreneurial [32:32] and a lot of what I do feels like what I [32:34] did when I was the CEO of Stratic. [32:37] >> Um, because a lot of work of leading a [32:41] company, and just I'm just to put that [32:43] just a disclaimer, I'm not saying that [32:45] I'm leading Elementor at all. I am not. [32:48] But when I was leading a company, I a [32:52] lot of it was very relationship driven [32:54] and also very a lot of like staying [32:57] current on developments, competitive, [32:59] you know, um developments, [33:03] tech, all that kind of stuff. It was [33:05] like a combination of both. And I do a [33:06] lot of that now. Like I actually create [33:08] an internal weekly newsletter about AI [33:11] and WordPress now for example [33:13] >> to keep everyone up to date on where [33:15] it's going, what other companies are [33:18] developing. Um to bring that all [33:19] together. I think that the more [33:21] information anyone has, the better the [33:23] decisions they can make. And that's how [33:25] I was a CEO and that's kind of what I'm [33:27] doing now. So, but like I so a lot of [33:30] what I do is is selfarter type stuff [33:32] where I just see a need and I I work to [33:36] fill that gap. In the beginning, there [33:38] was a lot of stuff that I was trying to [33:40] fix like um you know our for the future [33:45] program even how we sponsored word camps [33:47] I it it wasn't my vibe. Let's just say [33:51] that it like I didn't like it. I wanted [33:53] us to be more involved. like I was the [33:56] first person to speak on behalf of [33:58] Elementor. Like they had never had [34:00] speakers, [34:01] >> that kind of thing. But then I created a [34:02] program encouraging other people to [34:03] apply to speak and now I'm not the only [34:05] speaker which is amazing. Um so there's [34:08] like a lot of things that I Oh, also I [34:09] wanted us to sponsor other word camps [34:12] around the world even if we're not going [34:13] there just to support them. So set up [34:15] like a process and like a way to do [34:17] that. Um I'm very fortunate that the [34:20] company and the leadership basically [34:22] like just support and believe in me and [34:25] trust me. So um the message to me more [34:28] or less is you do you [34:31] now go forth. So and I report to the CEO [34:36] um and you know I love when I get [34:39] direction and feedback and ideas from [34:40] him but mostly I'm just doing what I [34:43] think I should do. So there's like stuff [34:45] that I maintain [34:47] and then there's stuff that comes up [34:49] that needs attention. So obviously and [34:51] especially if it's like um critical that [34:54] will get priority. Um and then there's [34:56] just new challenges or relationships or [34:59] things or whatever that uh come come my [35:01] way that uh that I pick up. Attending [35:04] events on behalf of Elementor that also [35:06] is something that wasn't really [35:08] happening before. I think it's important [35:09] for us to have like an actual person at [35:12] these events. Elementary is such a [35:13] significant player that you know for [35:16] example at Cloudfest which I'm not at um [35:18] because I couldn't get there in the end [35:19] but we should be at Cloudfest. We're a [35:22] leading web company. How can we not be [35:24] there? So I started going on behalf of [35:26] Elementor. [35:28] Um yeah it's just it's it's a great [35:32] position. I'm very fortunate that I have [35:33] the the backing and belief of of the [35:36] company's leadership and um that allows [35:38] me to bring to to fruition my my [35:42] entrepreneurial spirit which I I think [35:45] would be hard if I couldn't. [35:47] >> You mentioned five for the future and [35:49] and sponsoring word camps and things and [35:52] um wearing my uh WP community collective [35:56] president hat for a minute. um like [35:59] obviously you know sponsored [36:02] contribution or or contribution [36:05] with with compensation uh and [36:08] sponsorships in general like this is [36:10] like it shouldn't be a controversial [36:12] topic but yet like a lot of companies [36:14] that are using WordPress aren't [36:15] necessarily giving back to the ecosystem [36:17] or giving back to the the the open- [36:19] source uh project itself like talk [36:22] through that conversation within [36:24] Elementor of like building up this [36:26] program which like does does like how [36:31] how does how do you see contribution in [36:33] in how it works at Elementor and how [36:35] does like leadership or your your you [36:37] know CEO that you report to like how [36:39] does how does that sort of internal like [36:43] financial math uh align with like the [36:45] ideological goal of like yeah we need to [36:48] actually contribute back to this thing [36:49] that we're like essentially profiting [36:51] off of. [36:55] So they knew that they wanted to set up [36:58] a fight for the future program. Like [36:59] when they it wasn't like I had even [37:01] brought it up or someone I don't know [37:03] what the internal conversation was. I [37:04] had been there not that long. I was [37:06] still trying to figure out who I am and [37:07] what I am and all that kind of stuff. Um [37:09] I don't remember that we had actually [37:11] discussed for the future. I think it was [37:13] probably something that I felt like they [37:14] should set up but I also didn't think it [37:15] was necessarily my place to bring it up. [37:17] Like I didn't know how much I could you [37:19] know flag things yet. Uh, turns out that [37:23] Elementor is very much a company where [37:25] you can express your opinion, but I had [37:27] to learn that. Yeah, it's great. Um, [37:30] so when so that was actually like the [37:32] first thing that they tked me with like [37:33] get get us set up please with a five for [37:36] the future program. They didn't say how [37:38] except for like I mentioned when they [37:39] said we're going to sponsor like [37:40] financially rather than uh internally. [37:44] >> Go forth and do it. Um [37:47] why? Because it's the right thing to do. [37:50] That's it. So [37:52] when you have an open and also and we're [37:56] I think it's um very much to the credit [37:58] of uh Elementary's leadership that [38:00] that's their perspective. They knew they [38:02] needed to do this thing. They knew it [38:03] was the right thing to do. They needed [38:05] someone to like just set it up properly. [38:08] Um who uh is a WordPressy person. That's [38:11] what our CEO often says about me. Like [38:13] I'm WordPressy. And it's I think you [38:16] understand what that means. I think [38:17] other may think that sounds weird but I [38:20] like I I live and breathe the ecosystem [38:22] and I understand it nuances and you need [38:25] someone like that I think um especially [38:27] in a large organization like Elementor [38:29] that's very it's it's all about uh [38:32] WordPress. So um they knew it was the [38:35] right thing to do. So when you have an [38:37] open source product, I think a company [38:41] ends up making uh some decisions based [38:44] on [38:46] what is the right thing to do for that [38:49] community at some point. Like it's not [38:52] feasible for large for smaller [38:54] organizations. It really it often is not [38:56] no matter what anyone says. Like I know [38:59] what it's like when I was running my [39:01] agency. we were just running from like [39:03] after projects, you know, you're just [39:04] like finish one, you're like where's the [39:06] next project going to come from? There's [39:07] not much breathing room at all, [39:09] >> you know. Um, so I think people need to [39:13] like be realistic about their [39:14] expectations about who's contributing. [39:15] Like yes, that agency is profiting off [39:18] of WordPress. But [39:20] but what does that mean? It means that [39:22] maybe they can pay their uh other [39:26] contractors or employees and maybe give [39:27] themselves a living wage. You know what [39:29] I mean? Like often that's the case. So [39:31] have a little sympathy. Um but once you [39:36] have like a like a thriving word open [39:38] source project um product then it [39:40] becomes necessary. So there's like the [39:43] it's the right thing to do. But then I [39:46] think if we're going to look at it from [39:48] like a dry [39:50] financial perspective, [39:52] companies invest a lot of uh money in [39:56] things that don't have a direct ROI. [40:00] For example, [40:02] brand [40:04] brand is critical. I have learned the [40:06] importance of brand since joining [40:07] Elementor. I was very cynical about it. [40:12] And now I see how much it matters how a [40:15] brand as you know you have to have a [40:18] real product standing behind it that [40:19] gives people value. But when you that [40:21] and you have a brand wrapping it, [40:22] wrapping it up, it gives people a [40:25] certain sentiment or they have a certain [40:26] sentiment towards you and maintaining [40:28] that um growing it and investing it is [40:32] super important. So a company like [40:34] Elementor invests a lot in brands also [40:36] and I think that you can say that [40:40] investing in contributing back to open [40:43] source is a brand investment [40:48] to the ecosystem. It's like our brand is [40:51] that we are collaborative cooperative [40:54] um contributing we are doing the right [40:57] thing and we are good citizens of the [40:58] ecosystem. [41:00] So that's I think the [41:03] business side argument that can be made [41:07] for it. [41:08] >> Yeah. I mean obviously uh I'm involved [41:10] in a lot of these conversations as well. [41:11] all developer relations is very much uh [41:14] in the the sort of brand and less direct [41:19] ROI sort of side of things because like [41:23] I I I've said this before like [41:25] internally like the the stuff that I [41:27] that Devril produces the content and and [41:30] the the outputs that we produce very [41:33] often is maybe on a very long tail like [41:37] I'm not going to write a blog post [41:38] that's going to lead to uh 500 [41:41] incoming leads, right? I'm going to [41:43] write a blog post that someone's going [41:44] to read in two weeks and then in six [41:47] months they're going to remember that [41:48] blog post that I wrote something smart [41:50] about Pantheon doing something cool and [41:52] they're going to be like, "Oh, well, [41:53] we're looking for something for this [41:56] project that we're that we're coming to [41:57] and maybe they'll be part of the [41:59] conversation, right?" Like yeah I I [42:02] always get like whenever when ROI comes [42:04] into the conversation about like [42:05] sponsorships or about like open source [42:08] uh good Samaritanism [42:10] good Samaritanism [42:12] um or or like whatever uh like yeah it's [42:15] it's already like I I just like I just [42:17] smirk like whenever I hear ROI in those [42:19] conversations because like you're not [42:21] going to get ROI from any of that stuff [42:23] but what you're going to get is [42:24] something intangible. Um, and uh, John [42:27] Hawkins was on uh, a few episodes ago. [42:30] Um, and he he said that so John Hawkins [42:34] uh, used to lead a or co-lead a an [42:36] agency and they spent I think two years [42:39] just going to every word camp that they [42:41] possibly could. Um, and it was wild. It [42:45] was kind of insane. They uh, but what he [42:49] said that he learned come chemist out of [42:51] that is not ROI, it's return on [42:53] connection. Um because it's those [42:56] connections that you get from those [42:58] events, from meeting people and having [43:00] the conversation in person uh leads to [43:03] other opportunities. Maybe not today, [43:05] but like he was saying that like he they [43:07] got leads and he's gotten leads that are [43:10] like somebody he's never met before that [43:13] someone he did meet talked to their [43:15] friend and said, "Oh, you should talk to [43:17] this person because they're doing [43:18] something that's really similar to what [43:19] you're looking for." And like that [43:20] doesn't exist if you're not like having [43:22] the conversation in the first place. [43:24] >> Oh, totally. There's no question that [43:26] when I started going to word camps [43:29] around the world and speaking that it [43:32] had a huge impact on the future of my [43:35] career. At the time I would speak, I [43:38] don't know how many people would be in [43:39] the hall and I would get zero feedback. [43:41] You know, like often it's just like [43:42] thanks, bye. But then six months later [43:46] someone would get in touch for a web [43:48] project or you know all and I would [43:51] always say just took one person in the [43:53] audience that that talk meant something [43:55] to them that it was worth it but it's [43:57] stuff that that kind of activity it's [44:00] timeconuming it's expensive it's you [44:02] know it's very easy to say never mind we [44:05] live in a digital age I'm going to sit [44:06] here behind my screen and that will be [44:08] enough but you can't compare to the [44:11] power of a real connection [44:13] And it's the kind of thing that builds [44:15] up over time and you don't you can't [44:18] predict how like what is going to mean [44:20] and so you can't also be doing it [44:22] because you think at some point you're [44:24] going to get something out of it. I [44:26] started going um because I wanted to [44:29] connect more with the WordPress [44:30] community and I could see how impactful [44:35] it was for me to speak. I didn't know [44:36] what it was going to do, but I knew that [44:38] it was like it mattered and it meant [44:40] something for for my work. So, but how [44:45] it play out, I had no idea. [44:48] But it turned out to play out like in [44:50] many ways um very well. But I just loved [44:53] meeting the people. So like, you know, [44:55] you have to be in it because you love [44:57] the people. And if good stuff comes your [44:59] way, great. And by the way, it goes the [45:01] other way also. I've been very fortunate [45:04] to help many people along the way who [45:07] know me. Like it goes both ways. Like I [45:09] sometimes I think, "Wow, so good that [45:10] person knows me." Yeah. [45:12] >> You know, because I can help them out [45:14] with something. And um yeah, it's [45:17] definitely it's been a journey, but it's [45:19] it's worth it. [45:21] I want to I want to talk a little bit. [45:22] Uh this probably be the the last bit, [45:25] but I think that it's you you mentioned [45:27] a number and you mentioned it too like [45:30] uh when we were doing the live stream uh [45:32] for for Angie. Um [45:35] >> uh like the number of of Elementor [45:37] installs is some ridiculously high [45:40] number that I can't even fathom a [45:41] product uh being used that much. [45:45] um like what [45:48] was it always like was was it like that [45:50] when you joined first of all and then [45:53] what do you credit Elementor's [45:56] I mean objective success to [46:01] >> so Elementor has been growing at a fast [46:04] pace basically since it was launched I [46:05] can't remember the exact numbers but [46:07] like within I don't know 6 months or a [46:10] year of them launching uh Elementor they [46:13] had reached like million installs. It [46:15] was it was like a very short amount of [46:17] time and the growth hockey stick was [46:19] like crazy. [46:20] >> And then since then it's been growing. [46:22] Um when I joined it wasn't yet the most [46:26] popular plug-in in the repo. It was like [46:29] number three and it was like and we [46:31] would pay attention and then it's at one [46:33] point we're like oh my gosh it bypassed [46:35] Yoast. Yoast was like number two and we [46:37] went to number two and then one morning [46:39] we woke up and we're like we're number [46:41] one. It was crazy. [46:44] Um, so [46:46] why is it growing? [46:49] First of all, I think from the be like [46:50] in the start it was just really the [46:53] right product at the right time. It was [46:54] that combination which is like winning [46:56] the lottery. And I'm not saying it was [46:58] luck because they built a product that [47:00] people really wanted, but like they [47:01] built that product that people really [47:03] wanted at the exact right time. M [47:06] >> um there were some other products [47:08] already out there but they there the the [47:10] element approach gave people more [47:13] capabilities and then people just loved [47:15] it and they were just talking about it [47:16] and then they were sharing it and also I [47:18] think at that time at least I don't know [47:20] how long but it was the only the free [47:23] version they it took them a while until [47:25] they started offering the the pro [47:27] version. [47:28] Um, but I think that that like going all [47:32] in on open source like that was also uh [47:36] a key to their success. [47:38] Um, [47:40] they've been [47:42] uh good at listening to customer [47:44] feedback. There's a lot of complaints, [47:45] you know, that why don't you do this, [47:47] why don't you do that, but like if you [47:48] think about the scale, so the number is [47:50] now like 21 million um active installs, [47:54] which is crazy. [47:55] >> So just imagine how many opinions there [47:56] are there. [47:57] >> Sure. 21 million [47:59] >> basically. So, um, so obviously [48:02] elementary can't do everything. There's [48:04] a lot of one of the things that I I [48:06] couldn't believe when I joined because [48:08] they they're so big that like how much [48:12] they cared about like one person saying [48:14] something negative. [48:15] >> I'm like, you're so big. You're growing [48:17] at like I don't know how many sites a [48:19] day and you care that Joe over there. [48:23] But they cared and they were always [48:25] listening. Um, so I think that probably [48:28] plays a role as well. And then you know [48:30] just really talented people working [48:33] together. I have also learned so at [48:36] elementary [48:38] HR is super important in terms of hiring [48:41] the right talents. They they they'll [48:43] spend as long as it takes to fill a [48:45] position until they feel like more than [48:47] 100% that the the fit is right. Um and [48:51] there you know there's a lot of [48:52] appreciation for that and the the people [48:54] who work at element are really really [48:56] very brilliant and it's really fun [48:58] working with them everyone you know has [49:00] their like area of expertise and they [49:02] really are an expert in that area. So [49:05] whatever it is even like what I'm doing [49:07] whenever I'm doing anything so on the [49:09] one hand I'm kind of like a lone island. [49:11] I don't have a team. I report to the CEO [49:13] he's super busy. I'm like doing my own [49:15] thing. So but I work horizontally. So [49:18] like uh you know if we're sponsoring a [49:20] word camp I have to pull in finance, [49:22] legal design. If we're like going to [49:25] have a booth, right? Um and [49:30] everyone's just so smart and like brings [49:32] such value to the project that I the [49:34] output will be really good. So, so I [49:37] think that as well and of course our the [49:39] co-founders Ariel and Yoni, their vision [49:42] is very focused um and strategic and [49:44] they're always thinking and rethinking [49:48] and they're also if they hear this [49:50] they're probably not going to be like [49:52] how they're um they're like they have [49:56] humility meaning they don't think they [49:58] know everything as all we're all like [50:00] everyone is always discussing things and [50:01] yes they'll make a decision in the end [50:02] but um they don't think they know [50:04] everything And um yeah, I don't know. [50:07] It's like I guess it's a combination of [50:08] factors, but uh yeah, it's wild the [50:12] reach that the company has. [50:13] >> Yeah. [50:14] >> Yeah. [50:15] >> Yeah. [50:16] >> Well, thank you very much uh Miriam for [50:18] being on the show. Uh I'm hopefully [50:21] we'll get to meet someplace uh in the [50:24] next year. Uh I'm sure we tend to like [50:27] rotate in similar circles uh as it were. [50:30] Um, uh, where can people find you on the [50:34] internet? [50:35] >> So, actually, I just built myself a [50:37] website. [50:37] >> Oh, yeah. [50:38] >> Yeah. Miam Schwab.me. Someone took [50:40] miriam.com. [50:43] They're not doing anything with it. So, [50:44] I took miriam.me. Um, it's a WordPress [50:47] site that I built with AI. I was super [50:48] excited about it. So, you can I have a [50:50] contact form there and I have links, but [50:52] you can obviously find me on LinkedIn, [50:54] uh, TwitterX, [50:56] um, all the usual places. I'm there. Oh, [50:59] make WordPress slack, post status Slack, [51:03] >> all the slacks. Yeah, [51:04] >> all the slacks. [51:06] >> Uh, well, yeah, thanks again. Uh, thanks [51:08] for for being on the show. Thank you, [51:09] everyone who might be watching or [51:11] listening to this in the future, and [51:12] we'll see you on the internet. [51:14] >> Bye.  ## Highlights - Some career successes attributed to community involvement may have resulted from other factors like market timing or individual talent - Note: 🔍 Fallacy: Post Hoc #fallacy/post-hoc