Cover Up Culture Versus Exposure Culture - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Cover Up Culture Versus Exposure Culture 🔗 **Source:** [Cover Up Culture Versus Exposure Culture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFQh12cEWbk) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [church_leadership, coverup_culture, exposure_culture] > author: Remnant Radio > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFQh12cEWbk > date created: 2024-12-28 15:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Cover Up Culture Versus Exposure Culture >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate church leadership structures for biblical qualifications vs. anointing-based authority — 00:00 #church_leadership - [H2] Implement proper biblical discipline processes following Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5:20 — 15:45 #church_discipline - [H3] Assess whether congregants are treated as capable of discernment or too fragile for truth — 25:30 #congregational_care ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Remnant Radio YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/RemnantRadio) - [1 Timothy 3 - Elder Qualifications](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203&version=ESV) ## 📝 Summary - Remnant Radio hosts analyze two competing church cultures: cover-up culture that protects leaders through NDAs and silencing victims, versus exposure culture that publicly reveals misconduct - Cover-up culture prioritizes anointing over character qualifications and treats congregants as too fragile for truth, while exposure culture risks becoming mob-like without proper evidence standards - Biblical leadership requires character qualifications (1 Timothy 3), proper discipline procedures (Matthew 18, 1 Timothy 5:20), and treating all church members with dignity and transparency - The goal is balanced approach: exposing genuine misconduct while maintaining biblical standards for evidence and caring for victims rather than using them for platform building - Current church purification season is generally positive but requires wisdom to avoid extremes of either covering up sin or creating destructive mob mentality ## 📖 Main Content The hosts examine two cultural responses to church leadership failures. Cover-up culture operates through silencing mechanisms like NDAs, dismissing whistleblowers as "accusers of the brethren," and prioritizing institutional reputation over victim care. This approach views leaders as God's anointed representatives whose calling supersedes character qualifications, directly contradicting New Testament elder qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Exposure culture, while generally positive in obeying Ephesians 5:11 to "expose the works of darkness," risks becoming mob-like when it abandons biblical evidence standards or uses victims merely as ammunition for platform building. The hosts particularly praise Mike Winger's approach of providing counseling and paying for investigations rather than simply collecting stories. The discussion addresses the misapplication of Old Testament monarchy texts like the Tale of Three Kings, explaining that David's submission to Saul occurred within Israel's monarchical system, not the New Testament shepherding model for churches. Modern church leaders are shepherds, not kings, and must meet character qualifications regardless of their perceived anointing or ministry effectiveness. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Cover-up vs. Exposure Culture - Key idea: Two emerging church cultures with distinct approaches to leadership accountability - Evidence: "Cover-up culture versus exposure culture - looking at the good and the bad of both" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=135) — [H2] Cover-up Culture Definition - Key idea: Uses NDAs, labels whistleblowers as accusers, minimizes severity of abuse claims - Evidence: "They clamp down by labeling whistleblowers as accusers of the brethren" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=270) — [H3] Anointing Over Character Problem - Key idea: Cover-up culture prioritizes calling over biblical qualifications for leadership - Evidence: "Anointing and calling taking precedence over qualifications... renewed emphasis on 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1" #### ⏱️ [07:45](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=465) — [H2] Misapplication of David and Saul - Key idea: Tale of Three Kings misapplied to excuse modern church abuse - Evidence: "Israel was a monarchy... church is to be led by shepherds... monarchy is different from a church" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=740) — [H3] Mission and Vision Tied to Leader - Key idea: Churches create unique missions that require specific leaders, making them irreplaceable - Evidence: "Leader is intrinsically woven into mission and vision... when leader falls, whole thing falls apart" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=945) — [H1] Biblical Exposure Culture - Key idea: Ephesians 5:11 commands exposure of darkness, not coverup - Evidence: "Do not participate in works of darkness but instead expose them" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=1110) — [H2] Evidence Standards for Exposure - Key idea: Biblical exposure requires proper witnesses and evidence, not rumors or hunches - Evidence: "1 Timothy 5 says provided there's evidence on account of two or three witnesses" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=1335) — [H3] Danger of All Leaders Are Bad Mentality - Key idea: Exposure culture risks creating assumption that all church leadership is corrupt - Evidence: "Paul writes 'those who desire office of overseer desire good thing' because leadership had fallen into disrepute" #### ⏱️ [25:30](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=1530) — [H2] Cover-up Culture Views Congregants as Fragile - Key idea: Leadership assumes congregation cannot handle truth about misconduct - Evidence: "They view congregants as too fragile to handle the truth... only priests can understand scriptures" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=1725) — [H3] Expendable Congregants vs. Valuable Leaders - Key idea: Cover-up culture treats regular members as less important than high-profile leaders - Evidence: "These leaders are valuable... these other people are expendable... their lives not as important" #### ⏱️ [31:20](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=1880) — [H2] Whistleblowers Labeled as Devils - Key idea: Victims and critics systematically dismissed as accusers of brethren or demonically influenced - Evidence: "Spirit of accusation... anytime somebody has criticism, you just have spirit of accusation" #### ⏱️ [35:10](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=2110) — [H3] Bitter and Wounded Dismissal Tactic - Key idea: Cover-up culture focuses on victim's emotional state rather than truth claims - Evidence: "Just because someone's bitter doesn't mean something's not true... I care if they're speaking truth" #### ⏱️ [38:00](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=2280) — [H2] Jesus Had Prophetic Edge - Key idea: Biblical confrontation of sin often involves strong emotion and directness - Evidence: "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees... you sons of hell... being prophet is not being Ned Flanders" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/nFQh12cEWbk?t=2430) — [H3] Exposure Culture Risk of Using Victims - Key idea: Danger of treating abuse victims as ammunition for platform building rather than caring for them - Evidence: "Using victims to promote exposure itself rather than caring for victim... offering counseling, paying for investigations" ## 📚 References - [1 Timothy 3 - Qualifications for Overseers](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203&version=ESV) - [Ephesians 5:11 - Expose Works of Darkness](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205%3A11&version=ESV) - [Matthew 18 - Church Discipline Process](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018&version=ESV) - [Mike Winger YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@MikeWinger) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Churches split between covering up leadership failures versus exposing them publicly, with cover-up culture using NDAs and dismissing critics while exposure culture risks mob mentality - Biblical leadership prioritizes character qualifications over perceived anointing or ministry effectiveness, requiring evidence-based accountability rather than protecting institutional reputation - The current season of church purification is generally positive but requires wisdom to maintain biblical standards while caring for victims rather than using them for platform building ## 📰 Newsletter The church is experiencing a crucial season of leadership accountability. While cover-up culture protects failing leaders through NDAs and dismisses critics, a healthy exposure culture follows biblical commands to reveal darkness (Ephesians 5:11) while maintaining proper evidence standards. The key is balanced discernment: supporting biblical qualifications for leadership (1 Timothy 3) while avoiding mob mentality. Churches must treat congregants as capable of handling truth rather than protecting institutional reputation at victim expense. For church leaders, this means prioritizing character over charisma and following biblical discipline processes. For members, it means supporting appropriate accountability while maintaining grace and proper evidence standards. Resources: [1 Timothy 3 Study](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203&version=ESV), [Church Discipline Guidelines](https://www.9marks.org/series/church-discipline/), [Abuse Recovery Resources](https://www.churchcares.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create transparency reports for community leadership decisions, establish clear accountability processes - Education: Develop workshops on healthy organizational culture and conflict resolution - Community management: Implement fair moderation policies with appeal processes #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Establish clear leadership qualification standards and accountability mechanisms - Community Engagement: Create transparent processes for addressing community concerns and grievances - Strategic Alignment: Develop metrics for measuring organizational health beyond just growth numbers #### Community - Maintainers: Establish code of conduct enforcement that balances accountability with restoration - Contributors: Create safe reporting mechanisms for inappropriate behavior - Sponsors: Ensure funding transparency and ethical leadership requirements #### WordPress - Community: Develop WordCamp speaker vetting processes and community safety protocols - Training: Create curriculum on healthy church/organizational leadership principles - Support: Establish escalation paths for serious community concerns - Meta: Implement transparent governance processes for major organizational decisions #### The WPCC - Programs: Develop leadership development programs emphasizing character and accountability - Funding: Require organizational health assessments for grant recipients #### FAIR - Policies: Establish governance transparency requirements and leadership accountability standards - Governance artifacts: Create templates for healthy organizational charters and conflict resolution ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Organizations emphasizing character qualifications over charisma will have fewer serious leadership failures and better crisis recovery - Churches implementing transparent accountability processes will maintain higher long-term trust and stability than those using cover-up tactics - Communities with balanced exposure culture (evidence-based, victim-caring) will experience healthier purification than those with either cover-up or mob mentality approaches - Leadership structures that distribute power and decision-making will be more resilient to individual leader failures than personality-driven organizations ### 📊 Methodology - Study design: Longitudinal analysis of churches that experienced leadership crises, comparing outcomes based on response approach (cover-up vs. healthy exposure) - Data sources: Survey congregants before and after leadership accountability situations, measuring trust levels and spiritual health indicators - Experiments: Pilot biblical accountability processes in willing churches and measure organizational health metrics over time ### ❓ Questions - How can organizations balance transparency with appropriate privacy in leadership accountability situations? - What specific training and support systems help leaders develop the character qualifications emphasized in 1 Timothy 3? - How can communities distinguish between healthy prophetic confrontation and destructive criticism or mob behavior? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comparative analysis of organizational recovery rates between cover-up versus transparent accountability approaches - Development of assessment tools for identifying early warning signs of toxic leadership culture - Investigation of how power distribution models affect organizational resilience to individual leader failures ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Churches need clear biblical qualification standards for leadership and transparent accountability processes - Policy: Religious organizations should adopt governance structures that prevent personality-driven power concentration - Education: Leadership development programs must emphasize character formation alongside skill development - Funding: Grant-making should include organizational health assessments and governance accountability requirements ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (complex theological and organizational concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None in audio format - Improve: Create organizational charts showing healthy vs. unhealthy church structures, decision-making flowcharts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast discussion format with multiple voices - Improve: Add chapter markers and audio summaries of key principles #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive biblical term definitions and analogies throughout discussion - Improve: Create glossary of key terms and additional scriptural cross-references #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None in current format - Improve: Develop case study exercises and role-playing scenarios for healthy conflict resolution #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect analysis of different cultural approaches - Improve: Add decision trees for biblical accountability processes and measurable outcomes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discussion format models healthy disagreement and collaborative thinking - Improve: Create small group discussion guides and community implementation strategies #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Complex theological reflection throughout - Improve: Add personal assessment tools for examining one's own leadership or followership patterns #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic church health analogies - Improve: Develop ecosystem metaphors for healthy organizational culture ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio content accessible to screen readers via transcript - Improve: Add structured headings and landmarks to transcript format #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player keyboard controls - Improve: Ensure any supplementary materials follow accessibility standards #### Contrast and readability - Present: Audio format eliminates visual contrast issues - Improve: Ensure any written materials meet WCAG standards #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Not applicable to audio content - Improve: Design any supporting materials with responsive text sizing #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content available - Improve: Add professional captions and full transcript with timestamps #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple YouTube interface - Improve: Ensure any supplementary interactive content follows accessibility guidelines ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion focuses primarily on Western/American church contexts - Improve: Include examples from global church experiences and non-Western accountability approaches #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally inclusive language with defined theological terms - Improve: Consider how concepts translate across denominational and cultural boundaries --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to the wonderful [00:02] world of Remnant Radio. In this program, [00:03] we're talking about two emerging [00:05] cultures uh that have began to emerge in [00:07] recent days. It's not as if it's brand [00:08] new, but on one side, we've got the uh [00:11] coverup culture uh that has begin to [00:13] emerge and come into the spotlight. [00:15] Maybe that's a better thing. It's it's [00:16] been exposed. And then opposite to that [00:19] of the coverup culture, we have seen [00:20] that of exposure culture kind of running [00:23] rampant. A lot of good, uh a lot of bad, [00:25] uh as it's tied up all together. And in [00:27] this program, we're going to be looking [00:28] at the good and the bad of both. Kind of [00:30] testing them up against the scriptures [00:32] to see which are biblical uh and what [00:34] ways they both uh need to be redeemed, [00:37] care for uh and and trained. I'll be [00:39] honest, cover up culture convert to the [00:41] ground. But uh we partially need to [00:43] identify uh the good and bad in both. So [00:45] guys, it's going to be exciting program. [00:46] You guys stay tuned. [00:50] >> Round tree gave me a kind of confused [00:52] look there for a second. We got a [00:54] program. there's anything to redeem [00:55] about cover up culture. [00:57] >> Like I said, it definitely needs to be [00:59] burned to the ground. Uh but uh I do [01:01] think uh when I'm talking about both I I [01:04] do think that there are uh definitely [01:06] areas that exposure culture needs to [01:08] grow and form whereas uh the coverup [01:11] culture side of things uh man again burn [01:14] to the ground. That's scorched earth is [01:15] what we're looking for. [01:17] >> Really we need a definition of terms so [01:18] we're all talking about the same thing. [01:20] >> Yeah, that's that's helpful. We we'll [01:22] we'll we'll get into that here in a [01:23] second. Uh quick announcement for you [01:25] guys. Uh the ITSG introduction to [01:27] spiritual gifts course has been opened [01:28] uh over there at the remnant radio. So [01:30] if you register for the newsletter, you [01:32] get 20% off of that course. We've seen [01:34] over a thousand students go through the [01:36] program getting trained up uh in [01:38] spiritual gifts. If you're out there and [01:39] you're like, "Wait, trained up in [01:40] spiritual gifts? That seems kind of uh [01:42] gnarly. Kind of seems uh uh kind of [01:44] maybe a little excessive when it comes [01:46] to what the Bible says." What we do when [01:48] we're training people on spiritual gifts [01:49] is we're teaching them what the Bible [01:51] says about spiritual gifts. And then [01:53] we're asking God uh to speak to us, [01:55] asking God to heal the sick, those kinds [01:57] of things. I can't give you the gift of [01:59] healing or give you the gift of [02:00] prophecy. But if you're interested in [02:01] learning about what those spiritual [02:02] gifts are and then creating space for [02:04] that, ITSG is a great course for you. [02:06] We've got online videos that you watch [02:07] online, you get homework, uh you break [02:09] out into a live Q&A with myself, Michael [02:11] Miller, or Michael Roundtree, and then [02:12] you break out into small groups uh and [02:14] you practice the stuff. So, uh, that's [02:16] something you're interested in, check [02:17] out the information over at the ruin.com [02:19] under our courses. Uh, or you could also [02:21] check out the, uh, information over at [02:23] the newsletter and get 20% off that, uh, [02:26] that course. So, Roundtree, uh, you want [02:28] to, you want to tell us how you're doing [02:30] over there in Oklahoma City before you [02:32] tear me up for, uh, talking about [02:34] coverup culture and how it can be [02:36] redeemed? [02:37] >> Yeah, I'm doing great cuz tonight I get [02:39] to go on a date, uh, actually with my [02:42] daughter. So, my daughter's 18, she's [02:44] about to go to college. So treasuring [02:46] every last minute and so she didn't [02:48] really have time last week. I tend to [02:49] take my daughters out for something [02:51] related to Valentine's course my wife [02:53] also but uh but yeah so going on a date [02:56] tonight could do a little Italian [02:58] dinner. So looking forward to that right [03:01] after talking about exposure culture. So [03:04] so uh fun times and beautiful day [03:06] outside here in Oklahoma. So doing [03:07] pretty well man. [03:08] >> Yeah last couple days have been really [03:09] nice. I get to hang out with Jonathan SB [03:12] runs a ministry out of Thailand. uh [03:14] rescuing young women from trafficking. [03:17] Uh I say women, young men and and women [03:19] for that matter. So he's a missionary. I [03:20] get to come to my church and talk on [03:22] Sunday. Uh but we spent the last couple [03:23] days outside. It's been really really [03:25] nice. So let's dive into subject matter [03:27] today. Michael, we talk about cover [03:29] culture, cover up culture. I know we [03:31] don't have like working definitions for [03:32] these things, but we're talking [03:34] essentially about uh the the the process [03:38] that's taking place in a lot of these [03:39] very well-known large churches where an [03:42] individual falls into sin. uh and they [03:44] very quickly clamp down on that kind of [03:46] activity with things like NDAs. They cut [03:49] clamp down on that by uh labeling those [03:51] who are whistleblowers as uh individuals [03:53] who are accusers of the brethren. They [03:55] are in opposition to God's will, etc., [03:57] etc. Uh and there's a lot of imaging and [04:00] messaging that goes out to the public [04:02] that pretends to hide uh the severity of [04:05] such claims. Uh we've seen in recent [04:06] days uh ministries who have covered up [04:09] uh things that would be considered [04:10] clergy sexual abuse uh pretend to write [04:12] them off as if there's no uh sexual [04:14] abuse that actually took place but uh [04:16] you know unwise decisions that have uh [04:19] unpacked in in these individuals lives [04:21] heavy-handed leadership etc etc and [04:23] those things are kind of just glossed [04:24] over. So uh in some sense that's what [04:26] we're talking about when we're talking [04:27] about coverup culture. Uh Roundry would [04:29] you add anything to that definition [04:31] there? [04:32] >> Uh no I I mean I think it's good. But I [04:34] think one of the big ones is uh just [04:37] anointing and calling uh taking [04:39] precedence over qualifications. And so [04:42] uh I'm really thankful that there's been [04:44] this renewed emphasis on the [04:45] qualifications for spiritual leadership. [04:47] 1 Timothy 3, Titus chapter 1, 1 Peter 5. [04:51] And uh and so but a lot of times people [04:54] will go to the Old Testament. They love [04:55] to look to the kings and especially [04:57] David. Oh, this man after God's own [04:59] heart low-key committed murder and [05:00] adultery. So, uh, we should have [05:02] murderers and adulterers in our pulpits, [05:04] and that's kind of how the argument [05:05] goes. Uh, but really, uh, the truth is [05:08] we do need to wrestle with some texts [05:09] for, for instance, like, uh, King David [05:13] repeatedly, despite being under an [05:15] incredibly narcissistic leader, [05:18] continually submits and continually [05:20] honors him and so on. And how does that [05:22] play into I mean that's Old Testament, [05:24] that's monarchy, but I do think we need [05:26] to discuss how does that play into [05:28] modern day and church structures because [05:30] there are some in within coverup culture [05:33] who take that as almost like permission. [05:35] Man, I saw this on uh Ron Caner's [05:38] podcast recently. He was showing this [05:40] clip of Rick Joiner and Rick Joiner was [05:42] talking about all these sexual sexually [05:45] deviant pastoral leaders and he just [05:47] says, "You know what? We're gonna just [05:49] need to get used to it because this is [05:50] what pe this is what men do. And I loved [05:53] that Ron Caner said, "No, Rick, I'm not [05:56] gonna get used to that. This is not what [05:59] men do." Like, not normal men. They [06:01] don't they don't like uh spiritually [06:05] abuse and groom people and use [06:08] prophecies and all this kind of thing to [06:09] get women in bed with them. That's not [06:11] normal behavior and we shouldn't excuse [06:13] it. And this whole idea of like boys [06:14] will be boys is insane. So, uh, so I do [06:19] think though, Josh, we do we need to [06:21] wrestle with the text with David a [06:22] little bit. I don't know if you want to [06:23] do that now or we can do it later. [06:24] >> Well, let me give people an outline of [06:26] the show a little bit because I think [06:27] that's a good subject matter. I think on [06:29] the other end of our definition for [06:31] coverup culture on the other side, we're [06:33] talking about exposure culture and how [06:34] exposure exposure culture views these [06:37] same kinds of subjects. I think exposure [06:39] culture uh, as you know, we we think is [06:41] good in general. Um I I think that the [06:43] guys over at the minor prophets, Mike [06:45] Winger, and many others that are out [06:47] there doing I think the Lord's work in [06:49] showing, hey, these guys um are [06:51] disqualified. These guys are causing [06:54] pain in the body of Christ. I think [06:55] that's a generally net positive thing [06:57] for the body of Christ. While [06:58] simultaneously, there are others online, [07:01] and I'm not mentioning anyone in [07:03] particular, uh where they're using [07:05] exposure culture, uh in a way that's not [07:08] redemptive. It's not uh helpful to the [07:11] body of Christ. Uh and I think that we [07:13] need to be careful because as we are [07:15] going through this season of [07:16] purification of the body of Christ and [07:18] I'm thankful for it. I think the Lord's [07:19] actually doing this work of cleansing [07:21] house. Uh while he's doing so, there are [07:23] bad actors who are using exposure [07:25] culture to kind of rise to the top uh as [07:28] it as it were to be these bastions of [07:30] theology and my morality is greater than [07:32] everyone else's. And because of these [07:34] things uh man, they profit off of this. [07:36] There's um man, a lot of a lot of uh [07:40] poop in the brownie is the only thing [07:41] that's coming to mind. There there's [07:42] there's a whole there a whole lot of bad [07:44] with the good. It is one of my my [07:47] go-tos. Uh so uh in this program, we're [07:49] going to kind of walk through uh how we [07:51] view leadership, how both uh spaces, the [07:54] coverup culture and the exposure culture [07:56] culture views leadership in uh the [07:59] church. We're going to talk about how [08:00] they view the body of Christ. Uh the the [08:02] positives and and negatives of some of [08:04] those things. And we're also going to be [08:05] talking about how they view discipline. [08:08] Now, as we go through the show notes for [08:10] today, I know I keep saying the [08:11] positives and negatives. I'm really [08:13] talking about the positives and [08:13] negatives of exposure culture. Uh, [08:16] again, net positive. I I think this [08:18] activity that's taking place online is [08:20] actually good. But I do think we need to [08:22] be careful about how it's actually being [08:24] practiced and what we're training people [08:26] that are watching our content how to [08:27] think soberly about these issues. [08:29] because I do think there are um I've [08:32] already seen uh a few negative reactions [08:35] of of these sorts of things and we're [08:36] going to we're going to dive into it [08:37] here in a moment. Um yeah, Michael, [08:39] let's start off with leadership. Let's [08:41] talk about coverup culture, exposure [08:42] culture, how they're viewing leadership. [08:44] You mentioned King David as an example. [08:46] There's a really well-known book, Tale [08:48] of Three Kings, [08:50] >> that was popularized uh for a long time. [08:52] I read it in Bible school, and uh that [08:54] was one of the books. It was to say, [08:55] "Hey, look, uh, this guy is under the [08:57] heavy-handed leadership of King Saul, [09:00] and he seems to submit to this, and the [09:02] Bible seems to record, uh, this kind of [09:05] heavy-handed leadership and submission [09:06] to it as a good thing because he's not [09:08] usurping the throne." Um, I think [09:10] there's a whole lot of context pieces in [09:13] there that that inform that. Uh, but I [09:15] I'll toss it over to you. That's it's a [09:16] good way to start as we talk about uh, [09:18] leadership. [09:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. I read the tale of of three [09:21] kings back in the day, and it's kind of [09:23] one of those things where if you're a [09:25] leader uh in a charismatic church, it's [09:27] almost like uh especially if you're not [09:30] the senior leader, it's almost like a [09:31] go-to book of that people give you like, [09:33] "Oh, you should read this. Oh, you're [09:35] having problems with your leaders. You [09:36] should just read this book." And and and [09:38] the book is basically just always submit [09:41] and always just shut your mouth and [09:42] always be quiet. And um and so I I don't [09:47] like that. So here here's why. I don't [09:50] think it I don't think it carries over [09:52] into ecclesial structures. So I [09:55] mentioned at the top of the show, Israel [09:57] was a monarchy. And what the author of 1 [09:59] Samuel is trying to show with David's [10:01] continual submission is that David isn't [10:03] a usurper. He's not one of those people [10:06] who, like so many other kings through [10:08] Israel's history, oftent times somebody [10:10] gets murdered in order for somebody else [10:12] to get to the throne. and and it's [10:14] trying to show that David is trusting [10:16] God's hand in leadership rather than [10:19] trying to usurp the throne for himself. [10:22] And so my experience, people who have [10:25] grievances against senior leaders, it's [10:27] not because they want to be a senior [10:29] leader, it's because they have [10:30] grievances against a senior leader. Like [10:34] so it's not not really it doesn't map [10:36] that way. Uh not everybody who exposes [10:39] somebody is trying to take their place. [10:41] Do you think Mike Winger wants to be the [10:43] next senior pastor of Bethl Church? Like [10:45] this is not a parallel. This it doesn't [10:48] fit. Uh number one, but but number two, [10:50] is Israel was a monarchy. And so a [10:54] monarchy is different from a church. A [10:56] church is to be led by shepherds. And um [11:00] and a monarchy was led by kings. And and [11:02] I think it actually reflects something [11:04] of how we so often view spiritual [11:07] leadership. We view it like we're kings. [11:10] And that's not okay. That's not good. [11:12] We're not, you know, Samuel warned the [11:14] people, "Hey, you got a king. He's going [11:16] to be all over you and he's going to be [11:18] requiring a whole lot of you. He gonna [11:19] be taxing you. He's going to send you to [11:20] war. He's going to be oppressing you. [11:22] It's going to be really bad." And people [11:23] are like, "Ah, we want a king anyway." [11:24] You know? So, uh, so I I see this like [11:28] as we carry it over into church culture, [11:30] when church leaders view themselves as [11:32] kings, it's a really bad thing. Now, of [11:34] course, I will say God's intention was [11:35] for kings in Israel to operate like [11:38] shepherds. You see that in Psalm 78. uh [11:40] uh about David. But uh anyway, I I feel [11:44] as though this application excuses [11:48] narcissistic and abusive behavior and [11:51] requires people to sit down and shut up, [11:54] which means that it just keeps [11:56] happening. That is not the way. So, uh [12:00] anyway, so those are a few thoughts on [12:01] it. What do you think? [12:02] >> I I'll weigh in on that same idea. You [12:04] know, Michael mentioned at the top of [12:05] the show, cover-up culture views [12:08] leadership as the anointed [12:10] representative for God. And that's a [12:12] reductionistic view because the body of [12:14] Christ at large are the people of God [12:17] representing God in the earth. It's no [12:19] longer reserved um for prophets, [12:21] priests, and kings as God's viceroys, as [12:24] God's representatives, as God's point [12:26] person. Uh certainly uh the people who [12:28] are in those leadership positions are to [12:30] operate with a standard of conduct and [12:33] character and ethic uh where you're [12:35] going to find a pretty strong uniqueness [12:37] with David and Solomon and the other [12:40] kings u of Judah uh who would fall into [12:43] immorality. Why does God allow them to [12:45] stay in that office? A a really strong [12:49] uh redemptive history arc that's [12:50] important for us to realize is that the [12:53] son of David would come from the line of [12:55] David. There was a messianic promise to [12:57] the kingly reign and the kingly line [13:00] that through their offspring there would [13:02] be a descendant who would rule on the [13:04] throne of David. Uh so if you remove [13:06] David, you remove his prodigy. If [13:08] Solomon gets into power and God strikes [13:10] Solomon dead for all of the uh sexual [13:13] immorality and sacrifices to idols, [13:15] well, you also have the line of the [13:17] kings being ended in that. Now, you [13:19] could say, well, he could have killed [13:20] these guys in their later days. Sure, [13:22] fine. That's true. Uh but I think that [13:24] we also have to realize that God is [13:26] using this fallen family to birth the [13:30] son of God uh the the ruler of Israel. [13:33] And I think that when we look at the the [13:35] narrative arc of Christ coming into the [13:38] world, that is part of why these kingly [13:40] offices are are staying in power uh and [13:43] and not to be taken as okay, well now [13:45] we're going to read all these stories of [13:47] these kings and these moral failures [13:48] here into the New Testament uh [13:50] positions. And what we're doing is we're [13:51] taking Old Testament shadows and reading [13:53] them over New Testament prescriptions. [13:56] The New Testament is very clear about [13:58] our elders and our leaders and our [14:00] deacons in our church. They're qualified [14:02] on the grounds not of anointing and [14:04] calling, but on the grounds of [14:06] character. Uh now that all that being [14:08] said, all things being equal, the church [14:10] is to recognize the calling of an [14:12] individual saying, "Hey, I I feel like [14:13] God has called you to X, Y, and Z." It's [14:15] not a personal, you know, I feel led to [14:17] X, Y, and Z. It is really on behalf of [14:20] the church to identify those gifts to uh [14:22] identify those leadings and then to uh [14:25] empower said individuals who have the [14:27] appropriate character qualifications. Um [14:30] another thing that happens in coverup [14:31] culture when it when they view uh [14:33] leadership, it's not only uh viewing [14:35] these guys as God's representatives, but [14:36] it's also this anointing over character. [14:39] Uh and and this is again a a serious [14:42] problem that's taking place in cover-up [14:44] culture. You don't even have to go to [14:45] the hyper charismatic side of things. Uh [14:48] you can go to man uh these guys are [14:50] changing the world with their music uh [14:52] over at Hillsong. They're not I mean [14:54] they're they're continuous but they're [14:55] not overtly charismatic in all of their [14:57] meetings. Uh you've got these guys oh [14:59] they're great leadership gifts and oh [15:01] they're doing all this great stuff with [15:02] the poor and we can look past uh all of [15:04] the character flaws these individuals [15:06] have because of the fruit and byproduct [15:09] of their ministry. And that is really at [15:12] its base level an appeal to things like [15:15] pragmatism because it works. we've got [15:17] to keep doing it because these guys are [15:20] doing good things. We can't remove these [15:23] individuals because we're looking at the [15:25] fruit of uh what they can produce and [15:27] not necessarily the fruit of their [15:29] character in their lives. So, uh I I [15:31] think that when you look at coverup [15:33] culture, uh it starts off with a vision [15:36] of leadership uh that frankly uh is is [15:39] unbiblical. And because of that, you you [15:42] have the the downfall of these kinds of [15:44] coverup cultures beginning to be exposed [15:46] over and over because they're not [15:47] building their foundation on Christ. Um [15:50] the final Go ahead, Randrey. I'll pass [15:52] it over to you. [15:52] >> Oh. Oh, I was going to say like that [15:54] whole argumentation of look at the fruit [15:56] and look how much we're growing and look [15:58] at all the salvations and all of this. [16:00] It becomes a reason for why coverup [16:03] culture says, "Hey, we don't need to [16:04] talk about these other things." But [16:06] their argument actually works against [16:07] itself because look at the fruit should [16:09] not just mean the church is growing. [16:12] Look at the fruit should mean how is it [16:14] affecting people? Are people getting [16:16] more and more wounded? Is there a trail [16:18] of dead bodies behind you? uh are are [16:21] people getting crushed uh or are they [16:23] being made more whole, which is actually [16:25] what the body of Christ is supposed to [16:27] do. So, if we want to properly do a [16:29] fruit inspection, we can't just look at [16:31] how many people got saved from the [16:33] pastor's sermon and how big the churches [16:35] got. No, we actually have to look at how [16:37] people's lives are being affected. And [16:40] if people are having to go to counseling [16:41] and therapy in mass because of your [16:45] senior pastor or your senior leadership, [16:47] well, then that actually is a problem. [16:49] And uh and so I I think it's a a false [16:52] sort of uh claim of of exposure culture. [16:56] Well, but look at the fruit. Well, let's [16:58] look at all the fruit then is what I [16:59] would want to say. [17:00] >> That's right. [17:01] >> Yeah. I I think you were going to talk [17:02] about church mission and vision a little [17:04] bit. [17:04] >> Yeah. I was just going to say like the [17:06] final thing that I would say that that [17:07] is very common in coverup culture when [17:10] it comes to their vision of leadership [17:12] is that the the leader is intrinsically [17:15] woven into the mission and vision of the [17:17] church. And it part of this give me [17:21] grace here cuz I know many of you guys [17:22] have mission statements and vision [17:24] statements in your church. But but so [17:26] many churches are trying to be so unique [17:28] to um stand out against all the other [17:30] churches in their city. So they they try [17:32] to create these really clever missions [17:34] and vision statements and and often [17:36] times they they can actually be contrary [17:38] to the vision and mission statement of [17:40] of Jesus. The great commandment and the [17:42] great commission. These are the vision [17:43] statement and mission statement for the [17:45] entire church. And so many people come [17:47] on the scene uh I think of like the [17:49] upper room and they're saying like well [17:50] we want to be the the tip of the spear [17:52] when it comes to uh leading houses uh [17:54] the house of prayer in in the church of [17:56] God and and we're bringing back the [17:58] tabernacle of David. And it's like well [18:00] that's not the mission and the vision of [18:01] the church set by Jesus. So what you're [18:04] doing is something else. It's not the [18:07] church. And I'm not saying that they're [18:08] not Christians or any of that. I I what [18:10] I'm aiming at is saying that we've so [18:13] intrinsically tied up the vision [18:15] statement and mission statement onto [18:17] some leaders kind of uh own ambition, [18:20] their own kind of hope of what they're [18:22] going to achieve. And when that leader [18:23] ends up falling, it's so intrinsically [18:25] tied up into this mission and vision [18:28] because he's the guy that was going to [18:29] get us there that they keep the guy in [18:31] power in order to get them there because [18:33] they don't believe anyone else can do it [18:35] because it comes from their core values, [18:37] not the core values of the body of [18:39] Christ at large. So, uh I think that [18:41] both of those two things, the mission [18:42] vision statement tied up into that [18:44] leader um is is a I mean a recipe for [18:47] disaster. Um, I would hope that the [18:50] mission and vision of your church and my [18:51] church for all those of you who are [18:52] watching says that when that lead guy [18:54] got hit by a bus and doesn't come to [18:56] church on Sunday, your church can still [18:58] operate because they don't have this [19:00] celebrity culture that has terminated [19:02] the entire church's value system on that [19:05] individual. Uh, granted, I understand [19:07] there are a lot of churches that have uh [19:09] not a ton of resources. They're a small [19:10] community uh and those pastors do a lot [19:12] of the heavy heavy lifting of ministry [19:14] day-to-day. So you say that with some [19:16] caveats, but the hope would be that the [19:18] church can still function without your [19:20] lead guy. That would be the the aim. [19:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. But the the connection there [19:25] to cover up culture is that so much is [19:28] relying on this guy that we've got to [19:30] cover up for his failures so that uh [19:33] because if he falls, the whole thing [19:35] falls apart. And so I think that's what [19:37] I hear you saying there. Is that right, [19:38] Josh? [19:39] >> Yeah. Okay. Uh well, should we talk [19:42] about uh what we're calling exposure [19:44] culture now? and uh with all the [19:46] qualifications that uh that exposure [19:49] culture it's actually a good thing if [19:53] what we mean by exposure culture is [19:55] obeying Ephesians 5:11 which says do not [19:58] participate in the works of darkness but [20:00] instead expose them. It's a section of [20:03] Ephesians chapter 5 where apostle the [20:05] apostle Paul is talking about how we are [20:08] light and children of light and what [20:10] does light do? Well, it exposes and we [20:13] tend to think of light you know there's [20:15] the Jesus will say you're the light of [20:16] the world in Matthew chapter 5 and there [20:18] he's talking about let your light shine [20:20] before men so that they may see your [20:22] good deeds and glorify your father in [20:24] heaven. That is one function of light. [20:26] it shines outward and in that context [20:28] Jesus is connecting it more to just our [20:30] good works and letting people see that [20:33] uh the way God has transformed our [20:35] lives. Uh but Paul is using it [20:37] differently in Ephesians 5 and 5 5:11 [20:40] and uh and coverup culture is is [20:42] literally saying don't expose. That's [20:44] sinful. That's bad. And I'm saying read [20:46] the Bible. Ephesians 5:11 says we must [20:49] expose. We're obligated to expose. And [20:52] so if that's all we mean by exposure [20:54] culture is obeying Ephesians 5:11, then [20:56] then man, it's great. But the way we're [20:58] using the phrase exposure culture here [21:02] is we're using it in the sense of like [21:04] there can be ways in which it goes over [21:06] the top. And uh what do we mean by that? [21:10] Well, there can develop a sort of mob [21:13] and pitchfork mentality where we're not [21:16] really looking at the facts of the case [21:18] nor waiting for the facts of the case. [21:21] uh we're just like I'm gonna dogpile [21:24] somebody and and so I do think that [21:27] happens and I do think we have to be [21:28] careful and we do want to make sure you [21:31] know like 1 Timothy 5 is often quoted in [21:34] the context of exposure uh exposing [21:37] leaders and I think it's a great verse. [21:39] It talks about um it talks about [21:42] rebuking sinning elders publicly, but it [21:46] also does provide quoting Deuteronomy [21:48] 19, it does say provided there's [21:51] evidence on the account of two or three [21:53] witnesses. It says, and so uh and so [21:57] Paul's not just saying like, hey, [21:59] anytime you have a hunch that there's a [22:02] leader in sin, you need to start a [22:04] podcast and start talking about how [22:06] sinful that leader is. And so that's [22:08] where we're talking about. So like [22:10] there's a holy form of exposure which [22:13] says there's evidence here. This [22:15] evidence has been addressed with this [22:17] person. They're not doing anything. [22:19] They're not repentant. And what Paul's [22:21] language is in 1 Timothy 5, if they [22:23] don't repent, he says, rebuke them [22:25] publicly in the presence of all so that [22:27] the others may take warning. And so we [22:30] want to avoid no longer being a people [22:34] that looks to evidence. Now, even in [22:37] saying that, like, man, Josh, there [22:39] there's so many I've seen that be [22:41] abused. Like, I'm just thinking about [22:42] like, you know, Michael Brown when he [22:45] was had some role in the IHOP case and [22:48] it was just like, let the investigation [22:50] play out. Let it all play out. And I'm [22:52] like, multiple women have come forward [22:55] and said they have been sexually and [22:58] spiritually abused by Mike Bickl. How [23:01] many witnesses do we need? You know, [23:04] there are some people that they need so [23:06] much evidence, it's as if they need to [23:08] watch the act happen in person for them [23:11] to be willing to call somebody out. I'm [23:15] not saying that. I'm not saying that we [23:17] should so slow roll this that that [23:21] unless it happens right before our face [23:22] that we don't say anything. I am saying [23:24] we need to actually have evidence. And [23:28] uh and I think in a culture, an exposure [23:30] culture, you know, we've we've taken on [23:32] these terms such as abuse and [23:34] gaslighting and those are really helpful [23:37] terms properly defined. But if every [23:39] time anyone does anything that's [23:42] slightly bad and we call it gaslighting [23:45] and we call it abuse, if we do that [23:46] every single time and we don't actually [23:49] have evidence, we're just spouting it [23:50] before the world, I don't think we're [23:52] really following biblical protocol. And [23:55] so, you know, here we always talk about [23:57] calling balls and strikes and I it's [23:59] like I I find myself in my heart so much [24:03] more resonating with the exposure side [24:06] of things because I detest despise [24:10] with everything in my soul coverup [24:13] culture. But I think there is this human [24:16] tendency to swing the pendulum and to go [24:18] from coverup culture to I don't need any [24:21] evidence, just a hunch and a rumor and [24:25] I'm going to spout it to the whole [24:26] internet. And that's not good either. [24:29] I'm saying let's just do it like the [24:31] Bible says. It says if there's two or [24:32] three witnesses then you go public. So I [24:35] I don't know. I've said a few things. [24:36] You want to talk about that a little [24:37] bit? [24:37] >> A little bit. [24:38] >> Yeah. We'll get into a little bit to mob [24:39] justice and terminology, you know, in [24:42] the discipline section of this. So, I [24:44] think Michael kind of touched on some of [24:45] that, but we're going to unpack a little [24:46] bit more of that later on in the [24:48] program. U as as it relates to exposure [24:51] culture, I'm I am concerned that the way [24:54] that we may participate and practice in [24:57] this cuz the the act of exposing bad [25:00] stuff, good. Um what does that then [25:02] teach folks on the back end? And I'm I'm [25:05] inclined to think that Paul is writing [25:07] to Timothy in 1 Timothy and says, you [25:10] know, those who desire that position or [25:12] the office of an overseer, they desire a [25:14] good thing. Ephesians um I think it's [25:16] chapter uh 3:1 Timothy 3:1. And I think [25:21] he's likely saying that because the [25:23] leadership office in Ephesus had been [25:26] under disrepute um because of immoral [25:29] leaders, unqualified leaders, etc. And I [25:32] think that 1 Timothy 3 is written as [25:34] much as it is to say, "Hey, the new [25:35] leaders you put in place, make sure they [25:37] have character, make sure they have good [25:38] doctrine, make sure they can teach, make [25:40] sure these things are important." Uh, [25:42] but also to disqualify individuals that [25:44] may still be there. And I think the [25:46] reason he is telling his church in [25:48] Ephesus, hey guys, uh, those who desire [25:51] this role, desire a good thing is [25:53] because it had been fallen in such [25:55] disrepute that the assumption that [25:56] leaders are just bad. And I I think that [25:59] we live in a day uh in particular that [26:01] has been so affected by Marxist ideology [26:04] that power dynamics then inform us on [26:07] what is good and what is evil. Those [26:09] with power are therefore evil and those [26:11] without power are therefore good. And we [26:14] set up the proletariat and the [26:15] bourgeoisi and we've got to just burn [26:17] the whole thing to the ground so those [26:19] who are oppressed can take over and have [26:21] power. And uh I'm concerned that we are [26:24] kind of falling into the ideologies of [26:26] the world or we could fall into the [26:28] ideologies of the world and just assume [26:30] all church leaders are bad. Um and I do [26:34] think that Paul is writing under the [26:35] inspiration of the Holy Spirit saying [26:38] good and godly elders are good and godly [26:40] things. And I think there's a danger [26:42] with exposure culture that we take a [26:44] message that's not being said from a lot [26:46] of individuals. Like I I don't think uh [26:48] the John Mark Bakers, the Steven Kosars, [26:50] I don't think that the Mike Wingers of [26:52] the world are saying all leaders are [26:53] bad. However, I'm I'm curious if the [26:56] masses who are watching this kind of [26:58] content begin to mix in a little bit of [27:00] Marxist ideology in their thinking and [27:03] suddenly poof, we've got a whole bunch [27:04] of independent house churches with no [27:06] leadership, no biblical structure, no [27:08] biblical model, just kind of trying to [27:10] figure out stuff because they don't want [27:11] to get hurt by the big church. And I'll [27:13] tell you, there's as much pain taking [27:15] place in house churches as there is in [27:16] big churches because the problem is not [27:19] a leadership structure. The problem is [27:21] sin and all of God's people are marred [27:23] by it. Um, so I I think that that's an [27:26] important side note is to say that there [27:29] is a a kind of warning that I'm seeing [27:31] on the horizon as it relates to exposure [27:34] culture. I don't think that we see the [27:36] full brunt of it at this moment, but I [27:38] do see it on the horizon. Another thing [27:40] on uh cover-up culture is just the [27:42] flattening of responsibility. Um uh you [27:45] know I think that we have looked at [27:47] these big leaders um and we've just said [27:49] hey look you know Mike Winger's is a [27:51] really bad dude. Uh Mike Winger Mike [27:53] Mike Mike Bickle is a really bad dude. [27:55] Sorry Mike I didn't mean it. [27:56] >> Jeez, dude. [27:57] >> Uh Mike Mike Bickl I meant it to you. I [27:59] didn't mean it to Winger. I just got too [28:00] many mics in my life. um you know uh the [28:02] the the guys over at Bethl you know what [28:05] they were doing like that's bad but but [28:07] we also have to realize that we have a a [28:10] community of people who've lifted these [28:12] individuals up and every time there is [28:15] an abuse story um I think often times [28:18] there are individuals who are getting [28:20] the brunt of it and and in some sense [28:21] that's probably good but we also have to [28:23] realize that there are boards uh in [28:25] place at these at these institutions [28:27] there are uh individuals who have such a [28:30] craving for the charisma. They have such [28:32] a craving for the demonstration of power [28:34] that they're willing to be hoodwinkedked [28:36] into a Shawn BS being the prophet for [28:38] the hour. Uh I think that we actually [28:40] have to kind of examine our own desires [28:43] to lift up teachers for ourselves who [28:45] will tickle our ears and make us feel [28:47] like we're a part of a big movement. [28:49] There's actually moral capability on a [28:51] lot of sides. That is not to say that a [28:54] Mike Bickl is as equally morally [28:56] culpable as the individual who wanted to [28:57] be a part of something great. Not saying [29:00] that at all. However, we need to get out [29:02] of this mindset of uh there's one really [29:04] really bad guy and they're at the top. [29:07] Actually, there's probably a system in [29:08] place that has allowed this to fester [29:11] and we need to kind of uh you know, if [29:13] if Beth what Bethl is saying is true, [29:15] this is a good thing. They're [29:16] re-evaluating everything that they're [29:18] doing. How could this have even [29:20] happened? How have we built a culture [29:22] that would even allow this kind of event [29:24] to take place? And if that's true, if [29:25] they're really doing that, they're doing [29:26] the Lord's work. And and I think that's [29:28] extremely important. R, you got any [29:30] thoughts on any of that monologue? [29:32] >> Yeah, I mean, just a few things. While [29:34] while you were talking, I was thinking [29:36] about the the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill [29:38] podcast that man, I thought it started [29:40] out awesome and then it it dragged on [29:44] and on and on. It started to feel to me [29:47] more like failure porn of just like I I [29:50] want to just swim in all the failures of [29:53] Mark Driscoll. It was well established [29:56] that he was severely abusive and [29:59] severely disqualified from leadership. [30:01] We could have seen that in a few [30:02] episodes, but it it just felt it felt [30:05] like too much to me. Uh it felt like a [30:08] dog pile. And um another thing that I [30:11] thought about and I don't know, you may [30:13] not agree with me, Josh, but that was my [30:15] thought while I was listening to it. I [30:16] can't remember how long it went on. I [30:17] was like, how many more episodes could [30:19] we have? Um, and so I I am against [30:22] exposure as a form of promoting [30:24] ourselves, you know, and uh I I think [30:28] that's really bad. Uh, of course that's [30:30] a motive of the heart and it's hard to [30:31] know like you can't really tell from [30:33] watching someone's podcast if that's the [30:34] motive in their heart, but I think every [30:36] podcaster has to be aware of it and be [30:37] very careful of it. Um, another thing [30:40] that I was thinking about while you were [30:41] talking was, uh, man, I have so much [30:44] grace for, uh, for sheep, if you will, [30:47] for God's people who have been severely [30:51] wounded by shepherds and struggle to [30:53] trust church leaders. Again, lots of [30:55] grace for that. I think that's what [30:57] Jesus dealt with. It says that he looked [30:59] out and he saw that people were harassed [31:01] and helpless like sheep without a [31:02] shepherd. Matthew chapter 9. And uh, and [31:06] so what did he do? He raised up good [31:08] shepherds. First of all, he said pray [31:09] for laborers in the harvest. And then he [31:11] sent his disciples out into the harvest. [31:13] Uh and so the solution is not no [31:15] shepherds, it's good shepherds. And I [31:17] think that's what we're trying to say. [31:20] And and so we we don't want to have such [31:22] a view that we uh that we denigrate [31:27] pastors altogether and then nobody wants [31:29] to be a pastor anymore. It's sort of [31:31] like what happened with uh with cops [31:33] back in like 2020 when everyone's like [31:35] cops are bad, you know, end the police [31:37] and all of this. I mean, it was an [31:38] extreme thing to say like end the police [31:40] like I don't know. I kind of think we [31:42] need some law enforcement. Uh but end [31:44] bad policing. And I think what happens [31:47] so to take to stick with a political uh [31:50] analogy for a moment whether it's police [31:52] back in 2020 whether it's ICE today what [31:55] I find is that it's very difficult for [31:57] people to actually say watch a video and [32:00] make a decision based on facts that they [32:02] tend to just watch that video uh through [32:05] the lens of their own kind of experience [32:09] and particularly their political [32:11] viewpoints and and just we're just [32:13] trying to say let's call balls and [32:14] strikes like You could be uh very much a [32:17] conservative and watch a particular [32:18] video and say, "Yeah, actually that was [32:20] an abuse of power." Uh or it could go [32:22] the other way. I I'm just saying I think [32:24] we get really locked in. We have to be [32:27] careful to call balls and strikes. And [32:29] for pastors, I just want to encourage [32:31] you. We need you. Uh it is 1 Timothy 3, [32:35] it is an esteemed role. We need good [32:37] pastors. And um and the other verse that [32:41] I always think of when I think of sheep [32:43] who are hurting is Matthew chapter 12 uh [32:46] when it says it's one of my favorite [32:48] verses about Jesus ministry. It's a [32:49] quote from Isaiah, but it says a bruised [32:52] reed he will not break and a smoldering [32:54] wick he will not snuff out. This is a [32:56] season where requires a lot of patience [32:58] for pastors because sheep trust you [33:00] less. They just do. And uh and you can't [33:04] get into this. Well, it's all their [33:05] fault and all like you just you love and [33:08] then you show through consistency and [33:10] character and being there for them like [33:14] earn their trust. Just do your best. [33:15] It's it's hard but we need good [33:18] shepherds in this uh in this hour. And I [33:20] and I just want to encourage those who [33:22] aren't shepherds uh not not to give up [33:24] on the sheep. We or on the church. We [33:26] actually we need each other. We need the [33:29] church. Most pastors aren't horrible [33:31] people. And uh and so I do get concerned [33:34] that the burn it all down mentality. I [33:38] don't think it's a holy mentality. I [33:40] want to burn down cover up culture. I [33:43] want to burn down disqualified [33:45] leadership. Uh not not like physically. [33:47] Anyway, it's metaphor. Okay. I I want to [33:49] burn all that down. But uh I also want [33:53] to call balls and strikes. I don't want [33:55] to be a mob. and uh and I want to honor [33:58] leadership where it's due. So those are [34:00] a few thoughts. [34:01] >> Yeah. Let me let me push to our next [34:03] subject cuz we're already 30 minutes in [34:04] and and maybe we'll jump to discipline [34:05] quickly. But uh talking about coverup [34:07] culture uh as they view people as they [34:10] view individuals and how exposure [34:12] culture views views people in these uh [34:14] scenarios and I say people as in just [34:16] congregants, people who don't have [34:18] leadership positions. I think coverup [34:20] culture extremely poorly uh uh views [34:23] their congregants. They often view them [34:25] as too fragile to handle the truth. Uh [34:28] there is an assumption that there is a [34:29] spiritual discernment amongst the [34:31] leadership that cannot be carried uh [34:33] among the people. Uh that is a view that [34:35] to me rings of Roman Catholicism that [34:38] only the priests can understand the [34:40] scriptures and the ley can't really [34:42] understand them and they need the [34:42] magisterium to interpret it for them. [34:44] Well, the same seems to be true of uh [34:47] church discipline issues where man, they [34:49] can't handle this. We're going to try to [34:50] handle it quietly, even though this [34:52] person might have a public ministry. And [34:54] and I say this um not to further kick uh [34:58] a brother when while they're down, not [35:00] to further shame people that are trying [35:02] to get their act together, but just as [35:04] an observation that no one will say this [35:05] outright. Um but you'll notice with [35:07] Bethl, they were okay with telling their [35:10] ministry leaders. They were okay with [35:11] telling networks they were close to. Uh [35:13] but they didn't tell their own [35:14] congregation. And Shawn BS was still out [35:16] there doing ministry and they had [35:17] platformed this guy. Now, they're trying [35:19] to own that and and I hope that they [35:20] continue and bearing fruit with [35:21] repentance as it relates to that [35:23] activity. So, again, not trying to kick [35:24] them while they're down. But what we're [35:26] what we're telling people is that man, [35:28] you guys are too fragile for the truth. [35:31] And again, what that does is it takes [35:33] pragmatism. It takes this idea that [35:34] like, well, this works, so let's do it. [35:36] And it lifts it over what the scriptures [35:38] actually command us. Uh the scriptures [35:40] command us in Ephesians 4:15 to expose [35:42] the deeds that are done darkness. [35:43] Matthew 18:16-17 says, "If they won't [35:46] listen to you as you plead for them to [35:47] repent, you go tell it before the [35:49] church." Uh 1 Timothy 5:20 tells us that [35:52] if a if an elder or this leader in the [35:54] church continues to uh act in sin and [35:57] they they won't repent of their sin, [35:58] that you are to publicly rebuke them [36:00] before all so that the rest stand in [36:02] fear. So I think when we treat [36:05] congregants as too fragile for handing [36:07] the truth or for handling the truth, [36:10] what we're doing is we're creating this [36:11] system that says, man, these leaders um [36:14] they're they're really valuable and I [36:17] can't let their ministry be marred by [36:18] this false teacher. But these other [36:20] people over here, they're actually [36:21] really expendable. Um if their lives are [36:24] destroyed because of prophetic words or [36:26] because they've been groomed, etc., [36:28] etc., their their their lives are just [36:30] not as important. So it does two things. [36:32] one, they can't handle this discernment, [36:34] and two, they're just not as important [36:36] as the rest of us. And cover-up culture [36:39] has a pattern of doing this kind of [36:41] activity. Uh, and again, we need to mark [36:43] and avoid that kind of thing. We also [36:45] need to take kind of inventory of our [36:46] heart. And if we're treating our [36:47] churches this way, uh, we need to be [36:50] discerning and say, well, I can't allow [36:51] my my pragmatism, what I think this will [36:54] do to the church to reign over what I'm [36:56] commanded to do in the church. um [36:59] because it will have the effect that you [37:01] know Samuel told the the children of [37:03] Israel, you get a king, you're going to [37:05] have some bad results and we well that [37:07] doesn't matter. We want it anyway and [37:08] we've lifted up this kind of leadership [37:10] structure, this kind of form of [37:11] pragmatism and it's ruling over us and [37:13] it's enslaving the people and it's [37:14] robbing us of our freedoms and liberties [37:16] in Christ. So, um yeah, Roundry, [37:18] thoughts on that. [37:19] >> Yeah, that's good. Well, makes me think [37:21] of just the religious leaders when it [37:23] says, I think it's in John chapter 8, [37:24] when it said uh when they referred to [37:27] the people as cursed rabbel who do not [37:29] know the law. And and I think that's [37:32] exactly what you're talking about with [37:33] uh with cover up culture and congregants [37:35] are just expendable. I'm thinking of uh [37:38] I I'm thinking of a church situation I [37:40] know of where uh church people were [37:42] told, "Hey, if you don't like this [37:44] decision, just go find another church." [37:46] And and I'm just like, what kind of [37:47] shepherd says that? like, "Yeah, just go [37:50] find another flock." And and you know, [37:52] they had made a a hard decision and it [37:55] was a decision that created a lot of [37:58] division and it and it was just like, [37:59] "Yeah, just just go somewhere else." And [38:01] I I think it's like congregants are [38:03] expendable, but man, last I checked, a [38:06] shepherd was supposed to lay his life [38:07] down for the sheep. And so I think [38:09] that's all baked into the um the [38:12] framework of of coverup culture because [38:15] I think it's uh you know you guys are [38:18] expendable. We're going to protect our [38:20] decisions, our image, our brand, and [38:24] everything else is sacrificed on that [38:26] altar. And so it's like, man, we want to [38:28] see shepherds who are laying it down not [38:31] for the brand, but for the sheep. And uh [38:33] and so yeah, I couldn't agree with you [38:35] more, Josh. Should we talk a little bit [38:37] about uh exposure culture on the other [38:40] side as it comes to how they view the [38:41] church? [38:42] >> Yeah. Uh if you want to, we can punch [38:45] back and forth. We've still got the [38:47] whistleblower line and the uh out of [38:49] line congregants viewed as uh threats to [38:51] that stability. And we can we can tackle [38:52] that. If you want to hop over to [38:54] exposure whistleblower, because this is [38:55] a big one, calling like how many people [38:59] are going to call their church members [39:00] the devil, accuser of the brethren. And [39:03] man, I get sick of this. And you know, [39:05] in charismatic culture, there's a spirit [39:06] of everything. You know, there's a [39:08] spirit of this, spirit of that. Uh [39:11] spirit of accusation. I'm so sick of it. [39:15] Uh like that's what's, you know, anytime [39:18] somebody has a criticism, well, you just [39:20] have the spirit of accusation. And and [39:22] I'm just like, no, actually, they just [39:24] have a criticism and you should respond [39:25] to their criticism. And you and you are [39:28] aligning that person with the devil, [39:30] especially when you call them accusers [39:31] of the brethren. That's a huge deal. And [39:34] so what we see consistency consistently [39:36] within cover-up culture is a low view of [39:38] the sheep. Do you want to talk about [39:40] that next one, Josh? [39:42] >> Well, I would just say, yeah, just uh [39:44] right on top of this idea that every [39:46] whistleblower, every victim is some kind [39:48] of accuser of the brethren. There is an [39:49] attempt in coverup culture to not hear [39:52] those statements, not to to try to [39:54] investigate those things carefully, uh, [39:57] but to label people as bitter, uh, as [40:00] wounded, as critical, as offended, as [40:02] influenced by the enemy. And again, you [40:04] can take your pick, but this is a [40:06] litany, uh, of of statements that come [40:08] out from the cover-up culture side of [40:10] things when it comes to people that are [40:11] out of line. But if you already have a [40:13] view of individuals that they're [40:14] expendable, if you already have a view [40:16] that they can't discern things rightly, [40:17] well, you're going to naturally come to [40:19] the conclusion that people who do not [40:20] have power in the institution that are [40:22] coming against the institution are under [40:24] the influence of demonic forces. You're [40:26] going to believe that they are they've [40:28] been deceived and they're bitter because [40:30] you have all the discernment in that [40:32] community. So, I think it's a natural [40:33] byproduct of those things. But, uh I [40:36] think that if you're in a community, uh [40:39] you need to ask why are they okay? Um, [40:42] if you were, imagine you were uh abused, [40:45] and I mean high-handed abuse, okay? Some [40:47] kind of essay sort of activity is taking [40:49] place, and you come out of this church, [40:51] you're horrified, you're mortified, you [40:53] spend 3 years in in in therapy, you [40:56] finally build up the courage to start [40:57] speaking out against someone, don't you [40:59] think you're going to be a little [41:00] bitter? Don't you think you're going to [41:01] be a little offended? Uh, no dip. Like, [41:04] I I don't know what to tell you. Like, [41:05] duh. uh yes, they're going to be bitter [41:08] and offended because something [41:10] absolutely horrible and heinous took [41:11] place in their life and you stood by and [41:13] let it happen and when they vocalized [41:15] it, they were labeled, you know, a [41:17] devil. Uh yes, they're going to be [41:19] bitter. But just because someone's [41:20] bitter doesn't mean something's not [41:22] true. So when someone in your church is, [41:25] oh that person's bitter, okay, what are [41:27] the truth claims they're making? Are [41:28] they true or false? I I don't care if [41:30] someone's bitter. I care if they're [41:31] speaking truth. Um because at the end of [41:34] the day, I'm going to say things. Um [41:38] there there was a guy who's been [41:39] emailing me and Michael and Mike Winger [41:41] recently. Uh a guy who's been busted [41:43] for, you know, prophesying things [41:45] falsely. And uh yeah, I've been saying [41:48] true things to him in emails. Uh but I'm [41:50] starting to get to the point where I'm a [41:51] little angry about it. And yeah, maybe [41:53] I'm not handling it absolutely [41:54] perfectly, but I'm going to say the true [41:56] thing. Uh and I think that that reigns [41:58] over all the other things. [41:59] >> Handled it fine so far. [42:00] >> I appreciate that. Thank you. you get [42:02] out of line. Yeah. But that that's [42:04] >> I'm feeling it, Michael. I'm losing it. [42:06] >> But exposure culture always focus like [42:09] instead of focusing on the sin that [42:11] they're actually being accused of, it's [42:14] always but you didn't do the process [42:17] right. You didn't follow these neat [42:18] prescribed steps. And I I agree there [42:21] are some steps, you know, go to Matthew [42:22] 18, you go to 1 Timothy 5, there are [42:24] some steps involved. Uh but the problem [42:27] is usually when it comes to uh to these [42:29] kinds of situations, those steps have [42:32] been tried and failed miserably. And [42:34] man, I just wanted to I I kept saying [42:37] thank you whenever you were like the [42:38] whole bitter and wounded thing because I [42:40] hear that thing so much. Well, you're [42:41] just bitter and wounded. uh like not [42:44] necessarily to me, but I just hear that [42:45] said to anyone who is commenting on [42:49] coverup culture and all you're doing is [42:52] you are castigating the person who has a [42:54] charge to discredit their claim. All [42:57] that matters is is they said true or [43:00] false. You have shown an inability to [43:03] call balls and strikes. All you can do [43:06] is denigrate the witness and not take [43:07] anything to say into account. And what [43:09] if they are bitter and wounded? Okay. [43:12] Well, maybe they were egregiously sinned [43:15] against. And and also, we shouldn't [43:18] expect a desire and passion for holiness [43:22] to be a cold, emotionless, intellectual [43:26] affair. I mean, look at Phineas. When [43:29] there's sin in the camp, he goes and he [43:31] takes a spear and takes him out and and [43:34] God says to him like, "Hey, dude, that's [43:37] awesome because you were jealous with my [43:40] jealousy." Like what if these [43:43] whistleblowers have a jealousy for the [43:46] Lord's church and and what if the [43:48] problem is that you actually don't and [43:50] you want us to to sit here all prim and [43:52] proper and and say, "Hey, maybe you [43:54] shouldn't abuse people." And I'm like, [43:56] "No." Like maybe you should have a [43:59] little bit of a prophetic edge to you. [44:02] Do you think Jesus when he flipped [44:04] tables over was like, "Hey, can you [44:06] remove the things on that table so I can [44:08] kindly flip it over?" No. Like being a [44:11] prophet of the Lord is not being Ned [44:14] Flanders. Like maybe you should have a [44:16] little edge. Jesus had edge. Woe to you [44:19] scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. [44:21] You sons of hell. You travel over land [44:24] and sea to make a single convert. And [44:26] yet you make them twice as much a son of [44:28] hell as you are. You dead men's bones. [44:30] Uh you know, whiteers full of Yeah. Dead [44:33] men's bones. [44:34] >> All this stuff. [44:36] >> He called Herod a fox. Like Jesus did [44:38] all of those things. But coverup culture [44:40] reads the Bible selectively and and and [44:44] they're like, "Oh, but Matthew 18, but [44:45] this process and and hey, I I'm a big [44:48] fan of Matthew 18. I think it's awesome, [44:51] but you're hiding behind it because [44:53] you're hiding your sin." And when [44:55] Matthew 18 has already been followed and [44:57] addressed and addressed and addressed [44:58] and addressed, you continue to hide [45:00] behind protocol when people are calling [45:03] you out and you won't respond to it. [45:05] Instead, you just call them bitter and [45:06] wounded. They're bitter and wounded [45:08] because of your egregious sin. [45:10] >> Yeah. [45:10] >> Sorry. [45:11] >> Yeah. No, that's that's great. That's [45:13] great. And I think on the flip side, if [45:14] I if I can, you know, shift gears ever [45:16] so slightly and talk about exposure [45:18] culture as it relates to the same [45:19] subject. How does exposure culture view [45:21] people? I am concerned that we can move [45:24] in this direction. I think that guys [45:26] like Mike Winger are setting a really [45:27] good precedent for how we care for [45:30] people, how we care for victims. Um, I'm [45:32] not seeing a whole lot of this right [45:33] now, but I am concerned that the the [45:37] ministry of exposure can be I really [45:40] want these people to come and tell me [45:41] stuff so that I can say, "Look how bad [45:43] it's always been. I knew it was true. I [45:45] was right. These people are bad guys." [45:47] And we're using victims to promote the [45:50] the exposure itself rather than caring [45:52] for the victim themselves. [45:55] In the midst of coverup culture, imagine [45:57] you've been in a culture where you've [45:58] been, you know, abused, taken advantage [46:00] of, uh, viewed as viewed as if you can't [46:03] handle the truth. When you come out and [46:04] you come forward, you know, you're a [46:06] demon. You know, you you're bitter, [46:07] you're angry. And then you go to [46:09] exposure culture people. And the [46:11] exposure culture people, all they want [46:12] to do is get your story so they can tell [46:14] the world how bad this church is or how [46:16] bad that leader is. And they don't [46:18] actually care for the individual. [46:19] They're just a cog in both machines. Uh [46:22] I think what Mike does by offering many [46:24] of these people counseling, trying to [46:26] care for them, trying to pay for um you [46:28] know, third party investigations, he [46:30] he's really putting his money where his [46:31] mouth is. And uh I don't know how we can [46:34] do that as a whole. But I do think that [46:37] part of exposure culture that we need to [46:38] be careful of is not to treat people as [46:41] cogs because they've been treated as [46:42] cogs up until this point. Another area [46:44] that I'm concerned about as it relates [46:46] to coverup culture is is victim status. [46:50] Um, I'm concerned that we can elevate [46:53] individuals in the same way that coverup [46:55] culture wants to elevate people because [46:57] of gifting. Um, I'm I'm concerned that [47:00] cover uh that exposure culture is [47:02] elevating individuals not based on [47:04] character and doctrine, but is basing is [47:06] elevating them based alone on victim [47:08] status. Um, because we all want to [47:10] gather around someone who's been hurt [47:12] and wounded. And I do think that there [47:14] is a good and godly desire to see these [47:16] people healed and to build up and to see [47:19] them restored. Um but you know I'm [47:22] thinking of my friend um Steven Bangars. [47:25] Steven uh came from the new age into [47:29] Christianity and in the new age he was [47:30] making I think he said it was like [47:32] $50,000 a month being a new age guru [47:34] teacher. converted to Christianity, [47:36] started doing apologetic works on uh the [47:38] new age and became instant stardom [47:40] because it was like, "Hey, here's a guy [47:41] who used to be in this lifestyle and now [47:43] he's in this lifestyle and he's like [47:44] living for Jesus and he's he's really [47:46] tearing it up." You look at look at an [47:48] example Christian he was. And 3 years [47:50] into it, he felt really convicted and [47:51] he's like, I went straight to [47:54] essentially what is an elder. I I went [47:55] to an online influencer and I haven't [47:57] had any life in practice as like a [47:59] faithful Christian being discipled in my [48:01] local church and he stepped out of the [48:03] spotlight and just got discipled. [48:05] There's not a onetoone correlation. [48:07] However, um I'm I'm concerned what could [48:10] happen in these spaces where um victim [48:14] status is viewed as uh a kind of a badge [48:17] of honor and people begin to claim um [48:21] things happen to them. We're going to [48:22] talk about this in the exposure culture [48:23] section when it comes to discipline. [48:26] I was abused, you know, I I was [48:29] spiritually abused and when you go and [48:30] you talk to that person, it sounds like [48:32] they were told no. Um, you know, I was I [48:35] I I experienced clergy sexual abuse. Um, [48:38] you know, you fell into sin with a home [48:41] group leader. Um, you committed [48:43] adultery. I I don't know if that's [48:44] clergy sexual abuse. Um, you know, hey, [48:47] uh, I I I got into an argument. I was [48:50] gaslit. A disagreement is not [48:51] gaslighting, right? And and we begin to [48:54] use certain language to receive status [48:57] within our community. I'm concerned [48:59] about that. Um I've seen that begin to [49:01] creep up. That that is something I'm I [49:03] am not only something that I there's [49:05] some of the stuff I can see on the [49:06] horizon. I'm like, "Oo, I I wonder about [49:08] that." But but this is something that [49:09] I'm seeing where people are claiming uh [49:11] that they are victims because it gives [49:14] them some kind of importance and status. [49:17] This is not a anti-listen to victims. [49:19] This is not a hey uh uh you know don't [49:23] listen to the whistleblower. This is me [49:25] saying hey thank you so much for sharing [49:26] that. Let's get you the care that you [49:28] need. Um but but also um we we need to [49:32] be sensitive about what this does to the [49:34] human psyche when they get all of this [49:36] attention overnight. Um I think it's [49:38] something that we need to be careful of. [49:39] Michael, do you want to weigh into any [49:40] of that at all? [49:42] Yeah, it's it's a tough one because I [49:44] you know I do see like if you look at [49:46] Jesus's ministry, who did he so [49:49] routinely side with? He sided with the [49:52] victims. He sided with the oppressed and [49:54] all of this. And so uh you know, as a [49:56] shepherd, I'm always going to lean in on [49:58] that. And uh and yet at the same time, [50:01] uh I think we have to be aware that [50:04] exactly what you described happens. and [50:07] uh and there is a power that comes over [50:10] somebody to claim victim status. And the [50:13] word victim, you know, it's like when I [50:14] read one of Bethl's like there the fact [50:17] that they acknowledged v victims existed [50:19] in their big public apology a couple of [50:22] weeks ago. I'm glad they said there were [50:24] victims, you know, cuz I I think that [50:26] people can can sometimes not want to use [50:29] that word, especially when they're in [50:31] power like that. They don't want to [50:33] acknowledge that they're victims of [50:34] their own ministry and cover up. Um but [50:37] and so I was glad they used the word and [50:39] yet I do think that um if everybody is a [50:42] victim then it actually downplays the [50:45] stories of the real victims. And if [50:47] every sin is abuse then it downplays [50:51] cases of real abuse. And I think one of [50:53] the things that we have to acknowledge [50:55] is that there is something like a scale [50:58] of abuse and there are more severe kinds [51:00] than others. I mean even legally they [51:02] recognize this like oh we had a weapon [51:04] okay so this was extra bad. It's always [51:06] bad, but it's extra bad. He had a [51:07] weapon. You know, uh there is a scale of [51:10] abuse. You know, I think like Mike Bickl [51:12] using prophecy to say his wife's going [51:15] to die and you're going to be in the [51:17] chariot with me. That increases the [51:20] scale. When there's an age difference, [51:21] when there's clergy and power, like all [51:24] of those things add to the layers in the [51:26] scale. But like, you know, you mentioned [51:28] a home group leader who somebody sleeps [51:30] with and they want to call it clergy [51:31] sexual abuse. And you know, could you [51:33] say there's a power differential? I [51:35] mean, home group leader, I mean, but [51:36] like we just have to acknowledge there [51:38] is a there is a scale and uh and I think [51:41] that's part of calling balls and strikes [51:43] and and and and so we want to lean into [51:48] there are real victims, Jesus's [51:50] ministry, especially focused on the [51:52] oppressed. And so I think any pastoral [51:55] ministry uh should really be pressing [51:59] into that and trying to hear deeply and [52:01] listen deeply and minister to those [52:04] hurts. Uh and at the same time we have [52:06] to acknowledge that there are people [52:08] trying to grab power by using the words [52:12] abuse where abuse wasn't present. [52:14] Gaslighting where gaslighting didn't [52:15] exist. uh victim where they actually [52:18] weren't a victim but maybe uh actually [52:21] at least you know some level of culpable [52:24] and so we we just have to acknowledge [52:26] those things. It's uncomfortable to say [52:28] that because you know there is such a [52:31] stark line here between those who are [52:34] exposing on one side and those who are [52:37] abusing and covering up on the other. It [52:39] feels like you have to it if you're [52:42] going to support victims you must always [52:44] go to this other side. But sometimes I I [52:46] do think that on the other side there [52:49] are people grabbing power by using words [52:52] that don't apply. And sometimes somebody [52:54] was sinned against or sometimes somebody [52:56] just had their feelings hurt and they're [52:58] they're using big nasty words to [53:00] describe it and then they're publicizing [53:02] it and that's ruining uh you know that [53:06] that's its own kind of sense. It could [53:08] it could ruin its its own thing. And I [53:11] and I think that's where I'm concerned [53:13] is I'm seeing the beginning stages of [53:15] that kind of language being used. Um you [53:17] know I I talked to a counselor this week [53:19] who said uh I have to at least six times [53:22] a week tell my patients that's not [53:25] gaslighting. Um because it's it's not [53:27] just church stuff. It's become part of [53:29] the modern vernacular and oh here's a [53:32] pop psychology term. It's a real [53:33] psychology term, but people are using it [53:35] in a kind of pop psychology sort of way [53:37] where they're they're uh hypocchondric [53:40] like uh reading an article and going, [53:43] "Oh, that's what happened to me." And [53:44] and they're attaching that kind of [53:45] language to those sorts of situations [53:47] and and that's concerning what that does [53:49] to people. So, I think we need precise [53:52] try to be precise with those kinds of [53:53] terminology. Let's let's talk uh as as [53:56] quickly as we can because I know we're [53:57] getting close to time on discipline. Um [54:00] I'm going to run through a few of these. [54:01] Uh silence is confused with mercy, [54:03] right? Uh to do nothing is a view as [54:05] compassion um towards the individual. [54:07] >> Under culture. [54:08] >> Yeah. Undercover up culture. Yeah. So [54:10] how do they view discipline? Well, by [54:12] not saying anything, I'm actually [54:14] protecting this person from exposure. Uh [54:17] discipline takes a place in a local [54:19] church. It's not it's not it's not a [54:20] public event that takes place online. Uh [54:22] this is a criticism that's been brought [54:24] to us and we actually think it's [54:25] probably a valid criticism uh as it [54:27] relates to biblical context. uh when [54:29] Paul is telling the church in Ephesus to [54:31] expose deeds of darkness, 1 Timothy 5:20 [54:34] when he's saying, "Hey, rebuke an elder [54:35] publicly before all." Um when uh Jesus [54:38] is telling us in Matthew 18 to go tell [54:40] it to the church, he is not talking [54:42] about telling it on YouTube. He's [54:43] talking about telling it to his local [54:45] community, their local churches. I think [54:47] the problem here is that these [54:50] individuals have massive public [54:52] platforms and you can tell these things [54:54] to the church. Uh but that doesn't [54:56] affect their public standing. And I I [55:01] would say that the punishment fits the [55:02] crime in this regard. If you've got a [55:04] local person in your church doing [55:06] ministry and um they are repeatedly in [55:10] this pattern of sin, uh they won't [55:12] repent. That is a hey publicly worn [55:14] before all sort of situation. Um but but [55:17] then on the flip side of that u if they [55:19] don't have a public platform and they're [55:20] not looking to go and do that I don't [55:22] think every exposure needs to be this [55:24] big global exposure. I think the [55:26] punishment fits the crime and if the aim [55:29] of Jesus and the aim of Paul and writing [55:32] these letters is to protect congregants [55:35] from uh coming under the spell of this [55:37] charismatic leader of coming under the [55:39] spell of this person's deception and [55:41] immorality. If that's his aim, then we [55:44] should try to uh apply the text as it [55:47] was intended. Uh there's not a uh you [55:49] know a YouTube following in uh you know [55:52] Southeast Asia during the time that Paul [55:55] is writing this letter. And you know uh [55:57] him and Alexander were not uh o overseas [56:00] all over the place doing all these [56:02] online ministries. Um so when he's [56:04] writing to the church of Ephesus saying [56:06] hey Minus and Alexander these are bad [56:08] dudes watch out mark and avoid. when [56:10] he's saying that, he's saying it to [56:11] protect the people who could be [56:13] following that. So, I think we do have a [56:16] responsibility to publicly uh uh state, [56:19] publicly expose to protect people. [56:22] That's Paul's aim. That's Jesus's aim. [56:24] And any any any capacity in which we [56:27] expose should match that level of [56:29] influence uh with the body of Christ. [56:31] So, I'm not expecting every church that [56:33] has a church discipline issue to make a [56:34] YouTube video and plaster it all over [56:36] the internet. Um, but I I do think that [56:38] we have a responsibility. [56:41] >> I love that because it provides a filter [56:44] for what kind of exposure is necessary [56:47] because you read Ephesians 5:11, it just [56:49] it says expose darkness and it and it [56:51] leaves open the question, okay, well, [56:52] what do I do? Okay, well, somebody [56:54] somebody confessed and repented to me [56:56] or, you know, they, you know, they [56:58] looked at porn last night. Do I need to [56:59] put that on the internet? No. This is [57:02] somebody in your church. They confided [57:04] in you. You don't need to put that in [57:05] the on the internet. That's not what [57:07] Paul's talking about. He's talking about [57:08] unrepentant sin. Those who are [57:10] continuing walking in darkness. Uh, [57:12] okay. So, a local church issue. You you [57:15] have a, you know, kind of a a local [57:17] church uh split or division or problem [57:20] or whatever it is. Expose in so far as [57:24] it's cause as if you didn't expose it [57:28] publicly, YouTube, whatever it is, would [57:32] people victims continue to be hurt the [57:34] world over? Like if Shawn BS wasn't [57:36] warned about to the whole world, well [57:39] then he would continue having his global [57:42] ministry, you know, like dude, I [57:44] remember talking to Mike Bickl uh about [57:47] Chris Reed. You remember when we talked [57:49] about Chris Reed's uh abuse sin issues [57:53] and so uh his prophetic issues and [57:56] anyway, doesn't matter. We've already [57:57] talked about it. So, uh, I remember [57:59] talking to him about that, uh, on the [58:01] phone before Bickl like before it all [58:03] came out. And, uh, and he told me he he [58:08] was like, "I don't know if you need to [58:09] expose it to everybody." And I I gave [58:11] him an analogy. I was like, "Well, uh," [58:14] he's like, "Why don't you just tell the [58:15] church that he sinned against?" This is [58:17] what it was. It was the lying prophecy, [58:19] uh, stealing information. And, uh, he's [58:22] like, "Why don't you just tell that [58:24] local church?" I was like, "Well, then [58:24] he's just going to go to the local [58:26] church down the And he's like, "Well, [58:27] then you can tell that church." I'm [58:28] like, "After the fact." Anyway, we went [58:30] back and forth like that. And I gave him [58:31] an analogy. I was like, "Well, what if [58:33] he cheated on his spouse in one local [58:35] church? Do you only like warn that [58:37] church and just let him cheat somewhere [58:38] else?" And anyway, he kind of hummed and [58:40] hawed. I don't really remember his [58:42] answer, but now, of course, after all [58:43] these revelations, it actually makes [58:45] sense. Um, I I literally used an example [58:48] about adultery that actually [58:50] incriminated Bickl himself and I didn't [58:52] know it at the time. But, um, anyway, [58:55] all all that to say, when you have these [58:57] figures with global ministries, well, [58:59] the globe needs to know. And this is [59:00] actually what you see in church history, [59:02] you know, when uh when Aras is spreading [59:06] his heresy the world over, church [59:08] leaders are writing treatises and [59:09] they're going all around the world. [59:12] They're using the medium of [59:14] communication at the time to reach the [59:17] audiences that will be endangered by it. [59:19] And so I think that's a really good [59:21] filter that you that you shared, Josh, [59:23] because that that shows like are we [59:24] acting in love? Is my real goal just get [59:27] a bigger platform? Is my real goal um ju [59:31] to gain some kind of power here? Uh or [59:34] is my goal to protect sheep who could [59:37] continue being hurt by this ministry? I [59:39] think that's a it's a good filter for [59:41] deciding um how widescale the exposure [59:44] goes. [59:44] >> Yeah. Two more things on coverup culture [59:46] here is that cover up culture assume [59:49] assumes that exposure equals [59:50] destruction. U and we mentioned that a [59:52] moment ago we we assume that this leader [59:55] is kind of you know leading the charge [59:57] and if they are removed then the result [60:00] of that is it's going to destroy the [60:01] church. Uh, I think what people are [60:03] hopefully realizing from all of this [60:05] history is that if IHOP had said, "Hey, [60:08] and I I actually genuinely believe many [60:10] of them did not know. Um, and maybe it [60:13] was all of them. I don't know. Someone's [60:14] personal private sin, I I'm not holding [60:16] other people responsible for it." But [60:18] had had this been revealed and the [60:19] church said, "Nope, you're out. We're [60:21] done." The the the congregants would [60:23] have felt safe. Nothing feels safer than [60:26] a church that's willing to protect its [60:27] people. However, if you are a church [60:30] that's trying to cover that up, if [60:31] you're a church that's trying to hide [60:32] that, people will scatter because they [60:35] will see you as an unfaithful shepherd [60:37] who's got blood on their hands. Um, so I [60:40] would encourage people, don't don't take [60:41] the role, don't take the coverup culture [60:43] model and and say that, oh no, if this [60:45] guy falls, it's going to destroy the [60:46] ministry. Well, if you protect him, it [60:48] will destroy your ministry. Uh, I would [60:50] I would, you know, plead with you that [60:53] you should walk with integrity and show [60:54] people that you're worthy of following. [60:56] Uh, and by standing up to those [60:59] positions of power, it does that. And [61:00] and I I want to be honest with this, a [61:02] lot of people profit from this kind of [61:05] thing. Um, if you're at a church that is [61:07] a part of the Christian industrial [61:08] complex and you're a mega church, uh, [61:11] and your salary is tied up in this whole [61:14] movement, I understand why people are [61:16] are trying to cover stuff up because [61:19] they're trying to make sure that they [61:20] could take care of their family. They [61:21] spent decades in this church. If this [61:23] happens, it's all going to get shot. But [61:25] I'm just saying, it's not worth it. It's [61:27] not worth your integrity. It's not worth [61:28] standing before Jesus and having to give [61:30] an account for those you've shepherded [61:32] and those you've abused and those you've [61:33] let your leader abuse. That's not worth [61:36] it. Um, another thing is that [61:37] restoration conversations happen as [61:40] exposure is taking place. Uh, this is a [61:42] really bad thing I think in coverup [61:43] cultures where hey, this guy fell. It's [61:46] really bad, but we're going to get him [61:46] restored. He's going through a [61:47] restoration process right now. That is [61:49] not something that needs to be [61:50] verbalized. He needs to be restored to [61:51] Christ. But this idea that like, oh, [61:53] we're going to get this guy back into [61:54] ministry tomorrow. Um, that's deeply [61:56] concerning. And I think that the Rick [61:58] Joiners of the world have um made that [62:00] the standard, unfortunately. Uh I don't [62:02] think it is the standard. It's not the [62:04] biblical standard, but hey, this guy, [62:06] you know, Todd Bentley has committed [62:07] adultery again and again and again and [62:09] again. Uh this guy's got substance abuse [62:11] problems. He's been abusing folks. But, [62:13] you know, well, let's get him in a [62:14] restoration plan, get him right back [62:15] into ministry like that. We shouldn't be [62:17] having that conversation the second [62:18] somebody falls. [62:20] >> Um [62:20] >> okay, I got exposure content, but I'll [62:23] give you time to give commentary on that [62:24] as well. [62:24] >> Okay, I'll be fast. I know you're trying [62:26] to finish here. So, um, yeah, it makes [62:28] me think when you talk about how, uh, [62:32] cover up culture churches are instantly [62:35] talking about restoration to ministry [62:37] and and what's that path going to look [62:39] like, which should not even be part of [62:41] the conversation at that stage if [62:42] there's, for instance, a clergy sexual [62:44] abuse uh, situation. And of course, our [62:47] position at Remnant Radio, if you commit [62:49] sexual uh, clergy sexual abuse, you're [62:51] not above reproach and should just go [62:53] get a different job forever. But um [62:56] anyway, but what I was going to say was [62:58] uh it makes me think of a a quote by [63:00] Charles Spurgeon. I'm going to [63:01] paraphrase it, but uh you know, they [63:03] were dealing with the question in their [63:05] day, like you know, if somebody falls [63:07] into some kind of sexual sin as a [63:09] pastor, could they ever be restored? Uh [63:11] and one of the things he said, I I don't [63:13] know that sexual was necessarily the [63:15] sin, but it was just a fall from grace. [63:17] And uh and he said uh we can't really [63:20] even talk about this until their [63:21] repentance is as notorious as the sin [63:24] itself. Uh and and in other words, like [63:28] you know, like if he's not repenting so [63:31] over the top and crazy, like why are you [63:34] even bringing this into the [63:35] conversation? I mean, I think Zakius is [63:36] a good model repentance who like goes [63:39] beyond the Levitical law and paying [63:41] people back uh that he stole from. And [63:44] for I think the cover up culture, it's [63:46] pretty much I'm sorry is good enough and [63:49] I'm sorry but that's not good enough. Uh [63:52] Josh, you want to talk about exposure [63:53] culture? [63:54] >> Yeah. So this is on the other end of um [63:56] the discipline piece where coverup [63:58] culture silence is confused with mercy. [64:01] I I think in the exposure culture, [64:03] justice is confused with anarchy. This [64:05] idea of again just burn it to the [64:06] ground. Uh, I'm actually concerned that [64:09] there's a lot of people who really have [64:12] disliked Bethl because of teaching and [64:14] practice and and I'm I'm with you. Like [64:16] you you've seen my videos on uh Copeland [64:18] goes to Bethl. You've seen my videos on [64:20] the physics of heaven. Um I I've got [64:23] some problems with the Passion [64:24] translation. I've got problems with the [64:26] fact that Bob Jones is teaching people [64:28] to deep breathe uh and travel to heaven. [64:31] Like I think there's some newagy stuff [64:33] there that is weird and wicked and bad. [64:35] Um, I think that there's some there's a [64:37] frequency of error uh in their teaching [64:39] that begins to emerge and the practices [64:41] that emerge from that that that I'm I'm [64:43] really concerned about. Um, but but when [64:46] this stuff all happened, the the kind of [64:48] rally cry of so many people in the [64:50] comments that I'm seeing is like finally [64:52] burn let's burn this thing to the [64:53] ground. And I'm just like, man, that's [64:55] not redemptive. Like there are people of [64:58] God in that church. And the redemptive [65:00] plan would be like, let's get them a [65:01] godly shepherd to clean this thing up to [65:04] care for those people. Um, does a Chris [65:07] and a Bill need to step down so that [65:08] this thing can happen? Yeah, I think so. [65:10] Uh, but but let's get some people with [65:12] character and some solid doctrine in [65:14] there that can care and shepherd those [65:16] people. I don't think anarchy is the [65:18] answer. I don't think burn it to the [65:19] ground. Is there there are times when um [65:22] the the church has to take an evaluation [65:24] and say, "Look, everything we're doing [65:26] is unbiblical. uh every every our [65:29] leadership structure is unable [65:30] everything is bad. Um and and maybe we [65:33] need to decide as a church just to close [65:34] down and recommend some really good [65:36] godly u uh churches in the area that [65:38] people can go to. Maybe that's an option [65:40] for the local church and that local [65:42] church needs to decide that. Uh but I do [65:44] think in the vast majority of situations [65:46] we we need to have a redemptive edge to [65:48] all of the exposure stuff. We we need to [65:51] say hey we we want to make this public [65:52] appeal uh that this person has fallen [65:54] into sin so that the others will repent [65:57] that the others will will stand in fear [65:58] and awe will come over the church of the [66:00] holiness of God. I it's not so that we [66:03] can destroy ministries. Our hope and our [66:05] aim is so that we can protect the church [66:07] from bad guys. So I would hope that our [66:10] focus on exposure culture doesn't [66:13] confuse justice with this kind of uh [66:16] nihilist view of like it's all [66:18] worthless. let's all burn it. And and [66:20] I'm I am concerned that that is a [66:22] byproduct of something that we're [66:23] seeing. [66:25] >> Yeah. No, that that's good. I I think [66:27] when you bring up like, hey, the idea, [66:29] hey, Bethl Church should shut down. One [66:31] of the arguments I've seen is because [66:33] Bethl Church isn't a church. And you [66:35] know, like you said, Josh, we've seen [66:37] they bring Kenneth Copeland out, whom we [66:39] say is a heretic. They have physics of [66:41] heaven, which teaches heresy, all of [66:43] that. Uh but I would say it is still a [66:46] church. Um the church in Thotyra in the [66:49] book of Revelation is called a church [66:51] even though they tolerate that wicked [66:53] woman Jezebel. And so she's she's a [66:56] prophetist but essentially a false [66:57] teacher. And so there there is a a [67:00] synratistic [67:02] oh excuse me allowance that's taking [67:04] place in the church of Thotyra. And I [67:06] would say that does happen at Bethl. But [67:08] and but Jesus also says you have those [67:10] who don't hold to her teaching. And [67:12] that's a good thing. And and so what you [67:14] see is Jesus doesn't view the definition [67:16] of the church as being what church [67:19] leaders allow in their bookstore or what [67:21] church leaders say from the pulpit [67:22] necessarily. Like I I don't think it [67:24] could be just defined as that. Uh a a [67:27] church is defined by the people. Do the [67:29] people hold to orthodox teaching? Even [67:32] if a pastor is teaching heresy from the [67:34] stage, if the people are believers and [67:37] not don't believe in that. Um, of course [67:39] you get into all kinds of weird stuff [67:41] like you have to ask like why would a [67:42] faithful believer who like stay at a [67:44] church that teaches heresy. You know, [67:46] there's all that stuff. My point with [67:48] Bethl is there are actually a lot of [67:51] Jesus loving people who go to Bethl. [67:53] Bethl has egregiously and systemically [67:57] contributed to and been part of and [68:00] exported coverup culture. They have [68:03] tolerated heresy and false teachings. It [68:06] is abominable and disgusting in every [68:09] way. That's actually true at the same [68:12] time that it's true that there are [68:14] Jesusloving people there and not just a [68:16] few, quite a few Jesusloving people [68:18] there. And so I think you would still [68:20] say it's a church that has allowed some [68:22] mess to get in. And uh and so I wouldn't [68:25] say burn it down. I hope that they [68:27] redeem this. My opinion, I think [68:31] everybody who knew about Ben Armstrong [68:32] needs to step down. I think senior [68:34] leaders need to step down. And I think [68:36] they just need to give it a fresh start. [68:38] And I think that's actually the best [68:39] hope for Bethl. And I just want to say [68:41] to some of these older leaders, hey, you [68:42] guys have almost completed like you're [68:45] kind of older, right? Like you're almost [68:46] at the end anyway. Step down. Let some [68:48] of these young bucks surely. I hope. [68:50] Have you been discipling anyone? Surely [68:52] there's some younger folks in there. Um [68:54] I mean I was glad to see like when their [68:55] internet pastor or whatever the YouTube [68:57] I don't know what you even call it, but [68:59] he said, "Thank you, Mike Winger. We're [69:01] glad you did your videos and we love [69:03] like man that's awesome. That's the kind [69:05] of person that like if you put someone [69:07] like that and I don't know anything [69:08] about him other than that one statement [69:10] but like people who get it that's your [69:13] best hope for survival. Uh and certainly [69:16] there this this mess that you put up [69:18] with and physics of heaven all that [69:19] that's got to be dealt with [69:21] >> to to be fair on all of that. Their [69:23] alumni they have been calling they have [69:26] been spearheading this whole thing. Like [69:28] yes Mike Winger has been making content [69:30] but their alumni people they have [69:32] trained are the ones who are like this [69:33] Ben Armstrong thing is bad. This Kenneth [69:35] Copeland thing is bad. So like to your [69:37] point that that's kind of what I'm [69:39] appealing to is that first Corinthians [69:41] there's sexual immorality there's false [69:43] teaching. There's jocking of celebrity [69:44] leadership. But Jesus starts the letter [69:47] saying Jesus Paul starts the letter [69:49] through the inspiration of the Holy [69:50] Spirit, right? Get me all tied up with [69:52] technicalities. Um is saying, "Hey, [69:54] you're the hagios. You're the holy [69:56] ones." So there I think if Paul can give [69:59] that church the opportunity to clean up [70:00] their mess, I I think that he extends [70:02] that same opportunity. And I'm with you [70:04] that that that same guy who's like, [70:06] "Mike, we love you." You know, is saying [70:08] that we are re-evaluating as a [70:10] leadership team everything at Bethl [70:11] Church. And if this is true repentance, [70:14] and it seems to be true, as far as I can [70:15] tell, up until this point, I we still [70:17] need to see them bearing fruit and [70:18] keeping with repentance, we would want [70:21] the restoration and care of those [70:22] people. And maybe they decide it doesn't [70:23] work. Hey, go to these churches. I I'm [70:25] fine with them making that decision. But [70:27] I I think that there's a lot of people [70:29] who are looking for mob justice. They're [70:32] looking for burn it to the ground. And [70:33] the reason they're doing it is because [70:34] they've always not liked Bethl. And this [70:37] finally gives them an opportunity to to [70:38] say, "Hey, let's put the final nail in [70:40] the coffin." Um, and that's con that's [70:42] concerning. Um, we we cannot, you know, [70:46] Deuteron, I'm sorry, Deuteronomy, [70:47] Exodus, uh, 32 30, sorry, 23:2, I'm [70:50] going pull it up. It says, "You shall [70:52] not follow a multitude to do evil, nor [70:54] shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, [70:56] siding with the multitude so to pervert [70:58] justice." Um, and I do think mob justice [71:01] is a part of cancel culture that I'm [71:02] concerned about. I'm concerned that [71:04] people will see, hey, I I want to find [71:07] myself in the virtuous camp and I want [71:10] to speak out loudly and turn mountains [71:12] in uh mole hills into mountains because [71:15] uh I uh I want to be seen as the side of [71:18] the good and the holy and the and the [71:19] protectors of doctrine and those who [71:21] have moral character. And I I'm [71:23] concerned that people are going to jump [71:25] onto things that are abuse that are not [71:28] abuse. they're going to claim things um [71:31] that that aren't the case because there [71:33] is this mob justice mentality uh that's [71:36] taking place in exposure culture. What [71:38] I'm what I'm talking about and I hope [71:39] people can hear this. I'm not even [71:41] pointing to specific YouTubers or [71:43] ministries per se, but actually what I'm [71:45] seeing in the masses when it comes to [71:47] exposure culture content. Um there is [71:50] this this desire that anyone who falls [71:52] is in this perpetual state of [71:53] disqualification. You know, I'm over [71:55] here looking at the Mark Driscolls of [71:57] the world and I'm thinking to myself [71:59] like, man, I wish he would have repented [72:00] for the stuff he did. I wish he would [72:02] have owned the stuff that he did. I [72:03] think had he done that, um, I would have [72:06] a different opinion of Mark Driscoll [72:07] today. I don't think the guy's [72:09] heavy-handed leadership perpetually [72:10] disqualifies him. I think he needed to [72:11] get some counseling. I think he needed [72:13] to get some care. And I think he needed [72:14] to legitimately repent. I haven't seen [72:16] that. So, I'm not placing the stamp of [72:18] approval as it relates to my personal [72:20] opinion uh here on this program on a [72:22] Mark Driscoll because I'm concerned that [72:24] he has not repented of those actions. Um [72:26] so, so I'm saying nope, let's let's [72:28] avoid that for sure. But I don't think [72:31] that that kind of leadership structure, [72:33] that kind of leadership uh model in and [72:35] of itself is like, okay, never again [72:37] ministry ever again. Um but I am I am [72:40] concerned um about that kind of mob [72:43] justice mentality. Let's get everyone [72:45] out of the bull pit. let's attack anyone [72:46] and everyone if they've done anything [72:48] wrong. Let's perpetually get rid of [72:49] them. Um I think there's a lot of really [72:51] good guys who are going to potentially [72:54] in the coming decades uh lose a lot of [72:57] um [72:59] a lot of right ministry um a lot of good [73:02] holy work um because of this kind of mob [73:04] justice. U because when you take all [73:06] these things into into play, all you [73:07] need is a mob justice. All you need is [73:10] um uh anarchy. All you need is those [73:12] sorts of things. And if there's a lack [73:13] of evidence, we've then crucified [73:15] innocent men. And we need to be careful [73:17] of of that kind of blood guilt on our [73:20] hands. Michael, I'm gonna punt it back [73:22] over to you, my friend. [73:23] >> Yeah, I I think I don't know. You [73:26] brought up an interesting point about [73:27] Mark Mark Driscoll. Could he ever be [73:29] restored if there was a full-fledged [73:31] repentance? I I don't know. It's a great [73:33] question because above reproach means [73:35] above reproach and he caused egregious [73:38] harm to thousands of people. Uh, so that [73:42] would be a tough one. If there was an [73:44] insane repentance in decades later, [73:46] maybe I could say yes. But, uh, that [73:48] would be a hard one for me. Either way, [73:50] I get your point. It's about, this is [73:51] about redemption. Galatians 6:1, we want [73:53] to restore a brother. Of course, that's [73:54] to restore to Jesus, not to necessarily [73:56] a ministry, but we do want to have [73:58] restorative and redemptive hearts. Um, [74:01] but not everybody needs to be a pastor, [74:02] and that's okay. Uh, I think I'll just [74:04] finish because I we're like way past [74:06] time, but um, I want to read this one [74:08] quote from T. Trevor. Uh it's a little [74:10] back in the chat. He says, "Is God's [74:12] hand shortened that he needs YouTubers [74:14] to step in to advise and manage the [74:16] corrective path of a brickandmortar [74:18] operating church ministry?" Uh well, I [74:20] think any question that begins with does [74:22] God need the answer is no. Uh but does [74:26] God use? I think the answer is yes. If [74:28] it hadn't been for YouTubers, Bethl [74:30] would not have repented. That's a good [74:32] fruit. And have they repented? I don't [74:34] think they fully repented, but they [74:35] wouldn't have even said sorry. Um, [74:38] number two, Mike Bickl would have never [74:40] been exposed. He would have been [74:41] continuing to groom and sexually and [74:44] spiritually abuse young women. This has [74:46] been a good thing. And we could cite [74:48] many examples. And when we look down [74:51] through church history and even back [74:52] before that, I mean, in the Old [74:54] Testament, you have Elijah and Elisha [74:55] and they're kind of out on the fringes [74:57] and uh and uh and then you see, you got [75:00] prophets hiding in caves and stuff. [75:03] Uh, and you see in the New Testament, [75:04] John the Baptist was the voice in the [75:06] wilderness. And certainly not calling us [75:08] John the Baptist. I'm making some [75:10] analogies here. And uh, and then you see [75:13] like down through church history and and [75:15] look at John uh, John Wesley kicked out [75:17] of the church and he says, "The world is [75:19] my parish and the people came out." Uh, [75:21] and so when institutions, when that [75:24] cover up culture preserves its brand and [75:26] preserves its image and silences and [75:29] shuts down and abuses and oppresses the [75:31] sheep, God will find a way for his voice [75:34] to get out there. And the point that [75:36] we're making is no, I don't think [75:38] YouTube is the ideal. I don't I think [75:41] the ideal is things get tackled in [75:44] healthy local churches that have [75:47] biblical processes in place that allow [75:49] leaders to get rebuked. But the truth is [75:52] that hardly ever happens. I mean if if [75:55] somebody has an issue with a leader and [75:57] and they say, "Hey, first Timothy 5, we [75:59] got nine witnesses here who say you've [76:00] done this thing." What church is going [76:02] to say, "Yeah, let's set up a church [76:04] meeting so that you can do that [76:05] publicly." Um most churches don't. the [76:08] leaders are going to say, "Uh, yeah, [76:09] actually I don't want to be rebuked [76:11] publicly, so uh, scurry along now." Uh, [76:14] and so in these churches where we can't [76:17] even where where the corrective voice is [76:22] continually silenced, well, God finds a [76:24] way for it to get out. And so, in that [76:26] way, I think YouTube's good. And I think [76:28] it also meets the moment where you have [76:30] YouTube prophets prophesying false [76:32] things over millions of people. Who's [76:36] going to deal with that? I mean [76:37] certainly it'd be ideal if someone in [76:38] their apostolic network would do so and [76:40] it never happens. Uh so I think the best [76:43] way yeah is YouTube considering the [76:46] options we have. So in a perfect world [76:50] healthy churches would handle all this [76:52] and uh when churches are violating that [76:54] and oppressing and silencing sheep well [76:56] God finds a way. So I think that would [76:58] be my answer. Josh you want to close out [77:00] this episode or make any other comments [77:01] on that? [77:02] >> Yeah I would just I agree with all of [77:03] it. Uh, I would also say that for people [77:05] who are watching, I hope you understand [77:07] why Mike Winger is making the content [77:09] he's making. I hope that you understand [77:10] why we're making the content we're [77:11] making. Um, we're actually just trying [77:14] to help the white blood cells of the [77:15] church do their job. And when [77:18] congregants realize, hey, this is a big [77:20] deal. When elders realize, oh, this is a [77:21] big deal. When we learn from the history [77:23] of the past, we're not doomed to repeat [77:25] it. And I I hope that we are making [77:28] content, especially on content like [77:30] this, that helps you identify, yeah, [77:32] this is coverup culture. we need to fix [77:33] it. Oh, this is when exposure culture [77:35] maybe has gone a little too far. We need [77:37] to course correct. And hopefully we're [77:39] training the body of Christ on how to do [77:41] this because uh I think there's a day [77:43] that Mike Winger and and the Minor [77:45] Prophets and Remnant Radio and Steven [77:48] Kosar. I I I hope the day is coming [77:50] where we don't make this kind of [77:51] content. We don't want to make this kind [77:53] of content. It's not fun to make. [77:55] However, if we can train the body of [77:56] Christ how to do this in their own local [77:58] church, then it will replace us. uh [78:01] we're we're you you know you're doing [78:03] ministry well when you're replaceable. [78:05] Um when you're a youth pastor and you're [78:07] raising up youth pastors, when you're [78:09] you know an associate guy and you've [78:10] raised up associate guys, when you're [78:11] disciplehip model looks like making you [78:14] irrelevant, that's a good and godly [78:16] thing. And and our hope is that we don't [78:18] have to keep doing this. We we want to [78:20] train the body of Christ to do it. So [78:21] but they can do it in their local [78:23] churches. We agree with that person [78:24] who's out there who's like, "Hey, this [78:26] should be done on the local level, not [78:27] by YouTubers." I would say, "Yeah, yeah, [78:28] yeah, absolutely." And when the church [78:30] starts doing that, we won't. We don't [78:32] want to. Um, that is the biblical model. [78:34] It's what God wants. And it again [78:36] creates that that system of safety for [78:38] those local members. So, okay guys, uh, [78:41] this is a good place to wrap up. Thank [78:43] you so much for tuning into this [78:44] episode. I encourage you uh, jump [78:46] online, uh, subscribe, you know, share, [78:49] do all those fun things if you're uh, [78:50] really thankful for the content we're [78:52] producing. Uh, leave us a, you know, a [78:54] review on Spotify, Google Play, whatever [78:56] that you're listening to. And uh make [78:58] sure to check out the course over at [78:59] theradio.com. We did open up [79:01] registration, so go uh check that out. [79:03] We've got registration open for the next [79:05] three weeks. Uh this a limited time [79:06] because we have spring and fall [79:07] semesters. So make sure to snad uh [79:09] snatch up a spot uh because we only have [79:11] limited spots there on the course. Guys, [79:13] thank you so much for tuning in and [79:14] we'll see you next time. Peace out.