Creating Better Publishing Workflows in WordPress

Creating Better Publishing Workflows in WordPress 🔗 **Source:** [Creating Better Publishing Workflows in WordPress](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM4XYS9OEHo) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress-publishing, open-source-business, publishing-workflows] > author: WP Minute > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM4XYS9OEHo > date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Creating Better Publishing Workflows in WordPress >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate business model risks — avoid single-client dependency like government contracts #business - [H2] Consider AI for custom feature development — use AI to create niche snippets for customers #development - [H3] Plan brand consolidation strategy — merge smaller brands under main brand for easier marketing #branding ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [PublishPress](https://publishpress.com) - [TaxoPress](https://taxopress.com) ## 📝 Summary - Steve Burge discusses his 20+ year journey in WordPress and open source, from teaching to building publishing workflow plugins - Why WordPress succeeded where other CMS platforms failed: business model allowing plugin ecosystem to thrive - Current state of WordPress publishing workflows and the technical challenges of real-time collaboration - How AI is being integrated into WordPress development and customer support - Strategic decision to consolidate multiple plugin brands under PublishPress umbrella ## 📖 Main Content Steve Burge, founder of Ramble Ventures (PublishPress, TaxoPress, etc.), shares insights from two decades in open source development. Originally a teacher who moved into web development for financial reasons, Burge explains how the open source movement's collaborative values kept him engaged beyond just business opportunities. The conversation reveals WordPress's competitive advantage: unlike Drupal (which discouraged commercial modules) or Joomla (which lacked business backing), WordPress created a sustainable ecosystem where small businesses could sell plugins while contributing to the platform's growth. Burge identifies a key gap that drove his focus on publishing workflows: enterprise clients often chose Drupal simply because it had permissions and publishing controls in core, while WordPress required plugins for these features. This represents the 1-10% of users who need advanced workflow management beyond WordPress's basic draft-pending-published system. The discussion covers technical challenges in implementing real-time collaboration (Phase 3 Gutenberg), comparing the complexity of making Google Docs-style editing work across diverse hosting environments versus centralized platforms. Current AI integration focuses on development assistance, customer support, and translation rather than end-user features within WordPress itself. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=0) — Introduction to Steve Burge - Key idea: Steve Burge founded Ramble Ventures, creator of PublishPress and other WordPress plugins - Evidence: "founder of Ramble Ventures, the company behind popular plugins like Publish Press, Taxo Press, Made Slider, and Logivity" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=135) — From Teaching to Open Source - Key idea: Career transition from education to development was financially motivated but values-driven - Evidence: "I wanted to be a teacher... until I moved to the United States and saw what they pay teachers here" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=270) — Open Source Revolutionary Period - Key idea: 2003-2004 was the breakthrough period for open source CMS platforms - Evidence: "back then 2003, 2004, there was the kind of buzz that you probably have about AI now. It was open source was a revolutionary idea" #### ⏱️ [06:45](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=405) — Government Training Business - Key idea: Early business focused on training government departments on open source platforms - Evidence: "Barack Obama moved the White House website over to Drupal, which was a huge win for open source" #### ⏱️ [09:20](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=560) — Business Model Crisis - Key idea: Dependence on government contracts created vulnerability when Ted Cruz shut down government - Evidence: "we didn't have 30 high-profile clients. We had one, which was the US government. And all of them had gone away overnight" #### ⏱️ [11:40](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=700) — WordPress vs Drupal Decision Factors - Key idea: Clients chose Drupal over WordPress for built-in permissions and publishing controls - Evidence: "most of them would say things like they needed the permissions systems they needed the lockdown the control" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=930) — WordPress Business Model Advantage - Key idea: WordPress succeeded by enabling plugin businesses while Drupal discouraged commercial modules - Evidence: "WordPress got it right in terms of allowing a ecosystem of small businesses to grow up around it" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=1125) — Publishing Workflow Niche - Key idea: Advanced workflow tools serve only 1-10% of WordPress users, appropriately placed in plugin territory - Evidence: "even people with several staff members all writing content can normally get away with just using draft pending review and published" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=1330) — Real-time Collaboration Challenges - Key idea: Google Docs-style editing in WordPress faces severe technical challenges across diverse hosting - Evidence: "Getting that to work on low-end hosting... How do you make that happen? We don't know. Honestly I don't think anyone knows yet" #### ⏱️ [26:15](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=1575) — Notes Feature Enhancement Plans - Key idea: PublishPress plans to extend WordPress's new notes feature with site-wide visibility and notifications - Evidence: "we're soon going to add a screen to our blocks plug-in that will show all of the notes that are available on a site" #### ⏱️ [29:30](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=1770) — Current AI Integration - Key idea: AI being used for development support, translations, and customer service rather than end-user features - Evidence: "almost all the AI that we use is outside of WordPress... customer support increasingly... translating our plugins" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=1960) — AI for Custom Features - Key idea: Using AI to generate custom code snippets for niche customer requests - Evidence: "We do use quite a bit of AI to vibe code little short snippets to provide that feature to customers" #### ⏱️ [34:20](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=2060) — Brand Consolidation Strategy - Key idea: Moving from 12 separate plugin brands to unified PublishPress ecosystem - Evidence: "I think next year we'll end up collapsing all of those under the publish press brand" ## 📚 References - [PublishPress](https://publishpress.com) - [TaxoPress](https://taxopress.com) - [WP Minute Podcast](https://wpminute.com) - [Easy Digital Downloads](https://easydigitaldownloads.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WordPress succeeded where other CMS platforms failed by creating a sustainable business model that allowed plugin developers to build commercial products while contributing to the ecosystem - Advanced publishing workflows serve a small percentage of WordPress users (1-10%) who need more than basic draft-pending-published status, making plugins the appropriate solution rather than core features - Real-time collaboration in WordPress faces significant technical challenges due to diverse hosting environments, unlike centralized platforms like Google Docs ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Publishing Workflows: Lessons from 20+ Years in Open Source** Steve Burge's journey from educator to WordPress plugin developer offers valuable insights into building sustainable businesses in the WordPress ecosystem. His company's focus on publishing workflows addresses a clear gap: while most users can work with WordPress's basic publishing states, enterprise clients need advanced permissions and approval processes. Key takeaway: WordPress's success stems from enabling commercial plugin development, creating a thriving ecosystem that benefits both developers and users. As we look toward AI integration and real-time collaboration features, the balance between core functionality and plugin territory remains crucial. The upcoming consolidation of multiple plugin brands under PublishPress demonstrates the value of building cohesive product ecosystems rather than standalone tools. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate which enterprise features belong in core vs plugin territory for publishing workflows - Community: Support plugin developers building complementary ecosystems around core features - Documentation: Create guides for enterprise publishing workflow implementations #### Business Strategy - Assess dependency risks in client portfolios to avoid single points of failure - Consider brand consolidation benefits for marketing and ecosystem development - Explore AI integration for customer support and development efficiency ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress's commercial plugin ecosystem model provides more sustainable growth than platforms that restrict commercial development - Advanced publishing workflows serve a small enough user percentage that plugin solutions are more appropriate than core features - AI will be more valuable for development assistance and customer service than end-user features in the short term - Brand consolidation improves marketing efficiency and ecosystem coherence for plugin businesses ### 📊 Methodology - Compare WordPress plugin ecosystem growth with Drupal and Joomla commercial development over 20-year period - Survey enterprise WordPress users on publishing workflow needs and current solutions - Analyze customer support ticket patterns to identify AI automation opportunities ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress core better support enterprise publishing needs without bloating the platform? - What technical solutions could make real-time collaboration feasible across diverse hosting environments? - How should plugin businesses balance standalone products versus integrated ecosystems? ### 🔮 Future Research - Technical feasibility study for real-time collaboration on shared hosting - Enterprise WordPress adoption patterns and decision factors - AI integration opportunities in WordPress development workflows ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Plugin developers should consider ecosystem approaches rather than standalone products - Policy: WordPress core development should maintain 80/20 philosophy for publishing features - Education: Need for enterprise WordPress workflow training and documentation - Funding: AI tools for development assistance may provide competitive advantages for plugin businesses ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Interview format with clear topic transitions - Improve: Workflow diagrams, ecosystem comparison charts, technical architecture visuals #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio interview available on podcast platforms - Improve: Chapter markers for key topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear explanations of technical concepts, business terminology defined - Improve: Glossary of WordPress publishing terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Practical examples of plugin usage scenarios - Improve: Hands-on publishing workflow setup guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships in business decisions - Improve: Decision trees for publishing workflow selection #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community aspects of open source development discussed - Improve: Discussion prompts about business model choices #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual business insights and reflection opportunities - Improve: Self-assessment tools for publishing workflow needs #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem metaphors for WordPress plugin relationships - Improve: Evolution timeline of CMS platforms ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Alternative text for any visual elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard web navigation available - Improve: Skip links for transcript sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast ratios - Improve: Option for high-contrast viewing #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Timestamped captions for video version ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused business examples with some international context - Improve: Global WordPress business model examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional terminology, technical jargon explained - Improve: Avoid business idioms that may not translate #### Representation - Present: Single perspective from experienced developer - Improve: Diverse voices in WordPress ecosystem discussions ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: WordPress success model reasoning well-supported with examples - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from 20+ years experience provides solid foundation - Causal reasoning: Clear cause-and-effect relationships in business decisions #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful WordPress businesses may not represent full ecosystem - Hasty generalization: Government contract experience may not apply to all B2B relationships #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, experienced, pragmatic with specific examples and honest assessment of challenges ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No defensive patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on critics or competitors - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals noted - Emotional cues: Positive, collaborative tone throughout discussion ## 🎯 Conclusion Steve Burge's insights reveal how WordPress's business-friendly ecosystem enabled sustainable plugin development where other platforms failed. The focus on publishing workflows addresses real enterprise needs while respecting WordPress's 80/20 philosophy. As WordPress evolves toward real-time collaboration and AI integration, maintaining the balance between core functionality and plugin territory will be crucial for continued ecosystem health. The strategic shift toward brand consolidation under PublishPress demonstrates the evolution from standalone products to integrated ecosystems, reflecting broader trends in WordPress business development. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] WordPress enables sustainable plugin businesses unlike other CMS platforms > [!quote] [Creating Better Publishing Workflows in WordPress](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo) by Steve Burge via WP Minute. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "WordPress got it right in terms of allowing a ecosystem of small businesses to grow up around it." Contrast with Drupal's restriction on commercial modules and Joomla's lack of business backing for growth. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=930#H1) #wordpress-business #ecosystem ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Advanced publishing workflows serve niche WordPress user segment > [!quote] [Creating Better Publishing Workflows in WordPress](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo) > "Even people with several staff members can normally get away with just using draft pending review and published." Enterprise workflow tools needed only for 1-10% of users, appropriate for plugin territory. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/bM4XYS9OEHo?t=1125#H2) #publishing-workflows #plugin-territory ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. Split level: H4 #### [Z1] Business model determines open source platform success - Applies to --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Hi everyone and welcome to the WP [00:02] Minute. I'm your host Eric Caravac. [00:05] Today's guest is Steve Burge, the [00:07] founder of Ramble Ventures, the company [00:09] behind popular plugins like Publish [00:11] Press, Taxo Press, Made Slider, and [00:14] Logivity. He's also the host of the [00:16] Publish Press podcast. Steve, welcome to [00:19] the WP Minute. [00:20] >> Hey, thanks, Hook. [00:23] So, I know you've been around uh the [00:25] open-source movement for a long time. I [00:28] read in your bio that it was what 2003. [00:31] So that's the first year WordPress uh [00:33] had a release as well. So tell me a [00:35] little bit about your background in open [00:37] source. How did you come to it? [00:38] >> Well, I wanted to be a teacher. My my [00:43] family are all teachers. Uh my [00:47] my mother was a principal. My sister is [00:49] now a principal. I loved uh being a [00:53] teacher and I thought I'd be a teacher [00:57] for my whole career until I moved to the [00:58] United States and saw what they pay [01:01] teachers here [01:03] >> and and then I kind of [01:06] >> um ended that career path real quick as [01:09] um I taught for a couple of years here [01:12] and then uh had kids and a mortgage and [01:16] suddenly I needed to do something else [01:18] that wasn't teaching. So why open- [01:21] source? Like what attracted you to it in [01:24] a as opposed to maybe like other kinds [01:26] of development, you know, maybe becoming [01:28] a Windows or a Mac developer? [01:31] Well, back then 2003, 2004, there was [01:35] the kind of buzz that you probably have [01:38] about AI now. It was open source was a a [01:43] revolutionary idea. [01:45] um and a lot of the open source CMS's [01:48] were uh bursting onto the scene. It was [01:52] it was a good time to jump on that train [01:54] and [01:56] and the values [01:59] struck me then and still strike me now [02:04] of building on a a shared platform that [02:09] people can contribute to, of sharing [02:13] your code. I I wouldn't have I I [02:17] wouldn't have stuck around. I think if [02:18] id have got into developing on a Windows [02:21] platform or a Mac platform, I think I [02:24] would have been out of the business. The [02:26] um the business opportunity got me into [02:29] it at first, but the the values that we [02:33] share as a community have kept me around [02:35] for [02:37] all those years now. [02:39] Um, so you know, I think one of the [02:42] reasons I've stuck around with WordPress [02:43] for so long is because it has a [02:45] community, right? And and it's not a [02:47] faceless uh enterprise kind of like, you [02:50] know, developing for Windows or Mac or [02:52] or whatever other platform out there. [02:55] Um, it it seems to be like a common [02:59] thread between us, right? That we we [03:01] stick around because we we love the [03:02] community and we love to contribute to [03:04] something bigger. [03:05] >> Yeah. You wouldn't get that feeling [03:06] working inside a big corporation. I know [03:09] I know some friends who have done that [03:11] and they they certainly don't. Um and [03:16] uh the ecosystem has been has been good [03:19] to me over the years. I have looking [03:22] back 20 plus years later. I have no [03:25] complaints over the people I've got to [03:27] work with, the uh the places I've been [03:31] able to go to, the uh the people that [03:34] I've met along the way. It's been [03:36] something I look back on with pleasure [03:38] and hopefully there's a good few more [03:39] years yet left uh left in the ecosystem [03:42] now. [03:43] >> Yeah. I mean I I don't think for a piece [03:45] of open source software to make it 20 [03:47] plus years. It it doesn't happen without [03:50] community. It doesn't happen without um [03:52] you know people wanting to be here, [03:55] right? I mean even with you know [03:57] disagreements with leadership and things [03:59] like that. I mean, I I it's great that I [04:01] think people continue to stick around [04:03] and continue to to um to to come [04:06] together for it. [04:08] And there's a I think there's a wider [04:12] ecosystem on the web of not not 100% [04:16] exactly the the same approach, but um an [04:21] ecosystem with similar values. You look [04:23] at things like um like Wikipedia [04:26] of of building things together in common [04:31] and having them last [04:34] beyond your work. You see the values now [04:37] of open source are increasingly [04:42] increasingly at play in the AI world um [04:45] in interesting ways. [04:47] So, I've seen you've you've written a [04:50] several books, co-authored several books [04:52] about um web development and open- [04:55] source CMS. Uh, and your company's [04:59] plugins tend to focus on the publishing [05:01] aspect of things. How did those two two [05:05] uh subjects kind of collide for you and [05:07] what made you decide to to focus in that [05:09] area? [05:10] >> Well, when I got into open source, I I [05:12] had a teaching background. always [05:14] thought I would be a teacher for for my [05:17] life. And so when it came to [05:20] um getting a foothold in the open source [05:23] world, we started with training. We did [05:26] a lot of live training. Um [05:29] there was a time 2007 8 9 10 when the [05:34] the US government was getting into open [05:37] source in a big way. This was around the [05:39] time that um Barack Obama moved [05:44] the White House website over to Drupal, [05:47] which was a huge win for open source and [05:51] a lot of the um big government [05:54] departments were following along. So, we [05:57] spent a lot of time up in Washington [05:59] helping to move uh Department of [06:02] Defense, Department of Veterans Affairs, [06:05] um Department of Energy, uh all of those [06:08] departments over to open source by [06:10] training their staff. And the books were [06:12] kind of a a natural [06:15] um kind of side effect of that work that [06:19] we we'd ended up developing all these [06:20] training materials that were often [06:24] 60 70 pages long because we would do [06:26] week-long trainings and we're looking at [06:28] it like hey I've just written a book. um [06:33] we had these training guides that I mean [06:35] if you looked at the books now you'd say [06:38] oh that that's basically a training [06:40] guide that he's turned into a book very [06:42] step by step do this do that so it was [06:45] it was kind of a natural um the books [06:49] were a natural follow on of the work [06:51] that we were doing and we added videos [06:53] later um it was all from the same source [06:56] though [06:57] >> so so then you so you've published you [07:00] know print print materials which which [07:02] is great. And then of course you have [07:04] these these CMS [07:07] applications that that are for [07:08] publishing online. [07:11] Like what what got you into uh like for [07:14] say Publish Press uh to to try and like [07:17] kind of improve that experience for [07:19] WordPress? [07:20] >> Well, there's probably two parts to it. [07:22] One is that um training is not an easy [07:26] business. Um we were doing great. I [07:31] thought we had on our website, we had a [07:34] list of all these clients, some of the [07:35] names I mentioned, all the departments, [07:38] um, Department of Veterans Affairs, [07:40] Department of Transportation, you name [07:42] it. I looked at all the our list of [07:46] clients and said, "Hey, we've got, say, [07:48] 30 really high-profile, prestigious [07:52] clients." [07:53] >> Yeah. And then um the guy out of Texas, [07:57] the US Senator Ted Cruz [08:01] uh decided to shut down the government. [08:04] This was like 2013. [08:07] And suddenly I came to the realization [08:09] that I was an idiot. And we didn't have [08:12] 30 high-profile clients. We had one, [08:15] which was the US government. And all of [08:18] them had gone away overnight. [08:20] >> Yeah. When the government shuts down, [08:21] everybody shuts down. And what what [08:24] happened was they [08:26] they basically kicked all their training [08:28] contact contracts a year down the line. [08:30] They said, "Hey, we're not allowed to [08:32] spend any money. Come back and see us [08:34] next year." And then by the time a year [08:37] had gone by, uh like a lot of the we [08:41] worked with a lot of training labs who [08:43] would rent out uh computers and training [08:45] space. They'd gone out of business. So [08:48] our partners had gone. it it was time to [08:51] move on from that model. So we were [08:54] still doing some training and [08:58] I spoke with a few people who had gone [09:00] with Drupal and they were getting quite [09:03] frustrated with it. I mean I like [09:05] Drupal. It's been a very solid player in [09:08] the open source space for a couple of [09:11] decades now. Uh but some of our [09:13] customers were getting frustrated with [09:15] it and I'd ask them why did you go the [09:17] Drupal route rather than WordPress and [09:20] most of them would say things like they [09:22] needed the permissions systems they [09:25] needed the lockdown the control over [09:28] what was happening on the site and so we [09:30] kind of took that as a an indicator of [09:35] what was missing in WordPress and what [09:37] the gap we could fill. Um it it was a [09:40] bit more complicated than that. We we [09:42] tried several shots of the WordPress [09:44] market which failed as we were kind of [09:46] learning our way in that space. But that [09:48] was the primary insight that a lot of [09:50] these universities [09:53] um government agencies [09:56] um big corporations really wanted a [09:59] strong permissions and publishing [10:02] control [10:03] uh set of tools in WordPress. Yeah, that [10:05] that's something I mean I have had [10:07] clients go with uh publish press and [10:10] there are like certain you know we have [10:11] user roles and permissions already but [10:14] there are certain scenarios where you [10:16] know you may want somebody to come in [10:18] and just publish and work on one page [10:22] maybe that's their department or maybe [10:24] you just want them to be able to add [10:26] press releases and in WordPress you know [10:29] core there's really no easy way to do [10:30] that so that I could see that that [10:33] definitely takes [10:35] a useful space I guess I'd say in the [10:38] ecosystem because we don't have anything [10:40] like that in core right now [10:42] >> and Drupal does and quite often some of [10:45] these people make make comparisons with [10:48] what is out of the box. I mean, we've [10:51] had some agency people on our podcast [10:53] and they say that a lot of these [10:55] decisions are often made between [10:57] platforms by simply what's in core. And [11:01] so they'll say like Drupal has a [11:04] permission system in core. We'll go with [11:06] Drupal. [11:08] The example someone gave us on our [11:10] podcast a couple of weeks ago was [11:11] multilingual. they'd say, "We just need [11:14] even the most basic multilingual [11:17] features in the WordPress core, so we [11:19] can check that box and we're probably [11:21] going to win a lot more deals." So, [11:23] quite a few of these government agencies [11:25] had gone to Drupal simply because [11:28] you could control who was editing which [11:31] post type or who could edit an [11:34] individual post or page, for example. [11:36] >> Yeah. I mean, [11:36] >> nothing more complex than that. And it [11:40] just just from I mean you've written [11:42] books on on several of these these [11:44] systems including Jumla, Drupal. [11:49] How how does WordPress compare in your [11:52] mind like and and was there like you [11:55] have experience with these different [11:57] open source platforms? [11:59] What is it about WordPress that made you [12:02] want to you know dedicate your business [12:05] to to uh to these products to that [12:08] ecosystem? They [12:11] speaking they being [12:14] Matt maybe um [12:18] WordPress got the business [12:22] the product business side of things [12:25] right. Um, Drupal really didn't allow [12:29] you to sell modules in their case, their [12:32] version of plugins. Um, and Jumla just [12:36] didn't really have the the business [12:39] behind it to to drive the growth, to [12:43] drive the um just the all this all the [12:47] different structures you need to support [12:48] a big project. you need. Um, you think [12:52] of all the hours the automatic uh staff [12:56] have dedicated to WordPress over the [12:58] years. Jumla just didn't have that. So, [13:01] Jumla didn't have the business behind [13:02] it. Uh, Drupal didn't have the business [13:05] structure [13:07] allowing companies to sell modules, sell [13:11] plugins. [13:12] uh WordPress got it right in terms of [13:15] allowing a ecosystem of small businesses [13:18] to grow up around it. [13:20] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean if we were just [13:21] focusing on on core and only um you know [13:25] the ability to to uh provide free [13:28] modules, free plugins, I mean [13:31] I think you the contributions to [13:33] WordPress would be quite a bit smaller [13:35] and we wouldn't have I mean even the [13:37] premium plugins that we have now we take [13:39] for granted just like Yoast for example [13:42] um you know anybody can can install a [13:45] free SEO plugin that does a lot of good [13:48] things for you and upgrade you know, but [13:50] that doesn't exist without the the kind [13:53] of ecosystem that we've we've built [13:55] here. [13:57] you can see the same thing I think in [13:58] the SAS world that [14:01] um I'm not as familiar with it as I am [14:04] with the open source world but to my [14:07] understanding uh Shopify has [14:11] has one [14:14] in that in in that kind of space by [14:17] allowing a huge ecosystem to grow up [14:20] around it whereas Squarespace, Wix, [14:24] Weebly [14:25] Um, I don't think Web Flow does either. [14:29] They're much more locked down. I don't [14:31] think I've ever met anyone who is made a [14:34] good living by selling add-ons to Wix. [14:36] Um, but um, some businesses, some [14:40] projects get it right. Um, and WordPress [14:45] did and Shopify has done in recent years [14:47] too. [14:47] >> So, h how do you think WordPress is [14:51] doing right now in terms of publishing? [14:53] I know you know like obviously publish [14:54] press is all about workflow. Taxo press [14:56] does does a lot of that as well. [15:00] Where do you think its strengths lie [15:01] right now and where do you think maybe [15:03] it should be improved? [15:05] >> Oo are we talking publishing for [15:07] ordinary people publishing for [15:09] enterprises the [15:11] >> why I guess the ability to to create [15:14] your own workflow publishing workflow [15:17] on the higher end. [15:19] Well, there is none. Um, [15:22] uh, everything has to be all of that is [15:26] in the realm of of plugins, [15:30] which [15:32] is not a knock on WordPress, I guess, [15:34] cuz they have [15:37] the 80% philosophy and those workflow [15:42] tools are not for the 80% of people. Um, [15:47] even people with several staff members [15:51] all writing content can normally get [15:52] away with just using draft pending [15:56] review and published. [15:59] That's enough. [16:01] The workflow tools are really for the [16:05] the 10% the 20% to have much bigger [16:08] teams. [16:11] They say we work with we've done work [16:13] with uh pharmaceutical companies where [16:16] they're very much at the 1% end of the [16:18] spectrum where if they publish something [16:20] incorrect on their website [16:22] like uh some incorrect medical [16:25] information [16:26] they're in a world of hurt. They need to [16:29] get it right. But that's that's 0.1% [16:33] use stuff. So is WordPress doing very [16:37] well when it comes to publishing [16:39] workflows? [16:41] No, but I I think it's fine to leave [16:44] that for for plug-in territory. There's [16:47] no um there's no contact form in the [16:49] WordPress core, for example. Um no [16:52] e-commerce. Um all of that's plug-in [16:54] territory. Yeah. I think we get a little [16:57] greedy sometimes about what we want in [16:58] core, right? I mean, you see you see it [17:01] online all over and over again. Why [17:03] don't we do this? Why don't we have [17:04] that? And in a lot of times it's it's [17:09] really just a niche use, right? It's not [17:11] something that, as you said, everybody's [17:13] going to want. I mean, yeah, it would be [17:15] nice to have a a publishing workflow, [17:16] but I could also just grab a copy of [17:18] Publish Press and, you know, and and [17:21] refine it and of who can do what and, [17:24] you know, have different uh statuses and [17:27] and review systems in place. That that's [17:30] kind of the beauty of WordPress. You're [17:32] not stuck with one way to do things. [17:34] It's interesting to think about the fact [17:36] that most of the publishing ecos most of [17:39] the publishing ecosystem is on [17:41] WordPress. You look at uh newspapers, [17:45] magazines, uh we work with a lot of [17:47] really interesting nonprofit [17:49] newspapers that have kind of sprung up [17:51] in recent years. Almost everyone is on [17:54] WordPress. [17:56] But even then, even if you take the [17:58] entire [18:00] news ecosystem, [18:02] that's still only a very small [18:03] proportion of the people that actually [18:04] use WordPress, um you you take hundreds, [18:08] thousands of newspapers and magazines [18:11] across the United States and other [18:12] countries, that's still dwarfed by the [18:15] number of WooCommerce sites or [18:17] >> the number of people using WordPress for [18:20] their recipes or anything else. Um, [18:24] yeah, we we do publishing, but we're [18:26] very much in a niche inside the bigger [18:28] WordPress ecosystem. [18:30] >> Now, how how do you feel about the the [18:33] collaboration tools that are starting to [18:35] come? Is that is that something that you [18:37] want to focus your products on as well? [18:39] >> Oh, that that's interesting. [18:41] Are we talking about the real time kind [18:44] of Google Doc style? [18:46] >> Yeah, the the phase three Gutenberg, you [18:48] know, we just got the notes feature in [18:50] WordPress 6.9. that seems to be finally [18:53] uh getting some some movement and some [18:55] momentum. [18:57] >> Yeah. [18:58] So, I've been following this for oh, I [19:02] want to say six or seven years now. And [19:06] probably the fact I've been following it [19:08] that long gives an indicator of how [19:10] things are going. I'd say it's up there [19:13] with maybe the toughest, most difficult [19:16] technical challenge that's ever been [19:17] added to the WordPress core or even [19:20] hasn't been added yet, has been [19:21] considered for [19:24] um for [clears throat] addition to the [19:25] WordPress core. Getting a WordPress site [19:29] to act like Google Docs is absolutely [19:33] possible on high-end hosting. [19:36] >> Yeah. And particularly if you have um [19:39] some kind of man-in-the-middle server [19:44] which handles the connections between [19:47] the two people editing at the same time. [19:50] But getting that to work on low-end [19:53] hosting. Yeah. How do you how do you [19:55] make that happen? [19:56] >> We don't know. [19:58] Honestly [20:00] honestly I don't think anyone knows yet. [20:02] They're in the process still of trying [20:04] to figure that out. [20:06] Yeah, I I wonder if if almost it becomes [20:08] like a kind of a a dumbed down version [20:12] on on, you know, lower resource servers, [20:14] you know, that maybe it doesn't look as [20:16] fancy, maybe it's um, you know, not [20:20] quite as as functional and on, you know, [20:23] the enterprise hosting based on, you [20:25] know, the the available memory or [20:27] something, it can uh it can scale up. [20:30] But that that's kind of an interesting [20:32] uh [20:34] spot for them I would imagine right now [20:36] because how do you you know WordPress is [20:39] almost like Windows um you know when [20:42] you're talking about Windows anyone can [20:44] create something for Windows. It doesn't [20:46] have to go through uh an app store. It [20:48] doesn't have to go through quite the [20:50] vetting process that Apple has typically [20:52] used especially like with uh iPhones and [20:54] things like that. [20:56] So you have to, [20:59] you know, build something based on it [21:02] could be any number of hardware [21:03] combinations, any number of software [21:05] combinations. [21:07] How do you make something that [21:08] complicated just work? Cuz if you're on [21:10] Google Docs, you're just on Google's [21:12] server. You're not you're not it doesn't [21:15] matter what your hardware is. It doesn't [21:17] matter what, you know, you're you're [21:19] connecting with because they're handling [21:21] that for you. But on WordPress, you're [21:23] kind of at the mercy of the web host and [21:25] you're and all the other plugins you're [21:27] running and the theme you're running. [21:30] So there's a a number of possible [21:33] solutions to that. One is offer [21:38] some kind of limited experience. Maybe [21:40] maybe it just is disabled on low-end [21:44] servers that don't meet the requirements [21:47] or maybe there's some kind of extra [21:50] plug-in requirement. I mean some some [21:54] sector of the WordPress community might [21:56] not like it but one solution could be to [21:59] say require jetack [22:01] or require a a wordpress.com connector [22:05] and so that would be free to use but the [22:09] data would pass over WordPress.com [22:12] servers. A few other people that have [22:14] tried this have have hit on. I think uh [22:17] CK editor, which is a a kind of a [22:21] popular alternative to Tiny MCE. [22:25] They [22:27] they were trying to figure this same [22:28] problem out. I mean, it's not a [22:30] WordPress specific problem at all. It's [22:31] just a this is a very technically [22:33] difficult thing to do. and cked editor [22:36] ended up saying the only way we can do [22:39] this is by running all the data over [22:43] ckeditor.com [22:45] as a middleman. And so it could be that [22:47] WordPress ends up with a middleman. Um [22:50] but I don't envy the people working on [22:52] this. It's it's a tough challenge. It's [22:54] a heavy lift. [22:56] >> Yeah. I mean Gutenber in itself was was [22:59] a big change. um you know just from the [23:02] visual point, but now we're really [23:04] talking about the back end and some the [23:06] things that the rest of us don't see. Um [23:09] so that's going to be interesting. It's [23:11] taken a while to get just to this point [23:13] where we have notes. So um you know what [23:16] will WordPress 7.0 bring? What will 7.1 [23:19] bring? What you know will we get this in [23:23] the next two or three years? I'll be [23:24] interested to see. Um, meanwhile, you [23:28] know, h how how are your products kind [23:31] of keeping up with [23:34] the, you know, the the changes to [23:35] Gutenberg and maybe the addition of of [23:38] things like notes? Does that at all [23:41] factor into what you're doing? [23:43] >> Yes, it does definitely. I mean, we have [23:46] at least one of our plugins that is a [23:48] blocks focused plugin and it has we've [23:52] had to adapt it as Gutenber has changed. [23:55] For example, we have a uh a tabs block [23:59] in there and the WordPress core has just [24:02] added a tabs block. I mean, ours is [24:04] better, has more features. Uh like [24:08] as quite as is quite often the case, the [24:11] core has a simpler version. The the [24:13] plugins have a more advanced version. Um [24:16] but yeah, absolutely. We try and [24:17] piggyback on the new features. U for [24:20] example, the notes that have just come [24:21] out. I think we're soon going to add a [24:23] screen to our blocks plug-in that will [24:26] show all of the notes that are available [24:29] on a site because right now in the first [24:32] version of [24:34] the notes feature in WordPress, the [24:36] notes are just kind of restricted inside [24:38] each post. I think it would be helpful [24:41] if publishers had one single screen [24:44] where they could see all the notes on [24:47] their posts [24:49] or maybe all the notes on everyone's [24:52] posts so you could see all the [24:54] conversation happening. Um yeah, we we [24:57] do try our best to [25:00] uh to build on top of what the WordPress [25:03] core is doing and accentuate it. Um, for [25:07] example, there's not really a a [25:09] notification system for these notes yet. [25:13] I'm pretty sure that we will look into [25:15] building a system where people can get [25:17] an email or Slack update when one of [25:19] these notes is added. [25:22] >> That that would definitely be important. [25:23] I mean, I I could even see like an admin [25:25] column when you're looking through posts [25:27] and, you know, maybe that has the number [25:30] of notes attached to a particular item. [25:34] there's there's so much like because [25:35] right now yeah you're pretty much just [25:36] opening a post and oh there's a note [25:38] there you're not really aware of it [25:41] you're not I'm sure that's coming in [25:42] core at some point to some to some [25:44] degree but that's kind of how the things [25:47] have gone with WordPress right that the [25:48] core doesn't have something so everybody [25:51] goes out and builds their own version [25:52] and then when core brings that feature [25:55] in we're all kind of left wondering well [25:58] what do we do with the thing that we [26:00] just built like you said with your tabs [26:02] block it it's one of those things that, [26:04] you know, there were so many different [26:05] blocks like that that did didn't exist [26:08] and things that you couldn't do with the [26:09] block editor and now that you can do and [26:12] so it's kind of funny to to think about, [26:14] well, how do how do how does what we [26:16] build still fit into that picture. [26:19] >> Yeah, it's a difficult game. It's only [26:22] playing that game is only a small [26:23] portion of our business. Um I it's [26:27] difficult to build a business directly [26:29] on the block editor and trying to trying [26:32] to play the dance of what is the core [26:34] going to build. Um so we we've got about [26:38] a dozen plugins and we only play that [26:41] game with one of them. [26:43] >> But it is fun and it is useful to it is [26:46] fun and it is useful to fill the gaps. [26:49] Uh basically based on customer demand [26:51] most of the time most of our ideas [26:53] around improving the block editor come [26:55] from our customers who will say it would [26:58] be nice if [27:00] X Y Z happened. [27:02] >> Now have you uh have you guys used AI to [27:05] to help with development or or customer [27:07] service or anything like that because [27:09] it's we've got to talk about AI. It it's [27:12] constantly in in our minds. [27:15] >> Yeah. But we we had a discussion with [27:17] our team last week about AI and almost [27:21] all the AI that we use is outside of [27:26] WordPress. We we do use it for customer [27:28] support increasingly. [27:30] Uh we do use it for uh translating [27:35] our plugins. We've started to um to work [27:39] on making OpenAI generated translation [27:43] files for our plugins. So we can [27:46] translate it into uh Vietnamese or [27:50] Yoruba or um or or many more languages [27:54] than we have translators for. Um we do [27:58] use it increasingly for um some security [28:03] testing [28:05] although [28:06] the results have been iffy so far. It's [28:09] hallucinated quite a few um quite a few [28:12] uh security errors. We're working on [28:14] that. We have not yet [28:18] got to the point where we've really [28:20] started to deal with AI inside of [28:24] WordPress. [28:25] We haven't really come up with any [28:27] killer use cases of AI inside the [28:29] platform yet. [28:32] Yeah, that's that that's one where [28:34] everybody seems to want to jump on that [28:35] bandwagon, right? But there's only a few [28:37] different real use cases right now. It's [28:39] generating text, maybe generating an [28:41] image. Um [28:44] there's only so much you can do of that. [28:46] >> Yes. Um the best one we've come up with [28:49] so far is in our taxopress plug-in. We [28:54] have the ability to scan your content [28:57] and add the right tags or categories. [29:00] But really we were doing that with [29:02] machine learning before and so using AI [29:06] is not a huge a huge jump in that case. [29:09] Um, [29:11] there are some people building AI tools [29:15] to allow you to automatically generate [29:17] websites. You know, type in a prompt. [29:19] >> Oh, yeah. [29:20] >> Um, and it'll you type in, I want a [29:23] bakery website, it'll spin up a bakery [29:25] website for you. I've I've not tested or [29:29] seen the customer feedback enough to [29:31] know how good they are, but I think [29:33] yeah, next year we may start to see [29:36] breakthroughs and useful [29:40] AI tools inside of WordPress. But so [29:44] far, absolutely most of our use of AI is [29:48] in the development phase. Yeah, I I [29:50] think personally I think the future is [29:52] in um onboarding people because I I have [29:55] tested out GoDaddyy's uh tool for [29:58] WordPress [29:59] and it gives you a very nice basic block [30:03] theme to work with uh after a prompt. So [30:06] I it's kind of useful for that. And then [30:08] once you get that part of it done, you [30:11] can go in and edit colors and you know [30:13] you could tell it to edit colors or [30:15] fonts and things like that. Um, but I [30:17] also think just for the everyday user, I [30:20] I like the idea of going into WordPress [30:24] for the first time and having like an [30:26] actual tour of what you can do and maybe [30:29] AI is the way to to drive that. Um, I [30:32] spoke with Devin Walker who's the head [30:34] of Jetack now a few episodes back and he [30:37] was talking about the the the idea that [30:39] you could, you know, make Jetack simpler [30:42] for people by using AI to kind of guide [30:46] them to to um to different, you know, [30:49] end points of what they want to [30:51] accomplish. It seems like that's maybe [30:54] that's part we haven't tapped yet. Yeah, [30:56] there was a guy James the page who was [30:59] working on a an independent version of [31:02] this that was acquired by automatic and [31:04] I think he's on their AI team now. And [31:07] that was very much his idea was a [31:09] chatbot [31:11] uh in inside of WordPress like type in [31:15] um how do I change my front page [31:18] and it will uh come back with a chatbot [31:22] list of answers. Uh it will find your [31:24] settings. it will um [31:28] integrate with popular plugins like uh [31:30] can you you'd be able to type in [31:32] something like can I restore the most [31:33] recent backup and as soon as that was at [31:36] a a workable stage I think automatic [31:38] jumped in and acquired him pretty [31:40] quickly. [31:40] >> Yeah, I think there just seems to be a [31:42] lot of potential for that that part of [31:44] it. You know, we we wanted [31:46] WordPress isn't the easiest thing to use [31:48] if you've never used it before, if you [31:50] don't have experience with it. So [31:52] something like that that to guide people [31:53] and to kind of navigate you to where you [31:56] you want to go I I I think makes a lot [31:58] of sense. So what's next for you guys? [32:02] What what are you what are you looking [32:03] to uh any new products on the horizon? [32:06] Any new features we should be aware of? [32:10] >> Less products or less less brands at [32:13] least. Um [32:15] we we've been we've got 12 [32:20] we will soon have 12 plugins at Publish [32:22] Press and we have you mentioned another [32:25] couple of names uh Taxo Press Logivity I [32:28] I think next year we'll end up [32:31] collapsing [32:33] uh all of those under the publish press [32:35] brand. [32:36] >> Okay. Um [32:38] we've we've seen much faster growth [32:41] there than we have in smaller brands and [32:44] just becomes a headache to maintain so [32:48] many different brands. You you want to [32:50] say sponsor a word camp. Do you have a [32:53] banner with your main brand and then [32:56] your subbrands underneath? [32:58] Um [33:01] logistically it's become quite a bit of [33:03] a headache. So, uh I I think I think our [33:07] main goal next year will be to um to [33:11] double down on our strongest product [33:13] line which is Publish Press and any [33:16] smaller plugins will get moved and [33:18] subsumed into that [33:21] under that single brand. Yeah, I think [33:23] that makes sense. I mean, Publish Press [33:25] has a a reputation and is well known and [33:28] it's kind of like you're you're building [33:30] your own ecosystem within your product [33:32] line, right? I mean, you're not, [33:35] as you said, it's hard. You know, people [33:37] may not understand that Taxo Press is [33:40] the same folks that make Publish Press, [33:42] and why not, you know, combine [33:44] everything? I think that makes a lot of [33:46] sense. I wish you luck with that. [33:49] Well, thanks. We um there there was a [33:52] time [33:53] I I think we were very influenced by uh [33:56] by Pippen like uh from uh Pippen [33:59] Williamson the original developer of [34:01] >> Easy Digital Downloads and some other [34:03] key products in the WordPress space and [34:05] he had he'd set up his business lines [34:08] and uh he had easy digital downloads and [34:12] two or three others set up independently [34:16] and [34:17] it made sense cuz at some point like he [34:20] sold one of them. They were independent [34:22] and movable pieces. Um and there's some [34:26] value to that. [34:28] Um [34:30] but the the disadvantages have come to [34:32] outweigh the advantages for us now. So, [34:35] um, we'll we'll be moving most of our [34:40] smaller stuff all under the publish [34:42] press brand to make marketing easier, [34:45] content creation easier, um, and and try [34:49] and build a an ecosystem. I think [34:51] particularly we talked about AI a little [34:54] bit already. Um, particularly in the in [34:56] the days of vibe coding where we do [34:59] start to get people come in our support [35:01] desk and say, "Oh, I don't know why [35:04] you're charging for this. I could just [35:05] vibe code it." [35:08] Yeah, but could you vibe code a [35:10] successful comprehensive ecosystem of [35:14] plugins that work together to make it a [35:16] good experience? Now, [35:19] that's much more. [35:22] [laughter] [35:23] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean something that you're [35:25] going to to maintain as well, right? [35:28] >> I um I did leave leave out an [35:31] interesting use of AI that we have [35:33] started to lean on which is you have a [35:39] strong trustworthy [35:42] plugin that you maintain and [35:45] you get people coming to support and [35:48] they they want feature X, feature Y, [35:50] feature Z and it's niche. It's for the [35:55] the 10%, the 1%, most people aren't [35:58] going to want it. We do use quite a bit [36:00] of AI to vibe code [36:06] little short uh snippets to provide that [36:08] feature to customers. So, they get the [36:11] benefit of a core plug-in that is going [36:13] to be maintained. [36:16] It's going to get security updates. Um, [36:19] they're not responsible for any of that, [36:21] but they also get a custom rhythm [36:22] feature for them. [36:24] >> Yeah, that's that's uh that's a great [36:26] idea. [36:27] >> Yeah, no one's complained so far. It's [36:29] um it's been Yeah, it's been a very nice [36:32] use of AI for us. [36:33] >> Well, that's a wrap for this episode of [36:36] the WP Minute. Many thanks to Steve [36:38] Burge for being on today's show. Be sure [36:41] to check out the wpmin.com/subscribe [36:44] to receive our newsletter and support [36:46] the work we do at the WP Minute. Thanks. [36:49] And we'll see you again next