Deep Week for DeepSeek  ## Metadata - Author: [[Daily Tech News Show]] - Full Title: Deep Week for DeepSeek - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/206264f4-a103-48c7-87a0-3a1ebc69d1e4 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Data Security Concerns with DeepSeek** - Consider data security when using AI models for work, especially those hosted in China. - DeepSeek has no known government ties, but data on Chinese servers is potentially accessible to authorities. Transcript: Tom Merritt Let's start with what you need to know with the big story. It's time for your end of week DeepSeek news roundup. Jen, it really has been an entirely DeepSeek week, hasn't it? Jenn Cutter It is everywhere all of the time. All right. Tom Merritt Well, let's start with Bloomberg. Bloomberg has sources that say the U.S. Government, including the FBI, is investigating whether DeepSeek bought NVIDIA chips from third parties in Singapore in order to circumvent U.S. Trade restrictions on selling powerful chips to Chinese companies. So here's the background on that. This isn't the entire thing. It's actually quite complex, but the parts that you need to know for this story. In 2022, the U.S. Government restricted NVIDIA from selling its Hopper chips, the H100 chips, to Chinese companies. So NVIDIA created a new version of the Hopper chip, the H800, to sell to Chinese companies. It was designed to be as powerful as it could be without violating the new restrictions. Well, in October 2023, the U.S. Decided to write new rules that made it restricted to sell the H-800s to Chinese companies. So NVIDIA went back to the drawing board again and created the H-20, which is what it now sells to Chinese companies. And, you know, a side note, the U.S. Has been considering rewriting those restrictions again to stop the sale of the H-20 to Chinese companies. I know, it's a lot. The important part is that in DeepSeq's paper about the V3 model that it released last month, so the paper was released last month, V3 model was released in December, it described using 2048 H800 chips to train it. Now, this has led a lot of people to jump to the conclusion that DeepSeq somehow obtained H800 chips despite restrictions. An excellent analysis of the entire DeepSeek issue is over on SemiAnalysis.com, and it's shed some light specifically on the export stuff here. DeepSeek was spun out in May 2023 from a company called Highflyer, which was using AI for financial trading products. And they realized they had created some really good tools. So they wanted to spin out a company to pursue that. Highflyer had been buying GPUs for a long time. They had 10,000 A100 GPUs in 2021 before any of these restrictions went into place. In addition, semi-analysis sees evidence that DeepSeek has access to around 50,000 hopper GPUs. Now, this has led a lot of people to jump to the conclusion that they're H100s, because they're hoppers. But technically, the H800 and even this new H20 are hopper GPUs. The H800 is almost identical to the H100, it just has lower network bandwidth. However, if you're a company like DeepSeq that's developed an efficient algorithm like the V3 algorithm or the R1 algorithm, you might be able to take advantage of the H800 just as much As you would if you had the H100. Semi-Analysis thinks that DeepSeek has access to 10,000 H800s. It also thinks that somehow they may have access to 10,000 H100s, and there are orders out for a lot of H20s. If they got H100s, there could be a question of how they did it legitimately, but it's not the only GPUs they have. So it's not like, well, if they didn't have the H100s, they wouldn't have been able to do this. And we don't know for sure if they have them or not. The fact that they were able to do what they did is not evidence that they have illegally obtained chips. It's kind of, you know, jury's out on that. There's also some debate about the pre-training cost. DeepSeek put $6 million as the training cost for V3. A very low number uh semi-analysis points out that that is just the cost of the final training run and deep seek didn't say any different in its paper but that's like you know saying uh It cost me five dollars to run my car when you're not talking about the purchase price or you know the the maintenance or any aftermarket stuff you're just talking about the gas you put In it when you count research and development and test runs semi-analysis estimates it probably cost around 500 million dollars to put together just v3 we're not even talking about The new r1 that came out last week all right that's the chip story here's a few others in the roundup Semi-Analysis also notes that Google's Gemini Flash 2.0 thinking model, which was Released last month, is even cheaper to run than DeepSeq's R1 and has a longer context length. It beats R1 on three benchmarks that Google released. Now that's cherry picking, I know, but they're valid benchmarks, so it's at least competitive. And Semi Analysis wrote, we think Google's model is robust, standing up to R1 in many ways while receiving none of the hype. They even threw a little shade on Google's marketing efforts for the reason that there isn't more hype around the Flash 2.0 thinking model. And by the way, the news today is that Google has made Gemini 2.0 Flash available to all users in the Gemini app. It also updated its flagship model from Gemini 1.5 Pro to Gemini 2.0 Pro Experimental. That is available for all Gemini Advanced users. All right, a couple other things that are related to all of this that are worth knowing. HuggingFace has released something they're calling OpenR1. It's a fully open source reproduction of DeepSeek R1, which by the way, has a lot of open source elements itself. And the goal Hugging Face wants to achieve is to reproduce the parts of DeepSeek's model that weren't detailed openly. So specifically, how did they collect the data? How did they train the model? And what scaling laws did they use? So if you're interested in that, you can go follow that over at Hugging Face. And if you just want to use OpenAI's version of all of this, the O1 reasoning model instead of DeepSeek, because you're like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to give my data to DeepSeek or not. But you don't want to pay the $200 a month for OpenAI Pro. Well, just be a co-pilot user, apparently. Microsoft said it will give all Copilot users free access to Think Deeper, which uses OpenAI's O1 reasoning models. Windows users can access it in the Copilot app or go to copilot.microsoft because it's just a progressive web app. Just remember to toggle on the Think Deeper switch. And of course, your computer has to be able to support copilot for that to work but otherwise you can do it for free jen i know there's like so much even today at the end of this week uh are Jenn Cutter You gonna play around with any of this stuff uh it's just so much to take in uh i can't even think of what i would ask each one of these things to like i know people are playing with like the History side of things and trying to get it to say things that maybe they're not supposed to say. But there's only so much work I need to do in a day and I can't imagine needing every single one of these models. Tom Merritt Yeah. If you if you find it's really good at something ([Time 0:02:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7e8da66f-babd-49da-921e-e366cf444682)) - **CES Platform Strategy** - CES maintains its relevance by adapting to emerging tech trends and providing a platform for diverse voices. - The CTA invites opposing viewpoints to discussions, fostering a culture of open dialogue. Transcript: Tom Merritt I'm talking with Gary Shapiro, CEO of the Consumer Technology Association. Thanks for talking with me today. Gary Shapiro Well, thanks for having me on this great podcast. Tom Merritt Oh, thank you. So CES just wrapped up. I know it's the jewel of the year for the CTA, if you will. Gary Shapiro How early do you start for next year are you already working on on 2026 totally in fact i i could tell you the dates of our show going through the late 2030s if you want the show but we because We use almost every major facility in las vegas we have to plan literally years ahead of time as do as lot of groups. Actually for the 2025 or show in 2023, where we're drawing the floor plan, we talked to the biggest companies and see what they want. The ones with the most seniority that get to choose first, and then we designed a floor plan. And then during the four days of the show, believe it or not, companies are choosing their space for the next year. So the 2025 CES, during it, we've already sold a lot of the space for the 26 CES. And companies are pretty excited about their experience. They're in the moment. It saves us, honestly, several months of playing domino effect. And it's something that most of the major trade shows have actually followed that format. Tom Merritt You know, that's a good point. In a world where companies tend to do a lot of their own events these days, CES has stood out, I think, as being a place where companies are still coming and treating it like a place to have A big platform. And video is a great example this year. What is the secret to keeping companies interested in coming back? Gary Shapiro Well, we've been very lucky, to be honest with you. I don't credit my brilliance to anything. It's a combination of luck, hard work, opportunity. We have certain things that we follow. We have a culture that values honesty and candor. We highly value and produce an actual independent audit of the attendance and the exhibits at CES to make sure when we give numbers to media like you, they're independently verified. We're one of the few US shows to do it. It's more common in Europe. We also want to, in a sense, the exhibitors and the industry own us. We're a nonprofit organization. And as such, we feel we have an obligation. And there's a culture there also focusing that the big companies are obviously part of what we do, but so are the small companies. And you can see our leadership is balanced. Our chairman this year is from Amazon. But our last two chair people were from really relatively small organizations. The women that Dina Gazarian had a three person organization. We have a culture of favoring small companies and the big companies respect that. That's why we have Eureka Park at CES. And it's a culture. And we also try to focus on new. We view ourselves as a platform. The platform is designed to present all sorts of new things to our attendees and also different sides of an issue. We clearly take positions in Washington and around the world and in state legislatures. We have a very clear point of view, but we invite our opponents to speak as well because we feel we substantively will beat them. And we've been very fortunate, especially in the United States, of doing that. And our innovation culture in the U.S. Has stemmed in large part from our ability to present a substantive case favoring innovation. Tom Merritt I know a lot of folks in our audience do have small startups. They have small businesses. If they want to get involved with the CTA, what resources are available for them and how do they get involved in the Consumer Electronics Show itself? Sure. Gary Shapiro For CES, it's really easy. You just say you're interested, go to our website, ces.tech, and we have a special place for startups called Eureka park. And it's actually a subsidized area of the show. You just could show up with your product or your idea and a few talking points. And, you know, we supply everything else from the booth to the chair, to the table. And it's, it's a few thousand dollars. And it's, it's the way a lot, some of our most active volunteers have started and become much bigger companies. We also, we have at the Consumer Technology Association, which owns CES, we have a special portion of the organization for smaller companies for entrepreneurs and innovators, and They love it. They get together. They not only get deep friendships when they get involved, but they have access to all sorts of materials from a tremendous amount of market research that we do, where we ask consumers Questions about what they like and what they want, to having an influence in public policy. We've had many of our small business members come and testify before Congress or government agencies because we have very clear aligned positions. And that has allowed companies to get involved. One of the big ones that we're pretty happy that there's a change now is we want big companies to be allowed to buy small companies because most small companies are financed and get investment Because people expect an exit of some type and big companies buying those small companies is something that's our small companies are real passionate that they have that ability. Many of them have sold their companies and started numerous startups and they just keep going that way because they love doing startups. Others just stick with the company and become part of a bigger company of course you know a few go public like nvidia certainly did um and did very well that's probably the best example Of a company that was very small when when they first i met jensen when he first came to washington dc his very first time he spoke to our staff i wish i paid more attention what he was saying Tom Merritt Actually it's hard when you got that many people yeah uh you know you talked about the fact that ces is a platform uh the cta tries to provide a platform for the new for the new technologies Ai was obviously a big star of the show this year what do you see as some of the faster rising technologies and things that we can look forward to at future CESs? Gary Shapiro Well, artificial intelligence is obviously going to dominate for a while. With the return of the Obama-Trump focus on self-driving cars, vehicles, and a focus on cutting health care costs and empowering the disabled and the elderly, we expect a return to A focus has been absent for four years. We kind of marched in pace and self-driving and all the money was thrown at electric vehicles. And now the new secretary, well, who soon be the new secretary of transportation should be approved by the time, by the Senate, by the time this goes live, is very much a proponent of self-driving Cars. So we expect a major change there. We also expect a lot focusing on robotics. That's clearly a growing area, especially as they become more humanoid looking and lifelike. I mean, there's so many variations on a theme. That is the future we expect, as well as obviously automation in terms of businesses, restaurants, things like that, because it's also a business-to event in very large measure. And also, as we announced, there's two focuses at this CES, which we're just beginning on. One was quantum computing. We had a conference on that. We just announced that we're invested in the World Congress on quantum. And it's something that we're now part of and we're joined with them. And that's the future and the long-term future. The other is ([Time 0:21:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/38eec42f-8886-478f-a33c-3ce1b716d7c2)) - **TikTok vs. WeChat Ban** - TikTok's ban is likely due to its widespread popularity and competitive threat to US companies. - WeChat, while popular among the Chinese diaspora, hasn't faced the same scrutiny due to lower data volume and market impact. Transcript: Jenn Cutter Do you want to hear us talk about on the show? One way to let us know is in our subreddit. Submit stories and vote on them at reddit.com/r slash daily tech news show. This cold and flu season, Instacart is here to help deliver all of your sick day essentials. Whether you're in prevention mode and need vitamins, hand sanitizer, and that lemon tea your Nana swears by, or you're in healing mode and need medicine, soup, and a lot more tissues, Simply download the Instacart app and get sick day supplies that reinvigorate or relieve, delivered in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus, Enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Excludes restaurant orders, service fees, and terms apply. Valentine's Day is coming up. And for me, there's only one place I trust. 1-800 This year, 1-800 wants to make sure you're a Valentine's hero with an exclusive offer. Double the roses for free. When you buy one dozen, they'll be free. They'll double your bouquet to two dozen roses. It's the perfect way to say I love you without breaking the bank. Trust me, 1-800 always delivers. To claim your double the roses offer, go to 1-800 slash ACAST. That's 1-800 slash A-Cast. Tom Merritt We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom. Today, we got two for you. Andrew and RW helping us understand stuff. First of all, RW in response to Vodafone's rural test of satellite video phone calls in Wales. RW said, Jason and Shannon, professional, compelling, and fun. Great new team. But to be fair, mobile coverage in Wales has always been pretty rubbish. I'm in Ponteppridd in the South Wales Valley, big Jim, top man. So yeah, if you start making some video calls over satellites, RW, please let us know. And we also got a question from Andrew who said, I'd be interested to hear you discuss this at the end of the show, the TikTok ban. I don't want to cover old ground here, but my question is, doesn't such a policy apply to wechat surely that would have far more personal info about people via chats rather than tick tock Wechat has been around for 15 or so years and no one seems to care thoughts uh jedi what do you think why why the selective picking on TikTok versus other Chinese apps like WeChat? Jenn Cutter Because one has mainstream name recognition. Bingo. Tom Merritt Got it in one, I think. Yeah, that's where I'm at too. Yeah, it's the popularity of it. WeChat is very popular amongst the Chinese diaspora. So people who are visiting the United States will use WeChat. People who are communicating with their family members back in China will use WeChat. But you're not sending as much data as TikTok is. And also, WeChat doesn't really threaten any U.S. Company's market share, does it? Jenn Cutter Like one of the first Chinese companies, well, I should say Chinese app styles that I thought would come under regulatory scrutiny was actually going to be a lot of the early photo apps. Like before phones had it built in to like take out the red in your face and stuff, people were downloading these random Chinese apps that only worked online that set your face to servers And stuff. And like, that's never really gotten mainstream coverage. Yeah. Tom Merritt And built up large databases for visual recognition training, I'm sure, you know, like what else would they do? Maybe more nefarious stuff, maybe not. But just that I think is something top of mind. The other side of this is that the Foreign Adversary Act that is targeting TikTok by name in the act, which is sort of unusual, does allow for the president to identify other apps. There are some criteria it has to meet, but they're kind of fuzzy. So you could sort of gin up an argument for any app you didn't like, as long as it was in China, North Korea, Iran, or Russia. So any Chinese-based app, you could probably make a case for and put it out there. And then Congress has to look at it. But I don't think Congress has to approve it, if I remember the law right. So this could happen to more apps in the future. However, Andrew, to your point, it looks like everybody's scrambling to figure out how to make it not apply to TikTok. So I don't know if they'll be executing this act again or not, given sort of the blowback to it almost being enforced this time. And just a reminder, everybody, that law is still in effect. The reason you can't get TikTok from an app store in the United States is because the law says you can't. TikTok is operating only for people who already have the app. There's some questions on whether providing the internet services that allow it to continue to operate is in violation of the law. But all the executive order did was said, we won't enforce the law. We won't go after you for 75 days while we figure something out. If everything gets settled, I doubt anybody's going to take them to court, but theoretically they could. They could go after Oracle and try to prove that they violated this law, even if everything's settled and TikTok counts as divested eventually. ([Time 0:30:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/653d25e6-c907-4114-8846-801f8c65b842))