DevRel Hiring Is Broken  ## Metadata - Author: [[Community Pulse]] - Full Title: DevRel Hiring Is Broken - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/8a8ad602-7a33-45d7-90ae-f06bfaf4f7c8 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Broken DevRel Hiring** - DevRel hiring is broken due to keyword-based filtering, evolving DevRel definitions, and a high demand. - Many qualified candidates are overlooked while inexperienced people flood the applicant pool. Transcript: PJ Hagerty And I'll kick us off with the first question. What do you think is broken with DevRel hiring? And we'll start with you, PJ. Speaker 2 I almost want to answer not flippantly, but seriously, what isn't broken with DevRel hiring? I feel like that's a shorter list. I think that there's a few things that are wrong. One of the things that I think is a general tech issue is that the filtering and distilling of appropriate people and resumes is based on keyword searches and some SEO and maybe some AI Magic in the background. That's causing people that are completely valid candidates to get booted out of situations. I think that the evolution of DevRel and what that means is becoming a huge factor because I think a lot of people are thinking that it means I get an extra marketer or I get someone who does Pre-sales or I mean like we're still fighting this constant battle of defining DevRel. I know we talked a little bit on the last episode about DevRel maturity. We were talking about the DevRel foundation that's being done by the Linux Foundation folks. But it's still like, you know, I think that a vast majority of our jobs revolve around explaining what we do. And then you just kind of add to that the glut of people who want to be in DevRel versus the hyper minority of people who are actually experienced in the job. But because there's so many people, there's a big signal to noise ratio issue. There's a lot of noise, a lot of people who want to do this, but the actual signal that people who are qualified, the people who are experienced, people who can do it is a very limited number Of people. And I think all of those things contribute to the currently horrible, frankly, horrible situation in hiring Endeavor. And I know that, Wes, you're going through it right now. I think a lot of our listeners know I just finished going through it a few months ago. And it was like a seven month slog of, of absolutely nightmares hiring practice. So yeah, that's my take. Those are the three main factors. I think there's some other minor things going on that we could talk about, but to start us off, I think those are the three main things that are, that are causing a lot of the problems. ([Time 0:00:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/24b047f9-3ed7-4477-92a0-4ddfe2e534df)) - **Compensation Mismatch** - The mismatch between DevRel job expectations and compensation is a significant issue. - Companies often seek senior-level experience but offer entry-level pay, especially startups. Transcript: Jason Hand Got to unmute myself. What I got was that I agree with all of that. And as somebody who was laid off a little over a year ago, spent a good amount of time and energy into the whole process of submitting resumes and going through rounds and rounds of interviews And also doing that while injured, it was not, not a great experience. So I empathize with everybody who's, who's been through the layoff like a situation. Cause it is, it's traumatic. It's not been good. And to find then for myself, a place that has been a good landing and a good, opportunity for me has, I think, I've seen the full arc basically for like, you know, being super in a low place And then suddenly feeling like, you know, you've returned to what you did previously and landed on your feet. So it's a scary thing in general. And right now from a lot of the folks that I'm close to, Wesley being one, PJ being one, there's several others in the industry, in the community community that I am real close friends With that have also recently been laid off. I feel like a broken record reaching out to everybody and like offering support and saying, you know, I'm going to forward everything I get to you. Because one of the things that I guess for me to point out as, as what's broken or things that I think are broken is I know a lot of people who are looking, but I also know of a lot of roles that Are open. And so there's, that's what I think is like, to me, if you could just put a finger on like, what's broken is we can't fill the roles. And, and I mean, some of them are there, some of them have changed. Some of them, like, I think PJ really pointed out a really big problem is there's a mismatch on expectations of what somebody who is a DevRel professional does. And some of that has to do with just language, you know, across different industries and what we refer to as DevRel and DevExperience. You know, I've thought about this a lot. DevExperience at Datadog is quite a bit different than DevExperience at a lot of other companies. And so I have to like keep in mind that there's not often a one-to mapping on what people are talking about just within DevRel. So that's, that's a big problem right there. When you have a recruiter who only is going off of a script and going off of the details from resumes and job descriptions, they don't know the nuance and know that there's this language Thing. So that's problem number one. I also think that since COVID, a lot of us are just rewired or wired to really have a strong allergic reaction to coming back into the office. And that is a big problem, I think, in general, you know, for a lot of companies is the return to office situations and how that changes things for a lot of people at home that, you know, Became like 100%. Speaker 2 That's 100%. Jason Hand It was just a lot of family situations. They can't just change it, you know? And so that's a whole other episodes to talk about, you know, especially the folks and friends over at Amazon. Um, I also think in my experience that when I see some of the job postings that are out there, that they're, uh, the recruiter is really, and some of them get sent to me and some of them I just See unposted on sites where they're really looking for a unicorn. They're looking for like a superstar person. And it's usually like a startup, you know, with the general, like standard, like startup, rockstar language, things like that. But so they want somebody who's done a lot of stuff and can wear a lot of hats and has a successful like portfolio showing that they've done that in their, in their past. Um, but the compensation rarely is even close to matching what you're at, what you're asking for. You're, you're asking for somebody who's like, you know, senior or above, but you're paying for some, something that's a little bit more entry level. And so I see that a problem too, is like the, just a huge mismatch on expectations versus compensation. And then the last one I'll say is that I think that DevRel has evolved, has changed like everything. And some of the language has changed and there's new people in the community and all of that has just caused us everything to just change over time. And, and there's still a little pull and push and push and pull on like what I was talking about with language and what we refer to as certain things within DevRel. And I also think just the evolution of technology in general, you know, like DevOps has like a similar problem where it was very clear what all that was. And now it's a little squishy. And but you can point to some companies that are super successful at it. And then others where they're like laying off people. And I think it's, you know, stuff like that is so hard to put a pin on, put your finger on, because it's so complex, you know, and it has everything to do with also just economies of the world And upcoming elections and, you know, action, uh, act nation actors. And there's just on and on and on. There's just things that like play some kind of role in all of this. And it's like hard to put a finger on what, how to fix it, I guess. So that's what, that's what, like three or four things for me that I feel like try to explain what's broken. But one of the things I told Wesley and PJ before we got on here is like, I don't really know, like I have, like, I have the same experiences as a lot, as a lot of people and how bad it is, but You know, also some success stories in there. But I don't know if I have any like suggestions to like help fix it. Cause I feel like I'm in the mix trying to fix it, being part of some, you know, being a part of interviews and like the process of hiring and now not just being like an, you know, somebody On the sideline, who's just complaining about it. Like I'm actually part of the system now. So it makes me part of the problem, I guess. And I don't know if I have like a real clear solution. So that was my, my one fear of, I guess this subject today. ([Time 0:03:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/94611206-cfd3-402f-a5b4-46b05759d2fd)) - **Missing DevRel Category** - DevRel is not a standard category on job boards, making it harder for qualified candidates to be discovered. - This reliance on inaccurate keyword searches further complicates the hiring process. Transcript: PJ Hagerty First step is acknowledging that there's a problem. Maybe that's a subsequent problem. Jason Hand There is a problem. PJ Hagerty Initially, if people don't understand the landscape, then I think that's step number one. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think there's an expansionist too. This isn't just a dev rel problem. I think this is a tech in general problem because, know, Jason, you brought up a few things and I know Wesley, we haven't asked you like what you think the factors are, but, but just to dial In on something that Jason said, this is a tech wide problem, I think, where it's like, Hey, you know what we do when we interview people, we have an inexperienced HR person who is not technical Go through a system of pre-existing, you know, pre-existing documentation that says this is what we want. And it's kicked out, you know, maybe they chat GPT, put it up on LinkedIn, and they say they're nice to haves, but the HR person thinks that's must haves. So you've already lost yourself with one level of filter. Then we have 17 interviews. And then one of them is a technical interview where we make you write code. It's like, yeah, this is still a problem that tech has tech in general, dev rel specifically, but tech in general has not figured out how to hire people. No one has disrupted the hiring space. Looking at you startups, none of you have done it. You tried with like, you know, glass door and greenhouse and all of those, all those are just apps to do the same thing that Monster did in 1996. You're not doing anything new. Nothing's been disrupted. You just changed the name of your website. We have to change the way that things are done. And none of the three of us on this call, or probably anyone who's listening, have the power to do this on a large scale. But I think it's worthwhile talking about it because the more people talk about it, the more attention is brought to it. Sorry, that was my little rant. Wesley, what do you think is what's contributing to this issue? PJ Hagerty Well, one of the things that I think is part of it is I know you mentioned about the ATS, the applicant tracking systems that don't have the right keywords or something going through that. But also as a person who's just trying to use whatever these employment websites are, I'm not going to name any by specifics, but DevRel is not really a dropdown. You can do marketing, you can do sales, you can do all these different things. DevRel as a profession is not listed as even a way to be discovered or to label yourself. And so that means that you are more prone to being abused or skipped over by keywords because that is the primary way of how they find people rather than people who are doing the profession Already. So I think that's, that's one of the ways it's just not being able to identify yourself as a candidate for a specific industry or role. That's one big thing. So just being part of the talent pool, that's part of the issue. ([Time 0:09:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4254941a-9955-4372-b3ab-3b71fa302577)) - **Unclear Job Descriptions** - Many companies hiring for DevRel don't clearly articulate the problems they're trying to solve. - Candidates struggle to align themselves with vague job descriptions focused on desired traits, not problem-solving. Transcript: Speaker 2 No, I just agree with you. PJ Hagerty Yeah, the other is getting past these JDs, looking at them, because of this lack of understanding about DevRel, they really are looking for the unicorn candidate by putting a whole Bunch of things there. But what is also missing is the thing that they're trying to fix or solve or kind of why they need a person to be in that position. So they're really focused on getting the right person, at least how it's framed, rather of explaining the problem they're trying to solve. And so as a candidate, it's harder to self-identify your alignment with the job and a role in a way that's actually more accurate than they say, we need someone with this many years of Experience or just doing this industry and so on and so forth with her just like characteristics of a person rather than someone who can tackle an issue. Because let's say I've done DevRel for a lot of database companies. Does that mean that I couldn't do DevRel for an analytics company? I think that they're listing the things that they're needing rather than listing the problems, which means that, yeah, I guess I don't check all the boxes, but I don't understand why That it's a box that needs to be checked related to what you need after getting through the phone screen or interview process. It's just understanding, and that gets to my last point, which is a big majority of DevRel is being hired by people who don't know DevRel. And I know we touched on this, but it's also a little bit more than that. So even when I've had interviews with directors of DevRel or VPs of DevRel or heads of DevRel or people who have done DevRel or are currently doing DevRel, it can be one myopic in terms Of they've only done DevRel at that company. And so that they kind of know what they know, and they're in that kind of comfort zone of how DevRel is done there, and they're looking to replicate that. Or number two, they may have more experience doing DevRel. But the rounds and rounds of interview that you're mentioning, PJ, sometimes it's like you talk to someone in marketing, you talk to someone in customer service, you talk to all these Other departments that need to get a buy-in for this role, where if it was in the other role, you wouldn't have to run the gauntlet of all these other departments. In some ways, good, but it amplifies the error or the problem where people are giving opinions based on their own experiences being someone in sales or being someone in marketing or Being someone in product. Not saying that they shouldn't have a hand in the interview process, but I don't know if they should have an equal voice because they think they think what they know. But being a practitioner is way different than being an armchair quarterback and saying, well, I think you should have passed, not run on that play, or you should have went for it on fourth Down. It's easy to make that call when you don't have the skin in the game and you don't know all of the context. And I think that's kind of the part of the problem with the interview loops. Speaker 2 I mean, it's funny because on both sides, as an interviewer and an interviewee, I've had situations where I've been interviewing someone like I have no idea why I'm interviewing you Right now. It has nothing to do with what I do. You will not work with my department. I think they just randomly wanted to throw an extra person on for culture fit, which is such a bullshit term. And then on the other side, I've had people that I'm interviewing for the job, and they've told me straight up, like, I don't know why I'm the person interviewing you. I'm not sure why I'm here, except for there's some sort of org chart somewhere that draws a line between me and what you might be doing. And it's not unusual. I think that people are a little more forthcoming about that. But I think that also going back to one of your earlier points, when you mentioned that a lot of times these job descriptions are saying we want x y and z and we're going to build it this way But they're not telling you the problem the one of the things i found tripped me up a lot of interviews i'd say okay so what problem are you trying to solve with dev rel what's not being met Right now with what you currently have why are you hiring for dev rel and people really don't like it when you ask them why they're doing the thing that would give you the job. I'm relatively sure I probably missed out on some opportunities, not just because of my smart mouth, but because I really need that question answered. What do you think DevRel is? What do you think a dev advocate does? What do you think I'm going to do in this role at this company? This isn't a, where do I see myself in five year situation? Like what is my day to day? What do you think it's supposed to be? Don't ask me. I already know what the job is. I've been doing this for 15 years. You got to tell me if you actually are trying to hire the right person. Jason Hand Yeah. I think it's a mixture. I don't know if it's an intentional bait and switch either. Like that's the thing I get a little confused on. Speaker 2 I shouldn't make it sound like it's some sort of nefarious activity. I don't think it is. People are just literally, they don't know what they're looking for. Jason Hand Yeah, I think it's probably a majority of that. I do think that there may be some times out there where people are just like, I've seen some other companies have success in DevRel and we want some of that. And they just like, that's all they know. Speaker 2 And I think with startups, sometimes it's a, it's a, the board or the investors come in and say, Hey, we've got things that you should do. Yeah. Things that you should do. And one of the things is hire a developer advocate. And I've seen that at companies that don't have a consumer or developer facing product. And it's like, why? Yeah. You don't need one. ([Time 0:11:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/97f9f293-d63d-4ee6-8e7b-a900ca614b5c)) - **Bait and Switch** - A TikTok story illustrated the bait-and-switch tactic some companies use, where the advertised job differs from reality. - This lack of transparency damages a candidate's online presence and perceived value. Transcript: Jason Hand Right. Yeah. I remember, maybe I was, I thought I was telling you about this, PJ, but maybe it was somebody else. I, you know, I'm on TikTok occasionally. And I came across this one story that I was like, oh, actually, that's a very similar, like, kind of metaphor for what's going on in DevRel and probably some other places too. But there was this story of this woman who found a job listing online, applied for it, did an online interview. Everything's great. It was for like a sales role, I think. And then eventually you had to go to like the on, you know, on site place to, for, for training. And then it wasn't until, and that was probably like the fourth interview or something before that happened. And it wasn't until she got there that she learned that this was like a, uh, the first thing you do is you go and work like a kiosk at the mall. And then from there, then you graduate and go to another place. And then you finally would get to like the actual job that she thought she was applying for in the first place. And so there's just this like bad behavior, I think maybe that hopefully doesn't apply to a lot of DevRel. But I know that, you know, in general, like people aren't always forthcoming in high turnover positions. I think maybe there's this conception that what I, what I fear the biggest thing for a lot of people in our community is that they don't realize that their own personality, like their Own online presence, like they're themselves, what makes them unique is like, is the value. And so if you damage that by saying you know in any way really then you've you've sort of diminished your own value um and a big part of that is being challenged i think with a lot of the just Mismatched understandings of what dev rel does right ([Time 0:17:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aa4786f8-527f-4009-b896-4268e1600815)) - **Not a Lifestyle Job** - Avoid applying for DevRel roles if you seek a lifestyle job with minimal technical expertise. - The role requires experience and a willingness to engage with technical aspects. Transcript: Speaker 2 And i think that we still have an issue with um people who, and I mentioned this a little bit, some people who really want to get into DevRel because they perceive it as this lifestyle party. I'm going to go travel the world. And like, it really, I mean, it wasn't that before COVID. And it really isn't like that now. Think a vast majority of the people that I saw that even like a good bulk of their work was conferences and speaking and doing speaking engagements. A lot of those people are not doing that so much anymore. And they're doing other kinds of content. They're doing videos, they're doing podcasts, they're doing, you know, whatever, webinars. Yuck, gross. I hate webinars. But sorry, that just seeps in sometimes. But like not the number of people that are still, you know, hardcore road dog in this, you know, being out doing 25 and 30 conferences a year, that number has diminished to a near to zero Number. There's just not that many people doing it anymore. So if you're coming into DevRel and you're thinking, I'm going to have this great life where I travel all the time and it's going to be easy and you have very little experience and very Little technical know-how, I'm going to ask you to do us all a favor for those of us who are looking for jobs and don't apply. Don't apply. This isn't a job for you. We're not influencers. We're not Instagram, TikTok stars. I mean, Jason is, but that's a different situation. But in all my cat, only watermelon, not me. Jason Hand Watermelon. Speaker 2 Like three people will get that mean and the rest of us will move on. But, but like, seriously, if you're looking to, if you're looking for a job where you can travel and, and not worry about, you know, the technical repercussions of the things that you Do and you, you know, you're not willing to talk about that, become a, uh, you know, join an airline or something. Don't get into DevRel. The flood of people that are not qualified to do this job, I think are another major factor of why we're not able to get hired when we have lots of experience. Because, I mean, I don't know about the two of you. I cost a lot of money. And it's not like an exorbitant amount of money. I don't get paid as much as middle management execs that do basically nothing all day. But it does cost a lot to hire me because I have years of experience. Those who are hiring should not cut corners and say, well, I'll hire someone who has very little technical experience and very little dev rel experience just so that I can pay them less Than $100,000 a year. This is, I think, another reason why we're not getting, we do kind of command a higher salary. And in the same way that I think with engineers, that's going away, I think we have to start working on what it is we're, what value we're bringing to the situation that makes us earn that, That pay, that high level of pay. Sorry. I just ([Time 0:19:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9169984f-4654-4219-8c51-89fbdf69b328)) - **Educate Recruiters** - Recruiters should be educated about DevRel's nuances to avoid mismatches. - Focus on the value of individual experience and online presence, not just keywords. Transcript: Jason Hand Went off. Yeah, no, I have something to come. I'd like to come back to that too. Cause I feel like we don't, we don't really focus on hiring junior people, junior level people as much or, and we don't really have like a method of bringing people up from like, let's Say new recruits out of college internships, stuff like that. Like Endeavor, maybe you see it here and there, but generally speaking, it's not, it's not something you see, but anyway, so I'd love to come back to, because I do think that there's space For people who are more junior. But like you pointed out, there's lots of us who have been doing this for a long time. And so we take on a lot of the responsibilities and just there's a lot more things that we can accomplish, I guess, than a junior person. I want to go back to when Wesley was talking about, you know, during your process of looking for new jobs. And it's frustrating because a lot of the systems that are out there using keywords and there's probably AI involved to like do a lot of filtering and sorting and stuff like that. I'm just curious your thoughts around if, if there is some automation being put in place, or if there's just something that's, that's making it so that the keywords are so important, What prevents people from just putting in all the keywords to help them, you know, basically game the system and try to, and try to increase their odds? Or you think that that's like, that's what people are already doing. PJ Hagerty And that doesn't still doesn't like help i think because it's the eye of the beholder there when you're talking about dev rel it could be in any tool-based developer plus whatever company And so that's what an infinite amount of keywords that it could be um is for instance social media need to be a keyword there for someone who's looking for someone to post on social but Also let's say i wanted to work on technical documentation does that need to be there too since devrel is also very vast and very distributed in that way you could overload it with keywords But as a person who also is as a job seeker getting quality roles or getting filtered on the other end of being what roles you're qualified for it it also poisons that well as well so when You put all the stuff in into these systems did you start getting, Oh, DevRel, uh, like real estate. And how would you like to like, or like a social worker, right? Yeah. Like if you have social media, like, Ooh, maybe you want to do social work. There's, I've had that experience as well as where you put too much stuff in there and you, and it just makes it so like, it's so much that you it's, you have to do do all the filtering on that, That end as well. It's, it's, it's a cat and mouse game in which either way, the candidate loses. I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah. ([Time 0:22:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6ee91fc9-24fd-4168-97ca-78ad73339c4f)) - **Job Hopping Misconception** - Wesley's short job tenures, due to frequent layoffs in DevRel, have negatively impacted his hiring prospects. - Recruiters often misinterpret short tenures as a lack of commitment, not understanding industry volatility. Transcript: PJ Hagerty I also, just to kind of like dovetail on this, like fumbling the bag, as they say, I was going to point out the three ways while I'm not a good candidate and through this interview process, And probably a lot of people can identify with this. Going back to what is DevRel, I think that there is a misconception of, or the poisoning of the well, using that term again, of the DevRel influencer and people wanting someone to go viral, To like make tons of video content, have a huge social media following, I still see that listed on job description as what they want as a person. And I think that the DevRel influencer is something that feels short-lived. It was a thing, and then those people are still not as prominent as they were. Speaker 2 Yeah, it lasted less time in the Confederacy. Yeah. But that's still what people like to use. PJ Hagerty And that's still what people are looking for and thinking what DevRel is. And so I've seen that and I'm not one of those people. So I think that's part of the issue where I wash out. The other thing is the questions on how would you fix X or how would you approach this or what is how do you dev rel? And looking for definitive answers for these very vague questions is something that I struggle with because you might be an early startup where you don't have a name for yourself. So awareness is something that's important. Or you're in an industry where it's brand new and people don't really know that it exists or the terminology. And so you have to do a lot of education where you have to tell people that this is even a problem and educating them on this and why a solution to this will make their lives easier. Or it could be like a brand that's been around for years and everyone knows about, but maybe they have like 5,000 products and there's a new one. And so you have to make sure that you can stand out between your 4,099th product and have to say this 5,000 product is actually something that you should pay attention to. Or it's iterative and it's like a 2.0 or a 3.0. And why should you care? Is it incremental? There's a lot of problems within DevRel and there's a lot of companies and company positioning where not one approach works for everyone. It's extremely bespoke to understand not only what the problem set is, the company set is, but what resources do you have? Do you have an agency that you're working with? Is this internally? Do you have resources? Do you have a budget? Do you have a travel budget? There are so many other things that limits not only what you can do, but how you should do it and when you can do it. Like, do you have a big conference coming up? Do you have a big deployment coming up? Do you have a big announcement coming up? There are some things that you cannot move, but things need to be done before that or around that. All of that stuff comes into how you approach DevRel and how you solve some of these problems that really is like, are you putting in best practices so the low-hanging fruit can just, You can see immediate results? Or are you reinventing how they've done things and cleaning up like the sloppy dev rel they did before you got hired? There are several different ways. And having to answer those questions can be a real struggle. And like what you were saying, PJ, you're like, why are you hiring this? That can be something that kind of hurts. And the last one, I'm going to bring this up. And this could be more of a me thing than anything, but job hopping. My tenure for previous roles have been very short. And I don't think people understand the volatility that's around DevRel. And that's something that I think I struggle with as well as other people. Speaker 2 And to clarify, when you said that, and I said, yes, I wasn't saying yes, you, Wesley, I was saying, yes, yes, you, yes, me, yes, everybody who's been in DevRel for a while. Yes, absolutely. PJ Hagerty And it's because of some of this hiring process. They don't know what they want. They don't know how to do it. They don't resource it appropriately. They are disinvesting. Since they maybe don't even understand the value of DevRel, they don't see the value in DevRel. And so they cut a whole department. So a lot of those things are going into how people do DevRel. ([Time 0:28:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/29ffd951-e8db-42f4-abb0-f0dc8dda0676)) - **Job Hopping** - Job hopping in tech, including DevRel, might be due to the old advice to switch jobs every two years for better opportunities. - Short-term stays are often viewed negatively by recruiters. Transcript: Jason Hand Looking for a place, make sure it is crystal clear what, what it is that that job is expecting you to do. And, and, um, that it aligns with who you are just as a person, uh, you know, and, and somebody who has to own that, like, this is me, you know, like I have to be Jason hand for the future out There. And, you know, unlike PJ, I'm a little shy on putting things on the internet Um, but, um, yeah, I think, I think just making sure everybody's on the same page before you go into a job because, You know, job hopping, I think, you know, makes it sound like you are leaving on your own every two hours, every two years. There's lots and lots of reasons why people leave their jobs frequently, you know? And I think even for, for a long time, people were giving advice that if you're at a company longer than a couple of years, it's probably a good idea to start looking somewhere else. Cause you, you're not going to have an opportunity to like level up or get a promotion or anything like that, unless you take another job somewhere. And so there's this like competing incentives. Speaker 2 Even beyond that, it seems like, know when i when i was going through the the the job search process recently you know people always like go through your resume explain why you know so You were at this place why'd you leave i was laid off you're at this place why'd you leave i was laid off it's like almost every single one of my job descriptions i was laid off so how how am I to blame for job hopping? If I get laid off every one or two years, that's a little, I think that's a little, uh, it's a little ridiculous. Jason Hand Yeah. And I think that there's filters, uh, probably in the process somewhere that look for people who have shown short term stays at places because it maybe identifies some kind of bot, you Know, to them, to, to the outside observer, I think that's a bias to them. I think they're looking for a pattern of people who have shown a history of, of not being all in. They, they come in here and they do short term, they take their paycheck and they go somewhere else. And I think that's what people are afraid of. Um, but also like, there's lots of people who get filtered out because it looks like they did that. And that's not, that has nothing, you know, that has nothing to do with why they've only kept jobs for a couple of years. So it's comes down, I think probably really informed, really skilled recruiters, you know, maybe, maybe we need to like try to educate recruiters a little bit more on what DevRel is And the expectations there. Outside of that, I think, I don't know if PJ, you got something that you want to start wrapping it up with us, but I feel like we all agree that recruiting, hiring in DevRel is broken. I think we also just agree like in tech in general, it's broken. There's some unique things around DevRel that seem to be heavily showing some connection to just mismatch and understanding what the role is. ([Time 0:33:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e333b30d-3a10-4c90-a750-ab498160ac3e)) - **Share Experiences** - Share your DevRel hiring experiences to raise awareness and potentially improve the process. - Contact the podcast via email or social media. Transcript: Jason Hand I think in a lot of cases, which has been a, I think we've talked about in the past. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think it's cyclical. I think that as business either get a better understanding or maybe as more documentation comes up from this, you know, Linux foundation group, as people are more educated on what's Going on in DevRel and who's qualified and things like that, it should improve. I hope it improves. That's all I can do because otherwise, they can't carry on the way they've been going. I think it's at the front of a lot of people's minds. Those who are looking, those who aren't looking, but maybe soon, it seems like the level of certainty in this job area has definitely gone south, if it ever was there. So I'm glad we had a chance to talk about it and get to that. I always love when we get a chance to hang out and chat about these things. They become great episodes. I feel like this is a great episode. And I'd like to thank everybody for listening. Thank everybody for checking me out. Please share with us your research on what you're finding in your hiring situation. Send us emails. Hit us up on Twitter. Hit us up on Blue Sky. Email us if you want to. Info at communitypolice.io. We're happy to hear from you, and we'd be happy to read your messages to other folks. In that vein, kind of been listening to a lot of, you know, kind of angry music lately because there's an election coming up and that's what I do. But I was I thought it was kind of topical that I've been listening to a lot of Run the Jewels. So quote from Run the Jewels kind of close us off. And it goes like this business time. I'm mine i'd be mine in mine every time on my grind i'm trying to shine stay sunny. And with that, thank you very much for the privilege of your time and we'll see you next time on the Community pulse. You've been listening to The Community Pulse. Find out more at communitypulse.io, on Twitter at community underscore pulse, or anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. If ([Time 0:36:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f9f75493-7dd2-4842-9fcb-9bbd3267189f))