DevRel Hot Takes  ## Metadata - Author: [[Community Pulse]] - Full Title: DevRel Hot Takes - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/2ceac9d8-b785-48d8-b36f-1af0ad6da27c ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **DevRel Is Not Marketing** - Developer relations is distinct from marketing with separate goals focused on community and advocacy. - DevRel should work alongside marketing in a healthy collaboration, not be absorbed by it. Transcript: Speaker 1 Is not marketing Let me say it again dev rel is not marketing. We are not sure we are not presales We are not part of the marketing engine and the reason I say this is that the goal of a marketing, you know a marketing unit is to fill the top of the funnel To gain sales That's their goal our goal is to Bring a community around a product a tool of organization a company whatever it is and Point out like why it benefits the community We want To build the community and advocate for them on both sides to them for the company to the company for the the people That's what we do. We don't care if they actually buy anything and That's okay and And the next part of this is what what when I say highlighted but dev rel needs to work alongside marketing Yeah, it's a happy A happy it should be a happy marriage. Speaker 2 It should be it isn't always And a healthy environment it should isn't there like the there's a there's a like a What do you call improv take this it's marketing and right marketing? Speaker 1 So say I want you to say more about what you mean by sure I mean I think that it's you know, I think that I think this is probably one of those hot takes that in the Dev rel world and the community We probably kind of all agree on it is probably not such a hot take in our direct world But I think marketing sometimes would like to believe that they are indeed much more sort of directly Overseeing Anything that has to do with you know talking to customers talking to potential leads and seeing where they can get there sometimes not too grubby Grubby little cute hands On our precious people that we talked to I think oftentimes marketing needs to simply learn that The re this sort of community value that we provide gives our customers and our you know The folks that we're interacting with developers a Safe space where they're protected from you know What might be a lot of inundation and messaging that's on the marketing side and I I think that once they start to see the value of Especially with a developer audience What it means to provide that safe space and how it actually has such a long-term benefit for a growing Developer community They will be hands-off. It all depends on like when marketing evolves with the company Alongside Dev rel I feel like in a lot of like developer-facing companies where like developer first if we want to call It that Marketing comes a little later than Dev rel. I don't know what y'all think if that's true. I Think that's a different hot take but I think it depends on the organization there. Yeah, they're building what they're doing One thing I would say that I think Dev rel is super dependent on is something called product marketing or product marketing is actually Helping Build a full complete comms flow for a rollout Dev rel can focus on the good stuff, which is like demoing it getting in front of developers to get feedback things right and And the product Manager can create the like the flow that needs for something to go to ([Time 0:02:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bb7ece13-2a38-4d03-9e17-531559674de2)) - **DevRel Is Not A Noun** - The term "DevRel" as a noun flattens the diverse roles within developer relations. - DevRel includes varied facets like evangelism, community management, and documentation. Transcript: Speaker 2 This is just a whole life. This is a very get off my lawn kind of take as an old man With the changing language is that dev rel is not a noun. You don't need to hire a dev rel You can't say that I'm a dev rel. It's pretty girls. It's a is a department and to me it feels that Calling someone a dev rel is flattening all of dev rel Do you work on docs do you work on like are you an evangelist? Are you in community management? There's there's live streaming There's so many facets to developer relations calling someone a dev rel Doesn't really encompass all of the different duties and the nuance and the Beautiful beautiful spectrum of all the roles that need to be done by just flattening that out and I think it kind of came a little bit from the the devops community that decided to start Speaker 1 Calling people a dev up We need to hire a dev op It's also like what social media like do you have a Facebook? Speaker 2 Do you have a Twitter? Do you have an Instagram? Speaker 1 Have an Instagram account Facebook the Facebook when I first saw somebody Refer to a person as a dev rel I thought it was a slip up and then somebody ran with it as a joke, you know It's just Like oh, we're just gonna keep saying this really because it makes PJ and other people mad But I think there actually are people out there who who do refer to Individuals as a Crime which Is very confusing and I will say it irritates me. I wish it would stop so But let's let's change course and try to correct our language here grammar But you see it most often in places that are we're hiring our first dev rel Yeah, okay, So maybe so I feel like Which is a red flag red I'm gonna forgive you because maybe I need to come into your organization and train you up a little bit I'll be the first to tell you that that's Not enough You like me to hire an agency to help you back Step one English 101 I think that was more of a Spicy in the annoyance level Yeah, as opposed to like hot but not very annoying. Speaker 2 It's up there with pin number It's just like Nick car ATM machine I T. Speaker 1 Try tea. It's like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's a cara desert. Yeah table Mesa. Yeah One thing I will say is this is stupid. Maybe that's the Stupid language fat facts I Will say one thing that I and this is gonna be one of those things that's hard for us a year because we've been all doing this for a long time, But My I think HubSpot would agree with me that like DevRel still is fairly new to the company as a function I think we're only maybe like four or five years into actually having a full on Dev rel team or an actual dev rel team and We recently brought in a couple of execs that are like bringing dev rel to like a higher place that on that on the topic of maybe one of the other takes We might discuss and in doing so One of the execs has likened dev rel to product about 10 15 years ago When product wasn't the score of core function in most tech companies and now it's like You can't imagine a tech company without a product org And I think that most Folks, I mean like I don't product may not be the best analogy Because like product managers really are the Folks that comprise product a lot of the time and there are some new ones in there But maybe not as much as as dev rel, but I do think that like once Developer relations gets to like the parody Of of if it does I mean I kind of hope it does but if it gets to the parody of like a Recognition of necessity along the same lines as product then we might have more nuance in there Yeah, I feel Like you just reminded me of something recently when I started a data dog And I was meeting a lot of different people the first week I was in New York doing my onboarding and and I introduced Myself I said I'm into dev rel and I think you know probably part of it was just the way I said it but they didn't Catch what I said and then when when I had to clarify dev rel They were like what's That and I and I'm like, oh, okay, so it's it's really not a it's not clear what that term means I think we shortcut developer relations Just out of habit and really developer relations Is a lot more clear So about what it is we do and just the term dev rel I think is confusing to folks that that aren't around it and working with it all Yeah, I'm really good point Again English Is hard developer relations. What else sure is especially for you as changing of foreigner in another country Yes, we speak English in that country as well Languages too, but who said I think Jason you're up. Speaker 2 Yeah, Jason your next. Speaker 1 We got to get a spicy ranking Oh, yeah, I'm out sharing. Oh Spice ranking of that one um, I Think wait, what was that what that one was dev rel ([Time 0:09:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bd34c016-a224-4f09-9e38-7e4e56a3509a)) - **Community Events Often Lack Practitioners** - Jason Hand observed many community events featuring mostly developer advocates rather than technical practitioners. - He believes hands-on technical speakers deliver more value through practical problem-solving stories. Transcript: Speaker 1 Bit more spicy for your tongue here Now I'm gonna preface this as saying that I am a developer advocate I have been one for a number of years. I've built a career on it I've spent a lot of time traveling the world speaking at conferences and Organizing a lot of community events my take right now is that too many community events Are putting nothing but developer advocates on their program and on stage and I don't know what to make of that hot take it it worries me You know when I see a lot of events out there that Clearly they're trying to you know Do the right thing for the community, but they're bringing in I shouldn't say they're bringing in I think a lot of the folks that are submitting talks To these conferences are Mostly developer advocates because that's that's a big part of the roles to go around and give talks and speak and work with the community At you know where they Are meet them where they are But I also know myself This is in my feeling and I've heard it from lots of others that when they go to an event and they want to learn something that Hearing from The practitioners is is so much You know just bring so much more value because you you've heard them talk about the problems that they've run into and how they solve that And developer Advocates can can weave a great story, but they're not always hands-on keyboards building things So anyway, that's my take on that and I still don't even know how I feel about saying That out loud and coming out there on the airwaves But I'm about to add some spice to this take People hiring developer advocates who are not hands-on keyboards are not hiring developer Advocates or hiring PR people That's the truth of it We we went through the whole episodes and episodes and episodes ago Do you need to be technical to getting job in DevRel? No, you don't But at some point in time your technical knowledge comes into play that technical knowledge is PR marketing PR That's different hot tank. We're already piling one nothing another We do not need to we do not need to we do not need to Jenga this Who corrects this problem? Is this up to the community? Organizers of these events to try to encourage more practitioners and tell developer advocates that we love you But that's not what we want this time I would say that one of the functions Of developer advocacy within a company should be to Run a speaker program and skill up the folks internally to be able to and showcase opportunities to them I had to do that at Mailchimp Because I was the only person doing DevRel and For another hot take I'm not technical We are not as technical as y'all most likely. Okay fair play, but you are technical. You do stuff We've had discussions you do stuff that is highly I think that you the average person is highly technical Sure, you might not directly write code You might not directly to Your product, but you do stuff that is technical Okay in that case, I mean like that's a whole other a whole other slippery slope was like what is technical versus Yeah, well that that's For another episode Yeah But I think the issue too is is because of these part because of these people that don't have the hands-on keyboards Experience and you know some of them are being Trained up some of them are becoming practitioners But there's very much there's way too many of if it is a technical talk or the delivering technical information It's it's so high level So starter So very beginning of this is this is how you get started and I'm not excluding myself from this I do this all the time how to get started with the Spotify API finding Frank see My talk at dev dev space Like that's a talk I'm actually giving because that's talked that that that they want given but at the same time As a community organizer Hello world should not Be a top metrics another hot take boom. Yes. Okay. Yeah, just we are gonna jenga this We're gonna do it Overcomplate this a little ([Time 0:15:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0697b239-b4e4-45d4-8a2a-75f3b005880f)) - **Avoid Cutting Developer Relations** - Do not eliminate DevRel; it harms your brand, community trust, and customer retention. - Developer relations build non-transactional relationships essential for long-term success. Transcript: Speaker 1 Okay But every step you take away from the community is another six months to a year You're gonna have to work to build it back That's these it's just and you're gonna sit there and wonder What well. Why are we losing money? Why are we why can we not get investors? And that's the reason why the people who don't talk to the people that use your stuff aren't there Peach can you for the uninitiated? Can you draw a line for those? Listening how developer relations and the bottom line are connected in that way when you get rid of an entire Department sure or initiative around around working and with developers. So sure I mean like so let's assume We'll talk about a company. Oh, I was about to say company acts. We can't say that anymore shit Talk about company G Company G has a dev rel program. They have you know a dev rel Manager two dev advocates and two content writers They decide that they don't really want to deal with the ad if they they don't want the advocates going out In the community Where it's very costly Now they've worked for four or five years to build this community around this project that they have an open API that people can use to build it Well part of the reason why people are so interested in building it is advocates are continually going out and talking about it And talking about new features talking about how to do Cool stuff doing workshops doing talks bringing people into the community So that stops developer advocates also they led the two developer advocates go on the other side They're Also the ones who have been working in the forums and answering the questions and kind of triaging some of the support that comes in through Social media because that's what dev advocates Do they talk to the community They have non transactional relationships with people that are actually using your things So they leave well now there's nobody really answering those Questions well I hate to tell you like as original as your startup is as brilliant as your new concept was as first-to-market As you actually made it with your GTM plan Other people could Do the same thing you do you don't foster the community Those developers will go and find something else to do they'll find another product and find another place to be I mean to bring Back to bring it back to X. They shut down their API What happened and when they shut down their API? Mastodon got blasted into the stratosphere with people using it just to grab no there's blue sky There's a bunch of other things, but people are not going to sit around and wait to see If you're going to fix your shit They're not going to wait for you to figure out that you did something wrong and half the time they're not going to tell you The way I see it is that it has a Direct impact on your brand and your image which has a direct impact on your customer retention and future prospects and future like you know Customers I guess so and when when users Out there can't find a strong community and can't get their questions answered And there's just no support that's not official support They bounce they go other places and and and also It just it leaves a Tarnish on that company that you know company G just let go of everybody You know on a team whatever the name is that actually their sole purpose is to build relationships Strong Relationships out in the world. They just got rid of all that people notice that You know the custom potential customers are going to think twice about Going all in on your tool or your product or whatever if there isn't That out there if they can't find you know a handful of people that they can Build some sort of camaraderie ([Time 0:26:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8f63ce6d-31fd-492d-8d81-7c9396609502)) - **DevRel Misunderstanding Harms Integration** - Many companies misunderstand DevRel, causing inconsistent goals and undervaluing its broad responsibilities. - Full recognition of DevRel's role is essential for effective integration into product focus and organizational strategy. Transcript: Speaker 1 Is due to misunderstanding I say you're you're you're big highlighted hot take there is kind of about that Which one is that most companies don't really know what dev rel. Yeah, I was thinking the one the one that you The just that the the the naturals segue from this one is this one Because you know that's why companies are eliminating dev rel groups and I would say the same thing for community as well At companies that Are larger because we wear so many hats because they were so nuanced and to go back to that conversation we were having Around you know like the term dev rel being misunderstood within companies is already a sign that like Companies broadly just don't understand like Jason you just said that you're Introducing yourself as dev rel and people are like ha like It's a it's a challenge that we have and I think that like folks within dev rel would like to believe that we have a lot more sort Of like We're showcasing our value More easily than that or just as well as other teams are but I think it's an ongoing struggle and it really depends on the company you're working for And And the result of that is that dev rel gets tasked with a variety of different things and there's not always consistency from one company to another of What dev rel is sort of accountable For from a business perspective? Like we just went through the whole process of of getting our like high level goals in place for next year And I think we're finally in a place at HubSpot where folks are like yeah I get that Dev rel is representing all of our developers We're not just trying to hone in on one slice of developer. That's gonna be The be all and end all for next year's product focus like we are taking care of all developers that are touching HubSpot in any way For the long-term success of whatever Initiative product wants to roll out over time But that's new like prior to this year's planning. It has really felt like okay This year we got to focus on this particular type of developer so that they could do this particular type of product work which is completely missing the point Like that's a marketing goal almost right like and In the like the cost of that is alienating the rest of our developers. So I don't know like how many companies are like You know, I think everyone's at a different stage of all of this and navigating that is hard for us Yeah, not a very hot thing. I don't think I mean that's that's super Hot for us, but I feel like you know, it's it's like, you know, the the principal skitter meme like, you know Is it is it that I don't understand ([Time 0:32:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1db0781f-9b61-4d49-97ba-29f85cf717bc)) - **DevRel Bridges Marketing and Developers** - Traditional marketing largely fails with developers; they rely on targeted, relationship-driven engagement. - Developer relations serve as an essential bridge, complementing but not replacing marketing efforts. Transcript: Speaker 1 The software world within the tech world, which is mostly what we're all talking about It is difficult to market to software developers or to technical people in traditional ways They're Not paying attention to billboards. They don't watch commercials. They don't like cold calls They so a lot of that is just it's a different way of marketing You know woman use the word, but it's a different way of reaching I'm offended Jason And and I think Some of you know one of the hot takes the scha has is that marketing has maybe in some cases stole the term Advocacy because of jealousy or other reasons, but I don't know that it's jealousy. I think it's that they've seen success in these other companies that Sure, they've got traditional marketing But their secret weapon was developer relations or developer advocacy And so they want they think they need that they want that They're not wrong. They do need something like that because you're not going to reach those folks in traditional marketing channels You're just not they're turned off And and that's just a full stop on That. You're not going to get it get it done. So I think that's where developer relations plays a role in assisting marketing Not taking over marketing's responsibilities But I think that that's a that's a big part of why we see ([Time 0:36:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0c612a90-7e7c-44c5-b1d1-cdab75f947f5)) - **Engage with Workshop Week & Learning** - Join DataDog's Workshop Week for intensive virtual workshops benefiting charity. - Explore reliable machine learning using SRE principles through recommended technical reading. Transcript: Speaker 1 Um, why don't we have sj kick us off? Ah Okay, cool. Yeah, this one's going to be um Kind of a funny one for me. This is not I'm this is not actually my personal checkout But it's uh the checkout of a close personal friend who is very involved in the luck picking community And I just think it's fascinating Um, there are people all around the world that love lock picking and he is particularly involved in Um, a site called lpu belts calm Essentially you can get you like your equivalent of A karate belt for your skills in lock picking Um, and so it's just a way to like a fun thing to show off to the world and uh, there's a hole There's also a discord or reddit community and so We get to talk community shop a lot But about two wildly different things, um and it's fascinating. I just there's something for everyone out there y'all Luck, it's huge sj sold sold. Speaker 2 Yeah, sounds like merit badges. Just for luck. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly It's luck Gamification of the lock picking community. I'm all for it Yeah, like I don't know if y'all have ever picked a lock before but you start with a star to lock and the first time you pick that lock You're like, oh Power yeah, right it just Goes from there. It really unlocks something Oh god We did you want to come back permanently? We need Maybe we're just gonna bring our shade back for the after-pulse and the after-pulse can be nothing but hot punts dev rel hot Nice Take this up next Sure sure, um, so i've just got Two two of them coming up in september which is when this episode go live Data dog is going to be putting on this thing called workshop week, which is really an extension of our recent dash User conference Which was a huge success in person in san francisco Had tons of people there and one of the biggest Parts of that event that we've got the most feedback from was the workshops. They were Sold out they were at capacity waiting list And so we're going to be doing those virtually for an entire week. There is a small Feed to join that but all of it goes to charity And so i'll include a link to that, but you should go check that out. It's not just data dog stuff There's there's I mean, it's very heavy data dog. It uses our our learning platform But there's a lot of concepts in there that go well beyond just what you know data dog specific things So I think it's really cool. It was one of the first things I got involved with When I joined data dog, you know, I was very impressed and very proud of the team for what they've done So that's my first one. The second one is um, i'm going to be uh, speaking a couple places Later this year or doing a couple things that i'm preparing for one. I'm going to be doing a webinar with gcp on their vertex ai Uh talking about different things that we can do in terms of observability around large language models and ai in general Partnering Up with google for that. So that's going to be fun And then another one i'm doing is if you're going to be in vegas for reinvent Look me up. I want to be there too. And i'm going to be Chatting with i can't probably share too many details yet, but i'll be there also talking about some Large language models and machine learning things that some of Our customers have done Um, and in preparation for that i've been trying to consume as much information as i can and really feel prepared to go on stage and help people There's a really Great book out there called reliable machine learning applying s re Principles to machine learning and production. I'm about halfway through that. Uh, one of the authors is now murphy Who if you ever read any of the s re stuff from google he was a big contributor that and just sort of the s re conversations in general So really great book Very dense Pretty technical in some places, but if you are like me Diving headfirst into some of this large language model stuff and how do we build? Scalable reliable systems that use large language models. This seems to be one of the best books out that i've found And that's all i've got awesome awesome Wesley ([Time 0:42:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2fa74d40-bc69-476e-82d4-527b86de18ca)) - **iRobot Book Illuminates AI Risks** - Wesley Faulkner recommends reading the original iRobot stories to understand AI's complex risks beyond the movie portrayal. - The book highlights how technology parameters can fail to ensure safety, stressing the need for understanding tech implications. Transcript: Speaker 1 You're about to drop my favorite author so i'm super excited. Speaker 2 So i have another book as well Also about artificial intelligence, but in a different way. This is more on the sci-fi Uh and older variety Uh, it is iRobot Um, and if you're like me and you watch the will smith movie version Uh, you are probably disgusted, uh as much as i was Uh, And this is not at all like the movie It's totally different and it's a it's also a collection of scenarios of stories that i think are are fascinating Um, of course you hear about the three The three laws and Um, but this is talking about how they can go wrong and how they can be worked around and how It's very important to realize that if you don't fully understand technology You still need to understand how technology can go wrong And i really really enjoyed reading this book recently and i think it's a refresher And i think it's also even though it's very Old it's extremely timely So if you have not read iRobot, please do so if you have in the past I recommend picking it up again and reviewing it Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 What am i that's one of my favorite books of all time like i think it You know, especially working in technology like you kind of see Uh, just because you've set up parameters and you set Up borders and and bumpers to keep things safe That doesn't mean anything safe And and as a programmer like that's definitely something you learned at a very very very early stage Um, And you great vacuum cleaners too I wrote back. Yeah, also. Yes. Definitely great vacuum cleaners. Speaker 2 Some company just bought them didn't they? Speaker 1 I don't know which one Did did they give on out we could talk about that? They did So my checkouts, uh, first of all if you have it and you like video games and you haven't checked it out yet Baldur's gate three is unbelievably good Um, the music is good the visuals Are good. This story is good if you ever said, hmm I'm curious about playing Dungeons and Dragons, but ([Time 0:46:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/36262784-8588-424e-9fc5-10dcff275001))