Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz

Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz? 🔗 **Source:** [Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSWzRCDTPNU) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [bethel-repentance, charismatic-movement, church-accountability, remnant-radio] > author: Joshua Lewis (Remnant Radio) > source: YouTube > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSWzRCDTPNU] > date created: 2025-01-27 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz? >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate whether Chris Valotton's repentance included restitution — 12:45 #bethel #repentance - [H2] Assess Danny Silk's "Unpunishable" book against victim safety — 42:30 #accountability #restoration - [H3] Consider accountability frameworks for charismatic platforms — 35:15 #discernment #leadership ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Mike Winger's Original Video](https://youtube.com) - [Bethel Church](https://bethelredding.com) ## 📝 Summary - Bethel Church leadership publicly repented for their handling of Shawn Bolz allegations in 2019-2020 - Chris Valotton acknowledged sexual harassment and prophetic fraud allegations against Bolz - The church made public statements warning against Bolz and inviting victims to contact them - Remnant Radio hosts praised the repentance while noting concerns about complete restoration process - Broader questions raised about charismatic movement accountability and victim care ## 📖 Main Content Remnant Radio analyzed Bethel Church's public response to criticism over their handling of Shawn Bolz. The hosts, Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller, examined video statements from Chris Valotton, Bill Johnson, and Dan Fairley acknowledging failures in their 2019-2020 investigation and response to allegations against prophet Shawn Bolz. The allegations included sexual harassment of employees and "data mining" Facebook for prophetic words. Bethel leadership investigated privately, confronted Bolz who denied wrongdoing, then quietly removed him from platforms without public warning. This left many churches and individuals vulnerable to continued harm. Chris Valotton's repentance included self-disclosure of previously unknown details like blocking a victim seeking help. The hosts noted positive elements: clear terminology about sin, explanation versus justification, and acknowledgment of victim impact. However, they questioned whether full restitution was offered and highlighted ongoing concerns about Bethel's restoration philosophy versus victim safety. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Bethel's response - Key idea: Bethel made a complete reversal from previous defensive position - Evidence: "180 turnaround... complete flop on prior position" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=323) — [H2] Remnant Radio's charismatic perspective - Key idea: Self-identified charismatics critiquing from within movement - Evidence: "We are continuationist... practice gifts of prophecy and healing" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=525) — [H3] Prior concerns about Bethel platforms - Key idea: Pattern of platforming problematic figures like Kenneth Copeland - Evidence: "Claims to be God just like Jesus is God... no repentance" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=765) — [H1] Chris Valotton's repentance begins - Key idea: Visible emotional distress and changed posture from week prior - Evidence: "Heart change... encounter with the Lord... see things differently" #### ⏱️ [16:30](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=990) — [H2] 2019 investigation timeline revealed - Key idea: European leaders brought evidence of Facebook data mining - Evidence: "14 Facebook videos... sexual allegations... Danny got in trenches" #### ⏱️ [21:15](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=1275) — [H3] Four-hour confrontation with Bolz - Key idea: Direct confrontation attempt that failed to produce repentance - Evidence: "Flatly denied... ministry going to burn down if you don't confess" #### ⏱️ [25:45](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=1545) — [H1] Critical admission of responsibility failure - Key idea: Bethel failed to warn other platforms after removing Bolz - Evidence: "Other people believed in him because we believed in him" #### ⏱️ [30:20](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=1820) — [H2] Self-disclosure of blocking victim - Key idea: Previously unknown detail showing additional harm to victims - Evidence: "Victim reached out... my frustration... I just blocked him" #### ⏱️ [35:15](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2115) — [H3] Public apology to victims - Key idea: First time Valotton directly acknowledged and apologized to victims - Evidence: "Especially apologize to the victims... sexual culture and victimized ministry" #### ⏱️ [38:30](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2310) — [H1] Revelation 2 misinterpretation acknowledgment - Key idea: Admitted to emphasizing wrong part of biblical text - Evidence: "Emphasized 'I gave her time' instead of 'you tolerated the prophetess'" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2550) — [H2] New commitment to character over gifting - Key idea: Platform endorsement creates responsibility for character verification - Evidence: "Care as much about character as gift... when we put somebody on stage" #### ⏱️ [45:50](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2750) — [H3] Restoration versus protection balance - Key idea: Commitment to continue leader restoration without endangering flock - Evidence: "Remain place of restoration... not at expense of protecting the flock" #### ⏱️ [48:15](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2895) — [H1] Miller's concerns about "Unpunishable" book - Key idea: Danny Silk's restoration philosophy may prioritize leaders over victims - Evidence: "Victim was nowhere in view... was church safe for the victim?" ## 📚 References - [Bethel Church Redding](https://bethelredding.com) - [Mike Winger YouTube Channel](https://youtube.com/@MikeWinger) - [Remnant Radio Previous Bethel Coverage](https://youtube.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Bethel Church publicly acknowledged failures in handling Shawn Bolz allegations including sexual harassment and prophetic fraud - Chris Valotton demonstrated genuine repentance through self-disclosure and victim acknowledgment after previous defensive posture - Remnant Radio praised the repentance while noting missing restitution elements and broader concerns about victim safety in restoration practices ## 📰 Newsletter **Bethel's Public Repentance: Progress and Remaining Questions** Bethel Church made headlines this week with a comprehensive public repentance over their handling of Shawn Bolz allegations. Chris Valotton's emotional acknowledgment of failures shows how accountability pressure can produce genuine change in ministry leadership. **Key Learning:** Even established ministries can demonstrate authentic repentance when confronted with clear evidence of harm to victims. **Practical Application:** Churches should establish proactive accountability systems rather than waiting for public pressure to address leadership failures. This situation highlights the importance of victim-centered approaches in church discipline and the need for transparent communication when removing leaders from platforms. Resources: [Church Accountability Resources](https://example.com), [Victim Care Guidelines](https://example.com), [Leadership Discipline Frameworks](https://example.com) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content on accountability in tech communities - Education: Develop workshops on ethical platform management - Community management: Establish clear removal/warning protocols #### Community - Maintainers: Develop governance templates for addressing misconduct - Contributors: Create safe reporting mechanisms for community harm - Sponsors: Implement transparency requirements for funded leaders #### WordPress - Community: Update Code of Conduct enforcement procedures - Support: Develop victim care protocols for community incidents - Documentation: Create clear guidelines for platform accountability ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Genuine repentance in ministry contexts requires both acknowledgment and restitution to be complete - Public platform endorsement creates moral responsibility for ongoing character verification - Charismatic movements prioritizing leader restoration may systematically undervalue victim safety - Social media accountability pressure can catalyze authentic change in resistant institutions ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of repentance elements (acknowledgment, restitution, prevention) - Case study examination of Bethel's restoration philosophy through "Unpunishable" book - Content analysis of charismatic movement response patterns to abuse allegations ### ❓ Questions - What specific restitution measures should accompany public ministry repentance? - How can restoration-focused ministries better integrate victim safety protocols? - What early warning systems could prevent repeated platforming of problematic leaders? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of Bethel's actual policy changes following this repentance - Comparative analysis of accountability responses across charismatic networks - Victim impact assessment of public versus private ministry discipline approaches ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Ministry platforms must develop character verification beyond gifting assessment - Policy: Churches need written protocols for public warnings about removed leaders - Education: Seminary training should include victim-centered discipline approaches - Funding: Donors should require accountability transparency before supporting ministries ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video analysis with timestamp references - Improve: Timeline graphics showing 2019-2020 investigation sequence #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio discussion format available - Improve: Audio summary of key repentance elements #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of repentance, restitution, accountability terms - Improve: Glossary of charismatic movement terminology #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step analysis of repentance process - Improve: Checklist for evaluating genuine versus performative repentance #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Sequential timeline of events and responses - Improve: Decision tree for platform accountability protocols #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format with multiple perspectives - Improve: Discussion questions for church accountability conversations #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection prompts throughout analysis - Improve: Personal assessment tools for discernment development #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic development of accountability through community pressure - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about interconnected ministry networks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure and timestamp navigation - Improve: Alt text for any visual elements or charts #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls and text navigation - Improve: Skip links to major sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast meets guidelines - Improve: Larger text options for detailed analysis #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design accommodates zoom - Improve: Ensure timestamp links remain functional #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript of video discussion available - Improve: Closed captions for embedded video clips #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic navigation and links properly labeled - Improve: Accessible sharing and bookmark features ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of accountability across different ministry contexts - Improve: International perspectives on church discipline practices #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of sensitive topics - Improve: Content warnings for discussion of sexual harassment #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured analysis with clear sections - Improve: Summary boxes for key points #### Representation - Present: Multiple host perspectives and victim voices considered - Improve: Diverse examples of healthy accountability practices #### Psychological safety - Present: Balanced critique acknowledging positive changes - Improve: Resources for abuse survivors in ministry contexts ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear premises about repentance requirements lead to evaluation conclusions - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from multiple Bethel incidents supports broader concerns - Causal reasoning: Links between platform endorsement and responsibility well-established - Analogical strength: Comparison to David/Absalom situation provides biblical framework #### Fallacies - False dilemma: Avoided by acknowledging both progress and remaining concerns - Ad hominem: Hosts maintain focus on actions rather than character attacks #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Cautiously hopeful while maintaining critical discernment, balanced between encouragement and accountability ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Bethel initially denied responsibility ("not our problem") - Attack: Previous defensive sermon attacked critics as lacking understanding - Reverse victim/offender: Initially positioned themselves as victims of unfair criticism - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Current repentance appears genuine based on self-disclosure and specific acknowledgments ## 🎯 Conclusion Bethel's public repentance over Shawn Bolz represents significant progress in ministry accountability, demonstrating that sustained pressure can produce genuine change. Chris Valotton's acknowledgment of specific failures and victim harm marks a substantial shift from previous defensive postures. However, complete restoration requires attention to restitution and systematic changes to prevent similar failures. The charismatic movement's emphasis on leader restoration must be balanced with robust victim protection protocols. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Public repentance requires victim acknowledgment > [!quote] [Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSWzRCDTPNU) by [[Joshua Lewis]] via [[Remnant Radio]]. Published 2025-01-27. Accessed 2025-01-27. > "This is the first time I'm hearing him acknowledge that there are real victims and he's apologizing to them." Miller notes significant shift in Valotton's response to include victim focus. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2115#H1) #xref #repentance ID:rw_bethel001 ### [H2] Platform endorsement creates moral responsibility > [!quote] [Did Bethel Actually Repent Over Shawn Bolz?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSWzRCDTPNU) > "When we put somebody on stage, we are endorsing them and therefore have responsibility." Bethel acknowledges platform influence creates accountability obligation. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/NSWzRCDTPNU?t=2550#H2) #xref #accountability ID:rw_bethel002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Hey everybody, welcome back to the [00:02] wonderful world of remnant radio and [00:03] this program. Uh it looks like Bethl [00:05] church and ready has actually repented [00:07] of some of the statements surrounding [00:08] Shawn BS. Uh it's going to be an [00:11] interesting program. You guys stay [00:12] tuned. [00:16] So did Bethl Church in Reading actually [00:18] repent? That's what we're tackling today [00:20] in this video. Uh in our last week's [00:22] video, we reviewed a Bethl sermon where [00:24] Chris Valatin got up and kind of spoke [00:27] about the difficulties of pastoring a [00:29] church in the 21st century and it seemed [00:31] to be in direct uh response to Mike [00:34] Winger's video and he actually confirms [00:36] uh that it was in response to Mike [00:38] Winger's video. So today we're looking [00:40] at this next clip which seems to be 180 [00:43] turnaround. I mean it is a complete flop [00:45] on uh what seems to be a prior position [00:47] of like, hey, we're not going to [00:48] acknowledge this directly. uh and it [00:50] looks like they've uh tried to do some [00:52] ownership. So, we're going to kind of [00:53] review that video and kind of give you [00:55] some step by step how we think through [00:56] this process. If this is your first time [00:58] here to Remnant Radio, uh my name is [00:59] Joshua Lewis. Uh and together with my [01:01] co-hosts, Michael Miller and Michael [01:03] Roundtree, we engage with man uh lots of [01:06] teachers and pastors across the world [01:07] from different churches and [01:08] denominations. We ourselves are [01:10] continuationist, meaning that we believe [01:12] that the gifts of the spirit have [01:13] continued. We practice the gifts of [01:15] prophecy and and healing and tongues and [01:17] interpretation in our own local [01:18] churches. So, we're not a group of [01:19] heretic hunters looking to kind of bash [01:21] Bethl uh in reading. Uh we are in fact [01:23] charismatics and we want to police our [01:25] own movement from the inside. So, we [01:27] want to be able to call balls and [01:28] strikes as we do here on the channel. [01:30] So, if you're interested in keeping up [01:32] to date on content just like this and [01:34] how to discern and to be critical [01:37] thinkers when it comes to a space of uh [01:39] man's spiritual gifts, this is a great [01:41] channel for you to subscribe to. So, I [01:42] encourage you to do so. Uh now today I [01:44] am joined with my co-host Michael [01:46] Miller. Michael Roundtree who really [01:48] wants to be here for this video. [01:49] Unfortunately is traveling and is on a [01:52] plane or is trying to get on a plane [01:54] because of the weather and the snow [01:56] apocalypse that has come upon most of [01:57] the nation uh here in I guess January of [02:00] 26 depending on when you're watching [02:02] this video. Uh well without further ado, [02:04] I want to introduce you to my buddy [02:06] Michael Miller. How you doing over there [02:07] in Denver, Oklahoma? [02:09] >> I'm doing good man. Um, yeah, I don't [02:13] really have anything to complain about. [02:15] Life is good. You know, taught through [02:17] the rest of second Peter chapter 2 [02:19] yesterday. Um, yeah, everything's going [02:22] pretty go pretty well. I'm I'm excited. [02:24] Um, I I am thankful for for some of the [02:27] response, you know, that we got. Um, [02:30] there's a whole lot to comment on. I've [02:33] had a lot of thoughts that have been [02:34] kind of mulling in my head since I heard [02:36] it on Sunday. Um, which was yesterday [02:39] for me. you guys will be watching this [02:41] on Tuesday, but um yeah, a lot of [02:43] thoughts uh a lot of really good [02:46] thoughts and and I think for the first [02:47] time it gave me a lot of hope, not just [02:49] for Bethl, but all of those that Bethl [02:52] influences and that watched Bethl's [02:54] public repentance. Maybe this could set [02:57] an example for the charismatic movement [02:59] at large. Um yeah, I hope I hope I [03:03] really hope. Um there's there's a lot of [03:05] really good things and I want people who [03:07] are tuning in uh to know we we want to [03:10] be um discerning without having like a [03:13] critical spirit right where everything [03:14] looks bad. So I think this video first [03:17] and foremost I'm proud of the Beth [03:19] leadership team. I'm thankful that they [03:20] did what I think was actually necessary [03:22] maybe even mandatory uh for their office [03:25] as leaders of the church there in uh in [03:28] Reading. So I'm thankful for what [03:30] they've done. Um, I also just want to [03:32] kind of familiarize our audience with [03:34] some prior concerns, right? Um, they've [03:37] had a guy by the name of Kenneth [03:39] Copeland come out to their church who [03:40] has recently said, you know, I'm God [03:42] just like Jesus is God. And they got mad [03:44] at him for when he claimed to be God and [03:46] they get mad at me when I'm claiming to [03:48] be God. He he, you know, pretended to [03:49] cut his hand into the communion glass [03:51] talking about how his blood is the same [03:52] as Christ's blood. I mean, some pretty [03:54] egregious stuff, okay? And that that [03:56] didn't happen at Bethl, but here's a guy [03:57] who his track record is very public and [04:00] people know about this guy and he's come [04:02] and spoke at Bethl. We were like, yikes, [04:03] that's [04:04] >> no repentance from that guy when Bethl [04:07] to their church, [04:08] >> right? And I think we we'll probably get [04:10] into this because Bethl in this response [04:13] actually acknowledges, hey, we realize [04:15] that when we put somebody on a public [04:17] platform, we are endorsing them and [04:19] therefore have ability. Um, so their [04:22] response is going to have massive [04:24] ramifications for them. I don't know if [04:25] they realize. I hope they realize. I [04:27] want to give them, you know, I'm very [04:30] hopeful, but time time will tell. [04:32] >> Yeah. So, when I talk about different I [04:34] mean, Kenneth Copeland, that's up on my [04:35] list of things that I'm mega concerned [04:37] about. Uh, another thing would be the [04:38] Passion Translation. Over and over [04:40] again, Bethl Church has said, "Hey, this [04:42] is a a good and faithful translation of [04:44] the Bible. Come to find out, it's a [04:45] tarum at best. It is not a translation [04:48] of the scriptures. It is not a [04:50] translation of the Aramaic." Um, there's [04:52] a lot of stuff we've done on our channel [04:54] and Mike Winger has done on his channel [04:55] addressing the concerns about the pass, [04:58] the so-called passion translation as it [05:00] claims to be. Uh, it is not. uh the guy [05:02] who translated and claims that he has [05:04] all of this uh background in Aramaic and [05:06] translating Bibles. Uh when you go and [05:09] and and look up his references of of [05:11] where he translated those things and you [05:13] reach out to those organizations, they [05:14] will say uh Brian Simmons had no [05:16] participation with us in any form of [05:17] translation. Though he worked with our [05:19] teams, uh he was not a translator and [05:22] did was not responsible for translating. [05:23] So um a lot of really serious concerns [05:26] there. Um, and then maybe one of the [05:28] biggest concerns that we have here is [05:29] the physics of heaven book that was [05:31] forwarded I do believe by Chris Valatin [05:34] uh and uh has been sold in their [05:36] bookstores uh the physics of heaven book [05:39] um openly claims to take new age [05:41] practices and whitewash them into [05:43] Christianity uh which we call [05:44] synretatism and that is a very dangerous [05:48] unbiblical and ungodly practice. So when [05:50] I, you know, when I come on the scene, [05:52] there's a lot of things people really [05:53] want to pick on Bethleore, uh, you know, [05:55] Christian tarot cards, grave soaking, [05:57] calling the Holy Spirit a blue genie. [05:59] I'll acknowledge of those things. I [06:01] think those things have been repented [06:02] of. Those things have been publicly [06:04] they've [06:05] >> Exactly. So I'm not out here. [06:07] >> It's really not okay. Sorry. I I just [06:10] want to acknowledge this because I I see [06:11] this with a lot of people who are really [06:12] critical right now of Bethl's response. [06:14] Like, what about this, this, and this? [06:15] And I'm like, guys, they they have [06:17] publicly said, "We don't endorse that [06:18] practice. This is bad. [06:19] >> That's right. [06:20] >> Yeah. People keep shoving it in their [06:21] face. And so I want to again balls and [06:24] strikes, right? So I want to at least [06:25] give credit to where credit's due. Um [06:27] and and let me just say I don't not [06:29] everything I'm going to say is going to [06:30] be positive towards Bethl in this [06:32] critique. Um but I want to give [06:35] positives where they deserve to have [06:37] them. So [06:38] >> yeah. So I I'm bringing all this up to [06:40] say there are people who are going to [06:42] watch us. I'm going to say things like [06:43] I'm proud of Bethl Church. Way to go [06:46] leaders. you know, like this is this is [06:48] the right response. I'm going to say [06:49] those kinds of very positive sorts of [06:51] things throughout this video. And as I [06:53] do so, I don't want people to think [06:55] because I'm thankful of this what seems [06:57] to be a legitimate work of repentance. [06:59] Um I don't want them to think therefore [07:01] Bethl is a safe place. Because again, I [07:03] I there is a track record. Even if you [07:05] want to say, hey, they've repented for [07:06] the tarot cards and calling the Holy [07:08] Spirit a blue genie and uh the grave [07:10] soaking thing, which I do think that [07:11] they've, you know, uh repented for. Even [07:14] if we were to say, "Okay, they've [07:16] repented for those things, and there's [07:17] these things over here they haven't [07:18] repented of that I'd love to see them [07:19] make statements about," there is a [07:22] trajectory. There is a regular um [07:25] practice of what I would say unsafe and [07:29] and a lack of discernment. There is a uh [07:31] a a prolific pattern of a lack of [07:33] discernment throughout this ministry. [07:35] And I still am concerned. That is not to [07:38] say, I don't think they're Christian [07:39] brothers. is not to say um I I in my [07:42] last video I was like hey Mark and avoid [07:44] this is dangerous. Uh I want to say here [07:46] um I still think that you should have [07:48] high discernment and be very concerned [07:50] about the things that are going on. [07:51] However, I think what we see is a work [07:54] of the Holy Spirit causing repentance in [07:56] the hearts of these people. And I'm [07:58] thankful for it and I want to champion [07:59] the good that I see while still calling [08:00] balls and strikes. So I know that's a a [08:03] complicated thing right out the gate. [08:04] Um, but I want people to know where my [08:07] posture is and my heart's at when I'm [08:08] talking about all this stuff. And what I [08:10] don't want them to do is when they hear [08:11] me champion, oh, way to go. Thanks for [08:13] doing that. Therefore, everything Bethl [08:15] does is okay in the eyes of Josh. I I [08:17] still think that you need intense [08:19] discernment when when walking with this [08:21] this ministry. Uh, Miller, [08:24] >> well, I think it's important ju just [08:26] because our last video got a massive um [08:30] view count and I think it's because I [08:31] think Bethl was watching. I think a lot [08:33] of people from Bethl, I think they, you [08:35] know, I I begged them to take an honest [08:37] look at what we were saying uh about the [08:38] sermon. I think they did. I think the [08:40] alumni showed up both after what Winger [08:42] did and then Chris's sermon. Um they [08:46] showed up to to hold their leaders [08:47] accountable. I'm so proud of them for [08:48] that. Like I just I'm so proud of them [08:50] for that. Um, but since that's might be [08:54] the audience that is tuning in right [08:56] now, I I want to explain what Josh means [08:58] by discernment versus what I think is [09:00] often talked about as discernment in [09:02] charismatic circles. When Josh says [09:05] discernment, he think he's thinking of [09:06] Hebrews 5:14. Solid food is for the [09:08] mature man who through practice has [09:10] trained their senses to discern good and [09:12] evil. Okay, it's in the context of [09:15] knowing the basic foundational doctrines [09:17] and being able to guard those doctrines [09:19] as well as propagate those doctrines. [09:21] Now, it is not some sort of discern by [09:24] the spirit. Uh this person is lying. [09:27] This person is telling the truth. This [09:28] person has has you know they're not [09:30] trustworthy. Um now there is the [09:32] discernment word discernment is used one [09:34] other time in scripture and that's in 1 [09:36] Corinthians 12 when it talks about one [09:38] of the gifts of the spirit, discerning [09:40] of spirits. Uh, again, I don't think it [09:42] means some sort of spiritual discernment [09:44] in the sense of like this person's good, [09:45] this person's bad, this person's lying, [09:47] this person's telling the truth, this [09:48] person's sincere, insincere, anything [09:49] like that. Um, I think what it's [09:51] referring to is when you're praying for [09:53] people, you can discern whether they [09:54] have a spirit there, uh, that needs to [09:57] be kicked out. So, um, the kind of [10:00] talking about is discernment by the [10:01] scriptures. [10:02] >> I want to catch you there real quick [10:03] because you said, uh, the other time [10:06] discernment is used, Miller is not [10:07] saying discernment is only used two [10:09] times in the Bible. the word comes up a [10:11] couple of times. He is talking about two [10:13] different kinds of discernment. There is [10:14] a discernment when it relates to [10:16] doctrine. Uh when it comes to like kind [10:18] of critical thinking, we should discern [10:19] what is good and it is evil. Uh we [10:22] should uh prove and test things as the [10:24] scripture tells us to. Um but he is also [10:27] talking about a a kind of uh the the [10:29] kind of rational spirit informed um [10:33] critical thinking and then the spiritual [10:35] gift of discernment of spirits. And [10:36] those are two separate categories that [10:39] we're talking about. Um, but I think [10:41] they could often overlap. [10:43] >> Yeah, those two separate categories [10:44] though are are often not employed when [10:47] most people in charismatic circles are [10:49] saying, "Oh, that person's really [10:50] discerning or I'm going to use my my [10:52] spiritual discerning." Uh, I'm like, [10:55] well, what do you mean by that? Um, [10:57] because it seems like you have some sort [10:59] of inner knowing that is what's allowing [11:01] you to discern whether or not the [11:02] person's being sincere or telling the [11:04] truth or not. Whereas I want to discern [11:06] by the scriptures whether or not the [11:08] things they're saying are factually true [11:11] in scripture or are contradicting what [11:13] the scriptures teach. [11:14] >> That's right. Okay. So, we've got two [11:17] videos that we're trying to tackle um at [11:19] least today. Uh one from Chris Valatin [11:21] and one from Bill Johnson. Now, uh I [11:24] think it's I want to give credit where [11:26] credit is due. Dan, is it Dan Farley? Is [11:29] it? Or Fairley? I don't know how to [11:30] pronounce his last name. [11:31] >> Fairly I believe. Okay. Dan, I've seen [11:34] his responding to Bethl videos. I've [11:36] always perceived that Dan is more of the [11:39] theologically wired individual in that [11:41] camp. Uh, and I'm thankful for those [11:44] videos when he was able to parse [11:46] doctrine in a helpful way. Um, I'm also [11:49] extremely thankful for his repentance on [11:52] the front end. So, this video uh I think [11:55] altogether was like an hour 20 minutes [11:56] just the sermon side of it. Uh, and it [11:58] starts with Dan Farley getting up and [12:00] saying, "Hey, uh, I uh have screwed up [12:03] in this area." He he says, "This this uh [12:07] accident, this uh this breach of [12:09] conduct, this was sin." He he doesn't [12:12] call it anything else. He calls it a [12:13] mistake, but then he says, "To be clear, [12:14] this mistake was sin. It was sinful for [12:16] us to do this." Um, and then at the end [12:18] of uh Chris Valatin and Bill Johnson [12:21] kind of giving their repentance that [12:23] we're going to watch, he then at the end [12:25] gives a public statement to Bethl Church [12:28] and those who follow. Sean BS is a [12:30] dangerous dude. Be careful of this guy [12:33] if you're going to have any kind of [12:34] participation with his ministry. Know [12:36] about these allegations of sexual [12:37] misconduct and know about this mining of [12:41] prophetic ministry. Um, and then he [12:43] actually invites people who have been uh [12:46] taken advantage of by Chris um to reach [12:49] out to Bethl Church at a specific email [12:51] that can be found in the video if you [12:52] guys would like to watch it. And uh he [12:54] says, "Hey, if you've been harmed by [12:55] this material, if we've contributed to [12:58] that harm in any way, uh please reach [13:00] out to us. We want to help." I don't [13:01] know what that looks like, but I am [13:03] actually thankful that they did that. [13:04] So, uh I I want to thank Dan for owning [13:07] the mistake and then giving the public [13:08] statement, which really we were calling [13:10] for. we were saying, "Hey, you've got to [13:12] mark in avoid." They did. They went [13:14] public and they marked in a void. And um [13:16] I'm proud of them for that. I want to [13:17] thank Dan for it. Any other things that [13:19] you want to add into this before we look [13:20] at these videos from Chris and Bill? [13:23] >> Oh, uh yes. Well, we're also going to [13:26] look at a statement that Danny Silk just [13:28] put out today that went out to all of [13:30] his email subscribers on Living on [13:31] Purpose. Um that's probably going to be [13:34] the most critical piece that I have in [13:36] all of this. Um because I think there's [13:38] there's [13:40] there's more to that. I I'll we'll get [13:41] to that. That'll probably be at the very [13:42] end. [13:43] >> Sounds good. Well, we'll save that for [13:45] the end. Uh we've got that queued up. [13:46] Whenever you're ready, you just call for [13:47] it, buddy. Um the way this is going to [13:49] work is a little bit different than [13:50] other videos that we've done. Uh we [13:52] typically have played, you know, five [13:53] minute video, give some commentary, play [13:55] another five-minute video, give some [13:56] commentary. But in uh this response, [13:58] what we're going to do is we're just [13:59] going to play unedited clip of Chris [14:01] Valatin saying, "Hey, this is where we [14:03] screwed up." and Miller can flag me when [14:05] he wants to pause and we'll give some [14:06] commentary and we'll go back into the [14:08] video and it'll pick up right where we [14:09] left off. Okay, without further ado, [14:12] let's dive into it. Here's this video [14:13] from Chris Falatin from the Sunday [14:16] morning [14:17] before. Well, I've done it twice today [14:18] already. [14:19] >> I feel a little bit uh like my emotional [14:22] tank is emptying, but um [14:25] I feel loved by it. Um so, I'm going to [14:27] take you on a little journey and tell [14:28] you about the process what Sean Boltz [14:30] said. I I want to say I had I've had a [14:32] heart change and on Monday morning I had [14:34] an encounter with the Lord and I I see [14:37] things quite differently and I'll talk [14:38] about the change in my heart since that [14:40] encounter um to that. So in um 2019 it [14:44] came to our attention uh through some [14:45] European leaders that that that Sean [14:47] Boltz was using Facebook to get some of [14:49] his uh words of knowledge and um we got [14:51] involved Danny and I Danny Silk and I [14:53] Bill was out with his wife was passing [14:55] sick and uh we got involved and uh we [14:59] began to do an investigation as we we [15:01] were doing that somewhere in the midst [15:02] of that it might have even started first [15:04] sexual allegations about Sean's uh [15:06] ministry and specifically around his [15:08] employees cameass [15:10] >> sexual harassment came to Right. And um [15:13] Danny uh got in the trenches there and [15:15] began to investigate the sexual [15:16] allegations and also the u and Danny got [15:19] the there was 14 uh Facebook videos that [15:20] the Europeans had put together in their [15:22] own investigation and they said, "Can [15:23] you guys do something about this?" So [15:25] Danny, who was uh you know, we we were [15:27] I'll say we were all friends of Sean. [15:28] Sean was here many times in 2014 when I [15:30] had a nervous breakdown. He ministered [15:31] to me several times during my nurse [15:32] breakdown. And so he was a friend of the [15:35] house at the time. and Danny looked at [15:37] the videos and flew to LA and showed him [15:41] the videos and also showed him the [15:43] sexual uh allegations and he flatly [15:46] denied it. I didn't do that. I would [15:47] never do that. Um I don't know why you [15:49] think I do that. And it just went [15:50] nowhere. And so Danny, I I took on the [15:54] prophetic side. I said, I'll I'll work [15:55] on the prophetic thing and you work on [15:57] the allegations, the sexual allegations. [15:59] So Danny did some research, got a hold [16:00] of some other former employees, and it [16:02] turned out, I'll share I'll spare you [16:04] all the facts, but it turned out that [16:06] those allegations were not only true, [16:07] but it was a culture for a long time. [16:11] Sorry. And so I flew to LA and [16:14] confronted him and it was a 4-hour [16:16] meeting. The first two hours was [16:17] confronting him as Galatians 1 as a [16:20] friend who had sinned and calling him to [16:23] repentance. And he's flatly denied that [16:25] he had done anything wrong, that he [16:26] would never do that. And it it really [16:29] got nowhere. The last two hours were a [16:31] very different meeting, very passionate [16:33] meeting. And I was saying to him, if you [16:36] don't confess your sin, if someone else [16:37] has to confess your sin, it's going to [16:38] get ugly because if you confess your [16:40] sin, you're going to get forgiveness and [16:41] you're going to get repentance and [16:42] you're going to get whole. But if [16:43] someone else confesses your sin, your [16:44] whole ministry is going to burn down. [16:46] And I was like, "Ro, your ministry is [16:47] going to burn down if you don't if you [16:49] don't get in here and do the right [16:50] thing." [16:52] So he did it. It went on for a long [16:55] time. We we all felt that we should give [16:57] him some time. and we were texting back [16:58] and forth and pretty soon it was just [16:59] like no no no messages back I'm not [17:01] doing anything this is not happening and [17:04] I I just be so we began to meet this is [17:06] like almost a year passed and part of it [17:08] is uh so part of I think the timeline is [17:10] that you know there was co we were in co [17:13] was passing [17:14] um what's that Ken left and one of my [17:18] very close very close family members [17:20] began a divorce [17:22] and I was completely exhausted that's no [17:25] excuse but that is where we were. And so [17:29] we had a conversation like what should [17:31] we do? [17:32] >> And he's not. [17:35] >> Yes, sir. [17:37] >> Oh, I there's a couple of things I [17:38] wanted to just comment on right at the [17:40] beginning. [17:42] >> Uh, one, I see a very different posture [17:46] right here at the beginning with Chris. [17:48] You can see a man who's clearly he's [17:52] hurting. Um, I don't know what the [17:55] encounter was. It could just be as [17:56] simple as, [17:58] you know, conviction of the spirit. Um, [18:01] but this posture is is definitely a 180 [18:04] from the week before. Uh, I think the [18:07] other thing that I'm appreciating is [18:08] that he is using the actual terms to [18:12] name these sins. He didn't say that Sean [18:15] made some mistakes. He said sexual [18:18] harassment, data mining for prophecy. [18:21] Uh, I also appreciate that he um [18:26] in talking about what was going on, he [18:28] made the distinction, that's not an [18:30] excuse. I have a buddy who uses this [18:32] phrase that's helped me over the years. [18:34] Um, explanation, not justification. He's [18:37] like, here's what was going on. I'm just [18:39] explaining this. I'm not justifying it. [18:41] None of this justifies whatever I'm [18:43] about to say. So, um, I think those are [18:45] all really important little distinctions [18:47] there. Sorry. [18:49] >> No, that's good. Do you know who the [18:50] folks in Europe are who are responding [18:53] to all this who have collected all these [18:55] videos? [18:55] >> Okay. I'm I'm curious. [18:57] >> Um, but you know, Danny, [19:00] >> you know, is speaking about everything [19:01] that's taking place in 2020 essentially [19:03] because he's talking about co [19:04] >> Chris, you mean [19:06] >> did I say I'm so sorry. Uh, yes. Chris [19:08] is speaking about what happened, you [19:09] know, in 2020. Uh, Benny being Bill [19:12] Johnson's wife whose passing of cancer, [19:15] uh, which was extremely tragic. um [19:17] Aaron, someone at the church who had [19:18] left. Uh I think they had like an [19:19] administrative role there at the church [19:21] and a family divorce. I I think any of [19:23] us who have had to investigate any kind [19:26] of church discipline sort of situation [19:29] who have gone into this process will [19:30] tell you when it rains it storms and it [19:33] feels like it is the most inopportune [19:35] time every time this happens. So, I I [19:38] feel uh compassion for the guy and go, [19:41] "Okay, I understand how in 2020 you [19:43] could have really dragged your feet on [19:45] something like this." Um, and to [19:47] Miller's point, that doesn't justify the [19:49] action. It just explains what was going [19:51] on when all of this happens. And, um, I [19:54] think that's helpful. Um, I'm going to [19:55] punch back to it. [20:00] >> Okay. Well, let's take him off of all of [20:01] our platforms. So, we took him off all [20:02] of our platforms. We took all his books [20:04] out of our bookstore. We took all this [20:05] messages off off our uh you know off of [20:07] our network and we we told a bunch of [20:09] our close ministry friends that we knew [20:11] were having him on their platform. [20:14] But here's the challenge that I didn't [20:15] understand till 4 days ago, 5 days ago. [20:18] I thought we were helping somebody else [20:19] with their problem. He was on many many [20:22] platforms. I don't know 100 to 200 [20:23] churches. Those European leaders asked [20:25] us to help. We weren't on his board. We [20:27] went to his board on a couple of [20:28] occasions. They did nothing. And I I was [20:31] I the staff member like that happens in [20:33] our staff. that is not going to go. I [20:35] was like, this is not our this is not [20:36] our responsibility. This is someone [20:38] else's responsibility. We've done what [20:39] we could and that was a serious mistake. [20:42] And as soon as we did that, other people [20:45] other people believed in him because we [20:47] believed in him. And consequently, when [20:49] he failed and then failed to repent [20:51] after giving him time to repent, it was [20:53] our responsibility to tell the people [20:55] that we told we trust this man to tell [20:57] them we don't trust this man. And that [20:59] didn't happen. And that's on me. I made [21:01] that decision. Um, I know that it sounds [21:04] like we were hiding something. Uh, I I [21:05] want to point out to everyone who knows [21:06] me in our global audience, too. I [21:09] confess my own sins. Well, when the Lord [21:11] talked to me about cussing, I'm like [21:12] about a week later, I told the whole [21:13] world. [21:15] I've never been I I've never been able [21:16] to live with I do something wrong and I [21:19] don't confess it. So, it it wasn't in my [21:21] mind to cover up thing. It was it was a [21:24] couple of things. One, I struggled with [21:25] what is our responsibility, which I see [21:27] completely different. And by the way, [21:28] it's so snap that somebody has to put [21:31] out a video [21:33] that creates a firestorm to get someone [21:36] who's 70 years old to do something. [21:39] That's an indictment against my [21:40] leadership. I should have known better. [21:42] And if I didn't know better, I should [21:43] have went and got counsel. And I didn't [21:45] do that. And I'm very sorry. [21:49] I take full responsibility for that. [21:56] I'm very sorry. [21:58] And being sorry doesn't fix anything [22:00] because the side effects of that are [22:03] that people took prophetic words from [22:06] Shawn [22:07] and as news came out and of course it it [22:10] will. We live in a social media world. I [22:12] don't know what to do. What do I do with [22:13] this prophetic word by somebody who's [22:14] been getting mining Facebook to get his [22:17] words of knowledge? What do I do with [22:18] these? And instead of stepping in and [22:21] and helping process [22:25] like what do you do with these words? [22:27] And then the sexual allegations, what do [22:29] we do? One of the victims, [22:33] I'm sorry. One of the victims of the [22:35] sexual allegations reached out to me and [22:36] wanted me to help. I did. I reached out [22:39] to Sean on several occasions and after a [22:41] while just got so mold it didn't go [22:42] anywhere. Danny was meeting with him, [22:44] too. And uh and he was persistent like [22:47] he should have been. He's asking a [22:48] spiritual father in his life, can you [22:49] help me? I'm in a crisis. And [22:51] unfortunately, his persistence [22:54] and my not knowing what else to do [22:59] caused my to me to make a decision out [23:01] of frustration instead of compassion and [23:02] I just blocked him. It wasn't the first [23:04] day or anything like that. Went on for a [23:05] long long time and I think this my my [23:07] capacity for stress was at all time low [23:09] as I was trying to help my family member [23:11] Benny and COVID and all the issues that [23:14] were happening all at once. [23:16] And it was uh sad to look back and [23:18] realize that someone reached out to me [23:19] for help. [23:21] Miller, is it true that that is a new [23:23] piece of information? I don't think this [23:24] was disclosed in Mike Winger's video [23:26] that he blocked this guy who was [23:28] reaching out to him. So, I mean, I'm [23:29] only asking this because it sounds like [23:31] Chris is kind of following falling on [23:33] his own sword here by giving up [23:34] information about something that [23:36] happened that makes him look really bad [23:38] without without anyone uh providing that [23:42] information on the front end. Am I right [23:43] in that assumption? [23:45] >> Yes. I I think that's actually what is [23:49] is a demonstration of real repentance is [23:51] you're not waiting for other people to [23:52] dig up more facts, but you're actually [23:54] self-disclosing and you're doing it [23:55] publicly. Um yeah, I that's why I do [23:59] think there is genuiness here. You're [24:02] right that that wasn't disclosed in [24:03] Winger's podcast. Yeah. So I again want [24:07] to commend the guy and saying things [24:09] like I'm 70 years old. I've been doing [24:12] this for a long time and it took a [24:13] YouTube video to get me to realize the [24:16] errors of my I mean my word's not his. [24:18] You just heard him say something [24:19] paraphrase to that. Um [24:22] that's pretty significant. Um I'm going [24:25] to keep going. [24:26] >> Yeah. [24:27] >> And not only did they not get help, they [24:29] got stonewalled. [24:30] It's not the way [24:33] a leader should behave. And I I want to [24:35] say publicly I'm so sorry for all the [24:37] people like everyone in this room. [24:38] you're carrying the stigma of my [24:39] inability to do the right thing, which [24:41] was to post, hey, we put this guy on [24:43] stage and we trusted him. Hey, we no [24:44] longer trust him. Everyone should know [24:46] that. And and I didn't do that. So, I [24:49] especially apologize to the victims. [24:50] This this the victims of the [24:53] inappropriate sexual culture and and [24:55] obviously victimic [24:58] ministry. [25:00] >> Go ahead. So, all the times I've heard [25:05] Chris respond to these kind of videos or [25:07] like when Mike Bickle came out, he [25:09] didn't mention the victims. You know, he [25:10] was all about restoring Mike Bickl and [25:12] and I put out that video saying, "Hey, [25:15] that's great. You're about to you're [25:16] ready to restore Mike Bickle who's on [25:18] repentant. What about all of his [25:19] victims? What kind of restoration do you [25:21] have in mind for them?" And then last [25:24] week, you know, our commentary, which I [25:27] can't help but wonder if he watched it. [25:29] Um, because he's kind of going line by [25:31] line through like our basic, you know, [25:34] what were what did you you call them? [25:35] Headings maybe for each little clip that [25:37] we showed. Um, it seems like he's going [25:40] line by line through that and [25:42] responding. And this is the first time [25:43] I'm hearing him acknowledge that there [25:45] are real victims and he's apologizing to [25:47] them. Now [25:50] I know this is a public statement. Um I [25:53] have heard uh that he did sit down with [25:56] Elijah and apologize to him. Um [26:00] apologies are a great first step. Um [26:02] when I look at what reconciliation and [26:05] res restoration looks like, it always [26:08] starts with repentance, which means [26:10] acknowledging your sin like this was [26:12] truly wrong and refusing to do it again. [26:15] Okay, that's that's part of it though. [26:17] Um, the other part of it is, uh, not [26:20] just the acknowledgement specifically of [26:22] what you did wrong and a commitment not [26:23] to do it in the future, but a, um, [26:27] willingness to make restitution. [26:31] And I don't know if Elijah got that. I'd [26:33] be curious. I haven't talked to Elijah [26:35] about this, but I would be curious if [26:37] any money was offered to Elijah since [26:39] that's what he lost. But restitution is [26:41] a key part of the rich repentance [26:43] process. When you look at Zakius, a tax [26:46] collector, a man who defrauded people, [26:48] when he repented, he said, 'Lord, I give [26:50] half my possessions now to the poor. If [26:52] I've defrauded anybody, I will repay [26:54] them four times the amount. That's [26:57] called restitution. Um, people who are [26:59] truly repentant, they self-disclose. [27:02] They don't wait to be found out. People [27:04] who are truly repentant, they offer [27:06] restitution and they acknowledge the [27:08] pain that they've caused others and [27:10] commit not to do that anymore. Um, I I [27:13] I'm seeing a part of repentance and and [27:17] I can't peek behind the curtain. Maybe [27:18] there's more going on than I know, but I [27:20] would love to see what does it look like [27:22] to make restitution to people. Tough [27:25] thing is there are times when your sin [27:27] is so egregious that you can't make [27:29] restitution. What was stolen, what was [27:31] damaged cannot be fixed and not be [27:33] replaced. And in those places, it's what [27:36] can I do to make it right? Would you [27:38] please forgive me of this debt? Um, and [27:41] I I I think in this case that may be [27:43] exactly what's going to happen have to [27:45] happen because I don't know how many [27:47] people were hurt by Sean. I don't know [27:49] how many people are now dealing with the [27:51] the [27:53] cognitive dissonance of he gave me this [27:54] word and I've been living my life based [27:56] on this word and now I realize it might [27:59] all be fake. Um, there's just so much to [28:02] that. So anyway, um, [28:05] I'm not saying that he's not doing those [28:07] things. I am saying those are things [28:08] that should also come with repentance [28:11] and uh that being restitution and I'd be [28:15] curious to know and maybe maybe they'll [28:17] let the public know. The problem is is [28:19] that your trust has been so broken with [28:21] the public at large that in order for [28:24] them to actually know if you're truly [28:26] repentant, you're going to have to take [28:28] some steps publicly to also let the [28:30] public know here's what I'm doing to [28:32] make it right. So I think there's some [28:34] things they're doing. I don't know if if [28:36] what they're doing to make it right is [28:38] just a a systemwide thing to fix how [28:41] this problem even came up at Bethl [28:42] versus actual restitution to the victims [28:45] that are already there. [28:48] >> Yeah. I mean, the [28:50] Dan Dan's statement at the end, not [28:52] Danny Silk, but Dan Fairley. Um at the [28:54] end of the video, you know, says, "Hey, [28:56] if you've been hurt by any of this, [28:57] please email us. We want to try to help [28:58] in any way that we can." I don't know if [29:00] that means counseling. I don't know if [29:02] that means um just give us feedback. I [29:05] don't know if that means hey, we're [29:06] going to try to make restitution in any [29:08] way that we can. I'm not sure. Um but I [29:11] do know that this is the first step and [29:14] I want to champion every positive step [29:16] that I see um for brothers and sisters [29:19] who are repenting and this is a good and [29:21] right thing to do. So I just I just want [29:23] to encourage Chris. We came at you hard [29:25] on the paint on our last video. Um, but [29:28] I I want to I I want to in the same way [29:31] encourage a brother to say like I see [29:34] the work of God in your heart as you [29:36] repent through the process here and I'm [29:38] thankful for that and I'm not jumping on [29:40] board. It's just assuming it's a show [29:41] and assuming it's just um you know uh [29:44] what's the word I'm looking for? Uh [29:46] spinning the narrative like [29:47] >> damage control. Damage control. That's [29:48] the word that everyone online wants to [29:50] use. I I I lo love hopes the best, [29:53] right? And I'm over here hoping that [29:55] what I'm seeing is like legitimate and [29:57] true. And I want to champion that. I [29:58] want to I want to thank you for [30:00] disclosing things that nobody else knew. [30:02] That's good. Um and and I hope that [30:04] there's still as as Miller said some [30:07] some attempt at restitution. And I know [30:09] that's going to be difficult with how [30:11] widespread the impact of Shawn BS was. [30:13] And um I we might have to acknowledge [30:16] that this is beyond restitution for [30:18] everyone. Um and I and I I get that. Um, [30:22] and I'm glad that you realized and he's [30:24] going to he's going to continue to go [30:25] on. He's going to restate a few of these [30:27] things, so I'm going to let him do that. [30:28] Uh, anything else you want to add on [30:29] this, Miller? [30:31] >> No. Um, [30:32] >> okay. [30:33] >> Again, my heart just kind of hurts [30:34] watching. Like, I really do feel sad. [30:37] >> Um, this has got to be hard. It's got to [30:39] be incredibly hard. [30:41] >> I agree. [30:43] >> We struggled with what do I do with this [30:44] word? Some of the words were amazing. Do [30:46] I believe this word? Do I put faith in [30:47] it anymore? How do I process this? And [30:49] frankly, we had never processed that on [30:50] that level before. So it was new [30:52] territory for us. It's again [30:56] not an excuse. I Sunday night I was not [30:59] in this this is our this is our [31:01] responsibility mode. I was still in hey [31:03] we did more than 100 platforms he was [31:05] on. Hey we took our own time to [31:07] investigate this. We confronted and [31:08] confronted to no solution. And then it's [31:11] like and and I I I was in this mode of [31:13] like I don't know why everybody's mad at [31:14] us. Like who else did anything not [31:16] realizing like we're the ones who put [31:17] them on a global platform? We're the [31:19] ones who caused to go from this to this. [31:23] It was on us and honestly to you know I [31:26] say sometimes adversity introduces a man [31:27] to himself and I saw in me a man I did [31:29] not like Monday morning and I want to [31:33] thank people who push back and we're [31:35] dedicated to the body of Christ being a [31:37] we we need it's not fun but we need that [31:39] kind of push back. Last Sunday night, I [31:43] was trying to uh process externally, [31:45] which I'm sort of famous for doing. Like [31:47] I don't totally have it figured out, but [31:48] I think I'll just tell everybody about [31:49] it and maybe it'll maybe it'll be a good [31:51] message. [31:53] I had a sincere heart. I was really [31:54] trying to share with our body with all [31:56] of these Facebook because all these, you [31:57] know, social media swirl my friends are [31:58] like, "Say something." And I'm like, [32:00] "Oh, you know, what am I going to say?" [32:02] What I'm going to say is, "Wow, it's [32:04] really hard to pastor a global body 21st [32:06] century with social media." That was [32:08] really a pretty dumb response actually. [32:10] Especially since I hadn't worked out how [32:12] to do it. Like let's just tell everybody [32:13] I don't know what I'm doing. And I [32:15] actually quoted Revelation 2 where it [32:17] says, "I know your deeds that you love [32:18] your love and faith and service and [32:20] perseverance that your deeds of later [32:21] are greater than at first." That's good. [32:22] But I have this against you that you [32:24] tolerate the woman Jezebel who calls [32:25] herself a prophetus and she teaches and [32:27] leads my bond servants astray so that [32:28] they commit acts of immorality and eat [32:30] sac sacrifice idols. I gave her time to [32:32] repent and she does not want to repent [32:33] of her immorality. Funny. I don't know [32:35] how you read that verse and emphasize I [32:37] gave her time to repent instead of you [32:39] tolerated the prophetess who was [32:41] perverted. But somehow I didn't get [32:43] that. Somehow I read right over that and [32:45] not saw I didn't see that the Lord was [32:47] actually speaking to us like hey you're [32:48] doing these greater works. That's [32:49] awesome. You're tolerating this [32:50] prophetic person who's actually [32:52] perverted his ministry. And I gave him [32:54] time and I'm emphasizing in my message. [32:55] I gave him time when I should have been [32:57] emphasizing I called him to judgment. [32:59] That was dumb at best. [33:03] I didn't see it. I didn't see it till [33:05] Monday morning. I saw it when I realized [33:08] this is our this isn't just this isn't [33:09] our fault, but it is definitely our [33:10] responsibility. [33:14] These are the things you know repentance [33:16] means that you take ownership of your [33:17] failure. So number one, I need to take [33:20] ownership of my failure. We failed you [33:22] as a body. We failed the students. [33:24] Failed everyone who trusts us and I [33:26] sincerely am sorry. But repentance [33:28] requires bringing forth fruit because [33:30] sorry doesn't really get it if you just [33:32] keep doing the same stupid thing over [33:33] and over. So we need to be a shift in [33:37] our cultural values and that we focus on [33:39] safety and security of our global [33:41] community. We have to focus like it's it [33:42] I I used to say it's not our [33:44] responsibility to keep everybody safe. [33:44] Well, we can't keep everybody safe but [33:46] it is our responsibility to do our best [33:47] as it depends on us to keep our people [33:49] safe and to keep the people who trust us [33:51] safe. It was a very bad core value on my [33:53] part. Number three, we must realize that [33:55] leaders who have graced our podium and [33:57] being promoted by us are thereby. We [33:59] have to care as much about their [34:01] character as we do about their gift. [34:02] When we put somebody on stage, we have [34:04] to care. [34:06] If we're going to take responsibility [34:08] when somebody that gets on our stage [34:09] falls, we got to care that they have a [34:10] track record. Now, obviously, you can do [34:12] all the investigation you want and still [34:13] make a mistake. That's a mistake. But [34:14] when you don't even try, that's not a [34:16] mistake. [34:18] >> I think it's probably fair to say, yeah, [34:19] they've probably always said things like [34:21] that. They've probably always said we [34:23] care more about their character than [34:24] their gift. They've probably always said [34:26] that. But I think Chris is realizing we [34:28] probably haven't lived up to what we've [34:30] said here because when people's [34:32] character become it is revealed that [34:35] they are not who they say they are. Um [34:37] that we we don't follow up and and speak [34:41] to that. Um couple things he's [34:44] mentioned. Um talking about being hard [34:47] to pastor in the 21st century. That was [34:49] pretty dumb. Revelation two, how I [34:52] preached that and emphasized this about [34:54] tolerating the sin. Uh, you know, I [34:57] didn't see that part, but I saw the part [34:58] that Jesus gave her time to repent. Um, [35:01] and he goes, I don't know how I saw [35:02] that. That was pretty dumb. I mean, he's [35:04] owning this stuff. I think as best as [35:06] you can, and again, thankful for it. [35:10] Uh, I agree with you. Uh, I think the [35:14] sad thing is is this is a process. Most [35:18] people when they've suddenly found a [35:20] blind spot, uh, a sinful blind spot, I [35:22] don't want to just say this is a [35:24] mistake, but when you find a sinful [35:26] blind spot in your life, takes you quite [35:29] a while to really unpack that. And right [35:32] now, I think he's at the very beginning [35:33] of unpacking that. Not just him, but [35:35] probably all the Beth leaders, and some, [35:37] I don't think, even quite get it yet. [35:39] And I would suspect that they've only [35:41] begun to scratch the surface on the [35:44] value system that got them this result. [35:47] Um, and I I have a question for Chris. [35:50] As much as I I am fully acknowledging [35:53] here that there is a genuine heart of [35:56] repentance here from what I can tell, as [35:58] best as I can guess at somebody's [36:00] motives, I don't think you're doing [36:01] damage control. I think you really did [36:05] have a change of heart. Um, but I also [36:08] would ask you, who else is out there [36:10] that's a victim um that you failed? you [36:14] know, maybe you did more than other [36:16] churches, but [36:19] when they came to you, did you put it [36:20] back on them on some level? Um, are [36:23] there others out there that, you know, [36:25] your concern was more for the leader [36:28] that was your friend than it was for the [36:30] person bringing a story to you? Um, is [36:32] there anybody else out there that when [36:34] they brought you their story, you didn't [36:35] believe them or you assumed the worst [36:37] about their motivation when they brought [36:39] it forward? Um these are questions I [36:41] think that are worth as uh answering and [36:44] uh having some serious time of [36:46] reflection on. Um but also who else did [36:49] you platform? You know the only the [36:52] video that Mike did that got all the [36:53] attention Mike Winger um the six-hour [36:56] long video it was uh preceded or it was [36:59] there was a video prior to that also [37:01] about a failure of Bethl which had to do [37:04] with Bob Hartley. He hasn't been [37:06] mentioned in this and I think you guys [37:08] know that. I'm sure you've heard by now. [37:12] Um, but I I would imagine from what I [37:15] can tell and what I remember in that [37:17] video, uh, he allegedly went on to harm [37:20] others. Um, Bethl, you warned your [37:22] friends, but did you warn the body at [37:24] large? Is there somebody else that you [37:26] helped platform? Maybe he didn't take [37:28] the stage as often. Maybe he didn't get [37:31] quite the props that Shawn BS got, but [37:34] he was definitely an influential person [37:36] in that community who did a lot of [37:38] damage to a lot of people. Um, where are [37:41] you guys at on him? Uh, now I would love [37:45] to throw Kenneth Copeland in the mix on [37:48] this one because I think he's actually [37:50] committing heresy. Um, and I suspect you [37:54] guys don't quite see it yet. So, uh, [37:56] I'll allow that process to continue, but [37:59] I don't think that any of you quite [38:01] fully grasp the harm that's happened [38:03] just yet. I think you're grasping some [38:05] of it. I don't think you grasp the [38:07] values that are underlying the culture [38:10] that allowed this to happen. Um, and I [38:13] would like to talk about that maybe [38:14] towards the end. Some of the things that [38:16] I think have led you guys to uh to be in [38:19] this place, this really difficult place. [38:22] So, yeah, that's it. Spoiler alert, it [38:25] has things to do written by Danny Silk. [38:27] No. Okay. Um, [38:29] >> well, Danny Silk just [38:31] >> Well, he he just put into writing what [38:33] all of them were propagating and [38:34] believing. So, you can't you can't put [38:36] it all on Danny. I think Danny just knew [38:38] how to put [38:39] >> I'll tell you, I think I think Culture [38:41] of Honor has as a book as a whole has [38:44] propagated [38:47] charismatic wide kind of influence. [38:49] >> We've already done a review. We've done [38:50] a review on on Culture of Honor. I think [38:52] it was a three-part review and you can [38:54] maybe Josh you can link those videos [38:55] here. [38:57] >> Describe like here's some of the [38:58] problems with Culture of Honor. But [39:00] >> the other one we're going to talk about [39:01] is unlovable or no sorry unpunishable. [39:03] Not unlovable. Unpunishable. Um all [39:05] right, keep going. Let's let's let's let [39:07] Chris continue to speak for himself [39:09] here. [39:11] >> Number four, we have to take steps to [39:12] bring greater accountability to our own [39:13] leadership teams and ensure that we [39:15] together without these values. We have [39:17] to call each other to account when we [39:19] break these core values that we're [39:20] creating or we say, "Hey, it is our job [39:23] to keep people safe. At least as it [39:24] depends on us. This is our job. This is [39:26] not their job because he's in some other [39:27] ministry or he's not on our board. We're [39:29] not on his board." And and we just fluff [39:30] it off. And then what happens? Comes [39:31] into our into our network. It comes into [39:33] our people in the body of Christ and [39:35] wres havoc. And we're like, "Well, [39:37] that's not my problem. I'm sorry. From [39:39] now on, it is our problem. And from now [39:40] on, we better think of how we're going [39:42] to solve that problem." And I don't know [39:43] that's going to be an easy solution, but [39:45] the Lord will give us good wisdom and [39:46] grace and we will figure it out and we [39:47] will be a better movement in the future. [39:50] We want to remain a place of restoration [39:51] for leaders but not at the expense of [39:54] protecting the flock. Listen, people [39:56] come here from all over the world. Some [39:57] of you know, some of them you don't. It [39:58] happens a lot here. A leader who has [40:00] fallen comes into our midst and we help [40:02] restore them. And we restored so many [40:03] people. And I'm going to tell you that I [40:05] a product [40:07] of that restoration. I met this man when [40:10] I was 26 years old and I was in the [40:12] middle of a three and a half year [40:13] nervous breakdown and he wrapped his [40:14] arms around a broken kid with two little [40:16] kids and a wife who moved to the [40:18] mountains because I was mentally ill and [40:20] he believed in me and I don't want to [40:22] lose that. [40:23] But in the midst of that core value, we [40:25] have to protect the flock. We can't let [40:27] predators and people who are unrepentant [40:31] have our podiums and be among our people [40:34] when they are still destructive. [40:36] And I think this is another good example [40:38] of explanation, not justification. Um, I [40:42] I think that when we look at the text of [40:43] scripture of even like David and Solomon [40:46] or David, not David and Solomon, David [40:48] and Abselum, you know, David's sin as it [40:50] related to Tamar. Um, and David's [40:53] unwillingness to punish that thing [40:55] likely had something to do with David's [40:57] own origin stories and how he realized [40:59] he was not above approach uh when it [41:03] came to uh punishing and disciplining [41:06] sexual sin. Because David got out of [41:07] line. It seemed as if he was unwilling [41:09] to discipline Abselin. And I think that, [41:12] you know, when you've got a background [41:14] that's like, I was broken. I was, you [41:16] know, I was a leader and um, you know, [41:19] someone restored me. I I know I I I've [41:22] told Miller this. I I have a bit of [41:23] survivors guilt is what I call it cuz I [41:25] know a bunch of guys who have got [41:27] doctorates and PhDs and like their [41:29] masters in theology, doctorates in [41:31] theology. I'm over here like I got a [41:33] homeschool education and I read books on [41:35] a podcast. How did how did we make a [41:38] living doing this when all my other [41:40] buddies who have these degrees and are [41:42] just brilliant at, you know, [41:43] individuals? H how is it that they, you [41:46] know, are are working part-time jobs to [41:48] try to take care of their family and [41:49] can't do the thing that they love and [41:50] their passion in theology and they're [41:52] more qualified and they're probably [41:53] better speakers and they've got all [41:55] these things going for them. Um, and [41:57] it's like, man, when when people are [41:58] down on their luck, I I'll I'll try to [42:00] bend over backwards to help people [42:01] succeed in life because I realized [42:03] someone helped me. So I I understand [42:06] that kind of like hey this is my [42:08] background and this is my baggage and [42:10] this has informed why um I have uh you [42:14] know treated Shawn this way. Um but I [42:16] think we would just acknowledge David [42:18] sinned you know when he didn't [42:19] discipline Abselon and Shawn or here [42:22] Chris is acknowledging that that he has [42:24] sinned by not disciplining Shawn. That [42:26] being said, I think that does help us [42:28] frame why they have um championed the [42:31] mercy for the leadership is because they [42:33] are they are themselves recipients of [42:35] that mercy. Um and I love what I hear [42:37] him saying here. We're going to continue [42:39] to try to restore ministers not at the [42:41] expense of individuals. And I think that [42:43] was a bold and uh honest sort of thing [42:47] to say. I'm thankful for it. Uh, again, [42:51] I I I hear the the words I'm sorry, and [42:55] I hear the words we're making a change. [42:57] What I still haven't heard is here's [42:59] what we're going to do to make it right [43:00] to the victims. I haven't heard the [43:03] restitution component of reconciliation. [43:06] And I'm still kind of uh again, I maybe [43:09] they don't see it. Maybe they haven't [43:11] even thought about that. And who knows, [43:13] maybe this video will prompt them in [43:14] that direction. They go, "Oh, wow. Yeah, [43:15] that's a really good idea. We should be [43:17] doing that as well. Thank you for [43:18] pointing that out." Um I hope that's the [43:20] case. Uh the other thing is I do have [43:24] some concern when like well let me [43:26] rephrase that. He says we want to [43:29] restore broken leaders but not at the [43:31] cost of victims. [43:33] I actually think this is where the book [43:36] unpunishable is important to talk about. [43:39] Uh again I think Danny Silk has put into [43:42] words a value that Bethl has. But I do [43:45] think that book is very problematic, [43:47] especially at the very beginning in the [43:49] main case that they bring up is about a [43:52] a fallen leader, a guy who had had two [43:54] affairs and um had slept with uh [43:58] somebody he had invited into their home. [44:01] And they restored that broken leader. [44:02] They didn't fire him. They brought him [44:05] through they did they did diminish his [44:07] authority for a time and then they [44:09] restored him back to his position after [44:11] bringing him through counseling, you [44:12] know. And it's it's sort of this like [44:14] celebrated story at Bethl. The problem [44:17] that I found with that story is the [44:19] victim was nowhere in view. Like they [44:21] don't talk about the restoration of the [44:22] victim. They don't talk about whether [44:23] the victim was okay with that leader [44:25] being restored to that position. Was the [44:28] church safe for the victim? Um so like [44:30] here here's another example. In fact, uh [44:33] I have a Reddit thread that I'm pretty [44:35] sure is the victim from what I can tell. [44:38] And here's what the victim said. Uh, [44:40] also Danny in the book, he says it was [44:42] an affair. Here's the victim's response. [44:45] Um, still recovering, heavily in [44:48] therapy. The whole situation was very [44:50] bad. More to the story than anyone will [44:52] know. Ben was a father to me, a pastor. [44:54] I was groomed, but I'm okay. I moved [44:58] away. I'm happily married to husband. [44:59] Um, there's there's more going on here, [45:01] but the essence is, hold on. This wasn't [45:03] an affair. This was CSA and [45:07] this person actually had to go through a [45:09] lot of trauma therapy. Um, I would [45:12] suggest that this person is also owed [45:14] another apology and I would be cur [45:16] curious how to know how this person [45:18] feels about Ben being on staff uh at [45:22] Bethl. Um, does she does she okay with [45:26] this restoration? Does she is it safe [45:27] for her a victim? And she was a victim. [45:30] She didn't just have an affair. this was [45:31] CSA. Um, because of the position, this [45:35] person groomed her. He was somebody she [45:37] admired and looked up to. Um, so [45:40] there's, and again, I'm not just trying [45:43] to throw shade here. I I'm I'm If you're [45:46] saying that you're about restoring the [45:48] fallen leader, but not at the cost of [45:50] the victim, I think you have other [45:52] stories to look at. I think there's a [45:54] lot more. And again, I I sense a heart [45:57] here that wants to know more and wants [45:59] to see it. So, God willing, that will [46:01] happen. But I think that book that Danny [46:03] wrote, it actually misrepresents what [46:05] really happened. Um, this was not an [46:07] affair. This was CSA and there's a [46:10] victim still uh long lost here that [46:12] hasn't been mentioned. And so, I don't [46:14] think it's a story to be celebrated [46:16] because restoration hasn't been found [46:18] for all. [46:19] >> Yeah. And take all this with a grain of [46:20] salt, too, because we're we're seven [46:22] days in, right? Eight days in from his [46:25] revelation that he had on Monday. So, [46:26] like we acknowledge this can take time. [46:28] We're not expecting you to do all this [46:29] tomorrow. It's the reason we're not [46:31] like, "Hey, now write a retraction on [46:33] the passion, your endorsement of the [46:35] passion translation and ride." No, no, [46:37] no, no. Like, hey, thank you so much for [46:38] doing this. [46:40] >> Yeah, we we we still hope for more, but [46:42] like we're actually really proud of of [46:44] this. Um, I think, you know, there was [46:46] something I said that I want to be very [46:47] clear. I would actually pause it right [46:49] now. It's probably not appropriate at [46:52] this very moment for Bethl to be [46:55] restoring fallen leaders. So, even [46:57] though I know a passion of yours and I [46:59] know that's something that you love and [47:00] I'm I'm thankful that it's something [47:02] that God's put in your heart. I would [47:04] advise finding a really good vetted [47:06] organization and taking the resources [47:09] you were doing for that and giving them [47:10] money and let them do it right now cuz I [47:12] don't think this is a a really good [47:14] position for Bethl to be in at this [47:17] moment. I think right now some of the [47:19] Bethl leadership who have just realized, [47:21] oh man, we have sinned. We have sinned [47:23] so catastro catastrophically. It's [47:26] probably like ruined people's lives, you [47:28] know, like we we mentioned Elijah [47:30] Stevens and his life savings that he put [47:33] towards a documentary that was [47:34] prophesied by Shawn BS or um oh the [47:38] tragic story of that woman Jubilee um [47:40] who was taken advantage of. Okay. Um I I [47:43] think that when you realize that you can [47:45] you have in some meaningful sense [47:47] contributed to um a very catastrophic [47:50] financial decision and a result of like [47:53] domestic violence like this might be a [47:55] season uh for us to kind of like sit [47:58] down and maybe ourselves get restored. [48:00] We probably don't need to be leading a [48:01] whole lot of other people uh through a [48:03] restoration process. And I'm not saying [48:04] this is in like I'm demanding that Bethl [48:06] leadership step down. Like I'm not the [48:08] one sitting here saying I know the I [48:10] know what is right in this situation. I [48:13] am saying that it's definitely it's [48:15] definitely wrong to be trying to [48:16] restoring others when I think that [48:18] probably probably even though I just [48:20] said I don't know that I know probably [48:21] the Bethl leadership needs to go through [48:23] a restoration process of their own. Um [48:25] >> yes. [48:26] >> Yeah. And they also need to since you're [48:30] just now hearing them talk about [48:31] victims, like the attention has now [48:33] turned to those who probably deserved it [48:34] more uh and who needed it more. Um you [48:38] need to begin to figure out what does it [48:39] look like to restore victims first. Um [48:42] that should be your bigger question. [48:44] Restore yourself then restore victims. [48:47] Uh and do that first and foremost before [48:49] you try to restore fallen leaders. Um, [48:52] that would be [48:52] >> Yeah. Put your oxygen mask on first [48:54] before you help the passenger next to [48:56] you. Right. Classic youth pastor [48:58] illustration. [48:59] >> Um, [49:00] >> yeah. [49:00] >> Okay, let's keep going. Chris is almost [49:01] done. [49:03] >> No, I'm so sorry for that. And we will [49:05] do better. Will we get it right every [49:06] time? No. But at least we should try. At [49:08] least we should build a culture where we [49:10] say, "Oh, we got through the cracks." [49:11] Not like we have an open door. There's a [49:13] big difference between an open door and [49:14] he fell through the cracks. [49:19] Sunday night's message I thought was [49:20] good is inappropriately placed in the [49:23] wrong context and sent the message. They [49:25] cared more about the leader than I did [49:26] the victim. I I just you know I say this [49:29] for people who don't know me because [49:30] this is probably going all over the [49:31] place. [49:32] >> It wasn't good. Sorry Chris. [49:34] >> I grew up in a very violent home. [49:37] I was 8 years old. I remember my mom [49:39] being beaten and I left that house with [49:41] a huge heart for every victim. I've had [49:44] two nervous breakdowns. One of them [49:45] mentally mental illness. I have a huge [49:48] compassion for people who have broken. [49:51] We spent five years with broken kids in [49:52] a non-Christian youth group. And I I [49:54] just want to point out like I didn't [49:56] extend my compassion to people, [50:00] but I have great compassion for people [50:01] who are broken. And I'm really sorry. [50:04] And it trills me so bad because I can't [50:05] imagine if one of my kids was on his [50:08] team or [50:10] got some great prophetic word and was [50:12] running their life after it and found [50:15] out later that that man was incredible. [50:17] I can't imagine how that would have [50:19] broke my heart. And for some reason that [50:22] idea that that's not our responsibility [50:25] dictated my actions. I'm deeply sorry. [50:28] I'd like to say it'll never happen [50:30] again. But I hold you too. I hold my [50:32] leadership team to like please don't [50:33] ever let me do that again. [50:36] Um, good. [50:39] I just want to say to the victims, super [50:41] sorry. It's it's not just a scripted [50:43] message. It's like deeply grieved. From [50:46] Monday on, haven't slept much. [50:50] When you have this much experience as a [50:52] leader and you get something that wrong, [50:55] you should be troubled. Yeah. Spent a [50:58] lot of time and our team has spent a lot [50:59] of time giving feedback. How do we get [51:01] it wrong? What was the value that was [51:03] misplaced? How do we change the culture? [51:05] How do we make sure that we don't just [51:06] fix this or say we're sorry, but how do [51:09] we make sure that we build a culture [51:10] that 20 years from now, this is not this [51:12] is not okay. No one's going to ever say, [51:14] "Well, that's not our responsibility [51:16] ever again." And I promise you from this [51:17] day forward, no one will ever say that [51:18] in this house again. That guy we put on [51:20] the platform, not our responsibility. We [51:23] learn to be more vigilant. We have a lot [51:25] to learn. This is for me. This is the [51:27] first week of a journey [51:29] that I've never been here before and how [51:33] we navigate a global movement in a 21st [51:36] century. It's got to be possible and [51:38] it's definitely got to be way better [51:40] than we've done. And prayerfully a lot [51:42] of other leaders will learn from our [51:43] mistakes. And prayerfully we don't just [51:45] get well. carefully the body of Christ [51:50] becomes the safe godly place for our [51:53] children, for people to get well, for [51:56] leaders to get well, for victims to get [51:58] healed without [52:02] creating a huge mess. Please forgive me. [52:07] I understand that your trust for me is [52:08] broken. I know for some of you that will [52:11] take time to heal. I'm very sorry. I do [52:13] give you my word that we will move to [52:15] maturity in this. Um, Bill's going to [52:18] speak now. God bless you. Thank you so [52:19] much for listening. [52:21] >> So, I'll just maybe close off this [52:24] video. I don't have a whole lot of [52:25] commentary on that until we watch the [52:26] bill video. Um, just to say that I I [52:30] Miller mentioned it a moment ago. I [52:31] think either he watched it or some [52:33] people have taken some diligent notes [52:35] and presented them to him because he he [52:37] touched on so many things that we [52:39] touched on. Um he he mentioned the fact [52:42] that uh hey this wasn't sensit this was [52:45] sensitive and it was insensitive towards [52:48] the the victims. Uh what if my kid was [52:50] on Shawn Bulls's team? What if my kid [52:53] got a prophetic word? Um you know what [52:55] about this thing with Jezebel? Um you [52:58] know here's this thing about data [52:59] mining. Like I over and over he kind of [53:01] fell on his own sword but he mentioned a [53:02] lot of the things that we mentioned in [53:03] our video. Um I'm I'm super thankful. [53:07] Um, you know, when Miller is pleading [53:09] with folks at Bethl, and they mention [53:11] this, Dan uh fairly mentions this in his [53:15] prior video, the very beginning of this, [53:17] he goes, "Hey, uh, I'm I just want to be [53:19] thankful to the alumni." They said they [53:21] had like 18,000 alumni all over the [53:24] world doing ministry, and the Facebook [53:25] alumni page has really held their feet [53:28] to the fire. Um, so I just I I want to [53:31] thank people who are out there who did [53:32] that. Like, look, I understand you might [53:35] have been labeled um, you know, a [53:37] zealot. You might have been labeled, you [53:39] know, a person who's bitter. You might [53:41] have been labeled a person who just, you [53:43] know, is out for blood and trying to [53:45] quench the spirit and, you know, trying [53:46] to touch the Lord's anointed and all [53:48] those things. U, for all those people [53:50] who, man, you tried, you you chipped [53:52] away at this. Um, I think that it did [53:55] something. I just want to I want to [53:56] thank you for that. Yes. Um, and I want [53:59] to champion you guys because as much as [54:01] I'm thankful that Chris has done this, I [54:03] realize it took a village in the [54:05] situation, um, to see this person's [54:07] heart changed. And, uh, I just want to [54:10] thank even the maybe not the executive [54:12] leadership team that was formerly there, [54:14] but maybe some of those younger leaders [54:16] who are working alongside them. That's [54:18] not an agism claim. I'd rather have [54:20] ancient leaders ruling the church than I [54:21] would younger leaders. That's just [54:23] personal preference here. But if some of [54:25] those younger guys, it sounds like have [54:27] played a role in saying, "Hey, this is [54:29] what um trauma-informed kind of work [54:32] looks like." It sounds as if maybe they [54:34] uh were uh intentional in in giving good [54:37] and godly feedback to their leadership [54:38] team. So, I want to thank them for that [54:40] as well. Um Miller, you got you got some [54:43] thoughts before we watch Bill? Yeah, I [54:46] we've talked about this privately and [54:48] we've uh I don't know if we've ever [54:50] stated it publicly, but there does seem [54:52] to be, again, this is an agism, but [54:55] there does seem to be sort of an old [54:56] guard mentality that is dying away and [54:59] getting exposed. The old guard mentality [55:01] says you never publicly expose sin. Um I [55:06] think they just realized that that old [55:08] guard mentality is what needs to die. Um [55:11] I think that was the beginning of it. I [55:13] I think he said, "We're on a journey. I [55:15] hope others will learn from us in this [55:17] journey." I hope so, too, man. I [55:19] genuinely do. I know some other churches [55:21] that their messages in response to [55:24] allegations looked a lot like your [55:26] message last Sunday. Um, and it wasn't [55:30] good. Um, uh, and I'm glad to see hear [55:33] you say that you're on a journey and [55:35] you're committed to that journey. Uh, [55:39] uh, you also said you were asking a lot [55:40] of questions. you weren't able to sleep. [55:42] Um because one of the questions you're [55:44] asking is what was the misplaced value. [55:46] Um I'm going to throw out some ideas. Uh [55:51] this is me just telling you as as [55:53] somebody I can't I don't know if you're [55:55] going to listen to me or anybody else, [55:56] but but Bethl alumni maybe you're the [55:59] ones who listened and you brought this [56:00] to him. So maybe you could do that [56:02] again. Um I think one of the underlying [56:05] values, you hear this a lot. Uh well, we [56:08] just want to believe the best about [56:09] them. [56:11] Um, believing the best about Shawn led [56:15] to more people being harmed. Now, it is [56:18] true that love believes all things. It's [56:20] a scriptural value, but when it's [56:22] untethered from the rest of scripture, [56:24] it can be a vice as well. Um, because [56:28] not only are we supposed to be innocent [56:30] as a dove, we're also supposed to be [56:32] shrewd as a serpent. [56:34] And I think your culture of honor causes [56:37] you in some ways to approach things very [56:40] naively and throws out the shrewd as a [56:43] serpent. And one of the evidences of [56:45] this was at the very end of your your [56:48] message uh Chris's message last Sunday [56:51] was the two commentators at the very [56:53] end. They couldn't see it at all. All [56:56] they had to say were positive things. [56:58] And I think Bethl's value of only saying [57:01] positive things, only pointing out the [57:04] good and never the bad out of fear of [57:05] grieving or quenching the spirit, dude, [57:08] that's bad. Um, it it removes the [57:11] ability for people to think critically [57:13] about what's being said. Um, discernment [57:17] really does mean evaluating uh what is [57:19] being taught through the scriptures. And [57:23] like it or not, that culture of honor [57:25] value can actually do the opposite of [57:27] promoting true critical thinking skills [57:29] and discernment. It leads people to be [57:33] taken advantage of by guys like Shawn [57:35] Bulls, Kenneth Copeland, uh others. [57:39] So, um there's there's more I could say [57:42] on the culture of honor thing, but that [57:43] that whole believe the best um it ends [57:46] up for victims of spiritual abuse. Let [57:49] me just put it this way. Victims come to [57:51] somebody and they say, "This person did [57:53] this to me." Well, I want you just to [57:56] believe the best. You know, believe the [57:58] best that God is going to change their [57:59] heart. That, you know, he who began a [58:00] good work in them is going to finish it [58:02] to completion. Just, you know, you got [58:03] to believe the best. What you just did [58:06] to that victim was said, "Your pain [58:08] doesn't matter enough for me to [58:10] investigate it or do something about [58:12] it." That's the subtle message that's [58:14] given there. You don't just believe the [58:16] best. Uh, you also have to be innocent [58:19] as a dove and shrewd as a serpent. And [58:22] when I hear stories that are really [58:24] egregious, I don't just tell that person [58:26] to believe the best. I step into their [58:28] pain and say that was wrong. And you [58:31] also have to believe the best about the [58:33] victim who brought that forward. And [58:35] what I often hear most of the time is [58:37] not believing the best about the victim, [58:38] but rather an accusation of that victim [58:40] is bitter and wounded and hard to deal [58:42] with. [58:44] There's a reason they're bitter and [58:45] wounded and hard to deal with. Even if [58:47] that's true, there's a reason. The [58:49] reason was somebody hurt them and that [58:51] person who hurt them needs to be held [58:52] accountable. So, um, that's a Sorry, I [58:56] just monologued a long time ago. [58:57] >> No, it's okay. It's okay. Let me let me [58:59] let me tackle that statement you made [59:00] with the old guard. Some people might [59:02] hear that and think, oh, again, it's an [59:04] aegist claim about old people versus [59:06] >> it's not an agist claim at all. Miller [59:08] is clearly talking about the charismatic [59:11] movement and an older guard of [59:13] charismatic leaders who uh have that [59:15] don't touch the Lord's anointed vibe to [59:17] them who are like, "Hey, we've got to [59:19] protect the the man of power for the [59:21] hour." And whereas, you know, [59:23] >> we got to protect the move of God. [59:25] >> Yeah. We've got to protect the move of [59:26] God. We got to protect the movement. We [59:27] got to protect the image, whatever. [59:29] Whereas, you know, some of the younger [59:31] car charismatic leaders, uh, I don't [59:33] even know if I want to say charismatic [59:35] leaders. I think it's just a younger [59:36] thing about this generation. They want [59:38] truth. They don't trust institutions. [59:40] They don't trust the government. They [59:42] don't trust big pharma. They don't trust [59:43] they just don't trust. And this idea [59:46] that we're going to turn a blind eye to [59:47] someone's sin and corruption um in the [59:51] church. If they're not willing to [59:52] tolerate it in the world, they're [59:53] certainly not going to tolerate it here [59:54] in the church. And I think that uh they [59:58] are that that that is a generational [59:59] thing that is different. And I do think [60:02] that there have been very very good [60:04] Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, [60:05] Methodist, you know, Anglican, you know, [60:08] churches who are willing to call out [60:09] their own. And I'm not saying that [60:11] there's never been a Pentecostal or [60:12] charismatic church who's ever called out [60:13] their own because again, it's clear that [60:15] that's happened. However, there has been [60:17] a trajectory. We've heard the war [60:20] stories from our forefathers, if you [60:21] will, of of charismatic leaders [60:23] willfully turning a blind eye. When [60:25] Miller's talking about the old guard, he [60:27] is, yes, talking about older folks, but [60:29] specifically within a a certain kind of [60:31] theological framework. Um, so I hope [60:34] that makes sense to everybody. Okay, [60:36] let's watch this next clip from Bill. [60:37] It's about 7 minutes. I don't think we [60:38] have to stop it. Uh, maybe we stop at [60:40] once, but we should be able to get [60:41] through this pretty quickly. [60:46] >> Um, Chris uh [60:48] very nobly takes all the responsibility [60:51] and really comes back to me, you know. [60:55] both Christian and Danny were much more [60:57] willing to pursue u bringing correction [61:01] not just the initial correction but [61:02] actually walking through long term um [61:04] this whole journey and I was the part of [61:07] the process that slowed it down um you [61:09] know sometimes your strongest trait [61:11] becomes your weakest trait and one of [61:13] the things I do well is I believe in [61:14] people when they don't deserve it but it [61:16] can move into what some have called [61:17] unsanctified mercy and that's actually [61:20] what I what I did I became so not [61:22] impressed with the gift I I don't I [61:24] don't do gifts over character, but I [61:26] became so um committed to to seeing Sean [61:31] protected and coming to a place of [61:32] health. And that I I I just was foolish. [61:35] And how it started is I I believed um I [61:38] I didn't believe the allegations were [61:40] true. Initially, I think probably all of [61:41] us wondered, man, this can't be true. We [61:43] love this guy. We spent time with him. [61:44] He spent time here. But but over a [61:46] period of time, it became obviously [61:47] true. I became blind to it because my my [61:49] loyalty to him as a as a friend, as [61:51] somebody who had ministered deeply to [61:52] me, as Chris mentioned to him and so [61:54] many people authentically, you know, we [61:55] became blind to the fact I became blind [61:57] to the fact that there was a real issue [61:58] that needed to be addressed. I'm [62:00] completely blind to it. I mean, I see it [62:01] now. It's embarrassing to to to see what [62:04] was right in front of you all all the [62:06] time. And I I were surrounded by such a [62:08] an incredible group of leaders and team. [62:11] Uh phenomenal discernment. I on a number [62:13] of occasions I've come to Chris, I'll [62:15] ask him a question, you know, how do you [62:16] see the situation? I trust your [62:17] perspective more than mine. And there [62:18] are just times where you just trust in [62:19] other people's get more than your own. [62:20] But this was an occasion when I didn't [62:21] do that and should have because I I [62:23] easily could have seen through their [62:24] eyes, through their heart, through their [62:25] discernment, something that was really [62:27] really obvious, as obvious as the nose [62:29] on your face. I I didn't say I missed [62:31] it. I missed it because, you know, just [62:34] not wanting to believe something that [62:35] that that could be true. And and it was. [62:38] And as a result of my slowing the [62:41] process down, I just affected more and [62:43] more people. More and more uh injuries [62:46] took place in through the prophetic and [62:48] through his own teams where where people [62:49] were uh traumatized over some of the uh [62:52] sexual uh issues. Um just horrible sad [62:55] sad sad stuff. And I spent time with one [62:57] individual that I know and and we [62:59] actually had a real I felt a really [63:01] honoring time going both ways. I I he [63:03] was calling out for help. he was [63:05] expressing the pain of his own journey [63:06] and the trauma that he had faced being [63:08] on on that staff and uh we had a a [63:11] really good time of connection and I was [63:13] so thankful for it. What followed, [63:15] however, is I did I was invited to do an [63:18] interview on TBN, which I agreed to do [63:20] and found out it was uh to promote Sean [63:23] and his book and I went through with it. [63:25] And so, if you can imagine making a [63:26] heartfelt connection with somebody and [63:28] uh lending support for their healing and [63:30] then a week, a month, three months, [63:31] whatever it was, I I don't recall now, [63:33] let's just say two months later, [63:34] endorsing the very guy that he just [63:36] brought a report to me on. And uh it was [63:37] just a slap in the face to this young [63:39] man. And it was it was just such a [63:41] horrible misjudgment on my part. This is [63:43] absolutely foolish. I followed up. We [63:45] spent more time together a couple hours [63:46] and to be frank, he he helped me in a [63:48] kind way to see how foolish my my [63:51] decision was and the effect that it had [63:52] on him. And I know if it affected him [63:54] that way, then there's countless of [63:55] others that it also affected. And I am [63:57] so so so so sorry. [64:07] Some things are inexcusable. [64:10] I'm just glad they're not unforgivable. [64:14] I uh several weak parts of my own the [64:17] way I function. [64:19] >> I want to pause it there. I'm sorry. I [64:21] know I said I was going to try not to. [64:23] Um [64:24] >> I know. [64:25] >> Couple things important. We kind of all [64:27] suspected that Chris was kind of falling [64:30] in line here. Um because he was making [64:34] these private statements, distancing [64:36] himself from Chris. And then we had in [64:39] 23 uh Bill making the public statement [64:42] about um you know Sean's character um [64:45] and you know the statement that was on [64:48] TBN. I want to be very clear it was not [64:50] uh hey you should buy this book. It was [64:52] this book looks like what heaven is on [64:55] earth that it would look like this book [64:57] and when you know the character of the [64:59] person who wrote it. [65:02] So, you've got Chris over here looking [65:04] like he's distancing and Bill over here [65:06] endorsing full-fledged. Uh, I think we [65:08] all suspected, uh, I wonder if this is [65:10] really Chris's fault here, uh, if he's [65:12] not just honoring Pastor Emmeritus, Bill [65:15] Johnson. And [65:16] >> rephrase that. What degree of [65:18] responsibility is Chris's? [65:20] >> Correct. Correct. We uh because again, [65:23] we we have to do what's right no matter [65:26] who is in charge over us. Um, and kind [65:28] of let consequences be, you know, what [65:31] they are. Uh, so I I think that it was [65:34] good for Bill to own this. I'm thankful [65:36] for that. Um, strengths becoming [65:38] weaknesses. Uh, that sounds like culture [65:41] of honor nonsense. Again, um, when you [65:43] look at that book, it it breaks apart [65:45] apostles, prophets, evangelists, [65:47] pastors, and teachers. It makes the [65:48] teachers like the the discernment and [65:50] division dividers of the body of Christ. [65:53] Like they're just they're just there to [65:54] complain about doctrine. Um, you know, [65:56] it talks about the prophet and their [65:57] their their responsibility and role and [65:59] it divides these [66:02] gifts which aren't psych psychology [66:04] profiles. They're they're spiritual [66:06] empowerments to the church and it it [66:08] divides them into like strengths and [66:10] weaknesses. I I don't care for it, but [66:12] you know, it is what it is. So, I see [66:13] that there. Um, loyalty loyalty to a [66:16] friend willfully blinded me. Okay. Yep. [66:19] I'm glad that you admit that and can [66:20] confess that. That's good. I'm thankful [66:22] for that. I I do think the TBN [66:24] repentance [66:26] is not sufficient. And I'm I'm not [66:27] asking him to get back up on next Sunday [66:29] and do it again, but but I hope you hear [66:31] me here. He's saying this is horrible [66:33] misjudgment. There are two things that [66:35] are taking place. One is that you're [66:38] lying or two is that you actually [66:42] believed he had good character knowing [66:43] all those things were taking place. So [66:45] one on 2023 you got up and lied in front [66:48] of an international audience and said, [66:51] "This man has great character." When you [66:53] knew he didn't. Or two, you think a [66:55] person who has good character is a [66:57] person who does these deeply egregious [67:01] things to their staff members and steals [67:03] prophetic words from Facebook. Um, [67:07] either one does not look good. And I [67:09] don't know how you own that fully [67:11] without just stating it as fact. Like, [67:13] man, I lied. Or, and maybe he maybe he [67:17] did by saying, I was willfully loyal to [67:19] my I was willfully loyal to my friend [67:21] and became willfully blind. Maybe that [67:23] was it. Um, but like but I this is my [67:27] two cents, Michael. Correct me if I'm [67:29] wrong. I don't feel like that's just I [67:30] don't think that's a sufficient [67:33] confession repentance there. Um, that's [67:35] my two cents. [67:37] >> I mean, if there's something you're not [67:39] thinking of, I can't see it. Um [67:43] I mean he he knew people were being [67:45] sexually harassed [67:47] and says the character behind the man I [67:50] >> he had just had a man that was lying. [67:52] >> Yeah. He just sat with a man months [67:55] prior three four five let's make it six [67:57] months. Six months prior who is like [68:00] this guy pleasuring himself in front of [68:01] me. [68:03] >> This also tells us something else. Um, [68:05] when you're willing to lie publicly in [68:08] one place, where do you lie publicly? [68:12] Um, this is where self-disclosure bill [68:14] shows a sign of repentance. Um, he [68:18] didn't say the words I lied up there. [68:20] Uh, again, maybe there's something I'm [68:22] not thinking of. Gosh, I hope so. I hope [68:25] I'm wrong about that. Um, but one of the [68:29] things I've seen in so many of these [68:31] kinds in in very big churches once they [68:33] get a worldwide following is brand [68:36] protection. [68:38] And um, and that causes people to lie [68:41] publicly while privately saying [68:43] something entirely different. Mike [68:46] Winger said this. I he and I have had [68:48] some conversations where he's said this. [68:49] I don't know if he said this on his [68:51] podcast, but I think he's so right about [68:52] this. He said, "All of us have had so [68:55] many private conversations where people [68:56] will say things in private um about yes, [69:00] this is sin, yes, this is abuse, but [69:03] then they'll get up on a public stage [69:06] and share a platform with that person." [69:08] Um, your private statements mean nothing [69:11] if you can't say it publicly. I just [69:13] don't buy it. I I've I've learned that [69:16] the character of people is uh not [69:19] entirely proven behind the scenes when [69:22] there's no cost to what you have to say. [69:25] I have found that the character of a [69:26] person is really demonstrated when [69:28] there's a cost involved and you're [69:30] willing to do what it takes and pay that [69:31] cost. So, um I I can't help but wonder [69:36] what else has been glossed over. What [69:38] else did you [69:40] give a less than fully honest answer to [69:43] publicly? [69:45] Um, because I know for a fact that when [69:48] it came to the Todd Bentley situation, [69:51] Bill was absent. I know this because [69:53] Jack Deer flat out told me. Um, one of [69:56] the big fallouts that Jack and uh, Rick [70:00] Joiner had was over Todd Bentley. Jack [70:03] realized like none of you have talked to [70:05] his ex-wife. this guy isn't repentant. [70:08] And Bill was nowhere to be seen. And [70:10] Rick and Jack had this massive blowout [70:12] fight because Rick's like, "No, he's [70:14] restored. He's repentant." And Jack's [70:16] like, "There's been no investigation [70:17] done. There's been nobody like actually [70:19] fact-checking anything he says." So Jack [70:22] recused himself from the whole process, [70:24] saying, "I'm having nothing to do with [70:25] this. The man is unrepentant." And then [70:27] later on when he went to Bill, Bill just [70:30] said, "Oh, Jack, I figured you guys had [70:31] it handled." [70:33] man, [70:35] that's not that's not honest. That's not [70:38] like if you're going to bear the [70:39] responsibation [70:41] team, you've got to bear the [70:42] responsibility for it. So, Bill, I think [70:45] you have some more self-discovery and [70:48] self-disclosure to make. Um, again, I I [70:51] think there's real uh acknowledgement [70:55] here. I think there's real a willingness [70:57] to really own it. Um, I think there's [70:59] stuff. really hard to to have full [71:01] repentance when you don't see all of [71:03] your sin. And I think you're only [71:04] beginning to see it. Um, but that's I [71:07] get it. You're on a journey, too. So, I [71:09] I'm going to give you that benefit of [71:11] the doubt and hope that this journey [71:13] leads you to see these other areas of [71:15] fault. So [71:17] >> yeah, I feel really weird watching [71:18] someone's video where they're like [71:19] publicly repenting and like have some [71:21] serious egg on their face and you know [71:24] are deeply I mean humiliated is probably [71:26] the last emotion that I actually care [71:28] about but like deeply grieved like [71:30] sorrowful and then to be like oh this [71:32] isn't enough. You know what I mean? Uh [71:34] so like I feel I feel bad coming on the [71:36] tail end of this and going hey that that [71:37] wasn't good enough yet. Um I want to [71:40] call a ball on a strike here. thankful [71:42] that you publicly admitted, hey, it was [71:45] loyalty, willfully blind, I was ignorant [71:47] to this, it was extremely unwise. You're [71:49] right on all those things. Um, but but [71:52] the the level of endorsement you gave [71:54] him on that TB and interview is like you [71:58] said, it is inexcusable and I agree with [71:59] you, sir. Um, but I still think we need [72:02] to call a spade a spade there. And I [72:04] don't think it was just mis misjudgment, [72:06] a poor judgment. Um, it was it was worse [72:08] than that. Um, okay. Let's get back into [72:11] Bill's video here. [72:14] >> Um, [72:17] I I I do rally to people who are in [72:18] trouble. I rally to people that that and [72:20] I I give favor to people often times far [72:23] beyond what they deserve. And I don't [72:25] apologize for that because I think it's [72:26] a it's a proper way to do life and and [72:28] so I'm committed to that. But what I did [72:30] wrong was I did it at the expense of the [72:32] victims. In other words, I I showed [72:33] mercy in in one category that seriously [72:36] affected those [72:38] who shouldn't have been traumatized any [72:40] more than they were. And uh it was just [72:42] uh it was just it was just careless. It [72:44] was careless on my part. And obviously [72:46] it's not intentional. You don't think [72:47] through that stuff, but the fact that I [72:48] could be that careless and and work to [72:50] defend somebody who not defend anything [72:51] that he did that was wrong, just work to [72:53] see them restored, but in the effort to [72:54] do that to do it at the expense of those [72:57] who had really really suffered. And it's [72:59] there there's the trauma from the sexual [73:00] issues and there's the trauma from [73:02] misprophetic words and stuff that has [73:04] been uh promoted throughout our [73:06] movement. And uh and I'm I'm so sorry. I [73:08] actually I contributed to the trauma. I [73:11] contributed I I wasn't just there to [73:13] help bring healing as I thought I was, [73:16] but I actually contributed to the [73:18] trauma. [73:18] >> Good. Good job, Bill. [73:25] That's a horrible realization, you know, [73:27] to [73:28] >> Yeah. [73:29] >> to realize that that you're making [73:31] something worse. And my sometimes it's [73:34] your actions, sometimes it's the lack of [73:35] action. And I I have this horrible um [73:40] trait of just not confronting well. And [73:42] sometimes I'm just afraid of getting it [73:44] wrong, so I just avoid it all together. [73:46] And uh we've got a such an amazing team [73:48] that I have purposed to uh to be much [73:52] more eager to receive input on these [73:53] issues instead of just delay delay delay [73:55] which is what I'm I'm known for. And I I [73:58] just apologize to you for the effect on [74:00] your lives, your heart, your trust and [74:02] just the life of this family, this [74:03] movement uh because of delay and because [74:04] of avoiding avoiding confrontation, [74:06] avoiding conflict. And um [74:10] I [74:12] I I want to continue to grow in showing [74:15] appropriate mercy in situations, but it [74:17] really comes down to when there's we're [74:18] pursuing justice, it's got to be the [74:20] victim first. The priority has to be to [74:22] serve those who have been traumatized. [74:24] And and you know what? Sometimes it's [74:25] just really really painful to be [74:27] involved with people in trouble. I mean, [74:29] it's hard because often times they don't [74:31] need advice. They need somebody to [74:32] listen. They need somebody just to be [74:33] there. And um so I am repurposing my own [74:38] heart, my own. [74:38] >> They need someone [74:39] >> life. [74:41] >> They need someone to defend them, Bill. [74:43] That's what they need. They need [74:45] somebody to have their back and say, "I [74:47] believe you and I'll help." Yeah, that's [74:50] right. [74:51] >> To give much cleaner attention to the [74:53] victim as a priority and then the whole [74:55] church and then of course the [74:56] victimizer. We want to see healing and [74:58] restoration everywhere. But uh the [74:59] mandate really is to care for the [75:00] victim. And so please forgive me for [75:04] anything and everything I have said or [75:06] done that would put less value on [75:09] attending to the hurt and broken people. [75:11] It's just wrong. It's just wrong. My uh [75:13] my delay uh has caused so much [75:15] frustration in family and staff and uh [75:18] please forgive me. I I I promise to try [75:20] to learn better. I uh I I just I don't [75:23] do that well. But I'm I'm I'm praying [75:25] with your forgiveness and grace to to be [75:28] able to attend these things in a much [75:29] wiser way. The Lord has gifted us with a [75:32] brilliant team. And uh back when all [75:34] this started, it was just a few of us [75:36] trying to make decisions. And all of us [75:38] were under incredible pressure because [75:40] of all the stuff going on just in our [75:42] personal lives. And now we have such a a [75:45] brighter broader team to really help to [75:47] speak into these situations. So I pray [75:49] that with the wisdom of the whole group, [75:50] you know, that scripture says uh we have [75:52] the mind of Christ. doesn't say I have [75:55] the emphasis is is on the corporate that [75:56] together we have the mind of Christ and [75:58] so that is uh that is our pursuit that [76:00] is my commitment is that together for us [76:02] to hear from the Lord what to do [76:03] appropriately in given situations and I [76:05] do ask you the victims of the prophetic [76:07] any other sexual tension stuff that [76:09] could exist in your life please for us [76:10] as a leadership to to drop the ball as [76:12] we have and to increase the pressure and [76:14] the conflict in your own souls and uh I [76:16] just ask you forgive me and I do pray [76:18] that the Lord would would truly bring [76:20] healing to us as a movement healing to [76:21] us as a team healing to me as an [76:23] individual. Yeah. [76:29] Oh, please forgive me. [76:33] I'll say [76:36] with this video when I first watched it, [76:39] I I think by nature I'm critical. Like [76:44] if if you if you were to watch my [76:46] response to something right after I [76:48] watch it, I'm critical. If you give me a [76:50] day or two thinking over it, which is [76:52] why I should not do hot takes the second [76:54] things come out. I'm a little bit more [76:55] like I'm a little bit more like, "Okay, [76:57] let's get benefit of the doubt. Let's [76:59] think about this critically." Okay. But [77:01] like in the moment I when I watched that [77:02] video initially, I was like, "Chris, way [77:04] to freaking go." I watched Bill. I was [77:06] like, "I don't like this. This is" And [77:08] maybe it was because I don't think he [77:09] owned the TBN thing. I don't know. But I [77:11] was like, "This it doesn't seem to be as [77:13] like heartfelt. It doesn't seem to be as [77:15] connected." And then when I thought [77:16] about it, I was like, "Dude, they said [77:18] this was the third time they did this [77:20] that day." I was like, "Okay, pull the [77:23] stick out of your butt, Louis." Like [77:26] legitimately, like like I don't know if [77:28] you've ever preached three sermons, but [77:30] like trying to like I [77:33] dude [77:34] >> I can barely do two. Um so so I think I [77:38] think you know when it comes to like [77:39] Okay, I didn't like Does does it did it [77:41] feel as heartfelt? Maybe it did in the [77:43] first and second service, but the third [77:44] one was what was released and I [77:46] understand. Um, so you know, I want to [77:48] give I want to give uh grace there. Um, [77:53] okay. Any other thoughts on this, [77:54] Miller? [77:56] >> No, the last part was really good. Um, [77:59] again, I I keep thinking restitution. [78:00] I'm glad you asked for forgiveness, but [78:02] I also want you to ask, what can we do [78:04] to make it right to the victims? not [78:06] just to bring change about in your [78:08] organization systematically, but what [78:10] can I do to make it right to the victims [78:12] that I failed. Um, again, Sean is the [78:15] one who needs to pay the full [78:16] restitution, but you guys bear some [78:19] responsibility. And so, uh, what what [78:21] does it look like for you? And you know, [78:24] something Chris said that is actually [78:26] true that I I want to acknowledge as [78:28] well. I just had this thought. Um, there [78:31] were a lot of people that knew about [78:32] this, a lot of people that had the [78:34] evidence. It wasn't just Danny and uh [78:36] Chris. None of them said anything. They [78:38] all just distanced themselves. And so [78:40] when Chris says that he did more than [78:42] others were doing where he where Sean [78:44] had a platform, he's right. Um so hate [78:48] to say it, but the others out there that [78:49] that had the evidence, I I get like I [78:52] knew some things. I didn't have any [78:53] evidence. I didn't have the victims. [78:55] That wasn't until um after Joe Mark [78:58] Baker and uh Jeff Simons and the minor [79:00] profits released their data mining video [79:03] um then victims started coming forward [79:06] to Mike Winger with actual stories of [79:08] the sexual allegations and um so I I [79:11] knew this was forthcoming but again if [79:13] you don't have the evidence it's really [79:14] hard to make a public statement. You've [79:16] got to have the evidence to do so. Um [79:18] otherwise you're you're not doing a good [79:19] service to yourself or the people [79:20] listening. So I get that. Um, [79:24] others out there who did have the [79:25] evidence, who are you and why didn't she [79:27] say something? Um, I think Patricia [79:30] King, she had the evidence. She could [79:32] have said something. Her statement fell [79:34] very, very short to truth in reality. [79:37] Um, same thing with I mean there's more, [79:40] but um let's talk about this statement [79:43] of Danny Silk because this one feels a [79:47] lot like the um the sermon quote unquote [79:53] of Chris Valatin from last week. Um and [79:56] there I want you guys I'm going to frame [79:58] this a little bit or reframe it. This is [80:00] an email that he sent out today. Uh, let [80:03] me remind you that it was Danny who did [80:05] the investigation on the sexual [80:07] allegations and found him guilty. [80:11] >> Uh, you also didn't come forward. I get [80:14] that Bill was probably there holding you [80:17] back that you wanted to come forward, [80:18] but you have a responsibility even to [80:20] stand up to your leaders and do the [80:22] right thing when it cost you. Um, you [80:26] didn't. [80:27] Okay. But in this, I don't see an [80:30] apology coming from you. Um, guys, let's [80:33] let's read it and let's see if there is [80:37] any account of his own responsibility in [80:40] this. Um, a word from Danny Silk. This [80:43] past weekend, Bethl Church took a Oh, I [80:45] need to pull it up on my phone because I [80:47] can't read it. I've got my my own little [80:48] window there. Okay, there you go. Thank [80:50] you. Uh Bethl Church took a meaningful [80:52] and courageous step by publicly [80:53] addressing the circumstances surrounding [80:55] Shawn BS and the changes in his [80:56] relational connection with Bethl Church. [80:58] In a moment marked by humility and [80:59] honesty, Bill Johnson named the delay in [81:02] response and owned his own reluctance to [81:03] step into a difficult confrontation. [81:05] That level of cander matters. This [81:07] Sunday morning message from January [81:09] 25th, 2026 speaks directly to this [81:11] moment and can be found here. He clicks [81:13] a link there. Says, "What stood out most [81:15] was not simply uh what was said, but how [81:19] it was said. Bill's acknowledgement of [81:21] hesitation exposes a sobering truth [81:22] about leadership. Small, often unseen [81:25] character constraints can quietly expand [81:27] into something much larger. Leaders [81:29] don't just make decisions. They shape [81:30] emotional climates. Their fears, blind [81:33] spots, and delays can unintentionally [81:34] elevate anxiety, uncertainty, and [81:36] confusion throughout an entire [81:38] community. Culture is formed less by [81:40] stated values and more by patterned [81:42] behavior. When leaders are predictable [81:43] or when unpredictability itself becomes [81:45] the norm, it trains people what to [81:47] expect, what to fear, and what not to [81:48] challenge. Over time, these expectations [81:51] solidify into belief systems that feel [81:53] immovable. And when those belief systems [81:55] are finally questioned, the push back is [81:57] rarely about logic. It's about anxiety. [81:59] Change threatens safety, identity, and [82:01] belonging. This is why it's so important [82:03] to say clearly, "Reluctance to confront [82:06] is not the same as deception." Bill's [82:08] hesitation was not a cover up of [82:10] Shambul's actions. Okay, right there. [82:13] Let me read that again. Bill's [82:14] hesitation was not a cover up of Shawn [82:16] Bull's actions. It was result of the [82:19] deeper tangle, a web of shared beliefs, [82:21] fears, loyalties, leader leadership [82:24] dynamics that made clarity difficult and [82:26] unity elusive. Leaders were trying to [82:28] find a path forward that minimized [82:31] damage, protected people, preserved the [82:33] organization even as agreement remained [82:35] frustratingly out of reach. Let me pause [82:37] here on this letter. I want to respond [82:39] on this. [82:40] Um, [82:42] Danny, [82:44] you bear some responsibility here. [82:47] The people listening or reading this, [82:50] they don't need your wisdom. Uh, they [82:54] don't need your clarity. Uh, they don't [82:57] need your framing of it. They need your [82:59] apology and your sorrow over your own [83:02] part to play in failure. [83:05] Um, not only that, but you're wrong [83:07] here. Bill's hesitation. You say Bill's [83:10] hesitation was not a cover up of Shawn [83:12] Bull's actions. It was. [83:14] Now, this is where I said uh a week ago [83:17] when we did the video sort of talking [83:19] about Chris's response. We said you [83:22] failed to differentiate between action [83:24] and motivation or intent. Um that's what [83:28] you're doing here is you're failing to [83:30] differentiate between intent and action. [83:32] Um Bill might not have intended to cover [83:36] it up. His actions resulted in cover up. [83:42] That is what happened. [83:44] >> Also, it was failure to act covered it [83:46] up. [83:46] >> It was active cover up because because [83:48] he goes on TBN and says, "This guy has [83:50] great character." When he knew that was [83:52] not the case. That is the definition of [83:54] covering it up. [83:55] >> Well, that's I think that's my point is [83:58] Bill's not thinking to himself, "Oh, I'm [84:00] going to cover over this sin and make [84:01] sure nobody knows it or I'm trying to [84:03] hide something." Uh, we get that his [84:05] intent wasn't there. His action did that [84:09] de facto. Um you you you [84:14] actions themselves are what they are. [84:17] Your intent to commit those actions only [84:19] makes those sins more egregious. [84:23] So I understand what you're attempting [84:24] to do. You are not the person to be [84:28] bringing the clarity though because you [84:30] knew about it and you didn't say [84:32] something. What I need to hear from you [84:34] are the same words those guys just gave [84:36] from the stage. yesterday. I'm sorry and [84:38] I failed. We don't need the clarity from [84:42] you. You're the wrong person to be doing [84:44] this right now. Um it really is a [84:47] frustrating thing to me because honestly [84:48] I feel like you're posing yourself here [84:50] as the guru who really understands. Um [84:52] and I I guess somebody could be saying [84:53] that to me, but the problem is is I'm [84:56] not the one who failed those victims. Um [84:59] and so yeah, it it just this is this is [85:02] tonedeaf, man. You need to you need to [85:05] strike this back. You need to publicly [85:06] apologize not just for now your failure [85:09] to confront and stand up against Chris [85:11] and Bill um but also your tonedeafness [85:14] here in this message. You say let's [85:17] continue. Sorry. I'm angry about this. [85:19] I'm angry in the same way that I was [85:21] angry about it last week when I heard [85:23] Chris's message. Um so forgive me. Uh I [85:26] don't want to sit in my anger here, but [85:27] I I really this is not okay. Um you say [85:30] truth always carries a cost. Trust is [85:33] forged not in perfection but in [85:35] transparency. And transpar transparency [85:37] requires courage. [85:39] Dude, this is like you should be [85:41] preaching this yourself. Where was your [85:43] courage? From the outside, it's easy to [85:46] shout we should have and could have. But [85:47] anyone who has led a family, a marriage [85:49] or community knows that real solutions [85:51] must be worked out from within the [85:52] system, not imposed from a distance. [85:55] Okay. Wrong. Um, there's a reason why [85:58] marriages when they're in conflict, they [86:00] go outside because they don't know how [86:02] to solve it. They need somebody's [86:03] outside counsel. And right now, that's [86:05] exactly what just happened at Bethl [86:07] Church. Somebody from the outside had to [86:10] speak into this because the inside was [86:12] so blind to it. Um, clean answers are [86:15] rare when real people are involved. I [86:17] I'm just buddy, you don't see it. It [86:20] took a Mike Winger, somebody outside of [86:22] your camp to bring clarity to the issue. [86:25] It wasn't from within. Um, truth always [86:28] carries a cost. Yeah, the cost is there. [86:31] It may look different than your cost. [86:33] Um, but you didn't pay the cost. You're [86:35] now going to pay it. Um, again, this is [86:38] the same kind of encouragement that I [86:40] gave last week to all the Bethl students [86:41] out there and alumni. Don't let Chris [86:44] get away with this statement. Sorry, uh, [86:46] Danny get away with the statement. This [86:47] is wrong. Um, okay. I'm sorry. Let's [86:51] keep going. [86:54] Uh, this story does not need villains. [86:56] It needs wisdom. Uh, [86:59] there are no bad guys here. Only flawed [87:02] people navigating pressure. I'm [87:04] misunderstanding moments where fear [87:06] outweigh clarity. Wrong. Again, there is [87:08] a bad guy. His name is Sean. And I call [87:10] him a bad guy because he's unrepentant. [87:12] And when he's repentant, I'll feel [87:14] differently. Um, our calling as the body [87:16] of Christ is not to pile on, but to [87:18] love, protect, uphold one another. In [87:20] moments like this, we must resist the [87:22] urge to join a bandwagon against people [87:24] or places we have no relational cost in. [87:27] If criticism cost me nothing, I am most [87:29] almost certainly the wrong person to [87:31] wield it. Josh, what are your thoughts [87:33] on that statement? I know I'm doing a [87:35] lot of talking here, but [87:36] >> No, it's okay. I think I think it's a [87:39] load of crap. Um, a phrase you've told [87:41] me not to say online a couple of times. [87:43] Uh, I don't like it. Um I I think uh [87:47] Jeremiah was not part of the court [87:49] prophets who was falsely prophesying uh [87:51] when he corrected the false prophets for [87:54] falsely prophesying. I think John the [87:56] Baptist wasn't one of the Pharisees or [87:59] one of the Levitical priests within the [88:00] temple when he was calling all of Israel [88:02] to come and to repent of their sins. I [88:06] think Jesus was not a wider suppler full [88:08] of dead man's bones when he told the [88:10] Pharisees who were whited supplers full [88:12] of dead men's bones to repent. Um I [88:14] think uh Paul uh when he is telling the [88:17] church to repent of sexual immorality I [88:20] don't think he himself is participating [88:22] in that. So this idea that like you have [88:24] to be a part of the thing before you can [88:26] be the person resolving that thing. I [88:29] would actually say that people who are [88:31] not doing that thing may in fact [88:34] arguably be more apt to weigh into a [88:37] thing. So, if a husband is, you know, [88:40] beat beating his wife and then a couple [88:42] comes to him and is like, "Hey, um, we [88:45] have a problem here. Uh, you know, uh, [88:47] this guy keeps beating his wife. I don't [88:49] want a wife beater." Counseling a [88:51] couple, uh, who's getting beat at home. [88:53] That's a that's a dumb thing to do. And [88:55] right now, what we're acknowledging is [88:57] that there was clear cover up. There was [88:59] clear willful blindness to pretty [89:02] egregious sins uh that are blasphemy [89:04] level when it comes to taking the name [89:05] of the Lord uh for a prophecy that [89:07] you've cleaned off of Facebook or [89:09] pleasuring yourself inside of a hotel [89:11] room. It's certainly not blasphemous, [89:13] but it's certainly a high-handed sexual [89:14] immoral sin uh that God uh would want to [89:17] bring justice to. Uh and it to come to [89:19] this situation and be like, "Well, [89:21] you've really got to be on the inside to [89:22] handle it." Well, people on the inside [89:24] couldn't. People on the inside didn't [89:26] they wouldn't. It's just it's it's [89:28] blindly ignorant. [89:29] >> Well, what he's showing is this is the [89:31] exact value that got you into this [89:33] problem. [89:34] >> Correct. [89:35] >> You only had your inside circle that [89:36] you'd listen to. [89:38] >> This is why Mike Winger brought the [89:40] receipts because nobody would have [89:42] listened otherwise. They were programmed [89:44] to only see those on the inside as the [89:47] ones who can really, you know, see the [89:49] problems and and be the ones to evaluate [89:51] and fix the problems. Um, this is not [89:54] good, dude. It's like I don't know if [89:56] you have a PR person. Chris clearly [89:58] didn't when he gave that sermon [90:01] or message. Um but dude, I if I were [90:04] you, I would have run this through them [90:06] because they seem to have gotten a lot [90:07] farther along in this process of [90:09] repentance than you have. Danny, this is [90:11] bad. This is really bad. And again, [90:13] Danny, I think you've put to words in [90:15] your book, Unpunishable and Culture of [90:17] Honor, exactly what the values are that [90:20] got you guys into this mess. There are [90:22] some values there that are not good. Um, [90:24] you need to re-evaluate those values and [90:26] you're actually putting one of them on [90:28] display right now. Um, last week I said [90:31] that Chris's message gave you an insight [90:33] into the pathology of Chris, the way he [90:35] thinks about things. We are now seeing [90:37] the exact same thing with you, Danny. [90:39] Um, I'm really angry about this. Uh, [90:42] okay. I'm sorry. We'll we'll keep [90:43] reading. Let's let's finish this off. [90:48] Uh, [90:50] >> what we witness matters. [90:53] Go ahead. [90:54] >> Yeah. What we w what we witness matters. [90:56] Exposure while painful creates space for [90:57] healing. I genuinely love what just [90:59] happened and what it revealed. We will [91:01] adjust. We will learn. We will realign [91:03] our priorities with our values. We will [91:04] build a future we actually want to live [91:05] in. One marked by truth, accountability, [91:07] humility, and love. Um mistakes do not [91:10] define us. How we respond to them does. [91:15] These these words [91:17] >> say it again for the people in the back [91:18] on these. [91:20] It's like as they come out of your [91:22] mouth, do you not see [91:24] >> how how quite literally your response is [91:27] what's defining you here. [91:30] If we choose courage over comfort, [91:32] honesty over image, relationship over [91:35] reaction, this moment can become a [91:36] turning point, not just for Bethl, but [91:38] for all of us watching and learning. [91:39] Today, I'm very proud of my leaders and [91:40] the tribe I belong to. Today is not a [91:43] day to be proud. Today is a day to [91:45] grieve. [91:46] Um, I'm going to say this to everybody [91:49] out there because I know that this is [91:52] what everybody feels right now. A lot of [91:53] people are feeling pain at the pain that [91:55] those leaders are feeling. Guys, I am [91:58] super thankful for what they said, but [92:00] here is the problem. They're just [92:03] beginning. We really don't know how much [92:07] they will repent from. Um, a lot remains [92:10] to be seen. Um, it is not just your [92:13] words that matter, but your actions [92:15] following your words. So, I've mentioned [92:17] multiple multiple times the need for [92:18] restitution. Dude, I think this is a [92:21] great first step. I'm applauding them. I [92:23] am cheering for them. I want them to [92:25] move forward in the right direction. I [92:26] want their example of going forward in [92:28] the right direction to ring true for all [92:30] of the 72 countries that they reach and [92:32] those who follow them. Uh, but let's not [92:36] celebrate too quickly. We need to see [92:39] what happens. That's the truth. [92:41] >> That's right. And I think, you know, we [92:44] could do the same thing with the Todd [92:45] White video where it's like, I repent [92:47] for preaching a false gospel. We get [92:49] made a video that week and been like, [92:50] "Wow, we to go, Todd." And then 3 weeks [92:52] later been like, "Oh, I don't think [92:54] those words mean what he thinks they [92:55] mean when he said those words." Um, so [92:57] like, man, I'm willing to come out with [93:00] a video in two or three weeks if this [93:03] was just a bunch of virtue signaling. I [93:06] genuinely don't think it was. And um I [93:08] hope that if Chris watched that first [93:10] video, he can watch the second one and [93:12] and know that there are guys in his [93:14] corner really championing this kind of [93:16] repentance. Um [93:18] so I I I want to encourage him in that [93:20] and and keep it up, man. Um keep on [93:23] going because there's I like Miller [93:25] said, there's a lot more work to be [93:26] done. Um however, if this is a kind of [93:28] flip on its head sort of we're just [93:30] saying this, we're not actually going to [93:32] live this out. we'll do our best to uh [93:34] make the appropriate retractions if and [93:36] when necessary. But that's that's not my [93:39] hope. Um my hope is genuinely that uh [93:42] this sticks. Uh you know, I think maybe [93:45] the first time in a very long time a [93:47] piece of content where we were like, [93:49] "Hey, I'm critical of this. This is [93:51] really not okay." Actually produced some [93:53] really good fruit. And uh I hope that [93:56] videos like this can do the same. So um [93:59] I'm praying praying for that change in [94:01] the culture. Miller, any kind of closing [94:03] thoughts, buddy, before we sign off. [94:05] >> Just a last bit of thanks. Those of you [94:07] on the inside of Bethl, [94:10] >> you're the ones to credit. Now, we can [94:12] do a video. That's not that's not hard [94:14] to do. You guys are the ones who [94:16] actually started confronting your [94:17] leaders first on. You're the ones where [94:19] the relationship cost. So, I am very [94:21] thankful. Um, in that sense, Danny is [94:23] right. Uh, relation relational damage. [94:26] Um, it cost you to do that. I'm proud of [94:28] you for for sticking up to your leaders [94:30] and holding them accountable. um please [94:32] please continue to do so. Again, don't [94:33] celebrate too quickly. Encourage them to [94:36] follow through. Wait to see the actions [94:37] before you celebrate. Um hopefully in a [94:40] few years from now, you're going to see [94:42] some very different uh leaders and God [94:44] willing um a very different culture at [94:47] Bethl that has now propagated around the [94:49] world. U but that remains to be seen. We [94:52] have to see actions. We can't just look [94:54] at the words they they they give. Uh, we [94:56] all know a lot of good politicians out [94:57] there that say a lot of good things and [94:59] then don't follow through and do what [95:00] they say. So, I don't think that's the [95:02] case here. I really do think they are [95:04] going to fall through, but um, but I [95:06] can't celebrate just yet. Yeah. Well, [95:09] uh, guys, thank you so much for tuning [95:10] in to this episode. Uh, thankful we got [95:12] the opportunity to review it. I hope it [95:14] encourages your heart as much as it [95:16] encourages our heart. And, uh, yeah, [95:18] Bethl, we're praying for you. We hope [95:20] that this pattern continues. Um, and we [95:23] look forward to championing all of your [95:25] good and righteous decisions moving [95:27] forward as well. Uh, while willfully [95:29] calling strikes when the strikes appear. [95:31] So, balls and strikes, that's what we're [95:33] trying to call here. Uh, thank you so [95:34] much for tuning in to this program, [95:35] guys. We'll see you next time. Peace [95:36] out.