Dodgy Themes  ## Metadata - Author: [[Crossword]] - Full Title: Dodgy Themes - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/3ff7ece2-1850-40cf-865b-81177e6e0891 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **FAIR Shipments Signal Real Progress** - The FAIR project released a version 1.0 plugin that lets sites manage updates through a FAIR package manager mirror. - This represents the first tangible output from FAIR beyond governance and repositories. Transcript: Luke FAIR project, did you see released their version 1.0 plugin this week? Jonathan I did not. I was on their repository recently and noticed some activity, but I didn't see that it had culminated in a release. What does that mean? Luke It means that you can go to their GitHub and download the Fair plugin. They have a few other things to download there that I didn't really get a proper chance to look like. Look, through and you can install that into your WordPress site. And when you do that, it will change your WordPress updates to all be managed through the FAIR package manager. And so I don't know if it's 100% independence from WordPress.org or if it's just the plugins installs and updates. Jonathan Right. The overall updates, right? Like security releases, point releases, major releases. You think it's just the plugins or it sounds like you don't know yet. Yeah. Luke I don't know. Also, what about things like news and events? What about other things that, you know, are served from, like images even in the about screen that are served from WordPress.org? I don't think any of that's really covered, but suffice to say, if something happened to a host that caused WordPress.org to disconnect them, then they could install the Fair plugin As a must use plugin for all their websites. And that should basically fix the problem. Jonathan Interesting. Now, when the FAIR project was first announced, it was an announcement, there were repositories. I don't remember a sense that there was anything practical that you could do with it. It was more about like the governance and they had like an election. There was like this whole process. It sounds like this is the first time there's a tangible output from this effort. Is that fair to say? ([Time 0:00:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cadbe9fa-dd02-4a6a-a042-1168bccbc196)) - **FAIR Plugin Installation** - Download the FAIR plugin from their GitHub repository. - Install the FAIR plugin into your WordPress site. - Your WordPress updates will be managed through the FAIR package manager. Transcript: Jonathan I did not. I was on their repository recently and noticed some activity, but I didn't see that it had culminated in a release. What does that mean? Luke It means that you can go to their GitHub and download the Fair plugin. They have a few other things to download there that I didn't really get a proper chance to look like. Look, through and you can install that into your WordPress site. And ([Time 0:00:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fc35ce1d-0479-4dfb-80bd-42a8e682d37f)) - **FAIR Package Manager** - The FAIR project released their version 1.0 plugin, which allows users to manage WordPress updates through the FAIR package manager. - Installing the plugin will change your WordPress updates to be managed through FAIR instead of WordPress.org. - Luke is unsure if this offers 100% independence from WordPress.org or if it is limited to plugin installs and updates. - Other elements, such as news, events, and images served from WordPress.org might not be covered by the FAIR package manager. Transcript: Luke Means that you can go to their GitHub and download the Fair plugin. They have a few other things to download there that I didn't really get a proper chance to look like. Look, through and you can install that into your WordPress site. And when you do that, it will change your WordPress updates to all be managed through the FAIR package manager. And so I don't know if it's 100% independence from WordPress.org or if it's just the plugins installs and updates. Jonathan Right. The overall updates, right? Like security releases, point releases, major releases. You think it's just the plugins or it sounds like you don't know yet. Yeah. ([Time 0:00:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7d723a59-6282-45b6-a9a8-f562a4fa800a)) - **FAIR's Product Centric Approach** - Luke always felt that FAIR was very product-centered. - He likes that they had a clear scope, not just a generic committee. - WPCC is great, but its output is unclear. - FAIR came to the table with a GitHub repo from the beginning. - This tangible output shows that FAIR's approach is real. Transcript: Luke Just happened. Still, that was the challenge to not do it. I've always felt that FAIR was very product-centered. I remember talking about it when it was first announced and saying that I really like that they have a clear scope. It's not just some generic committee. WPCC is great, but what's the output? What's the output? And here we see that FAIR has got a, like they came to the table with a GitHub repo, right? ([Time 0:02:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9f198374-432c-481a-844c-6d44b54ba990)) - **Federation Is The Key Value** - FAIR is built as a federated aggregator that can combine multiple repositories into one index. - Its value grows as more independent repos are added beyond a single WordPress.org mirror. Transcript: Luke Where it's going to really get interesting with FAIR, though, is like at the moment, as far as I can tell, I went through and browsed through the FAIR plugin repo. And it's just a mirror. As far as I can tell, it's just a mirror of WordPress.org right now, which is fine. When it's going to start getting interesting is when there's a few additional repos that are included in this aggregation. Because the thing about the FAIR, the thing about FAIR in general is it's a federated repositories, right? Right. Federated. Not just one single source. Exactly. And so it, that means it aggregates from a variety of different sources all into the one place. So right now it's just one source as far as I can tell. ([Time 0:04:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/30da00a7-7c7c-4045-b2b5-755b1594967d)) - **Mirrors Today, Choices Tomorrow** - Right now the FAIR plugin largely mirrors WordPress.org, but it could diverge by hosting other repos. - The core question is whether authors will choose alternative repos or keep using WordPress.org. Transcript: Jonathan And the things that I'm, so the first thing I still remain confused on is like, are these at best just clones of.org? And these multiple repositories, is it about just reducing the dependence or is the intention to have plugin authors and others like, oh, I'm going to choose which ones I submit to. And if someone's using the FAIR plugin that they then have, or the infrastructure they have access to, all these places like aggregated. Luke Yeah, so you've got Aspire Cloud, which is, no, Aspire Press, whatever it is. I'm not fully across it, but there is a clone, a clone, a mirror of WordPress.org that, and that is one of the items, one of the layers of the aggregation, right? And then additional layers can be added in there. I'm looking forward to seeing what those other layers are. Jonathan Yeah. Well, and what I'm curious about, like.org has a plugins team. You're part of that team. There's a lot of work and effort that goes into vetting what comes through and then approving that. And at least so far, all that I'm understanding is really happening here is others are saying, hey, we're going to clone and benefit from all that effort, but put it up on our own infrastructure. So we'll bear the cost of serving these things. But, but I'm not seeing, but it sounds like it's more and more is intended than just that. But that, that to me is like one of the big questions is like, there's a lot of people behind.org. There's people creating this stuff right now, but where, where is it? Is it just going to be clones or is there going to be more to it than that? ([Time 0:05:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a276bfaa-459d-41d8-a4b4-454c50171d5c)) - **Reveal Repo Provenance Up Front** - Show the source repository for each plugin so users can judge trust and provenance. - Make repo provenance visible before install to preserve user confidence. Transcript: Luke Of the interesting things I did notice when I installed the Fair plugin was that the featured page in WordPress, you know, you go add plugins featured. It had what seemed to be a random assortment of various different plugins that were not the ones I expected to see, like Jetpack and Akismet. Some of them, you know, haven't been updated in a while or untested with this version of WordPress and, you know, like last updated 10 years ago. So I think it's random, but it is cheeky and I do like it. The thing that's missing right now, and it's okay that it's missing, is I would really like to know what repo am I installing this plugin from, right? Like, is this coming from the Aspire clone of.org or is this coming from, you know, I imagine Gravity Forms had its own contribution to the independent repos, right? This is coming from the Gravity Forms group. Or is this coming from WooCommerce group or whatever? ([Time 0:07:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bda2ca3e-a47c-4c8e-80cb-3d862951f5df)) - **Cheeky Random Featured Plugins** - Luke installed the FAIR plugin and saw a cheeky, unexpected assortment of featured plugins. - Some featured items appeared outdated or unmaintained, which he found amusing. Transcript: Luke Of the interesting things I did notice when I installed the Fair plugin was that the featured page in WordPress, you know, you go add plugins featured. It had what seemed to be a random assortment of various different plugins that were not the ones I expected to see, like Jetpack and Akismet. Some of them, you know, haven't been updated in a while or untested with this version of WordPress and, you know, like last updated 10 years ago. So I think it's random, but it is cheeky and I do like it. ([Time 0:07:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7b9e2b1a-abe5-4346-a22d-533c3d24a7aa)) - **Review Signals Won't Automatically Translate** - Reviews and other meta signals currently come from WordPress.org and may not map cleanly to other repos. - Each federated repo might need its own review system or clear linkage to existing signals. Transcript: Jonathan When we had the episode last season where Sam Sidler came on, who's involved, or at least last I understood was involved in the FAIR project. And one of the questions that I recall us discussing was, well, what do you do about reviews? And there's all this meta information and activity around a plugin that is, I think, useful signals in determining the level of confidence that should be associated with installing It or not. If I'm recalling correctly, he didn't give an answer and said that they were working on it, that they had like some good ideas in mind. So was there any, have you seen any references or updates to that, like the meta around these things? Luke I don't know anything about it really. The current reviews are being pulled from WordPress.org, which makes sense. And I guess each separate repo would have its own review system, potentially. Maybe that's one of the requirements. ([Time 0:08:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e4081e32-8a7a-412d-83a5-1aeaa2799b3b)) - **Give Hosts And Users Control Over Repos** - Allow hosts and users to enable or disable specific repos to control what plugins appear. - Provide controls so hosts can't silently push low-quality repos onto sites without consent. Transcript: Luke Like there's no reason why dodgythemes.com couldn't be part of it, right? Jonathan They could turn their act around and presumably part of what you would pick, part of what you would do is choose. And I think that's what's interesting to me is how much choice ends up being given to the end user and is that a positive or a negative? I can see reasons why hosts – Yeah, can I turn off gravity? Luke Yeah, exactly. Sorry, I'm talking over the top. It's not great podcasting. But I could turn off dodgythemes.com or my host could turn one or the other off or force their own one to be on and things like that. Jonathan What if dodgythemes.com goes to the host and pays the host to be the preferred repository? How do you feel about that? Yeah. Luke And then like, if we're messing with the featured plugins, then why shouldn't a host also mess with the featured plugins and put all of their plugins in on that top layer? Jonathan Right. I can appreciate the cheekiness of changing the featured plugins because whether you agree with them or not, it hasn't moved a lot in a long time. And there's a pretty clear correlation to Automatic's interest in many of them. But to just replace it with a random, to me is like a little, okay, that's a little bit meta, but like, where's the value to an end user? Like, really? Some random ones? ([Time 0:09:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d86c3065-8840-4024-97c7-f80525cd0a02)) - **Featured Lists Become A Monetization Vector** - Federated repos create incentives for hosts or vendors to promote their own plugins via featured lists. - That risks turning featured spots into paid placement unless governance or transparency exists. Transcript: Jonathan How do you feel about that? Yeah. Luke And then like, if we're messing with the featured plugins, then why shouldn't a host also mess with the featured plugins and put all of their plugins in on that top layer? Jonathan Right. I can appreciate the cheekiness of changing the featured plugins because whether you agree with them or not, it hasn't moved a lot in a long time. And there's a pretty clear correlation to Automatic's interest in many of them. But to just replace it with a random, to me is like a little, okay, that's a little bit meta, but like, where's the value to an end user? Like, really? Some random ones? That's right. Luke The value is the key there, right? Jonathan And then if you focus on value to the end user, who determines what's featured is I think the big question. And it makes sense to me that a host might do that, but I would then expect if Liquid Web is serving this up, then I would expect Stellar products to probably be the ones that are featured And so on and so forth. Luke This is the problem though, Jonathan, is like if I had an abstract layer, the right person to decide who is featured, I think, is WordPress.org. It's the project right? But the problem is they've abused that and we don't trust the people at WordPress.org, I'm just dancing around saying Matt Mullenweg, to, you know, have a fair and independent version Of featured plugins. So now that means that people are going to come in and mess with it. Right. Jonathan And part of the challenge is how would you assess whether those actions were fair? Like you can, you can, cause it can be argued a number of different ways, right? Luke Right. I, what I'm saying is we don't care about featured plugins being fair anymore. They've never been fair. So why do they have to be fair? Featured plugins, they should have some level of fairness from a project level. ([Time 0:10:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6b55b786-e423-4d1b-947b-b6ef6b53e7be)) - **Perception Affects Platform Relevance** - Perception matters: some argue WordPress lost cultural 'coolness' and needs to rethink appeal. - Reclaiming relevance may require product and community choices, not just technical changes. Transcript: Luke And maybe that is why WordPress isn't cool anymore. Did you see this blog post been making the rain rounds why wordpress lost the cool kids and how to win them back um i wait a minute does that mean we're not the cool kids anymore is that part Of it or were we i think that's that's what this blog post got wrong it we were never cool to begin with no it's a great post from Nick Hamzy. And I think it's well worth a read. Could be interesting to see. Can WordPress ever be cool again? Is it possible to win that back? ([Time 0:14:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b9311208-92bb-4b30-a596-0ceeb83a06c2))