Driving Predictable Recurring Revenue With Customer-Led Growth  ## Metadata - Author: [[Social Media Marketing Podcast]] - Full Title: Driving Predictable Recurring Revenue With Customer-Led Growth - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/c3f43aa3-aa92-4dde-a135-044162616339 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Center Growth On Customer Value** - Customer-led growth centers your strategy on delivering customer value rather than vanity metrics. - Align teams around customer success to reduce guessing and create predictable revenue. Transcript: Michael Stelzner A SaaS company. I'm very excited to dive in. But before we go there, I'd love to hear a little bit of your story. How did you get into marketing? Georgiana Laudi Well, I mean, the actual story of how I got into marketing, that's a great question, but that was an eternity ago. I studied communications in university and I just sort of got pulled towards the internet. So I never did traditional marketing. It was always online marketing. And I just sort of was pulled in that direction and I never kind of looked back. And then around, that was early 2000s. And then around 2010, actually it was about 2008, 2009, I discovered Twitter. And then Twitter pulled me into the local tech community. And then the local tech community really pulled me into SaaS. And then I was like, okay, this is where marketing has a really critical role to play because SaaS businesses understand the value of marketing post-acquisition and marketing's impact On revenue growth. I'm still talking about that to this day, but back then I was convinced that this was the place for me. I've never really looked back. I love SaaS and recurring revenue business models, partially for that reason. Now what I would describe what I do is much broader than marketing, but really the heart was really there. Michael Stelzner Tell us a little bit about Forget the Funnel because it's such an interesting headline. Georgiana Laudi Yeah, so it sort of came from working in tech, especially at the time where it was sort of born from was this sort of general disdain for marketing in tech. You know, not a lot of necessarily understanding or some unfair expectations or just unrealistic expectations of marketing sometimes by some tech founders, very product focused Founders, tech focused founders, really just not understanding marketing very well and really, you know, having unrealistic expectations. Also in marketing and a lot of customer facing teams really getting stuck in the weeds and being bogged down in the weeds of execution is another part of it. And then really the name comes from when you're in and running a recurring revenue business, the funnel has no role, right? The funnel is sort of meaningless. It's a lot more about, the story starts when somebody becomes a customer, it doesn't end there. And so there's this whole world to explore, you know, before, like in the problem space, all the way through to product adoption, product engagement, expansion, loyalty. So that's the reason for Forget the Fellow. Michael Stelzner I love it. And there's so many different kinds of businesses that are listening to this podcast today. We've got businesses like mine, where we have a membership or a conference, and there is like a recurring nature to the kinds of businesses that I do. And then of course, there's software companies that are listening. And of course, there's consumer based companies that are listening. There's people that have local businesses that care about recurring revenue. So the whole concept here, I think, is really fascinating. And the word that we kind of talked about when we were prepping for this show was customer led growth. That was kind of the phrase we came up with. So if marketers pay attention to this concept we're going to talk about, what is the upside? Because I do feel like there's something special here that we're about to unlock. Georgiana Laudi I'm glad you think so. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. And yes, very applicable. I would say that most businesses, most companies think of themselves as recurring revenue businesses, maybe not as directly as a software as a service company would, but subscription Model, any, you know, e-commerce too would think of themselves as recurring revenue. So this is very applicable across the board. And we did write a book about this process and we've, you know, even though we work mostly with B2B SaaS companies, I've heard from hundreds of people outside of that industry that really Have gotten a lot of value from customer-led growth, which is the framework that we unpack in this book. So what you get from customer-led growth, I mean, I almost don't know where to begin. But the biggest thing I would say, particularly for marketers, the main takeaway for marketers is a lot less guessing about what to do. Your strategy, your go-to strategy becomes much, much clearer. And you no longer have to operate in experimentation and hypothesis mode. You can make really well-informed decisions about what to do and how to grow. And the other really added huge benefit to customer-led growth is that it's also a framework that you share across functional departments in your company. And so marketing and CS and product and sales have a much more organized and sort of operationalized view of the customer experience and their role in it. And so it's not just to the benefit of marketing, that also helps sort of, you know, build a lot more bridges to your adjacent teams as well. Michael Stelzner Love it. OK, so there's some groundwork that we might want to cover here a little bit. Right. So before we get into how to do all this stuff that we're about to talk about, is there any kind of concepts or mindsets or any kind of like things we need to discuss before we get into this? Georgiana Laudi I mean, I would definitely say the biggest one is there being an agreement and alignment on the, you know, on the team that the customer should really be at the center of your growth strategy. I'm not saying that what that doesn't mean is everything the customer says is true and you should always follow customer feedback. That's not what I mean at all. But an agreement that if your customers are successful, you will be successful. As long as the team is in agreement on that, then customer-led growth will work for you because it is really about thinking about the customer as being the center of gravity, thinking About delivering customer value as being the center of gravity and operationalizing the way you build strategy, but also operationalizing your team around delivering that value To customers. So ([Time 0:04:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/48364e51-14eb-46a6-9f2e-e40c59d9cb6e)) - **Run Rapid Switch Interviews** - Interview 10–12 recent happiest customers to surface their 'jobs to be done' and reach pattern saturation. - Use short, focused switch interviews to capture fresh, usable insights within weeks. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi We can talk, you know, a little bit more about how we do that and how we recommend doing that. But having a really deep understanding of your ideal customers is obviously another critical input here. Michael Stelzner When we were prepping, you also mentioned that sometimes quantitative data, which marketers focus on, is sometimes not the right focus. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? What a time to pull that one in. Georgiana Laudi So yes, I completely agree. And I think that's, I mean, that's kind of what I was alluding to before when I was saying like operating and I, in experimentation mode, a lot of teams do that. And I can totally understand why it's actually part of why we started Forget the Funnel was this sort of need by a lot of go-to teams, particularly marketing, this need to prove that we Are doing something, prove that we are taking action and making progress. And sometimes the superficial quant sort of data can pull us in directions that just aren't helpful or that just lead to sort of scattershot strategy. We hear that a lot from the founders that reach out to us, like our team is great. I know they care a lot. They're super but the strategy feels scattershot. And a lot of the time that's because marketing teams are operating based on like quantitative, like what the data says to do before centering on who is it that we even serve? What do they care about? Not at a demographic or quantitative level, but at a qualitative psychographic level, like what motivates these customers. That's really where things need to start. And then you layer on the quantitative later. Quantitative is very, very important and the data is very important, but we really advocate for starting from a foundation of qualitative insight first in order to contextualize The quantitative. That was a lot of qual quant back and forth. Michael Stelzner Okay. So I think what I'm hearing you say is a couple of things. Number one, the non-negotiables that one should have if you are to adopt what we're about to share here is that the customer is at the center of the objective of growing, right? Like a deep understanding, which we're going to get into very shortly. In addition, if you're too focused on the wrong quantitative data, which is the things that are measurable, right? Like click-through rates and impressions and views and all that kind of stuff. It sounds like what I'm hearing you say is that can send you false signals that get you down rabbit trails that get you in trouble. Is that really what you're saying? Georgiana Laudi Yeah, it's just it's often a distraction. Not always. Again, if that foundational work has been done, then it can be great and it can layer on understanding. But nine times out of 10, that foundational level is not there. And if it is there, it's out of date and antiquated, especially now because the market is changing so, so quickly. So yeah, a lot of the time it's busy work. It's like activity does not equal progress. And that is kind of the mess that we sometimes get into. And I'm more and more, I'm describing this as strategic quicksand, especially right now. There's a lot of busy work and desperation to show activity because of all the things happening in the market, especially in tech. So it's just, it can be a bit of a mess. And I've heard from far too many folks in-house struggling with this. So it's a very real thing. Michael Stelzner That's a perfect transition into something you said multiple times, which is deeply understanding customers. I'm assuming that's where we begin. And if so, talk to me a little bit about this, a lot about this. I know you have a lot to say about this. Yeah. Georgiana Laudi I mean, what I will start with saying is that I understand that teams appetite for research is not always equal, right? Like some teams, some organizations have a bigger appetite for research than others. We generally operate on the assumption that there is not a big appetite for research and that research is a means to an end. And not, you know, a lot of people have had bad experiences with research, research that has led nowhere, research that has led to more questions than answers, research that gets dusty On a shelf, not effective research. It happens a lot. We've talked about that on our podcast before. It is people have mixed histories with research. For that, there's a couple of things. I don't tend to center everything we do around customer research, because really, at the end of the day, what we're looking for is genuine insight and genuine understanding into what Matters, the actual signal in all of that research that we do. But then also the really important part and why we exist, like our our reason for existence is making sure that research actually gets used and operationalized and leveraged and turned Into actual positive customer outcomes and revenue growth overall. So it's a means to an end. Now, I say all that to say that's one sort of side of the coin. The other side of the coin is we never advocate for more research than is absolutely necessary. And so when we do research, we do very rapid style, very laser targeted research, but it's laser targeted at the high level. And what I mean by that is we're looking for customers' jobs to be done. A lot of people have some familiarity with jobs to be done, but just the TLDR version of jobs to be done really is like deeply understanding what customers are trying to achieve, the progress They're looking to make with your solution. And so it means deeply understanding what's the context, you know, what's going on in their world when they're struggling with the old way. What is that moment that leads them to seek out something new? Once they decide, you know, that they have to have something new, what steps do they go through to evaluate potential options? Once they do find you on a short list, what is it about you that really convinces them to give it a try? What stands out to them? What convinces them to keep going? What demonstrates to them that you're going to help them solve that job to be done? And then ultimately, what can they do now that they weren't able to do before? So I'm very zoomed out at the 30,000 foot view. But if you can understand that sort of documentary under story of your customer, then you've got the answers that you need. Michael Stelzner Cool. I want to dig in here a little bit because when I asked, where do we begin? You started talking about research, but you did focus mostly on like people's maybe disdain, general dissatisfaction with research. But I think what you're really saying is we need to understand who our customers are, right? And not just any customers, but certain customers, right? So just get specific a little bit for everybody who's out here about the why behind this and a little bit of the how. And then we'll get into the jobs to be done because I feel like we just need to unpack this a little bit more. Georgiana Laudi Yeah, totally. So why is essentially, I have to talk about who first. And the who is really, really important here. So I mentioned before, we never advocate for big, long research projects. We're always looking to do really laser targeted research. And what we have found is the most ([Time 0:10:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c93b34e0-89f6-481d-a412-c4cd5155eab6)) - **Qualitative Before Quantitative** - Overreliance on superficial quantitative metrics can create strategic quicksand. - Start with qualitative psychographic insight to contextualize later quantitative analysis. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi And I can totally understand why it's actually part of why we started Forget the Funnel was this sort of need by a lot of go-to teams, particularly marketing, this need to prove that we Are doing something, prove that we are taking action and making progress. And sometimes the superficial quant sort of data can pull us in directions that just aren't helpful or that just lead to sort of scattershot strategy. We hear that a lot from the founders that reach out to us, like our team is great. I know they care a lot. They're super but the strategy feels scattershot. And a lot of the time that's because marketing teams are operating based on like quantitative, like what the data says to do before centering on who is it that we even serve? What do they care about? Not at a demographic or quantitative level, but at a qualitative psychographic level, like what motivates these customers. That's really where things need to start. And then you layer on the quantitative later. Quantitative is very, very important and the data is very important, but we really advocate for starting from a foundation of qualitative insight first in order to contextualize The quantitative. That was a lot of qual quant back and forth. Michael Stelzner Okay. So I think what I'm hearing you say is a couple of things. Number one, the non-negotiables that one should have if you are to adopt what we're about to share here is that the customer is at the center of the objective of growing, right? Like a deep understanding, which we're going to get into very shortly. In addition, if you're too focused on the wrong quantitative data, which is the things that are measurable, right? Like click-through rates and impressions and views and all that kind of stuff. It sounds like what I'm hearing you say is that can send you false signals that get you down rabbit trails that get you in trouble. Is that really what you're saying? Georgiana Laudi Yeah, it's just it's often a distraction. Not always. Again, if that foundational work has been done, then it can be great and it can layer on understanding. But nine times out of 10, that foundational level is not there. And if it is there, it's out of date and antiquated, especially now because the market is changing so, so quickly. So yeah, a lot of the time it's busy work. ([Time 0:10:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d0934156-1649-463e-95c2-c8e65cae6c67)) - **Prioritize One Job To Target** - Segment customers by job to be done and prioritize one job to move forward on. - Tailor messaging and pages to the prioritized job to improve conversion and revenue. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi Okay. Michael Stelzner So when we were prepping, you said that there was a scheduling tool that you've been working with that you could share a little bit about how that story went. Maybe there's a different one that's in top of your mind now. Georgiana Laudi Yeah, well, I'll just tell that one because it's an easy one to call back to, actually. So this is a team that we worked with not too long ago, and they're in the social media scheduling space. And they were like their growth had flatlined and they didn't really know what to do, but they were great at content marketing. And also their ads performed generally pretty well in terms of sign up, but revenue was flat. So they had steady signups, but again, revenue, there was nothing they could do that really influenced the revenue number. So they did what they do best. They did more content marketing, they ran more ads, but nothing was really moving the needle. When we started working with them, we ran through this exercise, like I just described to you, where we, you know, identified what was that subset of customers that were really, really Happy getting a ton of value and that's had signed up recently. And we had 10 to 12 conversations, I believe it was maybe even 10. I can't recall exactly. And what we found was there were two major groups of customers that showed up in their customer base that showed up at their front door, right? Those that were looking to grow their audience and the other that was looking to automate their processes and how they had been working. Michael Stelzner You call these jobs to be done, right? Is that what we're talking about? Okay. Yeah, exactly. Georgiana Laudi So the two main, I mean, there was a third one that showed up, but really these are the two dominant jobs to be done. And what was really interesting about that learning that these two different groups were showing up at the front door was that this team had been targeting both of these jobs to be done As if they were one individual for the history of the company. They just assumed that everybody showing up at the front door had both of these jobs to be done, but they didn't. They were actually two genuinely different groups of customers showing up at the front door. And so what we did was we went through the customer-led growth process, but I'll skip to the end where essentially we updated their messaging strategy to focus more on those automators. Because those looking to grow their audience were very vocal. They were definitely, they were the vocal majority. So it was very easy for the team to sort of index on that first group because they were the vocal majority. Michael Stelzner But they weren't the ones where the revenue was coming from probably, right? Georgiana Laudi Right. And in that second group, they were onboarding more quickly. They were not contacting CS. They were sort of flying in under the radar. Meanwhile, sticking around for the retention in that group was a lot higher as well. So this team had been conflating these two groups of customers under one banner for literally years. I think it had been five years and they'd never pulled these two apart. So when we split the messaging and really focused the messaging on that second group, and we updated three pages on the website, the homepage, the product page, and the pricing page. And with the just messaging changes, not even any really major design changes, just from a messaging standpoint, the conversion rate on the website increased 98%. But way more interesting than that was their trial to pay conversion rate increased 40%. And we didn't touch anything other than three pages on their website, which meant not only were there more people coming through the front door, but there were higher quality as well. And that was just from understanding these two different groups of customers showing ([Time 0:20:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d86bfbcb-51d6-4c64-a8ad-a5667a115d99)) - **Include The Problem Stage** - Customer experience maps must include the problem (struggle) stage, not just acquisition. - Map struggle, evaluation, and growth phases to find milestone gaps that block retention and expansion. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi So once we've gone through that customer experience, we are going to understand all of these sort of major leaps of faith in our customers' relationship with us. And what I mean by that is even the stage where our customers don't even know that we exist, but when they're experiencing the problem that we are going to help them solve. So the problem space, wildly important, way too many customer journey maps leave the problems stage out, which is, I think, a massive, massive oversight and really, really problematic. So there's the problem stage, and then we move all the way through to expansion and growth. Now, we tend to think of customer experience maps as being organized into three major phases, the struggle phase, where they're struggling with the old way, the evaluation phase, Which you can deduce, I'm sure, that is them evaluating the solution and then ultimately deciding that it is going to solve their job to be done. Then there's the growth phase, which, again, recurring revenue businesses, they live and die in this growth phase, right? So, acquiring somebody as a customer is the beginning of the story So the growth phase is really about ongoing value being delivered, ongoing engagement, but also expanding on that Value. And so there's a lot to talk about in the growth phase. We don't nearly enough get to talk about the growth phase because everybody's so hell bent on acquisition. Marketing, by the way, has a role to play across this entire customer experience. But basically our job is to figure out in those three phases, what are the major milestones in our customers' relationship with us where they need to experience value in order to continue To the next stage? And so we call that customer experience mapping. The number of milestones will completely depend on your solution, your customer, how complex either your customer is or your solution is. So, you know, we never say there's four stages or there's five or there's six or there's seven. You can't really think about it in that way. It's genuinely for you. So this is why this is another reason why we take issue with funnels because they're formulaic and generic. They don't actually reflect your customers or your experience. So that's the customer experience mapping process. ([Time 0:28:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/973cc097-8f5e-43e8-a171-eefbf059ad3e)) - **Measure Milestones, Not MQLs** - Define milestone KPIs that reflect customer value (first value, value realization, continued value). - Optimize each milestone with focused experiments rather than generic funnel metrics like MQLs. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi So I can talk through them at a high level. And then I would talk about how to optimize because you optimize at the milestone level, but you kind of know what the milestones are first. So we talk about the struggle phase. Generally, we're talking about two, maximum three milestones there where it's the problem space. Somebody's out in the world, they have the problem that you have, they're struggling with the old way. And then there's the interest stage where they go into active solution seeking mode and they discover that you exist. They may land on your website. Generally, I would say that interest stage ends when somebody either books a demo or attends a demo or signs up for your product for free or starts a trial. And then we move into evaluation mode. And evaluation mode, it is wildly important that we demonstrate value as quickly as possible. It doesn't obviously, it's not going to be full value, but we call it first value because we need to help people see value quickly enough that they don't abandon ship. Because I think there's a stat that's a 70% of people who sign up for a product log in once and never log it back in again. So it's really, really important that we demonstrate this like promise of value in the product as quickly as we possibly can. And there's a lot of different mechanisms to do that, but I digress. And then depending on the complexity of your product, in some cases, there's a, you know, a milestone in the middle, but I'm not, I'm going to skip over that one because the more most important One at the end of evaluation is what we call value realization. And that's when somebody has fully adopted your product and it's like, Eureka, this thing has solved my problem. I'm in, I'm going to invite my team. I'm firing the old way. I'm done with how I used to do it. This is me forever. I'm like, I'm a lifer now. And that is the end of the evaluation phase when we've like, quote unquote, solved their job to be done. Then in the growth phase, it is about delivering continued value. Generally, the growth phase looks similar across the teams that we've worked with. Sometimes it's a little bit more complex, but in general, it's continued value and value growth. In continued value, that's when you get to break out more of the toys in the toy box. So some of the more advanced features or adding additional team members or moving into adjacent teams potentially that would be in value expansion or value growth rather. And so that growth phase is where we start talking about net revenue retention. We're certainly talking about retention, but we're also talking about net revenue retention. And because we've operationalized the customer experience in this way, we have KPIs for each of those milestones. And that gives us a very measurable way to see what milestone, what stage in the customer experience is our customer so that if anybody falls out, we can be proactive in helping them get Back in. So we can either reach out to them or we can send them emails, but we'll know when they are at risk. And so for the continued value milestone, that would be a lot about like retention. Are they showing any signals of early attrition or churn that we can see and get ahead of to retain them and then value growth when we start thinking about upsell or moving them to annual Or moving into adjacent teams? Again, it's very product specific, but that's how generally the customer experience breaks down across those milestones. Once you have those milestones identified and the KPIs identified, you go back to that secret shopper experience, where you saw all of the ways that your customer experience is out Of alignment. Now you get to optimize for one KPI on each of those milestones. ([Time 0:32:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ea9fd94a-cfca-4420-ad60-b55f97dde8d9)) - **Simplify Onboarding To Deliver First Value** - Tailor onboarding to deliver the one thing customers care about most and remove distractions. - Delay exposing advanced features until customers realize core value. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi And we say like, is this a good way to demonstrate to the team that we've helped customers get from one milestone to the next? We unpack these milestones through a couple of different lenses, the thinking, feeling, doing, that's a bit of a detail, but it is really, really helpful to unpack it in that way to identify All the opportunities. Michael Stelzner Tell us a little bit about that. Georgiana Laudi Yeah. So the process that we go through really, because we understand that customer at that much deeper, more psychographic level, right? We're not talking about the transactional moments. We're talking about like, what was the progress they were looking to make? What actually motivated them to continue moving forward? And we really zero in on the things that they actually care about that actually matters. What we have found with teams over the many, many years that we have been doing this is we tend to throw the kitchen sink at our customers with a lot of stuff that they do not care about. That's why I mentioned that like when you reach the, you know, after value realization, when they reach continued value, that's when you can break out more of those toys in the toy box. ([Time 0:40:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/83207e2f-3952-409d-a224-74cd33922a19)) - **Secret-Shop The Customer Journey** - Secret-shop your end-to-end experience through the prioritized job's lens to find misalignments. - Use start/stop/continue to remove irrelevant touches and simplify onboarding. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi Yeah. So that's essentially the work of going through the customer experience through the lens of somebody with that job to be done. And it can be a tough, grueling experience, especially for teams who have recently updated their website or recently overhauled their onboarding or, you know, what have you, because All of these teams are working on this stuff actively. So it can be tough to go through this experience and then realize that, oh, I just spent six months on an email campaign that completely misses the mark. Like nobody wants to do that. Michael Stelzner So what are we looking for when we're actually doing the secret shopping? Yeah. Georgiana Laudi Yeah. So it definitely helps to be outside the jar when doing this type of work. It helps to be outside of the jar when doing the customer research as well, by the way. So it is a bit of an advantage. And obviously we have just a ton of diplomacy when we're communicating this stuff back to teams. But like, again, a lot of times we're just overwhelming our customers with a bunch of stuff that they care about a little bit instead of really zeroing in on the stuff that they care about A lot. And we're leaving money on the table, you know, filling a leaky bucket, whatever analogy you want. So that's a lot of what we're doing is basically identifying all of the ways our customer experience is out of alignment with what those customers actually really care about. We go through a start, stop, continue kind of activity where we're looking at the things like what is actually hurting your customer experience? What might be actually causing people to drop out that you just need to straight up stop doing? More often than not, it's something that they are doing but needs to be updated, especially with more mature teams that they've got programmatic comms in place. They've got email nurtures in place, product onboarding in place. A lot of the times we're making updates, largely simplifying product onboarding experiences, email campaigns, and things like that. And then there's the things that you genuinely need to start doing. So that might be, hey, you have more complex customers and they need a sales touch. They should, they need a call here to walk them through this process. Or, hey, your customers, they don't want to be on a sales call. Get out of their way. Just let them into the product. And this is the way to introduce the product. So sometimes we're telling teams that as well, that they can, they should introduce either like a self-serve product experience. Sometimes that happens a lot where customers are just like, I know exactly what I want. I don't want to get on a sales call. The sales call was almost a deterrent to signing up. A lot of times we're introducing flows like that, either in-app or email, or sometimes it's actually reorganizing the information architecture on a website, where a website is way Too complicated and talks about industry and vertical when everybody's showing up has the same job to be done and there's nothing really about solving that. So websites also, we tend to talk about websites a lot and the IA of a website and things that might be missing or things that just should be cut or things that need to be optimized. So again, we go through that start, stop, continue. And then for each of the milestones, we have a list of opportunities. ([Time 0:42:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3e19d498-3f30-4632-9949-3f1bdc2681f2)) - **Fix Messaging Then Onboarding** - First update messaging strategy across teams, then fix onboarding and website issues in that order. - Pause underperforming ad spending until you repair the customer experience foundation. Transcript: Georgiana Laudi That comes later. That would come after prioritization. Michael Stelzner Right. Assuming you prioritize the list, I mean, you would want to put it to the test, would you not? Yeah, exactly. Georgiana Laudi But there's some ways to do that that are more impactful than others. Like I wouldn't go into conversion rate optimization on a website. I would go to, we need to write a whole new messaging strategy. Michael Stelzner Like redesign the whole damn thing. Georgiana Laudi No, not redesign actually. Michael Stelzner Oh, the message strategy. No, I don't mean design as in. Georgiana Laudi Messaging is all, like every single team that we work with gets a messaging guide because every single team that we work with learns something new about their customer, focuses in on What they actually really care about. And so we develop a messaging strategy and deliver them a messaging guide. That messaging guide can do a lot of things. It can influence the website, obviously. It can influence customer onboarding. It can influence marketing campaigns. So first thing, messaging strategy always gets prioritized. After messaging strategy, then we would go to what part of the customer experience is actually causing the biggest, like the most damage. Nine times out of 10, it's the customer onboarding. I mean, the website obviously is a fast follow because oftentimes the website is writing checks that the customer experience can't cash. I mean, that happens a lot, but often we're focused on customer onboarding and making sure that those product fit customers are actually turning into paying customers. That's generally the most important thing. Also, actually, I will say sidebar, if you've got retention issues, retention is number one. So let me just assume that retention is healthy in this situation. Then it's customer onboarding. We're literally reverse engineering customer onboarding. And then it would be, again, depending on the size of your team, you might be able to do these things at the same time. ([Time 0:46:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b093d98b-03b9-447f-8043-2ff99b8e669d))