Email Segmentation: Getting More Sales With Less Traffic  ## Metadata - Author: [[Social Media Marketing Podcast]] - Full Title: Email Segmentation: Getting More Sales With Less Traffic - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/4c8ea3cd-9180-4686-bdbf-2287c2e9b458 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **From Teaching To Copywriting** - Chris started as a public school special-ed teacher and wrestling coach before discovering copywriting. - He earned his first copywriting fee of $300 in 2015 and scaled into high-profile clients and his email business. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski So I actually used to be a public school special ed teacher and a wrestling coach because when I was in college, I like didn't know what I wanted to do. And when people would ask me, like, what do you want to do? What are you going to major in? I'm like, I don't want to do anything. But obviously, that wasn't a viable career path. What I really meant was I didn't want to do a typical get dressed in a suit, go to New York City and have a commute and do that whole thing. And growing up, it was kind of like, well, that's kind of where all roads are kind of leading to. I didn't really ever know about entrepreneurship, you know, like didn't just cross my mind as an option, didn't know as a possibility. So went to school, got a job. I figured, you know, I was a division one wrestler. I was like, OK, I'll just, you know, coach wrestling and, you know, I guess I'll take a job as a teacher and just do that. Right. So I remember there was this one moment though, when, when you're a teacher, they give you the guidebook, right. For your contract. And in that it has the salary and they call it like steps. So like every year is a new step and it had all 39 steps laid out. And it was like, basically every dollar you're going to make over the course of the next 39 years. And like, I added it up and I was like, I don't know if I liked that number. I was like, you know, like it wasn't great. Right. And I was like, maybe I could do something else to make a lot more. And it's a tough job, especially, you know, special education. I was like, I don't know if I can do this for the next like 30, 40 years of my life. So I was like, okay, now I guess, you know, at the age of like 23, it's time to like really start figuring out like what we're actually going to do. So I had this mentor of mine, this guy, Zach Evan Esch. I used to train at his gym. It was like a, you know, semi-private strength conditioning gym. And he would sell like digital products online in addition to training in person. I've been, I started following him in like 2003 and, you know, was reading his stuff all through high school. I graduated in 07. And so there's like early days of the internet, like pre-click funnels, pre-everything, right? And I was so amazed when I would read the sales page. I didn't know there were sales pages at the time, but I remember like reading his sales pages for his products. And I was like, there's something going on in my brain when I read this that like makes me want to buy the product. And I was like, what is this? So I asked him, I was like, dude, what are you doing with these pages? And he goes, I don't know. I just, you know, I wrote a lot of articles, you know, I'm just a good writer. I was like, no, no, there's like something behind what you're doing here. And so I started kind of tumbling down the rabbit holes. Like maybe I could be like him and have my own digital products and stuff like that. So I started creating websites, trying to get some blogs off the ground. I had this one called Wrestling Coach Academy, which was like my first foray into, you know, internet businesses and started building that up and didn't really make any money with that. Ran that for about a year, but I had like a podcast. I was doing daily emails, list building. I was selling affiliate offers. I was doing like all the typical online business stuff. It was just a really bad market because those people don't buy, you know, $500 info products. But I discovered through that process, oh, there's this thing that I'm doing called copywriting where you write words and get people to buy stuff. And I was like, oh, that's what Zach was doing with those pages. And then I learned that there were people who called copywriters who essentially got paid thousands of dollars, sometimes more, to hand a client a document with words in it. And I was like, I could do that. I don't know how. I didn't know what went into that. But I was like, I bet I could figure this out. I bet if I spent the next year or so or two years figuring it out, I could get people to pay me. And I think it was May 2015, I got my first paying client. I got paid $300 to do an Amazon listing and some emails and product inserts and their website. And I was like, oh my gosh, someone paid me to write something. This is the most insane thing ever. So when I started going from zero to one was really hard. It took a long time. ([Time 0:02:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5620f55b-b430-4884-b2de-8d1a877ec95c)) - **Addressable Market Is A Small Slice** - The total addressable market for an offer is often a small sliver of your email list, not the whole list. - Segmenting lets you put the right offer in front of the right people and multiply revenue without more traffic. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski I mean, there's so many benefits. When I first started realizing the importance of this, you know, I've always known about segmentation, doing it for clients and things, but it really hit home when I had my own email List and I was selling my own offers. And I started realizing when I write certain things, certain people light up and others tune out. And when I launched certain products, the performance of those products, like for example, I launched this course one time to my list of 13,000 people and I got 119 sales. And I was like, why didn't I get more sales from that? I mean, it was a decent launch. It was 40K in sales. It was okay. But I was like, why wasn't it 100K? I was like, what's going on here? So I started looking under the hood and I was like, you know what? This offer really wasn't for everyone on my list. This was for a small segment. So I was kind of beating myself up over the performance of this offer. And it's like, well, the total addressable market is not in your entire email list. The total addressable market might actually be a very small sliver of people. So if you actually think about, you know, not just your entire email list, but like who all these pockets of people are who are on your list, you feel a bit better about yourself. That's the first thing because you're like, okay, this actually did well, given the context of how many people are actually interested in this offer. But then you start to realize, while you're running that offer, you could be running other offers to other segments and making two, three, five, 10 times as much money, because you're Putting the right offer in front of the right person at the right time. And that's where these things get really exciting, because a lot of this stuff can be automated. And a lot of this stuff can be used, where if you know, you know, every list has whales, right? There's minnows and there's whales. The whales are the people who buy your high ticket stuff. They buy often. They spend a lot of money when they do. They're a pleasure to work with, right? And then there's minnows. There's people who come in and they'll buy your ebook for 20 bucks or 10 bucks and they'll never buy anything else. And the way that you grow your business is by growing the number of whales. In order to grow your business by growing the number of whales, you need to find out who the whales are and how many whales you have. You need to find out where they came from and you'd find out what they interact with, what they want to buy, what their opinions are when you survey your list, because those opinions are More important than the minnows who never buy anything or buy very little. Because once you do that, that changes everything else in the business. That changes what you do for your lead magnets. That changes what you do for your front-end offers. That changes what you do for organic social content. That changes what you do for ads. It changes everything. Because first of all, you're not trying to build an email list. Excuse me, an email list. You're trying to build a buyer's list. And really, once you built the buyer list, then you're trying to build a whales list That is how you grow the business the fastest. ([Time 0:07:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/783556e8-f276-4476-88bb-495c91745115)) - **Emails Lose Platform Buyer Signals** - Social ad platforms know buyers through massive behavioral data that doesn't transfer to your email list. - Without segmentation, your email list arrives as anonymous addresses missing that rich intent data. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski And they're storing all that. And they're looking at other websites you're on and everything. So they know everything about you. That is why it is such an efficient machine for advertising because you can give your ads to Meta and it'll say, hey, we'll go find the buyers. We know who the buyers are. We'll go put your ads in front of the buyers if you're doing a conversion objective, for example. When you get that buyer or that email subscriber onto your list from Meta or from any social platform, none of that data comes along. So that's their moat. They're not going to just give that information to you freely. So now you have this email address or a first name and email address, and you don't really know anything about these people. You don't know what their pain points are. You don't know what they're interested in, what they're not interested in. ([Time 0:10:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dab9b4b7-7a9f-42d8-9ae1-200a3c8a52e3)) - **Start Segmentation With What You Know** - List what you already know about your audience and their recurring questions to design segments. - Use those insights to build a simple segmentation survey and backfill existing subscribers. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski Think the first step is you start to get a piece of paper and you start to list out anecdotal observations that you made about your audience. I'll use my own email list as an example. Anecdotally, what I've noticed is that there are a lot of people who are copywriters, freelancers, email marketers, service providers, people who do email marketing for a living. And they essentially take the stuff, the systems that I create, they say, okay, now I'm going to take this and sell as a service to a client, do it on their behalf. The other half of the people are people who own their own businesses or who have a job working in a bigger business. And they say, I need to learn email marketing so I can execute it for my company. So right off the bat, that's something I've noticed. And how have I noticed that? Well, I've done group coaching programs. I've had thousands of people reply to my emails. So I've had discussions. I've done little surveys over the years. So what that allows me to do, I start to generate, okay, here's some things that I know about some of the people on my list, at least the people that I've interacted with. I know that the people tend to fall into these type of buckets. What are the questions that people have asked me before? The reason you're thinking about this is because this is what's going to form the primary challenge that people are having. And that's one of the most important things that every brand can really figure out. When someone gets sent to your email list, are you asking them what's the primary challenge they're trying to solve? Because depending on that primary challenge, you could put people down very different paths. For example, with my email list, there's a small percentage of people. I mean, it's not insignificant, but it's three, four, 5% of people come in. They say deliverability is my number one challenge right now. Well, I have a program on deliverability. Should I put them into a program, or excuse me, an automation that sells them something on list growth? Probably not. I should probably put them into the automation that sells them the course on deliverability, obviously, right? But until you start doing this, you don't know. And everyone just goes down the conveyor belt and gets pelted with whatever emails you're sending. So you have an opportunity to think through, okay, what do people usually come to us? What are the questions they usually ask? What are the things that they're usually looking for? And that is what's going to allow you to start to build out some type of basic segmentation survey that you could take your list through, that all the new opt-ins can go through, that you Could start to back-populate some of that data from the existing subscribers. ([Time 0:11:49](https://share.snipd.com/snip/97501ec9-d117-48a8-8276-d3afc0c3e5e0)) - **Create A Ready-To-Buy Segment** - Ask qualifying questions like intent and timeframe (ASAP vs later) to create a 'ready-to-buy' segment. - Follow up more aggressively with hot leads so they don't buy from competitors. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski And the three questions are, I want to do it myself sometime in the future or ASAP. So what happens when you start collecting data on the people who want help ASAP? Well, can you follow up with them and close them a lot sooner than you ordinarily would have? Because maybe next month, you're going to do a pitch for your services. Well, you could automate a pitch right now to that person who says, hey, I need this solved right now. Right. So what do you need to know about the people on your list that's going to put them into the bucket of a good, hot, ready to buy lead or someone who is looking for a different solution or they Want to do it themselves in a B2B context? And obviously, depending on what you sell, this might change. But there's always questions that you could ask to say, what are the things that would qualify someone as a good ready to buy prospect? And how do I create a segment of those people so I can follow up a little bit more aggressively with those people and make sure that I can give them what they need? ([Time 0:14:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1e6204d5-396d-4d84-8d76-adc3325b9bfd)) - **Capture Answers With Tagging Tools** - Use a tool like RightMessage (or Typeform/trigger links) to collect answers and push tags/custom fields into your ESP. - Sync those fields to create inclusion/exclusion segments and trigger automations. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of ways you can do this. The tool that I like using is called WriteMessage. Brennan Dunn is the guy who created it, and it's an excellent tool. It integrates with like 11 different email platforms. It integrates with Kit, which is what I use. There's other ones out there. That's just the one that I like, and it's super powerful because it collects all this stuff. It pushes the data into ConvertKit, and it also pulls data from ConvertKit. So it kind of goes two ways. And it syncs everything up as custom fields within each individual subscriber's profile. So the creating segments is super easy. And then building animations off those segments is super easy. You could also use things like Typeform. You could, I mean, maybe even use something like Google Forms. Obviously, with some of these solutions, you might not have the ability to push the data into their profile. But RightMessage is ([Time 0:16:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fdfd1be7-b411-4e9c-8689-e43ede312f9a)) - **Use Trigger Links To Kick Off Intent Funnels** - Use trigger links inside emails to tag interest and start intent-driven automations only for clickers. - Follow up with high-converting evergreen sequences to those who showed interest. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski And usually what I'll do is every now and again, what I'll do like each month, I'll do this two or three times a month. I'll say like, hey, by the way, if you're interested in growing your list, like you should check out this program of mine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I will send that to all the people who have never been through the automation for that and the people who have never bought it. And so that'll cut down the total overall amount of people that I'm sending to. But I know the people who click on that link and say, oh, I'm interested in list growth. Now we know. And now we can create an interest segment and we can also put people into those automated sequences. And what's really cool when you do this is a lot of people say to me like, oh, I had this automation. I had this many subscribers coming in, but like the conversion percentage is so low. And the thing is, it's not that the conversion percentage is so low. It's just everyone's flowing into the one automation and it might not be the right thing for them. From 12 days to 50 days long, an email every single day, following up with just more info, more stories, more teaching about the product, teaching them little tips and things like that, Encouraging them to get in. I have courses that sell on Evergreen for anywhere from $10 up to $9.97. And why does that work? People are like, oh, $9.97, you can't sell something at that price point unless you do an open and a close and there's a deadline, there's urgency and blah, blah, blah. It's like, yes, you can if you're putting the right offer to the right person at the right time. Because what happens is people have inciting incidents in their lives, kind of like the hero's journey, right? It's like the call to adventure. Like something happens and they have the call to adventure and they say, oh my gosh, this just happened. I need to solve this new problem. I'm trying to become this person now because I realized this thing. And they go off on this hero's journey. When that happens, or if someone is kind of in that phase of their life and you send an email with a trigger link and they click on it because they're like, oh, this sounds like it could be For me. And you just keep following up until they buy. They tend to buy. I mean, not everyone. ([Time 0:17:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/beec7bdf-07d4-464d-959e-9fa0ae711687)) - **Dimensionalize Benefits To Shift Beliefs** - Buyers need belief shifts: explain their symptoms, the root cause, and why your solution works. - Dimensionalize benefits so prospects see how life changes after buying. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski I mean, it really comes down to a few things. Number one is, do they understand their problem and why they're experiencing the problem? And it's kind of like, well, you have these symptoms and here's the underlying cause of those symptoms. A lot of times people don't really take the time to unpack that in their email marketing. And I'll write emails that are strictly like, if you've ever experienced X, Y, and Z, you might think it's because this is happening, but actually here's what's really happening. Here's why you're really failing. A lot of times, to be an effective human marketer, you have to shift beliefs. I think that this is also true of social content. I think it's really true of all types of advertising. If you could shift someone's beliefs, because a lot of people come in with false beliefs, they are propagandized in various ways through the media that they listen to. I'm not talking in a political sense. I'm just talking in general. They are these ideas about their problem or about who they're trying to become. They have all these false beliefs. So it's like you kind of have to unprogram their brains and saying, like, I know everyone says this, but this is actually the worst thing that you could possibly do. And here's why that is. And here's what actually has work. Here's what works for our students. Here's what worked for me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So making sure they understand the problem. The second thing is making sure they understand the solution. And this is one of those things where like a lot of times I'll critique people's emails and they'll write this great email and they'll say, and by the way, you should buy my thing. It's like, okay, well unpack the offer. Like you should buy my program. You should buy my supplement. You should buy my physical good, whatever it is. The reason why is because when you buy this, it's going to do X, Y, and Z for you because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. People don't explain why the thing is good, how it changes their lives. There's features, there's benefits, and there's dimensionalized benefits. So a feature is part of the thing, right? It's like, oh, the thing has this feature. The benefit is the good thing that feature does. The dimensionalized benefit is how does your life change once you have experienced the benefit? And one of the things I always do with people when I look at their copy and look at their emails is I push them to say, OK, you're talking about the benefit here. Or sometimes they're only talking about the feature. And I say, what is the dimensionalized benefit? How does their life change once they've used this? ([Time 0:21:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d01ad94b-592d-4a97-b706-d4a43c8bc623)) - **Use Small-Scene Stories As Proof** - Use stories as demonstrations to provide proof and change beliefs non-confrontationally. - Zoom into small moments with feelings and dialogue to make stories vivid and persuasive. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski Stories are great, because they are delivery mechanisms for new beliefs. And the other thing about stories is that people tend to put themselves or see themselves in stories. And they're a very non-confrontational way of selling. Some people's brands are a little bit more aggressive. I'm probably a little bit more aggressive than the average marketer in terms of the way that I talk to people because I'm a very blunt person. That's just New Jersey. It's how I am. But you don't have to beat people over the head with your sales message. You could just say like, hey, I want to tell you about my friend Peggy. Peggy was having this problem and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then here's what she was experiencing. Here's what she was going through. She realized that this was happening. She decided to make a change and try this thing. And then this happened. And here's why this good thing happened. People are reading that and they're like, ooh, maybe I should be like Peggy, right? It's a very easy way to sell products. And the important thing about stories, the reason why stories work so well, which no one ever talks about, is stories are a demonstration. Gary Benson, one of the best living copywriters, for many years ago, he said this, he said, the most powerful form of proof is a dramatic demonstration. Well, everyone says, well, how do I demonstrate, right? Like you think of demonstration, you think of like the ShamWow infomercial, right? Like, how do I do that in email? How do I do that in copy? How do I do it with words? Well, if you tell a story, that automatically is a demonstration of the point that you're trying to make. So if demonstration is the most powerful form of proof and people do not buy without proof, it's not the size of the promise, it's the size of the proof. That's another Ben Sivenga thing. ([Time 0:25:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/46446975-72eb-4e89-a9ef-d8092220973e)) - **Reflect Visitor Answers Across Funnel** - Personalize landing pages, headlines, testimonials and emails using survey answers so each visitor sees tailored messaging. - Reflect dominant desires back to buyers to increase relevance and conversions. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski And the emails as well. So you could change testimonials. You could change like everything. Michael Stelzner Has that been a game changer? Chris Orzechowski Yeah, so far for the stuff that I've done with it. Yeah, it's just insane because when you think about it, I know when I develop programs and stuff, because I have such a diverse audience of people doing different types of businesses, I'm always like, I have to make sure I include, I have a headline that is all encompassing enough. I get this all the time. People will write into me and they'll say, hey, I have this kind of business. Is this right for me? And I had every time I launch a product, this happens. It's not a one-time thing. This happens dozens of times, a quarter, a year, whatever. I'm always in people, I just want to make sure that this is right for me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, the reason they're asking that is they're looking at it and they're going to say, well, it's a course on this, but does this fit my situation? I know that it fits their situation. A lot of times I answer that. I'm like, based on what you told me, yes, because of module three and module four and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But they don't see it on the page. So if someone owns an e-commerce store and I'm like, here's how to use daily email to increase your profit margins, try more repeat purchases, increase your customer lifetime value And take your email revenue from 0% to 30, 40% even higher. That's what they're looking for, right? Versus someone who is a course creator. And we could say, this course will teach you how to sell more courses. So you could have the biggest launch of your life and have tons of happy students and get a lot of word of mouth. Like the course will offer all of those benefits because it's the same underlying stuff that I'm teaching. That doesn't have to change because it's the system. The system works. But what people see in it and what they're there for might be a little bit different. So that's what's really cool about this. ([Time 0:32:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd91e7b7-6392-45a7-a993-fea8b3b159df)) - **Segment Backwards From Offers** - Build segments around your existing products and asks like "Are you interested in X?" with simple yes/no or multiple-choice. - Exclude irrelevant segments so people never see off-target offers. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski So it allows you to set exclusionary criteria and allows you to set inclusion criteria. Michael Stelzner Let's talk about any tips on creating a sequence. One of the things that we were talking about when you and I were prepping for this thing is that you don't have to start from scratch. You probably have messages you've sent in the past and stuff like that. So talk to me a little bit about how we can kind of simplify, if you will, the process of creating sequences. Chris Orzechowski Yeah. Sometimes when I sit down to write sequences, I get like overwhelmed because I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to write, you know, 10 or 20, 30 emails, whatever it is. Right. And I'm like, man, I really don't want to do that. So what I started doing, because I've been writing a daily email to my list since 2017, like every single day, like a psychopath. So what I started doing was I said, I talked to one of the guys on my team. I said, can you help me assemble this giant spreadsheet with different tabs? And we said, every email that I've ever written, we're going to put into a tab. And we're going to say, what were we promoting that day? And what you find is like, I have Email Copy Academy for copywriters, right? We can take every email that I've ever written to promote Email Copy Academy. And there's like, I don't know, five, 600 of those emails. So we put them into a folder, right? I do that with all of my different offers. And I categorize every single email. Then what I do is say, well, this email that I wrote back in 2021, is it a bad email? Because I wrote it four years ago. Like, no, it's not a bad email. Like I sent it, people loved it, they bought from it. Do I have any reason to believe that people would not buy from it again? Like if someone joined my list yesterday, they never saw the email from 2021. They don't even know it exists. They never heard it before. So yeah, I could write another 600 emails daily for promoting this course, or I can just look and say out of these 600, or maybe it's a hundred emails you've written or 50 emails you've Written for product. But like if you've written 50 emails over the course of the years for a product that you have, can you pull 10 of them out that are evergreen? Or can you evergreen them? Can you make them evergreen? Or even get inspired by them, right? Or even take them and rework them and say, I really like this angle, but like this was for a launch and now it's an evergreen product. So we'll just change the bottom. And that's what I did. And I started just looking back and I said, I don't have to write a single word for these sequences because the sequences are already written. And this is what I do with clients because my whole thing is like, I'm like, start writing. You don't have to start daily, but ideally you work up to daily. And then you do that for a while. And you realize you have so many emails that you could use. And then building a sequence is very easy. ([Time 0:38:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4c0e2ecb-f2e0-4d89-9e9f-b48157bc9ebc)) - **Assemble Sequences From Past Bests** - Reuse past emails: collect your promotional emails, pick evergreen winners, and repurpose them into sequences. - Create intent sequences that send your best-performing emails to clickers until they buy. Transcript: Chris Orzechowski Yeah. Sometimes when I sit down to write sequences, I get like overwhelmed because I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to write, you know, 10 or 20, 30 emails, whatever it is. Right. And I'm like, man, I really don't want to do that. So what I started doing, because I've been writing a daily email to my list since 2017, like every single day, like a psychopath. So what I started doing was I said, I talked to one of the guys on my team. I said, can you help me assemble this giant spreadsheet with different tabs? And we said, every email that I've ever written, we're going to put into a tab. And we're going to say, what were we promoting that day? And what you find is like, I have Email Copy Academy for copywriters, right? We can take every email that I've ever written to promote Email Copy Academy. And there's like, I don't know, five, 600 of those emails. So we put them into a folder, right? I do that with all of my different offers. And I categorize every single email. Then what I do is say, well, this email that I wrote back in 2021, is it a bad email? Because I wrote it four years ago. Like, no, it's not a bad email. Like I sent it, people loved it, they bought from it. Do I have any reason to believe that people would not buy from it again? Like if someone joined my list yesterday, they never saw the email from 2021. They don't even know it exists. They never heard it before. So yeah, I could write another 600 emails daily for promoting this course, or I can just look and say out of these 600, or maybe it's a hundred emails you've written or 50 emails you've Written for product. But like if you've written 50 emails over the course of the years for a product that you have, can you pull 10 of them out that are evergreen? Or can you evergreen them? Can you make them evergreen? Or even get inspired by them, right? Or even take them and rework them and say, I really like this angle, but like this was for a launch and now it's an evergreen product. So we'll just change the bottom. And that's what I did. And I started just looking back and I said, I don't have to write a single word for these sequences because the sequences are already written. And this is what I do with clients because my whole thing is like, I'm like, start writing. You don't have to start daily, but ideally you work up to daily. And then you do that for a while. And you realize you have so many emails that you could use. And then building a sequence is very easy. And then what you could do is just build, I call them intent sequences, which are kind of kicked off by the trigger links, like you said before, where if someone clicks on a product link, Then I just follow up like the greatest hits emails that I wrote in the past until they buy. And those are the ones that get super high conversions because they're relevant. They're only going to people who clicked. And they're obviously interested if they clicked on it, they're like, Ooh, what's this? Right? Well, if you're curious what it is, you probably want to know a little bit more about it. And those emails just follow up. ([Time 0:38:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9c5e5088-a376-404e-9cc5-6e37935f4c72)) - **Always Include A Buy Link** - Include a buy link in every email so interested readers can act and you can measure which emails drive response. - Use clicks to identify hot messages and optimize future sequences. Transcript: Michael Stelzner And you've got a call to action in every one of these messages that says, if you want to discover more, I've got a product that can solve this. Here's the link kind of thing. Oh yeah. Chris Orzechowski I laugh when people say like, don't include a link to buy and every, I'm like, why would you not include a link to buy? Like I wrote an email one time about, it was a fictional story about, oh, I went to the Jeep dealership and I said, I need my car service. And they said, sorry, today's a value only day. We're just going to teach you about the history of Jeep and we're not going to take your money. How ridiculous would that be? It's a made up story, obviously, but I was trying to demonstrate a point here. That would be pretty ridiculous if you went into a business and they're like, sorry, this is a nurture day today. We're just going to you. We're going to nurture you. We're going to cradle you in our arms. We're going to nurture you. We're going to rub your head. No, solve my problem, please. So I laugh when people are like, oh, you should only... I heard one time someone was telling me that they were listening to some marketing and they said they should follow the Fibonacci sequence or whatever in terms of farther and farther Spaced out calls to action. I was like, what are we doing here? Just put a link in every email. So people want to buy, they want to buy. And the thing is, if you let's put our data hats or data scientist hats on for a second. If you don't put a link in every email, you're not going to know which emails drive response, right? You're going to want to see, oh, this one had three times the click rate. What was it about this email that was the hot button? And you don't get that if you got no link in the email. ([Time 0:43:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b1db3417-0e67-4703-803f-5c0b8a88bc19))