Ep. 347: Career Counseling, Psychology and GTD  ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **How The Brunei Collaboration Began** - Rhymin recounts discovering Paul via a client and joining a Brunei career counseling project. - The project aimed to create ~40 career coaches and blended Opera Group and GTD expertise. Transcript: Speaker 2 This is the interesting story itself. I'm going to begin on that particular part, Paul. And I know you're going to smile at this. I think late last year, I had a call from one of our GTDers in Brunei. And she said, you know, Raimin said, someone is teaching GTD in Brunei and it's not you. Okay, I said, this sounds interesting. And she said that her parent company was the one that engaged this company called the Oprah Group, which that's your company itself, to train them about career counseling in Brunei. I said, hey, something curious came to my mind. And I said, there might be something here, or it might be a rogue trainer itself in Brunei who's teaching GTD, or there might be just an opportunity. So I set it aside. I set it aside. And after about a couple of weeks, I got another call. And it came from the client themselves. And guess what? They were actually calling me and they were saying that would you be interested to actually become a mentor to to to our coaches itself and that was in february oh no january and they said I said yes because i knew things was gonna actually go hairy with and stuff. And this was a good opportunity to learn something new as well. So I said yes. And that was where our journey began. So let me give a feeling with the audience on where we were or what we are actually doing. So our client wanted to actually create around 40 coaches in Brunei counselors in Brunei and to help people transition from new jobs or careers. In the process, they've engaged a company called Mercer, and everyone knows Mercer, who quickly formed a good team around it, consisting of Dr. Paul's company, the Opera Group, and four mentors who will be actually helping these career counselors along the journey of about six to eight months or so. ([Time 0:02:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/38138d86-e31b-46f0-beab-3b52ac6ce44a)) - **GTD Bridges Goals To Behavior** - Paul Englert found GTD bridges the gap between goals and behavior in career counseling. - Integrating GTD into Future Selves turns intentions into weekly actionable behaviors clients can follow. Transcript: Paul Englert Ryman. Yeah, it is an amazing meeting and coincidence how Ryman and I met. As Ryan was saying, this is a very unique project that we're involved in in Brunei. So it's essentially a quasi-government private sector organization, which is going through change. And as part of that change, there is a group of people that are being trained to be providing career guidance, career coaching, and career counseling to a large pool. I mean, we're talking, you know, over a thousand people. And a lot of these, the people getting trained hadn't had experience. And that was how we came in. So So my PhD is in the development of this model called Future Cells, which I did in the 90s. And it's part of that. And it's been an evolving piece of work. And this is where the GTD framework comes in. Part of what we've discovered is, or we discovered a long time ago, was that while we could identify career options for people, we had a framework that built those into goals. There's this missing piece between goals and behavior. And psychology has really cottoned on to this. There's a lot more of a focus now on methodologies that are behavioral-based. We talk about behavioral activation, which has been around for a long time. You look at things like, for example, the third wave methodologies, a lot of those have this behavioral component. But in terms of how to ensure that behaviors happen, it's a little bit more looser. And I came across the GTD framework, I don't know, it must have been four or five years ago, as I was looking for something that was this interplay between goals and behaviours where a Counsellor could take, had a very clear framework, which they could work with their client to ensure that they focused on the behaviors, on the next actions. And that is what we incorporated into the Future Selfs program. And so as part of this whole Future Selfs program, 90% of it is all around moving people from a place of pre-contemplation and wondering what they're going to do into being able to then Continually stay active on the job search because on the job search of course you know you can have long periods where you don't have this action and as part of that once they've established Their goals once they've put that into a framework this is where we include the GTD framework to say, let's start to have those brain dumps each week. ([Time 0:04:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a76ddfe7-ab41-47e5-8584-add9eaed33a3)) - **Run Weekly Brain Dumps And Calendar Actions** - Do a weekly brain dump and capture next actions to monitor client behavior. - Use the weekly list to set calendar appointments and hold clients accountable for specific actions. Transcript: Paul Englert And that is what we incorporated into the Future Selfs program. And so as part of this whole Future Selfs program, 90% of it is all around moving people from a place of pre-contemplation and wondering what they're going to do into being able to then Continually stay active on the job search because on the job search of course you know you can have long periods where you don't have this action and as part of that once they've established Their goals once they've put that into a framework this is where we include the GTD framework to say, let's start to have those brain dumps each week. Let's start to really get all of those behaviors in there each week so that your career coach, your career counselor can then use this to monitor behavior. I can get it we'll get into that a little bit more later on in terms of how that works but that essentially was how ryman and i then connected so ryman came in as a coach obviously has this Great depth of knowledge in gtd i mean we've essentially got this you know these couple of lines when when people say we were training and it was like you know here's what to do in terms Of having these these weekly brain dumps and then it flipped because then Ryman was then adding another layer to this whole program and it was just absolutely fantastic and so now the Whole two have been been integrated. And I think that the more that Ryman and I talk, and he was able to give me the depth of knowledge in GTD, and also take the GTD framework and then align it to the goals that we have, both in Terms of the future sales framework, but more so, much broader than that, the general methodologies around counselling and psychotherapy, this alignment has got us driving in a whole Different direction. And I think it's really exciting for both sides of the fence, both the GTD side, as well as psychologists. So yeah, that's my synopsis. Speaker 2 And in truth, right, what I was excited about was, Paul has this framework that connects with people, that helps people to become somebody new in career counseling itself. And that's where the career coaches come into play. But there was that missing gap at the end that says that, how do we effectively move into action itself? How do we actually convert whatever the goals that we want to actually do to actions itself? And this was exciting for me. I said, Paul, I think I can do this. And I think I can actually help you with this. And in the process itself, we shared information across. We take a look at how we want to actually train the coaches itself to be able to actually handhold, quote unquote, handhold their clients into action in to become accountable for for Paul Englert Their actions week on week and this is this is something interesting so paul what what what's your take on that being taken accountability 100 i think that that's a real powerful part Of it if you're providing career counseling sometimes you have your client is resistant to some of that behavioral component and they can come back next week and they haven't done those Behaviors. And part of that is the, is the problem of the counselor, the problem of the career coach, the problem of the psychologist, because it's left too broad. Behavioral component is left too broad you you will leave the session with some homework with some broad goals that they have to try to achieve and some behaviors around that but nothing To the level of detail where gtd goes and and no framework where a psychologist can say well here's what I want you to be doing each week. Here's what I want to see in your calendar. ([Time 0:07:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e7b0e543-c158-4622-849f-7f67304adf72)) - **Focus On Behaviors Not Feelings** - Making the next action explicit shifts therapy from feelings to controllable behaviors. - Therapists can improve outcomes by specifying weekly tasks and expecting accountability. Transcript: Paul Englert What's your take on that being taken accountability 100 i think that that's a real powerful part of it if you're providing career counseling sometimes you have your client is resistant To some of that behavioral component and they can come back next week and they haven't done those behaviors. And part of that is the, is the problem of the counselor, the problem of the career coach, the problem of the psychologist, because it's left too broad. Behavioral component is left too broad you you will leave the session with some homework with some broad goals that they have to try to achieve and some behaviors around that but nothing To the level of detail where gtd goes and and no framework where a psychologist can say well here's what I want you to be doing each week. Here's what I want to see in your calendar. And then I want you to be accountable for that. And, and this is where I see this huge growth for GTD, because I think that is a massive opening. I won't say it's unfair to say it's a gap in psychotherapy, but I think that these detailed frameworks around behaviors, we don't have as many methodologies coming to the table. Very powerful methodology and while it's been used for productivity and those types of gains and that's where it is where it's been based the parallels with what we do in psychotherapy Is very very similar so for example if i take something like act it's very values-based it's around what are your towards and away moves you know to talk about the russ harris sort of model And and those moves that's very similar to gtd which starts from that that whole values base and then looking at how does your calendar rely how does it relate back to that and you know The fact that ryman could take his knowledge and his training and literally we just we literally created another module where it was like okay Ryman you're gonna run this module for All of these career coaches and I think it was one of the most successful parts of the of the program and I think that that I look at that and I think wow there is just this massive massive Space and I use this now all the time and the and my work my one-on work outside of just career counseling just just my just my general work as a psychologist where I'm ensuring that once We've established those goals we move it into this framework where people are getting far more micro and they're going through a series of steps and stages on that Sunday, on that weekly Review. As Raymond said, there is this accountability. And that makes it great, obviously, for the client, but it also makes it good for the coach, psychologist, counselor, because of course, they can then see that and then they can go through It. ([Time 0:10:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5848521c-d52a-4a38-b943-dd2d47133680)) - **Small Wins Drive Momentum** - Completing next actions gives frequent dopamine-driven wins that sustain motivation. - GTD creates proximal wins along long-term goals which maintain engagement and wellbeing. Transcript: Speaker 2 Think that's something also and i remember actually asking you this question itself and and it is something that i experience as myself as well and also i've seen this in many of the people That has done gtd even the coaches that we've got every time they actually complete something, right, they have this, they feel happier or they feel satisfied with things and stuff. And that's by identifying the next action and also actually completing at the end. How do you explain that? I mean, that feeling of winning week on week is actually building people's confidence. How do you explain that in psychology? Yeah, it's a great point. Paul Englert And this ties into this dopaminergic system that we've got, this neuromodulator, dopamine that we all know about. And I think a lot of people think that dopamine is sort of this what happens when we hit the goal but dopamine is driving us towards that goal and you know we have our our our basic goals in Terms of food and and other things but we also as as as human beings we create goals for ourselves and it's the creation of those goals and then the movement towards those goals that drive A lot of this dopaminergic system. And that's why goals are so important. And GTD then sets these wins along the way. And because you're essentially getting a dopamine hit every time you're making a step closer towards it. ([Time 0:19:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f624342c-4e01-419d-8629-f43eac637820)) - **Start GTD With A One‑Page Template** - Introduce GTD gradually: start with a single-page template and a short overview. - Scale depth later for coaches who want more rigor; keep it simple for beginners. Transcript: Speaker 2 It was more of a deeper overview of GTD to the coaches. It's not the full cost, but a deeper overview of GTD. So something that would spark their interest because I think over the years, they've got their own way of doing things. They've got their own way of moving to action, but not in the way that we believe GTD would be able to help them. So I help connect future self framework with GTD at the end and lock it in and introduce GTD as the key methodology of ensuring follow through and follow ups for the coaches and their clients. So I shared also with them a simple one page organizing template. It's a single one page template that is so simple, yet not simpler than what it should be. So this template actually happens to be, I came to this from one of my staff itself. He created this simple template for himself, which was a game changer. Every time I actually show this to a lot of my clients and the moment that I actually showed them to the coaches itself, everything clicks. Yes, I know how to do this. It was very easy for them to actually connect how this whole thing works. ([Time 0:23:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2f315a29-4af5-4940-ad9d-1e21dd26384b)) - **GTD Fits Many Therapeutic Models** - GTD fits multiple psychotherapies because it supplies the behavioral detail they lack. - Its flexibility lets novices and trained psychologists use the same core process at different depths. Transcript: Paul Englert I think, yeah, cause as I think many people won't know this, maybe or might not know, you know, just how innovative, I think this part of the world is. And and you know that this contract in Brunei was was just it's very unique where we've taken people who had no background in career counseling and because they wanted internal they Wanted people who were being displaced internally to then, rather than be displaced, to come over and become career coaches. So they went through a selection program, a training program, all as part of this process. It was truly incredible. And I think the point that Ryman's making, which is very interesting. So now we've got these career coaches. So they've got some base knowledge. They're continuing to get training. There's webinars and all of these sorts of things. But remembering that they're not people that have come. They're not psychologists. They're not, they're not, and they're not pretending to be psychologists. They, they're fully focused on the career coaching and they have certain skills in this in their skill pack and gtd fits super quick so i think this is one of the most powerful things with It and what ryman was saying how he was able to modify, fit it into this program. And when you look at it, you can see how GTD can be used by people who are well-trained in psychology and different psychotherapies and apply it at that level, right down to somebody who Has just started their new career as a career coach, right down to, I think, self-help methodologies as well. So self-directed methodologies. And I think GTD has a place to play there. ([Time 0:25:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6409c977-d22c-476e-9b17-ab19bf945e53)) - **Adapt GTD Rigor To The Person** - Match GTD depth to the user: teach a simple brain-dump first, then introduce fuller practices. - Respect individual preference for rigor and adapt the method accordingly. Transcript: Paul Englert I think that's a really interesting question, and we can answer that in relation to this project. So the amount of GTD in the Future Sales Program, and I think just to put some perspective with the Future Sales Program, the whole idea with this is that career is just one part of life And too much career guidance is just focused too much on careers. And they need to recognize that careers fit inside a broad life and people need to have this breadth of life and lots of things going on at the same time. Of things going on at the same time you need a methodology to be able to ensure that all of the behaviors the things that you're working on as a person the goals that you've got are all tied Together you know i i remember reading in in gtd what was you know um david allen's martial arts background and you know and how and and and changes in his life and how he was able to bring All that together and that's perfect in that regard. So coming back to your question, the beauty of it is its flexibility. So, you know, we have a one pager, which basically says, you know, here is a methodology that you guys really should start reading about. You should start getting into at a simple level, just do that brain dump each week and start to put things through. You then take it that next level and you say, okay, here's some very simple, you don't go to the nth degree. Now there'll be people that love that nth degree and that's fine and that's the beauty of it is that, and that's I think why counsellors or people who start to pick this up from a psychology Perspective they need to know that depth and we work like this as well you know we have so again if we take something like act you've got fast act you know where you're having to do it relatively Quickly and um I just got to try and remember their names um kirk and what was it kirk kirk uh because i did write them down kirk stronzall and uh patricia robinson who who did that um they Take those those those concepts and they bring it down to a very simple level i think Russ Harris is like that as well. Same thing with GTD. You have this very comprehensive model and you have this way of simplifying it. And that's what you did in this program. Like you were able to say, okay, here's what we need to add this next layer of depth. We don't necessarily need to go down here. ([Time 0:29:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f01725db-d450-4d5c-8fe8-3d4082f270c5)) - **Coaches' Reported Wins In Brunei** - Coaches reported clear benefits: improved accountability, personal implementation, and reduced overwhelm. - Several coaches became GTD advocates after experiencing week‑by‑week progress. Transcript: Speaker 2 So it transcends everything itself. So it makes sense. Before this, I knew GTD was how effective GTD is and GTD was, but this is the first time that I saw it being adopted this way in career counseling and bring people to action in this way. And I had direct feedback and I can share with John and everyone else in the audience, they say that one of the feedback that I've got was that this particular coach who actually introduced The template to her coaches itself, and it made it easier for her to actually keep them accountable week on week by defining the next action. And in return, the coaches themselves felt accomplished by having to actually have wins week on week as well. And they can see their progress and they know what's expected of them. Another coach felt that they implemented it themselves, they implemented themselves and it has changed them for life and became an advocate of GTD. So I think that this has changed the way they actually do their own coaching world it helped them in their coaching world as well the third one was also interesting um in that one of the Coaches actually said that it helped them uh it helped him beat overwhelm and and beat burnout as well and which was which was, which was amazing too. So in a sense that when you actually adopt this, right, it's not just exactly on, on career counseling, it helps. It actually helps the coaches themselves, the counselors themselves in, in, in approaching this, because this whole, this whole discipline that you have, Paul, it's, it's, it's Bringing positive wellness to people itself. And where that starts, it starts with the coaches, with the counselors themselves. And absolutely brilliant. So I think I had many happy occasions and many aha moments with you in the whole journey of that six to eight months as well. That's very encouraging. Paul Englert Yeah, it is. It's been an incredible journey. ([Time 0:35:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c1f33ca4-5b4b-48cb-aa6a-00d34e24babe))