Ep. 363: David Allen Talks With Julie Flagg  🔗 **Source:** [Ep. 363: David Allen Talks With Julie Flagg](https://share.snipd.com/episode/9364679a-864b-4792-b2d2-5ab2ced13977) ## Highlights - **GTD Sustained My Abrupt Career Exit** - Julie Flagg retired from a high-intensity OBGYN practice after decades and found GTD even more essential in reshaping her post-career life. - She went from a compact paper system in practice to a modified retention of core GTD habits like the two-minute rule and weekly review. Transcript: David Allen Julie, Dr. Julie Flagg, here she is, folks. Julie Flagg So, David, first of all, it's wonderful to be with you. We go back a really long time. We'll get into that later on. But briefly, I am a 75-year retired OBGYN, and I am about to approach my one-year anniversary. And so I took retirement very seriously. And as I said, I plan to be as exuberant and not intense, but purposeful in my retirement as I have been with my previous ventures, which includes my career in medicine and even going all The way back to second grade, that I plan to go into retirement full throttle and to make the most of this one precious life that I have. Having done that, I am probably one of your most devoted GTDers since 2000, when I first came across your book and you sent me, we met in Boston and then you sent me Karen Ross and we worked For two three-day sessions and basically my life was transformed. I don't think I could have continued with my medical career. I was so overwhelmed after 15 years in practice. So I am a devoted GTD-er and I wondered what would happen to my GTD system. It was very, very compact and very paper-oriented. They had incredible files and incredible systems. And I wondered what would happen when I hung up my white coat. And so I have modified my system somewhat. But when we spoke, I said I felt like I needed GTD now more than ever. ([Time 0:01:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a10d9b46-36c1-48c5-bc5b-e8174615d68b)) - **Early Bereavement Forced Practical GTD Use** - Soon after retiring, Julie's mother (age 102) died and two other close people passed away, forcing immediate estate, memorial, and emotional projects. - Those early losses tested her system but GTD lists and projects helped her process and settle into retirement. Transcript: Julie Flagg My mother, who was 102 at the time and in extraordinary health, died two months later after the multiple retirement parties and bashes and everything else. And so that was a really big deal. One of my goals in retirement was to become the daughter my mother always wanted me to be and to be much more attentive to her. And I couldn't. And instead, we were dealing with her service and all of the estate stuff. And so that changed. And concurrently with that, two other very important people had died in not exactly rapid succession. But I kind of thought of those three people as the three legs to my stool, people that I would call very frequently and who would know me and I would know them. And all of a sudden they were gone. So that was a big adjustment. But we worked through keeping track of lists and projects, and things started to settle. ([Time 0:04:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d65faf95-40f6-4568-9012-c2e00dcb9cfd)) - **Projects Provide Purpose In Retirement** - Retirement can feel abrupt and destabilizing even if planned; maintaining projects and next actions preserves purpose and momentum. - Julie kept the weekly review, two-minute rule, and next-action focus to translate career discipline into retirement activity. Transcript: Julie Flagg Yes. So probably my biggest instructor in life was my dad, who was unencumbered with a high school degree, but he ended up being an enormously successful contractor. He did a lot of things very, very well. And he was one of those rare birds that I think was a natural GTD-er. And so when I read your book and met you, I said, dad would have, he just was that kind of person. But as he got older, he said, retirement was the most difficult thing I ever did. Now, this was a man who went from no high school into the Air Force during the Second World War, then came out, his company got into nuclear stuff co-generation recycling crazy crazy Things and us and then but he also learned tennis he rode horses he played you know he swam every day and i was struck when he said it was the hardest thing that he ever did. And I thought, you know, I think it's going to be easy. And, but I wasn't sure. And my dad, when he dropped a little bomb like that, I learned to take notice. And I think that it's not plain sailing. But that's why having the projects, you know, having things that I absolutely had to get done, taking care of my mom's estate, doing the memorial service, doing, you know, making it As good as I could make it. You know, doing my best, you know, really getting into e-biking and the kinds of things that I was interested in, in the state of Connecticut and roads, you know, road safety and everything. All those things, I knew that I needed projects and I knew that I needed next actions. And I also needed to adapt my system now that I didn't have a stupid white coat. So I had to figure out how to have the lists and the really have a clear sense of next actions and still do the things like the two minute rule that was so important. ([Time 0:07:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e7736b6e-59be-43ad-a93d-e97251e06655)) - **Pocket Lists Keep A Busy Retiree On Track** - Julie carried a compact pocket list system everywhere to manage daily errands like bank visits, Asian market stops, and meal prep while socializing with family. - She credits that pocket system for completing disparate tasks despite self-described disorganization. Transcript: David Allen Okay, but I have to ask you, did you or your dad ever unpack why retirement was so hard for him? Julie Flagg Say that one more time, David. David Allen Did you and or your dad ever unpack and figure out why retirement was so hard for him? Why do you think that he thought that? Julie Flagg What was so hard for him? Retirement? Well, he was a charming man. And he was a real people man. And he, he, like he spent the first hour of every day saying good morning to people. And he didn't just say good morning. He'd say, did you get that front tire fixed on your car? You need a haircut. You look lovely. How's your son? Did he get over that pneumonia? He would know all that stuff. And he'd go, the shop looks great. His company had a very formal office, but then it had a giant, giant workshop where a lot of the prefabrication happened. So he would oversee that. So he, that was his day. He would start off in the, he parked behind the shop and then he'd walk through the shop to his office. And he just was a people person. He loved the people that he hired. He always said, hire people that are much nicer than you are and a whole lot smarter and have a lot of knowledge. Because I sure as hell don't have it. So he had these fabulous people that he was around. And then he always had lunch with somebody that he basically adored so it may be the guy that was running the uh lighting manufacturing company or you know the police officer that took Care of his mother you know the or the priest or the you know the buddy that he was going to go sailing with so everything was um he was very people-oriented and that sense of purpose and Regimentation would was no longer there and he would do these amazing jobs you know he'd do co-generation and he'd do the sun-kissed prune factory and that was very exciting to him and And suddenly that all that energy disappeared or dissipated right right he had three secretaries and i remembered them at when i was doing his eulogy and they sat together and these Were like three amazing women that basically ran the company, you know, that kept him on, you know, but, you know, they were just these amazing, and one of them is still alive and we still Talk to her, you know, she, you know, she, they taught us how to write, you know, they were, you know, one of them was a Shakespeare scholar, you know, they were just brilliant, brilliant Women. ([Time 0:12:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/63c0a496-6425-4ad9-840f-4dd33459a556)) - **Social Rhythm Is A Core Part Of Work Identity** - Losing daily role-based social interactions removes structure and identity; retirement success requires rebuilding social networks and meaningful routines. - Julie observed her father struggled because he lost purpose and daily people-driven rituals despite hobbies. Transcript: David Allen Yeah. So how did he get over it? Or did he? Julie Flagg Well, he played tennis. He rode horses. He didn't really do a good thing. It was really hard for him. He remarried to a woman that had a serious drinking problem. And so their social life had become constricted. He also had had a bad accident that was a traumatic brain that I really made an even more successful businessman. I don't know how that happened, but that's when the company took a huge leap up and and uh and then the company was sold so he was 60 at that time which in our family is actually still young Um and so he had he had another 20 25 years that he that were not filled with you know coming up with new ideas and, you know, reading the Wall Street. He used to read the Wall Street Journal with a pen and ruler and then his secretary would file them away. He'd have these ideas and he'd share them with people. You know, that, you know, he spent after an hour of saying good morning to people, he'd spend, you know, another hour doing something. And then he'd take an hour and read the Wall Street Journal with a red pen. You know, that kind of structure was gone from his life. And that kind of like, oh my God, you know, the space program, the solar, the wind, all those things just fascinated him way ahead, you know, 20 years before everybody else. And so it didn't quite. But I think he, you know, it's like when you and I talked and you said, don't flunk retirement. And I think that that's what dad was saying to me, too. You know, really, it's like, you know, more than a quarter of your life. ([Time 0:15:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d47bac9a-ab6c-4a77-b442-aa42e79b25b5)) - **Establish Areas Of Focus For Postwork Life** - Do define and maintain areas of focus in retirement beyond projects to handle slower, complex civic or personal interests. - Julie uses areas like cycling safety, infrastructure, and relationship upkeep as ongoing focus categories alongside next actions. Transcript: Julie Flagg So that was the other thing that I wanted, that I find, you know, before when I was working, I was next actions, projects, next actions, projects, two minute rule, next actions, projects. But now I find like it's area of focus. And I find that, you know, trying to keep up with the political things that are happening, but also to really, my wife is an incredible underwater hydrographer. So she deals with things like the Francis Scott Fee Bridge and the funnel that's going under the Hudson that Trump has stopped, you know, dealing with all these major projects, some That are going forward, some that are stopped. And the impact on what's happening in the infrastructure of this country. So my relationship with Nancy when I was a practicing physician was pretty simple. I would work all day. I'd ride my bike into work. I'd ride my bike back, usually arriving home well after dark. I'd eat something quickly. I'd fall asleep on the anti-gravity chair. And then I'd wake up and I'd go to bed and I'd leave the next morning between four or five, hop on my bike and go back to work. So I was very easy for Nancy. Now I'm at home and it's shocking. Let's just say we've had some remarkable conversations, David. And when we're in Amsterdam next week, you and I are going to have a little chat. So my relationship with Nancy is my most important priority. And I recognize that my, it's just, it's really different. And now, like, I have, you know, an office. She works at home, and now I have an office at home. And so one of the things that I've done is really develop the office and the files and getting all the systems going. And so that is interesting. Mother ultimately aged and died and that became a major area of focus for him and his family and it's really a big deal and so those areas of focus are really important. ([Time 0:18:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/18b3c8d5-5753-41b3-a0ea-ebc548508b25)) - **From Operating Room To E-Bike Advocacy** - Julie substituted surgical decisiveness with slower civic efforts like improving her Connecticut town's pedestrian and cycling safety, which are more bureaucratic and time-consuming. - She also embraced e-biking to extend mobility without knee replacement, likening it to transformative hearing aids. Transcript: Julie Flagg You know in medicine I could make almost any damn thing happen. In trying to get our little town in Chester to be safer for pedestrians and cycling is a whole lot more difficult and complicated and slower. But I'm very, very interested in cycling, e-cycling. I find that, I mean, I find it as important as in our family, we're almost all deaf. So we all start wearing hearing aids when we're in our 20s and 30s. And I find like the e-bike, I rode my bike my whole life, but by the time I was 65, my knees were shot and they said they had to be replaced. And I said, I don't have time to replace them. And then Nancy said, let's try an e-bike. I don't think I'll ever need them to be replaced. But I feel the same way about e-bikes that I do to my hearing aids when I realized I just couldn't hear. And I was still a young woman and I was, you know, an undergrad and I couldn't hear. And then they gave me hearing aids and I was like, oh my God, this is great. The same thing as like when I was a little girl and they gave me classes, it's like, whoa. David Allen Yeah, stereo vision and Dolby Sound. Yeah, I know. Exactly, exactly. Julie Flagg So the e-bike has been important, but those other things, you know, cooking healthy meals and things like that and entertaining. And then happily, by moving, you know, being with Nancy all the time, not when I was on call, I stayed at my apartment at work. But now I'm here all the time at home. So, but Nancy, she works by herself, but every morning she has breakfast with a group of unusual people in our tiny town in Connecticut. And so I just hopped onto that. So I sort of had kind of a spontaneous social network away from work. And I think that only thing that I miss, and every once in a while I'll run into a colleague at work, from work at a restaurant, and I'll miss that kind of running into somebody like, oh my God, you should have seen the case I saw yesterday, or would you come to the OR, I need your hand right now. ([Time 0:21:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6adb576a-df1b-4c8f-9299-5e9f4ead94fc)) - **Don't Flunk Retirement Plan It** - Do plan retirement deliberately and treat it as a major life phase to avoid aimlessness. - Julie emphasizes keeping prioritized relationships, projects, and routines to 'not flunk retirement.' Transcript: David Allen And so what advice would you give people listening to this about retirement? And they may still be in the second grade. I don't know. But so they may not be close to that age where they think that where that's becoming a reality. And then there are a number of people who already passed that age or coming to that age or whatever. So if you had to be sort of generalize your advice to people about how to approach that segment in their life, what would it be? ([Time 0:23:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/41feb79c-c6d7-4ebd-a574-7a9bfe37e18c))