Ep. 377: GTD Refuge With Ann and Fedder  🔗 **Source:** [Ep. 377: GTD Refuge With Ann and Fedder](https://share.snipd.com/episode/1144b252-f99b-4c79-b125-4e15d0d1966b) ## Highlights - **How Denmark's GTD Summer Camp Started** - The Danish GTD community created a Summer Camp that grew into a 60-person international event with a waiting list. - Felix explains it began informally, valued intimacy, and limited size so people could trust and remember each other's names. Transcript: Felix Gorgård Basically started by the quite vibrant GTD community that we have in Denmark. And also a tradition that things are kept quite informal in Denmark and everybody can sort of make a community out of... It's actually a constitutional right that we have to create communities in Denmark about basically anything, as long as it's sort of legal and GTD is well within the bounds of being Legal. So, so today for GTD practitioners, they got together and said, well, why don't we have a extended or a weekend where people can meet and talk about everything GTD and let's make it a summer Camp. So the first one was in 21 and now we are in the, we've just finished the fifth edition of it and now it's a sort of nearly professional event with 60 participants from all over the world. John Forrester And my understanding is that at least the last couple of years you have filled up and ended up with something like a waiting list. Is that? Indeed. Good. All right. Felix Gorgård And we actually, I mean, we have the waiting list, not necessarily because we couldn't fit any more people in, but because we want a specific atmosphere at the summer camp where you can, It should not be larger than everybody can still kind of remember each other's names and there is a sort of um i'm not sure that the right word is intimacy but but that people trust each Other uh that we can actually open up and and talk openly about our practice and and concerns and and whatever have from our GTD experience. ([Time 0:02:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/febe87c2-a845-4956-ac20-dd293d98e027)) - **Idea For A Winter Refuge Born From PhD Retreat** - Anne turned the summer camp energy into a different winter event after leaving camp pumped and not wanting to wait 12 months. - She modeled it on an artists' refuge she experienced during her PhD and designed a quiet weekend with private rooms and shared social time. Transcript: Anne Lückegård Sønsen I the i think the after the second camp I'd attended I had talked a lot with Fedor and a couple of others and on the way home from summer camp I was thinking I can't wait 12 months to have this Feeling again I was pumped with energy and so I contacted Fedor and said, how about doing a summer camp, but in the winter time, then it's only six months until next time. So it was sort of like adding an extra Christmas. That was the idea at the time. But I think some things were subconscious with me at the time because it ended up being something very different from the summer camp as Fedor has already hinted at um and he was he was Up for it so um we planned uh a getaway we had planned we actually did a natural planning model uh for uh for this retreat and the idea came from when I was finishing my PhD, a lot of things Was going on in my life. And I got the opportunity for spending a week in a refuge in Denmark, which is an old summer villa for the royal family. And it was only artists and researchers that were there finishing their projects, working on their art. And it was that atmosphere I think I was longing for. So we quickly decided, well, we want our privacy, of course. We want each of our bedrooms, but we want that summer camp vibe. But it's some different work that we want to do when we're together. And that's how it really started. So the first time we met up, we were sort of figuring out where it was going. ([Time 0:04:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/55d60ebb-a49d-4613-8977-9789d2d768db)) - **Winter Refuge Complements Summer Camp Purpose** - The winter Refuge complements the Summer Camp by prioritizing structured reflection and higher-horizon thinking over social energy. - Felix contrasts bright, outward summer activity with short, inward winter days tuned for perspective and planning. Transcript: Felix Gorgård Yeah now it actually turned out to be a very strong supplement to the summer camp because where the summer camp is sort of a kind of a reflection of summer where everything is so joyful And very interactive. Our winter refuge or retreat is quite the opposite. In Denmark, the sun rises around 8.30 in the morning and sets around 3.30. So the days are really short and it's not really very bright. And at the same time, we also, instead of having this huge community and presentations, we actually make room for structured reflection in what I call it, solemnity, alone, basically. And this structured reflection is, of course, coming from GTD and a way of actually putting real effort into the higher horizons to figure out what is it that we want to happen during The next year and what has happened the last year. I know many people, Lars has been talking about it on his podcast, that he is doing this year-end review in the holiday season. I try to do the same, but that's mostly sort of cleaning out the deck, making sure that I'll get where I need to be with the house and the cars and blah, blah, blah, the budgets and all of that Jazz. So the basic stuff. But I use the refuge for figuring out where I need to be, where I want to go. ([Time 0:07:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d6b089e3-4dd1-4985-bac2-c323dbd5e94b)) - **Schedule Silence And Social Time Ahead** - Define a light program so solitude and social moments are scheduled and respected. - Anne says pre-deciding silence hours and shared social times prevented them from chatting too much and preserved inner work time. Transcript: Anne Lückegård Sønsen Is a Wi-Fi connection and we do use it. And I think all other people I know, if I talked about a refuge for a weekend and suggested that we had a program, they would look at me with horror. A program for a relaxed weekend, doing self-reflecting. But these guys understood exactly why we needed a program, so that the quiet solitude time was already decided. The hours where we would laugh and cook and have fun were decided on. So there was a slight structure put into place. And because we are open people, all four of us, that was also needed because we know better than other people. We probably would have chatted a little bit too much. So the program was actually necessary. ([Time 0:15:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/430a1618-ab81-41c4-833f-6e13338a4bbf)) - **Make Meals Simple To Avoid Performance Pressure** - Reduce meal performance by sharing simple, communal cooking so focus stays on inner work. - They brought casseroles and simple staples so meals were practical, unpretentious, and naturally became quiet sharing times. Transcript: Anne Lückegård Sønsen And we chose this cabin because we had discussed different options, also a hotel, for example. But that would create more of a conference atmosphere, which is what the summer camp is trying to achieve. That's got more of a conference vibe to it. So it had to be simple. We also pretty early on decided that we wanted to share meals, that it was important to have both the solitude, but with a social layer underneath it. And then there is a tendency for meals to run wild. If you have to make them yourself, you have to impress, you have to perform. And that's the last thing we wanted to do while we were there. So it was just decided that we brought two casseroles and then cooked rice or pasta. So that was it. John Forrester So you take a lot of the focus off of the fuss or well in a way you take out the creativity but you also take away the pressure and the focus on the food. Anne Lückegård Sønsen Yeah yeah so because it's it it had to be as much as possible on the inner work the inside work that we were doing um and there was no agenda for the meals as such but so but it naturally become Became um extensions of perhaps someone shared a little bit about what they had been working on earlier. ([Time 0:19:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/51f78419-16c5-4cdc-800c-189df52e0287)) - **Shared GTD Language Creates Psychological Safety** - Shared GTD language and understanding of unresolved commitments created deep respect and psychological safety. - Anne notes this common vocabulary lets very different people witness each other's reflection without judgment. Transcript: Anne Lückegård Sønsen And because we have this shared language of commitments and responsibilities, and we all understand what it means when something, an unresolved commitment creates inner noise. That's also something we have in common to understand that. So there is a deep respect for each other's directions in life, however different they may be. But that's also what creates some of the best dynamics, I think. For people who work with the same thing, the same age, wanting to do the same things in life, they will quickly agree on some things and never have their perspective challenged. Oh, interesting. John Forrester So did you find that your perspectives were challenged over the course of this weekend together yeah yes oh good definitely one of the most important thing that things that happened Anne Lückegård Sønsen To me was the first time i arrived with the intention of planning the year ahead. And Birgitte, one of our other GTD buddies, just showed us a document where she reviewed the year that had just gone by. This is usually the week. This would be the weekend between January and February. So the year that had just passed. And so I thought, oh, maybe that's a way I can write myself into reflecting on my higher horizons. And I came there thinking that it had been a little bit unproductive year for me. I had several projects that I hadn't finished both at work and in private. And then when I started reviewing what I had actually done that previous year, something shifted in me because I had been extremely productive. I had done many things both on a personal level, on a work level. I had had an impact on many people's lives because we had illness in the family, things that you can't really see, but it's still something that I was part of managing. I had just not seen that as things achieved before this document really invited me to describe what had happened. ([Time 0:24:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/39058ce4-9e40-4169-a16e-5a32894de41e)) - **Year Review Revealed Hidden Productivity** - Anne arrived intending to plan the year ahead but a year-review document shifted her view and revealed she had been highly productive. - Writing a structured review exposed achievements she hadn't recognized while in the daily grind. Transcript: Anne Lückegård Sønsen Yes oh good definitely one of the most important thing that things that happened to me was the first time i arrived with the intention of planning the year ahead. And Birgitte, one of our other GTD buddies, just showed us a document where she reviewed the year that had just gone by. This is usually the week. This would be the weekend between January and February. So the year that had just passed. And so I thought, oh, maybe that's a way I can write myself into reflecting on my higher horizons. And I came there thinking that it had been a little bit unproductive year for me. I had several projects that I hadn't finished both at work and in private. And then when I started reviewing what I had actually done that previous year, something shifted in me because I had been extremely productive. I had done many things both on a personal level, on a work level. I had had an impact on many people's lives because we had illness in the family, things that you can't really see, but it's still something that I was part of managing. I had just not seen that as things achieved before this document really invited me to describe what had happened. But it is, and after doing it, I realized that's also GTD. Previewing what has already happened. Yeah. To make sure you have the right direction. But that's what the whole idea of not thinking ahead, productivity, activity, next actions, projects, but also giving a little of an attention to the actions and projects that's behind You. ([Time 0:25:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7e2e04b0-5387-4dda-b588-619e26b7eaa5)) - **A Weekend Away Makes Deep Reflection Stick** - The refuge makes intentional change more likely because it removes domestic or work distractions and creates external accountability. - Felix says having a committed weekend away replaced vague good intentions with a confined space where reflective work actually happened. Transcript: Felix Gorgård With local libraries and the internet, we have access to more or less infinite knowledge. We as thought workers and being in a sort of, we have more or less adult children, all of us, we have the time to study and do change. Just having the knowledge and time doesn't necessarily give us the way to realize the change. You actually need something to facilitate the change and to make the change stick. And that is where I find that the refuge comes into place. Because I could easily say to my wife that, oh, next weekend, this or that, I'll reserve it for working on my high horizons. And chances are that if the calendar permits, and it quite often would, she would say, oh, great, do that. But I just cannot physically envision myself sitting in my office doing this by myself. It just wouldn't happen. And I guess I'm not the only person with that situation. So that's why this initiative is so welcomed, at least by me, because it gives me an opportunity to actually allow myself to get work, to work on these things. Oh I cannot actually there is no dishwasher that needs to be emptied there are no laundry to be done or whatever practical stuff to be fixed it is we're confined to work on this and then There is of course also this sort of implicit understanding that this is what we do. So of course we sort of do it. Right. ([Time 0:30:09](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e0f51125-e602-4859-b264-14e74316816d)) - **Tool Design Mistake Caused Ongoing Friction** - Small tool habits can cause big friction: Anne realized she had misused Todoist by putting items into areas of focus instead of context lists. - That epiphany explained recurring friction and gave a concrete summer fix for restructuring her tool. Transcript: Anne Lückegård Sønsen And my story is like all the others, read it several times before some of the pieces fell into place. The day before yesterday, I realized a new thing. So we are all learning. But what I realized... John Forrester The only person I ever knew who didn't think he was still learning and was convinced that his GTD practice was very solid and all that, when I talked to his co-workers, they told a very Different story. They said, oh no, he misses deadlines. He doesn't track projects or actions. He's very difficult to work with. But he was convinced that he had learned GTD and there was nothing else to learn. Anne Lückegård Sønsen I had the experience of, I was looking at the instrument that I use, I use Todoist. And then I had just read in making it all work. And I realized that I had organized Todoist into my areas of focus and not context lists. And I just had this epiphany. Oh, that's where the friction comes from. ([Time 0:32:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/118d8feb-37d6-46b8-bc71-25212c09d637))