Ep. 43 Accessibility, Fiber Arts, and ADHD with Abbey Perini

Ep. 43 | Accessibility, Fiber Arts, and ADHD with Abbey Perini 🔗 **Source:** [Ep. 43 | Accessibility, Fiber Arts, and ADHD with Abbey Perini](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qChDJblDwsk) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [accessibility, adhd, fiber-arts, web-development, neurodiversity, community-building] > author: Overcommitted Podcast > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qChDJblDwsk > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Ep. 43 | Accessibility, Fiber Arts, and ADHD with Abbey Perini >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Learn Git recovery commands — build confidence for "lost" commits #git #devtools - [H2] Audit personal projects for accessibility — start with dark mode toggles #accessibility #audit - [H3] Explore ADHD accommodations at work — check AskJAN website for legal options #adhd #workplace ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Abbey Perini's Blog](https://blog.abbeyperini.dev/) - [AskJAN Accommodation Database](https://askjan.org/) ## 📝 Summary - Abbey Perini discusses connections between fiber arts, accessibility, and ADHD in web development - Key topics include Git recovery, accessibility auditing, and neurodivergent workplace accommodations - Emphasizes that accessibility and beautiful design aren't mutually exclusive - Shares personal ADHD journey and challenges "superpower" narrative - Demonstrates how fiber arts communities inform better development practices ## 📖 Main Content Abbey Perini, a full-stack Vue developer at Hygienia, shares insights on the intersections of fiber arts, accessibility advocacy, and ADHD in tech. She's preparing talks for CodeMash on Git recovery and fiber arts/programming connections. The conversation covers how programming owes historical debt to fiber arts (punch cards from Jacquard looms, women weaving rocket memory), accessibility as fundamental web development practice, and reframing ADHD from "superpower" to understanding personal systems and accommodations. Key themes include community building lessons from fiber arts, accessibility spanning front-end to back-end concerns, and the importance of designing systems that work for neurodivergent minds. Abbey emphasizes practical tools like physical Pomodoro timers, breaking tasks into 10% increments, and employer accommodations available through AskJAN. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Git Recovery Talk - Key idea: Preparing #GitPanic talk series on restoring lost Git work - Evidence: "99.9% of the time you can always get that commit back" #### ⏱️ [08:23](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=503) — [H2] Fiber Arts and Programming Connection - Key idea: Programming learning curve interfered with fiber arts during bootcamp - Evidence: "The entire part of your brain used to figure out new stitch or pattern is so similar to coding" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=765) — [H3] Historical Debt to Fiber Arts - Key idea: Tech industry built on fiber arts innovations - Evidence: "First punch cards were Jacquard looms making textiles; MIT hired women to weave wire for rocket memory" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=1110) — [H2] Accessibility as Full-Stack Concern - Key idea: Accessibility extends beyond front-end to backend and data design - Evidence: "Cognitive accessibility - archaic flows where password box appears after username delays" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=1515) — [H1] Dark Mode Toggle Accessibility Audit - Key idea: Beautiful design and accessibility aren't mutually exclusive - Evidence: "If you say something can't be pretty and accessible, you're not trying hard enough" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=1960) — [H3] Alt Text as Community Practice - Key idea: BlueSky's alt text reminders make inclusion more fun and automatic - Evidence: "Challenge yourself to write alt text for memes - it's more fun to include everybody" #### ⏱️ [38:50](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=2330) — [H1] ADHD Diagnosis Journey at 28 - Key idea: Wedding planning and remote work revealed executive function struggles - Evidence: "I feel like I'm bad at things, struggling so hard just to do what everyone else seems to do normally" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=2720) — [H2] ADHD Systems and Tools - Key idea: Multiple organizational systems working in tandem, not expecting neurotypical behavior - Evidence: "18 systems working in tandem, and if one falls out, everything spirals" #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=3130) — [H3] Physical Pomodoro Timers - Key idea: Physical timers help with hyperfocus and time awareness - Evidence: "Even if I don't get up, I at least know how much time is passing" #### ⏱️ [56:35](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=3395) — [H2] Rejecting ADHD as Superpower Narrative - Key idea: ADHD requires support systems, not celebration without accommodation - Evidence: "Who is running your life? Is it a wife, partner, mom making sure you make appointments?" #### ⏱️ [62:20](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=3740) — [H3] 10% Progress Philosophy - Key idea: Breaking tasks into small increments reduces overwhelm - Evidence: "You don't have to unload entire dishwasher at once - just glasses is 10% and still progress" #### ⏱️ [68:45](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=4125) — [H1] Workplace Accommodations and Trust - Key idea: Flexibility and trust enable neurodivergent success - Evidence: "Employers hiring for can you do the job - get work, do work, hand in work on deadline" ## 📚 References - [Abbey's Portfolio Site](https://abbeyperini.dev/) - [AskJAN Accommodation Database](https://askjan.org/) - [Hey Honey, You Have ADHD book](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58729849) - [CodeMash Conference](https://codemash.org/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Fiber arts and programming share deep historical and cognitive connections, from Jacquard looms creating first punch cards to similar pattern-following mental processes - Accessibility spans entire development stack and benefits everyone, not just disabled users - it's fundamental web development, not optional feature - ADHD requires systematic accommodations and tools rather than celebration as "superpower" - success comes from designing life around neurodivergent needs ## 📰 Newsletter 🧵 **Fiber Arts Meets Code: Lessons in Accessibility and Neurodiversity** Abbey Perini's insights remind us that WordPress development benefits from diverse perspectives and inclusive practices. Her accessibility-first approach - from semantic HTML to cognitive load considerations - aligns perfectly with WordPress's mission of democratizing publishing. **Key Takeaways:** - Accessibility auditing should be routine practice, not afterthought - Historical innovations in fiber arts directly enabled computing advances - Neurodivergent developers bring unique problem-solving approaches when supported properly **WordPress Connections:** - Block editor accessibility improvements benefit all users - Pattern libraries echo fiber arts pattern-sharing traditions - Community-driven development mirrors craft community knowledge sharing Resources: [WordPress Accessibility Handbook](https://make.wordpress.org/accessibility/handbook/), [Block Editor Accessibility](https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/how-to-guides/accessibility/), [Gutenberg Patterns](https://wordpress.org/patterns/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Create Git recovery workshop content based on #GitPanic methodology - Develop accessibility audit checklists for developer onboarding - Design neurodiversity-friendly documentation formats with multiple learning modes #### WordPress - Accessibility: Integrate physical Pomodoro timer recommendations into contributor documentation - Community: Create fiber arts/coding crossover content for WordCamp diversity initiatives - Training: Develop ADHD-friendly learning paths with 10% increment milestones - Documentation: Add cognitive accessibility guidelines to developer handbook - Core: Evaluate form flows for cognitive load (avoid delayed password field patterns) #### Community - Maintainers: Establish alt-text requirements for project imagery and memes - Contributors: Create mentorship programs pairing fiber artists with developers - Sponsors: Fund accessibility auditing tools and ADHD coaching for contributors ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Fiber arts experience improves debugging skills through pattern recognition training - Physical fidget tools during coding sessions increase focus for ADHD developers - Accessibility-first design reduces overall development time and user support costs - 10% increment task breaking reduces project abandonment rates for neurodivergent developers ### 📊 Methodology - Survey fiber artists in tech about debugging approach differences - A/B testing of Pomodoro timer types (physical vs digital) for developer productivity - Comparative analysis of accessibility-first vs retrofitted project timelines ### ❓ Questions - How do fiber arts pattern-following skills translate to code review effectiveness? - What percentage of "beautiful but inaccessible" designs actually require accessibility compromises vs better implementation? - Which ADHD accommodations provide highest ROI for both individual productivity and team dynamics? ### 🔮 Future Research - Computational knitting applications in responsive web design - Intersection of craft community governance models with open source project management - Neurodivergent developer productivity tools and workplace accommodation effectiveness studies ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Accessibility auditing becomes standard development workflow step - Policy: Organizations adopt neurodiversity accommodation frameworks proactively - Education: Coding bootcamps integrate accessibility from day one rather than as advanced topic - Community: Craft communities provide models for inclusive technical mentorship ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th-9th grade (conversational podcast format) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Yarn background, fiber arts examples, pattern analogies - Improve: Git command flowcharts, accessibility audit visual checklists #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast format with conversational explanations - Improve: Timestamped audio chapters for key concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich analogies between fiber arts and coding, storytelling approach - Improve: Glossary of fiber arts terms, expanded coding metaphors #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Physical Pomodoro timers, fidget tools, hands-on fiber arts - Improve: Interactive Git recovery sandbox, accessibility testing labs #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Historical progression from Jacquard looms to computing - Improve: Decision trees for accommodation selection, systematic audit processes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community building examples, Discord discussions - Improve: Fiber arts coding circles, accessibility audit pair programming #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal ADHD journey, individual system development - Improve: Self-assessment tools, private journaling prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic community growth patterns, craft tradition preservation - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about accessibility impact ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear podcast structure, speaker identification - Improve: Detailed transcript with speaker labels, topic timestamps #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Chapter navigation shortcuts, transcript search #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard YouTube interface - Improve: High contrast transcript options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive YouTube player - Improve: Scalable transcript typography #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, audio descriptions #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic YouTube comments - Improve: Accessible feedback forms for topic suggestions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Neurodiversity representation, craft culture inclusion - Improve: Global fiber arts traditions, international accessibility standards #### Inclusive language - Present: Person-first disability language, avoiding ableist metaphors - Improve: Define technical jargon, provide multiple explanation formats #### Neurodiversity support - Present: ADHD experience sharing, accommodation strategies - Improve: Multiple neurodivergent perspectives, sensory considerations #### Representation - Present: Women in tech, disabled developers, craft artists - Improve: Broader age ranges, international contributors #### Psychological safety - Present: Vulnerable sharing encouraged, judgment-free tone - Improve: Content warnings for medical discussions, community guidelines ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Historical fiber arts → computing progression well-documented - Inductive strength: Personal ADHD experience → general accommodation principles - Causal reasoning: Accessibility improvements → better usability for all users - Analogical strength: Fiber patterns → code patterns comparison compelling #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: "New" accessibility tools aren't necessarily better than established practices - Hasty generalization: Single ADHD experience may not represent all neurodivergent needs #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, educational, vulnerable, and empowering with practical focus ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - Attack: No attacks on accusers - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals - Emotional cues: Genuine vulnerability and advocacy without manipulation ## 🎯 Conclusion Abbey Perini demonstrates how diverse perspectives enhance web development through the lens of fiber arts, accessibility advocacy, and neurodivergent experiences. Her practical approach to ADHD accommodations, systematic accessibility auditing, and historical understanding of computing's debt to fiber arts provides actionable frameworks for creating more inclusive development practices. The key takeaway is that accessibility, neurodiversity support, and beautiful design are not competing priorities but complementary aspects of thoughtful development that benefits everyone. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Fiber arts teach pattern recognition applicable to debugging > [!quote] [Ep. 43 | Accessibility, Fiber Arts, and ADHD with Abbey Perini](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qChDJblDwsk) by [[Abbey Perini]] via [[Overcommitted Podcast]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "The entire part of your brain used to figure out new stitch or pattern is so similar to coding" Historical connection between textile patterns and computational thinking. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/qChDJblDwsk?t=503#H1) #accessibility #fiber-arts ID:rw_fiber_debugging ### [H2] ADHD requires systems not superhero narratives > [!quote] [Ep. 43 | Accessibility, Fiber Arts, and ADHD with Abbey Perini](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qChDJblDwsk) > "Anytime anybody tells me ADHD is superpower, I'm thinking who is running your life --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Overcommitted Podcast, [00:02] your weekly dose of real engineering [00:04] conversations. I'm your host, Bethany, [00:06] and I'm joined by Hey, I'm Britney Ella. [00:11] The three of us met while working on a [00:13] team at GitHub and quickly realized we [00:15] were all obsessed with getting better at [00:17] what we do. So, we decided to start this [00:19] podcast to share what we've learned. [00:21] We'll be talking about everything from [00:23] leveling up your technical skills to [00:24] navigating your professional [00:26] development. All with the goal of [00:27] creating a community where engineers can [00:29] learn and connect. Today on [00:31] Overcommitted, we are joined by Abby [00:33] Perini, a mid-level view developer at [00:36] Hygienia. [00:37] Abby describes her coding comfort zones [00:40] as all areas within the stack, is [00:42] passionate about making the internet a [00:44] better place for everyone through [00:45] accessibility, and loves helping other [00:47] developers through blogging and [00:48] speaking. Additionally, she is a fiber [00:50] artist and has consistently incredible [00:53] nails, which you can see on Blue Sky. [00:55] Welcome, Abby. [00:57] >> Thank you. I might use this as my new [00:59] intro. We were talk or bio. We were [01:01] talking about how we're all terrible at [01:02] writing our own bios and this is great. [01:04] It's much more succinct than mine. [01:07] >> Amazing. No, I was having trouble not [01:09] copying yours because I loved it so much [01:11] and I was like, we need to like tweak it [01:12] a a little. So, that's [01:15] >> They asked for a shorter one. I'll give [01:16] this one. Uh that'll be it. [01:18] >> Perfect. Perfect. Sounds good. To kick [01:20] us off, really curious. What's one thing [01:22] that you're currently building or [01:24] obsessed with learning right now? [01:26] >> So, I have I'm giving a talk and a [01:28] workshop at Code Mesh in January. So, [01:30] I'm having to prep all of that content [01:32] right now. And I think I've finally [01:34] found the narrative in my restoring lost [01:37] work git talk. It's the whole series of [01:39] talks and blogs is titled #Gitpanic [01:42] because that's the inside joke that came [01:44] up when I was learning Git. you know, [01:46] it's it's always trying to give you a [01:47] heart attack. And so, this talk is [01:49] really near and dear to my heart because [01:50] we've all like if we've tried to do [01:52] something fancy and get accidentally [01:54] deleted a commit and been like, "My life [01:55] is over. This is it. It's over." And I [01:58] think this talk will give people a lot [02:00] more confidence in knowing that 99.9% of [02:02] the time you can always get that commit [02:04] back. And uh you know, it's it's really [02:07] boring when you stand up in front of [02:08] people and just run command after [02:09] command after command and be like, "You [02:11] can do this things these are things you [02:13] can do on your computer." So, I'm glad [02:14] to have finally found the narrative and [02:16] I'm hoping the audience at Code Mash [02:18] likes it. [02:19] >> Oh, that's awesome. I will definitely be [02:21] watching that talk afterwards because I [02:23] feel I feel like doing simple things in [02:28] Git is pretty pretty simple, but anytime [02:30] you have to do anything more complex, [02:32] I'm definitely googling like how do I [02:34] rebase? How do I do this? So, um excited [02:37] for a better mental model there. [02:39] Awesome. Well, speaking of building [02:42] things, as mentioned, you are a fiber [02:44] artist and have been crocheting and [02:46] knitting for a while. [02:47] >> Yep. [02:48] >> My gosh, I didn't even notice. For [02:50] listeners, Aby's background has so much [02:52] yarn. Uh that is amazing. [02:56] >> And then a pile of unfinished projects [02:58] as you do, you know. [03:00] >> Of course. Yes, that's how it goes. So, [03:03] I really loved uh while researching [03:05] reading your blog uh post called [03:07] Knitting as Programming. Um, and you [03:10] mentioned that programmers owe it all to [03:12] fiber. That was kind of the subtitle. [03:15] Um, so since you've been doing fiber [03:17] since 2013, I'm curious like when that [03:20] connection really was established when [03:23] as you were learning um to program. So I [03:26] started learning to program in 2020 and [03:29] I kind of timed it so that accidentally [03:32] I committed to a boot camp right when [03:35] lockdown started. So, I was in the [03:37] staffing industry and nobody was hiring. [03:38] Everybody was panicking. So, I basically [03:40] was getting paid to learn to code for [03:43] several months. And when I started doing [03:45] boot camp, obviously the learning curve [03:47] jacks up and it's like you're drinking [03:49] from a fire hose. Could not pick up a [03:52] knitting or crochet project during boot [03:54] camp at all. Like I would just like [03:56] stare at it and be like, "No, not [04:00] today." like I the entire part of your [04:02] brain that is used to figure out like a [04:04] new stitch or like follow a pattern or [04:06] anything like that is so similar to [04:07] coding that after doing it for you know [04:09] 8 10 hours a day I was like that's not [04:12] relaxing to me anymore that's I can't do [04:14] it. So there's a a sharp decline in my [04:18] fiber arts and that's when like right [04:21] after I finished boot camp I was like [04:22] huh that's kind of like weird like I I [04:24] wonder if anybody else has made this [04:25] connection and then that article was [04:28] just like the beginning of it for me. I [04:30] have talked to I was like at Netlifi [04:32] Compose at the after parties being like [04:34] guys what about like knitting and [04:36] programming and the and two like [04:37] researchers were like you mean [04:38] computational knitting and I was like [04:40] great there's another term awesome and [04:42] so I even through some personal life [04:46] stuff met someone who taught fiber arts [04:48] at uh the Chicago Institute of Art and [04:50] so I've got some new articles and stuff [04:51] for my workshop at Codemash which is [04:54] fiber arts and programming. So, I'll be [04:56] talking about that relationship and also [04:59] teaching people to crochet and knit. And [05:01] the relationship is so interesting [05:02] because people will just be blown away [05:04] by the fact that like uh they MIT hired [05:08] women to weave wire together to create [05:11] ones and zeros to make little old lady [05:13] memory for rockets that went up into [05:15] space for them to work. So, like the [05:17] first punch cards were jakard looms [05:19] making textiles. And like it's it's [05:21] really it's it's more of a marriage than [05:24] it is like two separate things that just [05:25] keep influencing each other. [05:28] Yeah, it was really cool to see not only [05:31] that like um knitting is similar to [05:34] programming in terms of patterns and uh [05:37] like repeating stitches and things like [05:38] that like it's similar to actual code [05:42] but actually code is built on top of [05:44] like the technical industry does [05:46] actually owe a lot to fiber and I [05:50] thought that was such a cool connection. [05:52] I also loved the connection like not [05:54] only to that but also just fiber artists [05:57] leveraging um online communities for [06:00] connection and open-source software to [06:03] create. I'm curious if you have anything [06:05] to add on what developers can take from [06:07] those like community building practices [06:09] or open source usage. [06:12] So, I'd say knitting has been trying to [06:17] figure out like the knitting community [06:18] has been trying to figure out the best [06:20] way to teach beginners how to get into [06:22] these extremely complicated knitting [06:24] patterns because especially I know some [06:26] of y'all crochet I'm not sure if you've [06:29] ever attempted to knit a sweater, but [06:30] like just trying to get the 3D shape to [06:33] go to different sizes and like how the [06:35] stitches work out and stuff like that is [06:37] a lot of math and a lot of physics and [06:40] at like a tiny scale. often and so [06:43] they'll have to have these very abstract [06:45] charts and lists of stitches and stuff [06:48] like that. Um, just for the crocheters, [06:51] knitting charts and crocheting charts [06:53] are two completely different things. And [06:54] I've talked to like knitts who never [06:56] crocheted and they're like, "What? It's [06:58] like arcane magic. Like I don't [07:00] understand like the te's going off of [07:02] each what is happening there?" And then [07:03] I look at knitting charts and I'm like, [07:05] "I just can't keep track of where I am [07:07] in this grid." I bought all the things [07:09] with the magnets that like help you keep [07:10] track and like all that stuff and it [07:12] does not help at all. So I often stick [07:14] to just the written out like stitches [07:18] and those I'm able to remember and that [07:21] the way that at the beginning you get [07:24] like the key for all the different [07:27] abbreviations that they're going to use [07:28] and then eventually your brain maps it [07:30] to like essentially variables and then [07:32] you're sitting there with little like [07:34] four and while loops like this this is [07:36] both knitting and crochet. The way that [07:39] people are taught these patterns is a [07:41] lot more accessible often than the way [07:44] that we're taught for loops and while [07:46] loops in programming. Especially like I [07:49] I can do statistics. I can't do a math [07:53] and I have a complicated relationship. [07:55] And like to illustrate that I had to [07:56] look up what the sum symbol was again [08:00] like two years ago and my math friends [08:03] are like are you kidding me? And I'm [08:04] like, I knew what it was at some point, [08:06] but like I try to avoid math, so I don't [08:08] remember what the symbols are. And when [08:10] people start talking about explaining [08:12] programming with math, they're not like, [08:14] okay, so here are the symbols you're [08:15] going to need to know. Here's how here's [08:17] like a few basic concepts before we [08:18] really get into it. They're like, surely [08:20] you're familiar with monotonic [08:21] functions, and that's going to explain [08:23] everything that I'm talking about in the [08:24] rest of this article. And I'm like, no, [08:26] it really does not. [08:29] So there's an interesting overlap in [08:33] like how the pattern communities have [08:36] thought about communication and those [08:38] soft skills that often are downplayed in [08:40] like a technical standpoint. And there's [08:43] a lot to learn from them just for like [08:45] teaching people how to do these crafts [08:47] with their hands. And I love the point [08:49] that it's a great way to teach QA [08:51] testing because you have to sit there [08:53] and you have to follow the pattern and [08:54] you want it to look like the picture and [08:55] then you're doing the you're doing the [08:57] process that makes the output and then [08:59] you look at the output and does it look [09:00] like the picture and just that process [09:02] like a lot of people haven't thought [09:03] through. So when I started talking to QA [09:05] people I was like yeah you're brilliant. [09:06] This is great. You're thinking of all [09:07] the little steps that people forget and [09:09] they were like she's our favorite [09:10] developer. Let's let's stick with her. [09:12] We're doing it. [09:13] >> That's amazing. I personally have never [09:15] made that deep of a connection between [09:17] them, but you're so right. I feel like [09:19] there are so many crossovers. I'm a [09:21] crocheter. I cannot handle knitting. I [09:23] wish I could. It's so hard. You can. You [09:27] just have to find the pattern that gets [09:28] you into it because I for the longest [09:31] time was like I think I've been c [09:32] crocheting like eight years before I [09:34] picked up knitting. And I've been like I [09:37] don't need knitting. I can make [09:38] everything with crochet. It's fine. And [09:40] then I saw a pattern that was a scarf [09:43] that had a dungeon map on it with charms [09:46] for all the D&D monsters. And so you can [09:48] play the entire adventure that's [09:50] associated with it on the scarf. And I [09:52] was like, I'll learn to knit. And the [09:56] the owners of the store were like, [09:58] you're going to have to learn to knit [09:59] and pearl. It's double-sided. Like there [10:01] are a lot of things you're gonna have to [10:02] learn at once. And I was like, it'll be [10:03] fine. Best color work I've ever done. [10:05] First project. Can't do color work [10:07] tension now. It's horrible. Don't know [10:10] why, but that first project, beautiful. [10:12] Amazing. Got [10:13] >> some motivation to, you know, for that [10:15] end product, it makes a huge difference. [10:17] For sure. [10:17] >> Yeah. I know you and the wooles. You'll [10:20] you'll find something eventually that [10:21] you'll be like, I got to make that. [10:22] >> Yep. Yep. It's true. That's amazing. [10:24] Yeah. And speaking of community, we do [10:27] have an online community that is I think [10:29] we have Abby who shares her things. We [10:31] also have Christina Martinez who we've [10:33] had on the show who shares her things in [10:34] our our Discord in our little off-topic [10:36] Discord. And if you too also out there [10:40] like to make things, we would love to [10:42] share them and obsess over them as well. [10:45] Little plug. [10:46] >> Agreed. [10:46] >> Nice plug. I love it. [10:48] >> Thank you. Yeah. I just want to see more [10:49] things people make because it's so fun. [10:53] >> It's had a glow up. I was just added to [10:54] talk about fiber arts and now like [10:56] sometimes the off topic channel I'm like [10:57] when was the last fiber art? I got to [10:59] scroll back so far. [11:01] >> True. It's true. [11:04] So I wanted to talk a little bit too [11:06] about accessibility uh because I know [11:08] that that is another topic that you are [11:11] quite prolific and you've done a lot of [11:13] blog posts and talks and everything uh [11:16] advocating for the accessibility [11:17] community which is just awesome. One of [11:19] the blog posts we'll link it as well is [11:22] the about how web development is equal [11:24] to accessibility. Um, I'm curious after [11:28] looking through that, like do you think [11:30] that since you're a full stack [11:32] developer, like is accessibility only a [11:34] front-end concern or like are there [11:36] accessibility concerns that folks that [11:38] you have to think about on the back end [11:39] as well? [11:40] >> So, that blog is my my like spicy hot [11:42] take. That's my my like only spicy hot [11:45] take blog where I'm just like if you're [11:47] not thinking about accessibility, you're [11:49] technically incorrect. I don't know how [11:51] to explain to you that you're not [11:53] thinking about people and you should [11:54] care about people. So, I'm just going to [11:55] go straight for the nerd snipe. Okay. [11:57] And I finally did give that as a talk [11:59] recently and I thought it was pretty [12:01] fun. But accessibility, a lot of people [12:03] think, okay, so it's the front end, it's [12:05] the buttons, it's the color contrast, [12:06] it's what you click, can you click it, [12:07] can you do keyboard, can you do screen [12:08] reader, blah blah blah blah blah. But a [12:11] lot of times people don't think about [12:12] like cognitive accessibility. So [12:14] creating these archaic flows where you [12:18] like the thing that is driving me nuts [12:20] right now is when you go to a form and [12:22] you type in your username and then it [12:23] waits a second and then pops up the [12:25] password box and then you have to click [12:26] it again and autocomplete it again [12:28] because I use autocomplete for [12:30] everything because I have ADHD. I cannot [12:32] remember anything and I am a web [12:33] developer so I have to have random [12:35] passwords. I have to autocomplete and [12:38] it'll be like okay why are we doing [12:40] that? Is it because it's two backend [12:41] calls? like do we need to like deal with [12:44] the back end? So, it's not that much. [12:46] And then there's also the data layer. [12:48] I'm in another book club, not [12:50] overcommitted book club, I'm sorry, uh [12:52] that's reading like data uh driven [12:55] designing data driven data intensive [12:58] applications. That's the one by Martin [12:59] Ken. And um it's talking about you know [13:03] the way that you structure data and like [13:05] the tools that you use for data and [13:06] stuff like that. And I find that [13:08] especially developers often forget about [13:10] things like documentation being about [13:12] accessibility and equity and bringing in [13:15] new developers and letting them get [13:18] onboarded all in the same way and give [13:20] feedback on the onboarding process and [13:21] getting them up to speed in a way that [13:23] isn't sink or swim. So it it can be [13:26] everything from the tools you choose and [13:30] making sure that everybody on the team [13:31] knows how to use those tools as well as [13:32] the way that you're designing the [13:34] backend to create the flows on the front [13:37] end and the way that you're designing [13:39] your data structure for the developers [13:42] because like I've had conversations [13:44] where people don't even think about it [13:45] being an accessibility thing but like [13:47] the data structure being the same in [13:49] this app and this app in the same [13:50] company is actually better for all of us [13:53] from a development standpoint, but also [13:55] from an accessibility standpoint because [13:57] if I can remember one schema and [13:59] validation and stuff like that, I don't [14:02] have to remember that, oh yeah, this one [14:03] over here has a slightly different tweak [14:05] or like this one's uh supervisor and [14:08] this one's trainer when they're both [14:09] have to be supervisors, so we might as [14:11] well just call them supervisors and [14:13] stuff like that. So, it it boils it [14:15] boils over into everything. Once you [14:17] start noticing accessibility fails, it [14:19] only keeps snowballing in your life. [14:21] Yeah, it also feels like one of those [14:23] things where like there's not like I [14:26] often feel like there's not like a ton [14:29] in the world that I can like really [14:31] tangibly meaningfully make better for [14:33] people, but like building better web [14:35] pages is like something that I can do. [14:38] Like it's free. There's nothing stopping [14:40] me from like making a better site, [14:42] making a better page. aside from you [14:44] said like technical limitations or like [14:47] you know company company priorities or [14:49] something like that but like if it's my [14:51] own and like I have any say in it like I [14:55] that is something that I can do and make [14:57] it better for people. [14:58] >> Yeah. I recently when I joined this [15:00] company my one of the higherups was [15:02] known for saying like I don't care about [15:04] screen readers and I was like I can't [15:05] wait for him to say this in a call with [15:07] me. This is gonna be great. This is [15:08] gonna be a great time. And then I wrote [15:10] the densest article about Arya. like it [15:13] is 75 people had read it. Like it was [15:16] not like it's so long and it's only for [15:18] the people who actually are like I need [15:21] to know the answer to this or my fellow [15:23] accessibility advocates who I had them [15:24] read it multiple times to make sure that [15:26] all the information was correct. And [15:27] like I don't know why this was the thing [15:29] that changed his mind but all of a [15:30] sudden he was like well you know when [15:33] you put it that way like it really makes [15:36] more sense like if from a structural [15:38] standpoint you can provide all of this [15:40] information with HTML. And I was like, [15:42] what? Why was this the Thank you for [15:44] reading my article, but why was this the [15:46] thing that you got nerd snaped by Arya [15:49] of all things? Like that's that's the [15:50] weirdest thing. And I think the other [15:52] thing was again, I don't ask permission. [15:54] And every time I made something more [15:55] accessible, it worked better. And like [15:57] our our whole thing is that the user [16:00] with the least technical information [16:02] should be able to use our website [16:04] without like having to ask for help, [16:06] without needing tool tips. Like ideally [16:08] they should be able to look at it and [16:10] know exactly what button they need to [16:11] hit next, which is a challenge. But [16:13] every time I tackled one of those [16:15] problems and made it more accessible, it [16:17] was much easier to use. And so I I don't [16:21] People have often been like, "How do you [16:22] get accessibility to be more of a [16:24] priority?" And I'm like, "It's just a [16:25] priority to me and I'm going to keep [16:26] doing it." And like it helps that my [16:29] direct boss, that's one of the reasons [16:30] that he brought me on. He was like, "Oh, [16:32] she'll she'll just do it." [16:35] He was he was out one time and he came [16:37] back to a PR that had put back in all of [16:39] the focus outlines on all of the [16:40] interactive elements and I was like I [16:41] broke. He was okay. [16:43] >> It's a good point though. I mean like it [16:45] does like it can translate to things [16:48] like [16:49] >> page visits like longer time spent on [16:53] whatever screen like you know the sort [16:55] of like typical performance indicators [16:57] that like companies use for like [16:59] >> are we a good site or not? Like you know [17:02] are people visiting? are they staying in [17:04] our pages? Like, you know, if they're [17:06] more joyful and like easier to use, like [17:08] the answer is probably yes. So, like you [17:11] can probably find business [17:14] whatever business justifications. [17:15] >> Business justifications. [17:16] >> Yeah. And a lot of times it'll be like, [17:18] oh, I can do this in one line with [17:20] semantic HTML instead of 30 lines with [17:22] like weird JavaScript. The other thing I [17:24] wanted to say is like as people who are [17:27] technically literate, we understand [17:29] things more than the average person when [17:31] it comes to interacting with technology, [17:33] especially if you start learning about [17:34] mobile accessibility, which I was lucky [17:37] enough to get to do in my last job. [17:38] There are so many things when like your [17:41] parents get older, your grandparents, [17:43] people who um come get something like MS [17:46] and start losing the ability to do fine [17:49] motor skills and stuff, you can be a [17:52] resource for them. talking about like, [17:53] oh, you can you can just talk to your [17:56] computer and it will type for you. Stuff [17:57] like that. They don't even know that [17:59] that's a possibility. They don't know [18:01] about it's talk back on Android and [18:02] voice over on iPhone just like it's [18:04] voice over on Mac OS. And the day I knew [18:07] that my dad actually understood my job [18:09] was when he came to me and he was like, [18:10] you know, my my friend's wife has [18:12] advanced MS and she's just asking Siri [18:14] to use her phone. Is there something [18:17] else that she could be doing? And so I [18:19] and my co-workers at the time drew up [18:20] this whole list of things. And just [18:22] like, you know, the fact that there are [18:24] different ways that you can use your [18:26] mouth to interact with a computer. You [18:28] can have a stick. You can have a straw. [18:29] There are like multiple different [18:31] assisted technologies that you can use. [18:33] And that kind of information once you [18:35] start to build it up, people really need [18:37] that because they that it isn't like [18:39] offered up. There's no course teaching [18:41] you how to use technology. And so I was [18:44] in a I think a PT receptionist office [18:46] and I said something about like, "Oh [18:48] yeah, with technology is is advancing [18:50] very quickly, but we're not making sure [18:51] that everybody can use it while that's [18:53] happening." And she was just like she [18:54] almost started crying because she was [18:56] just trying to operate the computer in [18:58] front of her and the printer. And she [18:59] was like, "I'm so sorry this is taking [19:00] so long." And I was like, "No, we're all [19:02] figuring it out." As my PT is like, [19:04] "Abby, you might need to get back here. [19:05] This printer is not." I was like, "Why? [19:07] I'll kick it for you. I did that in an [19:08] IT job before, but like [19:11] >> yeah, [19:12] >> not printers. [19:13] >> Yeah, it's uh it's amazing too how much [19:17] there is to learn about accessibility. [19:19] Like I don't feel like it's very easy to [19:20] learn. There's definitely some good [19:22] resources out there, but you like really [19:24] have to dig for them, which is one of [19:26] the reasons why I appreciate a lot of [19:27] the blog posts that you put together [19:28] because they're very uh you know, [19:31] readable and they're very real, too. So, [19:34] one of the examples we came across while [19:36] uh preparing for this was your dark mode [19:38] toggle. Yeah. And you have a whole blog [19:41] post going over like how you, you know, [19:43] audited that and fixed it, which one I [19:45] think that that's as developers that's [19:47] often one of the first things we add to [19:49] websites, whether or not that's like the [19:50] most useful tool for everybody. Um, and [19:54] yours is gorgeous. [19:55] >> Thank you. [19:56] >> As well. Um, so I'm curious, what are [19:57] your thoughts on like blending that like [19:59] aesthetic vision for those things and [20:03] those with accessibility requirements as [20:05] you're building now? Like is there [20:06] anything you learned from that [20:08] experience that you've carried forward? [20:10] Okay, so my second spicy hot take, we're [20:12] really spicy hot taken on this podcast [20:14] is that if you say that something can't [20:17] be pretty unaccessible, you're not [20:18] trying hard enough or you need to get [20:20] better or one of those two. And shout [20:22] out to Chris Bongers for the design for [20:24] the dark mode toggle that's on my [20:26] portfolio site. And that series where I [20:30] went and audited that toggle [20:31] specifically because it came up was part [20:34] of a six-part blog series on auditing my [20:36] own portfolio site. That is what got me [20:38] the job at a digital accessibility [20:40] company. Like I saw the post and I went, [20:42] "Please, I have I have blog posts. I [20:44] have so many look at these." And they [20:45] were like, "Okay, yeah, we need someone [20:47] passionate." And that all started [20:49] because of my friend who I am very lucky [20:52] to know, Todd Libby, who is known for [20:54] lobsters and accessibility. And he [20:57] possibly in the other order maybe he did [21:00] a lunch and learn in a the networking [21:02] group I was part of. And he went through [21:06] how he would look at somebody's website [21:08] when he was auditing it. So he went [21:09] through all of the tools that he would [21:11] use and then a lot of it after that was [21:14] manual stuff. So, there were also um [21:16] guides for all of the manual testing. [21:18] And so, I went through the whole process [21:20] on my website and then identified all of [21:23] the things that I wanted to fix. And the [21:25] dark mode toggle was one of those [21:26] things. And I think the title of that [21:28] one uh was like accessible dark mode [21:30] toggle. And that's how I met Graham who [21:32] really he started with a comment that it [21:35] had headings like it was formatted like [21:38] there it was a lot and I was like buddy [21:40] and then we both thought we had insulted [21:42] each other. It was a whole thing. We're [21:43] we're good now. We're friends. But like [21:45] he was like, "You can't say that it's [21:48] accessible because it's not 100% [21:49] accessible." And I'm like, "But Todd [21:51] Libby says that nothing is ever 100% [21:53] accessible. That's impossible. Like you [21:55] that's how do we how do we do that?" And [21:57] so like threw back and forth. I think I [21:59] even added more stuff um in either other [22:02] blogs or like at the I went back and [22:05] edited that one, but I had started with [22:08] the beautiful thing and it's still a [22:10] beautiful thing. I think the only thing [22:11] that I would add to it now is uh [22:13] creating an actual tool tip instead of [22:15] using title so that the tool tip would [22:16] be activated when uh it's focused with [22:18] keyboard. But Graham came up with things [22:21] where like I had the focus outline would [22:23] come in gradually and he was like [22:27] you can't you can't see it for like most [22:29] of the animation. I was like okay yeah [22:31] that's fair. But for like you know [22:32] people are like well you know animations [22:34] aren't accessible. You just have to be [22:36] able to turn them off. Like you can [22:37] still have them. you just need an [22:39] alternative where they're off. So, um [22:42] there are a lot of things now where now [22:45] that I've been doing it for a while, [22:47] I'll go to something and I'll be like, [22:48] "Huh, I wonder how accessible this is." [22:51] And like start thinking about how I [22:53] would make it more accessible and like [22:56] what alternatives could possibly be [22:58] there. And sometimes, most of the time, [23:01] it's just like, hey, if I couldn't see, [23:04] what would I want to know about this? [23:06] Which is why I think Blue Skye's push [23:09] for alt text is one of the most fun [23:11] things that I've uh gotten to witness [23:12] because I've been doing all text for a [23:14] long time on Discord, on Slack, on and [23:16] it's it's such a pain in the butt on [23:18] Instagram. Not that I have an Instagram [23:20] anymore, but there are a lot of times [23:21] where it's like really really difficult. [23:23] And Blue Sky has the setting where it'll [23:25] remind you if you don't add alt text to [23:27] an image. And that has been so great [23:29] because like I don't have to remember [23:30] that piece anymore. I just get to sit [23:31] down and like describe the image. And if [23:34] you aren't having fun thinking about the [23:36] alt text for your image, I challenge you [23:39] to go write alt text for a bunch of [23:41] memes, like a ton of memes, because I [23:44] use a lot of memes in my blog. So, I've [23:46] had to do a lot of summaries that are [23:48] like, you know, okay, the stick figure [23:50] is sitting at the desk. What is the [23:51] stick figure sitting at the desk trying [23:53] to like describe? Okay, all right, maybe [23:54] I don't need to talk about his desk [23:57] sitting. Maybe I just need to talk about [23:58] this part of the image. and then [23:59] giggling at my own description of the [24:01] image and hoping that someone comes [24:03] along and like also giggles too. It's [24:06] It's more fun to include everybody is [24:09] what I found. [24:09] >> Wait, can I go on a rant about alt text [24:12] and Oatley? [24:13] >> Yeah, [24:15] the uh oat milk thing. All right. Um I'm [24:19] excited to tell this story because it [24:21] makes me truly upset. But one time I was [24:23] scrolling Reddit and Oatley had an ad [24:26] like whatever. But they were using the [24:27] alt text as like memeing. They were [24:29] like, "Oh, Reddit said we have to use [24:31] alt text, but isn't that boring?" So [24:33] instead, we'll just like like basically [24:35] make making fun of alt text. And I was [24:37] like like people were roasting them in [24:39] the comments. I'm like maybe like [24:40] somebody needs to know about this and [24:42] that it's actually truly like a terrible [24:44] thing. So I emailed them. I emailed [24:46] their like corporate communications. I [24:48] was like, "Hey, this is really bad [24:50] actually. like these are the reasons you [24:52] should care about accessibility, about [24:53] alt text, like why it's important, why [24:55] it's good for everyone. And they emailed [24:56] back and they doubled down. They were [24:57] like, "No, don't you think it's like [24:59] kind of dumb and kind of like [25:02] unfortunate." So to this day, every time [25:04] I go to a coffee shop, I'm like, "What [25:06] brand of oat milk do you use?" And if [25:07] it's Oatley, I don't I don't use it. I'm [25:10] like, "All right, whole milk's great. [25:11] I'll take it." [25:12] >> Vote with your wallet. [25:14] >> Exactly. Exactly. So So Oatley is [25:17] terrible. Um that is my takeaway. [25:20] Um yeah, so I'm a I'm a cancer survivor [25:23] and one of the things that that involves [25:24] is uh talking to a lot of people and [25:26] going through a lot of portals and doing [25:28] a lot of things that um can be very [25:31] cognitively accessibil [25:33] murky is is the best thing I can say. [25:35] And there there was one time where I [25:37] called a charity and I I do think that [25:39] they were trying so I'm not going to [25:40] name them. But like when I call I like [25:43] left this feedback and then I got this [25:45] call out and I was talking to her and [25:46] she was like well we do have [25:47] accessibility testing and I was like [25:49] okay well I think you need to look at [25:51] that accessibility testing because like [25:53] an automated tool cut all of this like [25:56] this is not it's like color contrast [25:58] like I don't I don't know it's really [26:01] basic stuff and they were like but one [26:02] of the other things was so my chart is a [26:05] common app that medical institutions [26:06] will use and you kind of get it's one of [26:09] those things where I think they have a [26:10] different implementation for each [26:12] system. Like when you set it all up, [26:13] like maybe you're hosting your own back [26:15] end or something like that. I don't [26:16] know. But all I know is I typed in a [26:18] username [26:19] and it changed my username without [26:21] telling me on the back end. It took off [26:23] a letter and made it all caps and I [26:26] figured it out because I know to sit [26:28] there and be like, forgot password. What [26:30] does it mean that username doesn't [26:32] exist? And like try different [26:33] combinations and figure out what [26:34] happened. And I was on the phone with [26:37] one of their like I I don't know if it [26:39] was patient advocacy or like [26:40] specifically to the setup of this tool [26:42] and I was describing what happened and [26:43] she just went, "I never would have [26:45] figured that out. We can't be doing [26:47] that." I was like, "Yes, you can't just [26:50] change the username without telling the [26:51] person." And they were like, "I'm I'm [26:53] going to put in a priority ticket for [26:55] that one." And I was like, "Thank you." [26:57] Or like just sometimes just sitting with [26:59] like customer service people and they'll [27:01] be talking about like, "I'm so sorry the [27:03] system is acting so weird." I'm like, [27:04] you don't have to explain anything to [27:06] me. We'll be here until the technology [27:07] starts working again. That is totally [27:09] fine. And the friends that'll make you [27:11] in customer service, those poor people. [27:13] on the topic of diversity, inclusion, [27:16] you've been very generous in sharing [27:18] about your experience with ADHD and um [27:21] specifically sharing about, you know, [27:22] being vulnerable about the challenges [27:25] and it definitely not being a [27:27] superpower, but in some cases it [27:29] allowing you to do pretty amazing things [27:32] like cram through an entire topic area [27:34] in like one night if you really care [27:36] about it. [27:36] >> Yeah. Um, can would you share a little [27:39] bit more about like how you kind of hold [27:41] those two things in contrast of sort of [27:43] the advantages and also the struggles [27:47] and how you balance those two without [27:50] diminishing either. [27:51] >> Yeah. Uh, the joke, you guys are [27:53] bringing out all my spicy hot takes. I [27:55] swear I have like three and it's all [27:57] three of them. But anytime anybody tells [28:00] me that ADHD is a superpower, I'm [28:03] looking them in the eyes maybe and I'm [28:06] thinking, "So, who is running your life? [28:09] Is it a wife? Is it a partner? Is it a [28:11] mom? Like, is that who's making sure [28:13] that you make it to appointments? Who's [28:14] making sure you make appointments? Who's [28:16] making sure that you like have some sort [28:18] of structure to your day?" And like it's [28:21] amazing how with the difference between [28:23] like going into an office and having [28:25] that externally enforced structure and [28:27] then having to do it yourself at home [28:29] remote. Um because I think a lot of [28:31] people got diagnosed because lockdown [28:33] happened and they were like where's [28:36] someone telling me that I have to be [28:37] somewhere by 8 a.m. Like that's I I [28:39] don't have to do that anymore. I'm just [28:41] pajamas all day. So I got diagnosed at [28:44] 28. And I didn't get diagnosed because I [28:47] was failing at school or anything. I've [28:49] always been good at school because of [28:50] the externally inforced structure and [28:52] the little rewards. Oh, you get an A. [28:55] Okay, I'll do anything for an A. Let's [28:57] do that. But like once it came to like [29:00] wedding planning was a really big like I [29:01] thought I was losing my mind during [29:02] wedding planning and then remote work [29:05] and just getting so hyperfocused on [29:07] coding because I love coding and I want [29:09] to be in the puzzle and like I'll just [29:11] try one more thing and then 8 hours have [29:13] gone by and I haven't eaten, drank, done [29:15] anything which one of the things I found [29:17] through an ADHD coach that have been [29:19] really helping with that is physical [29:20] pomodoro timers. So, um, when it goes [29:22] off, you can just flip it to set it to [29:24] the next amount of time. And even if I [29:26] don't get up, I at least know how much [29:28] time is passing versus just being like, [29:30] I'm full in. So, the things the reasons [29:33] that I got diagnosed were more [29:35] intangible than is usually the reasons [29:38] that you go in. It was me being like, I [29:39] feel like I'm bad at things. I'm [29:41] struggling so hard. I'm trying so hard [29:43] all the time just to do the things that [29:45] everybody else seems to be able to do [29:47] normally. Like, the grocery store is [29:48] very difficult for me. So, it was really [29:52] like first it was a trickle of like [29:53] memes. There was a meme about [29:55] hyperactivity in adults that sounds it [29:57] was like almost constantly singing a [29:59] song, can't sit still, likes to fidget [30:01] with a lot of things, blah blah blah [30:03] blah blah. And the fidgeting I had [30:04] internalized to chewing my lips, so it [30:06] wasn't as like noticeable, but I showed [30:08] it to my husband and he looked at the [30:10] list and he was like, "hm". And I was [30:12] like, "Yeah, that's kind of sounds like [30:14] me, right?" And then he's he got [30:16] diagnosed in college because he [30:18] described what was going on with him to [30:20] me and I was like that sounds like ADHD. [30:22] And it turned out a a doctor in like his [30:24] in like middle school told his mom that [30:26] he couldn't have ADHD cuz his teachers [30:28] liked him. So we've come a long way in [30:29] like the description of what ADHD is. [30:32] But my brother got diagnosed young and [30:34] we we laugh now because we think and act [30:37] so similarly. So similarly. The signs [30:40] were all there. The like complaints [30:41] about how I tell stories. The fact that [30:43] I couldn't sit still. the fact that I [30:44] have to try really hard not to interrupt [30:46] people and like taking struggling to [30:48] take turns. Uh [30:50] I love running D and D. I love being a [30:54] dungeon master, but Balders's Gate, you [30:57] would have to bribe me to start again [30:59] because you have to wait on everybody [31:00] else's turn. Like you can't even you [31:03] can't even make a dice tower or do [31:04] anything with your like you just have to [31:06] sit there with a control in your hand [31:07] while other people are taking their [31:08] turn. And is the one thing that I don't [31:10] like about playing D and D. my friend [31:11] who's a DM like knows that I'll just [31:14] pull out knitting in the middle of DT [31:16] and then I'll be I'll be better I'll be [31:17] paying more attention if I'm knitting [31:19] it's okay and like when I was in school [31:21] teachers were like would you stop [31:23] drawing and like would try to ask me [31:25] questions to show that I wasn't paying [31:26] attention but then I would answer the [31:27] questions so they were like fine you can [31:29] draw whatever you be you and there were [31:32] a lot of things that were keeping me [31:33] going during up through 12th grade sleep [31:35] deprivation caffeine and then I got to [31:37] college and it was just easier than my [31:39] previous schooling So, I managed to get [31:41] through that, but by the end of the [31:42] college, like I couldn't finish a book [31:44] anymore. Like, I was really burnt out on [31:47] school and like trying so hard and all [31:49] of that kind of stuff. So, when I [31:51] finally sat down and I had gotten [31:53] diagnosed with anxiety erroneously [31:55] because that's usually women are like, [31:56] I'm struggling with all these things. [31:58] You're really anxious about things. It's [31:59] like, I don't really think I'm that [32:00] worried about other than like the [32:02] outcome if it doesn't get done, which is [32:05] normal. That seems like a normal thing [32:06] to be anxious about. And so I sat down [32:08] and I took the questionnaire that uh you [32:11] can you can find them online. Um it's [32:13] what a psychiatrist will give you if you [32:14] go to get diagnosed. And it basically [32:16] asks questions like, you know, do you do [32:19] you find yourself getting out of your [32:20] seat in situations where you're supposed [32:22] to be sitting down like meetings? Do you [32:24] find yourself struggling to not [32:26] interrupt people? Do you struggle with [32:28] this? Do you struggle with this? And I [32:29] think like the max score is like 21 and [32:33] I got like 17 or something. And I was [32:35] sitting there just staring at this piece [32:36] of paper and I was like, and because my [32:38] brother and my husband had already been [32:40] diagnosed a long time and we had looked [32:42] at a bunch of different, you know, the [32:43] Pomodoro method and this and that and he [32:45] can't do gamification. If he knows it's [32:46] gamified, he's like, no, I'm out. So [32:48] that doesn't work for him. But I was [32:50] like, I can apply all of these things to [32:52] my own life. People are like, you're so [32:53] organized. I'm like, because I have 18 [32:55] systems working in tandem, and if one of [32:57] them falls out, then like everything [32:58] spirals out of control, and I have to go [33:00] like integrate them back in and like add [33:01] another tool. Like, oh, this one's [33:03] shiny. It might be notion or obsidian [33:05] and then I've also got the bullet [33:06] journal and I've got this and I've got [33:08] that and there all of that is because I [33:12] eventually just stopped expecting myself [33:14] to remember things. I stopped expecting [33:17] myself to act in situations like other [33:20] people would act. I stopped expecting [33:22] all of these things out of myself. I [33:24] stopped expecting myself to be [33:25] neurotypical. And I was able to set a [33:28] lot of things down. And suddenly my life [33:30] became a lot easier. Because up until [33:32] then there would be times where I would [33:34] be like on the floor just crying going [33:36] like, "I'm trying so hard." And my [33:38] husband would be like, "I just wish [33:39] people could see how hard you're trying. [33:40] You're trying so hard. Yeah, you're [33:42] doing it. You're doing great." But like [33:45] once you sit there and start being like, [33:47] "Okay, well, I'm going to have to sit [33:48] still for a while. Let's make sure I [33:50] have a silent fidget toy near me so that [33:52] it's not like making noise and people [33:54] aren't like disturbed by it, but I am [33:57] able to sit there and not chew my lip [33:58] and like try to focus on what's [34:00] happening and writing everything down [34:02] instead of expecting myself to remember [34:04] it and all of these things. It really [34:07] like more than feeling like I am now [34:11] labeled as disabled because ADHD is [34:13] considered a disability, a cognitive [34:14] disability. It showed me how many tools [34:17] there are that I can have even without [34:20] expecting my employer to like give me [34:22] more time to do things or like having to [34:24] ask for accommodations or anything like [34:26] that. Just the small things where like [34:28] object permanence is hard. So if I want [34:30] to remember something exists, it it has [34:32] to be like in a place that I go to [34:33] regularly where I can see it. Like those [34:35] little things start to add up and [34:37] suddenly you're like, "Wow, my life is [34:40] more designed for me." One of the [34:42] reasons it's the best book is because [34:43] it's short. it's easy and it helps you [34:46] set a lot of those things down. And [34:49] everybody was like, "Hey honey, you have [34:50] ADHD." She was like, "What?" And she had [34:52] just found all of these accommodations. [34:54] Like, you don't have to unload the [34:55] entire dishwasher at once. Blew my mind. [34:58] I was like, "I can just do the the [35:00] glasses and that's 10%." And then I [35:02] that's still progress. And so that [35:04] carries over a lot into, you know, we [35:06] talk about finding time to do the kind [35:09] of content that we do and the writing [35:10] and all of that kind of stuff. And so [35:12] like I'll often start 10% of a blog and [35:14] be like I'm not feeling it right now. [35:15] And then suddenly I'll be feeling it and [35:16] be able to finish the 90% later. Um and [35:21] when it comes to understanding that it [35:24] can also be a boon, this has really come [35:27] full circle because I remember the day [35:29] that I was like [35:31] I'm not going to force myself to be like [35:33] boring anymore. My husband was like what [35:35] are you talking about? And I was like [35:37] you know like a lot of like a lot of [35:39] people are like you need to be less [35:40] impulsive. you need to be less this. But [35:43] like the fun part of me is that I find I [35:46] can find joy in this in the tiniest of [35:48] things. Like I can get really excited [35:50] about the smallest of things and then [35:52] I'll get invested and then I'll be able [35:54] to do it. And a lot of the times what [35:56] people are describing that they're so [35:57] amazed by like how what I'm able to do [36:00] is me just being like, I want to do [36:02] that. I'm going to do that. And not [36:03] thinking about how hard it is and not [36:05] like just because I want to, I'm [36:06] hyperfocused on it. And that is the core [36:09] of ADHD. Like it, yes, it has its bad [36:11] side where like it makes other things [36:13] more difficult, you know, like when I [36:15] take my meds in the morning, I should [36:18] look at my to-do list for the day while [36:20] those are kicking in, not start a video [36:22] game. That could go wrong. But like the [36:24] meds are there to help you build those [36:26] kinds of habits. So like now when I go [36:28] to eat lunch, I think, oh, I should [36:29] unload like the dishwasher a little bit. [36:31] And building up those little tasks with [36:33] the help of medication has been really [36:35] helpful. I also found help in a um ADHD [36:38] coach who really started questioning a [36:41] lot of negative selft talk that I was [36:43] giving myself and I thought I had like [36:45] really cured a lot of that and I'm I'm a [36:47] big people do negative selft talk in [36:49] front of me and I'll be like no no no we [36:51] are great we're dandy do not say those [36:53] things and uh you know just like a lot [36:57] of shoulds should I should be doing this [37:00] why should I be doing that oh I don't [37:01] know because well is it serving you like [37:04] we don't need to do that and then Um, [37:06] there's a website called Ask Jan, J A N, [37:10] and it will tell you all the [37:12] accommodations you can ask your employer [37:14] for. So, if you have a disability or [37:16] have been thinking, you know, like, is [37:18] there anything that could make my life [37:20] better at work with what I have, ADHD, [37:22] whatever, there is a list of things by [37:25] disability that you can ask your [37:26] employer for legally. And so, I find [37:28] that helps a lot of people think about [37:30] like what they need at work. [37:32] Mine is a lot of flexibility, which [37:34] they're willing to give me, so I haven't [37:36] had to ask for it. It's It's definitely [37:39] You'll find that when you're the kind of [37:41] person who knows that if you're handed a [37:44] problem, you'll be able to solve it. [37:45] That really opens a lot of doors for you [37:48] as an employee because if you become [37:50] known as the person where like, "Oh, [37:52] this is really tough. Abby will just [37:53] figure it out." Then you, you know, you [37:55] got you got a little bit of job [37:56] security. you're the person, you know, [37:58] you may get a couple heart attacks and [37:59] like prod bugs that you need to solve [38:01] immediately, but like it helps when, you [38:03] know, you're having one of those neurode [38:05] divergent days where you've done 16 [38:08] hours of work in 8 hours yesterday and [38:10] now you cannot do work. So, it's a [38:11] balance. And a study came out recently [38:14] that was showing that ADHD does have [38:17] some powerful strengths as long as you [38:18] recognize that and also feel that that [38:21] is a strength of yours. It really felt [38:23] when I was in Paris last year giving the [38:26] talk at.js JS uh about coding in ADHD [38:29] where we excel. Like it was a full [38:32] circle moment for me because I had come [38:34] so far in about four years from being [38:36] like why does my brain not work when I [38:39] need to do things like why do I get [38:41] couch locked to yeah I get couch locked [38:43] sometimes but also I'm taking in all of [38:46] the information that other brains don't [38:48] take in and so I'm able to make all of [38:50] these connections and I'm able to work [38:51] on things that I'm interested in harder [38:53] and faster than a lot of people. So, it [38:56] it does it's a give and take. It's it's [38:58] like anything else in life where like [39:00] yeah, meat suits are great, but you also [39:02] gota like feed them and water them and [39:04] like give them sunlight and like it's [39:07] it's how life is. So, hopefully that [39:09] answered your question. It was a it was [39:10] a long rant for sure. I muted myself. [39:13] That was uh No, it was such a [39:15] comprehensive answer and like I was just [39:17] nodding along like for anyone listening. [39:19] I'm like, "Yes, this is awesome." I [39:22] don't have ADHD, but I so many of the [39:24] things you mentioned are things that [39:26] like are beneficial to me like [39:28] flexibility and having a remote job and [39:30] like doing chipping away at things. And [39:33] I think this just kind of comes full [39:34] circle to like accessibility benefits [39:37] everyone. Like that flexibility benefits [39:39] everyone. And the more we can normalize [39:40] that and making things work for people [39:43] and meeting them where they are, like [39:45] the better the world is, the better the [39:47] internet is and all that. And I think [39:48] like just the core of that is employers [39:51] having trust and like trusting you hired [39:55] the right person and they will get the [39:57] job done. Like it doesn't matter if they [39:58] do it the way that 90% of people do it. [40:01] It just matters that you give that trust [40:04] and you convey like requirements and [40:06] like that's really all it takes. So I [40:09] really really appreciate you sharing all [40:11] that. Also yes negative selft talk. I [40:13] find that I've noticed some colleagues [40:16] especially women will often like do [40:18] negative selft talk and it's something [40:20] that like frustrates me so much because [40:22] it's like you're like you're diminishing [40:24] yourself in front of other other women [40:26] other people like who are younger and [40:28] it's like what what are they taking from [40:30] that like if you're not good at this am [40:32] I not good at this and things like that [40:35] so it's like harmful for you it's [40:37] harmful for other people like build each [40:38] other up build yourself up and yeah [40:41] >> it's so funny because When people do it [40:43] in front of me, it's not like I'm like, [40:45] you know, like it would just be better [40:46] if like we didn't do. I'm like, no, I [40:49] think you're awesome. You think you're [40:50] awesome. That's not how this works. And [40:52] so they're like startled and then [40:53] they're like, you know what? Okay, fine. [40:57] >> I love that. [40:58] >> But it I uh I worked in high volume MSP [41:01] recruiting for 5 years before I switched [41:02] to coding. And one of the things that I [41:04] tell people a lot is that people are [41:07] hiring for can you do the job. That's [41:09] that's actually what they're like. Can [41:11] you get your work and then do the work [41:13] and then hand in the work on like a [41:15] deadline and can you keep track of that [41:16] is really what people are hiring for. [41:19] And when you can communicate to that [41:21] more than anything else, that will help [41:23] you get jobs. Like I think a lot of [41:25] people get distracted by like I need to [41:26] have 30,000 tools on my resume and like [41:28] I need to know all the languages and [41:30] it's like you need to be able to say [41:31] that I can solve whatever problem you [41:33] throw me and like I can learn if I don't [41:35] know it. And that's that's what people [41:37] are expecting. So, you know, I say, but [41:39] the market's a little bit different than [41:40] it was in 2021. So, take that with a [41:43] grain of salt. [41:44] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I wish I [41:46] could put on my resume. I get I get it [41:48] done. I [41:48] >> get stuff done. [41:49] >> I get it. Yeah. [41:51] >> Absolutely. Well, we are coming up at [41:53] time, but this has been such an [41:55] insightful conversation. I really [41:59] appreciate you sharing your perspectives [42:00] on all these, sharing all the spicy [42:02] takes. I love it. I mean, I think that [42:04] they are very valid takes, honestly. [42:07] Thank you. [42:08] >> Thank you for sharing. So, pivoting into [42:11] our fun segment. I know like you [42:13] mentioned that you enjoy coding like fun [42:16] little lily little silly dumb projects [42:20] and so I figured we could take some time [42:22] to go around and share maybe what the [42:26] dumbest thing that we've ever coded was. [42:28] So, I can kick it off. It was tough for [42:30] me to think of something because I am [42:33] just not frontend minded unfortunately [42:36] and I feel I'm trying I'm trying but I [42:38] feel like it's if you code something [42:40] dumb on the back end it's like a [42:42] production issue waiting to happen or [42:44] something. So but the thing I I came up [42:46] with was it's still a thing now but uh [42:48] there's a website called Battlesnake [42:51] >> where you basically program an API to [42:54] play competitive snake with other [42:56] people. It's amazing. It's awesome. And [42:59] so that's probably I had a a monthsl [43:03] long fixation on on this project and I [43:07] was just like throwing everything at the [43:09] snake. I'm like how can I make it [43:10] perform and how can I make this better [43:13] than everyone else's and it never was [43:15] very good. But um I was very about um [43:18] building the best snake that I could. I [43:22] feel like I've never finished any of my [43:23] dumb projects. Um cuz at some point I [43:27] realize that they're dumb and then I [43:29] stop. Um but I did get about like [43:31] halfway through creating [43:34] um like an Exploding Kittens game, like [43:38] an online Exploding Kittens, which I'm [43:41] remembering now and like it actually [43:43] feels less dumb now and feels like [43:44] something I would pick up again. Um, and [43:48] yeah, that [43:50] fun fun dumb. [43:52] That's so smart. I feel like any game [43:54] you can play remotely, especially after [43:55] all of the like crossword sessions we [43:57] have had. [43:58] >> Yeah. [43:59] >> Like any game you can play remotely is [44:01] great because remote workers are going [44:03] to use that as their as their thing and [44:06] you know, [44:06] >> people are going to get together. I [44:08] would love to play your exploding [44:09] kittens game. [44:10] >> Okay, I'll pick it back up. [44:12] >> Please do. Yeah, I think the um I've [44:15] shared this before already on the [44:17] podcast, but the likelihood of somebody [44:19] listening to every single episode is [44:20] probably quite low. So, I think that the [44:22] dumbest thing I've ever coded is [44:24] probably my GitHub commit graph GAN [44:28] website only because I thought this was [44:31] such a great idea when I first did it. [44:33] And now I am making the graph gan [44:37] and realizing how awful it is to [44:41] actually make this thing because I'm [44:43] switching colors so often and that's [44:45] really hard in crochet. I mean I'm sure [44:47] it's hard in knitting and stuff too, but [44:48] like in crochet it's terrible and I've [44:51] weaved in like a million ends and I'm [44:53] like this was such a bad idea. I'm still [44:56] going to finish it. But it is definitely [44:59] what I have been thinking about. I was [45:00] like, "This is the dumbest thing I've [45:02] ever made. Why did I do this to myself?" [45:04] I remember the look of pure joy you had [45:06] when you uh when you thought of this, [45:08] too. It really is like a passion [45:11] project. [45:11] >> I know. It's come full circle now. I [45:13] just need to finish it so I can get it [45:15] out of my head and be done with it. [45:19] >> Once you get to your vi coding days, [45:21] it's pure pure emerald green. [45:24] >> Yeah, it's true. I was legitimately mad [45:27] when the first time I changed colors in [45:28] knitting knitting because I was like [45:29] there's nothing to this. It's so easy. [45:31] Why is it so easy compared to crochet? [45:33] There's still we there's still weaving [45:34] in ends, but it's not like a whole like [45:36] you have to figure out where the Anyway, [45:38] point being I have two examples. And [45:40] funnily enough, the finished one is a [45:43] backend project. When I graduated boot [45:45] camp, I was like, I'm done these skills. [45:47] Now, what do I want to do? create a [45:50] Discord bot that will send a dog picture [45:52] to anyone who mentions a dog in my [45:54] Discord. My husband was like, you know, [45:58] you have to put commands on that. You [46:00] can't just like have anyone mention a [46:01] dog and a dog picture show up. And I was [46:03] like, okay, so they can request dog [46:05] photos, I guess. That was the thing. And [46:08] then [46:09] uh my sister is engaged and this is her [46:13] idea and I have to figure out how to [46:15] make it happen. And I'm sorry that I'm [46:17] calling it dumb Sydney, but it is a [46:18] perfect example. So, she wants on her [46:20] wedding website for there to be a date. [46:22] The fruit. The fruit. A date. And it's [46:25] gonna have a bomb on it. So, it's going [46:26] to be very concerned. This is going to [46:28] be a very scared date. And to save the [46:31] date, the fruit. You have to type in the [46:34] date of the wedding. And I have to [46:36] figure out how to make that happen. This [46:38] is my job as sister of the bride. And I [46:41] was like, I'm honored. And I know about [46:42] how to do about 50% of that. So that's [46:44] going to be fun. [46:47] That is amazing. [46:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. So at me if you have tips, I [46:51] guess I might have to buy the Josh Kimo [46:53] coins. [46:54] >> Honestly. Honestly. All right. Well, [46:56] that is very fun. I'm so excited to see [46:59] what you come up with there. Please post [47:01] updates on the save the date. [47:04] >> We'll do and super excited about that. [47:07] So for wrapping up, where can folks find [47:09] you? [47:11] So, if you can spell a pirini, a bb p I [47:15] N I.dev.com.shop, [47:18] I got stickers, I got a digital garden, [47:20] I got.dev has like my upcoming speaking [47:22] and stuff like that. And then my handle [47:25] is Abby Perini everywhere now, I think. [47:28] So, Blue Sky things, I'm in places, [47:31] GitHub, I'm there. You can find me. It's [47:34] the SEO is great for this name. [47:36] >> Awesome. Yes, props for having unique [47:38] names. Um, but thank you for joining. [47:41] Really, really appreciated our [47:42] conversations. And to our listeners, [47:44] thank you so much for tuning in to [47:46] Overcommitted. If you like what you [47:47] hear, please do follow, subscribe, or do [47:49] whatever it is you like to do on the [47:50] podcast app of your choice. Check us out [47:52] on Blue Sky and Discord, and share with [47:57] your friends. Until next week. Bye.