Episode 1: How I Learned What Sustainability Is  ## Metadata - Author: [[Sustain WP]] - Full Title: Episode 1: How I Learned What Sustainability Is - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/2e85a932-4c80-4f04-8e60-7e4da82e735c ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Nahuai's Path to Sustainability** - Nahuai Badiola shares how he transitioned from neuroscience research to WordPress freelance work. - Attending a 2019 talk on website environmental impact was his tipping point to explore digital sustainability. Transcript: Nahuai Badiola Welcome to SustainWP, a limited series podcast about digital sustainability and WordPress. I'm your host, Nawai Badiola, and in this episode, I will explain you how I got into WordPress and sustainability, and more importantly, how I learned what sustainability is. For this part, I will be joined by Hannah Smith, who had a key role on how I approach the topic nowadays. In the previous episode, I promised you to tell who the hell I am. And since you will be experiencing this journey through my lens, I think it makes sense to know at least how I got into WordPress and sustainability. I have a degree on biology, so you could think, aha, that's where the environmental care or interest come from. I'm not saying not, but my PhD was in neuroscience, so the link is not that obvious. I did some postdocs, but even if I love doing research, the scientist lifestyle was not aligned with how I wanted to live. So I decided to become a freelance, to have more time and freedom. Yep, you can laugh, I'm aware that I'm an optimist, grounded, but an optimist nevertheless. Long story short, around 2014, I found WordPress and I fell in love with its community. Don't get me wrong, the software was great, it's even better now, but the people involved with the project tops that. It took me some time to learn the ropes of being a freelance and become a WordPress developer, but I could say I managed to do it. I also started to get involved with the community, being a meetup and WordCamp speaker, a volunteer, or organizing a meetup in my town. Okay, that covers pretty much the WordPress part, but what about the sustainability? The inflection point was when I attended to a talk in Workamp Pontevedra 2019 by Roberto Vázquez who talked about the environmental impact of the websites. The rationale behind it is quite simple and obvious. The websites are hosted in servers that need energy and most of it come from fossil fuels, but I never thought about it before. So in that moment, I decided to investigate more about it. During the last years, I've been sharing my learnings through my blog, newsletter, and podcast, and I also gave some talks in meetups and workshops about the topic. ([Time 0:00:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/27306326-1962-4df3-9494-146573a8a6bd)) - **Hannah’s Sustainability Awakening** - Hannah Smith was inspired by sustainability talks at WordCamp Europe 2018 and 2019. - These events ignited her interest and led to a career shift towards digital sustainability. Transcript: Hannah Smith It's such a good question. I know that your journey mirrors my journey very, very similarly. So I think this story will be a little familiar to you. For me, I remember going to WordCamp Europe in Belgrade in 2018. And I remember looking around in that conference and thinking wow no one here is talking about sustainability in any way shape or form like no no thought of environment issues sustainability In any regard digital or not and I remember thinking I really feel like the WordPress community is missing missing a trick here um actually when I went to WordCamp Europe the next year In Berlin in 2019 there was a talk so something shifted even in that first year and it was Jack Lennox who was giving that talk I've always been interested in sustainability and environmental Issues full stop you know before I got into digital sustainability so when I saw Jack's talk in 2019 I was like oh I'm really interested in this I've really got to go um so Jack's talk was A real kind of light bulb moment for me where I heard Jack speaking and I was like oh my god yeah, there's this whole relationship between energy and Internet and resource use and tech That I had never, ever thought about before. So WordCamp Europe, Berlin was a really, really important point for me. And then related to that was when I was running my own WordCamp. So I ran WordCamp Bristol in 2019. And related to that point that I made at the beginning about going to WordCamp Europe in Belgrade in 2018, I was really determined to try and do something within the WordPress community Around sustainability. So when I did WordCamp Europe in 2019, so that was in May of 2019, I really, really wanted some sustainability themed talks at that conference, at that WordCamp. And we ended up having Whole Grain Digital come along. We also had a local speaker uh joss um from a company called enviral but would um whole grain digital spoke about the same topic as jack they spoke about digital sustainability in relation To websites the reason why i mentioned jack's talk first was because when you run a word camp you don't get to watch any of the talks live. So I didn't actually watch Holgrain Digital's talk until after WordCamp Berlin when I came home and I was watching all the recordings that we made of all the talks. So whilst in real time, the Holgrain Digital talk was first, I didn't actually watch it until after I saw Jack's talk but essentially those two things came along for me at the same time And both gave me that light bulb moment and really got me interested in this topic. ([Time 0:03:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a09bed5a-668b-4280-bfd0-63bdce395713)) - **Green Web Foundation’s Mission** - The Green Web Foundation advocates for a fossil-free internet by 2030. - Their tools help identify websites hosted on green energy and promote sustainable hosting alternatives. Transcript: Hannah Smith Yeah, so my digital sustainability journey has ended up with me now being Director of Operations at the Green Web Foundation, of which I'm incredibly proud. And it's very much a pinch me moment when I look around and think, how did that happen? How did I get here? But I feel very happy to be in this organization. And the Green Web Foundation is a nonprofit organization. So we're based in the Netherlands with some of the team over in Berlin. I'm in the UK, as you might be able to tell by my accent, for those of you listening. And what the Green Web Foundation does is we are advocating for a just and sustainable internet. And specifically, we talk a lot about getting the internet to be fossil free by 2030. So we're very, very interested in the resources the energy that powers the Internet, because as we both know from those talks that inspired us to learn more about this topic, it's pretty Important. And we do that in a number of different ways. Many people, I think, if they're interested in digital sustainability, might well have come across our tools. I know the Green web foundation tools are some of the first things i found when i was interested in this journey so we've got this really cool little thing you can put in any website uh url Um and you can find out whether that's hosted on green energy or not so is that hosting company buying green energy, using green energy or otherwise using offsets to make their energy Green? It's a really cool tool. It sounds so simple. But crikey, now I work at the Green Web Foundation, I realize just how much complexity goes into making that tool. So we've got that as a really cool tool. We've also got the Green Web directory, which we have just launched a beta version of, which I am super proud of. And that is where you can look for alternative hosting suppliers. Nahuai Badiola You're all verified green. That's the directory I usually point out in my talks when I talk about it. It's like the reference. Hannah Smith It is. I don't know if you've seen our new beta version yet, but it's like loads better. Like, yeah, I'm very, very proud. Nahuai Badiola I remember the old one. I don't think I see the, I saw the new one. The old one was pretty much, at least it wasn't too appealing for the design point of view. Hannah Smith But yeah, it's been my summer project, basically. We had funding for and it's my summer project and i think you'll see the um potential anyway i digress um so we have these open tools we also have an open source software package called Co2.js which allows people to measure the co2 emissions of websites and that huge, hugely popular. It's used in like... Nahuai Badiola Yeah, a lot of tools are built on top of that. They are using it as a library, right? Hannah Smith Basically, yeah. I mean, pretty much that's the aim of the game for our tools is they're all open source and they become part of the infrastructure of how we measure co2 emissions or and the long-term gain Is how we measure the sustainability of the internet by bringing in other factors as well i know we're going to talk about some of those other factors in a bit because those other factors Were something i explored a lot in my fellowship too yeah ([Time 0:09:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1db0996c-1a1f-407c-a047-fa00c8799359)) - **Pivoting to Donut Economics** - Hannah's fellowship project evolved from a campaign to a workshop using Donut Economics. - This broadened sustainability beyond carbon footprint to include social and economic factors. Transcript: Hannah Smith Well, my experience was very much as you described it. Very supportive atmosphere. I learned loads. I had my mind expanded in all kinds of different ways that I wasn't really expecting. You know I crikey when I started the fellowship that the idea of the core idea or the core research question of the fellowship is to explore how well the proper term is how digital rights And climate justice intersect or how they relate to one another in in sort of slightly more straightforward language and I started honestly with not really feeling I understood what Digital rights meant or really what climate justice meant I had a lot of imposter syndrome throughout the whole of the fellowship because I just hadn't I really didn't understand these Terms at all. And, you know, there were a few people who were like, Dr. Fika, who was just finishing a PhD. And I said to Chris a couple of times, are you sure I should be here? Like, are you, you know, did you make a mistake asking me to come along? But actually what I realised was that I did, I had my mind expanded. And because I was exploring a lot of these issues for the first time, I blogged about it a lot. Just being really honest about what I was learning, what I was struggling with, what I did and didn't understand, which is not really very much to start with. But actually, having come out the other end of it, being able to reflect on that whole transformative journey and being able to allow other people to feel comfortable with not knowing These things as well was really, really good, actually. So it was, I think I used this phrase already, a very mind expanding process for me. And so you asked me about the project as well. I think you wanted me to... Yeah, where did the idea come from? Nahuai Badiola I want to reflect also on that point of being honest and open about you don't really know about some concepts because the same happened to me. I was already warm because I was already talking with you every now and then and I knew about your process also you were blogging quite a lot that was nice to see like kind of a diary and I Tried to mimic in some way in my in my three posts by now and I was also chatting with other fellows that explaining your experience like be honest you don't have to explain in your first Post what you really want to do and you know everything no the idea is to learn during the process and you can be honest about it and there is no problem with that so thanks for for opening The way for others that's cool yeah yeah and then going back to the idea because i really like the idea so i really want to know how you put the pieces together i did know but i want other people Hannah Smith Also to know how did you put the pieces together and came up with the project yeah yeah I mean I think I would just before we move on would say what an amazing opportunity that fellowship Was for me um I think you feel the same as well I have never had in my whole life the experience of just learning for learning's sake and that's really what the fellowship felt like for me Um you know school university you've got exams or you've got uh specific objectives you're trying to meet with the fellowship it felt like this wonderful gift of just being able to go Off and explore things that were interesting and so that's how my project came about because I started off with like wanting to do another version of this campaign that I'd run called Let's green the web and that was something I did with climateaction.tech and the idea of climate of the campaign let's green the web was to raise awareness about the fact that websites Have a co2 emission and that we can actually think about measuring through the use of energy, the CO2 emissions of using software. So Let's Green the Web was primarily a Twitter campaign asking people to take a website that they like, measure it, and if it was performing badly, to tell them about it. It was a really simple idea. It was good fun. I really enjoyed doing it. So I started with the fellowship I was like well how can I do let's green the web part two where can I take some of these ideas that I'm learning from the fellowship about a deeper definition Of sustainability and how could I apply that to the next version of let's green the web so my ideas were like you know there's more to sustainability than just co2 emissions and as the Fellowship progressed i became quite annoyed quite unnerved by this fact that people were equating website sustainability as only being about co2 emissions and how much energy was Being used. That became a very simple equation, but sustainability is much broader than that. And so when I was exploring this what on earth climate justice meant, this part of the research question, started to really find different ways of articulating and exploring what sustainability Meant and so there is a blog post that I wrote where I spent oh my god I fell down this enormous research hole I must have spent about a month three weeks a month just trying to understand What sustainability meant I was just reading everything and clicking links and falling down research holes all over the place but what I suffered on was donor economics um the donor Economics framework became the most accessible and understandable way of exploring sustainability and pivoted my research project instead of trying to figure out how to apply a Broad definition of sustainability or donor economics to let's green the web I thought you know what first of all I'm just going to forget the let's green the web idea and I'm just going To explore this idea of using donor economics to try and articulate what digital sustainability is so I came up with this workshop idea and you and many other fantastic people from CAT All decided to come along to this workshop and the idea of the workshop was to look at the 21 dimensions ([Time 0:15:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/582360a1-2845-4972-9357-86d14cb8cf62)) - **Honesty in Learning Sustainability** - Be honest and open about not knowing sustainability concepts in early work. - Document your learning journey to help others feel comfortable starting from scratch. Transcript: Nahuai Badiola I went as a participant to to the to the workshop and i found it really an lightning and really clever way to try to expand the view and try to avoid this carbon carbon tunnel vision that We have and i even now that i know that their sustainability is more, when I communicated, I find that the best examples and everything, it goes to the carbon because it's easier to have Numbers or to have examples. Do one step aside or back and take the bigger picture so that was the worship and it was with other people and it was super interactive I remember having a mirror board that was plenty with Plenty of post-its and ideas and then you because you run it in in different groups I was on one of them I think we were like four five six people, but you run it, I don't, I think like four Or five times. And then you did together, three times, together with Alistair, you did a really nice write-up about it. So I will put the link to doingthedonut.com, the link, because I think it was a big, big effort to put the idea before, and the mirror and everything, and run there. But then the exercise of trying to summarize and having a conclusion, you did a great work together with Alistair. So, yeah. Hannah Smith Yeah, well, thank you. That's really kind. It was a good effort. It was very enjoyable, though, and I learned loads from it. And I think we should mention Alistair more formally here, because the fellowship came with a project sub-budget. So we had a few thousand euros that we could spend however we wanted to support the project. Alistair was someone Alistair Alexander was someone I had met through CAT and we'd already had some chats about exploring the donut and I was actually able to use some of that budget To get a bit of Alistair's time I mean he put way more time in than I was able to pay him for of course but it was nice to be able to kind of show him some uh you know to to give him something as a Sign of gratitude and appreciation for all the effort that he put in because he helped me run the workshops and he helped me assimilate uh assimilate all of that information and that Was weeks and weeks and weeks of work um hundreds of comments hundreds of cross post-it notes linking everywhere but yes and i wrote it up really thoroughly in doing the donut.tech um Nahuai Badiola So it's a very comprehensive write-up of where things got to yeah yeah right it's.tech it's not.com so i will put the the right link in the show notes and also I would like to talk about The pivoting part because I'm also experienced that part. And it's super nice to have a space to explore, do some research. ([Time 0:23:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/221068ba-f27d-449e-9e80-695d70d13869)) - **Value Flexible Learning Time** - Use unbounded time to explore sustainability ideas and pivot when needed. - Such freedom is transformative and helps deepen understanding and impact. Transcript: Hannah Smith So go ahead and here we are but I think that's the beauty of having that kind of unboundaried time to kind of wander through different ideas try things out I mean it's a real gift to have And I know it's something you and I have talked about a lot how we can make that a possibility for more people within the WordPress community because it it's truly been a transformative Experience for me I mean I'm at the end of it sort of a year out of the end of it you haven't quite finished yet so I think you're still turning into the beautiful butterfly. Your metamorphosis is still happening. But yeah, it is quite an amazing thing to do. And I'm really glad that you chose to work on something that you are really good at as well. But I think we should come back to that point of taking the doing the donut workshops though and bringing them to WordPress because I still remain absolutely convinced that like you There's a really really good idea in there and I really think based on my experience of running my own fellowship project, just looking at how the conversations changed around what People regard sustainability is, and how broader people's horizons became, I really strongly believe that that's would be a beautiful thing to bring into the WordPress community. We've just got to find some funding to make that happen i think um to you know to really make it good because we know it's a lot of work and i think that's what you realized as well when you Were looking at it was like what this is this is enormous it's how i felt too um so i think that idea is still there and if anyone's listening and anyone has some good ideas as to how we could Make that happen give us a shout. ([Time 0:30:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f49b7a40-138b-43d1-a54a-161ac6f87485)) - **Worldview Shift through Sustainability** - Exploring digital sustainability led Hannah Smith to question capitalism and big tech practices. - Radical shifts in worldview may arise from learning about climate and tech intersections. Transcript: Hannah Smith I might say something quite radical, actually. So when I started the fellowship, I thought capitalism was brilliant. And I learned loads about why capitalism isn't brilliant, particularly maybe some of the more extreme versions of capitalism we have these days like neoliberalism I learned loads Of these terms I'd never really studied this stuff before and at the start of the fellowship I would have been very very very uncomfortable with saying things like I'm now uncomfortable With capitalism. I'm now uncomfortable with the way that a lot of our systems work. And I'm uncomfortable with the way that a lot of our tech, big tech companies work and operate. And those have been really big mindset shifts for me where in exploring, sorry, did my dog just part? She just went off on one in the background um she has opinions also yeah she does she definitely does she's like i agree hand um yeah i would say for me that was a big turning point where I Started to really face up to some of the political systems that we have and started to face up to some of the good parts but also some of the negative parts and to um start to broaden my horizons There around system change and what works and what doesn't. I'd probably always sat sort of somewhere in the center when it comes to politics. But yeah, I feel like that shifted for me as well, actually. And I really, really was not expecting that either from just learning and talking and thinking differently about things yeah yeah the ripple effect is is really amazing how can you Nahuai Badiola Start just hearing a simple idea like internet use energy and then you go down the rabbit hole and after a few months you are changing a bit your political point of view or your world worldview It's amazing how how these things work yeah yeah ([Time 0:33:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/402c299d-f160-41ec-8e24-1983b3ffc27b)) - **Three Pillars of Sustainability** - Sustainability includes three intertwined pillars: environment, social, and governance. - Social foundations are crucial and environmental efforts without inclusivity can cause harm. Transcript: Hannah Smith Yeah. So economics is something that's always interested me and I know we've talked a lot about donor economics and donor economics has a way of representing the three pillars which aren't Necessarily pillars, they're circles actually and I did A-level in economics so that's an English school qualification that you do between the ages of 16 and 18. So I did A-level economics and actually wanted to go to university to study economics, but ended up doing computer science. That's a podcast for another time. I've never been scared of economics, something that has economics in the title actually quite drawn to it and so in trying to understand what climate justice was we've mentioned this A little bit already i found myself reading all sorts of things about esg frameworks and ESG is basically a short shorthand for these three pillars of sustainability and three pillars Are the E is one of the pillars I wouldn't say the first because I don't think they come in order in one two three I think they're you know kind of everywhere everywhere all at once. Yep. Nahuai Badiola That's right. Hannah Smith So one of the pillars, the E-pillar is environment. And that talks about the limitations that the natural world imposes upon us. So it's where we think about what our ecosystems can provide and also what level of tension they can take from humans what levels of kind of change they can take from humans and we can talk A bit more about the e pillar in a bit but that's one of the pillars and that is the e of esg the second pillar or one of the other pillars is the s pillar which stands in the esg um terminology Stands for social social factors and in the donor economics framework it talks about this idea of a social foundation now this was completely new for me this whole idea of sustainability Having an a massive weighting around social factors. Big learning point for me, I always thought sustainability was more about the environmental side of things. But what I learned was that you can't think about the environment factors without thinking about people, without thinking about society, because these two things relate to each other. And if you just think about them in silos you end up doing really ridiculous things um and i kind of found some kind of quite interesting articles and case studies as part of the fellowship Around what happens when you just think about the environment with no people in it and basically you end up forcing indigenous people out of the lands that they naturally belong in and Actually loads of research around how indigenous people are actually beneficial for those environments because they've lived there for thousands of years and they've lived there Sustainably so it was really eye-opening for me this whole s found uh this whole s social foundation society pillar um and then and again you know there's there's loads we could unpack In that that in itself but then we'll come to the last pillar which is the g in esg that stands for governance um donor economics doesn't talk about the third pillar in quite the same way. The way I think about that G pillar, that G thing is around decision making and around how we value different things. And that's actually where economics, that's basically what economics is, is valuing stuff, how you value it. So in donor economics, they have this seven ways of thinking like a 21st century economist there's an absolutely awesome book called about it and for me those seven ways of thinking Which are uh which for me form the basis of that that third pillar that g governance pillar or that that third sort of set of things but i think yeah we should probably stop talking about Them as pillars because circles is a much better way to think about them overlapping circles because you can't think about one without the other and you just can't disentangle one set Of issues from another because there's touch points everywhere such interesting stuff yeah ([Time 0:36:54](https://share.snipd.com/snip/88400b83-5b26-496e-893f-f96d2e5596d8)) - **Pillars as Intertwined Strands** - The three sustainability pillars are intertwined like strands of a plaited rope. - This visual highlights their inseparability and mutual influence. Transcript: Hannah Smith Actually see when you and i talk we do always spark all these ideas and actually i just had an idea about a better way to represent the three pillars it actually might be like as a platted Rope um so like you know you have three strands but you know like you plait hair and you sort of make okay pigtails in in someone's hair actually the three pillars might be better represented As a plait because they weave in amongst each other. Maybe that's an idea we can put to Nora. Nahuai Badiola That's a nice idea. Yeah, I like it. Hannah Smith You end up with one rope, but it's made up of three individual parts that all weave in amongst each other because that's essentially what's going on, I think that's pretty visual ([Time 0:44:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/39b06b0e-8abf-4eee-995d-bbe183fd9ce9)) - **Launching WordPress Sustainability Team** - Nahuai and Hannah collaborated closely to launch the WordPress sustainability team. - Early efforts included posting on Make WordPress blog and engaging key community members. Transcript: Hannah Smith Both of us came from freelancing background. Both of us want to put more time into the WordPress community. You know, we've both done our fair shares of community organizing, running meetups, attending WordCamps, you know, contributor days, etc. And, you know, as you know and I know that this was the last part that we wanted to get on to is I was quite involved in helping you and I feel that it was very much about me facilitating you But I was very much involved in you wanting to get a sustainability team landed in WordPress and you set some meetings up and we were meeting regularly and it resulted in us, well, you Figuring out how do we get a post on the Make WordPress blog? You found the way and I, with the help of others, wrote that post and put it up there to sort of start talking about the need for a sustainability team. But I couldn't carry on with the work after we put that post out. Because of those issues we talked about, I was working as a freelancer and trying to start doing my role at the Green Web Foundation. And I just couldn't keep doing that level of work for free. I just couldn't financially make it work. And so you and I both feel so passionate about this idea of the long-term sustainability of WordPress in terms of opening up funding to people who aren't working for big companies, who Can, you know, therefore dedicate their skills and expertise and most importantly, unique perspective into the work of the project and particularly from a sustainability angle But I know that you know there's other teams that would benefit from those diverse viewpoints as well of course. Nahuai Badiola Yeah sure sure yeah that part is really close to my heart I'm really blessed by being in the right moment with the right people. I feel like I also try to put my energy and my enthusiasm on that. But really, when I go back and think how the things started, it's like, wow, this is really interesting. Because I started talking with you just I reach you and I say Hannah I think we have a lot of things I we would like to talk about it how do you feel about it I was sure and that was one of the points But the other was Nora asking to Matt and Josefa in WorldCamp Europe about the sustainability and I was kind of part of it because she was before doing the questions she was asking me what I could ask and we were just brainstorming so I was kind of part of it Nora was the the face and she did great asking it and Josefa opened in that moment or said that we could open the, someone Could open the Slack channel for sustainability. So we already had, yeah. Hannah Smith We should probably just say that that was at WordCamp Europe 2022, wasn't it? Nahuai Badiola Right, in Porto. That you're referring to, yeah, in Porto. Oh, I missed that one. Damn. Yeah, yeah, there was the one after the pandemic and it was yeah so that that was a really nice starting point to have so that basically josepha created the space so it was okay there is People interested okay let's go there and start talking and there there were some talking already there. But as you know, for starting things, you have to link with other people that is willing to put quite a lot of time to push it forward. So Thais and Saba also joined. And after that, we were the five of us with the idea of, okay, we have the Slack channel, but maybe a lot of people doesn't know about it. So maybe we should post in Make. And maybe we should ask the community what they feel that could go under the sustainability team. And that was the first part. And you were really involved on that. Indeed, we really missed you in the sustainability team because as I told you we really feel like you were part of the engine but as you explained you had other roles and new requirements And you couldn't spend that time so we moved forward and then I don't want to talk too much about how the team was created because i want to dedicate a episode with and i will bring also nora Thais and saba to talk about it but i just wanted to do a short overview and acknowledge that hannah was part of this initial energy that was there and also give you thanks again for it and For facilitating. Hannah Smith It's a pleasure. I mean, that was a hard piece of work. I mean, Nora did a really brave thing by standing up in WordCamp Europe and asking the question. It was really brave because she was nervous as well, wasn't she? Nahuai Badiola You know, did a really good we are we are not native speaking people so yeah sometimes we forget about it we don't the people that we are doing there for but i think that there is an overall Good level of english speaking people in the in the community and sometimes when some people arrive it's like wow i need to have like quite high level of english too so nora was super brave Because her english was not the best indeed right now is much better and it's going to keep improving but super brave so i applaud nora again for for being the the sparkle that that yeah Triggered Slack channel creation. She really did. Hannah Smith And I think what she managed to do, and it's interesting that you talk about an engine, I think what she managed to do was map out a space for someone to put an engine. And then the five of us came along and we all started pushing that engine down the hill to start to get it moving. And I think that's what that first post that we did together did was it got that engine just starting to move forwards and then I know you're going to tell the story in future episodes and Now that engine is is moving at its own in its on its own a little bit more I think there's still people shoving it behind but it's it's starting to move forwards in its own its own right and Nahuai Badiola It's very exciting um to see that also we are learning a lot of how the things are done in wordpress because we are newcomers not to wordpress because i've been working in wordpress area Space for nine years by now but how these things go like posting in make ([Time 0:45:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9a2492b6-e003-4891-b940-0f538457af77)) - **Community Sparks Sustainability Channel** - The WordPress sustainability Slack channel was created in response to community interest sparked at WordCamp Europe 2022. - Nora’s brave question helped initiate the channel and early momentum for the team. Transcript: Nahuai Badiola But really, when I go back and think how the things started, it's like, wow, this is really interesting. Because I started talking with you just I reach you and I say Hannah I think we have a lot of things I we would like to talk about it how do you feel about it I was sure and that was one of the points But the other was Nora asking to Matt and Josefa in WorldCamp Europe about the sustainability and I was kind of part of it because she was before doing the questions she was asking me what I could ask and we were just brainstorming so I was kind of part of it Nora was the the face and she did great asking it and Josefa opened in that moment or said that we could open the, someone Could open the Slack channel for sustainability. So we already had, yeah. Hannah Smith We should probably just say that that was at WordCamp Europe 2022, wasn't it? Nahuai Badiola Right, in Porto. That you're referring to, yeah, in Porto. Oh, I missed that one. Damn. Yeah, yeah, there was the one after the pandemic and it was yeah so that that was a really nice starting point to have so that basically josepha created the space so it was okay there is People interested okay let's go there and start talking and there there were some talking already there. But as you know, for starting things, you have to link with other people that is willing to put quite a lot of time to push it forward. So Thais and Saba also joined. And after that, we were the five of us with the idea of, okay, we have the Slack channel, but maybe a lot of people doesn't know about it. So maybe we should post in Make. And maybe we should ask the community what they feel that could go under the sustainability team. And that was the first part. And you were really involved on that. Indeed, we really missed you in the sustainability team because as I told you we really feel like you were part of the engine but as you explained you had other roles and new requirements And you couldn't spend that time so we moved forward and then I don't want to talk too much about how the team was created because i want to dedicate a episode with and i will bring also nora Thais and saba to talk about it but i just wanted to do a short overview and acknowledge that hannah was part of this initial energy that was there and also give you thanks again for it and For facilitating. Hannah Smith It's a pleasure. I mean, that was a hard piece of work. I mean, Nora did a really brave thing by standing up in WordCamp Europe and asking the question. It was really brave because she was nervous as well, wasn't she? Nahuai Badiola You know, did a really good we are we are not native speaking people so yeah sometimes we forget about it we don't the people that we are doing there for but i think that there is an overall Good level of english speaking people in the in the community and sometimes when some people arrive it's like wow i need to have like quite high level of english too so nora was super brave Because her english was not the best indeed right now is much better and it's going to keep improving but super brave so i applaud nora again for for being the the sparkle that that yeah Triggered Slack channel creation. She really did. Hannah Smith And I think what she managed to do, and it's interesting that you talk about an engine, I think what she managed to do was map out a space for someone to put an engine. And then the five of us came along and we all started pushing that engine down the hill to start to get it moving. ([Time 0:47:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c81157fc-03f7-46e8-8416-aa4dd5ea8591)) - **WordCamps as Idea Incubators** - WordCamps serve as vital places to introduce new sustainability ideas to the WordPress community. - These events catalyze interest and ongoing projects in areas like digital sustainability. Transcript: Nahuai Badiola And so that's also a very interesting part that probably we will tackle more on that in the episode that is dedicated to the sustainability team, but also to bring the reflection that We start doing things as we thought were the proper way of doing it. And there is nothing written about it. So, and we are still learning how to do it because we are an open source community and we want to be open transparent but i feel like i said before sometimes you to get the things started You have to start like a small group and then say hey we are doing this join please yeah absolutely it takes a certain amount of bravery to kind of step out and be like hey we're doing this Hannah Smith And we might not have got everything right but we're trying and we want to move things forwards and I think that I think it might just be nice just to say that those three pillars of sustainability Were very much in the core of our thinking right from the beginning because we did that website I've I've forgotten the url was it RWP? Nahuai Badiola Our sustainability. Yeah, I will put the link to it also. I did it and I have the domain. But our sustainability, our sustainable web. I will search for it. Yeah, sorry. Hannah Smith Because right from the beginning, we set out a vision of what we thought sustainability could mean in WordPress as a starting point it was always meant to be an igniter of conversations Not a fait accompli you know it was never presented as such and and within that you'll see lots ([Time 0:52:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d4ba6ed-258a-4ec8-8b99-df00b922d311)) - **Holistic Sustainability Vision in WordPress** - Sustainability in WordPress integrates environmental, social, and economic factors from the start. - Their website presents these themes to ignite community conversations, not as fixed conclusions. Transcript: Hannah Smith So that thinking was baked in right from the beginning, I think, as well. Nahuai Badiola Yeah yeah yeah maybe we didn't do a enough good work to to communicate it because in some point there were some feeling that we were changing years when we were we when we became to an official Team but that part i think we will talk more about it when when we do the dedicated episode also i was saying it right that there is our sustainableweb.com. I will link it in the show notes so you can go there and see our vision of the... It was like more than one year ago, I think. Yeah. Hannah Smith Something like that. Yeah, more or less, let's say. It's a good website we did there And low carbon as well, wasn't it? ([Time 0:54:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/89514d77-d691-4625-a661-5f694246fab6))