Episode 100: Celebrating 100 Episodes of CHAOSScast!  ## Metadata - Author: [[CHAOSScast]] - Full Title: Episode 100: Celebrating 100 Episodes of CHAOSScast! - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/66a76316-490f-44a8-9215-98492ed0ac47 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **CHAOSScast origin** - Georg Link initially wanted to capture CHAOSS community stories through blog posts. - A podcast became the solution due to the difficulty of getting written contributions. Transcript: Georg Link That was quite some time ago. When we started Chaos, we were hearing a lot of fantastic stories from people who were using open source metrics, who were looking at the health of open source communities. And we've been having a lot of great conversations in the meetings and on the mailing list at the time. I was looking for a way to capture those stories in a way that we can share them more widely. And at first we thought, well, ask everyone to write a blog post and capture things that way. But it's really hard to get people to write. And so, okay, well, let's interview them and write something for them. But that second part of actually writing it ourself is also hard. But interviewing people, getting them on a call, talking to them, that is doable. And if we record that, then we make a podcast out of it. So we've been landing on the podcast as a way of sharing the stories and the many different ways that people approach analyzing open source community health. And at the time, we were really fortunate that we knew the sustain podcast, the people behind that, and they helped us get started and set up and really encouraged us to do the podcast. And so you asked what was on my mind. One of the things that I always envisioned for this podcast was for it to be a community podcast. So I didn't want to create a podcast that was podcast, but one that was chaos podcast. And from the very beginning, we had multiple co-hosts, co-organizers and rotating people who are really shaping the podcast and were leaving their mark. I just want to take a moment to thank each one of them. Even if they're not active in the podcast anymore over the years, we had many people here. Matt Broberg, Vinja Logan, Don Foster, Alice Zorbi, who still is here today, and Harmony Elendu. Thank you. Also, Elizabeth, very regular member of the podcast, Matt Germanprey, Ruth Ikiga, Sean Goggins, Don Marty, Brian Prophet, who's also here. And Nicole Huseman, Fontiam Armstrong, Daniel Iskirto, Kate Stewart, Andrea Gallo, Sophia Vargas, and Matt Snell. And so I really appreciate everyone who's helping move the podcast forward. And in the early days, it was really how do we create a podcast with so many different voices, but still have a consistency through it. And for that, we created the structure with introductions, panelists introduced themselves, we have the topic, the value adds, we have the opening statement, the closing statement That we standardized and read, and also the music. I had so much fun listening to different jingles that we could use. It was really a fantastic story and journey. And the logo, we had a contest for designing a logo. If you listen to episode 24, you can hear an interview with Luis Canas, who had the winning design. So we did a community engagement there with an open call for everyone to propose logos. And then we had a voting. And the logo you see today is the one that came out of that. So really, I think we've done this from my perspective, a good job of creating a community podcast for chaos, where we can capture those different stories and voices that are sometimes You hear them in a meeting, but then they're gone in the archives. ([Time 0:03:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/482fbe43-3c57-4961-811c-9f375a9c98e9)) - **CHAOSS Expanding Scope** - CHAOSS has broadened its scope from community health to also include sustainability and security. - This shift reflects the growing interest of corporations and academics who use this data for decision-making. Transcript: Brian Proffitt I think there's been a natural evolution and progression in the scope of work that chaos has been doing. When it started, and I was lucky enough to be around at the beginning and watch this thing start, all the conversations were purely about measuring community health for community health's Sake. And while that work still continues, I believe the scope has really expanded. And now we're kind of looking at community health in the context of who is using it, who is participating in these communities. So corporations are very interested in not only learning about communities health, but also about the sustainability and continuity of that project, because they're using this Data now to actually make informed decisions about how they're going to interact and participate in communities. So I guess one way to describe this would be that it's very much more of a mainstream effort. And this is not just true of corporations, it's true of academic participation. I remember early conversations with academia and going along with community metrics and really having a lot of discussion about how open source and academia works and really trying To set common ground as far as how does open source work within academia versus corporations versus all volunteer efforts. So I think we've come a long way there. And the thing that I'm really interested in, and I'm very much involved with in my work at Red Hat, and also the work I do with the Apache Foundation, is regulations are really coming down The road now. We've already seen that the EU's CRA legislation is going to go into effect later this month in December, and we expect more legislation and regulations coming out of other jurisdictions Moving into 25 and 2026. So those regulations are coming. And now we're going to have to have new motivations for examining communities, because now becomes much more of a security-oriented conversation, because these governments are Trying to understand what is happening with open source, even as they also finally started to recognize that open source is pretty much everywhere and they want to understand how it Works and how they can make it more secure. And I really do think that chaos is going to be a part of that conversation. So those are the ways that I think we've seen to change and I think where chaos is going to be heading in the near future. ([Time 0:08:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3f1dea86-f337-4c59-98da-388929a3b42a)) - **CHAOSS and Regulations** - Open-source regulations are emerging, focusing on security. - CHAOSS metrics will play a crucial role in these conversations, helping governments understand and secure open source. Transcript: Brian Proffitt So I think we've come a long way there. And the thing that I'm really interested in, and I'm very much involved with in my work at Red Hat, and also the work I do with the Apache Foundation, is regulations are really coming down The road now. We've already seen that the EU's CRA legislation is going to go into effect later this month in December, and we expect more legislation and regulations coming out of other jurisdictions Moving into 25 and 2026. So those regulations are coming. And now we're going to have to have new motivations for examining communities, because now becomes much more of a security-oriented conversation, because these governments are Trying to understand what is happening with open source, even as they also finally started to recognize that open source is pretty much everywhere and they want to understand how it Works and how they can make it more secure. And I really do think that chaos is going to be a part of that conversation. So ([Time 0:09:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/014e1205-9598-4f07-a6f9-cda7a947fc06)) - **Asian Chapter Inclusion** - Divya Mohan, inspired by Ruth Ikegah, aims to make open source more accessible for disabled people in Asia. - She collaborates with various organizations to address the diverse accessibility requirements across the Asian continent. Transcript: Divya Mohan Alos. I'm a very recent entrance to the project, and I've been like a long- locker on the Slack channel. I think I've been on the Slack since the pandemic started, but actually got around the contributing fairly recently. But the chaos community in general has been incredibly warm and welcoming. And in my opinion, it embodies the true ethos open source and it's what i try to bring i have an expedience to the asian chapter as well because earlier on we were selectively scoped to Certain regions within asia by collectively trying to bring more geographies within Asia to participate in the project as well as by the open source ecosystem. Now, Asia might look like one homogenous continent by the level to which open source is permeated, but in the continent it varies very vastly from region to region. Honestly speaking, it would be really foolish of me to take on such an undertaking alone. So what I've done is obviously build upon the previous work that my predecessor, Yaya, we call her Zhao, she has done. With various communities such as the Open Chain Project, the Two-Do Project, and even local organizations driving grassroots and government adoption efforts such as Code for GovTech, First United, the Open Culture Foundation, etc. Additionally, because of all the work that I do outside of the Chaos Project within the wider Linux Foundation, and also partly inspired by Root. I realized that there's a need for an initiative that focuses on making open source more accessible for disabled folks. And that's specific to the Asian context. And even there, there is a pretty wide variety of accessibility requirements. This is also because based on the interactions I've had so far in the ecosystem. So, cumulatively, there's some of the work that I've accomplished with the chapter, because none of it is my own undertaking. And I think this is what we aim to sort of take forward into the next couple of years as well. Thank ([Time 0:11:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aa1e738b-d5f5-4430-8cd8-7b43769f742f)) - **CHAOSS Evolving Focus** - The CHAOSS project has seen a shift towards implementation and data science discussions. - The development of new metrics has slowed, while emerging leaders drive new initiatives. Transcript: Elizabeth Barron Think this is a really interesting question. Thanks, Harmony. So I think if we're talking about the work that chaos focuses on, I've seen a marked focus shift, I should say, towards discussing things around implementation and data science a lot More than in the past. And we're also expanding the context and the lenses with which we view open source community health. So our development of the actual metrics has slowed down quite a lot, which is a natural progression, I guess, of the evolution of chaos, but just an interesting observation. If we're talking about the community itself, I have noticed that there are a lot more emerging leaders that are really stepping up and taking on some roles and creating projects themselves Within the chaos project, which is fantastic. I love to see that initiative that people are really taking on. A couple of examples of that would be our accessibility and disability inclusion group in Africa and chaos Africa. They have put on some events with partnerships with other orgs in Africa who are trying to bring more folks with disabilities into open source, which is fantastic. The UN SDG working group that started up, that is a super interesting project that's new in chaos. And the technical writers, Harmony, you were instrumental in really kicking off a lot of Hacktoberfest projects. And that is not something that chaos said, we have to do these things. It was ideas and creativity and inspiration from the community themselves. So I'm super excited to see that happen. And we've also seen, of course, as Divya mentioned, a lot of growth in the Asia Pacific region. We've not really expanded our reach outside of maybe China and a few folks in India. So really appreciate Divya's efforts there to just be more inclusive of the region and bring more folks to chaos from there. And what's also interesting, one final thing I'll just note is when I do conferences now, and I represent chaos at a chaos booth, a lot of people have heard of chaos, which is great. It's fantastic. We still have to give our spiel to folks every now and again, a lot of people they may not know exactly what we do but they have definitely heard the name so that's really fascinating it's A good observation thanks ([Time 0:14:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/570b0ed5-3af4-4261-8eb8-5be99bb83116)) - **Governmental Value of CHAOSS** - Remy DeCausemaker highlights the value of CHAOSS in fostering public-private collaborations. - He shares examples of cross-sector collaboration facilitated by CHAOSS metrics and tools. Transcript: Remy DeCausemaker So in a word, immense, I think is a great way to start. The Chaos Ospometrics Working Group has begotten multiple key collaborations between open source program offices across the public and the private sector. Is centered on ChaosMetrics and we regularly share our progress with the community in the regular meetings. And when we were developing our metrics dashboard, we were inspired by 8knot and a lot of the work of Grimoire and Augur and a bunch of the other Chaos projects in tech. We shared best practices and code snippets with Brian and Callie from the Red Hat OSPO. Chan and Satwick from the Comcast OSPO sent us pull requests to add maturity models and tier-specific repo linter configurations to our repo scaffolder templates. And we co-presented at the LF Open Source Summit 2024 with fellow Chaos members James and Justin from the Microsoft OSPO about repository cohorts. So Chaos is one of the best examples of the power of open source to unite governmental, academic, and industry stakeholders to really solve real world problems. The value is super immense and meeting at the OSPO's for Good Symposium at the United Nations this past summer is just truly inspiring. National and international, local, all the way up and down the stack. I think governments everywhere can benefit from having a better understanding of the health of their community and how people are working together and how to make that a more healthy And sustainable place to be. ([Time 0:17:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a9573ec5-e2f7-4e90-b581-537c7c2d1595)) - **Importance of Community and Feedback** - Ruth Ikegah emphasizes the importance of welcoming communities and feedback mechanisms in open source. - She advises communities to prioritize inclusivity and active feedback implementation. Transcript: Ruth Ikegah Why would I not love chaos? It's the best community in the whole world. But yes, I think one of the reasons I love the chaos project is the community. And maybe it's because we create things for other communities and that's why we're so cool. But I know personally for me, the chaos project was one of the first projects I contributed to just after transitioning from a non-technical background and how welcoming the community Was or something that struck me because I had tried a couple of other projects before finding the chaos project and it was really very difficult for me to really make a first contribution Because there are some other technical blockers that I had at the time right and that was years ago. So how welcoming the community was and how I was able to make contributions no matter how. I think my first contribution then was on a weekly meeting. We create metrics and we do it on a DI meeting rather. And then I asked about a particular metric that had not been created. And it was my first time joining that meeting. But people saying yes to that really gave me a boost. So it made me, for me, it made me come back. This community is willing to listen. I can make that contribution. They don't really care where I was at my journey at that time. So it was really important for me and it helped me come back, make the second contribution. And I kept going from there. And personally, even at the point where I was transitioning to doing open source full time as well, that was around the time the Chaos Africa community started up and that gave me a lot Of practice to land a full-time role and I was able to connect with the Biteja folks. So like there's a big impact that Chaos has had on me and I have seen it happen with the contributors of the Chaos Africa project, Chaos Africa chapter rather. I see how people come in and they're able to make their contributions even beyond the African chapter. And even for the continent of Africa, how the technology skill is growing, people are finding open source as a place to improve on their skills. And I'm seeing that happen every single day. The model we have been able to build to onboard new contributors, how the different chapter members are contributing to chaos in terms of design, in terms of like technical writing, How many do you you like a lot of work around their social media. And sometimes I would tell people that in open source, anybody can contribute and chaos is a representation of that because we have diverse ways to contribute, diverse working groups From different areas. It's the community that keeps me coming back. And another thing is feedback. We have been able to, the surveys that we run is also something that I really love. Not just we are giving things to people, but we're also asking them, what can we do better, right? And the world is ever-changing so that part of us getting feedback from people and not just having that feedback as data but trying our best to implement that feedback and even though Sometimes feedback can be hard to receive right so that's also another thing so those two things the community and also with feedback. ([Time 0:20:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/01fd90e8-fd38-4c20-8b66-73b3b086b045)) - **Community Health and Security** - Georg Link predicts more software supply chain attacks, increasing the importance of community health. - He positions CHAOSS as crucial for strengthening software supply chains through community health metrics. Transcript: Georg Link You, Harmony. I think Brian already alluded to the growing and expanding scope of chaos and how the upcoming implementation of legislation and regulations are shaping the landscape in software And how that is impacting open source. And so I think chaos plays a central role in that collaboration for the industry when it comes to community health and project health, because that is what our core mission and focus Is. And to give you a little bit of context, I want to address it from two angles. The one is the legislation, the Cyber Resiliency Act is putting a mandate on manufacturers that are releasing products with software to provide long-term maintenance. And when that software is built on top of open source components and libraries, then the manufacturer also needs to think about how long-term sustainability looks for those open source Projects, building the software. And chaos can play a critical role here by helping understand the current health of a project and to even have measures that can indicate a shift in the project communities where we can Detect, hey, there is a change of maintainership, a change in activity level. There are many different things that we can see with metrics that we have defined in chaos that can help the industry, the manufacturers to become proactive in helping sustain the open Source projects and communities. And the other angle I want to address is the security that we have issues with. We've recently seen where the culture of open source was hacked. With the XEUtils example, we saw a bad actor go into a project that was under maintained and offer help and through a very long arc, implement a hack into the software undetected at first Until it was already in the software and being tested. Luckily, thanks to the transparency in open source, we discovered it before it was widely deployed. And we know there are bad actors doing this. There's an increase in malicious packages being published, which makes sense. There's a lot of open source out there. Only about 10%, 15% is actually being maintained of the projects that are releasing components. Only about 10% of those are used in applications by industry. So there's a lot of noise and developers have a hard time checking, is this something worth relying on? Should I be using this? And so the chaos metrics that we have can help in that decision-making process. And the attacks that we see on the software supply chain are only growing. Gartner estimates by next year that 45% of companies will have experienced the software supply chain attack. It is a big deal. Companies that face a software supply chain attack can face a lot of damages. In the case of SolarVents, it was on average 11% of annual revenue. And so there is, I think, from a chaos perspective, we have a lot of knowledge built up in the community around how to understand the health of an open source project. And now that more and more of the industry is waking up to this realization that we need healthy communities to build sustainable and secure software, that we will play a major role in Shaping that conversation and helping people understand that there is already a body of knowledge and tools available. And we don't have to reinvent the wheel now that a lot of companies are first time waking up either through the security angle or the regulation legislation angle. So that's where I see chaos playing a lot of advocacy role in helping a lot of companies understand and move the industry forward towards solutions. ([Time 0:25:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5479e3f1-554e-429d-ade5-a40cc676f95d)) - **CHAOSS Board and Working Groups** - Brian Proffitt describes the CHAOSS board as "low touch," focusing on long-term planning. - He highlights the active working groups as the drivers of progress within the CHAOSS project. Transcript: Brian Proffitt Well, now I feel kind of bad because I may be disappointing your expectations a little bit. So the Chaos Board, it's obviously a very important part of any kind of project governance. This particular board has always to me seemed very historically low touch. I've been involved with other boards and other projects and other software foundations, and they tend to take a more active role in the day-to operations or month-to operations. But this board is historically, to me, has always been a fairly low touch organization, but that's what I like about it. This board is very good about planning ahead, looking down the road, and seeing what the project as a whole might need, and then anticipating those needs. Work, and again, this is not taking away from anybody on the board, but the thing I love about chaos in general is that the working groups are so ridiculously active and going. I've been in organizations, again, where the working groups are just sort of a pro forma status meeting, but the working groups within chaos, I think, is where the real work gets done As far as progressing the metrics and progressing the data science and the work that we do at Osmos. And there's just a few of the working groups that I've been involved in over the years. So I think it's a good balance. I think chaos, I usually hold it up as a model to other organizations, not naming any names, but maybe some organizations that could do some help. As far as governance, as a positive model of what a board that is paying attention and is doing the work, but they're not hovering, in the US, we call it helicopter And so they're not doing That, which is great. And I really do think that this board is an excellent model of leadership that other open source projects can follow. I ([Time 0:31:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bf4bcd45-55ce-4f44-8ae4-7d0333e46696)) - **Recommendation for Joining CHAOSS** - Remy DeCausemaker recommends CHAOSS to those working in open source program offices or developer relations. - He emphasizes CHAOSS's focus on community health, a crucial aspect often overlooked in software development. Transcript: Remy DeCausemaker Heard from Ruth, the sooner in your hacker's journey, the better. I think that especially if you're working in an open source program office or developer relations or any other function that focus not just on the code but on the people that make the Code chaos is the place where you should come and begin and there are so many places where developers can get technical advice. There are so many places where they can get guidance and training about the latest and greatest technology, but even AI to tell you how to do your job and build more stuff faster and better, Right? But the machines are not as good as at understanding the humans as fellow community can be. And there are not many places like chaos that center on community health, continuity, succession, sustainability. Security historically has been at the center of most conversations about risk in open source, at least in many of the places that I've been lucky enough to be a part of. But people are really beginning to wake up to the interconnectedness of the world of software and thinking about not just products or projects as freestanding islands, but as a supply Chain of a global interconnected community. And chaos really takes that from being an abstract thing to being a really practical and observable thing. And it's full of people who are helping each other to better understand it all the time. So if you're an organization, definitely join chaos because there are lots of organizations here represented. And if you're an individual looking for an opportunity to understand the world of open source, chaos is also a great place to be. There are folks who've been here for a long time. There are folks who just got here, but chaos has been a critical part of developing our understanding of the world around us in software. ([Time 0:37:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c1644058-1750-48a0-b187-25ee38409b65)) - **Learning from CHAOSS** - Ruth Ikegah suggests other open source communities learn from CHAOSS's approach to inclusivity and global reach. - She recommends utilizing chapters and diverse leadership representation. Transcript: Ruth Ikegah I think the way we approach inclusivity and globally as well, for example, our chapters, we have four chapters. I lead the Chaos Africa chapter, Javier, that you've been hearing from. It's the Asia-Pacific chapters. And then we have two other chapters in LATAM and the Balkans. And we're not perfect, but we've done a lot of work to ensure that people's voices are heard. And the interesting things I see in these chapters is they're able to relate open source in their own context and they're able to navigate the challenges that they face culturally and Create more opportunities because there's not much in a global community, like open source global communities, people from different places participate, right? And you might not be aware of the specific challenges that different religions face. But when you have smaller communities that are specific to people, then they can address those challenges. So I think chapters is a very good way that the things we've been doing here in the KLS project, and also with representation in leadership as well, giving access to people, helping build Calada. When you think of people, like I pointed out earlier of my path to open source and even over time in the chaos project, it's like a group being a new contributor and the project gave me that Access to keep growing. Right. So also representation is important. You could see it in our board. So that's also something that other communities could learn. And also another thing is with newcomers, and that's something really important. The way we approach newcomer onboarding, for example, we have office hours, right? And that's one of the first touch points for a lot of community members. When I've had cases where community members during the project, they start off with office hours. They ask those questions that are, and usually these office hours are really, really very casual. People can ask questions, know what's going on around the project, and then they're able to find a way to contribute. So helping newcomers get started, looking into the onboarding process for your project and helping contributors keep contributing as well. And we create a lot of resources in Chaos, like from our metrics and to metric models. So we have a ton of resources that other open source communities that are looking to be like Chaos can learn from. So please, you could check out our metrics, the metric models, check out our software as well. And I'm just giving a shout out to the Badging Project. That's also like something that open source communities can check out. We do that both on the events side and also on the project side to know how you can be more inclusive. ([Time 0:40:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6145032c-0808-40b5-8b64-133c39c1674d)) - **Why Newcomers Stay in CHAOSS** - Sean Goggins suggests newcomers are drawn to CHAOSS by the unique need for community health metrics. - The welcoming environment and lack of jargon encourage continued participation. Transcript: Sean Goggins Really a combination of things other people have said. Brian noted earlier in the podcast the importance of regulatory impetus from first Europe and eventually the United States and other jurisdictions, really putting more of a governance And security concern around open source software and the software supply chain. This is really just the latest case for the Chaos Project of there is some need that folks who work in open source software have to understand what they have. And the chaos project does that. And there isn't really another group that's organized to think about these questions of how do we understand from a company, our portfolio, if I'm an open source community manager, My project space. So chaos does that. So it's always a need. Most often people come to us because if they can go to chaos.metergia or metrics.chaos and actually get some high-level overviews of what's happening in their projects, they're not Available elsewhere. That kind of draws them in. And then the fact that we are welcoming and easy to get along with and have really good positive vibes allows people to stay. We don't really have a, probably a little bit, but I'm too close to it to say, but I don't think we have the sort of jargon intensive communication that I experience when I'm participating In other open source projects. So there isn't, knock on wood, anything about chaos that alienates people from it. Once they show up, they almost always show up because they have some need, some problem, a question that they need to have solved. ([Time 0:45:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b997c45f-b405-4600-b180-093dd99fe8b6)) - **Community Health and Risk Assessment** - Brian Proffitt predicts a rise in companies linking community metrics to product security. - He sees community health becoming a key factor in corporate risk assessment. Transcript: Brian Proffitt Yeah, so this is Brian. And yeah, not to drive this point home too much more, but we're already seeing a serious uptick in industry. My company, Red Hat, and several other companies where they're looking at tying the efforts in that the chaos is doing around community metrics into existing product security work. So imagine a world where you have software bill of materials or SBOMs, as they're referred to, and they give you the ingredients of the software that you're shipping. And a lot of regulations seem to be focusing on that as one solid approach to managing software security. But businesses are taking that a little bit a step further, because by combining SBOMs with known information about the projects that are in these software packages, and being able To determine community health of those projects is a step beyond just knowing where did the code come from? It's also knowing what environment is the code being developed? Is it healthy? We have already seen instances in 2023 and 24, and even before that, software projects that are not healthy and then find themselves vulnerable to security infiltration from bad actors, Basically. And so to me, health, it's important. We want the open source software that we all work with to be healthy and successful at thriving. But there's also a real world need that we have seen time and again. That healthiness also can coordinate with how secure the output of these software projects are. We're going to see a big uptick in that amongst corporations because they will see it's not just kumbaya, oh, community health is wonderful. It's actually going to drive the bottom line and really make risk assessment much more oriented towards open source development and community best practices. ([Time 0:48:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/59831e58-70c4-4abd-a59b-c453f915be70)) - **Strengthening the CHAOSS Community** - Elizabeth Barron encourages stronger community involvement within CHAOSS. - She calls for more newcomer support, leadership initiatives, and cross-working group collaboration. Transcript: Elizabeth Barron So this is Elizabeth here and just wanted to jump in and say, as we've been hearing from numerous of the other folks on this podcast, open source is really facing a lot of challenges, especially In security, AI, legal regulation, sustainability. I mean, the list really goes on. So I think for chaos, the project and the community to rise up to address some of these challenges. I would love to see even stronger chaos community. I think our community is pretty strong as it is, but I would love to see things like more newcomers helping other newcomers and spreading that onboarding process out so it's not just Down to five or 10 people. I would love to see also more chaotics taking a step forward and finding themselves in leadership roles or initiating some projects. As our project grows and we expand the context in which we're thinking of things, I would really love to see that happen. Again, spreading that out a little more so it's not quite so focused on a few people. And then, of course, I would really love to see a lot more cross-collaboration between working groups. I think we still tend to work in silos a little. So I would love to see, especially in the context working groups, really crossing over and coming together to talk about some of these issues that affect everybody. So that's just my kind of hope for the future of chaos, to see us really rise above or rise up to the challenges that we're all going to be looking at. ([Time 0:51:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/22cce428-a4a8-4fad-8484-f2acfc6b00be))