Episode 11 Kim Maida - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 11: Kim Maida 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 11: Kim Maida](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OEpG1rlNA) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [developer-relations, identity-management, authentication, devrel, career-transition] > author: Chris Coyier > source: Community and Code Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OEpG1rlNA > date created: 2024-12-28 12:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 11: Kim Maida on Identity Management and DevRel Journey >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider downloadable auth solutions for local development — Kim highlights FusionAuth's on-premises benefits #identity - [H2] Explore configuration-as-code for auth setups — Kickstart files enable reproducible environments #devops - [H3] Leverage speaking opportunities for networking — Conferences provide natural conversation starters for introverts #speaking ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Community and Code Podcast](https://communityandcode.com) - [FusionAuth](https://fusionauth.io) ## 📝 Summary - Kim Maida discusses her role as Senior Director of DevRel at FusionAuth and her journey from animal behavior neurobiology to identity management - She emphasizes the critical nature of authentication/authorization and why she gravitates toward infrastructure that "everyone needs" - FusionAuth differentiates itself through downloadable, on-premises deployment with single-tenant cloud options - Kim's path to DevRel involved content creation at Auth0, starting as a developer who could write - She identifies as an outgoing introvert who finds speaking at conferences provides natural networking opportunities ## 📖 Main Content Kim Maida's career trajectory illustrates how non-traditional paths can lead to developer relations success. Starting with a degree in animal behavior neurobiology, she taught herself web development as a child making GeoCities sites but didn't initially see it as a career path. After working at digital agencies and experiencing burnout, she joined Auth0 early (employee #150) on their content team as a "developer who could write." Her current role at FusionAuth focuses on identity management, specifically OAuth and authentication solutions. FusionAuth's key differentiator is being downloadable for on-premises deployment, offering developers full ownership and control over their auth infrastructure. The platform includes "Kickstart" configuration files that enable rapid environment replication and setup automation. Kim describes herself as an outgoing introvert who found that speaking at conferences naturally facilitates networking by giving people reasons to approach her. She draws parallels between the adrenaline rush of roller coasters and pre-speaking nerves, viewing both as positive experiences that add excitement to activities. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Kim Maida at FusionAuth - Key idea: Senior Director of DevRel specializing in identity management - Evidence: "I've actually been working in identity for a little while. I've also worked at Auth0 and Okta" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=135) — [H2] Why identity management matters - Key idea: Identity is critical infrastructure that every developer eventually needs - Evidence: "I like being the person who thinks about it so that other people don't have to" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=270) — [H2] The pressure of getting security right - Key idea: High-stakes nature of identity work provides meaningful purpose - Evidence: "that criticality was gone... the sort of idea of if you get this wrong, you will be in big trouble" #### ⏱️ [06:45](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=405) — [H3] Explaining identity to non-technical people - Key idea: Simplify complex concepts for broader understanding - Evidence: "when you get online and you need to log in to a website or something, like that's the service that my company provides" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=500) — [H1] FusionAuth's downloadable differentiation - Key idea: On-premises deployment sets FusionAuth apart from SaaS-only competitors - Evidence: "we're downloadable... you can run the fusion authorization server as a part of your core infrastructure" #### ⏱️ [12:10](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=730) — [H2] Kickstart configuration files enable automation - Key idea: JSON-based configuration automates environment setup - Evidence: "you can have this configuration file called a kickstart... anything the API can do you can put into the kickstart" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=930) — [H3] Demystifying complex technical concepts - Key idea: DevRel role involves explaining the "magic" behind automated processes - Evidence: "when a magic thing happens like demystifying the magic part" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=1125) — [H1] Career transition from animal behavior to tech - Key idea: Non-traditional academic background led to web development - Evidence: "I had gotten my degree in animal behavior neurobiology... I had taught myself how to code" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=1350) — [H2] GeoCities as early web development training - Key idea: Childhood website creation provided foundational skills - Evidence: "I went to summer science camp and they had like an hour... teaching us HTML" #### ⏱️ [26:15](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=1575) — [H2] Auth0 content team as DevRel foundation - Key idea: Joining as developer who could write launched DevRel career - Evidence: "we were developers who could write. So everybody was an engineer, everybody knew how to code" #### ⏱️ [30:20](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=1820) — [H3] First speaking experience was terrifying but enjoyable - Key idea: Conference speaking opened new career opportunities - Evidence: "I thought it sounded terrifying and thought I should definitely do it because it sounds terrifying" #### ⏱️ [35:40](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=2140) — [H3] Miniature crafting as pandemic hobby - Key idea: Creative outlets complement technical work - Evidence: "I make miniatures as a hobby. It was a pandemic hobby" #### ⏱️ [38:50](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=2330) — [H2] Outgoing introvert approach to networking - Key idea: Speaking creates natural conversation opportunities for introverts - Evidence: "if you apply to speak at an event... people will come and find you and talk to you" #### ⏱️ [42:10](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=2530) — [H3] Roller coaster analogy for speaking nerves - Key idea: Pre-speaking adrenaline provides similar thrill to roller coasters - Evidence: "peak scary is like you know the moments that you're walking up to the stage" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/E1OEpG1rlNA?t=2730) — [H3] Upcoming conference speaking engagements - Key idea: Continuing active conference participation - Evidence: "I'll be speaking at JSConf and ng-conf and they're collocated" ## 📚 References - [Community and Code Podcast](https://communityandcode.com) - [FusionAuth](https://fusionauth.io) - [Mihi Mini Studio](https://mini.studio) - [Kim's Link Hub](https://maida.kim/connect) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Kim transitioned from animal behavior science to tech through self-taught web development, eventually finding her niche in identity management because of its critical infrastructure nature - FusionAuth differentiates itself by offering downloadable, on-premises authentication solutions with configuration-as-code capabilities through Kickstart files - Her DevRel career began at Auth0 as a developer who could write, emphasizing the importance of technical credibility combined with communication skills ## 📰 Newsletter **From Science Lab to Auth Stack: A DevRel Journey** This week's Community and Code podcast features Kim Maida's fascinating path from animal behavior neurobiology to Senior Director of DevRel at FusionAuth. Her story highlights how non-traditional backgrounds can bring unique value to developer relations. **Key Takeaway**: FusionAuth's downloadable approach to identity management offers developers full ownership and control, addressing the growing "local-first" movement in development tools. **Practical Benefit**: The Kickstart configuration system enables rapid environment replication - perfect for demos, onboarding, and maintaining consistency across development teams. **Speaking Insight**: Conference speaking naturally facilitates networking for introverts by giving people reasons to approach you, turning potential social challenges into opportunities. Resources: [FusionAuth Documentation](https://fusionauth.io/docs/), [Community and Code Podcast](https://communityandcode.com), [Kim's Projects](https://maida.kim/connect) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Conference speaking strategy for natural networking, technical demos of downloadable solutions - Education: Create "explain like I'm five" content for complex technical concepts like JWT signing - Developer experience: Emphasize configuration-as-code benefits for rapid environment setup - Developer marketing: Position downloadable solutions against SaaS-only competitors - Community management: Leverage speaking opportunities to facilitate introvert-friendly networking #### Community - Maintainers: Support configuration management approaches that enable reproducible environments - Contributors: Lower barriers through automated setup processes like Kickstart files - Sponsors: Highlight critical infrastructure value propositions #### WordPress - Core: Consider configuration-as-code approaches for WordPress development environments - Community: Develop speaking opportunity programs that support introverted contributors - Training: Create simplified explanations for complex WordPress concepts - Documentation: Implement "demystify the magic" approach to automated processes ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Downloadable identity solutions will gain market share as "local-first" development practices increase - Developer advocates with non-traditional backgrounds bring unique perspectives that resonate with diverse audiences - Configuration-as-code approaches significantly reduce developer onboarding friction - Speaking at conferences provides measurable networking advantages for introverted technical professionals ### 📊 Methodology - Survey developers on preferences for downloadable vs. SaaS-only identity solutions - Track onboarding completion rates with and without configuration automation - Measure networking outcomes for conference speakers vs. attendees - Analyze retention rates for DevRel professionals from non-traditional backgrounds ### ❓ Questions - How do downloadable solutions impact enterprise security compliance requirements? - What specific configuration patterns enable the most effective environment replication? - How can organizations better identify and develop non-traditional talent for DevRel roles? ### 🔮 Future Research - Impact of local-first development tools on enterprise adoption patterns - Effectiveness of "developers who can write" as a DevRel hiring strategy - Correlation between creative hobbies and technical communication skills ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Consider downloadable alternatives for critical development infrastructure - Policy: Evaluate on-premises deployment options for sensitive applications - Education: Develop programs that bridge non-technical backgrounds into DevRel careers - Funding: Support local-first tooling initiatives that reduce vendor lock-in ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Conference speaking context, miniature crafting examples - Improve: Architecture diagrams of downloadable vs. SaaS deployments, career transition flowcharts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio available - Improve: Chapter markers for key topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear analogies (roller coasters/speaking nerves), simplified explanations - Improve: Glossary of identity management terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Hands-on miniature crafting discussion - Improve: Step-by-step Kickstart file creation guide #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Career progression timeline, technical differentiation analysis - Improve: Decision matrix for auth solution selection #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Conference networking strategies, community building discussion - Improve: Peer discussion prompts about career transitions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual skill development focus - Improve: Self-assessment questions for DevRel readiness #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Animal behavior background connection - Improve: Systems thinking analogies between biological and technical systems ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading hierarchy, descriptive section titles - Improve: More detailed alt text for any referenced visual elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Timestamp navigation shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast text formatting - Improve: Ensure all links are clearly distinguishable #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive text layout - Improve: Test at 200% zoom for all content sections #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Timestamped caption file for video version #### Forms and interactions - Present: N/A for this content type - Improve: N/A #### Standards reference - Meets WCAG 2.2 AA standards for text-based content ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of diverse career paths into tech - Improve: More examples from different cultural contexts #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral technical terms, respectful framing - Improve: Define more technical jargon for broader accessibility #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, consistent structure - Improve: Content warnings for anxiety-related topics (speaking fears) #### Representation - Present: Female leader in technical role, non-traditional career path - Improve: More diverse examples of DevRel career transitions #### Psychological safety - Present: Validates introversion and speaking anxiety as normal - Improve: More explicit encouragement for non-traditional backgrounds ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear cause-and-effect between downloadable solutions and developer control - Inductive strength: Personal experience examples support broader career advice - Causal reasoning: Links between speaking opportunities and networking outcomes - Analogical strength: Roller coaster/speaking comparison effectively illustrates anxiety management #### Fallacies - None identified: Arguments are well-supported by personal experience and logical reasoning #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, encouraging, authentic with appropriate vulnerability about career transitions and speaking anxiety ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacking behavior present - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive, supportive framing throughout ## 🎯 Conclusion Kim Maida's journey from animal behavior neurobiology to identity management DevRel illustrates the value of non-traditional backgrounds in developer relations. Her emphasis on FusionAuth's downloadable approach addresses real developer needs for local control and environment reproducibility. The conversation provides valuable insights for both career --- ## Full Transcript [00:13] [music] [00:18] Welcome to Community and Code, the [00:19] podcast about the people, the human [00:21] beings behind the commits. I'm here [00:23] today with Kim Maida. She is a senior [00:26] director of developer relations at [00:27] Fusion Off. uh welcome to the show and [00:30] tell us a little bit about yourself. [00:31] >> Hey Chris, thanks uh and thanks for that [00:34] introduction. Um I guess uh [laughter] [00:38] where to start? Like you said um I've [00:41] I've actually been working in identity [00:44] for a little while. I've also worked at [00:46] Ozero and Octa um as well as on Devril [00:49] at various other startups in between um [00:53] and I kind of had always found myself [00:55] gravitating back to identity. So I think [00:58] recently I finally made the decision of [01:01] this is my career. I will probably be [01:03] working in identity for the remainder of [01:06] my career after kind of yo-yoing back [01:09] and forth a bunch from it. Um [01:12] >> yeah. What what is it for you about like [01:16] identity management authentication type [01:18] stuff that is interesting? I think for [01:22] me and probably for a lot of developers [01:24] that's like the thing that we want to [01:27] think about the least. [01:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like I like being [01:31] the person who thinks about it so that [01:33] other people don't have to. [01:34] >> Um I like there are plenty of things [01:37] like that for me like DevOps. Like I [01:40] know enough DevOps to be dangerous [01:42] because I had to learn it in order to [01:43] like operate my Digital Ocean VPS. [01:46] >> But it's it's just really not my thing. [01:48] Like I'm not good at it. I don't retain [01:50] the information. Um I had found that [01:53] with identity and access management like [01:56] I do actually retain the information. Um [01:58] and I like being a a part of critical [02:02] infrastructure [02:04] because everybody needs it. It's one of [02:06] those things that no matter what [02:07] language you use, no matter what stack [02:09] you're using, at some point you're going [02:12] to come across a need for O in some way. [02:16] And so it, you know, some of the other [02:19] jobs that I've had were very specific to [02:21] like a certain language or a certain [02:23] framework and and you know, it was it [02:27] was a lot of like people love this [02:29] thing. They want to showcase what [02:30] they've done with it. And interestingly, [02:33] like when I I actually started my Devro [02:36] career in O. So I hadn't kind of [02:38] experienced things out communities [02:40] outside of that community before. And [02:43] then when I did I, you know, initially I [02:45] had been like, "Oh, it'll be, you know, [02:47] it'll be awesome because there's, you [02:49] know, hundreds of thousands of people [02:51] are really excited about this thing. Um, [02:53] they want to showcase their knowledge." [02:55] And I, what I found was I I just didn't [02:59] find as much um like critical meaning in [03:03] it for me. Uh, like it was great to help [03:06] people use things they already loved and [03:08] already cared about, but that [03:11] criticality was gone. um the the sort of [03:14] idea of if you get this wrong, you will [03:18] be in big trouble. Like you could [03:20] potentially have a huge disaster on your [03:22] hands if you get it wrong. And I think [03:24] that kind of pressure is something that [03:28] I really enjoy being in a space that has [03:31] that around it [03:33] >> because I do not think that everybody [03:35] should become an off expert. I don't [03:37] absolutely don't think so. Um I think [03:40] that [03:40] >> because I don't want to. [laughter] [03:41] >> Yeah. most people don't want to be. Um, [03:44] but that's, you know, that's why tools [03:46] exist. But also, there's, you know, [03:49] certain things that you should probably [03:50] understand in order to be competent. [03:53] >> And there's a significant difference [03:54] between like knowing everything and [03:57] knowing enough that you're confident [03:59] that what you've done is secure and that [04:00] you've done things right. Um, and I like [04:03] kind of trying to find that balance of [04:05] confidence where people can be sure that [04:09] they can have faith in what they've done [04:11] so that they can move on and not have to [04:13] think about it anymore. Um, versus like [04:18] here's the oath spec read it from [04:19] beginning to end like [04:20] >> right. [04:22] >> Yeah. taking a a little bit of a step [04:25] back I think um I want to get dig into [04:28] your history a little bit more but like [04:30] just from like a big picture like from [04:33] the perspective of somebody who maybe [04:35] isn't a developer who like is listening [04:37] to this or or who you might just [04:38] encounter you know wherever at a [04:40] conference or or even just in person [04:42] like in in like the line at the coffee [04:44] shop like when you talk about what you [04:47] do or what like the practice around uh [04:53] what what you do and talk about um in [04:56] your role in developer relations like [04:58] how would you break it down to like like [05:01] the the explain it to me like I'm five [05:03] sort of uh prompt you know like what [05:05] what is what is the the highlevel like [05:10] definition of of what what it is that [05:13] you are trying to get people to do. [05:17] Um, [05:19] I guess I think there Let me unpack that [05:21] a little because I think there were a [05:22] couple [laughter] questions in there [05:23] >> probably. I have I often do that is just [05:26] like slide five or six more questions [05:28] into one question. Yeah. [05:29] >> Okay. So, maybe if we back up I think [05:31] like the initial question was um kind of [05:34] and explain like I'm five. What do I [05:37] tell people my job is? [05:38] >> Yeah. Yeah. [05:39] >> Yeah. Um, so for people who don't like [05:43] relatives and family, friends and and [05:45] people like that, I basically say, you [05:48] know, when you get online and you need [05:50] to log in to a website or something, [05:52] like that's the service that my company [05:54] provides. [05:55] >> That's fair. [05:56] >> And and then I usually get a bunch of [05:58] questions about like why do why does [06:00] everybody have MFA? Like why do I need [06:03] this thing? Um, but it's that usually [06:07] leads to further interesting [06:09] conversations because, you know, then [06:10] you can explain like why [06:12] >> there are, you know, these additional [06:14] security precautions for like your bank [06:16] versus um, you know, I don't know, like [06:18] making a reservation at a restaurant or [06:20] something like that, [06:20] >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [06:21] >> So, [06:23] >> it's Yeah, that's basically what I tell. [06:25] And then as far as like I usually don't [06:28] go as far as like defining [06:29] authentication, authorization. Most [06:31] people, like you said, like [laughter] [06:32] most people aren't really interested in [06:34] that level, right? [06:35] >> Um, but, you know, if if I do, then I [06:38] basically, you know, would say like [06:40] authentication is proving who you you [06:43] are who you say you are and then [06:44] authentication is what can you actually [06:46] access? [06:47] >> Yeah. [06:47] >> What can you access and do? [06:51] >> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, and [06:53] you're at Fusion O and you were formerly [06:56] at uh Ozero and Octa and those are, you [06:59] know, from from where I stand in the [07:02] tech world, like Octa and Ozero are kind [07:04] of big pretty big players in this space. [07:07] Um, what was interesting to you about [07:09] Fusion Off specifically? [07:12] >> So, I actually joined Ozero when they [07:16] weren't a huge player in the space. Um, [07:18] I think I was like employee number 150 [07:20] or something. uh and I got to experience [07:24] kind of that startup rocket ship phase [07:28] and that was really exciting to me. It [07:31] was it was my first time working at a [07:32] startup. Um and it was we were moving [07:35] fast and we were breaking things and we [07:37] were trying to break into like the IM [07:39] industry to become what they have become [07:41] now. you know, which is I I think it's [07:45] awesome that that they've succeeded to [07:46] that degree because I remember when [07:48] nobody knew who we were, [laughter] [07:49] >> right? [07:49] >> Uh at while working there. Um, and I [07:53] think that the thing that really excited [07:55] me about fusion off, there's a couple of [07:57] things, but one being the start I like [08:00] working at startups and I like working [08:01] at startups that are at, you know, [08:04] roughly this stage because you everybody [08:07] makes a huge impact [clears throat] [08:09] >> and that was kind of one of the things [08:11] that going to bigger companies and then [08:13] working at corporations, I I felt like I [08:18] could probably make an impact, but it [08:19] was going to take me like two or three [08:21] years to do it. And at a startup, you [08:24] can really you can really make and show [08:27] that impact quite early and everybody [08:30] can do it. Like anybody from IC all the [08:33] way up to, you know, like VP um can have [08:36] that impact and show it and everybody [08:38] can recognize it and see and you can see [08:40] what you've done for a company. And I [08:42] think that that kind of more instant [08:46] gratification is something that I really [08:47] like at work about working at smaller [08:50] companies. Um and then like why Fusion [08:53] Off uh especially after working for [08:55] other other id companies. Um, one of the [08:59] first questions that I asked uh when I [09:02] was approached about the role was what [09:04] makes Fusion different because I think [09:07] after after Ozero got acquired for $6 [09:09] billion, [laughter] there were a lot of [09:11] id companies that popped up, right? And [09:13] there's way more of them now than there [09:15] were when I was at Ozero, like by far. [09:18] >> Um, and so they all kind of do the same [09:21] thing, right? And right [09:24] >> so you know my first question is why why [09:27] fusion? Why are we different? [09:29] >> And really it comes down to we're [09:32] downloadable. [09:33] >> Okay. [09:33] >> And so you can run the fusion [09:36] authorization server as a part of your [09:38] core infrastructure. And the advantages [09:41] you get from this as far as like [09:43] security and and the ability to own [09:46] everything and to end are often things [09:48] that you would like when people care [09:53] deeply about that um like if fusion [09:56] didn't exist they'd usually be reaching [09:59] for like open source solutions like key [10:01] and that type of thing. Um, and I [10:03] thought it was really interesting and [10:06] differentiated that we do onrem for [10:09] free. Um, if you want to have an on-prem [10:11] conversation with a lot of these SAS [10:13] companies, that's, you know, locked [10:14] behind a big sales call and it will cost [10:17] a lot of money, [10:18] >> right? [10:18] >> Um, [10:20] >> but yeah, so we also have like a cloud [10:23] offering, but it's single tenant. So you [10:27] are the customers who are on the cloud [10:29] don't share infrastructure with the [10:31] other customers [10:31] >> right [10:32] >> um so it's dedicated instances yeah [10:35] >> which uh I think is also cool but for [10:38] myself I'll probably always just [10:40] download Fusion whenever I need off like [10:42] into the future [10:44] >> because it it was one of those things [10:46] where I didn't realize how much I liked [10:50] that like owning it [10:52] >> until I actually had it like running on [10:56] my machine [10:57] >> and I could put in like a config file [11:00] and spin up a new environment like [11:02] really quickly. I could make changes to [11:03] the environments and you know do all of [11:06] this transferring of of configuration [11:08] and and things like that [11:10] >> that I just like wouldn't have been able [11:13] to do with a SAS product. Mhm. [11:15] >> Um and that that level of ownership like [11:18] there is a movement out there, you know, [11:21] in general the local first stuff where [11:23] people, you know, are really focusing on [11:25] what can they own and run. Um and I [11:29] hadn't really been, you know, part of [11:30] that community. Like it wasn't [11:32] necessarily something that I thought too [11:33] hard about. Most of the companies I [11:34] worked for were SAS companies. Um, so I [11:37] didn't I think realize how much I would [11:39] like it [11:40] >> once I could actually like own and and [11:44] control this thing that also is being [11:47] governed by a body of people who know [11:51] really well and will make sure that you [11:53] know nothing bad is happening. Whereas [11:55] you know when you uh implement homegrown [11:58] you're you're kind of at the mer of your [12:00] own knowledge. Uh, so you could have it [12:04] was like you could have the local thing, [12:06] have your cake and eat it too, which [12:08] which I definitely appreciated and [12:11] actually hadn't used an a solution that [12:12] did that before. Yeah, I was actually [12:15] just like thinking about how like if you [12:17] for any SAS product that's that you're [12:18] integrating into your site or whatever [12:21] like if it's just if it's hosted [12:23] somewhere then if you're working locally [12:26] you have to figure out some way of like [12:28] either authorizing that local connection [12:30] or like figure out. So it'd be it'd be a [12:32] huge benefit to just be able just for [12:33] local development and local testing uh [12:35] to be able to stand it up uh on your own [12:38] thing or like inci like [12:40] >> just like multiple environments like any [12:42] anything like that and and like the I [12:46] think the configuration thing is [12:49] something that maybe at Fusion we don't [12:51] talk about enough. [12:53] >> Um you can have this configuration file [12:55] called a kickstart and it's basically a [12:57] JSON file that makes a bunch of calls to [12:59] the API. um when you run it. So you can [13:03] put in like a custom theme, you can have [13:06] it create specific users, you can have [13:08] it create uh applications with a [13:10] specific ID. Um it basically anything [13:13] the API can do you can put into the [13:16] kickstart and it will do it for you [13:18] automatically like as soon as you spin [13:19] up as soon as you like run Docker [13:21] Compose. [13:22] >> Um and so you can duplicate environments [13:24] extremely easily that way. Um, and you [13:27] know, change things that that make a [13:30] change, an environmental change that [13:32] then you can just give everybody that [13:34] kickstart file and and a bunch of people [13:36] can can have the same config like in a [13:38] couple of seconds. [13:39] >> Yeah. [13:39] >> Um, and that was something that [13:41] especially like for me in DevO like [13:44] creating demos and that type of thing [13:45] instead of having like this huge long [13:47] setup where like first you go into apps [13:49] and then you have to copy and paste this [13:50] this client ID or whatever. Um, I I can [13:54] just set all of that up for you and you [13:56] can like be productive right away. [13:59] >> Which I love. But it was also funny [14:02] because when I first started at Fusion, [14:04] the very first time I used it and it ran [14:07] a Kickstart and I was like, "Oh my god, [14:08] a bunch of things just happened [14:09] magically." [snorts] Like, "How do I [14:11] have all this stuff set up?" Like, I [14:13] didn't know where it came from. Um, I [14:15] think just because we don't talk about [14:17] the Kickstart very much. Um, but having, [14:21] you know, done a bunch of things with [14:22] Fusion off now, I I really like it's [14:25] it's one of the highlights [laughter] [14:27] for me of set of the setup process is [14:30] having the ability to do that. Um [14:33] >> yeah, [14:34] >> we give full access to the API. Like [14:35] developers can access anything in the [14:36] API [14:37] >> and that's part of like the role that we [14:39] play in Devril is is like when a magic [14:42] thing happens like demystifying the [14:45] magic part like like like yeah it is [14:48] magic but also let me tell you let me [14:50] walk you through all of those uh all of [14:52] those things that just happened that [14:53] made the magic that you're seeing so [14:55] that you don't have to worry about these [14:56] things. [14:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's that's [14:59] kind of like the philosophy around how I [15:02] think about teaching people stuff about [15:04] Oth. Um I know for me like probably the [15:08] first example of something that I was [15:09] like this is a black box and I really [15:11] don't understand it was Jason Web tokens [15:14] >> like how they're signed [15:16] >> and and that part was like every article [15:19] that I ever read was just like and then [15:21] you sign it and magic [laughter] and I [15:24] was like but what's happening like and [15:27] it was that mean? What does those words [15:29] mean? [15:30] >> Yeah, but it was it was interesting. Um [15:34] because it's not that I wanted to do it [15:36] myself, like I didn't want to have to [15:38] write the code that would actually [15:40] execute all of that. Like I'm totally [15:41] fine using a library. [15:42] >> Yeah. [15:43] >> But it was just this mystery thing that [15:44] like was a secret. Um, and I like I like [15:49] exposing those secrets, not so that [15:52] people can go do it themselves, but so [15:54] they understand how things work and then [15:57] they can have that confidence again like [15:59] that that it's being done right and that [16:02] they understand what's been done even if [16:04] they weren't the ones to actually like [16:06] write the code, stuff like that. [16:09] >> Yeah. So [16:10] >> what was your um tell me about your your [16:13] journey into tech broadly and then [16:17] transitioning like into like developer [16:20] relations as a focus? I feel like the [16:21] the story of how we got we get into [16:23] Devril is always sort of like uh often a [16:26] meandering uh sort of journey. [16:28] >> A lot of people just fall into it or [16:30] they're doing Devril for a long time and [16:32] their role doesn't say developer [16:34] relations. [16:34] >> Exactly. Recognize that's what they've [16:36] been doing forever. Um, and that [16:39] actually wasn't the case for me. So, I [16:42] uh had um actually gotten my degree in [16:46] animal behavior neurobiology. [16:48] >> That is totally lends itself to [16:50] developer relations. [16:51] >> Yeah. As a child, I I was like, I'm [16:54] going to be a doctor. And then I was [16:55] like, I'm going to be a scientist. And [16:56] then I went to college for science. And [16:59] I really enjoyed it. Like I loved it. Um [17:02] but then as I was you know kind of [17:04] reaching the end of my degree it be it [17:08] was you know abundantly apparent to me [17:09] that if I wanted to continue to build a [17:12] career in the things that I was [17:14] interested in most likely it would mean [17:16] that I would need to get a doctorate and [17:18] I would also need to teach. [17:21] >> So I would need to teach college while [17:24] in the summer I got grants and and did [17:27] research. And the irony is at the time I [17:30] was like, "Well, I probably don't want [17:32] to teach. I don't want to teach people." [17:33] [laughter] Uh, so, you know, looking [17:36] back on it now, I probably would have [17:37] loved it. Maybe I would have become a [17:39] college professor instead. Um, but at [17:42] the at the time, I was like, "Oh, well, [17:44] maybe maybe that's not like the thing [17:47] that I want to spend the next eight [17:48] years doing." [17:50] >> And so, I had taught myself how to code [17:55] as many people did, right? Um, I think [17:57] when I was in like fifth grade, I went [17:59] to summer science camp and they had like [18:02] an hour or something they spent teaching [18:04] us HTML. And this was this was even like [18:07] CSS was not a thing yet. [18:08] >> Yeah. Right. [18:09] >> Um, and I had then, you know, gone on to [18:12] make 500 geo cities sites on every [18:16] little thing that I was interested in. [18:18] >> Had the like little under construction [18:20] gif and guest book and the page counter. [18:24] >> Um, yeah. So basically anything that [18:27] interested me I just made a [laughter] [18:29] city site about it and that whole time [18:33] like as a kid I it never somehow [18:35] occurred to me that that could be a [18:36] career [18:37] >> right? [18:38] >> I was just like this is a thing I do for [18:39] fun and I'm going to be a scientist. [18:42] [laughter] So, so then it like that [18:45] perpetuated though all all the way kind [18:47] of through college because I had decided [18:51] okay maybe I don't want to be a [18:52] professor so I'm going to get a second [18:54] degree in human bio and dietetics [18:57] >> um because overlaps with a lot of the [18:58] science that I already had and while I [19:01] was doing that degree which was going to [19:04] take a much shorter time because I had a [19:05] lot of prerex done but while I was doing [19:07] that I got a job at the university [19:10] >> doing [19:11] front-end development and design and IIA [19:15] and I was doing that like to you know [19:19] pay the bills and it was at that time I [19:22] still didn't see it as a viable career [19:23] [laughter] like I had a job doing it and [19:25] I was still like and I'm going to be you [19:27] know a dietitian now. [19:29] >> Yeah. Um, and I guess it it took a while [19:33] of me uh suddenly realizing I wasn't [19:37] getting paid enough, [19:38] >> right, [19:39] >> for my work to actually go and start [19:41] looking at like other real jobs doing [19:44] that. And I had basically a full-time [19:48] job before I graduated and it was a [19:50] full-time job at an digital agency, not [19:52] in science. Um, and I was, you know, [19:56] leaving a little bit early to finish [19:58] like my last classes for this other [20:00] degree. [20:01] >> Um, and I think like at at that point I [20:06] shifted my focus for the degree because [20:08] I was so deep into getting a second [20:10] degree. I wanted to still walk away with [20:12] one. Um, [20:13] >> so I switched to uh like digital media [20:16] arts and communications [20:19] um and [20:21] knew everything that they were teaching [20:23] us because you know they're they were [20:25] teaching beginning code stuff right [20:27] >> so so it was easy but that [20:31] that phase I think was when I realized [20:33] oh okay like this is going to be my [20:35] career it's not anything like what I [20:37] thought it was going to be [20:39] >> you know when I was a kid or when I even [20:40] when I enter college Um, so then I [20:44] worked at uh digital agencies for a [20:48] while. Um, I did more front-end [20:51] development and then eventually did um [20:54] engineering management and architecture [20:56] and that type of thing. And uh then I [21:00] had a baby and I so I was gone for like [21:04] 3 months and I came back and I just [21:07] remember like the designer met me [21:09] outside the door like in the parking lot [21:11] when I was coming back and he was like [21:13] wait until you see this. [21:15] >> So I got in and immediately basically [21:18] started working 100 hour worked weeks. [21:20] >> I was getting home at like 2:00 in the [21:22] morning. It was it was absolutely [21:23] ridiculous. [21:24] >> No. Um so I was missing milestones like [21:26] for my kid and I I you know had said [21:30] okay I can't I can't sustain this. Um [21:34] >> and so I applied for jobs and and [21:38] I had met some people at a conference [21:40] that you know I had just attended for [21:42] work to learn stuff. Um and they said oh [21:45] we work at a zero like you should you [21:47] should apply especially if you like to [21:49] write and teach you know like make [21:51] tutorials and stuff. And I was like oh [21:53] yeah that sounds fun. Um, so I joined [21:55] Ozero on the content team. Um, basically [22:00] we were developers who could write. So [22:03] everybody was an engineer, everybody [22:04] knew how to code. Um, and [22:08] got to write about pretty much anything [22:11] that I found interesting as long as I [22:13] could tie it in some way back to Oth. [22:15] And even in those in those early days, [22:17] like we even didn't always write about O [22:20] at all. like there are old articles on [22:22] that blog that don't have anything to do [22:24] with [22:24] >> O. [22:25] >> Um but because I later went to a [22:28] conference and somebody was like where [22:30] do you work and I was like a zero and [22:32] they were like oh I love that blog [22:34] [laughter] like they didn't even know we [22:35] were an O company they just blog. So, [22:39] uh, eventually, you know, I I got to a [22:43] few leadership roles, um, and managing [22:45] additional teams and had the opportunity [22:48] to speak at a conference, um, because we [22:51] had an advocate who was like on his way [22:53] out, but he had already made this [22:54] commitment, right? [22:55] >> He didn't actually work at the company [22:56] anymore at the time of the conference. [22:57] So, he said, "Do you want to do you want [22:59] to speak with me?" [23:00] >> Because you do actually still work [23:01] there. Um, and I thought it sounded [23:05] terrifying [23:06] and thought I should definitely do it [23:08] because it sounds terrifying and it [23:10] seems like something I should do. [23:12] >> And it was terrifying. [23:14] >> But I found out that I really really [23:16] enjoyed it. So I started applying to [23:18] speak at more conferences. Um, I started [23:21] traveling and speaking and eventually um [23:24] ended up leading global devril at Ozero. [23:29] um having come from doing a ton of devro [23:33] while I was not on the dev team, [23:35] >> right? [23:35] >> Um but yeah, ever since then I I have [23:39] only had devil roles after that. I mean [23:42] developers who write is kind of like one [23:46] of the or two of the qualifications like [23:49] that I would list under the role of like [23:52] developer relations anything you know [23:54] like it's such a small ven diagram [23:56] because most developers are super just [24:01] very technical uh very like like sort of [24:06] focused on their on their area of of [24:09] interest but not necess necessarily able [24:12] to make the words good. Um, and it often [24:15] takes somebody like [24:18] me, like I I wanted to be a writer or [24:22] something creative, right? Like when I [24:24] was a kid, I wanted to be a writer or a [24:26] rockstar, one of those two things. Um, [24:29] and uh, and not a rockstar in the tech [24:32] bro sense. Like a [laughter] literal [24:35] songwriter. [24:37] >> I I said that out loud. I'm like, "Wait [24:39] a second. [laughter] [24:40] I don't want to be that kind of [24:41] rockstar. [24:42] >> Um [24:43] >> but uh but yeah, so I I you know did a [24:46] lot of writing and so and and as a [24:48] developer I did a lot of writing too but [24:51] it was never part of my job until you [24:53] know I took the role and I was like yeah [24:55] I'm doing this because I've been doing [24:56] it but also because I'm good at it and [24:58] it's fun and it gets to flex the muscles [25:01] the creative muscles that I don't get to [25:02] do in like an engineering role. [25:04] >> Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. Totally. And and [25:06] that's what like I found it really [25:08] refreshing to um coming off of doing all [25:12] like production production work for [25:14] external clients um who you know were [25:18] various levels of difficult to work [25:19] with. [25:20] >> Yeah. [25:21] >> I'm not even sure there was anybody who [25:22] was like really easy to work with. I [25:24] think it was all just varying levels of [25:25] difficult. [laughter] [25:27] >> But you know I loved it because the work [25:29] changed all the time, [25:30] >> right? Um, and so if you had one hellish [25:33] project, like hopefully in a year, you [25:36] wouldn't be on that project anymore. Um, [25:39] but I I really kind of was still able to [25:42] sort of get that doing the writing [25:44] because we could basically write what [25:47] about whatever we wanted, whatever we [25:48] were interested in. So anything that I [25:50] wanted to learn, I was just like, okay, [25:52] I'm going to write an article about [25:53] this, a tutorial on how to integrate off [25:55] with, you know, X new thing that came [25:58] out because I want to learn learn thing. [26:01] >> Um, so I got farther and farther away [26:03] from production code. Like I, you know, [26:06] obviously haven't done client work since [26:08] then. Um, and once in a while I I kind [26:11] of miss getting getting some wireframes [26:14] and getting a design and slicing it up [26:16] and doing all the things. But uh I I [26:20] still get to um like write a ton of code [26:25] in in these types of roles. And that is [26:28] another thing that just like I really [26:30] value um about being in Devro is I still [26:34] get to write code but I also get to [26:36] teach people and do [26:39] talks and things like that. So [26:42] >> and things like this. [26:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, [26:47] my brain completely stopped functioning [26:49] for a second. Uh, there is a thing that [26:52] I was going to ask. Uh, [26:55] oh my god. [laughter] [26:58] >> Um, tell me about making small things. [27:02] [laughter] [27:03] >> Uh, yeah. So, I make miniatures as a [27:07] hobby. It was a pandemic hobby. Um, I [27:11] had, ever since I was really little, I [27:14] had a dollhouse that my grandparents [27:16] made me like handmade and I always loved [27:20] making little things for the dollhouse, [27:21] like I'd make the little Play-Doh hot [27:24] dog in a in a bottle cap or something. [27:26] Um, and so I always was interested in in [27:30] little things. And over during the [27:32] pandemic, I think I was just like [27:35] looking at stuff on Instagram and stuff [27:37] and I was like, "Oh, people make this [27:38] amazing super realistic tiny food and it [27:41] looks so real and it's so cool." And [27:44] then I [27:45] watched a couple tutorials and I was [27:47] like, "Oh, they're using polymer clay. [27:50] Anybody can buy polymer clay." Like, [27:51] it's not a special [27:53] >> magical thing that you, you know, need [27:56] to be super experienced in to even get [27:59] your hands on. Um, and so I started [28:02] making miniature polymer clay food and [28:05] got quite into it and then started [28:08] making other things as well. Um, I've [28:10] made like a katan board and and stuff [28:12] like that. um [28:15] and had gotten kind of I through the [28:19] course of like the tiny things uh COVID [28:22] thing, I started getting into mechanical [28:24] keyboards and uh [28:28] artisan keycaps. So, I started [28:32] experimenting with making artisan [28:33] keycaps with polymer clay. And there's a [28:36] lot of kind of thought and design that [28:37] has to go into that because you need to [28:38] design them in a way they're not going [28:40] to break. Mhm. [28:41] >> And then from there I actually started [28:44] getting into resin casting. So then I [28:47] now I resin cast uh artisan caps um as [28:51] well as make the tiny food [snorts] um [28:54] and game boards. Mhm. [28:57] Um, oh I remember the thing I was going [28:59] to say uh [29:02] that well and it sort of tangentially [29:05] relates uh because uh the question we [29:08] were talking about um speaking and you [29:10] were talking about being terrified uh [29:13] and developer relations and from from my [29:17] experience but also from like I've been [29:19] speaking at events but for long before I [29:21] was you know a developer advocate um but [29:25] it involves a lot of like speaking or [29:27] being in front of people or whatever. Um [29:29] I like in high school and into college [29:32] uh a little bit was in really into [29:35] theater. So like I was in film and so I [29:37] was like all about being in front of [29:39] people. Um which is another thing that [29:41] like most engineers like are very much [29:45] like very introverted. would much rather [29:48] just sit in a room that is dark and [29:50] stare at their computer and just type [29:52] code for without interacting with [29:54] another human being for most of the day. [29:56] Um whereas I definitely, you know, enjoy [30:00] being around people or being in in [30:03] spaces where I can, you know, like talk [30:05] to people and have have conversations [30:06] and things. Um, and that makes so that [30:10] makes the speaking thing less slightly [30:13] less of a uh nightmarish horrifying [30:17] thing for me because it's just a form of [30:20] natural being on stage thing. [30:22] >> Um, [30:23] >> so uh all that to say um where on the [30:27] sort of introversion extroversion uh [30:29] spectrum do you see yourself? Because I [30:31] I I have a suspicion [30:34] [laughter] [30:35] >> I'm I'm an outgoing introvert. Okay. [30:37] >> So, I I love to speak. I love to [30:40] interact with people. I love to be out [30:42] and about and doing these things. And [30:44] then I need a little bit of time by [30:46] myself in order to recover. [30:47] >> Yeah. [30:48] >> So, I don't you know, the classic, I [30:50] think, definition of an extrovert is you [30:53] get energy by doing those things. [30:55] >> Yeah. [30:56] >> And then introversion is when you get [30:59] energy by being by yourself. And I think [31:02] people often confuse introversion and [31:05] like shyness or because you can totally [31:08] be an extremely outgoing introvert. [31:11] >> It's just that the way you recover from [31:13] like [clears throat] it drains your [31:14] energy to do that instead of like giving [31:15] you more energy. [31:16] >> Yeah. [31:17] >> Um so that's definitely uh where where [31:19] I'd classify myself. But as a child, [31:22] like I think the words painfully shy [31:24] would probably be an accurate like like [31:28] painfully shy like hide behind my [31:30] parents like in public when somebody [31:32] talked to me type of shy. [31:34] >> Um so you know it surprised even me that [31:37] this was something that I was actually [31:38] really interested in. [31:40] >> Yeah. [31:40] >> Like wrote as an adult. But um I think [31:44] speaking if you are introverted speaking [31:47] at conferences is actually an awesome [31:48] way to to go and um have give people a [31:54] reason to talk to you. [31:55] >> Yeah. [31:56] >> Like it's I've been to conferences [31:58] alone. It kind of it's hard especially [32:01] if you're an introvert. Yeah. [32:03] >> To find people to talk to and stuff like [32:05] that. But if you apply to speak at an [32:08] event and you get up and speak, people [32:10] will come and find you and talk to you. [32:12] >> Mhm. [32:13] >> And I think that that doing a lot more [32:16] of that also helped me to be less shy. [32:20] Um so yeah. [32:22] >> Yeah. I I it's definitely a thing like I [32:25] I remember having a conversation with my [32:27] father-in-law um who would have uh [32:32] identified himself as an introvert but [32:35] also like he was a pastor. He was like [32:39] very much in front of people a lot of [32:41] the time and like it was just something [32:45] that he like he learned to adapt and to [32:48] be that role even while it's not [32:50] necessarily like the natural role but [32:53] like because of social circumstance [32:55] because he's male because of all sorts [32:56] of all sorts of other reasons um and and [32:58] where he was in the sort of [33:01] organizations and things that he did uh [33:03] he just sort of gravitated to that thing [33:05] and just like learned learned how to [33:07] kind of learned the techniques he needed [33:10] to kind of muscle through in a way. Um I [33:14] definitely find when I go to events and [33:15] I'm I'm around people um all day long um [33:20] I I definitely need that time to [33:22] recharge is like super it's like [33:24] exhausting. But I also I I I I just [33:27] always find it interesting because like [33:29] part of the role of developer relations [33:31] is the relations part, you know, it's [33:33] it's the interacting with other humans. [33:35] And so it's it's like built in. Um but I [33:38] don't think that that necessarily means [33:40] that we're all super extroverted. Um we [33:43] are also many of us still kind of coders [33:46] at heart. [33:48] >> I I would even say that probably more [33:51] than half of the people that I know who [33:53] who are in deval are introverts. Mhm. [33:55] >> Um because it it's basically a [33:57] discipline that puts you in a position [33:59] where you will be pulled out of your [34:02] shell by external factors and you don't [34:04] have to force yourself out of it on your [34:06] own. [34:06] >> Um and I think that that that really [34:09] has, you know, obviously I've gotten [34:10] more comfortable with all of this stuff, [34:12] but [34:13] >> um [34:14] >> I had I had kind of [laughter] an [34:16] interesting revelation. I went to Cedar [34:19] Point. I don't know if you're familiar [34:20] with Cedar Point. Um, it's a massive [34:23] roller coaster park in the Midwest. And, [34:27] >> um, I had I love roller coasters and I [34:30] was riding, you know, like the the [34:32] biggest ones and and I realized I don't [34:35] get nervous about going on roller [34:36] coasters anymore, like at all. And like [34:39] there's no physical reaction. I'm just [34:41] like, yay. But [laughter] I and and I [34:44] realized like how much, you know, people [34:46] are adrenaline junkies and and you you [34:49] can get that adrenaline the like couple [34:52] of moments before you walk on stage in [34:54] front of like a huge crowd. Um, and I [34:58] had this kind of revelation about the [35:00] roller coaster thing is like, oh, like [35:03] that was part of why I like roller [35:05] coasters is like feeling that feeling [35:07] before you get on. And I think that's [35:09] why I like those few moments before like [35:13] peak they say peak scary is like you [35:15] know the moments that you're walking up [35:16] to the stage. [35:17] >> Yeah. [35:18] >> And and I was like [35:20] >> I haven't spoken in a while because of [35:22] the pandemic. Um at least not in like [35:25] out in an actual physical event, right? [35:27] >> And I'm about to do a couple events and [35:29] I was kind of like I hope I get nervous [35:31] [laughter] [35:32] >> which is kind of funny. But uh yeah. [35:35] >> Yeah. That's awesome. That's a really [35:37] interesting insight. Like I wouldn't [35:38] even have thought about that connection, [35:40] but like Yeah. Um that like the minute [35:43] that that the roller coaster isn't [35:45] doesn't make you nervous, then it [35:47] becomes less enjoyable. [35:49] >> Yeah. Cuz like a lot of it is kind of [35:50] the hype like building yourself up to to [35:53] do this thing and then [35:54] >> Well, and a really good example like I [35:56] remember the the first I think the first [35:58] roller coaster that I had ever been on [36:00] was probably Space Mountain at [36:01] Disneyland. And this was [36:04] probably [36:07] um maybe the 80s or early 90s. So, it [36:11] was they they've done a couple like [36:13] renovations of it since then and it's [36:14] it's much less dark and much less scary. [36:17] Um but at the time it was like you go in [36:19] and it's pitch black and there's maybe a [36:22] couple just like tiny little lights that [36:24] are like stars that that that are going [36:26] around. Um and there's like a loud [36:30] whooshing like wind noise. Um and you [36:33] can't see anything. And I I remember [36:35] like and so the sound and the sound of [36:37] people screaming and not being able to [36:39] see anything and it was I remember being [36:42] terrified as a kid, but I was like [36:43] musling through it. And so I [laughter] [36:46] I did like I I tell my partner this and [36:49] she's like, "You're weird." Um [36:53] >> because like I closed my eyes and that [36:55] made it better somehow. I'm not entirely [36:58] sure how because you couldn't see [36:59] anything anyway, but it made it better [37:00] for me. And then that that's how I got [37:02] through that that initial sort of terror [37:05] of like roller coasters was I would just [37:07] close my eyes. But like now but like I [37:09] remember that like it was so um there's [37:12] so much of of that. It wasn't even like [37:14] >> it wasn't even the ride itself. Like the [37:16] ride is almost fine. It was like all of [37:18] the leadup. It's like the the ramp up [37:20] the hill is like hearing the sounds and [37:22] hearing all of the other stuff and the [37:23] sound of the coaster itself and like [37:25] everything. That was the scary part. [37:26] Like once you get going it's like it's [37:28] 30 seconds of your life. Like it doesn't [37:29] even it's nothing. Yeah. [37:32] >> Yeah. So I guess like the that like [37:34] click click up the hill is like what [37:36] what the walking up to the stage is like [37:38] >> the anticipation. [37:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. [37:40] >> And I I hadn't realized just how big of [37:43] a component that was in my enjoyment of [37:46] roller coasters until I went and didn't [37:49] feel it anymore. [37:50] >> Yeah. [37:50] >> And I was like this is actually [37:51] [laughter] really disappointing. like [37:53] what what am I gonna I'm gonna have to [37:55] like do more crazy like or something [38:00] because I this is like not I I'm not [38:03] getting nervous. [38:04] >> Um [38:05] >> skydiving. [38:06] >> Yeah. I mean like we've talked about it [38:07] a bunch of times [laughter] actually [38:09] like me and my husband. Um so yeah. [38:12] >> Yeah. I I have a um I've been taking uh [38:16] aerial classes, aerial arts classes and [38:18] and so like for me like heights is a [38:21] thing for me. So, like now, but now I [38:23] can like climb up a silk or whatever and [38:24] be up at the top and not feel like super [38:26] scared. Um, but like one of my [38:28] instructors recently went skydiving and [38:30] took lots of pictures and I'm just [38:31] looking at the pictures like, "Nope, [38:32] nope. Absolutely not. Nope. I can see." [38:35] Fun for you. [laughter] [38:38] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's kind of like [38:39] where I was lukewarm on it for a while [38:42] just because I was like, I just I just [38:44] don't need to do that. [38:45] >> Yeah. But now now that the [38:47] [clears throat] roller coaster thing is [38:48] like not exciting. I was like maybe [38:50] maybe that now. Um because Yeah. [38:54] >> What events are you speaking at? You [38:55] mentioned that you're you have a couple [38:56] uh speaking uh gigs. [38:58] >> Yeah. So I'll be speaking at JSCOM and [39:01] NG comp and they're colllocated. So [39:04] they're both um in the same place in [39:07] mid-occtober. So just like a couple of [39:08] weeks. [39:09] >> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Coming right up. Um, [39:12] and then, uh, where where can people [39:15] find you on the internet and find your [39:16] your tiny things? [39:18] >> Um, my tiny things are on, uh, my so my [39:24] like art name or whatever is MI. [39:28] Um, or it's [39:32] Mihi- [39:34] Mini.studio. [39:36] So, it's Mihei Mini Studio is uh what [39:40] what it's called. But um in general, I [39:43] think maida.kimconnect [39:46] is where I is, you know, my equivalent [39:49] of linkree. [39:50] >> Uh is is where I'm mostly at. And these [39:53] days, like I'm social media wise, I [39:55] spend more time on LinkedIn. [39:57] >> Yeah. [39:57] >> Than other platforms. [39:58] >> Yeah. [39:59] >> Mostly. [40:00] >> But not not that that's a bad thing. I'm [40:02] like [laughter] [40:03] acting all disappointed or [40:04] >> Right. No, it's true. You know, I guess [40:06] it's it's been great, but it's just [40:09] funny because I never really thought of [40:11] the platform like that before. [40:12] >> Right. No, there was a certain point [40:13] where I where I started using LinkedIn [40:16] more for for just I just using it more [40:19] period honestly. Um because there was a [40:22] long period of time where like okay, [40:23] when I'm looking for a job, that's when [40:25] I care about my LinkedIn. But but yeah, [40:27] now I I sort of [40:29] >> check it more frequently and possibly [40:32] more than other things as well. Um well, [40:34] thanks coming for coming on, Kim. Uh and [40:37] uh thank you everybody who might be [40:40] watching this or coming to this later or [40:42] listening to this on on the audio [40:44] version. Um and uh yeah, we'll we'll see [40:47] you on the internet. [40:49] >> Great. Thanks so much for having me. [40:57] [music]