Episode 12 Christos Paloukas - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 12: Christos Paloukas 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 12: Christos Paloukas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCBaKaAec_A) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, community, performance-engineering] > author: Community and Code Podcast > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCBaKaAec_A > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 12: Christos Paloukas - WordPress Performance Engineering and Community Building >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Contact animal welfare organizations for volunteer opportunities — personal development #community - [H2] Review caching strategies for WordPress performance optimization — technical improvement #performance - [H3] Reach out directly to underrepresented speakers for WordCamp events — diversity initiative #inclusion ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Community and Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCBaKaAec_A) - [Presidium Hosting](https://presidium.com) ## 📝 Summary - What happened: Interview with Christos Paloukas, performance engineer at Presidium and WordCamp Athens co-organizer - Why it matters: Provides insights into WordPress performance optimization and community event organization challenges - Key stakeholders: WordPress community members, hosting providers, event organizers - Risks and tradeoffs: Balancing technical performance with practical implementation, community diversity with volunteer availability - Bottom line: Performance engineering requires hands-on debugging rather than generic best practices, and inclusive community building requires active outreach ## 📖 Main Content Christos Paloukas works as a performance engineer at Presidium, a managed WordPress hosting company, where he focuses on optimizing WordPress sites through database tuning, server configuration, and identifying performance bottlenecks. Unlike generic optimization advice, his work requires custom solutions for each site since WordPress can be configured in countless ways. As a WordCamp Athens co-organizer, he's learned that successful events require significant coordination among volunteers who all have full-time jobs and personal lives. The organizing team faces challenges with sponsor relationships, speaker diversity, and managing communication with WordPress Central while serving as the primary contact point for attendees. His background includes moving from Chicago to Greece in 2010, military service, and involvement in animal rescue work. He's also developed a unique approach to camping with his rescue cat, demonstrating the kind of problem-solving mindset he brings to technical challenges. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=0) — Background and Introduction - Key idea: Christos moved from Chicago to Greece in 2010, originally for Cisco certifications - Evidence: "2010 was an iconic year for me when I moved to Greece from Chicago, Illinois" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=330) — Career Transition from Networking to WordPress - Key idea: Cisco certifications proved less valuable than expected in actual work - Evidence: "The best thing I ever did in my Cisco career was to stop taking those exams" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=735) — Performance Engineering Philosophy - Key idea: Performance optimization requires custom solutions rather than generic best practices - Evidence: "Performance engineers, we make shit faster... writing something like a SOP for audits would be very vague" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=1125) — Caching as Double-Edged Solution - Key idea: Caching can mask underlying performance issues while providing significant speed improvements - Evidence: "Caching is one of the best and worst things ever because it's like the easiest way to hide all your performance issues" #### ⏱️ [24:20](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=1460) — WordCamp Organizing Challenges - Key idea: Event organizing requires handling communication gaps and serving as primary contact point - Evidence: "You go to a restaurant... the waiter's going to take the shit... it kind of goes up" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=1930) — Community Recovery Post-COVID - Key idea: Local WordPress communities struggled to rebuild after pandemic disruption - Evidence: "Athens community had the same issue like after COVID we're probably still not back up to speed" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=2325) — WordCamp vs Commercial Events - Key idea: WordPress events balance community focus with business needs, creating confusion about purpose - Evidence: "I'm kind of confused. I think it's a bit of a mix and I don't know where the balance should be" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=2730) — Speaker Diversity Challenges - Key idea: Achieving diverse speaker lineups requires active outreach, not just open submissions - Evidence: "One of the issues that we faced was not having enough submissions from females" #### ⏱️ [52:15](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=3135) — Inclusivity Through Invitation - Key idea: True inclusivity means actively inviting people to participate, not just opening doors - Evidence: "Inclusivity doesn't mean like the doors open, you can enter because no one's going to come in" #### ⏱️ [58:40](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=3520) — Cat Camping Adventures - Key idea: Camping with rescue cats required immersion therapy and patience - Evidence: "I basically just, you know, climbing the side of this really steep hill with a can of tuna in my hand" #### ⏱️ [65:20](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=3920) — Animal Rescue Involvement - Key idea: Animal welfare work led to difficult situations requiring personal boundaries - Evidence: "I had to distance myself at some point because Greek law at that point was not sufficient enough" #### ⏱️ [70:15](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=4215) — Podcast Projects - Key idea: Creating focused podcasts requires finding people directly involved in solving WordPress ecosystem problems - Evidence: "You have to identify a problem in and around the WordPress ecosystem... relative to the solution" ## 📚 References - [Presidium Hosting](https://presidium.com) - [WordCamp Athens 2024](https://athens.wordcamp.org/2024/) - [Community and Code Podcast](https://communityandcode.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Performance engineering is about solving specific problems for individual WordPress sites rather than applying generic optimization rules - WordCamp organizing involves managing complex volunteer coordination while serving as the primary communication point for all stakeholders - Building inclusive communities requires actively inviting underrepresented participants rather than simply making opportunities available ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Performance: Beyond Generic Best Practices** This week's Community and Code podcast featured Christos Paloukas, who reminded us that WordPress performance optimization isn't about following checklists—it's about debugging specific bottlenecks for each unique site configuration. Key takeaway: "Performance engineers make things faster" by diving deep into individual site architectures, not by applying universal solutions. Whether it's database queries, server configuration, or caching strategies, every WordPress site presents different challenges. **Practical application:** Before implementing performance solutions, audit your specific site's pain points rather than following generic optimization guides. **Community insight:** WordCamp organizers face real challenges balancing volunteer coordination, sponsor relationships, and speaker diversity. Success requires active outreach, not passive opportunity posting. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core Performance: Profile specific bottlenecks before implementing generic optimizations - Community: Develop direct outreach strategies for diverse speaker recruitment at WordCamps - Training: Create case study-based performance troubleshooting curricula - Documentation: Document custom optimization approaches beyond standard best practices #### Community - Maintainers: Establish mentorship programs connecting experienced organizers with new WordCamp teams - Contributors: Create speaker invitation templates for inclusive event outreach - Sponsors: Develop clearer communication protocols between organizers and WordPress Central ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress performance optimization effectiveness increases when solutions target specific site architectures rather than applying generic best practices - WordCamp speaker diversity improves significantly through direct invitation rather than open call submissions alone - Animal rescue involvement develops problem-solving skills transferable to technical troubleshooting - Community event success correlates with organizer experience in service-industry communication ## 📊 Methodology - Performance auditing: Compare custom optimization approaches vs. generic checklist implementations - Event organization: Track speaker diversity metrics across invitation-based vs. submission-only recruitment - Community engagement: Measure post-COVID recovery rates for different community support strategies ## ❓ Questions - How can WordPress hosts better support performance debugging without revealing competitive advantages? - What communication protocols work best between local WordCamp organizers and WordPress Central? - How do service industry skills translate to effective community leadership? ## 🔮 Future Research - Develop performance optimization decision trees based on site architecture patterns - Create inclusive speaker recruitment playbooks for WordPress community events - Study correlation between volunteer burnout and community event sustainability ## 💡 Implications - Practice: Performance optimization requires site-specific debugging rather than generic solutions - Policy: Community events need clearer guidelines balancing business and community focus - Education: Technical troubleshooting skills may develop through non-technical volunteer experiences - Funding: WordCamp success depends on sustainable volunteer coordination models ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th grade (conversational podcast format) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Performance optimization examples, community organization challenges - Improve: Performance audit flowcharts, event planning timelines #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio available - Improve: Timestamp navigation for key technical concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed explanations of technical processes, analogies to restaurant service - Improve: Glossary of performance optimization terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Camping stories demonstrating problem-solving approaches - Improve: Hands-on performance debugging checklists #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Cause-and-effect relationships in performance optimization - Improve: Decision trees for troubleshooting approaches #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community organizing experiences, collaboration challenges - Improve: Group discussion prompts for community building #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual contributor perspectives on technical work - Improve: Self-assessment tools for performance optimization skills #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Animal rescue work demonstrating systematic approaches - Improve: Pattern recognition exercises for performance bottlenecks ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Timestamp navigation, clear heading structure - Improve: Detailed alt text for any performance diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Skip-to-section functionality for timestamp navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text formatting - Improve: High contrast options for technical terminology #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive text layout - Improve: Ensure technical details remain readable at 200% zoom #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with transcript - Improve: Timestamped captions for technical discussions #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic podcast interface - Improve: Accessible feedback forms for community insights ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Greece-US cultural perspectives, multilingual community challenges - Improve: Additional examples from diverse WordPress communities globally #### Inclusive language - Present: Awareness of speaker diversity challenges, inclusive terminology - Improve: More explicit discussion of accessibility in community events #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Various communication styles, service industry analogies - Improve: Recognition of different community participation preferences #### Representation - Present: Discussion of gender diversity challenges in tech events - Improve: Broader representation discussion beyond gender #### Psychological safety - Present: Honest discussion of community challenges, volunteer burnout - Improve: Strategies for supporting community member mental health ## ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear connection between site-specific problems and custom solutions - Inductive strength: Personal experiences supporting broader community principles - Causal reasoning: Direct relationship between active outreach and increased diversity - Analogical strength: Restaurant service comparison effectively illustrates organizer challenges #### Fallacies - Anecdotal evidence: Limited to personal experiences without broader data validation - Hasty generalization: Some conclusions about community organizing based on single event experience #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, honest, self-reflective with technical expertise balanced by community awareness ## 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns detected - Attack: No attacks on accusers present - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals identified - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Genuine frustration with systemic challenges, authentic personal sharing ## 🎯 Conclusion This conversation highlights the gap between generic advice and practical implementation in both technical and community contexts. Christos demonstrates that effective WordPress performance optimization requires hands-on debugging of specific site architectures rather than applying universal best practices. Similarly, building inclusive WordPress communities demands active outreach and invitation rather than passive opportunity posting. For practitioners, the key insight is that both technical troubleshooting and community building benefit from service-oriented thinking—understanding that you're solving specific problems for specific people rather than implementing abstract solutions. The discussion also reveals the ongoing challenges facing WordPress communities post-COVID, suggesting that sustainable community building requires recognizing volunteer limitations and developing better support systems for organizers balancing full-time work with community contribution. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### Performance Engineering Philosophy > [!quote] Episode 12: Christos Paloukas by Community and Code Podcast. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "Performance engineers, we make shit faster." Custom solutions outperform generic optimization checklists. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=735#performance-philosophy) #performance #wordpress ID:rw_001 ### Community Inclusivity Strategy > [!quote] Episode 12: Christos Paloukas > "Inclusivity doesn't mean like the doors open, you can enter because no one's going to come in." Active invitation creates meaningful participation opportunities. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/MCBaKaAec_A?t=3135#inclusivity-strategy) #community #diversity ID:rw_002 ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Caching masks underlying performance problems - WordPress sites with proper caching can hide significant architectural issues - Reference: 18:45 timestamp discussion of caching tradeoffs - Links: [[WordPress-Performance]] [[Technical-Debt]] #### [Z2] Event organizing requires service industry mindset - WordCamp organizers serve as primary contact point like restaurant waitstaff - Reference: 24:20 timestamp restaurant analogy - Links: [[Community-Management]] [[Volunteer-Coordination]] ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research EIGRP usage statistics in enterprise networks — validate Christos's claim #fleeting #research - [F2] Compare WordCamp diversity metrics before --- ## Full Transcript [00:18] Welcome to Community and Code, the [00:19] podcast about the human beings behind [00:22] the commits. I'm here today with [00:24] Christos Palucas who is uh in the [00:27] WordPress community, works at Precidium. [00:30] Tell me actually, why don't you I'll let [00:31] you introduce yourself. What do you do [00:33] and uh who are you and where in the [00:35] world are you? [00:36] >> I'm in Greece. I'm Christos and I do [00:39] work at Presidium. It's so much easier [00:41] when the host does the introductions, [00:42] but I love as a host myself uh for [00:45] podcasts I do passing it off to the [00:46] guest. [00:48] So, I've been in the IT space since I [00:52] don't know since school. I guess, but [00:53] like uh formally since 2010 or 2012, [00:58] 2010 was an iconic year for me when I [01:00] moved to Greece from Chicago, Illinois. [01:02] Born and raised in Chicago. Uh Burbank, [01:04] Illinois to be specific. A suburb just [01:06] outside of Chicago. Born in Evergreen [01:09] Park. This is the part where I talk [01:10] about long walks on the beach and how I [01:12] like them. Right. Um [01:13] >> yeah, [01:14] >> I'm a cat person. [01:15] >> Are there many? There's not very many [01:16] beaches in Chicago, though, right? [01:19] >> Well, there are. Uh [01:20] >> are there? [01:21] >> Yeah. Well, very many. I Does it count [01:24] as one? Like, you know, like like shore. [01:26] There's a lake. There's not a There's [01:28] not an ocean. It kind of smells funny. I [01:31] don't know. Yeah, I wasn't a fan. [01:33] >> Yeah, we have a smelly lake here, too. [01:35] >> Yeah, lakes are weird, especially [01:37] Chicago. Could you imagine how many [01:39] corpses are in there from like the mafia [01:41] days? [01:42] >> It's like rolled up rugs getting tossed. [01:45] Actually, uh, go ahead. I was going to [01:47] say we're uh I'm I'm in Salt Lake City, [01:49] so we have obviously the Great Salt Lake [01:50] and that smells weird for completely [01:52] different reasons. [01:53] >> Yeah. [01:55] >> Not not so much the mafia though. [01:59] >> Yeah, good point. Actually, when I was [02:00] in school, a fun random tangent, uh [02:02] there was kind of a thing to Okay, so [02:05] you know, people get shot in Chicago all [02:07] the time. you kind of get desensitized [02:08] to it for all the forced reasons, but it [02:11] was a thing to I don't know have a [02:13] shooting of sorts, burn the car and have [02:16] the car disposed of in the lake. [02:19] >> Okay. [02:20] >> Like I mean there's so many layers of [02:24] messed up on that with that. [02:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. [02:28] >> Greece is much more peaceful. Greece has [02:30] nice weather. Greece is nice. Cuts the [02:32] island. Got the islands. [02:34] >> What What took you to Greece? [02:37] Oh, I just ended up uh coming to Greece [02:38] so I can get some Cisco certifications [02:40] to like uh I don't know expand my [02:43] knowledge in it and whether I did it in [02:45] the states or whether I did it in [02:46] Greece, it would have been the same kind [02:47] of story. Everything would be in [02:49] English. So, it would have kind of [02:50] worked for me. I do speak Greek. My [02:52] Greek writing n it's not there. The [02:55] military helped. There's conscription in [02:57] Greece. So, if you want citizenship, you [02:58] have to go to the military as if you [03:00] were born a male [03:02] >> for nine months. It was for me 12 months [03:05] now. Uh, for some reason it's even [03:07] longer and we keep spending money on, I [03:10] don't know, like F-16s and our military [03:12] as if we're ever going to actually go to [03:14] war. [03:16] >> But, um, [03:19] I was I talking about the Greek and the [03:20] English and the speaking. [03:22] >> Yes. And going to Greece uh to do a [03:25] Cisco certification. [03:26] >> Yeah. I ended up doing all that. I But I [03:28] ended up finding myself in a [03:29] relationship that I was kind of [03:31] committed to at the time. And then I [03:32] found work and work turned into the [03:34] military and I don't know time passed [03:36] and I'm still here and it's been over a [03:38] decade. It's been 15 years. [03:40] >> That's impressive. [03:41] >> 25 now. Yeah, it's been 15 years. [03:44] >> Um, how's that Cisco certification [03:46] working for you? [03:48] >> I was just talking about this today with [03:49] one of my co-workers. Uh, he was talking [03:51] about getting the CCNA and I told him [03:53] that the best thing I ever did in my [03:55] Cisco career was to stop taking those [03:58] exams. [04:00] It was the most like relieving thing. It [04:03] was I think two or three years ago when [04:06] I had to give take the uh CCMP security [04:08] or something like greater to continue [04:12] having my Cisco certifications and I [04:14] never used like them ever in my [04:18] professional career. Sure, it's great. I [04:20] that's what I told him too. You get good [04:21] knowledge. You learn about how networks [04:23] work. We were talking about the OSI [04:25] model in comparison to the TCP IP model. [04:27] I hate that like we still use terms like [04:30] volutric and OS and like layer 4 and [04:34] layer three attacks for Presidium Edge. [04:37] We were talking about this how like you [04:38] know uh [04:40] L3 and L4 attacks are cut off at the [04:43] edge but I I I hate it. I I can't stand [04:46] it because the whole world works off the [04:47] TCP IP stack, right? OSI is great for [04:51] troubleshooting. you have to know it as [04:53] an IT guy. But I mean, why do we still [04:55] have to refer to things formally using [04:58] the OSI stack [05:02] >> there? There was a point in time uh when [05:04] I was doing tech support uh where and I [05:08] was doing well I so so the longer story [05:13] is I used to do tech support for MSN [05:15] when MSN was a thing um and when MSN was [05:18] was actually rivaling AOL to some extent [05:21] you know um as the like the thing that [05:24] you click on to get internet you know [05:27] like when that was a thing now everybody [05:30] just has internet all the time Um, so I [05:33] did that and then I moved from MSN to [05:36] basically the phone company that did DSL [05:38] support. Um, and a bunch of people that [05:42] I knew had or were taking Cisco [05:45] certification and I considered it for a [05:48] minute. Um but like at the time [05:54] uh we had so there was a point in time [05:56] where before I joined uh the the phone [06:00] company um they had given people Cisco [06:02] modems and so or Cisco routers actually [06:05] and so it would have been marginally [06:08] helpful like you actually would be [06:10] working with some of the things that [06:11] maybe you would be talking about because [06:12] no one really cares about the networking [06:14] stuff in like when you're doing DSL tech [06:16] support like you're not you're you're [06:18] not doing networking, you're doing like [06:20] the networking hitting the the router [06:22] and but you're not doing any internal [06:24] networking, right? [06:25] >> Yeah. [06:25] >> Um [06:26] >> so it would have been like kind of [06:28] tangentially okay. Uh but we were also [06:30] phasing that out. Um and rolling out [06:33] this is when like sort of at the [06:35] beginning of when phone companies were [06:37] like like rebranding like getting some [06:40] vendor and rebranding the modem and [06:41] putting their logo on it and like so was [06:43] and there's a crappy remote modem that [06:45] didn't let you do anything at all and [06:46] the Cisco link and everything in the [06:47] world. Yeah. Um, so I never did it. Um, [06:52] and I never actually thought that anyone [06:54] who did take it used any of that [06:56] information. So you just confirmed that [06:58] suspicion. I mean, it looks good, right? [07:00] It looks good to have a little like CCNA [07:02] whatever does badge. [07:05] >> Well, I mean, maybe some maybe not so [07:06] much anymore. It was more impressive [07:08] like 10 years ago, 15. [07:10] >> I thought it was too, right? So just [07:11] have that cute little CCNA thing with [07:13] the little but then you learn at the end [07:15] of the day that like I don't know there [07:16] was this scandal I guess it wasn't a [07:18] scandal but more of a realization where [07:21] large companies like that like Cisco [07:22] specifically I don't want to talk trash [07:23] about Cisco podcast but uh you you [07:27] figure out eventually that they get make [07:29] more of their most of their money off [07:30] their huge partnerships that they have [07:32] like you know gold partner silver [07:34] partner whatever of Cisco and through [07:36] training I don't remember the percentage [07:38] but it was huge like 30 40 50 Yeah, [07:41] >> was probably too much, but they make it [07:42] off training and training centers and [07:45] certifications, which makes sense [07:46] because one of my problems then was I [07:48] paid for the CCMP security exam and that [07:52] was like 350 if I remember correctly. [07:54] 300 350 euro. [07:57] It's a lump sum [07:59] >> to get certified in something you don't [08:01] use. Plus, the other thing that bugged [08:02] me is I don't know, let's go back to the [08:04] CCNA thing where I was talking to the [08:07] coworker back then. would learn, you [08:09] know, basic routing protocols and then [08:11] EIGRP. [08:13] No one uses EIGRP. [08:16] No one. [08:19] >> But it's good to theoretically know that [08:20] things exist, right? [08:22] >> Yeah. Not EIGRP, but it's good to know [08:24] how to work. [08:28] like they should really focus on well [08:29] they should have focused on it's been so [08:31] long now like you know routing protocols [08:33] or maybe even expand to things like BGP [08:36] that's widely used but no you have to be [08:39] a CCMP level or maybe even higher than [08:41] for BGP to actually get into the [08:43] curriculum [08:45] >> and for anyone who's listening who is [08:47] not following the the rapid fire uh [08:50] abbreviations we will we will definitely [08:52] move on from this part of the podcast uh [08:55] what do you do exactly at at Precedium [08:57] you're Your LinkedIn says you are a [08:58] performance engineer. What does a [09:00] performance engineer do? [09:01] >> My LinkedIn is right. So performance [09:03] engineers uh we make we make [ __ ] [09:05] faster. [09:07] >> We complex. [09:09] >> How do how do you engineer speed? [09:11] >> How do you engineer speed? You start [09:12] from the ground up. I guess uh by using [09:14] high speeded technologies or using like [09:16] if you want to go really technical you'd [09:18] start at the probably operating system [09:20] level. If not, even if we have like any, [09:23] I don't know, machine geeks or like [09:25] actual hardware geeks in the house, they [09:27] would probably argue it starts at the [09:31] machine level, which does make sense, [09:33] too. NVMEs do play a role. They're not [09:36] they're significantly faster than like [09:37] the older SSDs, the solid state discs [09:40] and spinning discs. They do die out much [09:42] faster. But anyway, uh the role of a [09:45] performance engineer, I guess, is [09:46] relative to what they're focusing on. So [09:50] at presidity only we do managed [09:51] WordPress hosting. So I focus on [09:53] WordPress. So I focus on web [09:54] technologies. It could be database. Uh [09:57] it could be the server itself, the web [10:00] server, whether it's engine X or Apache. [10:02] Optimizing the actual web server for the [10:04] specific site in question because [10:06] WordPress is a very it's a beast with [10:09] many faces. [10:11] You can do pretty much everything on [10:13] WordPress and people do do pretty much [10:15] everything on WordPress. meaning that [10:17] every time I get a performance audit, [10:18] which is one of my responsibilities, [10:20] it's it's usually like everything from [10:23] the beginning. Uh, writing something [10:25] like a SOP for audits would be very [10:28] vague because then you have to find [10:30] something and then rabbit hole. Sure, [10:32] they're all like lowhanging fruit. I [10:33] don't know, slow queries for example, [10:35] that you kind of knock out really quick, [10:37] but as a whole, without changing or [10:40] potentially ruining the website, [10:43] performance work is kind of hard. If you [10:45] asked me like what are the most common [10:47] things you or no the most common I can [10:50] answer but if you asked me what are the [10:52] best practices I would tell you there's [10:54] no such thing. I mean it really depends [10:56] on your website. Sure there are again [10:58] like I don't know be careful with your [11:00] images. Be careful with how things load. [11:02] Be aware of what like the critical or [11:05] the critical rendering path is. Be [11:08] careful with your CSS. But if you don't [11:12] actually get your hands dirty, [11:14] you're not going to you're not going to [11:17] be able to identify anything. [11:20] >> Yeah, I think that's I think that's a [11:21] really interesting sort of take on on [11:24] performance. I think that's really [11:26] grounded in sort of reality. I think we [11:28] both work at hosts and obviously hosts [11:30] want to say [11:31] >> that ours is the fastest, but how you [11:34] define fast depends largely on what [11:36] you're sort of like emphasizing. One of [11:39] the things that Pantheon emphasizes uh [11:41] is that everything should be in the the [11:43] caching layer in the CDN and we give [11:45] everybody a CDN from from the get-go and [11:48] that's a thing that we've done for a [11:49] really long time. And so to really [11:51] benefit from, you know, the speed that [11:54] Pantheon can give you, like yes, [11:56] obviously we have like containerization [11:58] and we use Google Cloud and whatever and [11:59] those things are like help things be [12:02] fast, but like ideally you're never [12:04] hitting the application server at all to [12:06] to make those database queries or [12:08] whatever. you're just hitting a cacheed [12:09] page in a CDN somewhere that that stays [12:12] there for, you know, an extended period [12:13] of time. Um, and then you don't need to [12:15] worry how fast the machine is because [12:17] the machine can be slow and it's only [12:19] hopefully going to be serving, you know, [12:20] a request to a single visitor who just, [12:22] you know, gets the short straw. [12:24] >> Yeah. Uh, well, offloading things to see [12:27] what's funny is that like in [12:29] performance, lots of the solutions end [12:30] up being the problem in some way, shape, [12:32] or form. uh you mentioned caching uh CDN [12:36] which basically is caching for I don't [12:38] know static assets uh that can help you [12:41] alleviate like what's going on on the [12:43] actual server itself but then other [12:45] sorts of caching maybe like full page [12:47] caching uh on the edge something like [12:48] Presidium Image Presidium Edge does uh [12:51] it's relatively new it's pretty cool [12:53] with the static and dynamic caching on [12:54] the edge only tells me that okay yeah [12:58] you can really really benefit your site [13:00] if you don't have like logged in user [13:01] traffic or Right. [13:03] >> Um you're it's not an LMS kind of deal [13:06] or it's a WooCommerce shop that's not [13:09] necessarily built. [13:10] >> Yep. Those are all the things that fall [13:12] down. Yep. [13:13] >> Yeah. Exactly. I mean with Woo Commerce [13:15] or you can always do like that uh I [13:17] always forget what it's called the [13:18] adaptive caching. Not adaptive. What's [13:20] the word for when you cache only certain [13:22] parts of the page? [13:23] >> Cash fragments. No. [13:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fragment caching. [13:26] Exactly. You can do that but you have to [13:29] be like in sync completely with the [13:32] developer. Uh you have to know that like [13:35] a certain banner or a certain part of [13:37] the page is going to be served from the [13:38] cache and you have to identify those [13:40] parts of the page. [13:42] >> Yeah, you can't change those either. But [13:44] like caching is one of the best and [13:46] worst things ever because it's like the [13:47] easiest way to hide all your performance [13:50] issues. On the other side of things, [13:52] it's the easy maybe the easiest way to [13:54] make your site significantly [13:56] significantly faster, you know, closer [13:59] to the user. [14:00] >> Yeah. [14:01] >> That's why we always do our troubleshoot [14:02] thing without caching. Like if you want [14:05] >> Yeah. Fix the root cause and then you [14:06] don't need to worry so much. You don't [14:08] need to rely so much on your caching. [14:10] >> Exactly. [14:11] >> Yeah. [14:11] >> Uh what's a good term? I've used this in [14:13] a WordPress uh meetup in Athens. Uh, [14:17] caching is a smart way to do less steps [14:21] for certain things, but I don't know. I [14:23] make pizzas and I've been doing it like [14:25] religiously lately because it's becoming [14:27] an obsession. If I do less steps in my [14:30] pizza making process, my dough isn't [14:32] going to come out right. [14:35] >> So, I don't know. It doesn't apply to [14:37] every situation. The caching. [14:39] >> Yep. Uh, what took you what what took [14:43] you into the WordPress world? Honest to [14:46] God, it was just an ad. There's no fun [14:48] or cool story here. I'm not an old [14:50] WordPress contributor. Uh I sure Okay. I [14:54] was taught to use WordPress as a go-to [14:57] in high school, but that's just because [14:59] I think it wasn't part of the like [15:02] formal curriculum. Uh back then, I [15:04] graduated high school in 2009, but I [15:06] think it was because our electronics [15:09] computer science teacher used WordPress [15:12] at some point in his life. So, Mr. [15:14] Nichols. Richard Nichols. Great guy. [15:15] Awesome guy. Loved him. [15:17] >> Shout out to Mr. Nichols. [15:18] >> Hi, Mr. Nichols. Uh, [15:21] I think I can call him Richard now, can [15:23] I? [15:24] >> I It's always weird with teachers. Yeah. [15:28] >> You get over it. Uh, [15:31] but yeah, I think it it was because it [15:33] was his go-to at the time. [15:35] >> And you were telling me earlier that [15:37] you're now involved in the Word Camp [15:38] Athens organization. Uh, tell me about [15:41] how that happened. Yeah, I'm a [15:42] co-organizer. I was asked if I wanted to [15:44] be part of it. I gave one of those like [15:46] really sure yes. I definitely want to be [15:49] part of it. And now at towards the end [15:52] there's like a lot of work. [15:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. [15:55] >> And [15:55] >> so for someone who who doesn't know [15:58] what's involved in organizing a camp um [16:01] or even like you know like a local [16:03] meetup, but we'll we'll talk about [16:04] camps. Um I I've I've done this so I [16:07] already sort of know this story, but [16:09] what is what would what does that look [16:11] like? uh for you uh especially maybe if [16:14] if this is like your first uh word camp [16:16] that you've been involved in. [16:18] >> It's the first word camp. I was a [16:20] volunteer for uh word camp Europe. Yeah. [16:24] >> Mhm. [16:25] >> Uh twice. Once in Athens and once in [16:27] Torino [16:28] >> uh that was good because it was all very [16:31] structured and I just had to pick a roll [16:32] and do my roll. [16:33] >> You just have to show up. Yeah. [16:34] >> Yeah. Pretty much. And you wear your [16:36] different colored shirt or whatever. [16:38] >> Yep. Yep. [16:38] >> Uh now we did do that. We did something [16:41] similar like that. We did spread out [16:43] roles. Uh but you have to fill in blanks [16:46] all over the place. Like you just have [16:48] to keep helping each other. And sure, [16:50] there's always going to be an imbalance. [16:51] Like we've got 12 different organizers. [16:53] All 12 are either running their own [16:55] business or working somewhere else. [16:57] >> They're all busy uh half the time. The [17:00] other half the time they're I don't know [17:02] living their lives. Let's not forget [17:03] that. And then they have word camp [17:06] organizing going on too. [17:07] >> Yeah. And I'll be straight with [17:09] everyone. In the beginning, I was one of [17:11] the most inactive out of the 12. And now [17:14] these past two weeks, I'm the guy [17:16] responding to emails, which responding [17:18] to emails like for the sponsors team [17:20] doesn't really mean like, you know, you [17:22] write a fiveminute email. You have to [17:23] look all over the place to gather the [17:25] information that you need for that [17:27] particular person. So you can be again [17:29] aware of their situation before you can [17:32] formulate a reply. And if something is [17:35] like taking long with this confirmation [17:37] process that you know is going on with [17:39] Word Camp Central now. [17:41] >> Mhm. [17:42] >> Uh it's our fault that it's taking too [17:44] long. [17:45] >> Mhm. [17:46] >> It's not we're the direct point of [17:48] contact. It's like you go to a [17:51] restaurant and you have a problem. I [17:53] worked in service for a long time and I [17:55] use uh service based analogies very [17:58] often. But you go to a restaurant and [18:00] you're not happy with something or you [18:01] find like a huge hair or multiple pieces [18:03] of hair or even something that's moving [18:05] that shouldn't be moving on your plate. [18:07] >> You're the rest the waiter's going to [18:09] take the [ __ ] [18:11] >> Right. Right. [18:12] >> And then it kind of goes up the [18:15] >> Yeah. And then you have a Karen that [18:17] asks to talk to the the manager and then [18:18] the manager pulls out the head chef. [18:20] Yep. Yep. [18:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. And it just makes everyone's [18:23] day really bad. There has to be a lot of [18:24] patience. There has to be a lot of from [18:26] what I'm saying there has to be a lot of [18:27] understanding. [18:29] things do magically seem to work, you [18:32] know, because we have to do it. Uh we're [18:36] at the point that we have to do it. I [18:37] think there's like a certain demarcation [18:39] point where if you really can't handle, [18:41] which I think I was there at that [18:42] demarcation point, I think I was the [18:45] weak link uh until I had to not be the [18:49] weak link. And now I'm quite tired. [18:53] There's still some pushing to go. Uh [18:55] there's still some there's a lot of last [18:57] minute things to go and we're actually [18:59] getting a lot of like engagement from [19:01] people mostly positive people asking for [19:06] uh well people asking to sponsor [19:08] obviously uh people asking to volunteer [19:10] volunteering seems to be a lot easier or [19:12] to find finding volunteers seems to be a [19:15] lot easier than it is to find sponsors. [19:17] >> Yes. [19:18] >> Uh Word Camp Central has been very good [19:20] about the portion that they've given us [19:22] for the event. I'm not going to lie [19:24] there. [19:25] >> Yeah. [19:26] >> Yeah. Um when uh when is Word Camp [19:28] Athens? [19:30] >> When is [19:31] >> Yeah. When? [19:32] >> November 8th. [19:33] >> November 8th. Oh, yeah. My birthday. [19:36] >> Hey, happy birthday Athens. [19:38] >> Um yeah, unfortunately I won't be going [19:40] to Athens for my birthday this year. Um [19:44] >> keyword this year. [19:45] >> I I' I'd like to go to Athens for my [19:47] birthday. Uh [19:49] um but yeah. So, no, I I I did um I was [19:53] organized I was involved in Word Camp [19:54] Salt Lake City for for a long long long [19:56] long long time. I started out as a [19:58] volunteer. Um and then I was um and then [20:03] I got more involved and then I [20:04] eventually I was doing like just uh [20:06] working with like speakers and stuff and [20:08] sponsors and then I was co-organizing [20:11] and I co-organized for two years and [20:13] then I solo organized for two years and [20:15] then I was pretty done. And that also [20:18] like that last year um that last year [20:21] that I that I organized was also [20:26] probably 2018. So like just before co so [20:30] like yeah then then um then co happened. [20:34] Well a we didn't have one in 2019 [20:36] because nobody nobody in the community [20:39] was like able or willing to pick up the [20:42] reigns after I basically carried it for [20:44] I mean at that point close to four [20:46] years. Like I mean it was it was me and [20:49] one other person were were lead [20:50] organizing and [20:51] >> uh the two years before I was just fully [20:54] organizing but or lead organizing but um [20:58] but yeah nobody else was was willing to [21:00] to to pick up the the the reigns and [21:02] then and then COVID hit and that kind of [21:05] decimated our like local meetup group. [21:08] like [21:10] >> we I we still haven't really picked up. [21:12] There was a there is a a somebody posted [21:15] in in our Utah word camp Slack um like [21:18] last week and it was like the first time [21:20] like it had gotten to the point where [21:22] you know with Slack cuts off after 90 [21:23] days or whatever. So like it was like [21:25] the first message in the general channel [21:27] after the the last cut off like it had [21:29] been that long that it that it had been [21:31] quiet. Um [21:33] >> yeah it's it's and it's sad. I I would [21:36] like to have a community, but I also [21:38] like it's a lot of work and I don't want [21:40] to do the work involved in like living [21:44] in the community on my own shoulders. [21:46] >> Has it like kind of fixed? Do you guys [21:47] do meetups? Cuz I know the Athens Oh, [21:49] this was before I was like really [21:51] involved in WordPress aside from making [21:52] a website using WordPress. Uh the Athens [21:56] community had the same issue like after [21:57] co we're probably still not back up to [22:00] speed since the before Christo's days. [22:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, we we haven't we [22:05] haven't. I mean, if there are meetups, [22:06] they're not happening through our Slack. [22:07] There used to be um there used to be [22:09] like a Salt Lake Valley meetup and there [22:11] used to be like a couple people that [22:12] would meet up in like Park City. Um and [22:15] I mean a lot of those people to be fair [22:18] uh moved out of Utah. So like that also [22:21] it's not just the co that killed [22:22] everything. It was also like I think [22:23] there's almost like a co exodus that [22:25] happened too like people like when [22:27] everybody was remote working then [22:28] everybody decided that they could like [22:29] move other places and live other places. [22:32] >> Um Oh, [22:33] >> and uh and so that that I think affected [22:36] things too. But um but yeah, mo most of [22:39] the people that were like leading the [22:41] charge for like making sure that the [22:43] meetups are happening and the the word [22:45] camps and stuff are happening kind of [22:47] kind of got burned out. [22:49] >> No, that makes sense. But what surprises [22:51] me like I pulled up uh that's why I'm [22:53] looking around. I'm on the laptop. I [22:55] pulled up the results of last year's [22:57] award camp, Larissa. I'm sure you've [22:59] never heard of Larissa, right? [23:01] >> Yeah. It's I think the third Oh man, the [23:04] ladies people are gonna get upset with [23:05] me. It's either the third or [23:09] I think it's the third third or fourth [23:11] largest city in Greece. Uh it's up near [23:14] Mount Olympus and they had uh 242 [23:18] attendees and it's got like, you know, [23:20] some other fun stuff from 12 different [23:22] cities in Greece. 50% newcomers, [23:25] uh 13 speakers, 14 volunteers, 242 for a [23:30] very local, I'd say, world camp, not [23:32] even in the first or second largest [23:34] city. [23:35] >> And uh everything went really well. I [23:38] was we were all very surprised. Well, [23:40] >> I don't know if they were because I [23:41] wasn't expecting, [23:42] >> but I was very surprised to see that [23:44] that smaller part of Greece that [23:46] geographically kind of works for [23:48] everyone because it's kind of in the [23:49] middle. [23:50] >> Mhm. [23:50] >> If you don't count [23:53] Yeah. [23:53] >> Yeah, [23:54] >> it went very well. Uh, which was very [23:57] inspirational especially for Word Camp [23:58] Athens this year. [24:00] >> Yeah, location matters a lot. Um, [24:04] >> it's it's like I and it's it's [24:07] interesting um the word camp WordPress [24:10] events versus um and and how they have [24:13] or have not um come back after COVID [24:16] versus um Drupal events. I'm learning um [24:20] because I think that for the most part [24:23] like Drupal events are still smaller [24:25] than WordPress events or than than they [24:27] used to be before COVID, but there are [24:30] they are happening and like the local [24:32] like sort of regional or citybased sort [24:34] of meetup groups are like making Drupal [24:37] camps. Um I I just came back from Bay [24:41] Area Drupal Camp Bad Camp um last month. [24:44] Um and it was a pretty nice I mean it [24:46] was a cool turnout. it felt like a a [24:48] small word camp and that was cool. Um [24:52] >> and and there's been a couple others um [24:54] that I've seen. [24:56] >> For the most part, there are very few of [24:58] those things happening uh in the [25:01] WordPress space in the States outside of [25:04] you know the the flagships. Um which I [25:06] find I find interesting and [25:08] disheartening. Um and and there's [25:12] >> possibly drama involved in that. Um, I [25:15] know at least uh in a couple cases some [25:18] folks have chosen to uh make their own [25:21] event as opposed to doing a a WordPress [25:24] community support WordPress [25:27] word camp event. Um like uh you know [25:30] instead of instead of like the [25:32] organizers of of Word Camp uh [25:34] Minneapolis St. Paul decided to make [25:36] some conf instead which I'll be speaking [25:38] on in a couple months. Um [25:41] uh which I mean I think that's great but [25:43] also like there's there's stuff there. [25:44] There's I think um Brad Williams [25:46] announced a while ago uh Wadadelphia um [25:49] to do like a small WordPress event in [25:52] Philly. Um [25:54] >> Wadadelphia yeah because Philadelphia [25:57] Wadelia I don't know it's a weird name. [25:59] Um [26:00] >> interesting. And uh I think there's [26:02] another one that was done um by the word [26:07] camp Buffalo uh organizers that's I [26:11] think it's color code or something to [26:13] that effect. Um which is actually going [26:15] to be like in different places but it [26:17] started in in in Buffalo. Um, and so [26:21] like there's these other things and [26:22] obviously press conf. Um, but that's not [26:26] really like I mean that was uh descended [26:29] from uh Pressnomics. So it's it's sort [26:31] of but like it's nice to see that there [26:32] are other things happening um outside of [26:35] just the word camp ecosystem. [26:37] >> Yeah. Plus I like things like press conf [26:40] specifically that you mentioned or Okay. [26:42] So there's the WordPress community and [26:44] there's WordPress community events where [26:45] we're supposed to be from my [26:47] understanding and maybe the point of [26:48] view of a relatively newcomer is like [26:51] you know significant from my [26:54] understanding it's supposed to be a [26:55] little bit more community- based than it [26:56] is business- based kind of like the [26:59] WordPress or uh Slack right it's [27:02] definitely community based not [27:03] >> but then you have people turning these [27:06] kind of events that are geared towards [27:08] community into more [27:12] commercial events. Whereas Prescom, [27:15] they're there to make money. You're [27:16] there to make connections. You're there [27:17] to make money and it's clear, right? So, [27:19] kind of like Post Status and the [27:21] WordPress or [27:22] >> Yeah. [27:24] >> Yeah. [27:24] >> I I really like when it's uh clear when [27:27] it's clearcut like you know you're there [27:28] to make connections, to make money, to [27:31] progress your business. Whereas with [27:33] Word Camps, I'm kind of confused. I [27:34] think it's a bit of a mix and I don't [27:36] know where the balance should be, would [27:38] be or or where people even want the [27:41] balance to be. [27:42] >> That's a really fair point. I know as a [27:44] I when I was wrangling speakers um for [27:47] Word Camp Salt Lake City, the Salt Lake [27:49] City meetups often had a very strong [27:52] small business uh sort of focus. And [27:56] part of that or a large part of that is [27:59] um Salt Lake City in particular, Utah [28:01] broadly um and even more broad than [28:04] that, I would say like the dominant [28:06] culture in the state um is very big on [28:10] sort of small business and kind of [28:11] do-it-yourself kind of things. Um so [28:14] obviously that that filters down into a [28:17] lot of people that go to the meetups, a [28:18] lot of people that are interested in the [28:20] camps are small businessoriented or [28:22] small business owners or whatever. And [28:24] so obviously as as an organizer trying [28:28] to come up with a schedule, you want to [28:30] cater to that. Um but also balance with [28:34] like also we should have some dev tracks [28:37] too. Also we should have some other [28:39] things that aren't businessy that are [28:41] like and and how to like balance that so [28:43] that you have like I mean it's almost [28:45] like an art to really get the the right [28:47] sk it's it's like it's like making the [28:50] perfect playlist. I'm I'm really big on [28:52] on making play like I used to be a DJ. I [28:56] if you've ever seen uh the movie High [28:58] Fidelity, he like you know there's this [29:00] like [29:01] >> I haven't [29:02] >> all through the movie uh John Kuzzac's [29:04] character like talks about like um how [29:07] he like like making the perfect playlist [29:09] is like a common sort of thread and like [29:12] he would sit down and like just like [29:14] spend hours listening to records and [29:16] like organizing things in the right way [29:18] um to get the perfect flow. It it has to [29:21] start this way. It has to like then you [29:23] have to come down a little bit, then you [29:24] go up a little bit, you know, like like [29:26] just like making making it into an [29:28] experience, which I think uh you know, [29:31] obviously uh that is a maybe a relic of [29:34] of of [29:36] >> records and cassettes and CDs and and [29:39] not streaming services. Um, but like the [29:42] same thing is true for like [29:45] crafting a a a schedule for for an event [29:48] like that like where you have to like [29:50] understand who your audience is. Uh, and [29:53] figure out like and also like timing [29:55] makes a difference. End of the day talks [29:58] everybody's tired, everybody's sleepy, [29:59] especially at like post lunch like you [30:02] need to like have something that's going [30:03] to bring a lot of energy otherwise [30:04] everybody's going to fall asleep. Like [30:05] you know there's all sorts of stuff like [30:07] that. [30:08] >> Yeah, there's definitely like risk too. [30:10] So like we got a bunch of newcomers for [30:12] speakers and we wanted newcomers for [30:14] speakers under the idea. But then you [30:16] have that thought in the back of your [30:17] head if that ex well-known person isn't [30:21] giving a talk are people going to I [30:24] don't know actually sit in the [30:25] auditorium. [30:26] >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. You have to like you [30:29] can you can maybe like if you if you [30:31] like sandwich them with other talks that [30:34] people do know or something like you can [30:36] like kind of find ways to cheat. Um, but [30:38] yeah, or like like yeah, it's it's it's [30:42] a really interesting like that was [30:43] actually one of the things that I [30:44] thought was really fun about like like [30:46] this the the speaker stuff is always [30:48] something I really enjoyed um working [30:50] with like both from from like because [30:53] this is also like how you're presenting [30:56] in some ways your local community, [30:58] right? And like um it's not just we're [31:02] not just here independent of of time and [31:05] place and just talking about WordPress. [31:07] We're also putting on a show for for by [31:11] and for the people of our city and our [31:14] community. Yeah. [31:15] >> And so you you want that to to you know [31:19] be look good. You want you want your [31:21] community to to be cool and people to [31:22] like walk away and be like you want [31:24] people to come from out of state even or [31:25] out of the city. [31:27] >> It's like difficult. I don't know like [31:28] one of the I don't even know if I should [31:30] be talking about this but I'm going to [31:31] do it anyway. Sorry if you don't like [31:33] it. One of the issues that we faced was [31:35] not having enough uh submissions from uh [31:39] females. [31:41] >> So at the end of the day, the speakers [31:42] list is going to be, you know, there's [31:44] not going to be the diversity that we'd [31:46] want. [31:47] >> Yeah. [31:47] >> Because but it's not necessarily our [31:49] fault. So we want to what the what we [31:51] talked about was that we want to like [31:53] take some time during the event to [31:55] encourage more female people to, you [31:58] know, submit submissions for talks. I I [32:01] found I had that same problem. Um and [32:04] the solution to that problem is asking [32:08] >> Oh, going straight to people and being [32:09] like, [32:10] >> yes, going to people and just inviting [32:12] them. Say, hey, I'm the organizer for [32:15] Word Camp, blah blah blah blah. Um do [32:17] you want to come and speak? And um often [32:20] times the answer is yes. And that's [32:24] cool. And then you can kind of curate [32:25] that that speaker list because for a [32:27] long time um our our word camp was in [32:31] 100% reliant on the submissions that we [32:34] got and yeah there's only so much that [32:36] you can sort of coersse uh the the [32:38] submissions and you know because [32:44] the dominant culture uh is largely white [32:47] males then the speakers that you end up [32:49] getting are predominantly white males. I [32:52] presented actually at a um at uh Open [32:55] West [32:57] back in like I don't know 2018 2019 or [33:00] something before COVID again um and I [33:02] was presenting on being an ally um and [33:08] the way that their speaker submission [33:10] worked and I think it's actually similar [33:11] to the way uh work camp Europe does it [33:13] now maybe maybe they they just other [33:15] things that they add to that um that I [33:17] don't know about behind the scenes but [33:19] the way that they the way that open west [33:20] did submissions is it was sort of like [33:22] you you enter it into a system and then [33:25] names and stuff are removed from all the [33:27] submissions so that it's judged purely [33:29] on the the content of the submission. Um [33:33] so you don't know who submitted it. Um [33:36] and the idea is that that's more yeah [33:38] the idea is that that's more [33:39] egalitarian, right? Because you're just [33:41] basing your acceptance or rejection [33:44] based on on the subject matter. The [33:46] problem with that that I observed was [33:49] that 80 to 90% of the speakers that were [33:53] selected for that conference were male [33:56] and most of them were white male. Um, [33:59] and here I am giving a talk on allyship [34:02] and like I'm like I I told I told the [34:05] organizer like look like I'm giving this [34:07] talk and I'm going to blast you because [34:10] like all of the keynotes were men except [34:12] for one. um like most of the talks were [34:15] by men and I was like, you know, I I [34:18] think that there are better ways of [34:19] doing this and I I see what you're [34:20] doing, but also I have a counterpoint [34:23] and I'm going to talk about that. Is [34:24] that okay? And and it was you like he [34:26] said, yes. Um [34:28] >> and uh but yeah, I mean like I think I [34:31] think if you just rely on on the [34:33] submissions and you don't do sort of [34:35] your own outreach, then you're going to [34:36] get you're going to just get it [34:38] naturally because that's kind of how the [34:40] tech industry just works. And it's [34:43] upsetting too like all the other teams [34:45] volunteer-wise, [34:47] organizing wise. Yeah. We have a great [34:49] mix and you know without greatness, [34:51] everyone knows this already but without [34:52] diversity you don't have innovation. [34:54] Without innovation you don't do [34:55] anything. I mean it's been proven over [34:57] and over and over. [34:59] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel strongly about [35:02] like you know like I don't I don't I [35:05] don't even think it's like it's not [35:07] about like it's not equal or giving some [35:09] people like special special access. It's [35:12] like, no, we need to just make the table [35:14] bigger. And if that means we need to [35:15] invite people to the table, like the [35:17] white guys are going to come to the [35:19] table. Like they they're just going to [35:21] because they're like that's that's their [35:25] their perspective. That's their their [35:27] privilege that they've lived with their [35:29] whole lives to just know that they can [35:30] go out and do things. And it's harder [35:32] when there's not an actual invitation [35:35] like no, you can you can come to the [35:36] table too and we like you are welcome at [35:39] this table. Like we don't want it to [35:40] just be uh a bunch of white dudes at a [35:43] conference, at a at an event, like [35:45] anything. Yeah, [35:46] >> I know. Uh I know. I don't want to fall [35:49] under any like stereotype stuff, but no, [35:51] I totally agree. Uh and I mean that's [35:54] how inclusivity like starts, right? [35:56] Inclusivity doesn't mean like the doors [35:58] open, you can enter because no one's [35:59] going to come in. [36:00] >> Yeah. Right. [36:00] >> It's more of a we have to go to them. [36:03] That makes sense. [36:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I I think one of my [36:07] first posts that I when I moved uh when [36:11] I went to Blue Sky um I have it as a [36:13] pinned post um one of the first things [36:15] that I I don't know if you blute or [36:18] bleet or I don't know what the what the [36:19] right word for posting on blue sky is [36:24] >> bleeding. Yeah, sure. Definitely [36:25] bleeding. Um [36:28] um one of the first things that I that I [36:30] posted was um was about like you know [36:34] things that were happening and and and [36:36] the discourse in uh the United States. [36:38] And I was I was just saying like you [36:40] know inclusivity is not about people [36:44] taking your piece of the pie. It's about [36:47] saying hey everyone there's pie here. Do [36:49] you want some? [36:51] >> Yeah. Share the pie. [36:53] >> Yeah. Exactly. [36:56] I share and actually invite people into [36:57] eating the pie with you. It's not just [36:59] about saying, you know, putting a sign [37:00] up there that says this. [37:01] >> And if you need more pie, you can make [37:03] more pie. It's not like there's people [37:05] that going to take your pie. [37:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [37:08] >> Yeah. [37:08] >> Uh I don't know. Fear. Fear is a big [37:10] topic. I think we could talk about fear [37:12] for like 10 different podcasts, but fear [37:14] really everyone back on everything at [37:16] the end of the day. [37:18] >> Yeah. [37:18] >> Fear and comfort. I guess they go hand [37:20] in hand. [37:21] >> Yeah. Well, I did save some time uh [37:23] because I I definitely want to talk [37:25] about cats. [37:26] >> Yes. Yes. So, maybe you go first. Tell [37:30] tell me about your cats. [37:31] >> Um well, I I wanted to I wanted because [37:34] I I still I still like uh so we talked [37:37] uh previously about um like you take [37:40] your cat camping. Uh and I think that's [37:42] awesome. I would like a camping cat. Um, [37:46] I also think that you're a little bit [37:47] spoiled because you can just like take [37:49] uh you can just go to a beach in Greece [37:51] on an island and and then and then kind [37:54] of be remote. Um, but but uh talk about [37:58] the story of of how you uh first took [38:02] your cat on uh on a camping trip and how [38:06] that's worked since. Um because I I [38:09] think that people who who like I see [38:12] videos every once in a while of people [38:13] who have taken their cats camping and or [38:15] taken their cats to the beach even. Um [38:18] but most people uh assume that cats and [38:22] beaches and camping are not a thing that [38:24] you do. Dogs and camping seem fine, but [38:26] cats and camping always seems weird. [38:29] >> I don't know. Okay, I'll give you the [38:31] story before that. David DeBella, one of [38:33] our most recent partners. Uh him and his [38:35] wife were totally shocked when they went [38:37] out to the Rockies and they saw more [38:40] cats than dogs. [38:43] >> Sure, they were leashed, which I don't [38:44] know how I feel about like a leashed [38:46] cat, but my cat was like a crazy cat [38:48] that I don't know, some family that [38:49] couldn't handle him. Uh they ended up [38:51] finding some vet that was going to [38:53] euthanize him for being uh too [38:55] aggressive. The cat wasn't aggressive. [38:57] And I picked up on it through the animal [38:59] welfare volunteering that I do. and I [39:02] said, "No, I'm taking this cat." So, I [39:03] basically stole the cat. [39:05] >> Yeah, I basically stole the cat. Uh, and [39:08] there were some legal implications for [39:09] the veterary in question, which that's [39:12] how it should have been. But anyway, uh, [39:14] it all came down to like necessity at [39:16] the end of the day. I couldn't find [39:17] someone to take care of my cat. [39:19] >> Uh, he had gotten much better like [39:22] behavior-wise. The first year or two [39:25] actually were very difficult. [39:28] But uh we ended up going to camping and [39:31] uh I figured it'd be okay. I don't know. [39:34] There's always risk [39:36] uh because he's not a leash cat. You [39:37] can't put a leash on him. I tried during [39:39] like the first days of or the first [39:41] weeks maybe of COVID when they said we [39:43] can go out if we're taking our pet out. [39:45] >> Uh that didn't go well for the leash or [39:47] for the cat. [39:49] >> Um but I just got to the island. I let [39:52] the cat out and I was dumb. Uh it took a [39:55] long time to get there and I felt bad [39:57] for the cat. So I was like, "Okay, [39:59] cool." As now that we took this tiny [40:00] little boat to get to Kato Kufon DC, [40:03] it's uh down Kufon DC. I thought it'd be [40:05] a good idea to take him out as soon as, [40:08] you know, I could rather than finding a [40:10] spot to, you know, make Cap and then be [40:13] like, "Here, this is home." Uh, dumbest [40:16] idea ever. The cat freaked out. He saw [40:17] the water. He There was like a whoosh of [40:20] the wave and he just ran up this uh side [40:23] of this really steep hill. And I tried [40:25] getting him down, but eventually I was [40:27] gonna either maybe get the cat down and [40:30] have like hurt myself severely [40:33] >> and I don't know, I had to abandon it. [40:35] So I kind of slept close there. I made [40:37] camp somewhere further back and I slept [40:38] close to that area. Uh and I went for it [40:42] in the morning and I I was basically [40:44] just, you know, climbing the side of [40:45] this really steep hill with a can of [40:47] tuna in my hand to get the cat down. And [40:50] fortunately, I did get the cat down and [40:52] everything went well. Uh since then the [40:55] second time was kind of difficult. We [40:57] went to Donusa which is an island that's [40:59] uh conquered by cats. There are [41:01] countless cats there. And my cat's kind [41:03] of fighter/killer. So he didn't have a [41:05] great time there. Anafi was the island [41:08] that he kind of loved and even if I he's [41:10] been three times uh to Anafi. [41:13] >> Uh when I take him out on that one [41:15] particular beach that I camp on, he's [41:17] like, "All right, cool. I know where I [41:18] am. I hate you. I don't know why you do [41:20] this to me. I don't belong here. Why are [41:22] you taking me here? Fine. Screw [41:24] yourself. But he's like, "Okay, cool. [41:27] I'm good." And since then, like this [41:29] year, we went to Aavos, which is the [41:31] most uh most southern point in Europe. [41:35] >> It's this island uh maybe two hours, two [41:38] and a half hours from Cree. [41:41] Uh everything was fine. Actually, he's [41:43] kind of getting older, too. And he's got [41:44] FIV. Uh he's got the feline leukemia and [41:48] he's got the [41:50] uh it's another autoimmune disease, the [41:53] gingivo stomatitis. Is that how you say [41:56] it? I don't know. It's another feline [41:57] one that really messes with him. Uh so [42:00] he's a lot calmer because of all that I [42:02] guess too on the drugs. [42:03] >> But uh he would just stick around the [42:05] tent and basically be a guard dog. [42:09] >> So So basically what I'm hearing is [42:11] immersion therapy like [42:13] >> Yeah. kind of kind of kind of just did [42:15] it and then and then he eventually [42:18] figured it out. [42:19] >> Yeah. Totally organic. Totally. I did [42:20] see some other cats like there was this [42:22] girl on the on the on the boat on their [42:25] way back to Athens and she had her cat [42:28] she was sleeping and she had her cat out [42:29] of the crate on her chest while she was [42:32] sleeping. And I was thinking, "Wow, like [42:35] on the boat, not even on a beach or [42:37] anything, on the boat." [42:38] >> And I did meet another person. I just [42:40] remember this too. I did meet another [42:42] person that had a cat. uh that brought [42:44] the cat with them. It wasn't a cat that [42:46] was at the island of Gaos for camping. [42:48] So, it kind of works sometimes. I guess [42:51] >> you there's something that you mentioned [42:52] in there that I that that I wanted to [42:54] pull out a little bit is like you did [42:56] some animal uh sort of rescue kind of [42:58] stuff uh or animal advocacy kind of [43:01] thing like tell me about that. [43:03] >> I haven't stopped. Uh I did distance [43:05] myself at some point. I haven't stopped [43:06] since I got my first dog and that's like [43:09] [ __ ] uh [43:12] since 2012 I think when I started [43:14] working at Codex some office down in [43:17] Athens. Uh my first dog was a rescue and [43:21] my all my cats are rescues. Uh [43:24] I don't know. Okay, so rescuing and [43:26] everything. Some weird stuff happens in [43:29] the world of animals and humans. Some [43:31] like really messed up [ __ ] though. I [43:33] mean even down to like rape and at some [43:35] point I had to distant myself like rape [43:37] like like humans raping animals [43:40] sometimes I had to distance myself at [43:41] some point because Greek law at that [43:43] point was not sufficient enough to [43:45] punish cases like that and we had a case [43:47] like that and unfortunately the case got [43:49] into the hands of the boys and girls in [43:53] the animal welfare group which because [43:56] you know the courts didn't do much at [43:57] all other than a three grand uh fine. [44:00] The law has been changed since uh not so [44:03] long ago, maybe two years ago. Now, at [44:04] least fines, they stack and there is [44:07] potential prison time. Back then it was [44:09] kind of whatever you did, oh fine, you [44:10] get a three grand fine and you're off [44:12] the hook. That didn't work for the [44:13] people of the animal society, the animal [44:15] rescue society or whatever you want. And [44:18] I it turned into violence, like [44:22] individual violence. And I had to [44:24] distance myself at that point. But [44:26] sooner or later, I would find a cat and [44:29] I would keep it. That's Duke. That's my [44:31] biggest one. There was another one, [44:32] Maisie. She's a total ditz. She's my [44:34] partner's cat. [44:36] >> Uh my partner, she found her outside of [44:38] my house, which was totally my fault cuz [44:39] I removed her from the bakery [44:42] >> that was across the street from my house [44:43] cuz they had issues with the cat twice [44:44] in the same day and put it in near my [44:47] apartment, [44:49] >> you know, before we can contact people [44:50] to see if someone can take the cat and [44:52] take care of it. Uh, I ended up not [44:55] being at home the time my partner she [44:57] returned home and she just called me and [44:59] she's like, "I found this wonderful cat [45:01] downstairs and I proud it upstairs." And [45:04] I'm thinking, "Oh, hang on. What color [45:06] is the cat?" And she says, "White and [45:08] orange." And I was like, "I know the [45:10] cat." [45:12] And you know, she would ask too, like, [45:14] "Could we keep it? Could we keep it?" [45:15] And I said, "Well, it's already in the [45:16] house. I mean, [45:18] >> we can't once it's in the house, you [45:20] can't kick it out." Yeah. [45:21] >> I know. I know. Oh, it's a law of [45:22] nature. Like the cat distribution system [45:25] itself never fails. She I don't know if [45:27] she understood the concept when I said [45:29] it's in the house. I think she thought [45:30] that maybe we can put it back outside. [45:32] And I said it's not a thing now. Now [45:34] it's our cat. Exactly. And now I've got [45:37] two other blind ones. One has one eye. [45:40] It's kind of a pirate. Her name is Lala. [45:42] And her brother Mimi has no eyes. He's [45:45] blind. And uh he's the first blind [45:46] animal I've ever had, actually. But they [45:48] do everything. He literally goes around. [45:51] Uh, so one of the bathrooms is [45:52] relatively old in the house [45:54] >> and it's got like those external pipes [45:56] for uh water plumbing going around. He [46:00] goes and climbs on those tiny little [46:02] pipes that are like nailed to the wall. [46:04] And I'm thinking, how can you do this? [46:05] You don't have eyes. [46:08] >> How did you get involved in in animal [46:10] rescue, though? [46:12] >> I got a dog. [46:14] >> You just got a dog. [46:16] >> You just rescued a dog. [46:17] >> Yeah, it just kind of happened. And I [46:19] mean, if you have like I I'm a total [46:21] softy for these things. I can't handle [46:23] it. Like, if I ever killed a human, it [46:25] would probably be over something like [46:26] animal abuse. I I'm a total softy for I [46:30] can't help myself. They're they're so [46:32] perfect. [46:34] I literally That's how I started. No fun [46:36] story or anything. No family. We didn't [46:38] have pets. I was raised with like [46:40] strictly birds. [46:44] >> Nothing better, nothing more. I didn't I [46:46] didn't have pets until I was uh early [46:49] teens. And then we um my stepmom's [46:52] sister was breeding Yorkshire terriers. [46:56] >> And so we got we got one of her Yorkie [46:59] pups. Um and then I had a dog from zero [47:04] to some from from from zero pets [47:07] basically to dog. Um and um yeah, that [47:12] was that was good. I he was cool. Uh his [47:14] name is Pirate. Um [47:17] and uh because that was the name of the [47:19] game that we played. It was sort of like [47:20] a white elephant, like everybody brings [47:22] a present and then you can steal the [47:23] present, but like we called it pirate. [47:25] Um and he was a pirate gift that nobody [47:28] else wanted to steal from me. [47:32] >> So he was named pirate. Um and uh and [47:36] then nothing until after I graduated and [47:39] uh my partner got a job at the Humane [47:41] Society of uh of Utah and she was in [47:44] receiving which is where all of the [47:46] surrendered animals go. Uh and then [47:48] there's a whole like in in a shelter [47:50] like that there's a whole like [47:51] evaluation process that kind of boils [47:54] down to do we think this animal will be [47:56] adoptable? um because [47:59] they get more animals surrendered than [48:02] the number of animals they're able to [48:04] adopt out. And um [48:06] >> and there are no kill shelters in Utah. [48:09] >> The Humane Societ so Society would like [48:12] to be one but is not. They just don't [48:14] have the capacity. Um [48:17] >> so um so they do need to like make yay [48:19] or nay calls and that was uh always kind [48:21] of awful. Um she eventually moved into [48:24] adoptions and then she moved into the [48:25] vet clinic. Um and those are much [48:27] better. Um but obviously through this [48:30] process we're like taking animals home [48:33] um learning about like how the [48:34] difference between like you know an [48:36] animal that doesn't do well in the [48:37] shelter. That doesn't necessarily mean [48:38] like your experience like [48:40] >> it doesn't necessarily mean that they [48:42] are aggressive. It just means that they [48:43] aren't doing well in the shelter. Like [48:45] this is a really stressful environment [48:47] and maybe this this animal is a little [48:48] bit more sensitive to that than [48:50] >> for humans. Humans would react the same [48:53] way. [48:53] >> Exactly. Exactly. Um, so yeah. Um, [48:57] that's always been a And so all of our [48:59] cats have been either um quasi rescued, [49:03] like rescued from the shelter. [49:05] >> Um, or uh or they came from like an [49:08] actual uh animal rescue. Uh, and we [49:11] currently have three. [49:13] >> Um, and our oldest has cancer, but she's [49:17] had cancer for like two or three years. [49:22] >> That's the thing about cats, man. They [49:24] could be they could have like five three [49:25] different uh autoimmune diseases. Duke [49:27] and he's still a fighter and a camper [49:29] literally. [49:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she's the [49:33] sweetest thing. She's my daughter's cat. [49:35] Um [49:36] >> she's she's like the most empathetic [49:38] animal like she like in in the world. Um [49:43] and [49:44] >> too cute. [49:46] >> But we can talk about cats all day. We [49:48] probably would talk about cats all day. [49:50] We don't This isn't necessarily a cat [49:51] podcast. I mean, it could be a cat [49:53] podcast. It'll be a different podcast. [49:55] >> Um, [49:57] >> but you have a podcast, too, don't you? [49:59] >> I do. Uh, I started Uncast with [50:01] Prescidian. We only have one episode [50:03] with Kareem talking about fair, but like [50:04] the context is kind of hard to find [50:06] people. So, it has to be you have to [50:08] identify a problem in and around the [50:10] WordPress ecosystem. And you have to be [50:11] relative to the solution of the problem [50:14] to be on the show. I hope it doesn't get [50:15] stuck at Kareem. Uh, good show Kareem. [50:18] And then there's an interviewy one kind [50:20] of like this one. Get another person [50:21] behind the tech. I called it three Q [50:22] interview. I probably have to change the [50:24] title because it was supposed to be [50:25] three questions and now it's about 30 to [50:28] 45 minutes long. It just kind of [50:31] evolved. [50:32] >> Mhm. That's that's how it works. That's [50:34] why I don't make rules for myself. [50:36] >> Yeah, I'm learning. [50:38] I'm learning. [50:40] >> Uh well, where can people find you on [50:42] the internet? [50:43] >> I guess I can Google Christos Palucas, [50:45] but I some would be I'm on Twitter, uh [50:49] LinkedIn kind of. I did a couple posts [50:51] recently. Not a huge fan, but uh Twitter [50:53] for sure. Slbalucas. [50:55] Uh [50:58] I don't know where else. YouTube. I [51:00] guess there's like podcast there. I have [51:03] an old version of myself that used to [51:05] write classical music. So if you find uh [51:07] >> there you go. [51:08] >> I kind of do it sometimes too, secretly. [51:10] If you find some you I don't even talk [51:11] about this, man. I don't even know why I [51:13] mentioned this. [51:14] >> That's a whole other podcast. We need to [51:16] get you back and we can talk about your [51:17] classical music. [51:19] Yeah, I abandoned that kind of but if [51:21] you do search Christo Felucas, you might [51:23] find some songs. [51:27] >> Well, thank you so much, Christos, for [51:28] for coming on uh and check out Christos' [51:31] podcast or the one episode. Uh and and [51:34] go find him at uh Word Camp Athens if [51:37] you happen to be in Greece on November [51:40] 8th. [51:40] >> Um thanks again for for coming and uh [51:43] yeah, we'll see you. [51:45] >> It was a pleasure. Hope to host you too. [51:47] Absolutely.