Episode 124 Practitioner Guides #7 Diverse Leadership

Episode 124: Practitioner Guides: #7 Diverse Leadership 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 124: Practitioner Guides: #7 Diverse Leadership](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [diversity-leadership, open-source-communities, chaos-metrics] > author: Chaos Community > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ > date created: 2024-12-19 19:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 124: Practitioner Guides: #7 Diverse Leadership >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Review all 9 CHAOS practitioner guides for comprehensive metrics understanding — 05:23 #implementation - [H2] Implement survey questions to measure community feelings about leadership representation — 25:47 #monitoring - [H3] Create clear pathways and communication for leadership opportunities — 37:15 #governance ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [CHAOS Community Practitioner Guides](https://chaoss.community/practitioner-guides/) - [Diverse Leadership Practitioner Guide](https://chaoss.community/practitioner-guides/diverse-leadership/) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: CHAOS Community discussed their "Getting Started with Building Diverse Leadership" practitioner guide focusing on three key metrics - **Why it matters**: Diverse leadership drives innovation, inclusion, and project resilience while helping underrepresented groups see pathways to participation - **Key stakeholders**: Open source project maintainers, community managers, aspiring leaders from underrepresented groups - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Data collection privacy concerns, potential tokenism, cultural sensitivity in global communities - **Bottom line**: Three complementary metrics (Board/Council Diversity, Sponsorship, Inclusive Leadership) provide actionable framework for building more representative leadership ## 📖 Main Content The CHAOS Community has developed a series of practitioner guides to help open source projects move beyond overwhelming dashboards to actionable improvements. The "Building Diverse Leadership" guide addresses a critical gap where open source contributions are globally diverse, but leadership often isn't representative. The guide centers on three complementary metrics that address different aspects of leadership diversity. Board/Council Diversity measures representation at the highest decision-making levels and community perceptions of that representation. Sponsorship focuses on experienced leaders actively advocating for and elevating new voices—distinct from mentorship in that sponsors put their reputation on the line. Inclusive Leadership examines governance structures and pathways that enable diverse contributors to step into leadership roles. Implementation requires clear communication of leadership pathways, active sponsorship programs, and regular surveying of community sentiment. The approach emphasizes that diverse leadership benefits both projects (through innovation and resilience) and individuals (through skill development and career advancement). ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to CHAOS Cast and Diverse Leadership Guide - Key idea: Podcast focuses on practical application of metrics for community health - Participants: Don Foster (Data Science Director), Peculiar (Open Source Advocate), Gail (Co-founder), Harmony (Host) #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=225) — [H2] Background on CHAOS Practitioner Guide Series - Key idea: Guides address "tsunami of data" problem by focusing on single topics with actionable improvements - Evidence: "Rather than just focusing on the metrics...the focus is how to take what you've learned and make things better" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=323) — [H2] Nine Total Practitioner Guides Available - Key idea: Comprehensive series covers contributor sustainability, responsiveness, security, organizational value - Evidence: Guides include "contributor sustainability, responsiveness, organizational participation, security, sunsetting" #### ⏱️ [07:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=450) — [H1] Personal Motivation for Writing Diverse Leadership Guide - Key idea: Peculiar inspired by seeing leadership gaps and wanting to learn/teach leadership pathways - Evidence: "I saw this gap because some communities I didn't see diverse leaders in that community" #### ⏱️ [10:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=615) — [H1] Why Diverse Leadership Matters in Open Source - Key idea: Brings different perspectives, improves innovation, builds trust and resilience - Evidence: "I'm staying in chaos because I saw a leader from my environment and felt she could understand me better" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=765) — [H2] Personal Representation Drives Participation - Key idea: Seeing leaders who are "like you" increases motivation to participate and stay - Evidence: Gail notes diverse leadership "helps other people see themselves and see they could become a leader" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=920) — [H2] Social Justice and Practical Benefits - Key idea: Addresses both equity issues and practical project benefits like innovation and resilience - Evidence: "Benefits to the project themselves, but also benefits to individual contributors" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=1110) — [H1] Three Selected Metrics for Diverse Leadership - Key idea: Board/Council Diversity, Sponsorship, and Inclusive Leadership address complementary aspects - Evidence: "They address different but complementary aspects of leadership diversity" #### ⏱️ [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=1245) — [H2] Board/Council Diversity as North Star Metric - Key idea: Most measurable metric that shows representation at highest decision-making levels - Evidence: "We can count how many people are on the board and look at specific diversity" #### ⏱️ [23:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=1395) — [H3] Surveys Complement Counting for Board Diversity - Key idea: Ask community members if they feel represented rather than just counting demographics - Evidence: "Ask people, do they feel represented by the board or council?" #### ⏱️ [25:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=1547) — [H1] Sponsorship vs Mentorship Distinction - Key idea: Sponsorship involves advocacy and reputation risk, mentorship focuses on skill development - Evidence: "Sponsorship is experienced person advocating...put their own reputation on the line" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=1710) — [H3] Personal Sponsorship Success Story - Key idea: Don's career advanced through Denise Cooper's sponsorship bringing him to panels and conferences - Evidence: "She brought me along...encouraged me to blog...I wouldn't have been as successful" #### ⏱️ [31:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=1860) — [H2] Inclusive Leadership Creates Fertile Ground - Key idea: Governance structures and pathways enable other metrics to succeed - Evidence: "Setting up the structure for all these other things to occur and happen" #### ⏱️ [33:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=2025) — [H1] Implementation Through Clear Communication - Key idea: Communities must communicate pathways and sponsorship opportunities clearly - Evidence: "Create and communicate...let people know these pathways to leadership are open for everybody" #### ⏱️ [37:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maB5b8t1cDQ?t=2235) — [H2] Monitoring and Accountability Systems - Key idea: Regular surveys and check-ins ensure diverse leaders are achieving goals - Evidence: "Run surveys every 6 months, every year...track whether people feel represented" ## 📚 References - [CHAOS Community](https://chaoss.community/) - [CHAOS Practitioner Guides](https://chaoss.community/practitioner-guides/) - [Getting Started with Building Diverse Leadership Guide](https://chaoss.community/practitioner-guides/diverse-leadership/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - CHAOS developed focused practitioner guides to help communities move from overwhelming metric dashboards to specific actionable improvements - Diverse leadership benefits projects through innovation and resilience while helping individuals see career pathways and feel represented - Three complementary metrics measure representation (Board/Council), advocacy (Sponsorship), and systems (Inclusive Leadership) aspects of diverse leadership ## 📰 Newsletter **Building Diverse Leadership in Open Source: A Practical Metrics Approach** The CHAOS Community has released a new practitioner guide addressing one of open source's persistent challenges: while contributions come from around the world, leadership often doesn't reflect that diversity. Their approach focuses on three complementary metrics that address different aspects of diverse leadership. Board/Council Diversity measures representation at decision-making levels and community perceptions. Sponsorship tracks how leaders advocate for newcomers—distinct from mentorship by involving reputation risk. Inclusive Leadership examines governance pathways that enable diverse contributors to advance. The guide emphasizes implementation through clear communication of opportunities, regular community surveys, and accountability systems. This practical framework helps projects move beyond good intentions to measurable progress in building representative leadership. **Key takeaway**: Diverse leadership drives both social justice and practical benefits like innovation and project resilience. Resources: [CHAOS Practitioner Guides](https://chaoss.community/practitioner-guides/), [Community Metrics](https://chaoss.community/metrics/), [Open Source Guides](https://opensource.guide/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create sponsorship programs pairing experienced advocates with newcomers from underrepresented groups - Education: Develop workshops on inclusive leadership practices and unconscious bias for developer relations teams - Developer experience: Audit documentation and onboarding for inclusive language and accessibility barriers - Developer marketing: Highlight diverse community leaders in campaigns and speaking opportunities - Community management: Implement regular surveys measuring community feelings about representation and inclusion #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Establish diverse leadership requirements in project charters and contribution policies - License Compliance: Ensure compliance processes don't create barriers for global contributors - Security Management: Include diverse perspectives in security advisory boards and vulnerability response teams - Software Inventory: Track leadership diversity metrics alongside technical health indicators - Developer Support: Provide sponsorship training for senior engineers and technical leads - Community Engagement: Fund diverse leadership development programs and underrepresented group conferences - Strategic Alignment: Include leadership diversity KPIs in OSPO success metrics and quarterly reviews #### Community - Maintainers: Implement term limits and rotation policies, create explicit pathways to maintainer roles - Contributors: Establish first-time contributor programs with sponsorship components and leadership tracks - Sponsors: Provide transparency reports on leadership diversity investments and their community impact - Ecosystem: Coordinate cross-project leadership development and mentorship exchanges #### WordPress - Core: Ensure diverse representation on core committer team and feature leadership roles - Core Performance: Include global perspectives in performance optimization decisions affecting different regions - Core AI: Establish diverse AI ethics board and inclusive AI feature development processes - Core Program Team: Rotate program leadership and create advancement pathways for coordinators - Mobile: Recruit mobile app leaders from different accessibility and device usage contexts - Playground: Feature diverse educators and use cases in Playground learning content - Community: Provide leadership development tracks at WordCamps and local meetups - Training: Create lesson plans on building inclusive WordPress communities and diverse teams - Marketing: Highlight diverse WordPress leaders and success stories across different demographics - Support: Ensure support team leadership represents the global WordPress user base - Design: Include diverse design perspectives and accessibility expertise in design leadership - Documentation: Recruit diverse voices for DevHub/HelpHub editorial and technical review roles - Photos: Ensure photo directory moderation team reflects global community diversity - TV: Feature diverse speakers and provide accessibility accommodations for video content - Polyglots: Rotate translation team leadership across different language communities - Accessibility: Include disabled community members in accessibility team leadership roles - Meta: Ensure .org platform decisions include diverse global and technical perspectives - CLI: Include diverse development environments and use cases in CLI roadmap decisions - Hosting: Represent different hosting contexts and technical constraints in hosting team leadership - Tide: Include diverse plugin development perspectives in code quality standard decisions - Openverse: Ensure content moderation policies reflect diverse cultural contexts and sensitivities - Themes: Recruit theme reviewers and team leads representing diverse design traditions - Plugins: Include diverse plugin development approaches and security contexts in review leadership #### The WPCC - Programs: Create fellowships specifically for developing diverse WordPress community leaders - Projects: Fund governance clinics focusing on inclusive leadership structures and election processes - Funding: Provide matched grants for community diversity initiatives and leadership development programs #### FAIR - Technical independence: Ensure diverse technical perspectives in platform governance decisions - Policies: Create transparency requirements for leadership diversity efforts and outcomes - Governance artifacts: Include diversity and inclusion requirements in platform operator agreements ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Communities with diverse leadership at board/council level will show higher retention rates among contributors from underrepresented groups - Active sponsorship programs will correlate with faster advancement of newcomers to maintainer roles compared to mentorship-only approaches - Projects with explicit leadership pathways and term limits will demonstrate more leadership turnover and demographic diversity over time - Regular surveys about representation will predict community satisfaction and contribution longevity better than demographic counting alone ### 📊 Methodology - Longitudinal study tracking contributor demographics, advancement rates, and retention across projects with/without diverse leadership programs - Survey research measuring community member perceptions of representation, opportunity, and belonging correlated with measurable diversity metrics - Comparative analysis of leadership transition patterns in projects with different governance structures and pathway clarity ### ❓ Questions - How do cultural differences in leadership styles affect the implementation of diverse leadership metrics across global open source communities? - What are the most effective ways to measure sponsorship activity without creating administrative burden or privacy concerns? - How can projects balance representation goals with merit-based advancement while addressing systemic barriers that affect merit perception? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of automated tools for measuring sponsorship patterns in project communication channels and decision-making processes - Cross-cultural validation of inclusive leadership metrics across different regional and cultural contexts in global open source projects - Longitudinal impact studies measuring project health outcomes (innovation, sustainability, community growth) in relation to leadership diversity changes ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Community managers need to move beyond demographic counting to measuring community member experiences and perceptions of representation - **Policy**: Open source foundations should consider diverse leadership requirements in project graduation criteria and funding decisions - **Security**: Diverse leadership teams may identify different threat models and security priorities reflecting varied user experiences and attack surfaces - **Education**: Developer education programs should include modules on sponsorship, inclusive leadership practices, and unconscious bias awareness - **Funding**: Grant programs should allocate resources specifically for leadership development initiatives targeting underrepresented groups in open source ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Podcast format with accompanying show notes and links - Improve: Leadership pathway diagrams, diversity metrics dashboards, visual representation of the three complementary metrics #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast with conversational format and personal stories - Improve: 5-minute audio summary highlighting key implementation steps #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of sponsorship vs mentorship, detailed explanations of each metric - Improve: Glossary of diversity and inclusion terms, analogies comparing --- ## Full Transcript [00:05] [music] [00:09] Welcome back to chaos cast [music] the [00:11] chaos community podcast where we share [00:13] use cases and experiences that measures [00:15] open source community health. [00:19] On the panel today we have Don Foster, [00:22] we have Piculia and my co-host Gail [00:24] Glink. we will be having conversation [00:28] about the diverse leadership [00:30] practitioner guides and [00:33] before we get started. Hi Don, welcome [00:37] to the podcast today. [00:39] >> Yeah, thank you Harmony. Thanks for [00:41] organizing this. I'm Don Foster. I am [00:44] the director of data science within the [00:47] chaos community. I'm also an open source [00:50] strategy consultant. I've been working [00:53] in open source for I don't know about 30 [00:56] years. I've been doing this a very long [00:58] time and various different types of [01:01] roles but I'm excited to be here today [01:04] to talk about the practitioner guide. [01:07] >> Hi everybody. I'm Pila Sume. I'm a open [01:11] source advocate project manager for [01:13] curios education project working with [01:16] super bra project [01:19] um from Nigeria and I'm so glad to be [01:22] here talking about this awesome [01:24] professional guide that I've contributed [01:26] a lot to diverse leadership. Thank you. [01:30] >> Hi, I'm G. Welcome back to Chaos Cast. [01:35] I'm super happy to be here with you and [01:37] thank you Harmony for inviting me on as [01:39] your co-host today, Don and Peculiar. [01:42] I'm so excited to talk with you about [01:44] our new practitioner guide, getting [01:47] started with building diverse [01:48] leadership. It's a topic near and dear [01:51] to my heart, and I'm looking forward to [01:54] diving into the metrics and how we can [01:57] use them to make open-source communities [01:59] better. on my background. I know I'm on [02:03] the podcast a lot, but maybe there are [02:05] new listeners. I'm a open-source [02:07] strategist and director of sales at [02:09] Peturgia and I co-founded the chaos [02:12] community. So, I've been around for a [02:14] while and these metrics that we are [02:17] talking about today. I actually helped [02:19] write those initially. So, this is [02:22] really a good topic today and I'm ready [02:24] to dive in. [02:26] Thank you so much, G, for joining me [02:28] today to host this podcast. As always, [02:31] I'm excited to host this podcast and [02:34] also be part of the host for the [02:36] practitioner guide series. My name is [02:38] Harmony Elendo. I'm a technical product [02:41] and project manager. And in open source, [02:44] I lead the chaos technical writers focus [02:46] group and at my core, I focus more on [02:49] documentation and program management. [02:51] It's a pleasure once again to be your [02:53] host for today while I co-host with Gag. [02:57] Hi Don. Can you give us a background [03:00] knowledge on the practitioner guide [03:02] series so that our new listeners will be [03:05] able to like have something to get [03:07] started with? [03:09] >> Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that [03:12] we've realized over time within the [03:14] chaos community is that people sometimes [03:18] struggle when they're presented with [03:20] what we affectionately call a tsunami of [03:23] data or a wall of metrics because we [03:27] have dashboards that have so much [03:29] information that we've found that people [03:31] tend to get overwhelmed in how to [03:33] actually use them to make their open [03:35] source projects better. So, one of the [03:39] things we decided to do when we created [03:42] the data science working group within [03:44] the chaos project, we decided to start a [03:48] chaos practitioner guide series. And the [03:50] idea behind this was to focus on a [03:53] single topic. And rather than just [03:56] focusing on the metrics, which is what [03:58] we've historically done within the chaos [04:00] project, the focus of all of these [04:02] guides is how to take what you've [04:05] learned from the metrics and make things [04:08] better. So, how do you improve your [04:10] project based on what you've learned [04:13] from certain things? And so, we actually [04:15] have nine of these guides now. I [04:17] discounted them. We have guides on [04:19] contributor sustainability, [04:21] responsiveness, organizational [04:23] participation, security, suns setting an [04:26] open source project, building diverse [04:28] leadership, which is what we're here to [04:30] talk about today. And then we also have [04:32] two that are not getting started guides. [04:35] One's about demonstrating organizational [04:37] value and one is about assessing [04:39] viability. So we have a whole range of [04:42] these practitioner guides and I think [04:44] we've done podcasts on most of them. And [04:48] so now we're here today to talk about [04:49] the building diverse leadership guide. [04:52] >> I will make sure to drop the link to all [04:55] those guides that we already [04:59] recorded into the show notes. So anyone [05:01] who wants to check them out. They're [05:02] really fantastic ways of getting started [05:06] with metrics because they're so focused [05:08] and they guide you through how to do it. [05:13] Peculiar, I'm curious to hear from you. [05:16] What inspired you to write this [05:18] particular guide on getting started with [05:21] building diverse leadership? [05:24] >> I'm inspired to write this practitional [05:27] guide. First, I was part of a team that [05:32] redesigned the chaos matrix into a new [05:35] template. After the resigning of the [05:39] curios metrics into a new template, I [05:41] got curious because I read through a lot [05:44] of metrics and I was like, "Wow, these [05:48] are so amazing if communities can apply [05:50] them in their communities and in their [05:52] project." And out of curiosity, I wanted [05:55] to learn more how do different metrics [05:58] come together like when I was going [06:01] through the practitioner guide to be a [06:03] practitioner guide. How can we take [06:06] practitioner guide like I mean matrices [06:09] to help others who are not from data [06:13] science background to [clears throat] [06:14] actually help them improve their project [06:16] health and with this in mind I started [06:20] looking into data science uh working [06:22] group uh project on GitHub. I came [06:26] across this topic and I was like wow [06:29] this is actually interesting when it [06:31] comes to leadership. How to be part of a [06:34] leadership in opensource and being that [06:37] I was then aspiring to be a leader in [06:39] open source and ensuring that my career [06:42] path in open source is what I wanted to [06:45] be. So I wanted to learn more how to be [06:48] a leader and lead opensource project. [06:51] How leadership in opensource project [06:53] work. I was inspired to also see that [06:56] there is a gap in diverse leadership [06:58] across many opensource community because [07:01] I've tried different opensource [07:03] community and I come across that I saw [07:05] this gap because some communities I [07:09] didn't see like diverse leaders in that [07:12] community. So why I know that opensource [07:15] comm open source tribe on contributions [07:19] from people in different world [07:21] leadership also I thought to myself [07:24] often doesn't reflect that diversity as [07:28] I saw in some community. So I decided [07:31] it's better and good for me to write on [07:35] something that can help people see the [07:37] need to have diverse leaders in their [07:40] opensource community and to give room [07:43] for others to come in and learn from the [07:46] existing leaders that are already there. [07:48] So this guide was created to provide [07:51] this practical steps and metrics that [07:54] communities can use to make leadership [07:57] more inclusive and sustainable [08:01] and also representative. So that's what [08:05] actually inspired me. Thank you. [08:07] >> Thank you very much Piccolia. And I know [08:09] that we've been having a lot of [08:11] conversations in the industry and also [08:14] technology as a whole on diversity and [08:17] inclusion and this has been something [08:20] that's very important not just in open [08:22] communities but also in other forms of [08:26] communities and also contributions right [08:28] so yes I agree with you diversity should [08:32] matter especially knowing that people [08:35] should be able to participate in [08:37] everything from leadership [08:39] to [08:41] the ground floor basically contributing [08:43] from ground floor upwards. So but then I [08:45] would want you to elaborate on why [08:48] diverse leadership is important [08:50] especially in the open source industry. [08:54] Yeah, in all sorts industry and [08:57] ecosystem I can say diverse leadership [09:00] matters because one it brings different [09:04] perspectives, [09:06] experiences and voices into decision [09:11] making very important. [09:14] So when leadership reflect the diversity [09:17] of contributors and users right you see [09:21] project becomes more innovative [09:24] and is also become inclusive and [09:28] resilient [09:30] also it improves usability and then [09:34] transense communities trust [09:37] and ensure under represented group feel [09:40] seen and empowered to contribute [09:44] I'm going to use chaos as example for my [09:47] explanation. [09:49] I'm staying in chaos and contributing to [09:51] chaos because I came in and saw a leader [09:55] in chaos leadership position that is [09:59] from my environment and I felt if I say [10:04] something she could kind of understand [10:06] me better. So that diversity I saw made [10:10] me to stay and also is what is giving me [10:15] the quality strength to also be a leader [10:20] in Kos community. So diversity matters [10:25] because of what it brings into the [10:28] opensource community. [10:30] Yeah, and I think what Peculiar just [10:32] said is really important because the way [10:36] I look at diverse leadership is I think [10:39] that it helps drive a more diverse and [10:44] inclusive community. [10:47] Because if people can actually see [10:49] someone in a leadership position that is [10:52] like them in some different ways, it [10:55] makes them feel more included and feel [10:57] more like participating. just like [10:59] Peculiar mentioned, seeing leaders who [11:02] were, you know, from areas in the world [11:05] where she is and who were like her in [11:06] certain ways. And so I think having [11:09] people, a wide variety of people in [11:12] leadership positions from various [11:14] backgrounds, I think really does help [11:16] other people see themselves and see that [11:19] they could eventually become a leader in [11:21] the community. And I think it makes [11:23] people more motivated to participate. [11:26] >> Yeah, I agree with you on that. That's [11:28] true. [11:29] >> In a way, we could even say it's about [11:32] social justice. [11:34] When we look at open source, the [11:37] statistics, the surveys that have been [11:39] done, a majority of open source is done [11:44] or the people involved are white men, [11:48] middle-aged [11:50] who are living in some comfort in terms [11:54] of economics [11:56] [snorts] and opensource has that [11:59] potential of bringing more in. There are [12:04] several challenges of course involved [12:06] and there's [clears throat] a reason why [12:08] we have those discrepancies of who's [12:11] engaged right now. But the potential is [12:13] there because we can work in the open [12:16] because we can be transparent. [12:19] We need to make communities as welcoming [12:21] as possible and bring people in. I like [12:26] that you've touched on both aspects of [12:29] how [12:31] focusing on diversity, equity, and [12:33] inclusion helps projects themselves be [12:37] more resilient because it has a wider [12:39] base of contributors to draw from. It's [12:43] not just dependent on just a few. It [12:46] makes it more innovative because we have [12:50] more points of view, more people looking [12:53] at it and bringing their experiences. We [12:56] can make the open-source software that [12:58] we develop more inclusive for different [13:02] users because sometimes use cases get [13:06] forgotten when people are not in the [13:10] community themselves who have this [13:13] particular use case. So if only men are [13:16] developing software then women get [13:19] sometimes forgotten and we have seen [13:21] examples of this unfortunately. [13:24] So there are these benefits to the [13:27] project themselves, but there are also [13:29] benefits to the individual contributors. [13:31] And particularly I appreciate that you [13:33] shared your own story of how engaging in [13:37] open source helped you build your [13:40] leadership skills and helps you advance [13:44] your personal development. So this is [13:47] something that is benefiting everyone [13:50] all around. [13:52] I think it's good for pointing the [13:54] option. [13:56] >> So this topic of diversity, equity, [13:58] inclusion is very broad. There are many [14:02] aspects to it. It's about the people [14:05] that are involved about how to engage [14:08] them. It's about setting up the [14:11] governance in the project. It's about [14:14] looking at our documentation. There are [14:16] so many things that we can do to make an [14:18] open-source project more welcoming and [14:22] inviting and bring people in and allow [14:25] them to work with us. I'm curious, [14:28] how did you decide for this practitioner [14:32] guide on the three metrics to focus on? [14:37] >> Okay. So we selected these three metrics [14:41] that that's the board [14:45] and council diversity because and then [14:49] sponsorship [14:51] and inclusive leadership because they [14:55] are dressed different but like [14:58] complementaryary [15:00] aspect of leadership diversity [15:03] that was the main reason why we selected [15:06] them. If you look at board council [15:09] diversity, you see that it just top [15:13] decision making body right represent [15:17] varied background you know helping [15:19] contributors see themselves in [15:21] leadership. Then when you think about [15:24] sponsorship, you see that sponsorship [15:26] focus on leaders actively advocating for [15:31] and also elevating new voices or other [15:36] voices. [15:37] This strengthen is strengthens their [15:41] retention and like reduce bias when [15:46] that's sponsorship, right? I mean [15:48] sponsorship we talk about here it's not [15:50] about like it's not about funding people [15:52] is about advocating for people [15:56] supporting them guiding them to get to a [15:59] certain role or do certain things or [16:02] achieve their goal in opensource uh [16:05] community or project. So then the other [16:08] one is inclusive leadership. [16:11] We chose that because it builds [16:14] governance structure that create a [16:17] pathway for diverse contributors to step [16:21] into leadership roles ensure [16:23] sustainability over time. So with this [16:27] we look at and we decided to choose this [16:29] because these three board council [16:33] diversity sponsorship and inclusive [16:36] leadership they address this different [16:40] aspect of leadership diversity that [16:44] complement themselves. So this was major [16:47] reason why we choose this. I think Don [16:50] [laughter] might have something to say [16:51] about that. Yeah, just to add to that, I [16:55] really like Peculiar's take on why we [16:57] chose these particular metrics, but I [17:00] also think that in the spirit of the way [17:02] that we've designed these guides because [17:05] the goal of the guides is to get people [17:08] to improve on this topic. So, in this [17:10] case, to improve the diversity of the [17:12] leadership within their project. So I [17:15] think in particular metrics like [17:18] sponsorship is really important because [17:20] we want people to think about if they're [17:23] in a leadership position how they can [17:25] help bring that next wave of leaders [17:28] into the project and how they can help [17:31] other people become successful. So I [17:34] think in the spirit of making things [17:37] better I think the sponsorship metric is [17:40] particularly important along with [17:42] inclusive leadership. So that's more [17:44] about having good governance processes [17:47] and procedures and having a way for [17:49] people to move into leadership positions [17:52] which is incredibly important because [17:54] otherwise you know the same people can [17:56] continue to lead in the project forever [17:58] and not give new people opportunities. [18:00] So I think that you know in particular [18:02] these last two sponsorship and inclusive [18:04] leadership are really about how you can [18:06] make things better within your project [18:08] and make your leadership more diverse. [18:11] One of the observations that I have [18:13] about I'll just stick to the first one, [18:15] the board council diversity [18:18] of the three metrics, the one that seems [18:22] most clear to me because we can count [18:26] how many people are on the board and we [18:28] can look at the specific diversity and [18:31] like count how many men, how many women, [18:34] how many from different regions. So the [18:38] board council diversity seems somewhat [18:41] intuitive to me. Is that also the [18:44] experience you have with this? And in a [18:48] way the reason I like this here is [18:51] because it's like a north star. If we [18:54] have at the highest level of leadership [18:57] in a project, those voices represented. [19:02] The board council diversity metric helps [19:05] us identify. Yes, we've been able to at [19:09] the highest level of our governance at [19:11] the board or council level achieve this. [19:14] >> So I do think that's absolutely true. So [19:16] looking at these three metrics, the [19:18] board and council diversity is certainly [19:20] the probably easiest to measure. But I [19:25] also think that when you're looking at [19:28] diverse leadership, there are so many [19:31] things about us that people might not [19:34] necessarily know that might not be [19:37] obvious when you're trying to count [19:39] people in different ways because, you [19:42] know, there are invisible disabilities, [19:45] there are, you know, people with [19:47] different ways of thinking. You might [19:48] not necessarily know where someone's [19:51] originally from, for example. So, one of [19:54] the things that I like in the guide is [19:57] that rather than just sort of counting [20:00] things, the guide encourages projects to [20:04] run surveys where you ask people, do [20:06] they feel represented by the board or [20:08] the council? Do they feel like the board [20:11] or the council represents the diversity [20:13] of the overall project committee? do [20:16] they feel like the board or the council [20:19] considers diverse experiences and [20:22] backgrounds when they're making [20:23] decisions? So, I think there are also in [20:26] addition to, you know, looking at people [20:28] and what you know about them, but I [20:31] think it's also really important to ask [20:33] the community how they feel about it and [20:35] whether they feel represented. [20:38] >> I completely missed that point. Of [20:40] course, when we talk about diversity, [20:43] equity, inclusion, it's a very personal [20:44] experience of people. So, I really like [20:47] how you are encouraging to get to that [20:50] experience. How do the community members [20:54] experience this in the community? That [20:57] is such an interesting take on this and [21:01] so needed, so important. [21:03] So talking about the sponsorship metric, [21:08] this one I know when we wrote the metric [21:11] and afterwards when we talk about it, [21:14] people often think about money, [21:17] sponsorship, they think money and this [21:20] is not what this metric is. It's not [21:22] about giving money to people. It's not [21:26] about giving money to project. It's not [21:28] about money at all. Sponsorship [21:31] is about helping others and it's [21:35] different from mentorship. [21:37] Mentorship is where someone the mentor [21:43] helps develop a certain skill or shows [21:47] someone around the project the tools and [21:53] mentorship projects like Google s of [21:56] code or outreachy they're time bound [21:58] there might even be paid component [22:01] during the mentorship program again this [22:04] sponsorship is different from this [22:06] sponsorship ship is an experienced [22:10] person in the community [22:12] advocating for someone new. They share [22:16] their network. They give them [22:18] opportunities. [22:20] They vouch for them. Put their own [22:23] reputation on the line. Say, "Hey, I [22:26] believe this person can do this within [22:29] the community. Let's give them a [22:31] chance." And so sponsorship is a way of [22:34] opening doors. It's bringing people in [22:38] and letting them develop into the [22:41] community. So, I just wanted to touch on [22:44] sponsorship [22:46] and really make clear what this means in [22:49] the context of an open source community. [22:52] >> I agree with you on that. um about [22:55] sponsorship. Initially when I came in [22:57] contact with that matrix I already [23:01] thought of the first part of your [23:04] explanation thinking about money but [23:06] when I went through it I saw that oh [23:08] this is not actually what it is and this [23:10] is what it is and that helped me to be [23:12] able to write on this guide because [23:15] honestly I've seen this type of [23:18] sponsorship in action. I've been part [23:20] I've experienced it and seeing someone [23:24] in the community a leader standing for [23:27] you advocating and getting people [23:29] listening to you and bringing people [23:31] your way in open source is really [23:34] amazing I've been part of it and I love [23:37] that in open source we could found [23:40] people like that leaders in the [23:42] leadership chief position who are doing [23:45] that and encourages newcomers when A lot [23:49] of it have been seen in the community [23:51] encourages people to stay because they [23:54] can look up to people they can count on [23:56] and ask question and get direction and [23:59] guide. In fact, I agree with you on what [24:01] you said on that. [24:03] >> Yeah. And just to add to that, I would [24:05] say that this has been a big part of my [24:07] success personally in open source. So [24:10] when I when I started working in open [24:12] source, most of my work was more [24:14] internal. So doing open source strategy [24:17] within companies. So in particular [24:20] within Intel and so I was working mostly [24:22] in internal facing open source [24:25] activities and we hired Denise Cooper [24:29] quite well known within open source and [24:32] she actually just kind of started [24:34] bringing me along with her. She's like [24:36] hey I'm doing this panel at Ocon. I want [24:40] you to be on it to talk about open [24:42] source with me. And so she sort of [24:44] brought me into some of the communities [24:46] that she was part of and she encouraged [24:48] me to blog. She encouraged me to get out [24:51] and speak at conferences. And I don't [24:54] think I would have been as successful as [24:56] I am now had it not been for Denise sort [24:59] of acting in this sponsor role for me. [25:03] >> Oh, that's amazing. [25:05] >> Yeah, really concrete story about how [25:09] sponsorship works. Thank you for sharing [25:12] that. [25:13] So we've covered the board council [25:15] diversity where we see the result of our [25:18] efforts. We see sponsorship what works [25:21] at the individual level bringing people [25:24] in and giving them opportunities. [25:29] And now we have the third metric [25:31] inclusive leadership. And you'd [25:33] mentioned earlier this is about setting [25:36] up the governance the procedures in the [25:39] project and having pathways to [25:43] leadership, having election cycles, [25:47] having term limits, having the [25:50] structure. I think of inclusive [25:52] leadership metric that we wrote in the [25:54] chaos project as setting up the [25:57] structure for all these other things to [26:00] occur and to happen. [26:02] And that is how I think these three [26:06] metrics really complement each other in [26:08] my mind when we started developing this [26:11] metric. This is why I think having the [26:14] different focus [26:16] and the last one being what do we need [26:19] to do and change in the project itself [26:21] so that we have the fertile ground for [26:25] people to grow into leadership to become [26:30] involved. what do we need to do there? [26:32] So, I really like this selection of [26:36] metrics. Do you have any last words on [26:39] all of these metrics or inclusive [26:40] leadership specifically? [26:43] >> I think I'm good. I think we covered [26:45] them. And like Garrick said, I really do [26:47] like this combination of metrics because [26:49] I feel like each one of them hits at a [26:51] different area and so I think all three [26:53] of them are pretty important. purpose of [26:56] leadership. It shapes the culture, the [26:59] governance and sustainability of [27:00] project. These guys add to the offering [27:05] of concrete metrics and practices that [27:09] communities can adopt to evaluate and [27:13] improve leadership diversity. So it [27:16] doesn't just highlight the problem. It [27:18] provide actionable steps to build [27:22] pathways for not just one aspect of it [27:27] but for inclusive leadership, [27:29] sponsorship and then also [27:31] accountability. [27:33] So this guide is actually like good for [27:37] communities to adopt. [27:41] Thank you for bringing that up because I [27:43] was about to talk around it. I love the [27:46] choice of the metrics especially. Thank [27:48] you so much peculiar and done. But [27:52] leadership is about the people the [27:54] contributors and the community is made [27:56] of the contributors. The projects are [27:58] built by the contributors. So it [28:00] surrounds around the people. Now I know [28:04] the guide has covered everything but I [28:06] would want us to talk about [28:07] implementation because there could be [28:10] communities or projects or even programs [28:13] that has not or that have not factored [28:16] in diverse leadership and when they [28:18] listen to podcasts like this or read [28:20] through the guides they would want to [28:23] implement them. So I would want us to [28:25] talk about how implementation can be [28:28] done and how leadership or the [28:31] leadership or the community or the [28:33] project itself will get to like monitor [28:36] through the steps that the guide has [28:38] actually provided. So I'd want us to [28:40] elaborate on that. [28:42] >> When you talk about implementation, you [28:45] can it's just simple. You start by like [28:48] creating communicating a clear pathways [28:52] for contributors to grow into leadership [28:54] roles can create like opportunity for [28:58] sponsorship and let people in your [29:00] community know yes we have leaders who [29:02] are willing to sponsor them because if [29:06] they're not aware there's no way they [29:08] can know who to talk to or how to go [29:11] about it. You let them know. So you [29:15] create and communicate and let people [29:17] know okay these are available they're [29:20] like the pathways to get into a [29:23] leadership position is actually like [29:25] open for everybody. So when people or [29:28] community members are aware of things [29:31] they exist in the community and [29:33] encouraged to take part or to take be [29:36] part of it I'm sure they will like take [29:39] part of it. So this way you can also [29:42] like find a ways to make sure that as [29:46] they get into these roles as time goes [29:49] on that you have a way to like check on [29:52] them what do they do since you're [29:55] advocating for diverse leadership. Are [29:57] they actually like advocating for that [30:00] really? and you find a way measure what [30:03] they're doing and find other suggestions [30:06] to you can give to them to help them as [30:09] you're doing so you're also like [30:12] supporting them as in what they're [30:14] doing. So it's not just like showing [30:17] people how to do it and then you lead [30:20] them to themselves but you as a leader [30:23] also who is creating pathway for people [30:25] to get into leadership and who is [30:27] ensuring that others you have a diverse [30:30] leadership in your community or your [30:31] project you also have a means to like [30:34] check on them and also make suggestion [30:37] for with them to make more progress in [30:39] what they're doing also monitor them [30:41] that's actually what I'm saying and make [30:44] adjustments [30:45] if there's a need and suggestion if [30:48] there's a need. So you ensure that this [30:51] d leadership you have in your community [30:53] actually like achieving the goal of it. [30:56] Okay. So and then implementing this will [31:00] also help your commit and project be [31:02] more diverse in their leadership [31:05] structure also and everybody coming into [31:07] your community or project can also see [31:09] it and you're not just leaving them like [31:12] I said you're also going to be checking [31:15] on what they're doing you know that's [31:17] where the caution is necessary see the [31:20] results they're producing and also check [31:23] on what they're doing you know making [31:26] improvement are monitoring their [31:27] results. Also remember open source [31:29] community is a global and encompass [31:31] different people from different [31:34] background. So we have to like you avoid [31:37] that these people are not just taking a [31:40] one size fit approach to what they're [31:42] doing but they are open to adopt [31:45] different strategies from different [31:47] people different perspective different [31:49] background no matter the they also [31:53] adopting that to support everyone in the [31:56] community so that's what I can say about [31:59] implementation implement consider it and [32:02] then you check the result also what are [32:05] they actually doing? Are they [32:06] accountable? Are they like achieving the [32:08] goal for this we set for it? And also be [32:12] cautious so that they're not like [32:14] focusing on a certain area but they are [32:18] like achieving the whole goal of having [32:21] a diverse leadership in your open source [32:24] community. And like we said earlier, uh [32:27] bringing them together, bringing diverse [32:29] leadership in will bring in a lot of [32:33] different perspective in running your [32:36] project and all that you're doing in [32:37] your community. [32:39] >> Yeah. And just to build on that a little [32:40] bit, one of the things that we've [32:42] included in this guide is some sample [32:45] survey questions because surveys are a [32:47] really good way to also help monitor the [32:50] results of your diverse leadership [32:53] because you can run them every 6 months, [32:55] every year, whatever is appropriate for [32:56] your community. and keep track of [32:59] whether people feel like they're being [33:01] represented by the leadership within the [33:03] project and feel like they're being [33:05] supported and feel like they understand [33:07] the processes to move into leadership. [33:09] And so by also using surveys in addition [33:11] to what peculiars just mentioned, you [33:13] can, you know, help track it over time [33:15] and see if things are improving and [33:17] getting better. [33:19] >> Thank you so much, Don, for that [33:22] addition, especially with the survey. I [33:24] think it's going to help a lot of [33:25] communities and also facilitate their [33:27] step much more faster. [snorts] I also [33:30] noticed that guide had factored in [33:33] certain consideration and cautious that [33:36] would aid monitoring of the results. I [33:39] don't know if you want to comment on [33:40] that before we go to our value ads. [33:44] >> I would just maybe add that. So, one of [33:46] the things that we do include the [33:48] cautions and considerations in all of [33:50] the practitioner guides, and I think in [33:53] this one, it's particularly important [33:54] because when you're talking about [33:57] diversity, you really do need to be [34:00] careful about how you collect data, how [34:04] you use the data, and things can get a [34:08] little bit tricky. So, the cautions and [34:10] considerations section does have a few [34:14] tips for how to do this in a way that [34:17] makes your community feel supported and [34:20] helps build trust [34:22] and just being a little bit careful [34:24] about how you handle this type of data [34:26] and what you do with it. [34:28] Can I just add real quick? One of the [34:30] things when it comes to building healthy [34:33] communities is also the interpersonal [34:37] relationships that community members [34:40] form. And so doing the surveys, looking [34:44] at these metrics are great ways to scale [34:48] it. As a community member, talking to [34:51] people, you also get a good feel for how [34:54] things are going. And so that I think is [34:58] also an important part to have your ear [35:03] on the ground and personal [35:05] relationships. [35:07] >> Thank you very much Gail for adding to [35:09] that. I don't know particular do you [35:11] have any comments on this as well. [35:14] >> Good. Thank you. [35:18] >> Okay. Thank you very much Piccul and G [35:22] for today's podcast. Yeah. So it's about [35:25] time for value ads and I will begin. So [35:27] so far the past few weeks and days I [35:31] have been trying my hand out on [35:34] automations right trying to like get [35:36] more involved with the artificial [35:39] intelligence as well. So I found an open [35:42] source tool called N8N that has been [35:46] helping me on that regards and I think [35:49] it's something that people should try [35:51] out especially when they want to go into [35:53] automations with AI. The good thing is [35:56] it has a lot of stuff from triggers to [36:00] third party application and even our [36:02] everyday mobile application and tools [36:05] that we use for our work and also [36:07] personal life. So I think that would add [36:09] value to like the audience for those [36:11] listening. [36:13] >> Hi, this is Gayog. My value ad that is [36:16] bring me a lot of value join meaning [36:19] right now is looking forward to the [36:23] holidays. We have a big family holiday [36:28] with Christmas celebration. My siblings [36:32] are coming across the ocean to be with [36:36] us. the house is going to be full. I [36:40] also have a former foster youth that [36:43] reached out and said, "Hey, I want to [36:45] spend Christmas with you." And so we [36:49] having a big family gathering and then [36:52] it spread out over multiple days with [36:55] different parts of the family where one [36:57] day we host with a certain part of the [37:00] family. Christmas day, it's us and our [37:03] in-laws and so immediate family and we [37:06] just have a really relaxed day opening [37:09] presents from under the tree and then [37:11] the grandparents are hosting another day [37:14] uh for another part of the family. So [37:16] it's one of my favorite seasons of the [37:19] years. I'm really looking forward to all [37:21] the gatherings and traditions. So for [37:24] example, we have a tradition of renting [37:28] a van and then going out altogether [37:30] drinking hot chocolate looking at [37:32] Christmas lights because there are some [37:34] people who are so creative in decorating [37:37] their houses with Christmas lights and [37:39] then we have pajamas where we get [37:43] matching pajamas for everyone in the [37:45] family and it just creates a really cozy [37:49] family environment and I really look [37:51] forward to it this year again. [37:53] Oh, that sounds like so much fun, [37:54] Gayorg. That sounds great. So, mine is a [37:57] little more immediate. So, within the [37:59] UK, we have just had a bumper crop of [38:02] acorns this year. So, there are so many [38:05] nuts lying on the ground. And our [38:07] squirrels, who we also feed peanuts out [38:10] of a feeder in the backyard, they've [38:11] gotten super chunky as they put on a [38:14] whole bunch of weight to get them [38:15] through the winter. And so they're [38:16] absolutely adorable because we've got [38:17] these little fat squirrels that are [38:19] playing outside of my office window in [38:22] my back garden. And so it's just been [38:23] super adorable and they've been really [38:25] cute today. [38:26] >> My very add is rest. Taking time to [38:31] rest. Um I can't wait for next month [38:33] when I can have that time to rest. So no [38:36] matter how you have work hard and do a [38:40] whole lot of things and you need that [38:43] rest. So that's my very rest. Sometimes [38:48] there a lot of work to do but rest is [38:51] very very important. So um I'm waiting [38:54] for it. I can't wait for um December one [38:57] to come and December 2nd. Please just [39:01] leave me alone because I'm going to be [39:03] resting. So ah you have work from [39:06] January to November December. Please [39:10] rest because it's very important. is [39:12] help you to build back back again, get [39:16] strengthened to move ahead. Rest is [39:19] important. That's [39:22] >> Thank you everyone. I know we all agree [39:24] with Piccolia. We should find some time [39:26] to rest. [39:28] And that's the end of today's podcast. [39:30] If you have a topic that you'd like us [39:31] to cover on the podcast, whether it's [39:33] questions you want answers to, [39:35] suggestions for guests or panels, or [39:38] even feedback for what we've done [39:39] [music] so far, we'd love to hear from [39:41] you. Please do well to email us at [39:43] podcast at chaos.com community with your [39:45] messages. [music] And as always, you can [39:47] find that email address at the show [39:49] notes. Thank you for joining us today. [39:52] We hope you enjoyed this episode. [39:54] [music] Until next time, your chaos [39:55] community.