Episode 125 A Very CHAOTIC 2025 - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 125: A Very CHAOTIC 2025 ![rw-book-cover](https://wsrv.nl/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia24.fireside.fm%2Ffile%2Ffireside-images-2024%2Fpodcasts%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ff5b24404-14da-4b82-8a25-6de95d2b991b%2Fcover.jpg%3Fv%3D2&w=512&h=512) ## Document Notes > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [chaos-community, open-source-metrics, community-health] > author: Chaos Community > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_M9GoplGuM > date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 125: A very CHAOTIC 2025 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Attend ChaosCon at FOSDEM — January 29, 2025 at Commons Hub Brussels #event - [H2] Contribute to Communications Working Group — Help with social media and outreach #volunteering - [H3] Explore CHAOS Asia chapter engagement — Check accessibility improvements and participation #community ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [CHAOS Community](https://chaoss.community/) - [ChaosCon FOSDEM 2025](https://fosdem.org/) ## 📝 Summary - CHAOS Community board members reflect on 2025 achievements and challenges in open source community health measurement - Key developments include global chapter growth, AI impact on maintainer workload, and shift from metric development to metric application - Challenges include funding shifts toward AI, regulatory compliance demands, and maintaining psychological safety amid political changes - Community reached 3,290 Slack members with strengthened regional chapters in Africa and Asia - 2026 priorities focus on metric standardization, board diversity, and improved newcomer onboarding ## 📖 Main Content The CHAOS Community podcast brings together board members to discuss the project's evolution in 2025. The discussion covers how external factors like AI adoption and regulatory changes (EU Cyber Resilience Act) are reshaping open source communities. The conversation highlights the project's maturation from developing new metrics to focusing on metric application and standardization. Regional chapters, particularly CHAOS Africa and CHAOS Asia, have shown significant growth with innovative programming. The community faces challenges including political pressures on DEI work and the need for better identity verification as AI contributions increase. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=0) — [H1] Welcome and introductions - Key idea: Year-end reflection episode with CHAOS board members - Evidence: "Last episode of the year and as we're taking a break over the end of December" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=135) — [H2] External factors affecting open source in 2025 - Key idea: AI adoption fundamentally changing open source ecosystem - Evidence: "AI, artificial intelligence is eating opensource toast. A lot of funding is going into AI and I've seen that funding is being withdrawn from open source" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=330) — [H3] Regulatory compliance driving new demands - Key idea: EU Cyber Resilience Act creating new requirements for open source projects - Evidence: "Companies are building their software bill of materials and need to manage their engagement with the open-source project so that they're not just passive consumers anymore" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=525) — [H2] Pressure for formal governance and psychological safety - Key idea: Organizations depending on open source need better transparency and safety measures - Evidence: "So many organizations are currently depending on open source for like mission critical project...there's also a lot of pressure for communities to formalize their governance" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=740) — [H3] AI cannot replace human connection for psychological safety - Key idea: Automated tools insufficient for creating welcoming communities - Evidence: "I don't think that AI can replace humans...when you're looking for psychological safety, what that means is that you feel comfortable contributing" #### ⏱️ [15:10](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=910) — [H1] Global chapter growth as major 2025 development - Key idea: Regional chapters significantly expanding CHAOS reach and engagement - Evidence: "Significant engagement from like the global engagement with chaos participation especially like regional chapters. So we have like chaos Africa, chaos Asia" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=1110) — [H2] Community scale reaching new heights - Key idea: CHAOS Slack community has grown to over 3,000 members - Evidence: "The chaos slack channel right now as I'm looking at it has 3,290 people in the general channel" #### ⏱️ [21:45](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=1305) — [H3] Design working group producing professional assets - Key idea: Visual design improvements making CHAOS more professional and accessible - Evidence: "The design working group...a lot of people in Africa are really helping us with design and chaos and some of the visual assets that we're having now. Just absolutely stunning" #### ⏱️ [24:00](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=1440) — [H2] Focus on difficult but essential measurements - Key idea: CHAOS tackling harder measurement challenges after completing easier metrics - Evidence: "We've gotten really good this year at identifying things that are difficult but essential to measure" #### ⏱️ [27:30](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=1650) — [H1] Podcast success through collaborative effort - Key idea: Podcast sustainability depends on community commitment and coordination - Evidence: "For the podcast to still be alive this long after we started it, it's really a community effort" #### ⏱️ [30:15](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=1815) — [H2] Education working group expanding beyond onboarding - Key idea: Educational resources growing into comprehensive practitioner guides - Evidence: "The idea or the goal for the working group was just to create a means to on board people right but it has grown beyond that" #### ⏱️ [33:45](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=2025) — [H3] Shared ownership creating sustainable community culture - Key idea: Community members taking initiative and protecting CHAOS values - Evidence: "I am incredibly proud of the shared ownership of community growth and the way that our entire community works to protect the culture of chaos" #### ⏱️ [37:20](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=2240) — [H1] DEI work going under the radar amid political shifts - Key idea: Diversity and inclusion efforts continuing despite reduced public support - Evidence: "With like the recent social political shift with the US, so many persons directed their attention away from topics of inclusion, belonging and the safety of like marginalized people" #### ⏱️ [41:00](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=2460) — [H2] AI increasing maintainer workload unexpectedly - Key idea: AI contributions requiring more oversight rather than reducing maintenance burden - Evidence: "The amount of time that's been required to maintain just the contributor community that grows because AI exists. it's at least a 2x increase in the maintainer commitment" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/l_M9GoplGuM?t=2730) — [H3] Identity verification becoming critical challenge - Key idea: Need for cryptographic identity solutions as AI makes multiple identities easier - Evidence: "With these AI tools, it becomes also much easier for a contributor with varying motivations...to create multiple identities and to maintain multiple identities" ## 📚 References - [CHAOS Community](https://chaoss.community/) - [FOSDEM 2025](https://fosdem.org/) - [EU Cyber Resilience Act](https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/cyber-resilience-act) - [CHAOS Badging Project](https://badging.chaoss.community/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - CHAOS Community completed a transformative year shifting from creating new metrics to applying existing ones for real-world impact - Regional chapters in Africa and Asia demonstrated remarkable growth with innovative programming and strong community engagement - External pressures from AI adoption and regulatory compliance are creating new challenges for open source sustainability and governance ## 📰 Newsletter ## CHAOS Community Reflects on Transformative 2025 The CHAOS Community closes 2025 with remarkable growth and strategic evolution. The project has matured from developing new metrics to focusing on practical application, with over 3,200 Slack members and thriving regional chapters. **Key Highlights:** - Regional chapters in Africa and Asia leading innovative programming - Over 200 events badged for diversity and inclusion practices - Educational resources expanding beyond basic onboarding - New working groups tackling AI ethics and package management **Looking Ahead:** ChaosCon returns to FOSDEM on January 29, 2025, at Commons Hub Brussels with interactive sessions and multiple rooms. The community seeks volunteers for the Communications Working Group to help with outreach and social media. **Get Involved:** - Join weekly newcomer hangouts - Contribute to the Education Working Group - Participate in regional chapter activities - Help with podcast hosting and guest coordination Resources: [CHAOS Community](https://chaoss.community/), [Badging Project](https://badging.chaoss.community/), [Education Resources](https://github.com/chaoss/education) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer education: Expand practitioner guide series with hands-on workshops and regional customization - Community documentation: Improve newcomer onboarding flow based on fresh-eyes feedback and user testing - Conference outreach: Coordinate CHAOS representation at 2026 conferences through speaker calendar and support #### OSPO - Policy development: Draft guidelines for AI contribution disclosure and identity verification in open source projects - Compliance tooling: Develop SBOM integration workflows for CHAOS metrics to support EU Cyber Resilience Act requirements - Security metrics: Create frameworks for measuring supply chain security and transitive dependency health #### Community - Regional chapters: Scale successful Africa and Asia models to Latin America and other regions with local leadership - Maintainer support: Address 2x workload increase from AI contributions through automation and triage improvements - Funding sustainability: Diversify revenue streams as AI funding displaces traditional open source support #### WordPress - Community health: Apply CHAOS metrics to WordPress.org contribution patterns and sustainability measures - Plugin ecosystem: Implement package management working group insights for plugin dependency tracking - Global participation: Leverage CHAOS regional chapter models for international WordPress community building #### The WPCC - Metrics standardization: Adopt CHAOS metrics for fellowship program evaluation and impact measurement - Community assessment: Use badging project framework for evaluating sponsored community events and programs #### FAIR - Identity verification: Implement cryptographic identity solutions for contributor authenticity in funded projects - Transparency metrics: Apply CHAOS governance metrics to funding decision processes and community impact assessment ## 🧪 Hypotheses - AI-generated contributions create exponential increases in maintainer workload without proportional value gains - Regional chapter growth models can be systematically replicated across geographic and cultural boundaries - Identity verification systems will become critical infrastructure for open source project sustainability - Standardized community health metrics will become regulatory requirements rather than voluntary assessments ### 📊 Methodology - Longitudinal analysis of maintainer time allocation before and after AI tool adoption across project types - Comparative study of regional chapter formation patterns and success factors across different cultures - Survey research on community member preferences for identity verification vs. pseudonymous contribution ### ❓ Questions - How can open source projects balance AI contribution benefits with quality control and maintainer sustainability? - What governance structures best support psychological safety during periods of political polarization? - Which identity verification approaches preserve open source values while addressing security concerns? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of automated AI contribution quality assessment tools that reduce maintainer burden - Cross-cultural study of effective community health metrics across different regional contexts - Integration of CHAOS metrics with emerging regulatory compliance frameworks ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Maintainers need new workflows and tools to manage AI-augmented contribution streams effectively - Policy: Open source foundations should develop standardized approaches to identity verification and contribution attribution - Security: Projects must balance openness with the need to verify contributor authenticity as AI capabilities advance - Education: Onboarding programs need restructuring to accommodate diverse skill levels and cultural contexts - Funding: Sustainability models must adapt to shifting priorities from pure open source to AI-focused investments ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Community growth charts, regional chapter maps implicitly referenced - Improve: Organizational charts showing working group relationships, timeline graphics of project evolution #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio with multiple speakers and conversational format - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation, speaker identification audio cues #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich discussion format with personal anecdotes and community terminology - Improve: Glossary of CHAOS-specific terms, analogies connecting concepts to familiar experiences #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Action items and next steps for community involvement clearly outlined - Improve: Step-by-step guides for joining working groups, hands-on badging process examples #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear problem-solution discussions, systematic coverage of different working groups - Improve: Flowcharts showing decision processes, quantified metrics for community growth #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Panel format encouraging dialogue, community celebration and recognition - Improve: Discussion prompts for team listening sessions, collaboration templates #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Reflection questions implicit in board member responses - Improve: Self-assessment tools for finding appropriate working groups, independent learning paths #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic community growth patterns and ecosystem thinking - Improve: Sustainability metaphors, environmental impact considerations for open source work ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Well-structured podcast format with clear speaker identification - Improve: Ensure transcript includes all speaker names, add navigation markers for major topics #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Add jump-to-speaker functionality, keyboard shortcuts for chapter navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Audio format eliminates visual contrast issues - Improve: Ensure accompanying materials meet WCAG contrast requirements #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Audio format adapts to all devices and accessibility settings - Improve: Responsive design for any visual episode guides or supplementary materials #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available covering all spoken content - Improve: Time-stamped captions, speaker identification in captions, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard podcast subscription and playback interfaces - Improve: Accessible feedback forms for episode suggestions, clear contact methods #### Standards reference - Maps to WCAG 2.2 AA requirements for media accessibility and text alternatives ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Explicit celebration of global participation from Africa, Asia, Europe, and North America - Improve: Include Latin American perspectives, acknowledge different time zone challenges #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms used throughout, welcoming tone for newcomers - Improve: Define technical jargon consistently, avoid regional idioms that may not translate #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Multiple speakers provide variety in communication styles and pacing - Improve: Content warnings for political discussions, consistent structure across episodes #### Representation - Present: Diverse panel including multiple gender identities and global perspectives - Improve: Ensure equal speaking time distribution, highlight different expertise areas #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful framing of disagreements, --- ## Full Transcript [00:10] Welcome back to Chaos Cast, the Chaos [00:11] Community podcast where we share use [00:13] cases and experiences with measuring [00:15] open source community health. [00:19] Well, hello listeners. This is the last [00:21] episode of the year and as we're taking [00:22] a break over the end of December and [00:24] starting again in January. To close out [00:26] this year, I'm pleased to welcome some [00:28] of the members of the chaos board to [00:30] share their reflections of everything [00:31] that's been happening in the project in [00:34] 2025. [00:35] On the panel today, your hosts, me, [00:38] Alice Saabby, and Harmony Elendu. We [00:41] also have guests Sha Gogggins, Anita [00:45] Ehuman, Gail Glink, and Elizabeth Baron. [00:48] So, let's start with introductions. So, [00:51] my name's Alice Sa. I'm your co-host [00:53] today. I'm a freelance technical program [00:56] manager currently supporting the FreeBSD [00:58] Foundation. I'm active in several open [00:59] source projects including producing this [01:01] podcast with Chaos and editing the OSO [01:04] book with the to-do group. I'm based in [01:06] the UK and I'm in a small village near [01:08] Bath. Harmony, do you want to introduce [01:10] yourself? [01:12] >> Hi everyone. Beside being a co-host or [01:14] co-hosting with Alice, I'm a product and [01:17] project manager. I also lead the [01:19] technical writers focus group in chaos. [01:21] I help coordinate the podcast, host the [01:24] podcast sometimes, and yes, contribute [01:26] to various open communities across the [01:29] globe. It's a pleasure to be a horse [01:31] today. I hope we're going to have fun. I [01:34] knew we would have fun, actually. [01:36] >> We definitely will because now we're [01:37] going to Sean. [01:39] >> Hi, I'm Sean, one of the co-founders of [01:41] the Chaos Community. I work with a lot [01:43] of the working groups over the years now [01:46] mostly with the open source scientific [01:47] software working group data science and [01:50] of course augur 8 not glad to be here. [01:53] Hi everyone, I am Anita Ehuan. I am a [01:56] developer advocate and technical writer [01:58] and I am also on the chaos working with [02:03] Chaos Africa chapter and also a member [02:05] of like the DI working group and yeah I [02:08] do a lot of work in open source [02:10] generally. [02:12] >> Hi everyone, welcome back to Chaos Cast. [02:15] I'm super excited to be here with you [02:17] again. I'm one of the co-founders of the [02:19] Chaos Project and [02:22] started the podcast. I'm still always [02:24] excited to be here. I'm also on the [02:26] board and I think right now I spent a [02:30] lot of time planning our next chaos con [02:34] which if you are coming to Fazdom, I [02:38] would love to see you there. We are [02:40] meeting the Thursday before Fostam that [02:43] is January 29 and we have some super [02:47] exciting new upgrades to the previous [02:50] Chaos Cons. We are changing the venue to [02:53] be in the Commons Hub Brussels which is [02:57] right by the central station. We have [02:59] multiple rooms. We have interactive [03:01] sessions. We have so much planned. I'm [03:06] super excited. I would love to see you [03:08] there. And you heard it first here on [03:10] the podcast. [03:12] >> Thanks, Gog. And it's not that long when [03:14] this goes out until [03:16] full stem. So, it's only going to be [03:17] like a month approximately, isn't it? [03:19] Well, maybe 6 weeks. Anyway, [03:22] >> let's move to our last guest, who is [03:24] Elizabeth. Elizabeth, over to you. [03:27] >> Hi everyone, it's Elizabeth. I am the [03:29] Chaos community manager. I've been with [03:33] Chaos since 2020 and I am here in [03:36] Cincinnati, Ohio. It's great to see [03:38] everybody here. I'm so excited for the [03:40] podcast. I always love doing these. [03:42] >> Yeah. I can't believe it's another year [03:44] gone by already. [03:45] >> Right. So weird. [03:48] >> You were about to say something. [03:49] >> I was going to say when you said you [03:51] heard it first here on the podcast. It [03:53] reminds me of a scene from the movie [03:54] 2012 where Woody Harrelson's on the top [03:57] of a mountain getting blown away by the [03:59] giant volcano at Yellowstone and he [04:01] goes, "Remember folks, you heard it here [04:03] first from Charlie Frost." And then he [04:08] blown away. [04:12] >> I have not seen that movie in a long [04:14] time. [04:16] >> Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. [04:20] >> All right. It's great to have everyone [04:22] here together. Now, I am going to pass [04:26] over to Harmony to kick off the [04:28] questioning. [04:30] >> Yeah, I'm so glad we're having a lot of [04:31] fun today. Let's add some hairs in the [04:34] mix. So, yeah. So one of the factors [04:37] have like there's been a lot going on [04:39] like in the open source community [04:41] especially this year in 2025 [04:43] there was a lot on AI there was a lot on [04:46] a lot of things policies and stuff like [04:49] that but then let's discuss about the [04:52] factors that we have seen that made [04:54] affect this year across bird in open [04:57] source communities [04:59] >> yeah this is gay I have seen a couple [05:02] shifts in opensource in the open source [05:05] communities and ecosystems. [05:08] One, you'd already mentioned it, AI, [05:11] artificial intelligence is eating [05:15] opensource [05:17] toast. So, a lot of funding is going [05:20] into AI and I've seen that funding is [05:25] being withdrawn from open source and so [05:28] the funding landscape is shifting. I'm [05:31] in the middle of a research project [05:34] right now. more on that. I think we'll [05:36] have an update at FOSTM for sure. So the [05:40] funding is changing, the opensource [05:42] sustainability is changing, not just [05:45] with the availability of funding but [05:48] also the demands are increasing. We are [05:51] seeing the opensource [05:55] ecosystem or specifically software [05:57] supply chains becoming regulated where [06:01] especially now in the European Union [06:03] with the cyber resilience act. There are [06:06] new demands coming down for anyone that [06:10] is selling products or services with [06:14] software in them. And because everything [06:18] is built on open source these days, [06:20] those requirements also trickle down [06:22] into open-source and companies are [06:27] building their software bill of [06:29] materials and need to manage their [06:31] engagement with the open-source project [06:33] so that they're not just passive [06:35] consumers anymore. They're now required [06:37] to upstream [06:39] changes and fixes. So there are things [06:43] that are going to change the way that we [06:47] are working in opensource and as this [06:50] since we're here on chaos cast what I [06:53] think this is super interesting for [06:55] chaos is as we are seeing changes in how [07:00] we do work in open source the metrics I [07:04] think will reflect that and we can [07:06] revisit what we are seeing what the [07:08] metrics mean the work does not stuff. [07:13] >> Anita, did you want to add to what [07:15] factors you're seeing this year? [07:17] >> Yes, and I do like that G adds a [07:20] dramatic flare to his endings. [07:24] It's really interesting. But to add to [07:27] G's point now, so many organizations are [07:30] currently depending on open source for [07:33] like mission critical project and stuff [07:36] like that. But I think I have seen that [07:40] this year there's also a lot of pressure [07:42] for communities to formalize their [07:45] governance to try to like improve on [07:48] transparency a lot and also like [07:51] reinforce the need for psychological [07:54] safety for people that are participating [07:56] within these communities. And also with [07:59] like AI coming into the picture, so many [08:02] communities are also exploring how to [08:05] leverage this AI and LLM tools in a way [08:10] that does not also affect the [08:12] community's um reputation cuz there are [08:14] so many persons that are bringing in [08:17] contributions that are not validated and [08:20] so communities are struggling to make [08:22] sure they manage this as well. So [08:25] there's a lot of like ethical and legal [08:28] things that a lot of communities are [08:30] trying to put into consideration all to [08:33] make sure that it doesn't infringe the [08:36] licensing of their project and all of [08:39] that. If I can add to that, one of the [08:42] things that I think will be super [08:45] critical as everyone is managing these [08:48] things, there will be a lot of scanning [08:50] going on of licenses that are going into [08:54] the software of what are the projects [08:57] doing, what's going on there and on a [09:01] global level, if everyone is scanning [09:05] our open source communities, if everyone [09:08] is generating the metrics that we have [09:10] in chaos. There's going to be a lot of [09:14] repetition, reinventing the wheel, a lot [09:18] of using compute powers to do things [09:22] that others have already done. So one of [09:24] the things looking forward, one of the [09:27] things I think we need to think about is [09:29] how can we provide [09:32] data, open data and reduce at the global [09:36] level the amount of calculating that [09:40] needs to be done so that these things [09:42] like Anita was talking about people can [09:45] do and not have to worry about the [09:48] things that we are good at here in [09:49] chaos. So I just wanted to build on [09:52] something that Anita had said about [09:55] psychological safety and kind of the [09:58] role that AI plays in open source in [10:00] general. And I don't think that AI can [10:05] replace humans in that way. When you're [10:08] looking for psychological safety, what [10:09] that means is that you feel comfortable [10:11] contributing. You feel valued. You feel [10:14] like you can be more of your authentic [10:16] self as you contribute to the project. [10:18] And I just don't believe that AI can [10:21] fill that hole. I think that is [10:22] something that only human beings can do. [10:25] And so I know that I have seen some open [10:28] source communities that I participate in [10:30] aside from chaos try to use AI to fill [10:34] that hole. It just isn't effective in my [10:37] opinion. There is nothing like an actual [10:39] human connection to make you feel safe. [10:42] A bot is not going to make you feel [10:43] safe. So in terms of psychological [10:45] safety, I think that that is something [10:46] that [10:48] communities are going to try to use AI [10:50] for that maybe it's not the best [10:52] solution. I think it's just humans. [10:54] You're just going to need humans. [10:56] >> That's very interesting. Yeah, I can [10:58] definitely believe that chat beauty [11:00] doesn't really make you feel safe. [11:03] >> Weird. [11:04] >> No. Or even just a welcome bot. [11:07] >> Yeah. [11:07] >> You know, just saying welcome to the [11:09] community. It's nice. I mean, we have [11:11] one at Chaos, so it's great for that. [11:13] For folks who just want basic [11:15] information, it's great. But when you [11:18] start to get a little bit deeper in that [11:20] connection, like a bot just can't fill [11:22] that hole of actual feedback on your PR [11:27] or being grateful for contribution. [11:31] >> Yeah, there's definitely a lot to be [11:32] thinking about based on what's been [11:35] happening 2025, what might still happen [11:37] in 2026. [11:38] So thinking about chaos and the journey [11:42] that chaos is on and what's happened in [11:44] the last year, I wonder where you all [11:48] have noticed that chaos has developed [11:50] the most this year. And we'll start with [11:52] Anita. [11:53] >> Okay. So I'm going to be a little bit [11:56] biased with my response here and I would [11:59] say that I have noticed significant [12:02] engagement [12:03] from like the global engagement with [12:06] chaos participation [12:09] especially like regional chapters. So we [12:12] have like chaos Africa, chaos Asia and I [12:16] think there's one for Latam as well. [12:19] That has been really interesting to see [12:22] because through these chapters more [12:23] persons are seeing or hearing about [12:26] chaos metrics and learning more about [12:29] what we're doing in chaos and I remember [12:31] I was in a board meeting for [12:35] state of open con and someone was like [12:37] they're trying to use chaos metrics but [12:38] they're struggling with it and I was [12:41] really interested to know why they're [12:42] struggling with it and how it could help [12:43] them. But like learning about all of [12:45] that just made me realize that so many [12:47] persons are getting to learn about work [12:49] that we're doing here in chaos and most [12:52] especially the momentum that is coming [12:55] from these regional communities [12:57] particularly here in Africa we've had [12:59] like chaos collaborate with like so many [13:03] smaller communities and just for like [13:05] the local empowerment and it's been [13:07] really really interesting to see and I [13:10] look forward to more of these come 2026. [13:13] takes. [13:15] >> Again, I would just like to build on [13:17] what Anita had said about the global [13:19] community growing in chaos. I just [13:21] wanted to bring to the forefront the [13:24] chaos Asia community in particular. They [13:27] have been growing quite a lot and that [13:29] has been due to I just want to give a [13:30] shout out to Divan and Rowan Mosenberger [13:33] for their extra efforts in welcoming [13:37] folks to the community trying to make [13:38] the meetings more accessible and just [13:41] really working hard to promote the Chaos [13:44] Asia community. So I am so impressed and [13:47] proud of the work that they're doing and [13:49] all of the Chaos Asia folks, not just [13:51] those two, but everybody. It's, you [13:53] know, it's always a group effort. But [13:55] yeah, I just wanted to give them a shout [13:56] out. But I'm just incredibly impressed [13:57] with the way that they're growing that [13:59] community. [14:00] I've also seen some shifting. I mean, [14:04] we've talked about this before in other [14:05] podcasts, but this shift of focusing [14:08] less on the development of new metrics [14:11] and focusing more on how metrics are [14:14] being used [14:15] continues to amaze me how the project [14:19] just has evolved so much from the [14:21] beginning and the original vision to [14:23] what it is now. The organic growth is [14:25] really incredible. I've loved watching [14:27] it. I loved being a part of it. I think [14:30] Sean mentioned the other working groups [14:33] that have been developed. We're just [14:35] continuing to grow in that way. So, I [14:37] think that that's very interesting to [14:39] see that. And that's been happening for [14:41] a couple years now, but it's even more [14:42] so. We pretty much gotten all the [14:44] lowhanging fruit with metrics that we [14:46] can. I think there's 80 something out [14:48] there. So, the metrics that we do focus [14:50] on are, as Sean mentioned, just they're [14:52] the deeper, the harder metrics to solve. [14:56] We've got ourselves in this position now [14:58] where we've taken care of the easy stuff [15:00] and now it's trying to tackle the harder [15:02] problems which is super interesting. [15:03] It's a great time to come to chaos and [15:05] be a part of that. [15:07] >> I also noticed that Anita the the things [15:11] happening in the chaos community in the [15:13] Africa chapter are just absolutely [15:18] blow me away. I'm floored. I also want [15:21] to say the chaos slack channel right now [15:24] as I'm looking at it has 3,290 [15:29] people in the general channel. It's the [15:32] scale of chaos I would not have [15:33] imagined. I want to highlight three [15:36] things. One is the design [15:40] working group. I think also a lot of [15:42] people in Africa are really helping us [15:44] with design and chaos and some of the [15:47] visual assets that we're having now. [15:50] Just absolutely stunning. I'm so so so [15:55] proud of all the work that they're doing [15:57] and how this is helping Chaos be more [16:00] present, more professional in every [16:02] aspect. The accessibility is another [16:05] highlight I have. There's a new interest [16:09] from several people on how we can have [16:12] metrics around accessibility, but also [16:14] how we as chaos can follow the [16:17] accessibility best practices. And I love [16:20] to see that in the conversation. [16:23] And then finally, the third thing that I [16:26] want to highlight are the guides that we [16:30] have had several podcast episodes on [16:34] already. So, if you're a regular [16:36] listener, you will be well aware of what [16:38] this is. And if not, go check out those [16:40] episodes. Now is a good time to get [16:43] familiar with what we are doing with [16:45] those metric guides. [16:47] >> Yeah, I think we have six or seven [16:49] episodes out now about the guides. [16:52] Definitely worth a look. Sean, I I [16:55] wondered what you've seen in terms of [16:57] where chaos has developed most this [16:59] year. I think we've gotten really good [17:02] this year at identifying things that are [17:05] difficult but essential to measure. And [17:07] I've seen this mostly in the open source [17:11] scientific and academic software groups [17:14] where there's a collection of chaos [17:17] folks and also I forget I forgot should [17:19] mention the package management groups. [17:21] We've got a couple new working groups [17:22] that have emerged here towards the [17:24] second half of the year in package [17:26] management and ethical use of AI or [17:29] called AI alignment working group. And [17:31] these two working groups are trying to [17:33] find ways and I think effectively [17:34] finding ways to put data behind the [17:38] things that projects need to measure but [17:40] have had a difficult time measuring. So [17:42] we've talked for a long time about [17:44] dependencies and transitive dependencies [17:46] and had metrics for those coming out of [17:47] our risk working group. Now I'm seeing [17:51] many other approaches and those [17:52] approaches are becoming standardized. So [17:54] Andrew Nesbbit for example has really [17:56] come up with a very clear and routine [18:00] way of getting common information out of [18:02] all of the different package managers on [18:05] the open source earth that has [18:07] tremendous value for understanding the [18:09] supply chain for understanding the [18:11] effects of AI and for really you know [18:14] measuring these very difficult things. [18:16] Another example from the academic or [18:18] really more the research software [18:20] scientific software group is trying to [18:22] measure scholarly results that emerge [18:25] from open source software. These are [18:27] difficult things to measure because [18:29] they're a trailing indicator. And by [18:31] trailing I mean the effect if you fund [18:34] and support an open source project. The [18:36] effect on scientific findings is like a [18:38] two to fouryear cycle. So, it's finding [18:41] the scientific effects of supporting [18:43] scientific open source that has a very [18:45] long return signal. And I think we're [18:49] starting to find ways to use data to [18:51] measure those things in a meaningful [18:53] way. [18:54] >> It's really great to hear about the [18:56] chaos project [18:58] rising up to meet the difficult [19:00] challenges headon. And for those [19:02] interested in the package metadata [19:03] working group, there is also a podcast [19:05] episode on that from not too long ago. [19:08] Harmony, do you want to pick up the next [19:09] question? [19:10] >> I can't stop thinking like the various [19:12] working groups and like ensuring that [19:14] we've done a lot in the community and [19:16] even beyond the community from various [19:19] global engagement to better programs and [19:22] also guides that help people to like [19:26] settle properly in the open source [19:28] industry completely. Thank you so much [19:31] to everyone and because of this vote of [19:35] thanks I want us I know like the working [19:37] groups and the project we have done thus [19:38] far has been great with tremendous [19:42] achievement across board uh on the panel [19:46] today I want to know the working group [19:48] of the project that you guys are [19:50] actually proud of so far that you can't [19:52] stop talking about so I'll start with [19:55] Sean there's a lot of working groups [19:57] like you know we talked about package [19:58] management and AI alignment I'm excited [20:00] about those things, but they're kind of [20:01] new, so they appeal to my novelty and [20:03] recency as an ADHD person. I think maybe [20:08] proudest is maybe the right word, but [20:10] surprised. We've been working for almost [20:12] 10 years now on Chaos, and getting folks [20:16] getting a steady contributor stream for [20:18] the software projects has been probably [20:20] one of our most significant challenges, [20:22] but also most one of our most critical [20:24] ones since the software takes the most [20:26] sustained effort to preserve and At [20:30] first it was like for some reason we're [20:31] seeing a lot more engagement in the [20:34] augur 8 not working group and I wasn't [20:37] sure why and I think part of it is that [20:41] we've made it easier to install and [20:43] there's more people working on it but I [20:45] think part of it is I haven't figured [20:47] out exactly the connection but there's [20:48] some connection between the availability [20:50] of AI tools and the floor for new [20:54] contributor entry being higher than it [20:57] was. So there's this trade-off and I'll [21:00] talk about it a little bit more when we [21:01] think about what's under the radar. But [21:04] there's been a significant increase in [21:05] software contributions. So like in a [21:07] release instead of two or three [21:09] contributors, we have like 12 now. And [21:13] I've got some theories about why that [21:14] is, but I haven't quite narrowed it down [21:16] yet. But I'm proud of the fact that [21:18] that's happening really in a way that it [21:20] hasn't before. [21:21] >> I agree with you. And I think my theory [21:23] would be that since it became less [21:27] complex and installing the package, we [21:29] now have more contributors in it because [21:32] I've had folks reach out and be like, [21:34] oh, we would love to get down and start [21:37] contributing to a one of the [21:38] difficulties was installing and since [21:41] that has been sorted, I think there have [21:42] been a lot of flooding from persons [21:44] trying to like contribute more. But I'll [21:46] be very honest the contributors has been [21:49] very committed and we have got to like [21:51] see like lots of improvement across [21:53] board and that's something to be proud [21:55] of. Thank you so much ago. Thank you so [21:58] much Sean for sharing. G what's yours? [22:02] >> I want to take the time to really [22:07] highlight [22:08] Alice and Harmony for all the work that [22:12] you've done on the podcast this year. [22:15] The podcast we started [22:19] when chaos was still young to bring use [22:23] cases, experiences. [22:25] We're sharing what people are doing in a [22:28] format where they can just talk with us [22:31] and [22:33] elevate the things that sometimes would [22:35] get missed. So for the podcast to still [22:40] be alive this long after we started it, [22:44] it's really a community effort. If it [22:47] had been only me doing the podcast, it [22:50] would have stopped by now. And there [22:53] were others over the years that helped, [22:55] but right now Alice and Harmony really [22:58] meeting on a weekly basis, checking [23:00] where is every episode, who do we want [23:03] to bring on the podcast, what are the [23:06] stories that haven't been told yet. [23:08] There's so much love and effort that [23:11] goes into the podcast. I'm super proud [23:13] that this is a stable part of the chaos [23:16] community. So, thank you, Alice and [23:19] Harmony. [23:20] >> Thank you so much, Gag. I saw Alice [23:23] dancing earlier. [23:25] >> Yeah, thank you. And I feel like we've [23:26] never mentioned Paul's name, but Paul [23:29] edits a podcast. And so, this is a [23:32] special moment to say, [23:33] >> "Don't cut this out, Paul. We're just [23:35] going to say thank you to you live on [23:36] air." Paul from Peach Tree Sound. If you [23:38] need a podcast editing, [23:40] >> get in touch with him. [23:42] >> Yeah. Shout out to Paul for like [23:43] ensuring that the episode is out. [23:45] Wendita, [23:50] I feel like you have a lot to say. [23:52] First off, I'd like to also appreciate [23:55] the persons working in the chaos [23:59] education working group. I think a lot [24:02] of incredible work has been done in the [24:05] working group from the education project [24:08] which ideally was just to on board [24:10] people to open source and to chaos and [24:13] today we've had like aside the courses [24:16] to get people into open source and chaos [24:18] we've had like the practitioner guide [24:21] for chaos that also came out from the [24:26] same working group and like seeing all [24:28] of the effort that Peculiar puts into it [24:32] and how devoted she has been [24:34] contributing to making sure that the [24:36] project still remains is really really [24:39] interesting and like I said the idea or [24:43] the goal for the working group was just [24:44] to create a means to on board people [24:46] right but it has grown beyond that to [24:49] having resources that so many persons [24:51] can use in years to come and this has [24:56] also been a good means to on board [24:58] people but also help more persons [24:59] especially newcomers to understand and [25:02] also apply chaos and the metrics that [25:05] are being built from the community. So I [25:08] think that's been the most exciting [25:10] project for me this year. [25:13] >> Thank you so much Anita. I agree with [25:15] you completely because I've been hosting [25:18] or co-hosting some of the practitioner [25:20] guys series and I could tell you that [25:22] they're very much informative for not [25:25] just contributors but also organizations [25:27] that want to like get into open source [25:30] and as part of the contributors for the [25:32] educational project as someone that has [25:35] recorded a session it's been great and [25:37] picular has been doing great and if you [25:40] would love to contribute to the chaos [25:42] education project we will do to share [25:44] the link directly to the repository. So [25:47] you can either pick up a course record [25:50] the session or help us to edit one of [25:53] the slides that people would record. [25:55] Yeah. So thank you so much Anita for [25:57] bringing that up. It's good that we have [25:59] various various various projects and [26:02] proud moments. [26:04] I would like to say that I am incredibly [26:07] proud of the shared ownership of [26:10] community growth and the way that our [26:13] entire community works to protect the [26:16] culture of chaos. Again, to build on [26:19] what others have said, Gayorg and Anita [26:20] both about, you know, the podcast about [26:22] the education team, I feel like people [26:24] really do take ownership of the places [26:27] where they're contributing and I [26:29] absolutely love that. That is the best [26:32] thing about open source that can be in [26:34] my opinion. That is the magic of open [26:36] source is when you have this group of [26:40] mish mash of people from all over the [26:41] world and now they're building things [26:44] together and they take ownership of it [26:46] and they care about it and they work [26:48] together to make something amazing. I [26:50] mean, if you look at our chaos cons, the [26:52] welcoming that people share across when [26:55] someone new comes in the community, [26:57] which happens every single day. We have [26:59] new people coming into our Slack every [27:01] single day. And just watching other [27:04] folks, so it's not just me, it's other [27:06] folks that are welcoming each other. [27:08] They're answering each other's [27:09] questions. They're contributing to [27:11] things like the education project, like [27:13] badging, even just down to the creation [27:16] of new working groups. This is something [27:18] that someone will come to me and say, [27:19] "Hey, we want to start a new working [27:21] group. What do we do for that? Is that [27:22] okay?" And you know, nine times out of [27:24] 10, yes, of course. If there's enough [27:26] people that want to talk about a topic [27:28] that, you know, merits the creation of a [27:30] working group, absolutely. I just [27:33] absolutely love it. I feel like my role [27:35] has kind of shifted from a community [27:37] manager, quote unquote, to more of [27:39] community support. I'm here to support [27:41] folks who want to work in the community, [27:43] who want to contribute. I'm not [27:44] necessarily manage that really, but to [27:47] support them. That's how I see my role [27:48] now. And I think if you're running an [27:51] open source project, one of the hardest [27:53] things to get over is this feeling that [27:56] you have to trust people and that you [27:58] have to empower them. You have to let [27:59] them do the thing. And even if they make [28:01] mistakes, if it's not, you know, in [28:03] alignment with your original vision, [28:04] like that's okay. And getting over that [28:07] hurdle is really hard, I think, in open [28:10] source. And I feel like we're doing that [28:12] pretty well at Chaos is trying to [28:14] empower people, trying to give them the [28:16] tools that they need to make amazing [28:18] things and to really create beautiful [28:21] software, beautiful events, beautiful [28:23] projects, whatever that looks like. So, [28:25] I'm just really proud to be a community [28:27] support person now pretty much is what [28:29] my role is. Oh, [28:31] >> that's really good to hear. No, no [28:33] benevolent dictators for life round [28:35] here, right? Not a fan. No offense to I [28:38] mean it can be done well but yeah I [28:40] prefer the empowerment. [28:42] >> No offense to all the dictators out [28:43] there. Yeah. [28:45] >> Just the benevolent ones. The other [28:46] ones. Yes. [28:47] >> Benevolent ones. Yeah. [28:48] >> Offense intended for sure. [28:51] >> All right. Well, this is probably my [28:53] favorite question that I'm about to ask [28:55] now, which is what do you think has gone [28:58] under the radar within the project this [29:01] year? And let's start with Anita on that [29:04] one. Do you have any thoughts? I think [29:07] one area that I think may have gone [29:09] under the radar is the work from the DEI [29:12] working group. So with like the recent [29:15] social political shift with the US, so [29:18] many persons directed their attention [29:20] away from topics of inclusion, belonging [29:24] and the safety of like marginalized [29:27] people in the community, right? And even [29:30] while this has been going on, so many [29:33] persons also now shied away from being [29:36] present in these meetings and it's [29:37] understandable. But then the DI working [29:40] group team has still made efforts to [29:42] show up and while some of the work is [29:46] now like behind the scene like the [29:50] badging project which now has over like [29:52] we've badged over 200 events open source [29:56] events as of date and it's really [29:59] interesting to see that even with all of [30:01] this happening events are are willing to [30:04] you know apply for like the project [30:07] badge to get their event badge. And I [30:09] think right now there's a lot of work [30:11] put towards spreading more awareness for [30:14] project badging to assess the inclusion [30:19] of open source projects as well. And the [30:22] work is still on but like when you [30:24] attend the meetings you would actually [30:26] notice that there has been a slight [30:29] shift from participation and engagement [30:32] regarding topics around inclusion and [30:34] belonging. So I think that is one area [30:37] that I think I have noticed a huge shift [30:43] in this year. [30:45] >> So so true. The conversations around [30:49] diversity, equity, inclusion that I've [30:52] had this year at conference in [30:55] communities has shifted a lot and the [30:59] work for anyone who is interested in [31:02] doing this is more important than ever. [31:06] the work might be pushed into the [31:10] fringes, into the shadows. And it is [31:14] really important for us right now who [31:17] are working on diversity, equity, [31:19] inclusion to band together and [31:23] continue to make progress. Even if it is [31:27] more in the background, once the public [31:32] sentiment changes, we'll come back [31:34] stronger. And so don't lose hope. [31:38] Continue to do what you believe in [31:41] because it matters. [31:43] >> I would echo that. And I don't even [31:45] think it's public sentiment. I think [31:47] it's more of a political echo chamber [31:51] problem. And it's I think largely [31:54] isolated in the United States. But I [31:56] don't know that I have felt in my [31:59] conversations with my European [32:00] colleagues less constrained in [32:02] discussing these topics or participating [32:05] than I do in an American setting where [32:08] all of the organizational infrastructure [32:10] is working to not talk about it and yet [32:13] the work is essential. [32:16] >> Yeah, thank you for sharing your frank [32:17] thoughts on that. And it's I know that [32:19] people that who are in marginalized [32:21] groups appreciate the allyships from [32:24] others and from within as well. Thank [32:26] you for sharing that. [32:28] >> So I would actually like to give a shout [32:30] out to Harmony and the technical writers [32:32] group. I feel like they have done such [32:35] incredible work and I love to see it. I [32:39] absolutely love to see it. I mean I'm a [32:41] writer too so I have that bias of trying [32:44] to promote technical writing in open [32:46] source is I feel like that already is [32:48] overlooked but Harmony and his group [32:51] just as an example of the work that they [32:52] do they ran this incredible workshop for [32:55] Hacktoberfest to bring new folks in who [32:58] may have an interest in technical [32:59] writing to get them started. Where do [33:02] you start? How do you go from wanting to [33:03] do this thing to actually doing this [33:05] thing? And so they ran this workshop. [33:08] They had 11 speakers. They had folks [33:10] from 12 countries, 170 people signed up. [33:14] Like I had nothing to do with this at [33:16] all. Like that was 100% Harmony and Mary [33:19] Blessing and the other folks from Chaos [33:21] Africa that were working on this [33:23] project. I'm just blown away by this [33:25] whole group. So just want to give a [33:27] shout out to Harmony and the technical [33:29] writers working group. [33:31] >> Is there anything else, Sean, that you [33:33] think's gone under the radar within the [33:35] project this year? [33:36] >> So we've talked about AI, right? It's in [33:38] the headlines. It's everywhere. But I [33:41] think the thing that has become clear to [33:44] me is how AI is getting used and the [33:47] effects that it's having. It is [33:50] beginning when I look at the data from [33:52] 150,000 open- source repos that includes [33:55] the LF and Apache and lots of scientific [33:58] projects. It's really back in April that [34:01] I could start to see in the data, the [34:03] trace data from projects around the [34:06] internet that the use of AI is being [34:09] stated and sort of put into text in a [34:11] way that we can detect it and that is a [34:15] very light trend but it is increasing [34:17] and so the first thing is we can measure [34:19] it now to some extent. The second thing [34:22] is how it's affecting projects as a [34:24] software project maintainer. It's had [34:27] kind of a weird [34:29] increase in labor effect. So the level [34:31] of work required from software [34:33] maintainers because AI exists is [34:36] significant. I think the amount of time [34:39] that's been required to maintain just [34:42] the contributor community that grows [34:44] because AI exists. it's at least a 2x [34:48] increase in the maintainer commitment [34:50] these days. And so that means that when [34:52] you get a pull request, if it doesn't [34:54] state that AI is used, we're looking at [34:56] it and assuming that we have to find out [34:59] or understand if AI is used. And I don't [35:02] think that's something that we expected [35:05] to occur. The thing I'm seeing that we [35:07] possibly expected or some of us expected [35:10] is that as the volume of contribution [35:12] goes up, our technical debt as an open- [35:14] source software project goes up as well. [35:18] So the amount of code that has to be [35:20] maintained and critiqued in order for [35:22] software to remain sustainable if you're [35:24] accepting contributions from anyone has [35:27] increased. And I think the effect of AI [35:30] on increasing maintainer labor is not [35:33] something that we expected. [35:36] So it's making more work for [35:37] maintainers, not less. [35:40] >> Yeah. Ironic somehow, isn't it? [35:43] >> Yeah. [35:44] >> G, I think you wanted to chime in on AI. [35:46] I don't know if it was around the same. [35:49] I do have additional thoughts on [35:54] the AI use that Sean has mentioned is [35:58] very interesting new development and [36:00] there's something that is underneath [36:03] that. I haven't quite wrapped my head [36:06] around it yet but I see it coming down. [36:10] It's about identities. [36:13] When we analyze open-source communities, [36:16] when we look at the metrics, we've [36:18] always assumed that it is humans doing [36:22] work in open source and that they have [36:27] certain attributes. Now, there are AI [36:30] agents, there are bots, they're doing [36:34] work for people, [36:36] but not the people themselves. And while [36:40] that is it may be declared I think it [36:43] becomes really important moving forward [36:46] that we have [36:49] a clear understanding of who are the [36:51] people. So if we can have a proof of [36:55] personhood [36:56] and who are the bots and who do they [36:59] work for, who are they instructed by the [37:02] infrastructure we have right now with [37:04] git and other tools does not allow for [37:08] this level of identification. [37:12] I know there's work underway. [37:14] Jim Zlin had announced this year that [37:18] the Linux kernel is working on an [37:22] identity solution with the first person [37:25] project. [37:27] I think it's important to watch these [37:30] cryptographic [37:33] digital identity wallets, all of those [37:36] things because they will impact how we [37:41] identify who is who in open source [37:44] projects and our metrics right now I [37:46] don't think account for that. And Sean, [37:48] I don't think we've talked about any of [37:51] this really in the chaos project yet. [37:55] Does that connect with what you're [37:57] seeing as well or am I off base here? [38:01] >> With regard to identity? [38:03] >> Yeah, [38:06] >> I haven't seen any material improvements [38:08] in the ability to discern identity. And [38:12] I suppose what I have seen more of is an [38:14] increase in the amount of bot [38:16] contribution. And GitHub and GitLab both [38:19] as platforms tag bots if you declare [38:22] them as such. and I think most projects [38:24] do and so that's how AI is showing up. I [38:27] haven't yet seen any improvements in [38:29] identity resolution though. [38:31] >> Yeah, not improvements yet but I think [38:33] they need to come. I think we need to [38:35] follow suit. [38:37] Yeah, I think maybe the latent concern [38:39] that I have is with these AI tools, it [38:43] becomes also much easier for a [38:45] contributor with varying motivations, [38:48] let's say, to create multiple identities [38:51] and to maintain multiple identities. I [38:53] think in the past where let's call them [38:55] bad actors could sometimes sort of do a [38:58] social hack like in the XZ project and [39:02] sort of work their way in that took a [39:04] lot of effort by a group of individuals. [39:06] I think with AI, it's now significantly [39:08] easier to appear as a person and to [39:11] maintain multiple identities in an open- [39:14] source universe. And that's a different [39:15] kinds of challenge. It's almost the [39:16] inversion of the hope that I have for [39:19] things like identity. [39:21] >> Okay. Yeah. Thank you for validating [39:23] that. I'll drop in a blog post in the [39:25] show notes that kind of summarizes [39:29] current thinking that I'm on. [39:32] Yes, it's definitely something that that [39:33] we could unpack for a lot longer. Where [39:36] would you like to see more engagement? [39:38] Or alternatively, [39:40] where can people go to get engaged with [39:42] interesting things that they might not [39:44] be aware of? I would like to see [39:48] folks get engaged with [39:51] really anything that speaks to them. And [39:54] I know that that's kind of a non-answer, [39:56] but we have people, you know, I [39:58] mentioned it earlier, we have people [40:00] coming every day to chaos. So the [40:02] challenge is where do we point them? And [40:04] we have some, you know, kind of generic [40:06] docs and we have the tour guides and we [40:08] have the newcomers hangout and we have [40:10] other resources for newcomers. I would [40:13] like to see folks give us more feedback [40:16] on how we can make that process better. [40:19] So I think that's one place for sure is [40:22] engagement as a newcomer helping us [40:24] improve that process. And then secondly [40:26] helping them find the things that speak [40:28] to them and that's tricky because there [40:30] are so many moving parts to chaos and [40:34] we're always adding and changing those [40:35] parts too. So that's also tricky. I'm [40:39] thinking about the education project is [40:40] such a great way for newcomers to join [40:43] but also it's a good way for folks to [40:46] know what is even out there. So, I would [40:49] like to just see people engage with that [40:52] project even more and whether that's as [40:54] a viewer, as a learner, or as a [40:57] contributor. I just really love that [40:59] project. I'm a huge, huge fan of it. As [41:02] we mentioned, it was meant to take the [41:04] place of onboarding, but it's really [41:06] grown into something much larger. So, I [41:08] think that is where we can really make a [41:11] difference in helping people find their [41:13] space and find their place here at [41:15] Chaos. [41:16] >> That's pretty interesting. I like [41:18] >> fresh eyes or new person eyes are always [41:20] useful when designing like the education [41:23] and on boarding as well. They really [41:25] are. And especially, you know, at Chaos, [41:27] we are so very different than we are not [41:30] just software. And I feel like that is a [41:33] great thing for us, you know, but it's [41:35] also challenging, right? Cuz we want to [41:37] find a place for everybody, anybody who [41:39] wants to be an open source, whether [41:40] you're a designer or a social media [41:42] person or or a software developer. And [41:45] so it's so much more than just go look [41:48] at our open issues now. Go look at the [41:50] ones that are tagged good for first time [41:52] contributors. But it's so much more than [41:54] that. And I think that that is it is a [41:57] challenge, but also I love to see it. I [41:59] love to see the education project kind [42:01] of try to fill that hole of where do we [42:03] send these people? [42:05] >> Actually very curious since we're [42:07] speaking to like the members of the [42:09] board. We want to know what have been [42:11] like the top of your mind. Tell us you [42:14] guys have been having meetings and all [42:15] of that. So what's the priority for the [42:18] board this year and maybe next year? [42:22] Sean Gag, [42:24] >> one of the things that we have talked [42:27] about at the board level, at the chaos [42:29] board level is how we can [42:33] improve the diversity of the board and [42:38] maybe introduce [42:40] there's conversation going on. I don't [42:43] want to [42:45] quite yet talk about the solution [42:47] because we are still working on that. [42:49] But it's something I'm looking forward [42:52] to. [42:54] >> Okay. Seems we have to stay curious and [42:56] wait till like it's matures, right? But [42:59] let's hear from later. [43:02] >> Yes, we'll update you. We'll have an [43:05] episode on it maybe. Who knows [43:07] >> when things shake out really kind of the [43:10] other side of that coin for looking at [43:12] inclusivity of the board which has been [43:14] a topic of discussion as Kark mentioned. [43:16] I think sustainability of the chaos [43:19] project is also always foremost in our [43:21] minds. You know, what are the things [43:23] that are happening in the community that [43:25] we need to feed? Are there parts of the [43:28] community that are starved or need more [43:31] attention? And finding that way to [43:34] sustain engagement is always important [43:37] especially for the parts of the project [43:39] that we have so many people who kind of [43:42] know how it runs and we want to make [43:43] sure that those thoughts and ideas are [43:45] preserved and become a little bit more [43:48] personroof as it were. So you know [43:50] sustainability is always sort of I think [43:53] an umbrella that we sit under as a [43:56] primary objective from year to year. [43:58] agree it's a very good umbrella that we [44:00] we could implement. Anita, do you have [44:03] some thoughts on this? So I think in [44:06] addition to sustainability and the [44:10] succession plans and inclusion plans [44:12] that chaos has a long-term [44:16] goal that the board has also been [44:19] looking into is to see chaos metrics [44:22] become recognized [44:24] internationally like as a standard and [44:27] not just metrics that exist within the [44:29] community. And so this is crucial [44:32] because not only will it help with [44:34] consistency across the chaos metrics but [44:37] also like open-source projects across [44:40] the world, right? And so I look forward [44:45] to us doing more of that next year and [44:48] collaborating with like more foundations [44:51] and standard bodies in order to do this. [44:53] But I guess you have to wait until next [44:56] year to see that happen. [44:58] >> Yeah. and we actually can't wait. But I [45:02] think right that DCA have laid the [45:04] foundation for the success of the [45:06] metrics for next year. We've had like [45:09] good engagement and the badge project [45:11] has been doing pretty well in for DEI [45:15] especially for projects and conferences. [45:18] But yeah, we can't wait for the fruition [45:21] of it in 2026. Well, that's nearly all [45:25] we have time for, but just before we [45:27] wrap up, I would love to hear very short [45:31] responses to what are your wishes for [45:35] chaos in 2026. I'm going to start off [45:38] with mine so you get a flavor for the [45:41] kind of thing. You can really say [45:43] whatever you want, but mine is that I [45:44] would love us to onboard a podcast host [45:46] for the Asia chapter. And that's [45:48] something that we're working on right [45:50] now. So love to hear more voices from [45:52] our Asia chapter represented in the [45:54] podcast hosting and also guests. [45:57] Harmony, what's yours? [45:59] >> I think I I love like my chaos con much [46:03] more experiences on Chaos Con. [46:07] >> Sean, [46:09] >> I wish for the community [46:11] for 2026 is that we keep on trucking, [46:16] keep going, keep doing what we do. [46:18] Anita, what's your wish for 2026 for [46:20] chaos? [46:21] >> My wish for chaos 2026 would be for our [46:25] metric definition to be stable, easily [46:30] repeatable, and also easily integrated [46:33] into communities and projects and like I [46:38] hear people talking about it now, but I [46:40] want to see them implementing with more [46:42] next year. [46:44] >> That's a good one. G, what's yours? My [46:48] wish for chaos in 2026 [46:52] is that we continue to come together as [46:56] a community. [46:57] The chaos cons that we are organizing [47:01] around the world are excellent places to [47:05] come together and the personal [47:08] connections that we have with each other [47:11] as chaotics [47:13] are what keeps the community going and [47:16] keeps the project going. [47:19] My wish my hope is that we have good [47:22] chaos cons next year. Elizabeth, what's [47:25] your wish for Tales for 2026? [47:28] >> I would like to see in addition to [47:30] continued financial support where we can [47:32] get it. Of course, I will always ask for [47:34] financial support. I will always wish [47:36] for that just so we can do more things. [47:38] But I would like to see, and Alice, this [47:41] speaks to your heart, I know, as well. I [47:43] would really like to see the [47:44] communications working group get figured [47:46] out because we have gone back and forth [47:49] with this group up and down. you know, [47:51] we've been active and then inactive and [47:52] then active again and now inactive. And [47:54] for whatever reason, it's just really [47:56] hard because all the folks on this team [47:58] are so incredibly busy. And so, it's [48:01] like really hard to find time and space [48:05] and energy for this group, but I think [48:08] that it's it's really important to the [48:11] project. I kind of fill in the holes [48:13] where I can. And we've got some folks [48:15] helping out with social media in [48:16] particular for Chaos Con, but I would [48:18] really like to see that just gel [48:21] finally. I don't know how to make that [48:22] happen. I really don't. But it is so [48:25] important, I think, to kind of make sure [48:27] the world still knows that chaos is here [48:29] and what is happening because there's so [48:31] much happening. and just having that [48:34] team to help with the outreach of chaos. [48:37] And even internally, you know, I do my [48:39] best, but I'm sure that it could be [48:41] better. 100% could be better. So, that [48:43] would be my wish for 2026 is that this [48:45] team would magically just figure out how [48:47] to stay active and how to have find the [48:50] energy to keep maintained. I don't know [48:52] what that looks like, but [48:54] >> yeah. [48:55] >> Yeah. And just for anyone who's not [48:57] completely sure what it is we're talking [48:58] about. So chaos [49:02] community has had an on again offagain [49:05] group sort of doing marketing function. [49:08] So trying to get a view of what the [49:12] community is doing to promote you know [49:16] so for example when the podcast comes [49:18] out to make sure that the episodes [49:19] always promoted on social media and to [49:23] share information about events to share [49:25] information about what's going on in the [49:28] different chapters and basically to [49:30] communicate mainly externally but also [49:32] like you said a little bit internally [49:34] and we do have people with the skills [49:36] but it's just been very difficult [49:38] to get enough momentum to overcome that [49:42] activation energy of getting the group [49:44] going and and having a consistent [49:46] momentum. So, if there's anyone out [49:49] there who thinks, "Oh my goodness, I [49:51] love doing that. That would be perfect. [49:53] I've got the skills or I've got energy [49:55] and I'd like to learn the skills and I'm [49:57] prepared to be like the point person to [49:59] kind of rally people around and [50:00] organize, then please get in touch." [50:04] >> Yes, please, please, please. I mean like [50:06] we we have a calendar even that has [50:08] people giving talks about chaos at [50:10] upcoming conferences and we try to keep [50:12] a calendar. It's up to people to add [50:14] their own events but you know having [50:17] just somebody to help us promote those [50:19] even hey if you're at this conference go [50:21] hear this talk by this wonderful person. [50:24] Things like that would be so amazing if [50:26] we just had a little more more hands- on [50:28] deck would be great. [50:29] >> Awesome. Yeah. Well hopefully the wish [50:31] will come true. [50:35] Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, [50:37] Elizabeth, for that one. [50:39] And that's the end of this year's [50:41] podcast. I think I'm privileged to say [50:44] that. Yeah, that's the end of this [50:45] year's podcast. If you have a topic that [50:48] you like us to cover on the podcast next [50:50] year or sometime further, whether you [50:54] want questions that we want us to [50:56] answer, suggestions for guests, our [50:58] panels, or maybe feedback of what we've [51:01] done so far this year and the year [51:03] previous, we'd love to hear from you. Do [51:05] well to email us as podcast at chaos.com [51:08] community with your messages and [51:10] definitely you'll find the email address [51:11] at the show notes. Thank you for joining [51:14] us today and thank you for joining us [51:16] this year so far. We hope you love this [51:19] episode. Until next time, your chaos [51:21] community and happy Christmas and happy [51:25] new year.  ## Highlights - **AI Funding Reshapes Open Source Sustainability** - Georg Link observed that AI funding is shifting money away from general open source, changing sustainability dynamics. - He warned metrics will need revisiting because changing workflows will alter what those metrics mean. Transcript: Georg Link One, you'd already mentioned it, AI, artificial intelligence is eating open source toast. So a lot of funding is going into AI and I've seen that funding is being withdrawn from open source. And so the funding landscape is shifting. I'm in the middle of a research project right now. More on that. I think we'll have an update at FOSDEM for sure. So the funding is changing. The open source sustainability is changing, not just with the availability of funding, but also the demands are increasing. We're seeing the open source ecosystem or specifically software supply chains becoming regulated, where especially now in the European Union with the Cyber Resilience Act, there Are new demands coming down for anyone that is selling products or services with software in them. And because everything is built on open source these days, those requirements also trickle down into open source and companies are building their software bill of materials and need To manage their engagement with the open source project so that they're not just passive consumers anymore. They're now required to upstream changes and fixes. So there are things that are going to change the way that we are working in open source. And as this, since we're here on Chaos Cast, what I think this is super interesting for Chaos is as we are seeing changes in how we do work in open source, the metrics, I think, will reflect That. And we can revisit what we are seeing, what the metrics mean. ([Time 0:05:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/45249b6e-00ab-431f-9a33-45ea925fb945)) - **Prioritize Human Psychological Safety** - Elizabeth Barron urged projects to prioritise human-driven psychological safety over AI substitutes. - She recommended relying on humans for meaningful feedback rather than bots for deeper community connection. Transcript: Georg Link If I can add to that, one of the things that I think will be super critical as everyone is managing these things, there will be a lot of scanning going on of licenses that are going into the Software of what are the projects doing, what's going on there. And on a global level, if everyone is scanning our open source communities, if everyone is generating the metrics that we have in chaos, there's going to be a lot of repetition reinventing The wheel a lot of using compute powers to do things that others have already done so one of the things looking forward one of things i think we need to think about is how can we provide data, Open data, and reduce at the global level the amount of calculating that needs to be done so that these things like Anita was talking about, people can do and not have to worry about the Things that we are good at here in chaos. Elizabeth Barron So I just wanted to build on something that Anita had said about psychological safety and kind of the role that AI plays in open source in general. And I don't think that AI can replace humans in that way. When you're looking for psychological safety, what that means is that you feel comfortable contributing. You feel valued. You feel like you can be more of your authentic self as you contribute to the project. And I just don't believe that AI can fill that hole. I think that is something that only human beings can do. And so I know that I have seen some open source communities that I participate in, aside from chaos, try to use AI to fill that hole. It just isn't effective in my opinion. There is nothing like an actual human connection to make you feel safe. A bot is not going to make you feel safe. ([Time 0:08:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/15fd6918-bbf8-4163-aaa1-311a6a04df98)) - **Regional Chapters Drive Global Growth** - Anita Ihuman highlighted rapid regional growth via chapters like CHAOSS Africa and Asia expanding local engagement. - That grassroots momentum increased global awareness and practical use of CHAOSS metrics. Transcript: Alice Sowerby Okay. Anita Ihuman So I'm going to be a little bit biased with my response here. And I would say that I have noticed significant engagement from like the global engagement with chaos participation, especially like regional chapters. So we have like Chaos Africa, Chaos Asia, and I think there's one for LATAM as well. That has been really interesting to see because through these chapters, more persons are seeing or hearing about Chaos metrics and learning more about what we're doing in Chaos. And I remember I was in a board meeting for state of open con and someone was like, they're trying to use chaos metrics, but they're struggling with it. And I was really interested to know why they're struggling with it and how I could help them. But like learning about all of that just made me realize that so many persons are getting to learn about what that we're doing here in chaos. And most especially the momentum that is coming from these regional communities. Particularly here in Africa, we've had like CAOS collaborated with like so many smaller communities and just for like the local empowerment. And it's been really, really interesting to see. And I look forward to more of this come 2026. Elizabeth Barron Again, I would just like to build on what Anita had said about the global community growing and chaos. I just wanted to bring to the forefront the Chaos Asia community in particular. They have been growing quite a lot. And that has been due to, I just want to give a shout out to Divya Mohan and Rowan Mazzenberger for their extra efforts in welcoming folks to the community, trying to make the meetings More accessible, and just really working hard to promote the Chaos Asia community. So I am so impressed and proud of the work that they're doing and all of the Chaos Asia folks, not just those two, but everybody. It's, you know, it's always a group effort, but yeah, I just wanted to give them a shout out. I'm just incredibly impressed with the way that they're growing that community. I've also seen some shifting. I mean, we've talked about this before in other podcasts, but this shift of focusing less on the development of new metrics and focusing more on how metrics are being used continues To amaze me how the project just has evolved so much from the beginning and the original vision to what it is now. The organic growth is really incredible. I've loved watching it. I've loved being a part of it. I think Sean mentioned the other working groups that have been developed. We're just continuing to grow in that way. So I think that that's very interesting to see that. And that's been happening for a couple of years now, but it's even more so. We've pretty much gotten all the low hanging fruit metrics that we can. I think there's 80 something out there. So the metrics that we do focus on are, as Sean mentioned, just they're the deeper, the harder metrics to solve. We've got ourselves in this position now where we've taken care of the easy stuff and now it's trying to tackle the harder problems, which is super interesting. ([Time 0:11:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2459c652-c9d1-4057-b2b5-5c1d36c3d9ef)) - **Use CHAOSS Design And Practitioner Guides** - Georg Link recommended people check CHAOSS design, accessibility, and Practitioner Guides to understand current outputs. - He suggested these resources make CHAOSS more present and usable across communities. Transcript: Georg Link One is the design working group. I think also a lot of people in Africa are really helping us with design and chaos. And some of the visual assets that we're having now, just absolutely stunning. I'm so, so, so proud of all the work that they're doing and how this is helping Chaos be more present, more professional in every aspect. The accessibility is another highlight I have. There's a new interest from several people on how we can have metrics around accessibility, but also how we as chaos can follow the accessibility best practices. And I love to see that in the conversation. And then finally, the third thing that I want to highlight are the guides that we have had several podcast episodes on already. So if you're a regular listener, you will be well aware of what this is. And if not, go check out those episodes. ([Time 0:15:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dde9c27a-3ce0-4022-a0f3-3977c0b70e40)) - **Measure Trailing And Supply-Chain Effects** - Sean Goggins recommended measuring hard-to-observe effects like scholarly impact and dependency risks with new data approaches. - He urged using standardized package metadata to understand supply-chain effects. Transcript: Sean Goggins And also, I forget, I forgot you should mention the package management groups. We've got a couple new working groups that have emerged here towards the second half of the year in package management and ethical use of AI, or called AI alignment working group. And these two working groups are trying to find ways, and I think effectively finding ways to put data behind the things that projects need to measure, but have had a difficult time measuring. So we've talked for a long time about dependencies and transitive dependencies and had metrics for those coming out of our risk working group. Now I'm seeing many other approaches and those approaches are becoming standardized. So Andrew Nesbitt, for example, has really come up with a very clear and routine way of getting common information out of all of the different package managers on the open source earth. That has tremendous value for understanding the supply chain, for understanding the effects of AI, and for really, you know, measuring these very difficult things. Another example from the academic or really more the research software, scientific software group is trying to measure scholarly results that emerge from open source software. These are difficult things to measure because they're a trailing indicator. And by trailing, I mean the effect if you fund and support an open source project, the effect on scientific findings is like a two to four year cycle. ([Time 0:17:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/edb8db69-f3a6-43f7-83c2-211c388d4ca0)) - **More Contributors After Easier Installs** - Sean Goggins described a surge in software contributors to Augur since installation became easier. - He connected increased contribution levels to AI lowering entry barriers for some contributors. Transcript: Sean Goggins We've been working for almost 10 years now on chaos and getting folks and getting a steady contributor stream for the software projects has been probably one of our most significant Challenges, but also one of our most critical ones since the software takes the most sustained effort to preserve. And at first it was like, for some reason, we're seeing a lot more engagement in the Augur 8 Networking Group. And I wasn't sure why. And I think part of it is that we've made it easier to install, and there's more people working on it. But I think part of it is, I haven't figured out exactly the connection, but there's some connection between the availability of AI tools and the floor for new contributor entry being Higher than it was. So there's this trade-off and I'll talk about it a little bit more when we think about what's under the radar, but there's been a significant increase in software contributions. So like in a release, instead of two or three contributors, we have like 12 now. And I've got some theories about why that is, but I haven't quite narrowed it down yet. But I'm proud of the fact that that's happening really in a way that it hasn't before. ([Time 0:20:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fc3f3ce4-0fab-4f18-9853-5f9f473407b6)) - **DEI Work Continues Out Of Spotlight** - Anita Ihuman warned DEI work has become less visible but remains active behind the scenes, e.g., event badging. - She stressed continued DEI effort is crucial despite shifting public attention. Transcript: Alice Sowerby Right. Well, this is probably my favorite question that I'm about to ask now, which is, what do you think has gone under the radar within the project this year? And let's start with Anita on that one. Do you have any thoughts? Anita Ihuman Is the work from the DEI working group. So with like the recent social political shifts with the U.S., so many persons directed their attention away from topics of inclusion, belonging, and the safety of like marginalized People in the community, right? And even while this has been going on, so many persons also now shied away from being present in these meetings. And it's understandable. But then the DEI working group team has still made efforts to show up. And while some of the work is now like behind the scene, like the badging project, which now has over like we've badged over 200 events, open source events as of date. And it's really interesting to see that even with all of this happening, events are willing to, you know, apply for like the project badging to get that events badge. And I think right now there's a lot of work put towards spreading more awareness for project badging to assess the inclusion of open source projects as well. And the work is still on, but like when you attend the meetings, you would actually notice that there has been a slight shift from participation and engagement regarding topics around Inclusion and belonging. So I think that is one area that I think I have noticed a huge shift in this year. Georg Link So, so true. The conversations around diversity, equity, inclusion that I've had this year at conference in communities has shifted a lot. And the work for anyone who is interested in doing this is more important than ever. The work might be pushed into the fringes, into the shadows. And it is really important for us right now who are working on diversity, equity, inclusion to band together and continue to make progress, even if it is more in the background. Once the topic sentiment changes, we'll come back stronger. And so don't lose hope. Continue to do what you believe in because it matters. ([Time 0:28:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4afe4639-5768-49d4-87d1-379dd2ee02ad)) - **AI Increases Maintainer Labor** - Sean Goggins found AI increased maintainer labour and technical debt rather than reducing work. - He observed maintainers now spend more time vetting contributions for AI use and quality. Transcript: Sean Goggins We've talked about AI, right? It's in the headlines. It's everywhere. But I think the thing that has become clear to me is how AI is getting used and the effects that it's having. It is beginning when I look at the data from 150,000 open source repos that includes the LF and Apache and lots of scientific projects. It's really back in April that I could start to see in the data, the trace data from projects around the Internet, that the use of AI is being stated and sort of put into text in a way that We can detect it. And that is a very light trend, but it is increasing. And so the first thing is we can measure it now to some extent. The second thing is how it's affecting projects as a software project maintainer. It's had kind of a weird increase in labor effect. So the level of work required from software maintainers because AI exists is significant. I think the amount of time that's been required to maintain just the contributor community that grows because AI exists, it's at least the 2x increase in the maintainer commitment These days. And so that means that when you get a pull request, it doesn't state that AI is used, we're looking at it and assuming that we have to find out or understand if AI is used. And I don't think that's something that we expected to occur. The thing I'm seeing that we possibly expected, or some of us expected, is that as the volume of contribution goes up, our technical debt as an open source software project goes up as Well. So the amount of code that has to be maintained and critiqued in order for a software to remain sustainable, if you're accepting contributions from anyone, that has increased. And I think the effect of AI on increasing maintainer labor is not something that we expected. ([Time 0:33:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d673a3bf-ced7-4f9c-a83d-949114012b98)) - **Identity Is Critical For Attribution** - Georg Link raised identity as an unresolved problem: distinguishing humans, bots, and AI agents matters for attribution and metrics. - He highlighted emerging identity projects like First Person and cryptographic solutions as necessary developments. Transcript: Georg Link Have additional thoughts on the AI use that Sean has mentioned is very interesting new development. And there's something that is underneath that. I haven't quite wrapped my head around it yet, but I see it coming down. It's about identities. When we analyze open source communities, when we look at the metrics, we've always assumed that it is humans doing work in open source and that they have certain attributes. AI agents, they are bots. They're doing work for people, but not the people themselves. And while that is, it may be declared, I think it becomes really important moving forward that we have a clear understanding of who are the people. So if we can have proof of personhood and who are the bots and who do they work for, who are they instructed by, the infrastructure we have right now with Git and other tools does not allow For this level of identification. I know there's work underway. Jim Zemlin had announced this year that the Linux kernel is working on an identity solution with the first person project. Cryptographic, digital identity, wallets, all of those things, because they will impact how we identify who is who in open source projects. And our metrics right now, I don't think account for that. And Sean, I don't think we've talked about any of this really in the chaos project yet. ([Time 0:35:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/edca33f0-07cc-407c-9972-a60e8f4a7330)) - **Help Improve Onboarding Through Education** - Elizabeth Barron encouraged newcomers to give feedback on onboarding and use the Education Project as a starting path. - She advised contributing as learners, viewers, or authors to improve CHAOSS onboarding. Transcript: Elizabeth Barron Would like to see folks get engaged with really anything that speaks to them. And I know that that's kind of a non-answer, but we have people, you know, I mentioned it earlier, we have people coming every day to chaos. So the challenge is where do we point them? And we have some, you know, kind of generic docs and we have the tour guides and we have the newcomers hangout and we have other resources for newcomers. I would like to see folks give us more feedback on how we can make that process better. So I think that's one place for sure is engagement as a newcomer, helping us improve that process. And then secondly, helping them find the things that speak to them. And that's tricky because there are so many moving parts to chaos and we're always adding and changing those parts too. So that's also tricky. I'm thinking about the education project is such a great way for newcomers to join, but also it's a good way for folks to know what is even out there. So I would like to just see people engage with that project even more. And whether that's as a viewer, as a learner, or as a contributor, I just really love that project. I'm a huge, huge fan of it. As we mentioned, it was meant to take the place of onboarding, but it's really grown into something much larger. ([Time 0:39:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7e5ab3b6-10c0-4ddd-be45-94ed21313c24)) - **Prioritize Diversity And Sustainability** - Georg Link and Sean Goggins advised strengthening board diversity and project sustainability as top priorities. - They recommended focusing on inclusive governance and preserving community knowledge. Transcript: Georg Link One of the things that we have talked about at the board level, at the chaos board level, is how we can improve the diversity of the board and maybe introduce. There's conversation going on. I don't want to quite yet talk about the solution because we are still working on that, but it's something I'm looking forward to. Okay. Harmony Elendu Seems we have to stay curious and wait till like it's mature, right? But let's hear from Gerard and Ethan. Georg Link Yes, we'll update you. We'll have an episode on it maybe. Who knows? Sean Goggins When things shake out, really kind of the other side of that coin for looking at inclusivity of the board, which has been a topic of discussion, as Georg mentioned. I think sustainability of the chaos project is also always foremost in our minds. You know, what are the things that are happening in the community that we need to feed? Are there parts of the community that are starved or need more attention? And finding that way to sustain engagement is always important, especially for the parts of the project that we have so many people who kind of know how it runs. And we want to make sure that those thoughts and ideas are preserved and become a little bit more person-proof, as it were. So, you know, sustainability is always sort of, I think, an umbrella that we sit under as a primary objective from year to year. ([Time 0:42:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6812566a-e48e-432e-aa38-0f60be6d9479)) - **Fix Communications To Amplify CHAOSS** - Elizabeth Barron urged fixing the Communications working group to sustain outreach and consistently promote CHAOSS work. - She suggested someone step up to coordinate social and event promotion to maintain momentum. Transcript: Elizabeth Barron I would like to see, in addition to continued financial support where we can get it, of course, I will always ask for financial support. I will always wish for that just so we can do more things. But I would like to see, and Alice, this speaks to your heart, I know as well. I would really like to see the communications working group get figured out because we have gone back and forth with this group up and down. You know, we've been active and then inactive and then active again and now inactive. And for whatever reason, it's just really hard because all the folks on this team are so incredibly busy. And so it's like really hard to find time and space and energy for this group. But I think that it's really important to the project. I kind of fill in the holes where I can, and we've got some folks helping out with social media in particular for ChaosCon, but I would really like to see that just gel. Finally, I don't know how to make that happen. I really don't, but it is so important, I think, to kind of make sure the world still knows that chaos is here and what is happening because there's so much happening and just having that Team to help with the outreach of chaos. And even internally, you know, I do my best, but I'm sure that it could be better. 100% could be better. So that would be my wish for 2026 is that this team would magically just figure out how to stay active and how to find the energy to keep maintained. ([Time 0:47:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a161ca1b-01a2-450c-be29-6839594473ae))