Episode 13 Mike Demo - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 13: Mike Demo 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 13: Mike Demo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5f4R9JF2R8) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, open-source, cms, community] > author: Community and Code Podcast > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5f4R9JF2R8 > date created: 2024-12-16 10:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 13: Mike Demo - From Joomla to WordPress and the Open Source Journey >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Improve open source contribution onboarding — needs mentorship programs #community - [H2] Cross-CMS collaboration opportunities — reduce tribalism, focus on open web #strategy - [H3] Travel planning for work events — balance family/work responsibilities #devrel ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Hosting.com](https://hosting.com) - [Mike Demo's Website](https://mikedemo.com) ## 📝 Summary - Mike Demo, Partnerships Lead North America at Hosting.com, discusses his journey from Joomla to WordPress - Emphasizes importance of developer relations through human connections rather than pure product sales - Highlights challenges in open source contribution onboarding and need for mentorship programs - Discusses travel experiences combining work conferences with family time - Advocates for cross-CMS collaboration to strengthen the open web against closed-source competitors - Bottom line: Building genuine relationships and focusing on open source unity matters more than CMS tribalism ## 📖 Main Content Mike Demo's role involves helping agencies and developers become more efficient, whether through technical solutions, RFP optimization, or connecting people within the WordPress ecosystem. His approach emphasizes being genuinely helpful rather than pushing specific products, often recommending competitors when appropriate. His WordPress journey began uniquely - he was deeply embedded in the Joomla community, serving on their board and leading finance/sponsorship efforts. InMotion Hosting recruited him as a WordPress evangelist, sending him to WordCamp Salt Lake City as essentially a job interview to ensure he wouldn't "burst into flames" entering the WordPress community. The conversation reveals significant insights about open source contribution barriers. Both speakers note that despite claims about easy contribution, the reality involves intimidating processes where new contributors often get ignored. Drupal's mentorship model for contributor days - pairing every new contributor with an experienced mentor - emerges as a promising solution. On technical philosophy, Mike appreciates Joomla's willingness to adopt modern code standards aggressively (like mandating PHP7 first among open source CMSs) while acknowledging WordPress's clear leadership structure enables faster decision-making compared to Joomla's flat organizational approach. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Role Definition - Key idea: Mike's title doesn't accurately represent his actual work helping agencies and developers - Evidence: "Bottom line is I help agencies and their developers be more efficient in what they do" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=225) — [H2] DevRel Philosophy - Being Helpful Over Sales - Key idea: Focus on genuine helpfulness rather than product pushing builds lasting relationships - Evidence: "Sometimes that means recommending other providers. At the end of the day, that's what people remember is you being helpful" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=330) — [H3] WordPress Origin Story - From Joomla to WordPress - Key idea: Mike's WordPress journey began as a job interview at WordCamp Salt Lake City - Evidence: "He wanted to make sure I wouldn't burst into flames if I walked into a word camp" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=495) — [H2] Travel Challenges - Conference Centers vs. Destinations - Key idea: Business travel often means seeing conference rooms rather than actual destinations - Evidence: "Conference rooms around the world... it's not a vacation" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=750) — [H3] Family Travel Dilemma - Key idea: Bringing family to work events creates tension between work responsibilities and family time - Evidence: "Either I ignore my family or I feel like I'm ignoring my job" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=1125) — [H2] Vegan Travel Experiences - Key idea: Finding vegan food while traveling reveals surprising patterns globally - Evidence: "Way easier in Asia and the Middle East than I ever thought it would be" #### ⏱️ [28:20](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=1700) — [H1] Tech Origin Story - Early Computing Pioneer - Key idea: Early exposure to technology through family connections shaped career path - Evidence: "We had the first Apple 2 computer home computer in the state of Minnesota" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=1930) — [H3] HTML Mastery and Teaching - Key idea: Rapid learning led to teaching role while still a student - Evidence: "I finished the entire course in three days... he had me help him write HTML 2" #### ⏱️ [35:45](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=2145) — [H2] DECA Competition Success - Key idea: Early web development competitions provided valuable experience and networking - Evidence: "I won first place for the Seven Up Challenge banner ad design... I beat Jesse from Automattic" #### ⏱️ [38:30](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=2310) — [H3] Discovery of Mambo and Joomla - Key idea: CMS exploration through hosting auto-installers led to Joomla specialization - Evidence: "I was just installing CMS's, playing around... found Mambo and fell in love" #### ⏱️ [42:15](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=2535) — [H1] Open Source Contribution Barriers - Key idea: Contributing to open source projects remains intimidatingly difficult despite claims otherwise - Evidence: "It's really really hard for somebody brand new to a community to contribute" #### ⏱️ [46:20](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=2780) — [H2] Drupal's Mentorship Model - Key idea: Drupal's one-on-one mentor pairing for new contributors creates effective onboarding - Evidence: "Every new contributor has somebody... sitting with you... walks you through the whole process" #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=3150) — [H1] Joomla vs WordPress Technical Philosophy - Key idea: Joomla embraces modern code standards aggressively while WordPress prioritizes backward compatibility - Evidence: "Joomla was the first ever open source CMS to mandate PHP7" #### ⏱️ [56:10](https://youtu.be/m5f4R9JF2R8?t=3370) — [H1] Open Source Unity Over Tribalism - Key idea: CMS projects should collaborate against closed-source competitors rather than compete with each other - Evidence: "The battle is not with each other. It's with closed source systems that can hijack your data" ## 📚 References - [Community and Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5f4R9JF2R8) - [Hosting.com](https://hosting.com) - [Happy Cow App](https://happycow.net) - [DECA (Distributive Education Clubs of America)](https://deca.org) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Mike Demo helps agencies and developers succeed through genuine relationship-building rather than product-focused sales approaches, often recommending competitors when appropriate - His transition from Joomla board member to WordPress evangelist happened through a unique "job interview" at WordCamp Salt Lake City to test his cultural fit - Open source contribution remains unnecessarily difficult despite community claims, with Drupal's mentorship model offering a promising solution for better onboarding ## 📰 Newsletter **From Joomla Board to WordPress Community: Lessons in Open Source Collaboration** Mike Demo's journey from Joomla board member to WordPress partnerships lead offers valuable insights for our community. His emphasis on genuine helpfulness over product pushing resonates with WordPress's collaborative spirit. Key takeaway: The biggest opportunity in open source isn't competing with each other, but improving contribution onboarding. Mike highlights how intimidating it remains for newcomers despite our "easy to contribute" messaging. **Practical Applications:** - Consider mentorship programs for contributor days (following Drupal's successful model) - Focus on being genuinely helpful in community interactions - Look for cross-CMS collaboration opportunities **Resources:** [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) Connect with the broader open source community - our strength comes from unity, not tribalism. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Study Drupal's contributor day mentorship model for implementation at WordCamps - Education: Create onboarding paths for new community contributors with clear guidance - Developer experience: Review contributor day processes for intimidation factors - Community management: Establish "overly welcoming" culture similar to churches for new contributors #### Community - Contributors: Implement mentor pairing system for first-time contributors at events - Mentorship: Track mentor relationships on community profiles similar to Drupal.org - Onboarding: Create structured paths for different skill sets and interests in contribution - Cross-project: Explore collaboration opportunities with other open source CMS communities #### WordPress - Community: Design contributor day experiences that feel welcoming rather than intimidating - Training: Develop clear onboarding materials for non-technical contributors - Documentation: Create guides for different types of contributions beyond code - Events: Implement mentor tracking and recognition systems at WordCamps ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Mentorship programs significantly improve new contributor retention in open source projects - Cross-CMS collaboration initiatives strengthen the open web against proprietary competitors - "Lead handshaker" roles in tech companies produce better long-term relationships than traditional sales approaches - Early exposure to technology through family connections correlates with sustained tech career success ### 📊 Methodology - Survey analysis comparing contributor retention rates between mentored vs. non-mentored participants - Case study comparison of Drupal's mentorship model vs. WordPress contributor day outcomes - Longitudinal study tracking relationship quality from DevRel interactions over time ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress implement effective mentorship without overwhelming experienced contributors? - What specific barriers prevent new contributors from successfully onboarding in open source projects? - How might cross-CMS collaboration initiatives be structured to benefit all participants? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comparative analysis of contribution onboarding across different open source ecosystems - Study of family influence patterns in technology career development - Investigation of DevRel relationship-building strategies and their long-term business impact ### 💡 Implications - Practice: DevRel professionals should prioritize genuine helpfulness over product promotion - Policy: Open source projects need structured mentorship programs for sustainable growth - Education: Contribution barriers require systematic addressing rather than assumption of ease - Community: Cross-project collaboration strengthens entire open source ecosystem ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8-9 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Conversational format with clear topic transitions - Improve: Add timeline diagrams of Mike's career journey, CMS comparison charts #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio podcast format with natural conversation flow - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation to specific topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich analogies (church welcoming culture, conference rooms around the world) - Improve: Glossary of technical terms and CMS-specific concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Practical examples of contribution challenges and solutions - Improve: Step-by-step mentorship implementation guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships in career progression and project decisions - Improve: Comparison tables between different CMS approaches and governance models #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion with networking insights - Improve: Discussion questions for community groups, collaboration frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection on career choices and community involvement - Improve: Self-assessment tools for contribution readiness, individual learning paths #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about open source project relationships - Improve: Analogies to natural collaboration patterns, sustainability frameworks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure and topic organization - Improve: More descriptive section headings, better alt text for any visual elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Transcript navigation shortcuts, chapter jumping capabilities #### Contrast and readability - Present: Podcast format inherently accessible for vision impairments - Improve: High-contrast transcript formatting, adjustable text size #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Time-stamped captions, downloadable transcript formats ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of international travel experiences and global open source community - Improve: More diverse geographic examples, non-Western-centric perspectives #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms, respectful discussion of different communities - Improve: More explicit inclusion of underrepresented groups in tech discussions #### Representation - Present: Two white male voices in tech leadership roles - Improve: Acknowledge limitation, commit to broader representation in future episodes #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement and acknowledgment of different perspectives - Improve: More explicit discussion of barriers for underrepresented groups ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear career progression logic from early tech exposure to current role - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from multiple CMS community experiences - Causal reasoning: Solid connections between mentorship approaches and contribution success - Analogical strength: Effective church welcoming analogy for community onboarding #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful career path without discussing alternatives or failures - False dichotomy: Oversimplified "open vs. closed source" framing ignores nuanced hybrid approaches #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, honest, and reflective with appropriate humility about achievements ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No concerning denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on accusers or defensive behavior noted - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns identified - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Genuine, collaborative tone throughout ## 🎯 Conclusion Mike Demo's journey from Joomla to WordPress illustrates the power of genuine relationship-building in open source communities. His emphasis on helping people regardless of specific product outcomes creates lasting value that transcends traditional sales approaches. The key insight about contribution barriers - that they remain intimidatingly high despite community assumptions - points to actionable improvements through structured mentorship programs. The broader message about focusing on open source unity rather than CMS tribalism offers a compelling vision for strengthening the entire ecosystem against proprietary alternatives. ## 🧱 --- ## Full Transcript [00:13] [music] [00:18] Welcome to community and code the [00:20] podcast where we talk to the human [00:23] beings behind the commits. I am here [00:25] today with Mike Demo who is a technical [00:28] account manager at hosting.com. Although [00:31] we actually uh met up last week uh in [00:34] Word Camp Canada and uh like I'm going [00:38] to let you explain what it is that you [00:41] actually do because I don't know that [00:42] the words that uh are in your title [00:45] necessarily represent uh accurately the [00:48] things that you do. [00:50] >> Yeah. So, my title's actually been [00:52] updated since I filled out your form. [00:55] Um, uh, the first [00:56] >> I'm going off of LinkedIn, so you need [00:58] to update that, buddy. [laughter] [01:00] >> I I updated LinkedIn. Um, at least I [01:04] thought I did. Anyway, whatever. So, um, [01:08] yeah. So, [01:08] >> partnerships lead. Okay. You updated [01:10] your you updated your title. You didn't [01:12] update your headline. That's the That's [01:14] >> Oh, okay. Yeah. So, my I did not update [01:16] my headline. I do need to do that. [01:18] >> Yes. Uh so partnerships lead North [01:20] America [01:22] technical account manager. Bottom line [01:25] is I help agencies uh and their [01:28] developers be more efficient in what [01:30] they do. So that could mean uh helping [01:34] them get set up on the right type of [01:36] server or helping them optimize their [01:38] RFP process so they can sell more. uh [01:41] slash basically just connecting people [01:44] and trying to um help humans meet other [01:47] humans in a very non sales way. So [01:50] that's basically what I do is I my title [01:54] at in motion hosting when I worked there [01:56] was lead handshaker and that's basically [01:58] still my role today. [01:59] >> That's that that sounds that sounds [02:01] appropriate. what what you're what [02:03] you're not saying is that um I we see [02:06] each other basically at every uh [02:09] WordPress event that I go to. Um and I'm [02:12] sure there are many that I don't go to. [02:14] So also like I understand that there's a [02:18] fair amount of travel which makes it [02:20] feel to me as someone who is in Devril [02:24] uh that you kind of do a lot of like the [02:27] Devr stuff maybe not the developer [02:29] advocacy stuff but definitely like the [02:31] going places and talking to people and [02:35] uh trying to figure out solutions and [02:37] best practices for for what works uh for [02:40] the people that you're talking to at at [02:42] things like this. Is that not accurate? [02:44] >> [snorts] [02:44] >> Uh, no. I would say that's very [02:46] accurate. Um, definitely not like [02:48] pushing like a set of APIs or anything [02:50] like that, but um talking to developers [02:53] that work at agencies, specifically [02:55] larger agencies, about their pain [02:57] points, what what do they like with [02:59] their existing provider, what don't they [03:01] like, what do they wish they could do uh [03:04] from a platform perspective? and then [03:06] you know helping them if it makes sense [03:09] utilizing some of our services or if not [03:12] um you know making recommendations for [03:15] uh different things that might help you [03:18] know fulfill their needs. Um and a lot [03:21] of the time it's just edge case stuff [03:22] where hey I have this client who needs [03:24] this certification I've never heard of. [03:27] Do you have this? And I'm like yes yes [03:29] we do. Here's the documentation. Okay [03:31] great. So, it it really just depends. [03:33] But bottom line, just trying to add [03:35] value wherever it makes sense. Sometimes [03:37] that involves our products. Uh sometimes [03:40] it doesn't. Sometimes that means [03:41] recommending other providers. Uh it just [03:43] depends on what's best for the people [03:46] I'm talking to. And at the end of the [03:47] day, that's what people remember is you [03:49] being helpful, not [03:50] >> right. [03:51] >> Product A or product B. [03:53] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I have the I have [03:56] the extra bonus benefit of uh knowing [04:01] you from the very beginnings of your [04:04] WordPress origin story because uh what [04:08] uh folks uh who who don't know either of [04:11] us or both of us uh might not know is [04:14] that uh Mike's first word camp was my [04:17] word camp, Word Camp Salt Lake City, uh [04:20] that I was either organizing or [04:22] co-organizing. I can't remember what I [04:24] was doing then. Uh if it was I'm looking [04:27] at your thing if it's 2017 was your uh [04:30] if it if that's the year I probably was [04:33] I probably lead organizing that one. I [04:35] don't remember. It was a long long time [04:36] ago. [04:38] >> Um but yeah, so like uh tell the story [04:41] of of uh of your [04:45] >> how that how that became your entry [04:48] point into WordPress. [04:50] >> Yeah. So, uh, I've been in open source a [04:53] very long time. Uh, I steal a quote from [04:57] Jessica Dumbar, who was the evangelist [04:59] for Concrete 5 CMS. Um, I'm not married [05:03] to a CMS. I'm in an open source [05:05] relationship. And, [laughter] [05:08] uh, I started in Jumla. Uh, well, [05:11] technically I, you know, from a [05:13] community standpoint, I started in [05:14] Jumla. So, I was in the Jumla community [05:16] a very long time. And uh I was doing [05:19] senior dev stuff at agencies um mostly [05:22] jumla sites um for banks and credit [05:24] unions and then private uh private [05:26] equity uh portfolios and things like [05:28] that. Um and I ran into Todd at a [05:33] hosting conference. It was hosting con [05:35] in New Orleans and I was speaking there [05:37] on behalf of Jumla because I was the [05:40] finance team lead at the time. Um which [05:43] basically means selling sponsorships [05:44] too. uh you know companies don't want to [05:47] sponsor it um which basically means [05:50] selling to hosting companies to sponsor [05:53] the project just like all the open [05:56] source projects still do. Um and I ran [05:59] into Todd and I met Todd before at the [06:00] Jumal World Conference. Um he's the [06:02] co-founder of Inotion and they were [06:04] promoting Bold Grid which was their big [06:07] uh new push into WordPress at the time. [06:10] We started talking. They were looking [06:11] for an evangelist. He said it's not [06:13] Jumla. I said that's fine. and uh I [06:17] basically was offered a job, but he [06:19] wanted to make sure I wouldn't burst [06:20] into flames if I walked into a word [06:22] camp. So, uh he sent me to Salt Lake [06:25] City to as kind of like an as like an [06:28] interview. And uh yeah, that was my [06:31] first word camp. And the funny part [06:33] about that is the agency I was at was a [06:36] downtown agency in Minneapolis. Uh they [06:38] were a WordPress agency and I just [06:40] finished a a year-long project [06:42] converting them all to Jumla. I left [06:45] [laughter] to go work at Inotion as a [06:47] WordPress evangelist. So, uh, that's [06:50] kind of how I started in WordPress and, [06:53] uh, the rest is kind of [06:55] >> I don't know that we ever that we've [06:56] ever talked about this, but that just [06:59] makes me wonder why Salt Lake City like [07:02] why was why was my word camp the word [07:05] camp that you got sent to? Is there any [07:06] particular reason? [07:08] >> Uh, I don't think so. I think uh [07:10] InMotion um they were a global sponsor [07:14] or at least a North American global [07:15] sponsor. Um [07:16] >> yeah, I think I remember their logo [07:18] >> and I think it was just the closest the [07:21] ne whatever the next one was. [07:23] >> Yeah, [07:23] >> they had people going to um I don't [07:27] think there was any specific reason. Um [07:30] it was my first time in Salt Lake City, [07:31] so that was cool. I got to see the [07:34] Tabernacle Choir, so that was exciting. [07:37] Um, uh, [07:39] >> do you have to do anything fun in Salt [07:40] Lake City, though? [laughter] [07:42] >> Uh, [07:44] that first trip, not so much because I [07:47] came in so late at night. [07:49] >> Um, and I was also nervous because it [07:51] was a job interview, right? [07:53] >> Really know what to expect. So, I didn't [07:55] really do a lot of that trip. Um, I did [07:58] the Tabernacle Choir and Temple Square [08:00] and that was [08:02] >> uh, from an architecture standpoint, it [08:04] was super pretty. But um future trips [08:06] I've been to Salt Lake many many times [08:08] since then and I've you know done lots [08:10] of other things like Park City and all [08:12] that. [08:13] >> Yeah. [08:14] >> Yeah. I I always uh like I said, we just [08:17] came back from Word Camp Canada and I I [08:19] always have this problem with going out [08:23] to events because like unless you're [08:26] going to tack on a day or two or [08:28] something basically like you're not [08:32] going to a place, you're going to a [08:35] conference center and a hotel, you know? [08:37] Like I didn't see Ottawa. I saw the [08:42] inside of my hotel. I saw about one [08:45] blocks worth of downtown. I saw a small [08:50] corner of Carlton University and like I [08:54] saw a what was I I guess a pool place. [09:01] Doulies is I think a Canadian thing, but [09:03] I didn't have the context for that. And [09:04] then like a bar like that's that's what [09:08] I saw. [09:09] >> And a very eclectic vegan fast food [09:11] restaurant. and a very eclectic vegan [09:12] fast food restaurant. Yes, correct. [09:14] >> Yes. Um uh yeah. So people are like, "Oh [09:18] man, you're so lucky. You tra I travel [09:21] way less than I used to, but at the [09:23] height of my travel was 157 days a [09:26] year." [09:27] >> Um [09:28] and so that had good and bad parts of [09:32] it, but I would always say, "Yep, [09:33] conference rooms around the world, you [09:35] [laughter] know." So, what I always try [09:38] to do, although I've been doing this [09:41] less the older I get, is I try to get [09:45] the latest flight out on the last day [09:48] and try have [09:50] >> like [09:51] a a half day to do something in the [09:54] city. [09:55] >> Uh, and I still always try to do [09:57] something. Um, but it doesn't always [10:00] work out. Um, and I also find myself [10:03] going back to the hotel and sleeping [10:05] when I plan to like, but I had these [10:08] grand visions in my head to [10:10] do this or that. Um, but I was in London [10:13] a few weeks ago with some co-workers and [10:15] we went to the Jurassic World Expedition [10:17] exhibit. So, we did that for a couple of [10:20] hours. So, [10:21] >> little things like that, but definitely [10:24] it's not it's not a vacation, but the [10:26] arts with it. [10:28] >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I feel like [10:30] I feel that way too. Like yeah, when I [10:33] went to when I went to Atlanta um for [10:35] Drupal Con, like I would like to be able [10:37] to say that at least for some of these [10:39] places, I would like to be able to say [10:40] that I've I've been there and done [10:42] things. And for some word camps, um [10:44] particularly when I was at Humanmade, um [10:47] when we went as like sort of a big [10:49] group, we would do stuff together as a [10:52] group. That often meant like, you know, [10:54] things outside of the conference. So I [10:56] think that uh in Nashville [10:59] um one of the engineers uh principal [11:02] engineer at humanmade now cadam um had a [11:05] contact at like one of the record [11:07] pressing plants and so they gave us a [11:09] tour of the record pressing plant. That [11:11] was pretty cool. Um I think I had a [11:13] couple extra days so like went to the [11:14] museums and went to the Johnny Cash [11:16] Museum. Uh went to like a museum of uh [11:19] modern art or something and that was [11:20] that was cool. Um St. Louis got to go to [11:23] to City Museum. not that was where the [11:26] the afterparty was, but I didn't go to [11:28] the afterparty, but I then heard so many [11:31] good things about the afterparty at city [11:33] museum that like I had brought my family [11:35] out there with me. Uh so like we all [11:36] went then uh on a separate day and then [11:39] I think we went again because it was so [11:41] cool. Um [11:43] >> uh in Nashville, did you get a chance to [11:45] go to um tour Hatch show print the print [11:48] shop in the country music hall of fame? [11:50] >> I did not. So, do you This might be a [11:53] deep cut, but do you remember the [11:55] giveaway, the little poster we had at [11:57] Bold Grid? Um [11:58] >> uh I don't think that I do. [12:00] >> Um anyway, long story short, uh there [12:03] the oldest uh um uh printing company in [12:08] uh Tennessee is called Hat Show Print [12:10] and they do woodblock carve printing and [12:13] they still do it to this day. Now it's [12:15] part of the Country Music Hall of Fame, [12:18] um, which is a nonprofit. And, uh, we [12:21] hired them to get do our giveaway [12:23] posters for, uh, Word Camp that year. [12:26] And it was funny because everyone that [12:28] wasn't local was like, "That's a cool [12:31] design, but I don't get it." But then [12:32] all the locals were like, "Is that [12:34] Hatch?" And I'm like, "Yeah, because [12:35] it's like people that are into it." [12:37] >> Oh, I remember that now. And I totally [12:40] remember not getting it at the time. [12:42] >> Yeah. So, uh, anyway, uh, they also do a [12:45] tour and you can make your own little [12:47] poster and you learn about how they [12:48] carve out the wood and stuff. So, um, [12:51] that was that's super interesting. Um, [12:54] uh, yeah, there's good memories [12:56] everywhere. I do have a question for [12:58] you. So, [12:58] >> sure. [12:59] >> I don't like traveling with my family at [13:01] work things because I feel like one or [13:03] two things happens. Either I ignore my [13:05] family [13:06] >> or I'm I feel like I'm ignoring my job. [13:09] >> So, what are your thoughts on that? Uh [13:14] yes, [13:15] my fluts are yes. Um it's it's rough. I [13:20] And that's that's a conversation that [13:21] I've I've that we have ongoing with my [13:25] partner. Um like there there's a bunch [13:28] there's there's various different [13:30] layers, right? One of the one of the [13:32] levels is like the places that events [13:36] are aren't always or necessarily places [13:39] that we either her and I or we as a [13:43] family would want to go. Um so there's [13:46] there's that thing. So like if it's not [13:48] a place that's interesting, I mean we [13:49] had a lot of flexibility um you know [13:52] more years ago when um cuz we were [13:55] homeschooling our kids. So we could [13:56] pretty much pick up and go wherever. Um, [13:58] now, uh, my daughter's in high school. [14:01] Uh, my son's not in school, but like my [14:02] daughter's in high school, and so like [14:03] we have to, that would also be a [14:06] conflicting factor. Um, but so like [14:09] first of all, it's the place and is the [14:10] place interesting? Um and then second [14:13] secondly, yes, there's always the [14:15] problem like obviously like now and [14:17] particularly since I've put on the [14:19] developer advocate hat um where going to [14:23] the event is much more a distinct sort [14:26] of responsibility of my job. Um then I [14:31] feel more compelled to be present at all [14:35] of the other things like the [14:36] afterparties and the hangouts and [14:38] whatever because I'm on the clock. I'm [14:42] here. I might just be hanging out, but [14:44] I'm wearing my my swag. I've got my [14:46] Pantheon stuff on. I'm having [14:48] conversations. I'm looking for people [14:50] probably to have a particular [14:52] conversation with, even if it's just to [14:54] like make a connection, but just, you [14:56] know, to to be able to bring back to to [14:59] work or or, you know, just to have that [15:01] sort of like good Pantheon vibe uh at [15:04] the event. Um, and that's something [15:07] that, um, when I did go to things with, [15:10] um, with my family, I was doing much [15:12] less of because we'd want to do stuff, [15:15] you know, like it's, you know, the [15:17] conference is what, five, six, seven [15:19] hours or something. And so like the rest [15:20] of the time it's like, okay, we should [15:22] do something together. Um there's like [15:25] then you can do the sort of thing where [15:27] like you you kind of offset it like you [15:29] know we'll there's the couple days of [15:31] the conference but then you know the [15:33] weekend after or the couple days before [15:36] or whatever you can do stuff. Um and [15:38] I've done that too but this is that's [15:39] that's sort of a like a it's an ongoing [15:43] conversation. Um, and like there are [15:46] places that I' I'd like to go. Like I [15:47] would have loved to to like have hung [15:49] out in Ottawa for a couple days and like [15:52] done stuff with my partner. Um, like cuz [15:54] I wouldn't want to do it alone. Um, but [15:57] also like in the future like will I go [15:59] back to Ottawa? I don't know. Maybe, [16:00] maybe. But it's probably not high on the [16:02] bucket list like there's other places. [16:04] Um, so then it's like, you know, yeah, [16:07] then it's just like going to a traveling [16:09] on an airplane to go to a hotel. Um, but [16:13] yeah. um Nashville and and and uh St. [16:16] Louis brought brought the fam. Um I have [16:20] gone to I don't think I brought anyone [16:24] to Portland for a word camp, but we have [16:29] been to Portland. Um we all went to San [16:31] Diego for Word Camp US when it was in [16:34] San Diego. Um because that was a cheaper [16:38] for us. Um and also like San Diego is [16:40] awesome. And that that's sort of the [16:42] other thing too is like how much stuff [16:44] is there where yes I'm going to be gone [16:47] doing work things. So how many things [16:51] are there available for everyone else to [16:53] go and have a a good time? [16:56] >> Yeah. Word camp US San Diego. I loved it [16:59] that year. It gets it gets knocked down [17:01] a lot because it was small. It was [17:04] small. Like tickets sold out within [17:06] seconds or whatever it was. [17:07] >> Yeah. It was like Yeah. [17:09] >> Uh it was hundreds of people. not [17:11] thousand, you know, it was uh but [17:14] >> the venue was at that really cool like [17:17] uh mid-century modern [17:21] >> which definitely wasn't it had its flaws [17:24] as far as modern hotel amenities, but [17:26] being somebody who likes tiki culture, [17:28] uh that is the same hotel that they hold [17:31] the annual Tiki Oasis convention in. So, [17:33] I was in love with I was super happy [17:34] with it. [17:35] >> Did not know that was a thing. [17:37] >> Um yeah. Uh so I uh which is why I [17:42] stayed there and didn't try to stay at a [17:44] Marriott like I always try to do simply [17:46] because I wanted to be at that hotel and [17:50] I don't know it was one of my best work [17:52] camps. I feel from a from a work [17:53] perspective the people that came were [17:56] super were like there to have [17:58] conversations. It was a lot less uh [18:01] people that might have found it or [18:03] decided to come like you know. Uh, the [18:06] side effect of it, I feel like there was [18:07] a lot less users, but there was a lot [18:10] more BD conversations happening that [18:12] year and I think it was just a side [18:14] effect of the people that knew to watch [18:16] the drop were the people that are doing [18:19] all the time. [18:20] >> So, I but I liked that year. I thought [18:23] it was a really good year. Um, and the [18:24] venue was really nice. [18:26] >> Yeah. [18:26] >> Yeah. Uh, no. I have I have good [18:28] memories of of of that event, but part [18:31] of that is is just because it was in San [18:33] Diego and San Diego is awesome. Um, I I [18:36] find excuses to go to San Diego like on [18:39] a on on any day. Um, yeah. And I I mean [18:43] honestly like um Word Camp Long Beach. [18:46] Uh I spoke at um this would have been [18:50] 2017 maybe I think maybe 2019. um [18:54] somewhere in there in the in the [18:56] pre-COVID days. But like really the only [18:58] reason why I was even like the only [19:01] reason why it was on my radar is because [19:03] it was in Long Beach and like it could [19:06] we could like justify like just going to [19:09] California and going to the beach. [19:11] [snorts] [19:11] >> So that word camp in that year was the [19:14] camp I turned vegan. I literally am [19:17] decided to be vegan. Cold turkey. [19:21] >> Cold turkey. Well, cold cold tofu. [19:26] That's that's even worse. But you you [19:27] just you went full stop. You just like [19:29] I'm I'm vegan today. [19:31] >> Uh I did because I was uh I have a lot [19:34] of allergies. Huge long allergy list. Um [19:37] so I was basically only eating dairy and [19:40] uh eggs and uh poultry because I was [19:44] allergic to everything else. [19:45] >> Okay. [19:46] >> Turns out after but I was still getting [19:47] sick all the time. So, I Googled morning [19:50] sickness and I ended up on PETA's [19:53] website. Of course, they're talking [19:54] different thing. They were talking about [19:57] when you're pregnant. [19:58] >> But I was like, well, I'm in California. [20:01] Go to places any [20:05] >> uh and yeah. Um I was friends with uh I [20:09] don't know uh Tommy Tawo uh he uh was [20:13] the person who created Video Games Live, [20:15] the orchestra touring thing. [20:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. he was vegan and so he [20:18] gave me some tips and yeah, the rest is [20:22] uh history. I've since done other [20:24] testing with with my doctor and I also [20:27] have allergies to dairy and other and [20:30] you know as well. So basically [20:33] most everything animal related I'm [20:35] allerg I'm actually allergic to and I' I [20:36] have tests to prove that. Um they're [20:39] different things like I have the tick [20:40] bite allergy for the red meat and then I [20:42] go [20:42] >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. had. So, um, but yeah, [20:45] so I stopped getting sick all the time. [20:47] So, but yeah, but that was the word camp [20:48] where I tried to go vegan and uh uh [20:52] it it stuck. So, [20:54] >> yeah, that's uh I mean, speaking of [20:57] travel and going to events, like that's [20:59] that's often how how I rank uh the [21:03] places that the events are is how easy [21:06] it is to find vegan food. Um, and I I [21:09] feel like you probably travel a lot more [21:10] than me. Um, what what I guess an [21:15] interesting thing to to think about or [21:16] or what places have you been where there [21:19] was a surprising [21:22] uh lack of availability of of vegan [21:25] food? Maybe maybe surprising is not the [21:27] the the correct word, but might be. And [21:30] what places um was were surprising in [21:35] the availability of uh vegan food for [21:38] you? [21:39] Uh yeah. So um first off, shout out to [21:43] the Happy Cow app. If anyone [21:45] >> for sure, Yep. [21:46] >> if anyone needs to find vegan or vegan [21:48] friendly options, like not even full [21:50] vegan restaurants, like let's say you [21:51] have, you know, a [clears throat] friend [21:52] or something visiting wherever you are, [21:55] it it's amazing. It saves so much time. [21:57] But anyway, uh so as far as a place I [22:01] was really surprised that had a lot of [22:03] options, I would say [22:05] >> uh um when I was in Bangalore, India, so [22:08] I was surprised at all the vegan options [22:10] there, which again shouldn't be [22:12] surprising [22:13] >> um thinking about it now, but like [22:16] >> at the time I wasn't thinking about [22:18] that. Same with like Thailand and like [22:20] Israel and things. So like [22:22] >> um like Tel Aviv had tons of options and [22:25] I didn't even think about that. But then [22:27] looking back, I'm like, well, [22:30] >> you know, it kind of makes sense because [22:32] a lot of these places, [22:34] >> uh, vegan checks a lot of the boxes, [22:35] right? So it can be halal, it could be [22:38] kosher, it can now grant [22:40] >> there's certifications and different [22:42] levels of that depending on you know how [22:43] what you follow but [22:45] >> it was way easier in you know Asia and [22:50] um you know uh the Middle East type area [22:53] than I ever thought it would be. where [22:55] it's really hard is um uh like Eastern [23:00] Europe um [23:02] >> is really hard as well as like coastal [23:05] Europe like uh um Barcelona and things [23:09] because [23:11] >> a lot of many things are marked [23:13] vegetarian or vegan that have fish in [23:15] them and things like that. So [23:18] >> um and that I was really surprised [23:21] about. So, I was at a conference once. [23:23] It was a Jumla conference and I was in [23:25] Barcelona [23:27] and there was nothing in the hotel where [23:29] the conference was that I could eat. Not [23:30] a single item. Um, besides just like a [23:33] roll. [23:34] >> So, literally what I did is every day I [23:37] ordered Domino's pizza because they had [23:40] vegan cheese because by the way, how do [23:42] these American companies in every other [23:44] country have vegan options on the [23:46] regular menu but we don't get that in [23:47] the States? I don't understand that. [23:49] >> Yeah. Right. Anyway, um so I would [23:51] literally just order a Domino's pizza um [23:55] uh every single day of this weekong [23:57] conference. People made fun of me [23:59] because I was doing that, but there was [24:02] literally nothing else around. And where [24:04] the hotel was, there was nothing [24:05] walkable. [24:06] >> So, um I find uh that's why I try to [24:11] stick with Marriott a lot. People make [24:12] fun of me. They're like, "You you only [24:14] want American chains when you travel to [24:16] Europe and Asia." And I'm like, "Yeah, [24:18] two reasons. one points [24:20] >> and two I I know there's going to be [24:23] options at a full service Marriott or [24:27] Sheridan or West, [24:28] >> right? [24:29] >> I I understand it's not the most [24:30] exciting menu at the restaurants, but at [24:33] least you know there's something. So, [24:35] >> what about you? What have you been [24:36] surprised on like when you travel? [24:40] >> I I think when I think the first I think [24:42] sort of the origin story of of this [24:45] question or or or thinking about this um [24:48] was uh when I went to uh Word Camp [24:52] Denver um because I didn't necessarily [24:55] expect that Denver would be a really [24:56] good place for vegan food. Um, but it it [24:59] it had lots of stuff and again it's like [25:02] it's not super surprising surprising. [25:05] Um, but you know because it's it's a hip [25:09] cool [25:11] freeweed sort of place like you know [25:14] there's a lot of hippies. Um, and the [25:17] hippie and vegan overlap is is pretty [25:19] the vend diagram is is pretty strong. [25:21] Um, also like I I went to Sri Lanka and [25:24] that wasn't that wasn't hard uh at all. [25:27] um uh that I did a retreat there. [25:29] Hardest uh was definitely and [25:32] surprisingly hardest. Uh Italy was hard. [25:37] I did a a human-made retreat there. I [25:39] think my first human-made retreat and it [25:41] was that it was the same sort of like [25:43] European thing where like they don't [25:45] really get the criteria and trying to [25:48] explain it and like all the things and [25:50] also there's there's often a language [25:52] difference and like things. It's like it [25:55] was it was rough. Um [25:58] Japan wasn't super easy. Like I we went [26:01] to Japan as a family last year. Um we we [26:04] had like an Airbnb so we ended up like [26:06] cooking a lot of stuff but like going [26:07] out was like we had to be very careful [26:10] like happy cow again. But also there's [26:12] like there's like I think there was some [26:15] uh Google Maps thing that somebody made [26:17] of like all the vegan places in like all [26:19] of the all of Japan and that was very [26:21] helpful that other people had done that [26:23] homework. [snorts] [26:25] >> Hong Kong was similarly hard for me when [26:27] I was in Hong Kong. Uh although [26:30] thankfully I was staying at the [26:32] Disneyland Resort. Um so it was Disney's [26:36] always been very good in all their parks [26:37] so there's options there. Um, but I [26:40] think it was funny like I was in [26:41] Adventure Land and you know they had the [26:43] squid on a stick [26:45] >> and not because it was in Adventure Land [26:47] just because that was [26:48] >> you know we were in Hong Kong so that [26:50] was so um that wasn't too hard but only [26:53] at the sitdown restaurants it was almost [26:55] impossible to do the counter service or [26:57] fast food [26:58] >> um in Hong Kong [27:00] >> right and that's I feel like too like [27:02] that was it was a little bit for me [27:04] anyway it was a little bit of a bummer [27:06] um because you hear and you read so much [27:08] stuff about like um street food um in in [27:13] these places and like going down through [27:15] an area where there is street food [27:17] everywhere and being like can't eat [27:19] that, can't eat that, can't eat that, [27:20] can't eat that. Like when you finally [27:22] land on something where you can eat, [27:23] it's like, oh my god, you know, [27:26] >> 100%. Yeah. And it's good to have people [27:29] that like are local too. Like I had a [27:31] when I was at Kodul and I was in um [27:34] Thailand he's like oh just he's like [27:37] just when you get to any restaurant say [27:40] you want to prepare j which is a type of [27:42] preparation for um uh one of the uh [27:49] common religions there. Um, I don't [27:52] remember exactly which one, but he's [27:53] like, "It's super common. If you say [27:56] that, you'll be fine." Because [27:58] >> he's like, "That excludes all of these [28:00] things, which basically makes it vegan [28:02] for you." [28:03] >> And I was at a lot of places that I I [28:06] nothing on the menu. Then I'd be like, [28:08] "Jay." And they would be like, "Oh, [28:09] okay." And then they would bring me a [28:10] different menu. And it was [28:11] >> interesting. Interesting. Yeah. [28:14] uh even if I didn't speak the language, [28:15] he he told me how to pronounce the thing [28:17] to say and it was like it was like a [28:19] secret password to vegan in Thailand. Um [28:23] but uh which funny story on that is we [28:27] took a lot of our developers who were [28:29] local to uh Trader Vicks tiki restaurant [28:33] >> and uh a lot of the devs weren't they [28:36] don't drink alcohol. So I was like I [28:38] told my boss, "Oh yeah, it'll be fine." [28:40] you know, uh it won't be that bad. Uh [28:43] little did I know that, uh they had the [28:46] entire menu with a zero proof version. [28:49] So, uh it was the most expensive tiki [28:52] night I've ever seen because nobody had [28:54] alcohol, [28:56] >> but they were being charged tiki prices. [28:58] So, that was an that was fun. Um but [29:00] everyone had a good time, which is [29:01] what's important. [laughter] [29:03] So, a question I ask uh a lot of the [29:05] guests that come on uh this show is is [29:09] what uh what brought you what got you [29:12] into interested in tech? Uh whatever [29:15] that tech may be. Um, and I think for [29:18] you, I'm interested in Well, we can talk [29:20] about it later, but I'm also interested [29:21] in like um how you got to Jumla to begin [29:24] with and what uh sorts of things um like [29:30] the sort of differences between [29:32] WordPress and Jumla uh that you've seen. [29:34] But but we'll start start with like what [29:36] what how did you what is your sort of [29:38] origin story for getting into technology [29:40] broadly? [29:42] >> Yeah. So my dad used to uh work for Data [29:45] General which then got bought by GE and [29:49] we had ah the first Apple 2 computer [29:53] home computer in the state of Minnesota. [29:55] >> Oh. [29:56] >> Um in the early early in like 80s or 90s [30:00] or whatever it was. Um, so I've always [30:02] been really big in the tech and he my [30:05] dad was like the president of the local [30:06] rocketry club and um he was an engineer [30:10] on the for NASA before working for data [30:13] general for the Viking satellite project [30:16] and um so I I get it I've always been [30:20] introduced to it a lot from my dad. So [30:23] uh [30:25] I was always trying to make websites and [30:27] things like that. Um, so like in middle [30:30] school, I I I wrote my papers in HTML. [30:33] >> So, [clears throat] [30:34] uh, and then when I was a freshman in [30:37] high high school, I took HTML 1 and I [30:41] finished the entire course in three [30:43] days. [30:44] >> Um, it was my first ever elective in [30:47] high school. And then my teacher sent me [30:50] to a college course. I got the got the [30:53] school to pay for it. Um uh and I and [30:58] then he um he had me help him write HTML [31:02] 2 the next um h uh HTML 2011 which they [31:07] never even had yet. Um so I basically [31:09] was a TA the rest of the course because [31:11] I literally completed the entire class [31:13] in three days. [31:15] >> Mh. [31:16] >> Um and so I've had a lot of great [31:18] teachers. Um, and then I I got into [31:21] DECA, um, which is a business club [31:25] group. Um, which I have a [snorts] funny [31:28] story about that. Um, uh, which I'll [31:30] tell you in a second, but, uh, they had [31:33] website development and something called [31:34] the SevenUp Challenge. And so I would [31:36] enter that and um I won uh my senior [31:40] year of high school I won um at the [31:44] International Career Development [31:45] Conference first place for the Seven Up [31:48] Challenge banner ad design and website [31:50] campaign design. I built that in flash. [31:55] >> Super super fancy. [31:57] >> And then uh the DECA still exists in [32:00] college. It was called Collegiate Deca. [32:03] Um, I ended up winning uh first place [32:06] for website uh development there. Um, I [32:09] built that in um [32:13] PHP Nuke, [32:15] >> I think. [32:16] >> Um, funny story, uh, Jesse from [32:20] Automatic, [32:22] >> um, he was also competing that same year [32:25] and I beat him. [laughter] [32:28] Just saying. I mean, you can argue that [32:30] he ended up way more successful than I [32:32] did, but [laughter] I beat him at uh [32:35] that year. So, and we didn't figure this [32:37] out till like two years ago when he's [32:38] like, "I've only been to Disneyland [32:40] once." It was, "Have you heard of [32:41] something called DECA?" I'm like, "205 [32:44] career develop international career [32:45] development conference collegiate." He's [32:46] like, [32:47] >> "Yeah, like we" And then he's like, [32:49] "I've never anyway, long story short." [32:52] >> So, uh and then from there, uh I I was [32:57] an intern [32:59] I went to college for website [33:00] development, but I knew a lot of the [33:01] stuff already and just super into it. [33:04] Um, how I found Jumla was I uh Syron was [33:10] my first host. [33:11] >> So, [33:12] >> uh, [33:14] if you don't count like Angel Fire and [33:15] some of those other like shared, right? [33:18] Um, so I I was like a customer of Psych [33:21] Ground back when they only had one [33:23] product, you know, it was just hosting. [33:26] Um, and they had C panel with Fantastico [33:30] for the auto installer cuz software [33:32] didn't exist. [33:33] >> And I was just installing CMS's, playing [33:35] around with it. And then I found on [33:37] Mambbo and fell in love. And then uh I [33:40] noticed Mambbo wasn't getting a lot of [33:43] uh development after a while. Uh, and [33:48] then I started clicking around again and [33:50] found Joomla. I'm like, this is a lot [33:51] like Mambbo. I didn't know it was a fork [33:53] at the time. Mhm. [33:54] >> Um because I wasn't in the community and [33:56] then I just kept [33:58] building websites um for small [34:01] businesses and then uh started [34:04] freelancing and just kept doing that and [34:07] I selftaught myself all of Jumla um and [34:10] then PH you know uh PHP and stuff and uh [34:15] then started using it in my job um and [34:19] then that's how I ended up in the agency [34:21] life and then the more I got in the [34:23] jumla the more I went to the conferences [34:25] then met people who help who helped me [34:27] volunteer because I still think the [34:30] biggest hardest part of all these [34:31] projects is contributing [34:34] >> we all say it's easy to contribute like [34:36] oh you need to contribute you need to [34:37] contribute go to contributor today it's [34:39] really really hard for somebody brand [34:41] new to a community to to contribute like [34:45] for me for Jumla I sent email and email [34:48] and email filled out forms and no one [34:50] would get back to me it wasn't until I [34:52] went to a Jumla conference and said the [34:55] team leader and said I want to join your [34:56] team that anything happened and it's not [34:59] a knock it's just everyone's [35:01] volunteering so it's just the onboarding [35:04] process of any of this even at word [35:06] camps it's not easy for someone just to [35:08] show up and be and contribute because [35:10] it's all it's still clicky [35:12] >> like uh you have to really push hard and [35:15] I feel like that's a huge opportunity [35:17] that nobody's cracked the nut on yet I [35:20] feel like there need to be an onboarding [35:23] path for people that want to volunteer. [35:25] Uh like, oh, what are you interested in? [35:28] What do you want to do? Oh, let me [35:29] introduce you to so and so and whatever. [35:32] Um, you know, just throwing a big dock [35:34] and saying, here's how to prep for [35:36] contributor day. Pick your team. Good [35:38] luck. It's it's intimidating. Um, [35:42] >> anyway, so that's how I got into tech. [35:44] That's a very long answer. [35:45] >> I I I on the contributing topic. Um I so [35:50] I went to uh Drupalcon for the first [35:52] time this last year. Uh I stayed for [35:54] contributor day. Um contributor day at [35:56] Drupal Con is the last day. Um at word [35:59] camps it's often the first day although [36:00] it's kind of been either way. Um [36:04] and um [clears throat] [36:06] Drupal Con sort of starts off uh [36:09] contributor starts off like you kind of [36:11] figure out where [36:13] what if you're a developer you go with [36:15] the developers. If you're a marketing [36:16] you go with like marketers. And if [36:18] you're, you know, other things, I don't [36:19] know where where you go. Um, but they [36:21] kind of divide people up a little bit. [36:22] Um, and then at least for the developer [36:25] track, um, you for firsttime [36:29] contributors, you are paired with a [36:31] mentor. Um, [36:34] >> so every new contributor has somebody, [36:37] one person who has at least gone through [36:39] it and probably has gone through it a [36:41] couple times. Um, sitting with you and [36:44] like this is we're going to look for an [36:47] easy ticket for you to to work on. We're [36:49] going to like read up on what's needed. [36:51] We're going to find the line of code or [36:53] whatever. Uh, and then you make your [36:56] first merge request and um walks you [36:59] through the whole sort of process. And [37:00] the mentors also there's like a there's [37:02] like mentor leads and all the tables or [37:04] whatever. So like you know like when [37:06] they have questions they go so like [37:07] there's there's a whole process and I [37:09] think that like that level of one-on-one [37:12] uh interaction like like mentorship is [37:15] really uh really valuable. Um it's also [37:18] something that gets tracked on [37:20] drupal.org. So like you like my [37:22] drupal.org or uh profile now says who my [37:25] mentor was at Drupalcon Atlanta and his [37:29] drupal.org profile will show that he was [37:32] a mentor. Um and maybe the event, I [37:34] don't know. Um, and then yeah, like you [37:36] you do your thing and then like a lot of [37:39] the stuff that I feel like [37:42] in WordPress is is standardized now, but [37:45] like maybe at one point in time was was [37:48] more like ad hoc or like at the uh like [37:52] for props and things. Uh like all that [37:54] stuff is uh is sort of like built into [37:56] like how they've integrated with like [37:59] GitLab and things like that. like it's [38:01] it's it's it's actually a pretty good [38:04] like it's far it feels far less like I [38:08] don't know chaotic and you're kind of [38:10] left to your own devices than uh than [38:13] contributor days that I've been to at [38:14] work camps. [snorts] [38:16] >> Yeah. So, I think that's great because I [38:19] agree like when I was at the Dumal World [38:20] Conference and I met um uh Tessa Murro [38:25] who was in charge her and her partner at [38:27] the time uh were in charge of the Dumal [38:30] extension directory because I thought [38:31] that's what I wanted to do because I [38:32] liked you know uh learned very quickly [38:35] that was not the place for me. I I was [38:37] much better at the asking for money part [38:39] um than at the looking at uh code [38:42] quality and standards and for plug-in [38:44] submissions, sorry, extension [38:46] submissions. Um but she sat down and [38:48] showed me the whole process and it was [38:51] way less uh intimidating. Uh that mentor [38:56] idea is great. I know that they started [38:58] kind of like a word camp mentorship [39:00] thing at Word Camp US Word Camp. Um, so [39:04] there's definitely a lot of good ideas [39:06] that's going around at like Jumla does [39:08] this thing called pizza bugs and fun. [39:10] Uh, and that is like basically bug [39:13] squashing and, [39:16] >> uh, you can do it remotely or in person [39:18] and then you get some cash to, you know, [39:20] buy pizza or whatever. That's very easy [39:22] to join because somebody who's new can [39:24] just do the testing part or, you know, [39:27] whatever. Uh, it's very set [39:30] process-wise. I feel like there needs to [39:32] be good on-ramps for people who are [39:34] interested because I feel like it's [39:36] still the onus is still on the volunteer [39:40] to really push and I feel like that's [39:43] too bad cuz I feel like a lot of people [39:45] would give a couple hours a week if [39:47] there was just an easier on-ramp. [39:50] >> For lack of a better analogy, I feel [39:52] like when you show up to a contributor [39:53] day, it should feel like you're walking [39:55] into a church for the first time where [39:57] everyone is overly happy to see you. and [40:00] they're going to do whatever they can to [40:01] make sure you have a great experience. [40:03] [clears throat] [40:04] >> Uh uh [40:06] >> I don't, you know, I'm not not to knock [40:08] anything, but you know what I mean? Like [40:10] there's like [40:12] >> that that culturally, you know, [40:14] overwelcoming [40:16] culture. [40:17] >> Yeah. [40:17] >> And uh I think we can all kind of learn [40:21] from each other and make best practices. [40:23] But that Drupal process you're talking [40:24] about sounds awesome. And um uh at the [40:28] end of the day, I think a lot more [40:30] there's a lot of ways people can [40:32] contribute. It's not just code. Um uh [40:36] and uh that's what I always try to tell [40:38] people is you can contribute to projects [40:41] in lots of ways. It's not just sitting [40:43] there working on code um or [40:45] documentation. There's lots of ways you [40:47] can use your skills and whatever that [40:49] may be. [40:50] >> Yeah, for sure. Um, so yeah, now getting [40:53] back to the the last part of the very [40:56] long question that was actually three [40:57] questions. Um, having come from from [41:01] Jumla, um, I'm interested in what parts [41:05] of Jumla you really appreciated, uh, [41:10] well, Jumla, Mambbo, whatever. Um and [41:12] and what sort of you see as kind of [41:16] fundamental differences in like either [41:19] the approach or things that like like [41:22] yeah that are just different between [41:24] between Drupal or Jumla and WordPress. I [41:26] had I I was on a panel recently at Bad [41:29] Camp uh where we had somebody who had [41:31] experience with Jumla and me as the [41:34] WordPress guy and then um and then [41:36] there's a Drupal con so or camp so [41:39] obviously everyone else is understanding [41:40] things from a Drupal context and so it [41:42] was interesting having the conversation [41:43] about like how do each CMS kind of [41:47] approach things differently and I'm I'm [41:49] interested in sort of like your take [41:50] from particularly from being so embedded [41:53] in in Jumla. [41:55] >> Yeah. So I used to be on the board of [41:58] Jumla. Um well technically open source [42:00] matters which is the legal entity but [42:02] anyway we don't need to get into you [42:04] know governance. Um I think from a code [42:08] perspective what Jumla has that's really [42:10] interesting is um [42:15] is they are not afraid to you know be on [42:20] beyond modern uh beyond modern code [42:23] bases and modern frameworks. Um, that's [42:27] also could be, you could argue, be the [42:29] detriment to the project because, you [42:32] know, breaking BC has kind of become a [42:35] meme in Juba. It's gotten better, [42:38] >> especially more recently. The it's very [42:40] easy to up Well, it's much less painful [42:43] than it used to be from what I [42:44] understand. Obviously, I'm I'm now using [42:46] it more as a hobby than as like a daily [42:49] thing. But, um, so I think that's super [42:52] interesting. Like a Jumla was the first [42:54] ever open source CMS to mandate PHP7. [42:58] >> Um and hosts hated us. [43:02] >> Like tons of hosts were mad. Hundreds of [43:04] hosts were upset. Um but the project [43:07] made that decision and because of that [43:11] it made it it pulled up the standard for [43:14] everyone else. Um and so it all we all [43:18] all the projects especially in the PHP [43:20] open source world. So, you know, affect [43:22] each other in different ways in ways [43:24] that we might not even think about. Um, [43:28] uh, so I I really like that about it. [43:30] Um, [43:32] what I like about Jumla is that the [43:35] governance is because I was there when [43:36] it was reorganized. Um, the governance [43:39] is very public. Um, you can see how the [43:41] governance is set up and it's all laid [43:44] out and uh, as far as how voting goes [43:47] and things like that, similar to Drupal [43:49] where you can [43:51] join and get you know vote and things [43:53] like that. So uh I appreciated that but [43:56] on the flip side on the reorg jumla [44:00] became a very flat organization and [44:03] >> lots of I've seen lots of stuff stall. [44:05] So you know where [44:08] other projects like Drupal and WordPress [44:11] have I would say more clear direction [44:14] because they have a lead and that has [44:17] that has significant benefits too. So, [44:21] um, [44:23] it I'm just a, you know, my whole [44:26] philosophy is figuring out what makes [44:28] sense for open source in general because [44:31] I think the battle is not with each [44:34] other. Uh, it's with closed source [44:37] systems that um can hijack your data or [44:40] can, you know, handcuff you and make it [44:43] very expensive very quickly. And Shopify [44:45] is a perfect example of that. Shopify is [44:47] a great user experience. I'm not it's an [44:50] amazing user experience for a store [44:51] owner and it's very easy to enter but [44:54] then when you have success it gets very [44:56] expensive very quickly. Um and that is [45:01] where I feel like um we need to focus on [45:05] and there's been initiatives like this [45:07] um like uh [45:10] uh like there's all things open and [45:13] other like convent like open source [45:15] conferences where people try to come [45:16] together and share best practices and [45:18] things and um there's been nonprofits [45:21] like in Germany there was a nonprofit [45:22] called the CMS garden which had I think [45:25] 12 open source projects part of it Um, [45:28] so there's been initiatives and things, [45:30] but I feel like in every open source [45:33] project there's so much tribalism and I [45:36] feel like it doesn't help anybody. [45:37] >> Mhm. [45:38] >> You know, being number one in WordPress, [45:41] that's amazing. WordPress is great. I [45:42] love WordPress. Uh, but does it is that [45:46] what's really important or is getting [45:49] more people onto the open web, [45:50] regardless of what that means, more [45:52] important? [45:52] >> Yeah. [45:54] Well, thank you, Mike, for coming. uh [45:57] that we're kind of at time at this [45:59] point. Uh but before we go, uh where can [46:02] people find you on the internet? [46:05] >> Uh sure. So you can find me on my [46:07] website, miked demo, uh.com. Um mpmike [46:11] [clears throat] onx. Um and that's where [46:15] I'm most active. And uh yeah, I'm also [46:19] can you can find me at hosting.com and [46:22] different webinars and things over time. [46:24] But um pretty much all my links from [46:27] miked demo.com will get you to all of [46:29] the socials and all of the things. [46:32] >> Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming [46:34] on. Uh it was a pleasure to have you on [46:36] the show. Uh and uh yeah, for everyone [46:40] else that is watching or listening to [46:41] this, uh we will see you on the [46:43] internet. Awesome. Thanks, [46:48] [music] [46:55] >> [music]