Episode 16 Dee Teal [01kdv2kdrnk9y4grdmqprvethf]

Episode 16: Dee Teal 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 16: Dee Teal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jTpmbvPdg) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [community, leadership, cultural-diversity] > author: Community and Code > source: Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jTpmbvPdg > date created: 2024-12-19 12:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 16: Dee Teal - Cultural Algorithms and Inclusive Leadership >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Advocate for implicit bias training in workplace — proven transformative impact #diversity - [H2] Challenge hiring for "cultural fit" practices — promotes homogeneity over innovation #hiring - [H3] Support WP includes mentoring program — addresses gender leadership gap in WordPress #mentorship ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [WP includes](https://wpincludes.me) - [Future of Teams Podcast](MISSING) ## 📝 Summary - Dee Teal discusses "cultural algorithms" - unique approaches different cultures bring to workplace problem-solving - Implicit bias training proved transformative for recognizing racial and other biases in global remote teams - WP includes mentoring program addresses severe gender gap in WordPress leadership (disproportionately low compared to other tech) - "Melting pot" metaphor criticized in favor of "tapestry" model that celebrates distinct cultural contributions - WordPress community exemplifies collaborative abundance mindset despite technical competition ## 📖 Main Content Dee Teal, project manager and WordPress community veteran, explores how cultural diversity enhances workplace innovation through what she terms "cultural algorithms" - distinct problem-solving approaches rooted in cultural backgrounds. Her research identified examples like Dutch consensus-building traditions (developed from collaborative flood management) and Indigenous seven-generation planning principles that consider long-term impacts. The conversation centers on moving beyond "cultural fit" hiring toward celebrating diverse perspectives. Teal argues that expecting newcomers to conform to existing culture creates a "melting pot" effect that produces homogeneous results, losing the innovation potential that diversity offers. Instead, she advocates for a "tapestry" model where distinct contributions remain visible while contributing to a richer whole. Teal's involvement with WP includes addresses concerning gender representation in WordPress leadership, where women hold disproportionately fewer C-suite positions compared to other tech industries. The mentoring program pairs established women leaders with emerging talent through three-month cohorts focused on skill development and confidence building. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Background - Key idea: Dee Teal is a project manager and WP includes mentor from Melbourne, Australia - Evidence: "I'm a New Zealander who's now lived in Australia almost longer than I ever lived in New Zealand" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=150) — [H2] Cultural Identity and Relationships - Key idea: National identity differences create complex sibling-like rivalries - Evidence: "New Zealand attitude is that we will support New Zealand above all and then any other country playing Australia" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=345) — [H1] WordCamp Canada Talk on Cultural Algorithms - Key idea: Different cultures bring unique problem-solving approaches to workplaces - Evidence: "The algorithms that humans bring to the workplace... cultural algorithms that people bring" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=500) — [H2] Seven Generations Planning Example - Key idea: Indigenous planning considers impacts seven generations ahead, affecting work pace and deliberation - Evidence: "Thinking that far ahead... you're going to see their output be slower, more considered in conversation" #### ⏱️ [11:15](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=675) — [H1] Melting Pot vs Tapestry Metaphor - Key idea: Cultural integration should preserve distinct contributions rather than homogenizing - Evidence: "What if it was more like a tapestry when you've got all these different things weaving together" #### ⏱️ [14:30](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=870) — [H2] Play-Doh Analogy for Cultural Mixing - Key idea: Excessive cultural blending creates uninteresting uniformity - Evidence: "You put all these things together... the more you mix them, the more ugly it gets, that yucky brown" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1125) — [H1] Implicit Bias Training Impact - Key idea: Bias training in Sri Lanka revealed deep-seated racial prejudices despite intellectual opposition - Evidence: "I was racist... my underlying biases were very much against... the brown people... I was horrified" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1330) — [H2] Unexpected Gun Ownership Bias - Key idea: Chris discovered strong bias against gun owners during same training - Evidence: "I was so deeply biased against gun owners... I have an immediate picture and impression" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1540) — [H1] Dutch Consensus Building Culture - Key idea: Historical flood management required collaborative governance, creating consensus-building cultural algorithm - Evidence: "Teams, towns and villages had to work together... even they would normally be feudal" #### ⏱️ [28:55](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1735) — [H2] Hiring for Cultural Fit Problems - Key idea: Cultural fit hiring typically means hiring for homogeneity rather than complementary diversity - Evidence: "Cultural fit generally just means you're hiring to be homogeneous" #### ⏱️ [32:20](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1940) — [H1] WP includes Mentoring Program - Key idea: Program addresses disproportionately low women leadership in WordPress companies - Evidence: "Numbers are very low... disproportionately low in comparison with C-suite in other tech industries" #### ⏱️ [35:45](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2145) — [H2] Mentoring Relationship Dynamics - Key idea: Mentoring creates bidirectional learning and ongoing relationships beyond formal programs - Evidence: "Relationships have been ongoing after the cohort officially ends... mentors get as much out of it as well" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2430) — [H1] Imposter Syndrome Origins - Key idea: Imposter syndrome concept has roots in pushback against feminist advancement - Evidence: "Originates from something during women's liberation movements... finding reasons for those things to not be true" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2715) — [H2] WordPress Community Abundance Mindset - Key idea: WordPress events foster collaboration despite technical competition between companies - Evidence: "Here we all are competitors effectively... it doesn't feel like that at all" #### ⏱️ [48:50](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2930) — [H1] Cross-CMS Community Similarities - Key idea: Different technical communities share fundamental human-centered values - Evidence: "Come for the code, stay for the community... we are all just people and this is all just software" ## 📚 References - [WP includes Mentoring Program](https://wpincludes.me) - [Future of Teams Podcast](MISSING) - [Community and Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jTpmbvPdg) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Cultural backgrounds provide distinct problem-solving approaches that enhance workplace innovation when recognized and leveraged rather than suppressed - Implicit bias training reveals unconscious prejudices that limit team effectiveness and individual growth opportunities - Gender representation gaps in WordPress leadership require intentional mentoring programs to develop and support women advancing to executive roles ## 📰 Newsletter **Embracing Cultural Algorithms for WordPress Team Innovation** The WordPress community has always celebrated "come for the code, stay for the community," but are we fully leveraging the diverse perspectives our global contributors bring? Dee Teal's research on "cultural algorithms" reveals how different cultural backgrounds offer unique problem-solving approaches - from Indigenous seven-generation planning to Dutch consensus-building traditions. Instead of hiring for "cultural fit" (often code for homogeneity), WordPress teams can build "tapestries" where distinct voices enhance collective innovation. **Take Action:** - Advocate for implicit bias training in your WordPress organization - Challenge hiring practices that prioritize conformity over complementary diversity - Support initiatives like WP includes that address leadership representation gaps **Key Resources:** - [WP includes Mentoring](https://wpincludes.me) - Advancing women in WordPress leadership - [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/) - Community-driven education - [WordPress Diversity Initiatives](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/community-deputy/other-event-formats/contributor-day/diversity-speaker-support/) - Supporting underrepresented voices The strength of WordPress lies not in our technical uniformity, but in the rich diversity of perspectives that make our community and code better. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Research cultural algorithms in global developer communities, create inclusive event formats - Education: Develop bias-aware documentation and tutorial strategies for diverse learning styles - Developer experience: Audit developer tools and processes for cultural assumptions and barriers - Community management: Implement mentoring programs connecting experienced developers with underrepresented newcomers #### Community - Maintainers: Create cultural competency guidelines for project leadership and contributor onboarding - Contributors: Establish first-contribution programs that celebrate diverse problem-solving approaches - Sponsors: Fund implicit bias training and diversity initiatives with transparent impact measurement - Ecosystem: Coordinate cross-community learning between WordPress, Drupal, and other CMS platforms #### WordPress - Core: Prioritize inclusive design patterns and cultural considerations in user interface development - Community: Expand WP includes model to other underrepresented groups, develop local chapter support - Training: Create lesson plans covering cultural competency and bias awareness for WordPress professionals - Marketing: Develop campaigns highlighting diverse global WordPress community contributions and perspectives #### The WPCC - Programs: Fund cultural competency training and bias awareness workshops for WordPress organizations - Projects: Support research on diversity impacts and cultural algorithm effectiveness in WordPress teams - Funding: Provide matched grants for organizations implementing inclusive leadership development programs ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Teams trained in implicit bias recognition demonstrate higher innovation rates and employee satisfaction than untrained control groups - Organizations using "cultural tapestry" hiring models achieve better problem-solving outcomes than those prioritizing cultural fit - Mentoring programs addressing specific representation gaps produce measurable increases in leadership diversity within 18-month timeframes - Cultural algorithm awareness training reduces workplace conflict and improves cross-cultural team performance ### 📊 Methodology - Longitudinal study comparing innovation metrics between bias-trained and control teams across WordPress agencies - A/B testing of hiring practices measuring problem-solving effectiveness and team satisfaction outcomes - Cohort tracking of WP includes participants measuring career advancement and leadership role attainment ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress companies systematically identify and leverage cultural algorithms within existing teams? - What specific metrics best measure the ROI of diversity and inclusion initiatives in technical organizations? - How do cultural algorithms manifest differently in remote-first versus in-person WordPress development environments? ### 🔮 Future Research - Mapping cultural problem-solving patterns across global WordPress contributor communities - Developing assessment tools for identifying cultural algorithms during hiring and team formation - Creating frameworks for translating cultural competency research into practical WordPress organization policies ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress teams need structured approaches to identify and celebrate diverse problem-solving styles rather than defaulting to cultural conformity - Policy: Hiring practices requiring "cultural fit" may violate diversity goals and should be replaced with complementary skill and perspective assessment - Education: WordPress training programs should incorporate cultural competency and bias awareness alongside technical skill development - Funding: Investment in diversity initiatives requires long-term commitment and measurement frameworks to demonstrate community-wide impact ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (complex workplace psychology and cultural concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Metaphorical examples (tapestry vs melting pot, Play-Doh color mixing) - Improve: Cultural algorithm flowcharts, bias training impact visualization, mentorship program structure diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio with conversational exploration of concepts - Improve: Key quote compilation audio, bias training exercise examples #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of cultural algorithms, extensive analogies and real-world examples - Improve: Glossary of diversity terminology, comparative cultural practice explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable mentoring program structure, step-by-step bias recognition process - Improve: Interactive cultural algorithm assessment tools, hands-on bias training exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between diversity and innovation outcomes - Improve: Quantitative data on WordPress leadership demographics, ROI metrics for inclusion initiatives #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community mentoring program model, collaborative problem-solving examples - Improve: Peer discussion guides, cross-cultural team building frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-reflection prompts about personal biases and cultural assumptions - Improve: Individual assessment worksheets, private bias examination tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem metaphors for community health and diversity - Improve: Cultural algorithm connections to environmental adaptation, community sustainability frameworks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive section labels - Improve: Alt text for cultural metaphor visualizations, ARIA labels for interactive elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard web navigation patterns - Improve: Skip links to key sections, logical tab order through action items #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast ratios - Improve: High contrast mode for detailed cultural algorithm diagrams #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design supporting zoom - Improve: Prevent clipping of complex metaphor explanations at higher magnifications #### Media and captions - Present: Full podcast transcript provided - Improve: Chapter markers for key concept sections, downloadable transcript with timestamps #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic form accessibility - Improve: Inline validation for cultural competency assessment tools ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global perspectives from New Zealand, Australia, Canada, US, Sri Lanka, India, Netherlands - Improve: Additional Indigenous voices, more diverse cultural algorithm examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of bias and privilege, defined technical terms - Improve: Plain language alternatives for academic concepts, avoid assumption of workplace privilege #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section structure, consistent formatting - Improve: Content warnings for bias discussions, alternative formats for complex metaphors #### Representation - Present: Women's voices in leadership discussion, acknowledgment of various identity intersections - Improve: More non-binary and transgender perspectives, diverse professional backgrounds #### Psychological safety - Present: Vulnerable sharing about bias recognition, supportive community framing - Improve: Resources for processing bias awareness, trauma- --- ## Full Transcript [00:18] Welcome to Community and Code the [00:20] podcast where we talk to the human [00:21] beings behind the commits. I am here [00:23] today with D Teal. She is a project [00:26] manager. She has been in the WordPress [00:28] ecosystem for a long time but not now. [00:30] And uh you are one of the mentors [00:33] involved in WP includes which we can [00:35] talk about. Uh I'll let you uh introduce [00:37] yourself more fully but welcome to the [00:39] show D. [00:40] >> Thank you Chris. It's lovely to be here. [00:42] Hi folks. I'm D. I am coming at you live [00:45] from well not live probably from [00:47] Melbourne. Melbourne, Australia. I'm a [00:48] New Zealander who's now lived in [00:50] Australia almost longer than I ever [00:52] lived in New Zealand. And uh yeah, I [00:55] love the WordPress community. As Chris [00:57] said, I'm no longer actually actively [00:59] working in it. Though to be fair, I've [01:01] just landed a client that has WordPress. [01:03] Um uh but I have stayed very close to it [01:07] largely because most of my friends are [01:09] still there. So um and you never know, [01:11] maybe one day I'll be back. So I'm [01:13] keeping close just to make sure. [01:15] >> So I think the question everyone is is [01:17] definitely dying to to hear the answer [01:20] to is what is the difference between a [01:21] New Zealander and an Australian? [01:24] Oh man, that is a fraught fraught [01:28] question. This you might as well ask. [01:29] >> That's why I brought it here. [01:31] >> You might as well ask what's the [01:32] difference between a Canadian and [01:33] American. [01:34] >> Oo yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean I there's [01:36] things I could name for sure like you [01:39] know socialized healthcare for one and [01:41] >> well well yes. Well I mean we both New [01:43] Zealand and Australia both both have [01:45] that uh have that in our favor. So there [01:48] are some stark differences perhaps [01:50] between and austral because I would put [01:52] us I as a New Zealander would probably [01:54] say that the analogy would be I would [01:57] liken it Australia more to America in [02:00] that scenario not because Australia is [02:02] like America but in terms of the [02:06] >> personality maybe I'm going to get so [02:09] much clap [02:11] >> for saying these things. [02:12] >> I'm sure there are no Australians that [02:14] listen to this show. I'm losing [02:18] H no. Um we and I guess it's similar to [02:22] the relationship you see that kind of [02:24] big brother or not even big brother but [02:26] that sibling type rivalry. I mean we I [02:30] think we uh one of the I mean New [02:32] Zealand is a a rugby union loving [02:35] nation. Uh the kind of everybody in New [02:37] Zealand lives and breathes what goes on [02:39] in the rugby and very little else. And [02:41] um and I think our attitude is that we [02:45] will support [02:46] uh New Zealand above all and then any [02:49] other country playing Australia, you [02:51] know. So so that's kind of a little bit [02:54] indicative of of how people feel. [02:57] >> Um well, we so we know each other uh [03:00] from a long time ago when we both worked [03:02] at Humanade, which is a WordPress [03:03] agency. Uh and we work together a lot in [03:06] that context. Um [03:09] >> and uh I mean, I have always really [03:13] enjoyed the few opportunities that we [03:16] have had to uh see each other in person [03:19] because it's quite a distance between [03:21] where you live and where I live and [03:24] where things are are often uh sort of [03:26] organized and and and people gather. [03:28] Yeah. Um but there have been a few uh a [03:31] few occasions. Uh most recently though, [03:34] we were both in Ottawa for Word Camp [03:36] Canada. um talk about uh the talk that [03:39] you gave at Word Camp Canada. [03:42] >> Uh so I [03:46] am very very interested in the dynamics [03:49] and relationships [03:51] um about people working together. Um so [03:56] the I'm going to struggle actually I [03:59] should have actually pulled it up [04:00] because I'm going to struggle to [04:01] remember the title. It's kind of a [04:02] convoluted title, but I was was talking [04:06] about the algorithms that humans bring [04:10] to the workplace. Uh less so than the [04:13] algorithms that we [04:15] most commonly cultural algorithms. Yeah. [04:17] The hidden innovation multiplier I think [04:19] was was what the rest of that [04:21] >> something was. Well, it it is really [04:24] pretentious and it's and it was sneaky [04:27] because I read the brief from the [04:30] organizers to say this is what we wanted [04:32] to talk about and I couldn't see [04:35] the because innovation was was [04:40] >> a primary driver right of of the [04:42] conversations that they were wanting to [04:43] have. And so this was a carefully [04:45] crafted title to cut through the [04:48] selection process and it worked. [04:51] And so, but the whole the whole theme of [04:53] it was that sense of particularly in [04:56] this world that we work in that is [05:00] >> um much more remote, much more virtual [05:02] environments that gives you access to a [05:04] much greater diversity of cultural [05:08] experience and cultural algorithms that [05:12] people bring to the workplace. And so it [05:13] was kind of a bit of a research [05:15] examination to explore what that [05:17] actually looked like and what that [05:18] actually might mean on the on the you on [05:22] the face of people actually working [05:24] together [05:26] >> because one of the Yeah, it was really [05:28] interesting to me to go well I've got [05:29] people who I'm in uh you know Australia, [05:33] Asia Pacific and so we have people [05:36] working from between Australia and New [05:37] Zealand which is a you know [05:40] a result of colonialism and and So, a [05:43] dominant white culture by and large and [05:46] then other countries [05:48] uh working alongside us are working that [05:50] we have access to that, you know, [05:53] there's a lot of workplaces that are [05:54] having to navigate. Okay. What does that [05:55] look like when we've got all of these [05:57] different cultures working together? [05:59] >> Yeah. And I and maybe I warmed up uh [06:01] that particular subject a little bit [06:03] more uh accidentally than I had intended [06:06] to by even just talking about the the [06:08] difference of of New Zealand and [06:10] Australia and the difference between [06:11] Canada and the US because [06:13] >> um [06:14] >> I I definitely remember the I wouldn't [06:18] say it's it it's necessarily culture [06:20] shock, but it's definitely a cultural [06:21] adjustment um that I went through [06:25] transitioning from working at a a [06:28] US-based agency WebDev Studios, [06:30] WordPress agency, does a lot of big, you [06:33] know, enterprise level clients and then [06:35] working at humanmade which was largely [06:39] Europeanbased um but also just remote [06:41] first, much more remote first um with [06:44] people from like all all across all the [06:47] time zones of the world. Um and there is [06:51] there's an adjustment in expectations. [06:54] There's an adjustment in and not not [06:55] like expectations in in terms of like [06:57] the work itself, but like the the things [06:59] that you expect from a conversation, the [07:02] things you expect from an employer or an [07:04] employee employer employee relationship, [07:06] the things [07:06] >> and the things that are expected of you [07:08] as well. Yeah. [07:10] >> Yeah. [07:11] >> Yeah. And so I I thought that like and [07:13] one of the things uh that I appreciated [07:15] too about um particularly as you brought [07:17] that talk to Word Camp Canada was you [07:20] actually did research on some of the [07:22] Canadian uh sort of cultures and and [07:24] things that that different cultures [07:26] within Canada might bring to the table [07:28] as well. [07:29] >> Yeah. So so when I was exploring I mean [07:32] cultural algorithms is kind of a phrase [07:35] that got coined through the process of [07:38] me organizing this. It's not something [07:39] that you generally I think would go [07:42] searching and looking for and find a [07:44] whole lot of research on. So a lot of [07:45] the research and stuff that I was [07:46] looking at was what are the kind of [07:49] underlying things that happen in [07:51] different cultures. And the two that I [07:53] really spoke to was a Dutch one and then [07:55] one cuz I was up in you know north [07:58] northeast Canada. there's a an an [08:01] indigenous [08:02] uh people's group there that has [08:04] published a lot of information about how [08:06] they do things and they talked about the [08:09] seven generations [08:12] >> um approach to how they plan and and do [08:14] things and I and and what that is of [08:17] course when you you know even when you [08:18] hear it talked about like that is [08:20] thinking that far ahead what is the [08:22] impact of what I'm going to do going to [08:24] be on not just the generation behind me [08:26] but all of those to follow and planning [08:28] accordingly and if somebody is in your [08:30] workplace and that is the attitude that [08:32] they have, you're going to see their [08:34] output be slower. You're going to see [08:36] them be a lot more considered in the [08:37] course of a conversation. And so it's [08:40] important to me, we have this [08:42] expectation. Here's this company. We [08:44] have the we have an underlying culture [08:47] about how we work and a lot of that will [08:49] be driven what our by our company values [08:51] and the direction that we're going and [08:52] by the culture of the leaders that we [08:54] have in this group. um and and kind of [08:57] bringing people into that. We have this [08:59] expectation [09:00] that people will adjust themselves to [09:03] fit the culture that is and that that is [09:07] a natural expectation I think and I [09:09] certainly does happen. Certainly know [09:12] that for me the culture at humanmade has [09:14] wildly affected my expectations of [09:16] culture in other places um uh just [09:19] because it was such a transformative [09:22] workplace for me. So, but you know, when [09:26] you're looking and expecting people to [09:28] kind of, you know, I heard somebody [09:30] talking about the melting pot, you [09:31] expect everybody to come in and adjust [09:32] themselves and fit themselves to what [09:34] you're in, you lose some of the richness [09:39] and some of the opportunities for [09:41] innovation that [09:42] >> um having some different perspectives [09:46] and different approaches might actually [09:48] might actually bring. And so some of the [09:49] things that I talked about was when you [09:51] explore here are some ways to recognize [09:53] or examine kind of the different [09:55] cultures that are in your workplace, [09:58] here are some of the ways that that [09:59] might be useful to to to leverage. Um [10:04] >> Yeah. [10:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I and I I remember the [10:09] melting like asking the question or [10:11] making me making the observation um [10:15] during your talk or during the at the [10:16] end of the Q&A section. Um because [10:20] growing up in the United States um it's [10:23] almost part of the I think academic [10:26] curriculum to [10:29] conceptualize the United States as a [10:32] melting pot where we have lots of people [10:34] coming from different cultures and [10:36] whatever and we make the thing that is [10:38] America. We make this this project right [10:40] together. Um, and one of the the the [10:45] insights that [10:48] I got from your talk was just the idea [10:52] that or or the suggestion that maybe not [10:58] maybe maybe not that maybe maybe maybe [11:01] we don't melt all of those things in a [11:04] pot. Maybe we we celebrate those [11:07] differences and those voices because [11:09] they bring new things to the table. [11:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I can't remember if this [11:15] was something somebody said in the [11:16] context of that talk or in the Q&A that [11:18] we were talking about, but I was [11:20] thinking that melting pot thing really [11:22] really struck me and I was kind of my [11:25] thing is what if it was more like a [11:27] tapestry when you've got all these [11:28] different things that are weaving in [11:29] together and I kind of remember if [11:30] somebody said that I think somebody [11:32] might have said it something like that [11:33] but that sense of [11:35] >> we all bring something. Mhm. [11:37] >> We all recognize that what everybody [11:40] brings is valuable and that the picture [11:42] that we make with everything is much [11:45] more compelling than if we just smoke. I [11:47] mean, you remember when you were playing [11:48] with Play-Doh as a kid, right? You've [11:50] got all these different colors and you [11:51] put all these things together. And the [11:52] more that you mix them together, the [11:53] more ugly it gets. It's that that [11:56] >> yucky brown, [11:57] >> weird brown. Yeah. [11:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's like but when it [12:00] when they all when there is that [12:02] separation but they are all part of [12:04] something that's a whole the sculpture [12:05] or whatever it is that you're making. [12:07] It's so much more dynamic and [12:09] interesting and bright and valuable than [12:12] because you everybody still has those [12:15] pieces that are uniquely them. it it [12:19] hasn't just become this homogeneous lump [12:21] of [12:23] which is a you know I mean it's [12:25] interesting thing to talk about in the [12:26] current dynamic right where where [12:29] certainly when you all and all of the [12:31] things that we see outside of America [12:33] and what's going on there um it's you [12:36] know maybe politically dicey to talk [12:38] about but that sense of that homogene or [12:41] you know this other culture the white [12:43] culture is so much more um prime then [12:49] we're losing that sense of the melting [12:50] pot. It's like, oh no, we we absolutely [12:53] can't possibly and so that we need to [12:54] separate rather than and then bring [12:56] together and it's heartbreaking to [12:57] watch. [12:58] >> And now I'm visualizing this idea, this [13:02] concept of uh the United States as a [13:05] melting pot, as a ugly lump of brown [13:08] clay. [13:09] >> I'm so sorry. It wasn't real. It wasn't [13:11] my intention at all. No, I mean it's [13:13] it's because I I like it's just it's [13:16] interesting to think about in those in [13:17] in those different terms and even like [13:19] like you don't even have to like look at [13:21] at like this idea from like such a sort [13:24] of broad high level uh like perspective. [13:28] Um because it's it's most the time it's [13:33] the little things. It's the little [13:35] interactions that are are just things [13:38] that you don't necessarily expect or or [13:41] communication patterns that are are [13:43] different between people. And when you [13:46] are operating at a much more global [13:49] level um like I think you and I both [13:51] were at humanmade um then it it brings [13:55] these things into the focus more and you [13:58] need to learn how to communicate in a [14:01] way that is a little bit different. Is [14:03] that where you sort of uh started [14:06] getting this interest in this kind of [14:08] idea is is through our our work together [14:10] there. [14:11] >> Yeah, it was Sorry, I've got a cat here [14:14] who's trying I'm trying desperately to [14:16] make sure she doesn't stand on the [14:17] things that will turn off the computer. [14:18] Just sit on your bed and be cool. Um [14:22] yeah, it was the event that we were at [14:26] the the meetup that we were at where we [14:28] did the cultural it wasn't cultural [14:30] sensitivity training. It was implicit [14:32] bias. Implicit bias training. [14:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [14:34] Yeah. Yep. That was in Sri Lanka. Yep. [14:36] >> That was in Sri Lanka and I was [14:41] wildly confronted with my own racial [14:44] bias. Now I grew up in New Zealand. We [14:46] are multicultural mostly with um you [14:49] know New Zealand we call it uh the moldy [14:51] word in New Zealand is Pakiha. So the [14:53] white people are the Pakiha. So I am [14:56] Pakiha. And um [14:59] uh as people will know the the [15:01] indigenous culture in New Zealand or the [15:03] indigenous people in New Zealand are the [15:04] Mai and then but there are also a lot of [15:06] Pacifica people. So people from Samora [15:08] um the Cook Islands, Raratonga or or all [15:11] of these other places and and there is a [15:14] lot of work being done. They are by no [15:16] means perfect but there has been a lot [15:18] of work done there. But what I hadn't [15:20] realized is you know I have a boomer dad [15:23] still with us. Love him dearly. has some [15:25] what we would consider now very old [15:27] oldfashioned attitudes and I recognized [15:29] while we were in those sessions in Sri [15:31] Lanka was that I was racist that my [15:36] underlying attitudes and that my [15:38] underlying biases were very much uh [15:42] against [15:46] you know again my bias was against [15:49] people from India or people from the [15:51] islands or the the brown people were and [15:53] I was horrified. because that was not [15:55] what I wanted to think intellectually, [15:57] but this had been so and so deep in me. [15:59] And so having to learn and recognize [16:01] that and then do the work around [16:05] confronting that. And we all have [16:07] biases. We all have and so there's [16:09] interesting places that you can go if [16:11] you're interested to go, well, what are [16:12] my biases? You know, I grew up deeply [16:14] religious Christianity. So then of [16:17] course you come with some biases there [16:18] around the Korea community. Um, and so I [16:22] think in my mid to late late 40s and and [16:26] now here in my 50s, it's like there's [16:29] just been this radical transformation [16:31] kind of inside my head and heart about [16:34] the value of people. And I think that [16:37] some of that passion that I have for, [16:39] you know, DEI initiatives and for, you [16:41] know, this kind of work and going, well, [16:43] let's just examine that a little bit [16:44] more and trying to show people the value [16:48] of what other people and cultures bring [16:51] and and let's just not always assume [16:54] that because we have these attitudes in [16:56] our head that our attitudes are right. [16:58] And then so so a talk like what I [17:00] delivered uh at in Ottawa and then I've [17:03] done you know others as well along some [17:07] of these lines is all geared towards I [17:10] just want open people's eyes and go hang [17:12] on just a second confront the own that's [17:14] in your own eye and um and then and and [17:18] then you start to be able to see stuff [17:21] in other people you go oh and then be [17:23] able to say oh well that you bring that [17:25] to us you bring that into our workplace [17:27] place. Let's celebrate that. [17:30] >> And and when people are seen and [17:33] recognized not just because of how they [17:35] fit into this square, you know, or how [17:38] they fit into your environment or how [17:40] they fit into your culture, but uh [17:43] understand that in your culture, you [17:46] recognize and celebrate and value [17:48] theirs. [17:50] you know, engagement goes off the chart [17:52] because people are just like, "Oh, I'm [17:54] seen and I'm valued for me, not just [17:56] because of what I can do." [17:58] >> Yeah. that that particular implicit bias [18:01] workshop that we shared together like I [18:04] I also have very distinct memories of [18:07] that uh in particular um I the thing [18:12] that I took away from that the most that [18:15] I didn't expect because there are things [18:18] like going into it that like I [18:21] I'm a white male cispresenting [18:25] individual living in the western part of [18:28] the United states like I I understand my [18:30] privilege and I understand how I grew up [18:32] and where I grew up and and the [18:34] relationship and so I I expect certain [18:36] things about how I was raised and what [18:39] my culture was growing up and and my [18:41] experiences and whatever. Um and so [18:43] there's certain things that I expect to [18:45] find from something like that, right? [18:47] >> What I did not expect uh to find um in [18:51] myself was that I was so deeply and [18:57] honestly [18:58] still am deeply biased against gun [19:02] owners and gun ownership. [19:03] >> Oh wow. Yeah. [19:05] >> Like I Yeah. [19:07] >> It was It's like there's something I [19:10] don't know deep inside me that just like [19:12] it's like I I have an immediate picture [19:14] in my head and I I immediately have an [19:17] impression that I have over over people [19:20] and and an expectation. And then like a [19:23] friend of mine, a fellow developer, [19:25] somebody who I've known who I had known [19:27] for, you know, a couple years says like, [19:29] "Well, I own a gun." [19:31] >> And like, [19:32] >> and how confronting is that? You go, so [19:34] all of the noise in your head about what [19:36] these people are like, and you're like, [19:37] "But I know you, [19:38] >> right? [19:39] >> And you're not bad." [19:40] >> I know, right? I I I mean, I come from a [19:43] country where we have serious gun [19:45] control. And again, I don't want to turn [19:46] this into a political discussion about [19:48] that, but I got confronted with a very, [19:50] very similar experience. beautiful [19:52] people that I was staying with and I [19:54] still have this picture of him walking [19:55] up the stairs with his handgun in his [19:57] hand [19:58] >> and I'm like I had no idea but because I [20:02] would just come from a place where you [20:03] would never expect that but yes I [20:04] completely understand and you know that [20:07] uh that res and resonate with that sense [20:10] of oh I have these expectations about [20:14] what a person is going to be like based [20:16] on insert your bias here And that's amaz [20:22] it's confronting to actually have those [20:24] and realize oh hang on just a second [20:27] that is not a true picture of what [20:30] people are really like. I think I had [20:32] some interesting conversations cuz I did [20:34] that talk [20:35] >> and I flew from there back to Vancouver [20:37] and I was hanging out with friends again [20:39] former former humanmade colleagues [20:41] actually who are from India [20:43] >> and I was spending some time with them [20:45] and I'm and I was kind of unpacking the [20:47] talk and and what I'd come away from. I [20:49] also heard Jill Binder's talk which was [20:51] also really really touched on this as [20:54] well and I came away going oh Jules was [20:57] >> really impactful for me and I was [20:59] critiquing my own work against what Jill [21:02] had delivered [21:03] >> um not necessarily negatively but it was [21:05] like okay so I would change this and I [21:07] would go you know so I was kind of [21:08] critiquing myself but I sat down with [21:11] these friends and I was talking to them [21:13] and we and I said can we have some real [21:16] discussions about this because now I [21:18] have an opportunity and they were open [21:20] to talking about their experience. And [21:22] it was funny actually cuz we talked [21:23] about that event and that bias training [21:26] that we did and I said, "How was that [21:28] experience from you?" And they're like, [21:29] "We didn't learn anything because this [21:30] is the stuff that they see all the [21:32] time." But it was interesting for them [21:34] to see the white people in the room go [21:37] ah and actually start to get a sense [21:39] because I know that they had challenges [21:41] even in this, you know, [21:43] >> beautifully accepting workplace of uh [21:46] that we were in. But again, actually [21:49] watching everybody start to come to [21:52] grips with that, like I cannot recommend [21:55] companies, and if there's one thing [21:56] anybody takes away from this [21:58] conversation, I cannot recommend highly [22:00] enough putting your teams through [22:02] implicit bias training like this. [22:04] >> Yeah. Because that sense of and I know [22:07] empathy is a word that's getting a bad [22:09] rap at the moment, but that sense of [22:10] having an empathetic workforce that [22:14] goes, "Oh, somebody might be seeing [22:16] something different in this experience [22:18] or this problem than I am. Maybe their [22:23] what they bring to it might actually be [22:24] helpful rather than me expecting them to [22:26] shift to solve the problem the same way [22:28] as me." Like that was one of the things [22:29] that came away was how do people solve [22:32] problems differently? [22:35] Um I think one of the the other [22:37] algorithm you know in inverted commas is [22:39] the cultural algorithm that I've talked [22:41] about was this Dutch one where it talks [22:43] about the dikes and um I've even [22:48] forgotten the word the way that they [22:50] structure the landscape to make sure [22:52] that the water stays out right because [22:54] it's such lowing land and in order to do [22:56] that [22:58] >> teams uh towns and villages and local [23:02] people had to work together to do it [23:03] even they would normally be feudal [23:05] >> and and so this whole sense of consensus [23:08] building is something that lives very [23:09] very deeply in them. So the people [23:13] building you know who working within a [23:15] team to build consensus versus an [23:17] autocratic group that will be like well [23:18] the boss says this is the way we go [23:20] here's where we go like oh there's so [23:23] much richness in all of the things that [23:25] people bring to the work and being able [23:27] to see that and have your team be able [23:29] to see that and be able to leverage that [23:31] it's just p is so powerful. Yeah, [23:34] >> I just want everybody to do it. [23:35] >> I want my workplace to do it. [23:37] >> I mean, I I I agree and I I think that [23:41] it's important too because there's so [23:42] much there's also like data about like [23:45] how diverse teams uh are just more [23:47] productive. But to your point at the top [23:49] of the episode where like there's so [23:52] much pressure to conform to those [23:54] groups, it's like unless you are [23:55] intentionally [23:57] >> uh allowing for and respecting these [23:59] diverse voices that maybe you are making [24:02] hiring intentionally for those [24:05] >> diverse perspectives. If you are then [24:07] expecting them to just conform to the [24:08] rest of the company culture or whatever [24:10] into this melting pot, then you're not [24:13] really going to get the benefit uh the [24:16] full benefit of of having these these [24:18] disperate voices. [24:20] >> Yeah. Well, it's hiring for skill is [24:22] that people are or can they do the [24:23] skills or hiring for cultural fit? [24:26] >> What is c, you know, and there are a lot [24:29] >> cultural fit generally just means you're [24:30] hiring to be a homogeneous. [24:33] >> Exactly that. Exactly that. I I mean [24:36] it's I I think I understand there's a an [24:42] efficiency or a perceived efficiency of [24:44] well if we've got people we know we can [24:46] just drop them right in. They're going [24:47] to be able to do the work immediately. [24:49] They're going to be able to um you know [24:51] just kind of fit in and go with the [24:53] flow. [24:55] Uh there's an efficiency to that, right? [24:56] They just hit the ground running. We can [24:58] get more output more quickly. But it's [25:01] like what are you losing? What if there [25:04] was just that little bit more time to [25:06] actually be able to evaluate people and [25:07] what are they going to add? What are [25:09] some of our other problems? You know [25:11] what just having that kind of bigger [25:14] picture. But we live in a culture [25:17] generally in this kind of work culture [25:20] where we need to be efficient. We need [25:22] to be able to, you know, there's this [25:24] constant pressure to save on time, um, [25:27] be more billable, all those kinds of [25:29] things. And so efficiency I think is [25:31] what probably drives drives a lot of [25:34] that. [25:35] >> Yeah. [25:36] Um switching gears a little bit. Um you [25:39] are also involved in uh WP includes. Um [25:43] I am [25:44] >> for anyone who doesn't know which might [25:46] be a lot of people who are listening to [25:48] this or watching this. Uh what is WP [25:50] includes? [25:52] >> WP WPinccludes [25:54] uh which you can find at wpincludes.me [25:57] me is a mentoring initiative that is [26:01] geared towards pairing uh women leaders [26:05] with women who want to be in leadership [26:07] in WordPress companies. There's um if [26:11] anybody saw Siobhan Mckun and I talk at [26:15] Word Camp Europe in Torino, we did a [26:17] kind of Q&A conversation around the [26:20] results of a survey that we did to see [26:22] how many women are in leadership [26:24] particularly in the seauite in uh [26:27] WordPress companies and the numbers are [26:30] very low. They are disproportionately [26:32] low in comparison with sea suite in [26:35] other tech industries. We talked a [26:37] little bit about why that might be. A [26:39] lot of the early WordPress companies [26:41] were founded by men. Um and and and we [26:45] see a lot of those leaders are still [26:46] leading, you know, these large WordPress [26:48] companies, what it was WordPress now 20 [26:50] years or 15 years later, just as those [26:53] companies have grown. And so, uh, [26:56] Siobhan and Francesca Morano, uh, [26:59] started this initiative and then I kind [27:01] of managed to scooch in on their [27:04] coattails and I'm helping kind of [27:07] kind of manage. We're just about to go [27:09] into our third cohort of mentors and [27:12] mentees and it's kind of a we kind of [27:15] run it over a sort of three month period [27:18] where where the mentors and mentees just [27:20] get together and talk through. So, it's [27:21] almost this coaching element um of of [27:24] trying to get more and more women with [27:27] being able to focus and set their [27:28] intentions and their direction and be [27:31] supported in this community of women who [27:33] want to see more and more women uh [27:35] become leaders and be kind of released [27:39] into some of these areas that they might [27:41] not feel at this point that they are [27:43] ready for. So, it's just this really [27:45] great supportive group of women helping [27:47] women and and um uh non-binary or uh [27:53] Yeah. So, underrepresented. [27:56] >> Is it one mentor to one mentee that [27:58] you're working with at a time? [27:59] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, [28:02] >> and so it's so it's great you you get [28:04] start to build this relationship and and [28:07] certainly for me the relationships have [28:08] been ongoing after after the you know [28:12] the cohort officially ends. Yeah, I talk [28:15] a little bit more about that because I [28:16] from what I unders from what I have [28:18] heard um the the process of or the act [28:24] of mentoring or or being mentored um [28:29] like it is it's really not it's not a [28:31] top- down thing. It's really sort of a [28:33] collaboration and each person learns [28:35] learns from [28:36] >> from the experience. What has that [28:38] experience been like for you? [28:40] I I have loved it. Um, so I my uh I've [28:47] probably had more contact or ongoing [28:49] contact with with with one of my mentors [28:52] than the other, which is uh you know, [28:55] just the way that life goes, I would [28:57] say. I think what people bring to it [29:00] will certainly inform what they get out [29:02] of it. um and and what they contribute [29:05] and how that conversation goes I I think [29:08] certainly informs [29:10] the kind of results that you will get. I [29:13] think uh one of my mentees has uh [29:16] already shifted gears has has gone has [29:21] already taken on more leadership within [29:23] uh within her current role and is [29:25] ambitious for more. And so a lot of the [29:27] conversations have been around okay so [29:29] here's where I'm positioned now. What [29:31] are the things that I need to adopt and [29:33] grow into so that I'm ready when [29:35] opportunities come up and I can very [29:38] much see that those opportunities will [29:41] come up for her. She's uh she's amazing. [29:44] Um but for me personally uh I I think I [29:49] mean I think one of the things that I [29:50] learned when I was um in you know [29:53] leading the project managers at [29:54] humanmade for a while there um or [29:57] managing the project managers the [30:00] actually like like the stuff that sets [30:03] me on fire is that sense of coaching of [30:05] helping people see what they already [30:07] know and understand in themselves and [30:09] releasing that and then having seen [30:12] seeing them kind be able to fight the [30:15] impostor really and gain that confidence [30:17] that oh there's nothing actually [30:20] stopping me from going into greater [30:22] leadership here. It's my brain or it's [30:25] my attitude or it's the this impostor [30:27] that's [30:29] and being able to just kind of pull back [30:31] that curtain and it's all just a case of [30:34] asking the questions that help them see [30:35] that that it's like that so good. So, I [30:40] highly recommend anybody who has the [30:41] opportunity to sign up when the when the [30:43] form goes live for the next cohort. Um, [30:46] absolutely get yourselves in there if [30:47] that's the kind of thing that you're [30:49] wanting to do. I um we do a survey of [30:52] the mentors afterwards and do you want [30:55] to do this again? And it's usually a [30:56] pretty much a resounding yes because I [30:58] think the mentors get as much out of it [31:01] as well. Not just because we really want [31:03] to see this community, you know, see [31:05] that balance shift in a positive [31:08] direction, but also because it's such a [31:10] great experience to see people that [31:11] you've had input into um start to see [31:16] their value and start to get excited [31:18] about opportunities and start to take [31:21] opportunities. [31:22] I saw a thing recently. Um, you [31:27] referencing imposttor syndrome [31:30] >> made me remember this thing that I saw [31:32] recently that was talking about how the [31:36] concept of imposttor syndrome originates [31:40] from something that came during like [31:45] women's liberation movements and things [31:47] where like women were starting to get [31:49] more uh voice uh more power in in [31:54] various circles. [31:55] as as because [31:58] like the dominant male culture uh was [32:03] basically like finding reasons for [32:07] those things to not be true or [32:09] something. And so it it so it comes out [32:11] it has this like quasi scientific [32:13] medical sort of sounding name. Uh sounds [32:16] like a problem. Uh but but it it has [32:20] these roots in like the feminist [32:22] movement really. uh which I thought was [32:25] was was really interesting and not [32:27] something that I had encountered before. [32:29] >> So were they saying that the roots were [32:31] in push back against the feminist [32:33] movement? [32:34] >> Yes. Yes. [32:36] >> Yeah. [32:36] >> I'm not surprised. [32:37] >> Right. For sure. Right. Yeah. [32:40] >> But but it's interesting that like women [32:42] go, "Oh, I just have this terrible [32:43] problem with imposter syndrome." But it [32:46] without actually going, "Oh, I really [32:49] want to use a word that I shouldn't use [32:50] here, so I'm talking myself out of it." [32:52] but without going it's the patriarchy [32:55] that's actually put this problem in my [32:57] head at the moment and actually going [32:58] hang on let me just see this is actually [33:00] a non problem because this is something [33:03] that's imposed externally it's not you [33:05] know [33:05] >> yes [33:06] >> and so that you actually have to talk [33:08] yourself around and away from that sense [33:10] of that voice in your head which is that [33:12] we call the imposter and it's like hang [33:14] on this is societal expectations that [33:16] have been placed on me this is [33:18] absolutely nothing to do with you know I [33:21] belong wrong here cuz you know that's [33:23] what the imposttor is saying all the [33:24] time is or you're you're not quite ready [33:25] or you're not you know and it's like [33:27] actually [33:28] >> you you do and you are. [33:32] >> Yeah. and lean into that rather than the [33:35] other. And and I I mean again like I [33:40] last I checked am cis white male but [33:43] I've also experienced imposter syndrome [33:44] but the the idea that like that [33:46] experience like I I don't know that I [33:47] even would have considered [33:49] >> um that my experience of imposttor [33:51] syndrome would be distinctly different [33:54] and like separate from your experience [33:57] of imposter syndrome just because of [33:59] like what imposttor means to me based on [34:02] my privilege and all of the things that [34:04] go along with what this is is different [34:06] than all of the same things for for you. [34:09] >> Yeah, it's such an interesting it's [34:13] I mean there are so many avenues to [34:15] explore in all of these areas, right? [34:16] It's like [34:18] you you know we've talked about culture [34:20] and race and we've talked about um [34:24] gender and and the but this [34:29] Okay, where are you going? Okay, [34:32] just don't stand on the keyboard. Thank [34:34] you very much. Um, [34:37] it's all, [34:40] you know, it's the core thread through [34:42] all of these things is the othering, [34:44] right? is the [34:46] >> uh someone that is different from me, I [34:49] need to protect myself or my position [34:52] and or I uh and so that the all of these [34:56] areas where there is privilege that [34:59] whichever dynamic we are fighting [35:01] against or being resisted by comes down [35:05] to this. Oh, well, I've got something to [35:06] protect here and and others need to stay [35:10] away. And it's it's oh it's infuriating [35:15] because it's like if everybody could [35:17] just see just the value and that there [35:21] is enough. There is enough. I mean one [35:25] of the things that I absolutely love [35:26] about the WordPress community and it's [35:28] something I think my first word camp [35:31] was word camp goal coast in 2011. [35:35] So what's that 15 years ago? 14 years [35:37] ago. [35:39] Um, and [35:41] I I heard somebody casually say, "Isn't [35:44] it wild that here we all are competitors [35:48] effectively in an environment and it [35:51] doesn't feel like that at all?" And I [35:53] think that is one of the things that has [35:56] kind of h it's one of the threads that's [35:58] kind of pulled me into this and why so [36:00] many of my friends are here and why I've [36:02] pulled friends into the WordPress [36:04] community. And um cuz that sense of [36:10] we're all there's enough there's enough [36:13] in this community. There's enough. And I [36:16] think some I guess some of the dynamics [36:17] of the past 12 months have suggested [36:21] perhaps there isn't. And I'm like [36:24] but there is. [36:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. [36:26] >> There's enough. and this whole sense of, [36:29] you know, well, if I I'm I'm trying to [36:31] protect my corner and the way that I'm [36:35] going to do that is by [36:38] um [36:39] Yeah. is is is [36:42] exclusionary. [36:43] >> Mhm. [36:44] >> It's disappointing to me. [36:45] >> Yeah. [36:46] >> Yeah. uh when I flipped over to uh to [36:49] Blue Sky um as the place that I go other [36:53] than the thing the the platform formerly [36:56] known as as Twitter. [36:58] >> Uh one of my first [37:01] >> and I still don't know what they're [37:02] called, so I'm just going to call it a [37:04] blute. [37:06] Uh my first blute, one of my first [37:07] blutes was uh um equity does not mean [37:14] you don't like someone else is getting [37:16] your piece of the pie or a bigger piece [37:18] of the pie. Equity is saying, "Hey, [37:21] there's pie over here. Do you want [37:23] some?" [37:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [37:28] >> I wish more people could see that. [37:30] >> Yeah. Um [37:34] Yeah. uh that my brain I had a thing I [37:37] was going to say besides that but now [37:39] it's completely escaped but what I will [37:41] say oh no I I remember we were talking [37:42] about competitors you you're mentioning [37:44] that the WordPress community and and a [37:46] room full of competitors but it doesn't [37:47] feel that way one of the first uh guests [37:49] that were on this show was Roger uh who [37:53] is chief something or other head of [37:55] something or other at Kinsta um and I [37:58] work at Pantheon and ostensibly we are [38:00] like competitors [38:02] >> um and like this isn't a Pantheon show [38:04] or anything but like there was a little [38:06] bit of uh I felt trepidation from him [38:09] especially since it was like one of the [38:10] first episodes just like is it okay like [38:13] oh we even we invited that's what it was [38:15] like we invited him um we were at when [38:18] we were at Word Camp us uh we had a [38:20] video crew at our Pantheon booth and we [38:24] were doing these things called web [38:25] sessions uh which actually are starting [38:27] to go up on the internet now um where we [38:30] were interviewing people and and [38:31] basically asking what makes the web work [38:32] and I thought because I had just had a [38:35] recording with Roger uh on my podcast. [38:37] I'm like, he would be a great person. [38:39] He's here in the room. I can just go [38:40] over there and grab him and and sit him [38:41] down. Um and he's like, "Is is it okay [38:43] that I have a Kinsta shirt?" I'm like, [38:45] like, dude, we don't care. Like, we are [38:47] like this is not that's Yeah, there's [38:50] enough. Like the the people that are [38:52] interested in Kinsta might not be [38:53] interested in Pantheon, and the people [38:55] that are interested in Pantheon might [38:56] not be interested in Kinsta, and the [38:57] people that are interested in both might [38:58] be interested in both. And they want [38:59] they want to know what the best thing [39:01] out of both things is. Like that's [39:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. [39:04] >> Yeah. [39:06] >> Um it's interesting because the company [39:09] that I work for is a craft CMS shop. [39:12] >> So I left Humanmade uh and joined them [39:15] two and a half nearly three years ago. [39:17] And so that's been an interesting [39:19] experience is kind of looking at other [39:20] communities. It's very very different [39:22] community than WordPress. It's open [39:24] source but yet still very much um made [39:28] owned and operated by uh Pixel and Tonic [39:31] the company behind it. Um and the you [39:35] know people's attitudes around WordPress [39:38] is very different sometimes in the craft [39:40] community. Um [39:42] >> uh and and you know the the things that [39:45] make Craft Craft are different than the [39:47] things that make WordPress WordPress. [39:49] And there's been some tension around [39:50] that for me sometimes uh particularly [39:53] because I am still such an ardent [39:54] supporter and enthusiast for WordPress [39:57] but it's been um [40:00] I've I've have a client that has worked [40:03] with us had gone to WordPress and is [40:06] coming back to us not specifically to [40:08] craft but I'm actually starting to see [40:10] more WordPress [40:12] um uh websites in our portfolio. And so [40:17] I' I'm quietly loving the fact that that [40:21] we now we have, you know, I'm sure my [40:24] boss is probably not keen that I am [40:26] publicizing that there's more WordPress [40:27] in our in our portfolio because we are [40:29] such an ardent craft shop. But um it's [40:32] quite fun to be for me now to be able to [40:34] kind of jump back in to a little bit [40:37] more WordPress and be back in the back [40:38] end of WordPress other than just on my [40:40] own site which of course is still um you [40:43] know WordPress built but not published [40:46] to very often at all anymore. But um but [40:49] yeah it's it's that's been an [40:51] interesting dynamic is actually seeing [40:53] how other uh other CMS's work. I mean, [40:58] of course, for a lot of the case, they [40:59] all do the same thing. [41:01] >> Um, but but also seeing how other [41:04] communities work and um [41:06] >> and I actually just spent the last two [41:08] days in the Tessaturura community. Um, I [41:11] don't know if you're familiar with [41:12] Tessura. It's a software CRM [41:16] ticketing thing for the arts and culture [41:18] community. Interesting. [41:19] >> So, that's been interesting is is seeing [41:23] uh how other communities function. And I [41:26] won't lie, the Tessaturura conference, [41:27] there's a lot of content in there that [41:29] is not really touching me. I have a [41:30] client that is uses it and that's why I [41:33] needed to be there to kind of and so I [41:35] was there for some of the tech parts of [41:37] it. But it was really interesting being [41:39] in a room full of theater nerds who are [41:43] also and in some cases tech nerds as [41:46] well. And um yeah, so I think one of the [41:49] things that I really love is community [41:52] actually [41:53] >> and I'm not a super extroverted person. [41:55] I can function very very well and [41:58] certainly present uh with extraversion [42:00] but that for the two days I was getting [42:03] home at the end of the day and I'm like [42:04] oh I'm all peeled out. But what great [42:06] people like I spent an hour sitting over [42:08] lunch yesterday talking about musical [42:10] theater which anybody knows me knows [42:12] that that's something that I absolutely [42:15] adore. And so So yeah, um I'm not sure [42:18] where I was going with that other than [42:20] um there is that sense of uh enoughness [42:24] in other communities I think as well. [42:28] >> Yeah, I I I went to my first Drupal Con [42:32] this year and then I went to my first [42:33] Drupal camp this year as well. I went to [42:35] Drupal Well, uh I'll tell you. Uh Drupal [42:39] Con is is the big event. Um so there's [42:42] Drupal Con in Atlanta. Uh the tickets [42:44] were like a thousand bucks ahead. Um [42:47] it's it's it's the big industry event. [42:50] Um and so it's it's comparable in scale [42:55] and talk tracks and whatever to uh the [42:58] flagship word camps. So word camp US and [43:00] whatever. [43:01] >> Uh and Drupal camps are much much much [43:04] smaller. Um and those are the local [43:06] community things. Yeah. So that's more [43:08] like the your your local word camp [43:10] whatever. [43:11] >> Um [43:12] >> so I went to bad camp which is Bay Area [43:14] Drupal Camp. um which also has probably [43:17] the coolest uh Drupal camp name. Um [43:19] >> I'm like that's just one well that's [43:21] just one letter away from band camp. I [43:23] love that. [43:26] >> And I uh I was presenting at at Bad Camp [43:28] actually. Um and I went to to Drupal Con [43:32] in Atlanta um this last year. Um and I [43:36] it's very interesting being uh the [43:39] WordPresser in the room full of Drupal [43:41] people. Um, [43:43] >> but also [43:45] one of the things that that jumped out [43:48] to me immediately um at when I went to [43:51] Drupal Con was how much it didn't feel [43:55] different. Like it [43:57] >> it felt like like the and I I've said [44:00] this before on the show. Um, uh, one of [44:03] the first things that I I saw when I got [44:05] there was they had a a like a panel [44:08] thing with a bunch of different stickers [44:10] and one of the stickers, uh, is on the [44:12] website and it says, um, come for the [44:14] code, stay for the community. [44:16] >> Yeah. And that was part of that's part [44:19] of the inception process of how this [44:21] podcast came to be was just that that [44:23] idea and the fact that that like that [44:26] resonated so strongly to me [44:29] >> from a completely different perspective [44:31] like that that is the reason why I have [44:33] been in the WordPress community for as [44:35] long as I have been. [44:36] >> Exactly. Yeah. Same. and and so seeing [44:40] that oh the Drupal community also has [44:43] this thing and then al obviously over [44:44] the course of the week I I got to talk [44:46] to people and and have these [44:47] conversations like it it really is like [44:50] >> we are all just people and this is all [44:52] just software and at the end of the day [44:54] we're doing the same things and more [44:57] >> the stuff that endures is the people [44:58] right [44:59] >> yes yeah and and and the things that we [45:01] can learn from each other [45:03] >> um and yeah and I think that's kind of I [45:06] think that's kind of beautiful I I love [45:08] that. I think one of the great shames [45:10] for me that's kind of postco is that our [45:13] local community has really really [45:16] struggled. Our local WordPress community [45:18] Yeah. [45:19] >> has really really struggled and I was [45:20] talking to the tester or the group that [45:22] I was sitting with at the Tessy [45:24] conference yesterday [45:25] >> and was talking about so what are you [45:27] know their community. So I'm sitting [45:29] here going oh my goodness now I need to [45:30] get back into choir like I haven't sung [45:32] I came to Australia to sing and I [45:34] haven't sung really since I moved to [45:35] Melbourne. just about 13 years ago and [45:37] and I you know I'm sitting there with [45:40] all these people just buzzing with that [45:41] energy of I need to be doing more of [45:44] this and you know generally sit in a [45:46] tech conference and go yeah I really [45:47] need to be singing anyway apparently [45:49] testur has a choir um not in Melbourne [45:52] anyway the long story short is that [45:53] they're struggling with some of those [45:55] same things yes they had a testure [45:57] meetup group that is just struggled I [46:01] mean I think Melbourne has struggled we [46:02] were under lockdown for so long and I [46:04] think that has definitely impacted the [46:06] psyche of the [46:07] >> but also because so many more people are [46:09] remote, it's harder to get people out of [46:11] their houses. [46:12] >> Yeah. [46:12] >> To an event now. And I think that's one [46:15] of our certainly locally one of our [46:17] great challenges is to how do we that [46:20] up? [46:21] >> Um and part of it is also exhausted [46:23] leaders and not finding any kind of [46:25] rising leaders who are like, "Oh, I'll [46:27] take that on, right?" And and let's [46:29] let's go for it. So that's one of my [46:31] hopes that some will rise up in [46:34] Melbourne and go, "Yeah, I'm ready. [46:36] Let's do things." Because I will happily [46:38] go along, but I don't know how much [46:39] juice I've got to be [46:41] >> Yeah. [46:41] >> organizing meetups again. [46:42] >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Same. Same. [46:45] >> Yeah. [46:45] >> Well, thank you, D, for coming. Um, and [46:48] uh before we go, what uh where can [46:50] people find you on the internet? [46:52] >> They can find me at dal double teal.com. [46:57] They can find me on the wordpr.com on [46:59] blue sky. Uh they can find me at [47:03] wpincludes.me [47:05] or on the futureof team podcast that I [47:07] do with my friend from Canada, James [47:10] Duru. [47:12] >> Awesome. Well, uh again, thank you for [47:14] for joining me on on uh this podcast. Uh [47:18] go check out De's podcast. I definitely [47:20] want to listen to DE's podcast as well. [47:23] uh and [47:23] >> you talk about a lot of these similar [47:25] things, workplace, uh leadership, [47:27] management. Um so it's not there's no [47:29] code talk because I can't talk code. [47:32] It's been 15 years since I touched any. [47:35] >> I mean I figure there's enough there's [47:38] enough code tech podcasts out there that [47:41] that if you that's what you're looking [47:42] for, you can find it. [47:43] >> People people. Well, thanks Chris. It's [47:45] been absolutely lovely to be here. [47:47] >> Yeah. Uh it's been lovely to have you [47:48] on. And for everyone else who's watching [47:50] or listening to this in the future, uh [47:52] we'll see you on the internet.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jTpmbvPdg) --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Episode 16: Dee Teal - Cultural Algorithms and Inclusive Leadership ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Advocate for implicit bias training in workplace — proven transformative impact #diversity - [H2] Challenge hiring for "cultural fit" practices — promotes homogeneity over innovation #hiring - [H3] Support WP includes mentoring program — addresses gender leadership gap in WordPress #mentorship ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [WP includes](https://wpincludes.me) - [Future of Teams Podcast](MISSING) ## 📝 Summary - Dee Teal discusses "cultural algorithms" - unique approaches different cultures bring to workplace problem-solving - Implicit bias training proved transformative for recognizing racial and other biases in global remote teams - WP includes mentoring program addresses severe gender gap in WordPress leadership (disproportionately low compared to other tech) - "Melting pot" metaphor criticized in favor of "tapestry" model that celebrates distinct cultural contributions - WordPress community exemplifies collaborative abundance mindset despite technical competition ## 📖 Main Content Dee Teal, project manager and WordPress community veteran, explores how cultural diversity enhances workplace innovation through what she terms "cultural algorithms" - distinct problem-solving approaches rooted in cultural backgrounds. Her research identified examples like Dutch consensus-building traditions (developed from collaborative flood management) and Indigenous seven-generation planning principles that consider long-term impacts. The conversation centers on moving beyond "cultural fit" hiring toward celebrating diverse perspectives. Teal argues that expecting newcomers to conform to existing culture creates a "melting pot" effect that produces homogeneous results, losing the innovation potential that diversity offers. Instead, she advocates for a "tapestry" model where distinct contributions remain visible while contributing to a richer whole. Teal's involvement with WP includes addresses concerning gender representation in WordPress leadership, where women hold disproportionately fewer C-suite positions compared to other tech industries. The mentoring program pairs established women leaders with emerging talent through three-month cohorts focused on skill development and confidence building. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Background - Key idea: Dee Teal is a project manager and WP includes mentor from Melbourne, Australia - Evidence: "I'm a New Zealander who's now lived in Australia almost longer than I ever lived in New Zealand" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=150) — [H2] Cultural Identity and Relationships - Key idea: National identity differences create complex sibling-like rivalries - Evidence: "New Zealand attitude is that we will support New Zealand above all and then any other country playing Australia" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=345) — [H1] WordCamp Canada Talk on Cultural Algorithms - Key idea: Different cultures bring unique problem-solving approaches to workplaces - Evidence: "The algorithms that humans bring to the workplace... cultural algorithms that people bring" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=500) — [H2] Seven Generations Planning Example - Key idea: Indigenous planning considers impacts seven generations ahead, affecting work pace and deliberation - Evidence: "Thinking that far ahead... you're going to see their output be slower, more considered in conversation" #### ⏱️ [11:15](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=675) — [H1] Melting Pot vs Tapestry Metaphor - Key idea: Cultural integration should preserve distinct contributions rather than homogenizing - Evidence: "What if it was more like a tapestry when you've got all these different things weaving together" #### ⏱️ [14:30](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=870) — [H2] Play-Doh Analogy for Cultural Mixing - Key idea: Excessive cultural blending creates uninteresting uniformity - Evidence: "You put all these things together... the more you mix them, the more ugly it gets, that yucky brown" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1125) — [H1] Implicit Bias Training Impact - Key idea: Bias training in Sri Lanka revealed deep-seated racial prejudices despite intellectual opposition - Evidence: "I was racist... my underlying biases were very much against... the brown people... I was horrified" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1330) — [H2] Unexpected Gun Ownership Bias - Key idea: Chris discovered strong bias against gun owners during same training - Evidence: "I was so deeply biased against gun owners... I have an immediate picture and impression" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1540) — [H1] Dutch Consensus Building Culture - Key idea: Historical flood management required collaborative governance, creating consensus-building cultural algorithm - Evidence: "Teams, towns and villages had to work together... even they would normally be feudal" #### ⏱️ [28:55](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1735) — [H2] Hiring for Cultural Fit Problems - Key idea: Cultural fit hiring typically means hiring for homogeneity rather than complementary diversity - Evidence: "Cultural fit generally just means you're hiring to be homogeneous" #### ⏱️ [32:20](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=1940) — [H1] WP includes Mentoring Program - Key idea: Program addresses disproportionately low women leadership in WordPress companies - Evidence: "Numbers are very low... disproportionately low in comparison with C-suite in other tech industries" #### ⏱️ [35:45](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2145) — [H2] Mentoring Relationship Dynamics - Key idea: Mentoring creates bidirectional learning and ongoing relationships beyond formal programs - Evidence: "Relationships have been ongoing after the cohort officially ends... mentors get as much out of it as well" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2430) — [H1] Imposter Syndrome Origins - Key idea: Imposter syndrome concept has roots in pushback against feminist advancement - Evidence: "Originates from something during women's liberation movements... finding reasons for those things to not be true" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2715) — [H2] WordPress Community Abundance Mindset - Key idea: WordPress events foster collaboration despite technical competition between companies - Evidence: "Here we all are competitors effectively... it doesn't feel like that at all" #### ⏱️ [48:50](https://youtu.be/U2jTpmbvPdg?t=2930) — [H1] Cross-CMS Community Similarities - Key idea: Different technical communities share fundamental human-centered values - Evidence: "Come for the code, stay for the community... we are all just people and this is all just software" ## 📚 References - [WP includes Mentoring Program](https://wpincludes.me) - [Future of Teams Podcast](MISSING) - [Community and Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jTpmbvPdg) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Cultural backgrounds provide distinct problem-solving approaches that enhance workplace innovation when recognized and leveraged rather than suppressed - Implicit bias training reveals unconscious prejudices that limit team effectiveness and individual growth opportunities - Gender representation gaps in WordPress leadership require intentional mentoring programs to develop and support women advancing to executive roles ## 📰 Newsletter **Embracing Cultural Algorithms for WordPress Team Innovation** The WordPress community has always celebrated "come for the code, stay for the community," but are we fully leveraging the diverse perspectives our global contributors bring? Dee Teal's research on "cultural algorithms" reveals how different cultural backgrounds offer unique problem-solving approaches - from Indigenous seven-generation planning to Dutch consensus-building traditions. Instead of hiring for "cultural fit" (often code for homogeneity), WordPress teams can build "tapestries" where distinct voices enhance collective innovation. **Take Action:** - Advocate for implicit bias training in your WordPress organization - Challenge hiring practices that prioritize conformity over complementary diversity - Support initiatives like WP includes that address leadership representation gaps **Key Resources:** - [WP includes Mentoring](https://wpincludes.me) - Advancing women in WordPress leadership - [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/) - Community-driven education - [WordPress Diversity Initiatives](https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/community-deputy/other-event-formats/contributor-day/diversity-speaker-support/) - Supporting underrepresented voices The strength of WordPress lies not in our technical uniformity, but in the rich diversity of perspectives that make our community and code better. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Research cultural algorithms in global developer communities, create inclusive event formats - Education: Develop bias-aware documentation and tutorial strategies for diverse learning styles - Developer experience: Audit developer tools and processes for cultural assumptions and barriers - Community management: Implement mentoring programs connecting experienced developers with underrepresented newcomers #### Community - Maintainers: Create cultural competency guidelines for project leadership and contributor onboarding - Contributors: Establish first-contribution programs that celebrate diverse problem-solving approaches - Sponsors: Fund implicit bias training and diversity initiatives with transparent impact measurement - Ecosystem: Coordinate cross-community learning between WordPress, Drupal, and other CMS platforms #### WordPress - Core: Prioritize inclusive design patterns and cultural considerations in user interface development - Community: Expand WP includes model to other underrepresented groups, develop local chapter support - Training: Create lesson plans covering cultural competency and bias awareness for WordPress professionals - Marketing: Develop campaigns highlighting diverse global WordPress community contributions and perspectives #### The WPCC - Programs: Fund cultural competency training and bias awareness workshops for WordPress organizations - Projects: Support research on diversity impacts and cultural algorithm effectiveness in WordPress teams - Funding: Provide matched grants for organizations implementing inclusive leadership development programs ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Teams trained in implicit bias recognition demonstrate higher innovation rates and employee satisfaction than untrained control groups - Organizations using "cultural tapestry" hiring models achieve better problem-solving outcomes than those prioritizing cultural fit - Mentoring programs addressing specific representation gaps produce measurable increases in leadership diversity within 18-month timeframes - Cultural algorithm awareness training reduces workplace conflict and improves cross-cultural team performance ### 📊 Methodology - Longitudinal study comparing innovation metrics between bias-trained and control teams across WordPress agencies - A/B testing of hiring practices measuring problem-solving effectiveness and team satisfaction outcomes - Cohort tracking of WP includes participants measuring career advancement and leadership role attainment ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress companies systematically identify and leverage cultural algorithms within existing teams? - What specific metrics best measure the ROI of diversity and inclusion initiatives in technical organizations? - How do cultural algorithms manifest differently in remote-first versus in-person WordPress development environments? ### 🔮 Future Research - Mapping cultural problem-solving patterns across global WordPress contributor communities - Developing assessment tools for identifying cultural algorithms during hiring and team formation - Creating frameworks for translating cultural competency research into practical WordPress organization policies ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress teams need structured approaches to identify and celebrate diverse problem-solving styles rather than defaulting to cultural conformity - Policy: Hiring practices requiring "cultural fit" may violate diversity goals and should be replaced with complementary skill and perspective assessment - Education: WordPress training programs should incorporate cultural competency and bias awareness alongside technical skill development - Funding: Investment in diversity initiatives requires long-term commitment and measurement frameworks to demonstrate community-wide impact ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (complex workplace psychology and cultural concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Metaphorical examples (tapestry vs melting pot, Play-Doh color mixing) - Improve: Cultural algorithm flowcharts, bias training impact visualization, mentorship program structure diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio with conversational exploration of concepts - Improve: Key quote compilation audio, bias training exercise examples #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of cultural algorithms, extensive analogies and real-world examples - Improve: Glossary of diversity terminology, comparative cultural practice explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable mentoring program structure, step-by-step bias recognition process - Improve: Interactive cultural algorithm assessment tools, hands-on bias training exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between diversity and innovation outcomes - Improve: Quantitative data on WordPress leadership demographics, ROI metrics for inclusion initiatives #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community mentoring program model, collaborative problem-solving examples - Improve: Peer discussion guides, cross-cultural team building frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-reflection prompts about personal biases and cultural assumptions - Improve: Individual assessment worksheets, private bias examination tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem metaphors for community health and diversity - Improve: Cultural algorithm connections to environmental adaptation, community sustainability frameworks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive section labels - Improve: Alt text for cultural metaphor visualizations, ARIA labels for interactive elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard web navigation patterns - Improve: Skip links to key sections, logical tab order through action items #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text contrast ratios - Improve: High contrast mode for detailed cultural algorithm diagrams #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design supporting zoom - Improve: Prevent clipping of complex metaphor explanations at higher magnifications #### Media and captions - Present: Full podcast transcript provided - Improve: Chapter markers for key concept sections, downloadable transcript with timestamps #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic form accessibility - Improve: Inline validation for cultural competency assessment tools ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global perspectives from New Zealand, Australia, Canada, US, Sri Lanka, India, Netherlands - Improve: Additional Indigenous voices, more diverse cultural algorithm examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of bias and privilege, defined technical terms - Improve: Plain language alternatives for academic concepts, avoid assumption of workplace privilege #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section structure, consistent formatting - Improve: Content warnings for bias discussions, alternative formats for complex metaphors #### Representation - Present: Women's voices in leadership discussion, acknowledgment of various identity intersections - Improve: More non-binary and transgender perspectives, diverse professional backgrounds #### Psychological safety - Present: Vulnerable sharing about bias recognition, supportive community framing - Improve: Resources for processing bias awareness, trauma- --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jTpmbvPdg)* **[00:13]** [music] Welcome to Community and Code the podcast where we talk to the human beings behind the commits. I am here today with D Teal. She is a project manager. She has been in the WordPress ecosystem for a long time but not now. And uh you are one of the mentors involved in WP includes which we can talk about. Uh I'll let you uh introduce yourself more fully but welcome to the show D. >> Thank you Chris. It's lovely to be here. Hi folks. I'm D. I am coming at you live **[00:45]** from well not live probably from Melbourne. Melbourne, Australia. I'm a New Zealander who's now lived in Australia almost longer than I ever lived in New Zealand. And uh yeah, I love the WordPress community. As Chris said, I'm no longer actually actively working in it. Though to be fair, I've just landed a client that has WordPress. Um uh but I have stayed very close to it largely because most of my friends are still there. So um and you never know, maybe one day I'll be back. So I'm keeping close just to make sure. **[01:15]** [snorts] >> So I think the question everyone is is definitely dying to to hear the answer to is what is the difference between a New Zealander and an Australian? Oh man, that is a fraught fraught question. This you might as well ask. >> That's why I brought it here. >> You might as well ask what's the difference between a Canadian and American. >> Oo yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean I there's things I could name for sure [laughter] like you know socialized healthcare for one and >> well well yes. Well I mean we both New Zealand and Australia both both have **[01:45]** that uh have that in our favor. So there are some stark differences perhaps between and austral because I would put us I as a New Zealander would probably say that the analogy would be I would liken it Australia more to America in that scenario not because Australia is like America but in terms of the >> personality maybe I'm going to get so much clap [laughter] >> for saying these things. >> I'm sure there are no Australians that listen to this show. I'm [laughter] **[02:15]** losing H no. Um we and I guess it's similar to the relationship you see that kind of big brother or not even big brother but that sibling type rivalry. I mean we I think we uh one of the I mean New Zealand is a a rugby union loving nation. Uh the kind of everybody in New Zealand lives and breathes what goes on in the rugby and very little else. And um and I think our attitude is that we will support **[02:46]** uh New Zealand above all and then any other country playing Australia, you know. [laughter] So so that's kind of a little bit indicative of of how people feel. >> Um well, we so we know each other uh from a long time ago when we both worked at Humanade, which is a WordPress agency. Uh and we work together a lot in that context. Um >> and uh I mean, I have always really enjoyed the few opportunities that we have had to uh see each other in person **[03:19]** because it's quite a distance between where you live and where I live and where things are are often uh sort of organized and and and people gather. Yeah. Um but there have been a few uh a few occasions. Uh most recently though, we were both in Ottawa for Word Camp Canada. um talk about uh the talk that you gave at Word Camp Canada. >> Uh so I am very very interested in the dynamics **[03:49]** and relationships um about people working together. Um so the I'm going to struggle actually I should have actually pulled it up because I'm going to struggle to remember the title. It's kind of a convoluted title, but I was was talking about the algorithms that humans bring to the workplace. Uh less so than the algorithms that we most commonly cultural algorithms. Yeah. The hidden innovation multiplier I think was was what the rest of that **[04:21]** >> something was. Well, it it is really pretentious and it's and it was sneaky because I read the brief from the organizers to say this is what we wanted to talk about and I couldn't see the because innovation was was >> a primary driver right of of the conversations that they were wanting to have. And so this was a carefully crafted title to cut through the selection process and it worked. And so, but the whole the whole theme of **[04:53]** it was that sense of particularly in this world that we work in that is >> um much more remote, much more virtual environments that gives you access to a much greater diversity of cultural experience and cultural algorithms that people bring to the workplace. And so it was kind of a bit of a research examination to explore what that actually looked like and what that actually might mean on the on the you on the face of people actually working **[05:24]** together >> because one of the Yeah, it was really interesting to me to go well I've got people who I'm in uh you know Australia, Asia Pacific and so we have people working from between Australia and New Zealand which is a you know a result of colonialism and and So, a dominant white culture by and large and then other countries uh working alongside us are working that we have access to that, you know, there's a lot of workplaces that are having to navigate. Okay. What does that **[05:55]** look like when we've got all of these different cultures working together? >> Yeah. And I and maybe I warmed up uh that particular subject a little bit more uh accidentally than I had intended to by even just talking about the the difference of of New Zealand and Australia and the difference between Canada and the US because >> um >> I I definitely remember the I wouldn't say it's it it's necessarily culture shock, but it's definitely a cultural adjustment um that I went through transitioning from working at a a **[06:28]** US-based agency WebDev Studios, WordPress agency, does a lot of big, you know, enterprise level clients and then working at humanmade which was largely Europeanbased um but also just remote first, much more remote first um with people from like all all across all the time zones of the world. Um and there is there's an adjustment in expectations. There's an adjustment in and not not like expectations in in terms of like the work itself, but like the the things **[06:59]** that you expect from a conversation, the things you expect from an employer or an employee employer employee relationship, the things >> and the things that are expected of you as well. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so I I thought that like and one of the things uh that I appreciated too about um particularly as you brought that talk to Word Camp Canada was you actually did research on some of the Canadian uh sort of cultures and and things that that different cultures within Canada might bring to the table as well. >> Yeah. So so when I was exploring I mean **[07:32]** cultural algorithms is kind of a phrase that got coined through the process of me organizing this. It's not something that you generally I think would go searching and looking for and find a whole lot of research on. So a lot of the research and stuff that I was looking at was what are the kind of underlying things that happen in different cultures. And the two that I really spoke to was a Dutch one and then one cuz I was up in you know north northeast Canada. there's a an an indigenous **[08:02]** uh people's group there that has published a lot of information about how they do things and they talked about the seven generations >> um approach to how they plan and and do things and I and and what that is of course when you you know even when you hear it talked about like that is thinking that far ahead what is the impact of what I'm going to do going to be on not just the generation behind me but all of those to follow and planning accordingly and if somebody is in your workplace and that is the attitude that they have, you're going to see their **[08:34]** output be slower. You're going to see them be a lot more considered in the course of a conversation. And so it's important to me, we have this expectation. Here's this company. We have the we have an underlying culture about how we work and a lot of that will be driven what our by our company values and the direction that we're going and by the culture of the leaders that we have in this group. um and and kind of bringing people into that. We have this expectation that people will adjust themselves to fit the culture that is and that that is **[09:07]** a natural expectation I think and I certainly does happen. Certainly know that for me the culture at humanmade has wildly affected my expectations of culture in other places um uh just because it was such a transformative workplace for me. So, but you know, when you're looking and expecting people to kind of, you know, I heard somebody talking about the melting pot, you expect everybody to come in and adjust themselves and fit themselves to what you're in, you lose some of the richness **[09:39]** and some of the opportunities for innovation that >> um having some different perspectives and different approaches might actually might actually bring. And so some of the things that I talked about was when you explore here are some ways to recognize or examine kind of the different cultures that are in your workplace, here are some of the ways that that might be useful to to to leverage. Um >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I and I I remember the **[10:09]** melting like asking the question or making me making the observation um during your talk or during the at the end of the Q&A section. Um because growing up in the United States um it's almost part of the I think academic curriculum to conceptualize the United States as a melting pot where we have lots of people coming from different cultures and whatever and we make the thing that is America. We make this this project right **[10:40]** together. Um, and one of the the the insights that I got from your talk was just the idea that or or the suggestion that maybe not maybe maybe not that maybe maybe maybe we don't melt all of those things in a pot. Maybe we we celebrate those differences and those voices because they bring new things to the table. **[11:12]** >> Yeah. Yeah. I I can't remember if this was something somebody said in the context of that talk or in the Q&A that we were talking about, but I was thinking that melting pot thing really really struck me and I was kind of my thing is what if it was more like a tapestry when you've got all these different things that are weaving in together and I kind of remember if somebody said that I think somebody might have said it something like that but that sense of >> we all bring something. Mhm. >> We all recognize that what everybody brings is valuable and that the picture that we make with everything is much **[11:45]** more compelling than if we just smoke. I mean, you remember when you were playing with Play-Doh as a kid, right? You've got all these different colors and you put all these things together. And the more that you mix them together, the more ugly it gets. It's that that >> yucky brown, >> weird brown. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's like but when it when they all when there is that separation but they are all part of something that's a whole the sculpture or whatever it is that you're making. It's so much more dynamic and interesting and bright and valuable than because you everybody still has those **[12:15]** pieces that are uniquely them. it it hasn't just become this homogeneous lump of which is a you know I mean it's interesting thing to talk about in the current dynamic right where where certainly when you all and all of the things that we see outside of America and what's going on there um it's you know maybe politically dicey to talk about but that sense of that homogene or you know this other culture the white culture is so much more um prime then **[12:49]** we're losing that sense of the melting pot. It's like, oh no, we we absolutely can't possibly and so that we need to separate rather than and then bring together and it's heartbreaking to watch. >> And now I'm visualizing this idea, this concept of uh the United States as a melting pot, as a ugly lump of brown clay. [laughter] >> I'm so sorry. It wasn't real. It wasn't my intention at all. No, I mean it's it's because I I like it's just it's interesting to think about in those in in those different terms and even like **[13:19]** like you don't even have to like look at at like this idea from like such a sort of broad high level uh like perspective. Um because it's it's most the time it's the little things. It's the little interactions that are are just things that you don't necessarily expect or or communication patterns that are are different between people. And when you are operating at a much more global level um like I think you and I both **[13:51]** were at humanmade um then it it brings these things into the focus more and you need to learn how to communicate in a way that is a little bit different. Is that where you sort of uh started getting this interest in this kind of idea is is through our our work together there. >> Yeah, it was Sorry, I've got a cat here who's trying I'm trying desperately to make sure she doesn't stand on the things that will turn off the computer. Just sit on your bed and be cool. Um **[14:22]** yeah, it was the event that we were at the the meetup that we were at where we did the cultural it wasn't cultural sensitivity training. It was implicit bias. Implicit bias training. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That was in Sri Lanka. Yep. >> That was in Sri Lanka and I was wildly confronted with my own racial bias. Now I grew up in New Zealand. We are multicultural mostly with um you know New Zealand we call it uh the moldy word in New Zealand is Pakiha. So the **[14:53]** white people are the Pakiha. So I am Pakiha. And um uh as people will know the the indigenous culture in New Zealand or the indigenous people in New Zealand are the Mai and then but there are also a lot of Pacifica people. So people from Samora um the Cook Islands, Raratonga or or all of these other places and and there is a lot of work being done. They are [clears throat] by no means perfect but there has been a lot of work done there. But what I hadn't realized is you know I have a boomer dad still with us. Love **[15:24]** him dearly. has some what we would consider now very old oldfashioned attitudes and I recognized while we were in those sessions in Sri Lanka was that I was racist that my underlying attitudes and that my underlying biases were very much uh against you know again my bias was against people from India or people from the islands or the the brown people were and I was horrified. because that was not **[15:55]** what I wanted to think intellectually, but this had been so and so deep in me. And so having to learn and recognize that and then do the work around confronting that. And we all have biases. We all have and so there's interesting places that you can go if you're interested to go, well, what are my biases? You know, I grew up deeply religious Christianity. So then of course you come with some biases there around the Korea community. Um, and so I think in my mid to late late 40s and and **[16:26]** now here in my 50s, it's like there's just been this radical transformation kind of inside my head and heart about the value of people. And I think that some of that passion that I have for, you know, DEI initiatives and for, you know, this kind of work and going, well, let's just examine that a little bit more and trying to show people the value of what other people and cultures bring and and let's just not always assume that because we have these attitudes in our head that our attitudes are right. **[16:58]** And then so so a talk like what I delivered uh at in Ottawa and then I've done you know others as well along some of these lines is all geared towards I just want open people's eyes and go hang on just a second confront the own that's in your own eye and um and then and and then you start to be able to see stuff in other people you go oh and then be able to say oh well that you bring that to us you bring that into our workplace place. Let's celebrate that. **[17:30]** >> And and when people are seen and recognized not just because of how they fit into this square, you know, or how they fit into your environment or how they fit into your culture, but uh understand that in your culture, you recognize and celebrate and value theirs. you know, engagement goes off the chart because people are just like, "Oh, I'm seen and I'm valued for me, not just because of what I can do." >> Yeah. that that particular implicit bias **[18:01]** workshop that we shared together like I I also have very distinct memories of that uh in particular um I the thing that I took away from that the most that I didn't expect because there are things like going into it that like I I'm a white male cispresenting individual living in the western part of the United states like I I understand my privilege and I understand how I grew up **[18:32]** and where I grew up and and the relationship and so I I expect certain things about how I was raised and what my culture was growing up and and my experiences and whatever. Um and so there's certain things that I expect to find from something like that, right? >> What I did not expect uh to find um in myself was that I was so deeply and honestly still am deeply biased against gun owners and gun ownership. **[19:03]** >> Oh wow. Yeah. >> Like I Yeah. >> It was It's like there's something I don't know deep inside me that just like it's like I I have an immediate picture in my head and I I immediately have an impression that I have over over people and and an expectation. And then like a friend of mine, a fellow developer, somebody who I've known who I had known for, you know, a couple years says like, "Well, I own a gun." >> And like, >> and how confronting is that? You go, so **[19:34]** all of the noise in your head about what these people are like, and you're like, "But I know you, >> right? >> And you're not bad." [laughter] >> I know, right? I I I mean, I come from a country where we have serious gun control. And again, I don't want to turn this into a political discussion about that, but I got confronted with a very, very similar experience. beautiful people that I was staying with and I still have this picture of him walking up the stairs with his handgun in his hand >> and I'm like I had no idea but because I would just come from a place where you would never expect that but yes I **[20:04]** completely understand and you know that uh that res and resonate with that sense of oh I have these expectations about what a person is going to be like based on insert your bias here And that's amaz it's confronting to actually have those and realize oh hang on just a second that is not a true picture of what people are really like. I think I had some interesting conversations cuz I did that talk **[20:35]** >> and I flew from there back to Vancouver and I was hanging out with friends again former former humanmade colleagues actually who are from India >> and I was spending some time with them and I'm and I was kind of unpacking the talk and and what I'd come away from. I also heard Jill Binder's talk which was also really really touched on this as well and I came away going oh Jules was >> really impactful for me and I was critiquing my own work against what Jill had delivered >> um not necessarily negatively but it was **[21:05]** like okay so I would change this and I would go you know so I was kind of critiquing myself but I sat down with these friends and I was talking to them and we and I said can we have some real discussions about this because now I have an opportunity and they were open to talking about their experience. And it was funny actually cuz we talked about that event and that bias training that we did and I said, "How was that experience from you?" And they're like, "We didn't learn anything because this is the stuff that they see all the time." But it was interesting for them to see the white people in the room go **[21:37]** ah and actually start to get a sense because I know that they had challenges even in this, you know, >> beautifully accepting workplace of uh that we were in. But again, actually watching everybody start to come to grips with that, like I cannot recommend companies, and if there's one thing anybody takes away from this conversation, I cannot recommend highly enough putting your teams through implicit bias training like this. >> Yeah. Because that sense of and I know **[22:07]** empathy is a word that's getting a bad rap at the moment, but that sense of having an empathetic workforce that goes, "Oh, somebody might be seeing something different in this experience or this problem than I am. Maybe their what they bring to it might actually be helpful rather than me expecting them to shift to solve the problem the same way as me." Like that was one of the things that came away was how do people solve problems differently? Um I think one of the the other algorithm you know in inverted commas is **[22:39]** the cultural algorithm that I've talked about was this Dutch one where it talks about the dikes and um I've even forgotten the word the way that they structure the landscape to make sure that the water stays out right because it's such lowing land and in order to do that >> teams uh towns and villages and local people had to work together to do it even they would normally be feudal >> and [snorts] and so this whole sense of consensus building is something that lives very very deeply in them. So the **[23:13]** people building you know who working within a team to build consensus versus an autocratic group that will be like well the boss says this is the way we go here's where we go like oh there's so much richness in all of the things that people bring to the work and being able to see that and have your team be able to see that and be able to leverage that it's just p is so powerful. Yeah, >> I just want everybody to do it. >> I want my workplace to do [laughter] it. >> I mean, I I I agree and I I think that it's important too because there's so much there's also like data about like **[23:45]** how diverse teams uh are just more productive. But to your point at the top of the episode where like there's so much pressure to conform to those groups, it's like unless you are intentionally >> uh allowing for and respecting these diverse voices that maybe you are making hiring intentionally for those >> diverse perspectives. If you are then expecting them to just conform to the rest of the company culture or whatever into this melting pot, then you're not really going to get the benefit uh the **[24:16]** full benefit of of having these these disperate voices. >> Yeah. Well, it's hiring for skill is that people are or can they do the skills or hiring for cultural fit? >> What is c, you know, and there are a lot >> cultural fit generally just means you're hiring to be a homogeneous. >> Exactly that. Exactly that. I I mean it's I I [snorts] think I understand there's a an efficiency or a perceived efficiency of well if we've got people we know we can just drop them right in. They're going **[24:47]** to be able to do the work immediately. They're going to be able to um you know just kind of fit in and go with the flow. Uh there's an efficiency to that, right? They just hit the ground running. We can get more output more quickly. But it's like what are you losing? What if there was just that little bit more time to actually be able to evaluate people and what are they going to add? What are some of our other problems? You know what just having that kind of bigger picture. But we live in a culture **[25:17]** generally in this kind of work culture where we need to be efficient. We need to be able to, you know, there's this constant pressure to save on time, um, be more billable, all those kinds of things. And so efficiency I think is what probably drives drives a lot of that. >> Yeah. Um switching gears a little bit. Um you are also involved in uh WP includes. Um I am >> for anyone who doesn't know which might be a lot of people who are listening to **[25:48]** this or watching this. Uh what is WP includes? >> WP WPinccludes uh which you can find at wpincludes.me me is a mentoring initiative that is geared towards pairing uh women leaders with women who want to be in leadership in WordPress companies. There's um if anybody saw Siobhan Mckun and I talk at Word Camp Europe in Torino, we did a kind of Q&A conversation around the **[26:20]** results of a survey that we did to see how many women are in leadership particularly in the seauite in uh WordPress companies and the numbers are very low. They are disproportionately low in comparison with sea suite in other tech industries. We talked a little bit about why that might be. A lot of the early WordPress companies were founded by men. Um and and and we see a lot of those leaders are still leading, you know, these large WordPress companies, what it was WordPress now 20 **[26:50]** years or 15 years later, just as those companies have grown. And so, uh, Siobhan and Francesca Morano, uh, started this initiative and then I kind of managed to scooch in on their coattails and I'm helping kind of [cough] kind of manage. We're just about to go into our third cohort of mentors and mentees and it's kind of a we kind of run it over a sort of three month period where where the mentors and mentees just get together and talk through. So, it's **[27:21]** almost this coaching element um of of trying to get more and more women with being able to focus and set their intentions and their direction and be supported in this community of women who want to see more and more women uh become leaders and be kind of released into some of these areas that they might not feel at this point that they are ready for. So, it's just this really great supportive group of women helping women and and um uh non-binary or uh **[27:53]** Yeah. So, underrepresented. >> Is it one mentor to one mentee that you're working with at a time? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> and so it's so it's great you you get start to build this relationship and and certainly for me the relationships have been ongoing after after the you know the cohort officially ends. Yeah, I talk a little bit more about that because I from what I unders from what I have heard um the the process of or the act **[28:24]** of mentoring or or being mentored um like it is it's really not it's not a top- down thing. It's really sort of a collaboration and each person learns learns from >> from the experience. What has that experience been like for you? I I have loved it. Um, so I my uh I've probably had more contact or ongoing contact with with with one of my mentors than the other, which is uh you know, **[28:55]** just the way that life goes, I would say. I think what people bring to it will certainly inform what they get out of it. um and and what they contribute and how that conversation goes I I think certainly informs the kind of results that you will get. I think uh one of my mentees has uh already shifted gears has has gone has already taken on more leadership within uh within her current role and is ambitious for more. And so a lot of the **[29:27]** conversations have been around okay so here's where I'm positioned now. What are the things that I need to adopt and grow into so that I'm ready when opportunities come up and I can very much see that those opportunities will come up for her. She's uh she's amazing. Um but for me personally uh I I think I mean I think one of the things that I learned when I was um in you know leading the project managers at humanmade for a while there um or managing the project managers the **[30:00]** actually like like the stuff that sets me on fire is that sense of coaching of helping people see what they already know and understand in themselves and releasing that and then having seen seeing them kind be able to fight the impostor really and gain that confidence that oh there's nothing actually stopping me from going into greater leadership here. It's my brain or it's my attitude or it's the this impostor that's and being able to just kind of pull back **[30:31]** that curtain and it's all just a case of asking the questions that help them see that that it's like that so good. So, I highly recommend anybody who has the opportunity to sign up when the when the form goes live for the next cohort. Um, absolutely get yourselves in there if that's the kind of thing that you're wanting to do. I um we do a survey of the mentors afterwards and do you want to do this again? And it's usually a pretty much a resounding yes because I think the mentors get as much out of it as well. Not just because we really want **[31:03]** to see this community, you know, see that balance shift in a positive direction, but also because it's such a great experience to see people that you've had input into um start to see their value and start to get excited about opportunities and start to take opportunities. I saw a thing recently. Um, you referencing imposttor syndrome >> made me remember this thing that I saw recently that was talking about how the **[31:36]** concept of imposttor syndrome originates from something that came during like women's liberation movements and things where like women were starting to get more uh voice uh more power in in various circles. as as because like the dominant male culture uh was basically like finding reasons for **[32:07]** those things to not be true or something. And so it it so it comes out it has this like quasi scientific medical sort of sounding name. Uh sounds like a problem. Uh but but it it has these roots in like the feminist movement really. uh which I thought was was was really interesting and not something that I had encountered before. >> So were they saying that the roots were in push back against the feminist movement? >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> I'm not surprised. **[32:37]** >> Right. For sure. Right. Yeah. >> But but it's interesting that like women go, "Oh, I just have this terrible problem with imposter syndrome." But it without actually going, "Oh, I really want to use a word that I shouldn't use here, so I'm talking myself out of it." but without going it's [clears throat] the patriarchy that's actually put this problem in my head at the moment and actually going hang on let me just see this is actually a non problem because this is something that's imposed externally it's not you know >> yes >> and so that you actually have to talk **[33:08]** yourself around and away from that sense of that voice in your head which is that we call the imposter and it's like hang on this is societal expectations that have been placed on me this is absolutely nothing to do with you know I belong wrong here cuz you know that's what the imposttor is saying all the time is or you're you're not quite ready or you're not you know and it's like actually >> you you do and you are. >> Yeah. and lean into that rather than the other. And and I I mean again like I **[33:40]** last I checked am cis white male but I've also experienced imposter syndrome but the the idea that like that experience like I I don't know that I even would have considered >> um that my experience of imposttor syndrome would be distinctly different and like separate from your experience of imposter syndrome just because of like [snorts] what imposttor means to me based on my privilege and all of the things that go along with what this is is different than all of the same things for for you. >> Yeah, it's such an interesting it's **[34:13]** I mean there are so many avenues to explore in all of these areas, right? It's like you you know we've talked about culture and race and we've talked about um gender and and the but this Okay, where are you going? Okay, just don't stand on the keyboard. Thank you very much. Um, it's all, you know, it's the core thread through all of these things is the othering, **[34:44]** right? is the >> uh someone that is different from me, I need to protect myself or my position and or I uh and so that the all of these areas where there is privilege that whichever dynamic we are fighting against or being resisted by comes down to this. Oh, well, I've got something to protect here and and others need to stay away. And it's it's oh it's infuriating **[35:15]** because it's like if everybody could just see just the value and that there is enough. There is enough. I mean one of the things that I absolutely love about the WordPress community and it's something I think my first word camp was word camp goal coast in 2011. So what's that 15 years ago? 14 years ago. Um, and I I heard somebody casually say, "Isn't it wild that here we all are competitors **[35:48]** effectively in an environment and it doesn't feel like that at all?" And I think that is one of the things that has kind of h it's one of the threads that's kind of pulled me into this and why so many of my friends are here and why I've pulled friends into the WordPress community. And um cuz that sense of we're all there's enough there's enough in this community. There's enough. And I think some I guess some of the dynamics of the past 12 months have suggested **[36:21]** perhaps there isn't. And I'm like but there is. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There's enough. and this whole sense of, you know, well, if I I'm I'm trying to protect my corner and the way that I'm going to do that is by um Yeah. is is is exclusionary. >> Mhm. >> It's disappointing to me. >> Yeah. uh when I flipped over to uh to Blue Sky um as the place that I go other **[36:53]** than the thing the the platform formerly known as as Twitter. >> Uh one of my first >> and I still don't know what they're called, so I'm just going to call it a blute. >> [laughter] >> Uh my first blute, one of my first blutes was uh um equity does not mean you don't like someone else is getting your piece of the pie or a bigger piece of the pie. Equity is saying, "Hey, there's pie over here. Do you want some?" **[37:24]** >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [snorts] >> I wish more people could see that. >> Yeah. Um Yeah. uh that my brain I had a thing I was going to say besides that but now it's completely escaped but what I will say oh no I I remember we were talking about competitors you you're mentioning that the WordPress community and and a room full of competitors but it doesn't feel that way one of the first uh guests that were on this show was Roger uh who is chief something or other head of **[37:55]** something or other at Kinsta um and I work at Pantheon and ostensibly we are like competitors >> um and like this isn't a Pantheon show or anything but like there was a little bit of uh I felt trepidation from him especially since it was like one of the first episodes just like is it okay like oh we even we invited that's what it was like we invited him um we were at when we were at Word Camp us uh we had a video crew at our Pantheon booth and we were doing these things called web sessions uh which actually are starting **[38:27]** to go up on the internet now um where we were interviewing people and and basically asking what makes the web work and I thought because I had just had a recording with Roger uh on my podcast. I'm like, he would be a great person. He's here in the room. I can just go over there and grab him and and sit him down. Um and he's like, "Is is it okay that I have a Kinsta shirt?" I'm like, like, dude, we don't care. Like, we are like this is not that's Yeah, there's enough. Like the the people that are interested in Kinsta might not be interested in Pantheon, and the people that are interested in Pantheon might not be interested in Kinsta, and the people that are interested in both might **[38:58]** be interested in both. And they want they want to know what the best thing out of both things is. Like that's >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um it's interesting because the company that I work for is a craft CMS shop. >> So I left Humanmade uh and joined them two and a half nearly three years ago. And so that's been an interesting experience is kind of looking at other communities. It's very very different community than WordPress. It's open source but yet still very much um made **[39:28]** owned and operated by uh Pixel and Tonic the company behind it. Um and the you know people's attitudes around WordPress is very different sometimes in the craft community. Um >> uh and and you know the the things that make Craft Craft are different than the things that make WordPress WordPress. And there's been some tension around that for me sometimes uh particularly because I am still such an ardent supporter and enthusiast for WordPress but it's been um **[40:00]** I've I've have a client that has worked with us had gone to WordPress and is coming back to us not specifically to craft but I'm actually starting to see more WordPress um uh websites in our portfolio. And so I' I'm quietly loving the fact that that we now we have, you know, I'm sure my boss is probably not keen that I am publicizing that there's more WordPress in our in our portfolio because we are such an ardent craft shop. But um it's **[40:32]** quite fun to be for me now to be able to kind of jump back in to a little bit more WordPress and be back in the back end of WordPress other than just on my own site which of course is still um you know WordPress built but not published to very often at all anymore. But um but yeah it's it's that's been an interesting dynamic is actually seeing how other uh other CMS's work. I mean, of course, for a lot of the case, they all do the same thing. >> Um, but but also seeing how other **[41:04]** communities work and um >> and I actually just spent the last two days in the Tessaturura community. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with Tessura. It's a software CRM ticketing thing for the arts and culture community. Interesting. >> So, that's been interesting is is seeing uh how other communities function. And I won't lie, the Tessaturura conference, there's a lot of content in there that is not really touching me. I have a client that is uses it and that's why I needed to be there to kind of and so I **[41:35]** was there for some of the tech parts of it. But it was really interesting being in a room full of theater nerds who are also and in some cases tech nerds as well. And um yeah, so I think one of the things that I really love is community actually >> and I'm not a super extroverted person. I can function very very well and certainly present uh with extraversion but that for the two days I was getting home at the end of the day and I'm like oh I'm all peeled out. But what great **[42:06]** people like I spent an hour sitting over lunch yesterday talking about musical theater which anybody knows me knows that that's something that I absolutely adore. And so So yeah, um I'm not sure where I was going with that other than um there is that sense of uh enoughness in other communities I think as well. >> Yeah, I I I went to my first Drupal Con this year and then I went to my first Drupal camp this year as well. I went to Drupal Well, uh I'll tell you. Uh Drupal **[42:39]** Con is is the big event. Um so there's Drupal Con in Atlanta. Uh the tickets were like a thousand bucks ahead. Um it's it's it's the big industry event. Um and so it's it's comparable in scale and talk tracks and whatever to uh the flagship word camps. So word camp US and whatever. >> Uh and Drupal camps are much much much smaller. Um and those are the local community things. Yeah. So that's more like the your your local word camp **[43:10]** whatever. >> Um >> so I went to bad camp which is Bay Area Drupal Camp. um which also has probably the coolest uh Drupal camp name. Um >> I'm like that's just one well that's just one letter away from band camp. I love that. [laughter] >> And I uh I was presenting at at Bad Camp actually. Um and I went to to Drupal Con in Atlanta um this last year. Um and I it's very interesting being uh the WordPresser in the room full of Drupal **[43:41]** people. Um, >> but also one of the things that that jumped out to me immediately um at when I went to Drupal Con was how much it didn't feel different. Like it >> it felt like like the and I I've said this before on the show. Um, uh, one of the first things that I I saw when I got there was they had a a like a panel thing with a bunch of different stickers and one of the stickers, uh, is on the **[44:12]** website and it says, um, come for the code, stay for the community. >> Yeah. And that was part of that's part of the inception process of how this podcast came to be was just that that idea and the fact that that like that resonated so strongly to me >> from a completely different perspective like that that is the reason why I have been in the WordPress community for as long as I have been. >> Exactly. Yeah. Same. and and so seeing that oh the Drupal community also has **[44:43]** this thing and then al obviously over the course of the week I I got to talk to people and and have these conversations like it it really is like >> we are all just people and this is all just software and at the end of the day we're doing the same things and more >> the stuff that endures is the people right >> yes yeah and and and the things that we can learn from each other >> um and yeah and I think that's kind of I think that's kind of beautiful I [snorts] I love that. I think one of the great shames for me that's kind of postco is that our local community has **[45:15]** really really struggled. Our local WordPress community Yeah. >> has really really struggled and I was talking to the tester or the group that I was sitting with at the Tessy conference yesterday >> and was talking about so what are you know their community. So I'm sitting here going oh my goodness now I need to get back into choir like I haven't sung I came to Australia to sing and I haven't sung really since I moved to Melbourne. just about 13 years ago and and I you know I'm sitting there with all these people just buzzing with that energy of I need to be doing more of this and you know generally sit in a **[45:46]** tech conference and go yeah I really need to be singing anyway apparently testur has a choir um not in Melbourne anyway the long story short is that they're struggling with some of those same things yes they had a testure meetup group that is just struggled I mean I think Melbourne has struggled we were under lockdown for so long and I think that has definitely impacted the psyche of the >> but also because so many more people are remote, it's harder to get people out of their houses. >> Yeah. >> To an event now. And I think that's one of our certainly locally one of our **[46:17]** great challenges is to how do we that up? >> Um and part of it is also exhausted leaders and not finding any kind of rising leaders who are like, "Oh, I'll take that on, right?" And and let's let's go for it. So that's one of my hopes that some will rise up in Melbourne and go, "Yeah, I'm ready. Let's do things." Because I will happily go along, but I don't know how much juice I've got to be >> Yeah. >> organizing meetups again. >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Same. Same. >> Yeah. >> Well, thank you, D, for coming. Um, and **[46:48]** uh before we go, what uh where can people find you on the internet? >> They can find me at dal double teal.com. They can find me on the wordpr.com on blue sky. Uh they can find me at wpincludes.me or on the futureof team podcast that I do with my friend from Canada, James Duru. >> Awesome. Well, uh again, thank you for for joining me on on uh this podcast. Uh go check out De's podcast. I definitely **[47:20]** want to listen to DE's podcast as well. uh and >> you talk about a lot of these similar things, workplace, uh leadership, management. Um so it's not there's no code talk because I can't talk code. It's been 15 years since I touched any. [laughter] >> I mean I figure there's enough there's enough code tech podcasts out there that that if you that's what you're looking for, you can find it. >> People people. Well, thanks Chris. It's been absolutely lovely to be here. >> Yeah. Uh it's been lovely to have you on. And for everyone else who's watching **[47:50]** or listening to this in the future, uh we'll see you on the internet. [music]