Episode 17 Tearyne Almendariz - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 17: Tearyne Almendariz 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 17: Tearyne Almendariz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaRD5bPsZ1M) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [community-and-code, developer-advocacy, identity-online] > author: Chris Reynolds > source: Community and Code Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaRD5bPsZ1M > date created: 2025-01-03 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 17: Tearyne Almendariz - Online Identity, Developer Advocacy, and Building Inclusive Communities >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider accessibility needs in event planning — defaults like alcohol consumption exclude people #inclusion - [H2] Model authentic identity in developer advocacy — being your whole self is leadership #devrel - [H3] Build community with intentional inclusion — find allies and create safe spaces #community ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Twitch Channel - Nine Lives Black Cat](https://twitch.tv/ninelivesblackcat) - [NLBC Works Consulting](https://nlbcworks.com) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Tearyne Almendariz shares her journey from Sailor Moon fan sites to developer advocacy and Twitch streaming - **Why it matters**: Explores how online identities shape career paths and community building in tech - **Key stakeholders**: Developer advocates, community managers, accessibility advocates, content creators - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Balancing multiple identities vs. authentic self-expression in professional contexts - **Bottom line**: Intentional community building and inclusive event planning create spaces where people can show up authentically ## 📖 Main Content Tearyne Almendariz, known online as Nine Lives Black Cat, discusses her evolution from teenage web developer to developer advocate to Twitch streamer. Her journey illustrates how online identities can fragment or integrate, and how developer advocacy serves as "therapy for developers." Key themes include the importance of accessibility in web development (sparked by her temporary hearing loss), inclusive event planning that doesn't default to alcohol-centric activities, and the intentional building of supportive online communities. Her Twitch community, the "Bad Luck Battalion," focuses on co-working and mutual support rather than traditional gaming metrics. The conversation reveals how life experiences - from teenage pregnancy labeled as "geriatric" at 38, to learning about accessibility through temporary disability - shape both technical understanding and community leadership approaches. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Identity Formation - Key idea: Online identities shape who we become in tech - Evidence: "Nine Lives Black Cat was my gamer tag. I didn't realize they were going to print it on my badge" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=323) — [H2] Origin Story: From Sailor Moon to Web Development - Key idea: Passion projects drive technical learning - Evidence: "I want to learn how to speak Japanese because Sailor Moon speaks Japanese... I want to learn how to make websites about Sailor Moon" #### ⏱️ [10:45](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=645) — [H2] Developer Advocacy as Therapy - Key idea: DevRel involves emotional support for technical challenges - Evidence: "You get to be a therapist for developers... I have cried over code and I would love to hold someone's hand through that" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=920) — [H2] Speaking to Overcome Social Anxiety - Key idea: Conference speaking creates natural networking opportunities - Evidence: "People would come up and be like, thank you so much for talking about that. I'm dealing with this problem too" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=1335) — [H1] Inclusive Event Planning - Key idea: Default alcohol-centric events exclude many community members - Evidence: "By not offering a non-alcohol-centric opportunity you are excluding somebody from networking" #### ⏱️ [28:40](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=1720) — [H2] Board Game Nights as Inclusive Alternative - Key idea: Alternative social activities create welcoming spaces - Evidence: "Every year the Drupal diversity inclusion initiative... we have a board game night... If you want to order alcohol, you can. It is optional" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=1930) — [H1] Accessibility Through Personal Experience - Key idea: Temporary disabilities reveal web accessibility gaps - Evidence: "I lost hearing in this ear for like two months... if I wanted to watch a video... I had to have subtitles. That made me realize how much stuff on the internet is not subtitled" #### ⏱️ [38:25](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=2305) — [H3] Pregnancy and Identity Labels - Key idea: Medical labels affect how people are treated and perceived - Evidence: "When you get past like 35 and you get pregnant... they label your pregnancy as geriatric" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=2715) — [H2] Early Internet Communities and Learning - Key idea: Text-based online worlds taught programming concepts - Evidence: "I learned object oriented programming through being a dolphin writer... in the Pern world mush" #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=3150) — [H2] Doing Before Identifying - Key idea: Actions and interests precede professional identity labels - Evidence: "I tend to do before I identify... I did not know that people paid people to make websites" #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=3525) — [H2] Intentional Community Building on Twitch - Key idea: Successful communities require deliberate cultivation and values - Evidence: "I spend a lot of time thinking about who are the people that need this... I'm intentionally building this community" #### ⏱️ [65:20](https://youtu.be/WaRD5bPsZ1M?t=3920) — [H1] Integrating Multiple Identities - Key idea: Authenticity means showing up as your whole self - Evidence: "I don't have to fragment my identity. I can show up as my full self and still be valid... that's a type of leadership too" ## 📚 References - [Community and Code Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaRD5bPsZ1M) - [Twitch - Nine Lives Black Cat](https://twitch.tv/ninelivesblackcat) - [NLBC Works Consulting](https://nlbcworks.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Online identities that start as gaming handles can evolve into professional brands when embraced authentically - Developer advocacy fills an emotional support role by helping developers navigate both technical and interpersonal challenges - Inclusive event planning requires alternatives to default alcohol-centric networking activities to welcome all community members - Personal experiences with temporary or permanent accessibility needs provide the most compelling motivation for building accessible web experiences ## 📰 Newsletter **Building Inclusive Communities Through Authentic Identity** This week's conversation with Tearyne Almendariz (Nine Lives Black Cat) reveals powerful insights for developer community builders. Her journey from teenage Sailor Moon fan site creator to developer advocate to Twitch streamer illustrates how embracing authentic identity - even unconventional handles from gaming - can strengthen rather than fragment professional presence. Key takeaways for community leaders: Default alcohol-centric networking excludes many participants. Consider board game nights, co-working sessions, or activity-based alternatives. Personal accessibility experiences drive the most compelling advocacy - temporary hearing loss taught Tearyne more about web accessibility than any specification document. Her approach to Twitch community building offers a model for intentional cultivation: focus on mutual support over metrics, integrate professional and personal identity, and create spaces where people can show up authentically. Resources: [Drupal Diversity Initiative](https://www.drupal.org/community/diversity-inclusion), [Web Accessibility Guidelines](https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/), [Community Building Resources](https://learn.wordpress.org/workshop/community-team-handbook/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Embrace "therapy for developers" aspect - provide emotional support alongside technical guidance - Education: Create accessibility workshops based on personal experience narratives, not just compliance checklists - Developer experience: Document both technical solutions and interpersonal navigation strategies - Developer marketing: Showcase authentic identity integration rather than corporate-sanitized personas - Community management: Plan inclusive events with non-alcohol alternatives as default options #### Community - Maintainers: Create governance that welcomes authentic self-expression and multiple identity integration - Contributors: Establish mentorship programs that address emotional as well as technical challenges - Sponsors: Fund inclusive event formats that accommodate diverse social preferences and accessibility needs - Ecosystem: Build cross-project support networks for underrepresented community members #### WordPress - Community: Develop meetup kit templates for inclusive event planning beyond default bar/brewery venues - Design: Audit UX patterns that may exclude temporary or permanent accessibility needs - Accessibility: Create personal narrative-driven training materials alongside technical documentation - Marketing: Showcase community members who integrate multiple identities successfully ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Communities that explicitly welcome authentic identity expression retain members longer than those requiring professional personas - Event accessibility improves when organizers have personal experience with temporary disabilities - Developer advocacy effectiveness correlates with practitioner's willingness to show vulnerability and authentic struggle - Online community metrics focused on mutual support outperform engagement-only metrics for long-term sustainability ### 📊 Methodology - Survey community members on identity fragmentation vs. integration preferences and retention rates - A/B test inclusive event formats vs. traditional networking events measuring participation diversity - Analyze developer advocacy content performance comparing vulnerable/authentic vs. polished professional approaches - Track Twitch/Discord community health metrics beyond follower count (support interactions, member retention, etc.) ### ❓ Questions - How do we measure community "psychological safety" for authentic identity expression? - What event formats best serve neurodivergent community members beyond traditional conference structures? - How can developer advocacy training include emotional intelligence and support skills? - What role should personal narrative play in technical accessibility education? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of career trajectories for professionals who integrate vs. fragment online identities - Analysis of community retention rates across different event accessibility accommodations - Investigation of developer advocacy program effectiveness when including "soft skills" training - Exploration of co-working/body doubling models for distributed technical teams ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Event planners should default to inclusive formats rather than retrofitting accessibility - **Policy**: Developer advocacy job descriptions should explicitly include emotional support competencies - **Community**: Online community platforms need better support for identity integration vs. fragmentation - **Education**: Accessibility training becomes more effective when rooted in personal experience narratives - **Funding**: Community programs should budget for inclusive venue and format accommodations upfront ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 9th-10th grade (conversational, accessible language) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker visible, background visual identity elements - Improve: Timeline graphics of identity evolution, community structure diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio conversation with natural speech patterns and storytelling - Improve: Highlight key quotes in audio clips, discussion prompts for listening groups #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich storytelling, personal anecdotes, metaphors ("therapy for developers") - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, comparison frameworks for different approaches #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world examples, actionable community building strategies - Improve: Workshop templates for inclusive event planning, hands-on accessibility exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between identity and community outcomes - Improve: Decision trees for event planning, metrics frameworks for community health #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion, collaborative problem-solving examples - Improve: Discussion guides for community leader groups, peer learning opportunities #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection on identity integration, individual journey narratives - Improve: Self-assessment tools for authentic identity expression, journaling prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic community evolution examples, natural identity development - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about community interconnections, growth pattern analysis ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: YouTube auto-captions available, structured conversation format - Improve: Professional transcript with speaker identification, time-stamped navigation #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Chapter markers for topic-based navigation, skip-to-content options #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface meets basic contrast requirements - Improve: High-contrast mode option, adjustable text size for captions #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube interface responsive to zoom settings - Improve: Dedicated transcript page with responsive text formatting #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available but not professionally edited - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard YouTube engagement (like, subscribe, comment) accessible - Improve: Alternative engagement methods for users avoiding social media platforms ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of diverse community experiences, accessibility across different contexts - Improve: Global examples of inclusive community building, international accessibility standards #### Inclusive language - Present: Person-first language for disability discussion, respectful identity terminology - Improve: Define technical jargon immediately, provide plain-language summaries #### Neurodiversity support - Present: ADHD representation and accommodation discussion, structured conversation format - Improve: Content warnings for medical topics, multiple format options (audio-only, transcript) #### Representation - Present: Women in tech leadership, neurodivergent community member perspectives - Improve: Broader spectrum of identity intersections, diverse community examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Vulnerable sharing modeled appropriately, supportive conversation tone - Improve: Trigger warnings for medical/pregnancy content, community guidelines for response discussions ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Personal experience → accessibility awareness → better advocacy (strong throughout) - Inductive strength: Multiple examples of inclusive events → general principles (moderate, good examples) - Causal reasoning: Identity fragmentation → burnout vs. integration → sustainability (strong personal evidence) - Analogical strength: Developer advocacy as therapy (compelling but needs boundaries) #### Fallacies - **Appeal to personal experience**: Over-reliance on individual stories without broader data (throughout) - strengthen with research backing - **False dichotomy**: Integration vs. fragmentation as only options (identity section) - acknowledge spectrum of approaches #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, vulnerable, supportive with occasional technical precision. Creates psychological safety while maintaining professional credibility. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No concerning denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacking behavior toward accusers or critics - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal detected - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Appropriate vulnerability and storytelling without manipulation; authentic sharing to build connection and provide learning ## --- ## Full Transcript [00:13] [music] [00:18] Welcome to the first episode of season 2 [00:19] of Community and Code. I'm Chris [00:21] Reynolds and I'm so happy to be kicking [00:23] off 2026 with this conversation with [00:25] Taran Almondarees. Taran is a longtime [00:28] Drupal community member, a friend of [00:30] mine, a former developer advocate, and [00:32] the human being behind the handle Nine [00:35] Lives Blackat. In this episode, we talk [00:37] about how online identities shape who we [00:39] become. We talk about developer advocacy [00:42] and how it's like therapy for developers [00:44] and how accessibility becomes real the [00:46] moment you need it yourself. And we talk [00:48] about why community events shouldn't [00:50] default to venues and activities where [00:52] alcohol consumption is assumed as a [00:54] default. We also get into Taran's Twitch [00:56] streaming and what it looks like to [00:58] intentionally build a community where [01:00] people can show up as their true selves. [01:02] If you haven't already, click the [01:04] subscribe button wherever that might be [01:06] uh in your podcaster to make sure you [01:08] get these uh updates in the podcaster of [01:12] choice or on YouTube or wherever you're [01:13] consuming this. Uh and without further [01:15] ado, here's Taran. Welcome to Comedian [01:18] Code, the podcast where we talk to the [01:20] human beings behind the commits. And [01:22] today I'm talking to Taran Almondarees [01:25] who is a longtime Drupalista. I believe [01:28] that's the appropriate word. Uh who is [01:30] she's worn a lot of hats. I will say [01:32] that she's been involved in Drupal [01:34] community. Uh she's done developer [01:36] advocacy. Uh she's now currently working [01:38] as a uh as a consultant and that can [01:40] mean a million different things. Uh [01:42] welcome to the show Taran. Uh tell us [01:44] about yourself. [01:45] >> Hi Chris, thanks for having me. So yes, [01:47] I'm Taran Almondar. It is pronounced [01:49] like Karen with a T. I've done this so [01:51] many times. cuz I felt it like [01:52] immediately turn on, right? Um, right [01:55] now I am, what all am I doing? So, I am [02:00] the owner/operator/founder [02:02] slash I needed something to put on the [02:05] taxes. I own NLBC Works, which is a [02:08] consulting firm doing like technical [02:11] marketing. Um, NLBC refers to my name on [02:14] Drupal, Nine Lies Black Cat, which was [02:17] my gamer tag. And I didn't realize that [02:19] they were going to print it on my badge. [02:21] I joke on and uh then my street name is [02:23] out there, but I've just been embracing [02:25] it. Um I'm also a Twitch streamer. I'm [02:28] also a mom. I used to be very involved [02:31] in politics. [02:33] >> I I do a lot I wear a lot of hats and a [02:35] lot of wigs. A lot of wigs. [laughter] [02:37] >> Yeah, maybe the metaphor is a little bit [02:39] different uh with the wig collection. [02:41] Um, tell me about uh what drew you to [02:45] Drupal specifically originally or like [02:48] maybe your your origin story into tech [02:51] just generally. [02:52] >> Yeah, I think that the origin story into [02:55] tech is going to be a little bit more [02:56] interesting cuz like like it is with [02:58] most people that are in Drupal. It's [02:59] like I needed a job and then there was a [03:01] job and I needed to learn Drupal so I [03:03] did it right. Um come for the code, stay [03:05] for the community as they say. But in [03:07] the background you see how I have like [03:08] all this anime stuff. A lot of it is [03:10] from Sailor Moon. And what happened is [03:12] that when I was like 14, 15, I told my [03:15] parents, "Hey mom, I've been watching, [03:17] hey mom, hey dad." Um, I've been [03:19] watching this show. It's called Sailor [03:21] Moon. And I just found out Sailor Moon [03:23] is from Japan. And they're like, okay, [03:25] that's cool. And I was like, I want to [03:26] learn how to speak Japanese cuz Sailor [03:28] Moon speaks Japanese. That's why her [03:29] mouth doesn't match when she's talking. [03:31] Like, okay, um, here's some books. And I [03:33] was like, okay, cool. So, I'm like [03:34] teaching myself Japanese, right? Because [03:36] I'm just like, that's who I've been. [03:37] That is who I've been my whole life. If [03:38] I want to do a thing, I go and do it. [03:40] And then I'm like, "Mom and dad, do you [03:42] know what I found out? You can make [03:43] websites about Sailor Moon on the [03:44] internet. I want to learn how to make [03:46] websites." And they're like, "Okay, um, [03:48] here's a book on how to make websites." [03:50] And so that's what I did. So, [03:52] >> see, I never got a book. I just got a [03:55] Geio Cities account and I was like, uh, [03:57] looking at like the source code of [04:00] everybody else's Geio's account and then [04:02] like copying blocks of HTML into my site [04:04] and then figured out eventually that [04:06] those things meant stuff. Nice. I got to [04:08] that point like uh in the Neopets in [04:11] MySpace era, right? [04:13] >> Yes. [04:13] >> Yeah. [04:14] >> Yep. That was a huge part of why I [04:15] learned CSS and I was like, "Oh my god." [04:17] I remember when I discovered PHP, I was [04:19] like, "What do you mean I don't have to [04:21] copy this same text from the website [04:23] over and over again? I can just have it [04:25] called. It'll just show up." I was so [04:26] proud of myself. So proud. [04:28] >> I had been when I learned that PHP was a [04:31] thing. I had been doing copying and [04:36] pasting like Pearl scripts and like CGI [04:41] bin type [04:43] files. Like [04:45] >> I didn't know what any of this stuff [04:46] did. I just knew that like I could went [04:48] to a I could go to a website and I could [04:50] search for a thing. I'm like, "Do you [04:52] have anything that does this type of [04:54] thing?" And there would be a script that [04:56] came up and it was like copy and paste [04:58] this stuff and like change these things. [05:00] like, okay, I can copy and paste stuff [05:01] and change things. So, like when I [05:03] learned that PHP was like a language [05:05] that sort of kind of did that stuff [05:08] except like better, [05:11] >> that didn't require these weird [05:12] libraries that would break. I was like, [05:14] "Oh, okay. This is this is this is this [05:18] is actually sustainable. This is like [05:20] this is like something I can actually [05:22] maybe do." [05:25] >> So, I know like I don't know. I'm trying [05:30] to think of so what is happening right [05:32] now is that my brain sees a camera in [05:34] front of me and knows that I'm recording [05:35] a thing and it's like you need to ask [05:37] the next question. It's like no it's [05:38] your turn to get asked questions. It's [05:39] like but we have to do something. We [05:41] have to do [05:41] >> I mean you can ask me questions. I [05:43] usually I'm the one that asks questions [05:45] but I'm I'm happy to toss it over to [05:47] you. I mean obviously [laughter] [05:49] obviously we're both pretty practiced at [05:50] being the host. Uh oh yeah talk about uh [05:54] so so yeah you uh I mean we worked [05:56] together once upon a time and again now [05:59] but uh previously you were uh kind of in [06:02] my role at the company that I am [06:05] currently at doing the thing that I do [06:07] at that company took my job. [laughter] [06:11] >> I didn't literally take your job. he [06:13] didn't literally take my job is a whole [06:14] long story. [laughter] But yes, [06:16] >> um but like what drew you to that side [06:18] of of development because it's very [06:20] different than the actual like working [06:21] with people and clients and like uh and [06:24] and I've talked to like I talked to a [06:26] bunch of Devrils on on this podcast like [06:28] so what what drew you and what do you [06:30] see as as sort of the extension or the [06:32] like where Devril fits in sort of like [06:34] developer experience? [06:35] >> I love this question. Uh so what [06:38] happened is that you know for me coding [06:40] is like solving puzzles right figuring [06:43] things out. How does this work? And the [06:44] thing that I really enjoy is solving [06:46] puzzles for other people in ways that [06:48] like help them to get what they need [06:49] done. Uh it's why I really loved my job [06:52] when I was working at the city of Dallas [06:54] for their civilian retirement fund. [06:55] Right. And I did that. But then I wanted [06:57] to do cooler things that were more [06:59] dynamic that would help more people. So [07:00] I moved on to another job and then [07:02] another job after that. And I was at [07:05] Lullababot at the time and I was trying [07:07] to figure out like what's the next step [07:08] for me because on a lot of teams that [07:10] I've been on, right, I was a front-end [07:12] developer which was a whole different [07:13] change from like being a web master. And [07:16] I know I told you I wanted to talk about [07:17] like identities on the internet, right? [07:20] >> Um, so I became a front-end developer. [07:22] I'm solving all these problems, but I'm [07:24] also being the person that's kind of [07:26] like the business analyst hat. I should [07:27] have had a bunch of hats. Um, I also [07:29] have ADHD. That's a huge part of my [07:31] personality. raining back end and I was [07:34] like okay what do I do next and then [07:36] Fatima Colin um who was a the developer [07:40] advocate before both of us so it's like [07:43] a chain of web de [07:46] >> it's a chain of developer advocacy right [07:48] yes um she's like you know you might be [07:50] interested in being a developer advocate [07:52] and so I was like oh well what is that [07:54] and she said to me it's like you get to [07:56] be a therapist for developers and I was [07:58] like I can do that because I have cried [08:00] over code a [08:01] And I would love to hold someone's hand [08:03] through that. I'd like to be there for [08:05] them. [08:06] >> A therapist [laughter] for developers. [08:07] This that's the first time I've heard it [08:09] described as that. [08:10] >> Uh I I I think I like that. I don't know [08:14] that I like the pressure associated with [08:15] being a therapist for developers. [08:18] [laughter] [08:20] >> It's like it's not you, it's the [08:21] semicolon. I promise. [08:23] >> Yeah, that's that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. [08:25] Yeah. [08:25] >> Um [08:26] >> how did you really feel about that [08:27] commit? [laughter] [08:29] >> Yeah. I mean I I think I think that's [08:31] true. I think that's a an interesting [08:33] take. Um [08:35] >> uh I think that and obviously like so [08:37] Fatima um we uh we also have worked [08:40] together a little bit and I had her on [08:42] the Pantheon live stream which we can uh [08:45] link to in the show notes or whatever. [08:47] Uh um she's over at GitLab now and you [08:50] were at GitLab. [08:51] >> I was at GitLab with her for a while. [08:52] Yeah. It's like I'm following Fatima [08:54] everywhere she goes. I promise it's an [08:56] accident. [08:58] >> Yeah. Um but what what's uh [09:03] being there's a big difference between [09:06] because part of part of what Devril is [09:08] is also kind of um being the the public [09:12] face um [09:14] >> and uh we can talk about uh your public [09:17] faces uh because there might be plural. [09:20] Um, [09:22] >> was developer uh relations sort of like [09:25] an introduction or were you already kind [09:27] of out in the world with your face [09:30] plastered on things before becoming a [09:32] developer advocate? [09:34] >> That's a good question. I kind of was [09:37] actually like in small parts because [09:41] what happened when I went to my first [09:43] Drupal con is that I met uh this guy [09:45] named Colleen Harris. I actually have a [09:47] LinkedIn post about it. I'm going to [09:48] tell the story in small parts. So, I met [09:51] Khim at my first Drupal Con and he [09:54] explained, you know, if you want to [09:56] level up in your job, you need to get [09:58] out there and you need to go and like [10:00] give talks. And I'm like, I'm sorry, [10:01] what? Cuz before, like I could not order [10:04] food for myself at a restaurant, right? [10:07] Like, hello. Um, [10:10] and I wouldn't make my dad order the [10:11] food until he was like, "You know what? [10:12] You're going to learn the skill." And [10:13] then he just kind of walked away. And me [10:16] and the person at the restaurant are [10:17] like [10:20] staring right. Um, but I wanted to get [10:23] better. I loved the work that I was [10:26] doing and how it was helping people and [10:28] I said, well, you know, I think I can do [10:31] this. There were problems that I [10:33] encountered and that I learned about uh [10:35] working for the city with regard to web [10:37] accessibility and I was like, I figured [10:40] out some of these problems. I know that [10:42] a lot of other people have these issues [10:44] and by me speaking up, I can help other [10:47] people to fix their problems. So I did [10:49] my first talk, it was called like [10:51] government issues and that is a short [10:53] version of the name that I will keep to [10:55] because I listen to a lot of fallout [10:56] while growing up. So it was a very long [10:58] title. Almost all of my talks have very [11:00] long titles. [11:01] >> But I did that at Texas Drupal Camp. [11:04] That was my first camp that I spoke at. [11:06] It was in a smaller room and it was kind [11:08] of scary but everyone was really cool [11:10] about it. Um, so I did that I think [11:13] three times that year. And then I [11:16] remember the reason why I kept doing it [11:20] is because not because like of the [11:22] attention that I got, but because people [11:25] would come up and be like, you know, [11:27] thank you so much for talking about [11:28] that. I'm dealing with this problem too [11:30] and this gives me a way to solve it. Or [11:32] I tried this and it didn't work for me, [11:34] you know, or here's something that I um [11:37] tried and it didn't it it did work. And [11:40] I remember um actually at one of my [11:43] first Drupal Cons, a Pantheon employee [11:45] heard me talking about how my senior [11:48] developer at one position that will [11:49] remain nameless for now um said to me, [11:52] "Well, we have to just back up our files [11:54] manually because you can't use Git. Git [11:57] is resource inensive." And that Pantheon [11:59] employee was like, "No, that person's [12:02] peeing on your leg and telling you it's [12:03] raining." They didn't they didn't say [12:05] like that, right? That's my way. But [12:08] seeing like that being a developer [12:10] advocate, maybe that made the impression [12:11] on me that you could help people like [12:14] both to know like how to fix a problem [12:17] and how to [12:19] navigate issues like how to know like [12:23] what is solvable and what is not and [12:24] like when's it time to push the ejector [12:27] seat. That's a ' 80s kid reference [12:29] there. But um that that really I feel [12:33] like that's what [12:37] uh inspired me to be in and stay in [12:41] developer advocacy for as much as I [12:44] could. [12:44] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think a lot of us [12:47] uh myself included have been doing the [12:50] work of developer relations for long [12:52] before we had the title of developer [12:55] advocate or developer you know [12:56] evangelist or whatever you're going to [12:58] call it. Um, and a thing that has come [13:00] up a couple times on this show this year [13:03] has been um I guess maybe last year when [13:06] this uh episode is being uh released um [13:10] >> uh is is the idea that um like speaking [13:15] as a way both to to overcome like social [13:18] anxiety and and things like that, but [13:20] also seek speaking as a shortcut for [13:23] introverts uh at an event. Because when [13:26] you present something at the event, you [13:28] don't actually have to start [13:29] conversations cuz other people will just [13:30] come up to you and start talking to you. [13:32] >> So you don't have to like super go out [13:34] be outgoing and have and initiate [13:36] conversations because people will come [13:37] and talk to you instead. [13:38] >> So you're an introvert. [13:40] >> I am not personally although I'm a bit [13:44] more of an ambbervert I think these [13:46] days. Um, [13:48] >> but uh I definitely have always been [13:51] more well I mean I guess the thing is [13:53] like it's always it's weird like [13:56] >> I like being around people. I've always [13:58] been doing like like in high school I [14:00] was doing theater. I've always been [14:02] like, [14:02] >> you know, really social, but [14:05] >> um I [14:06] >> in in situations where I'm around people [14:09] that I maybe don't know uh or or an [14:12] unfamiliar situation, I'm very much [14:14] going to like stick to the walls and and [14:16] wallflower unless I'm pulled into a [14:19] conversation or or [14:20] >> or or if there if I have allies around [14:22] me, right? Um, [14:25] >> so, so like I mean, and and that's a [14:27] thing that I've that I've even like even [14:29] this last year too, like um it's a thing [14:31] that I've I've been working on when I [14:33] went to I went to Presconf uh last year [14:37] um [14:38] >> and I was going by myself [14:40] >> uh and um because no one else from [14:43] Pantheon was going. [14:44] >> Um and I knew that I would know people [14:46] there, [14:46] >> but I didn't I wasn't going with anyone. [14:48] So I didn't have like a de facto like [14:51] social group to fall back on even like [14:53] you know I kind of knew that there but [14:54] it wasn't like official or whatever and [14:57] um [clears throat] and so I just told um [14:59] Courtney Robertson who I'm hoping to get [15:01] on this podcast at some point. [15:03] >> Courtney, come on. Come on. Come on. [15:05] >> Um I just uh she's a developer advocate [15:08] at uh GoDaddy and I said I I said don't [15:12] let me wallflower. And so when I got [15:13] there, she just like made it her job to [15:15] introduce me to like every single person [15:17] and pull me over and like and that I [15:19] mean it helped. And we like and and what [15:21] was really cool that came out of that uh [15:23] was um there was like a handful of us [15:26] that were either um vegan or one person [15:29] uh was um kosher. Um [clears throat] and [15:34] the the way that the event was set up is [15:35] like everybody kind of goes off off [15:37] campus or you know off off venue to go [15:40] out and get food. So, we just kind of [15:41] like had our own little vegan collective [15:44] uh called which we called Veg Press. Uh [15:46] and we just like ate ate lunch together [15:48] and then sometime a couple nights had [15:50] dinner together and like that was it was [15:51] really cool because to have that sort of [15:53] like okay well I know this is taken care [15:55] of because like there's a bunch of other [15:56] people that are in the same boat as me. [15:58] Um which is also like super valuable for [16:00] for like pro tip for anyone who's like [16:03] like in that situation like yeah find [16:05] find your find your allies find your [16:07] find your people. I have a similar story [16:09] to that which is like I feel like this [16:11] leans into the identity thing, right? [16:13] Where the way that you identify or like [16:17] parts that of you that make up your [16:19] identity end up kind of determining like [16:22] who you end up being social with. So [16:24] toward the end of the first stint that I [16:27] was at at Pantheon, right? I was [16:29] pregnant and I was very early in my [16:32] pregnancy and we went to an event and [16:34] most of what was getting brought out was [16:36] like there was water. [16:38] >> Was there water? But then there was beer [16:40] and I couldn't say anything, right? And [16:43] it's like I can't drink this beer. So [16:45] what ended up happening is I went and [16:47] talked to one of the people at the [16:49] restaurant. I was like, "Hi, I'm [16:51] pregnant. No one at my job knows. could [16:53] you please bring some lemonade out? [16:54] Right? And so what happened is that the [16:57] other people who did not drink either [16:59] for like health reasons, religious [17:01] reasons, or professional reasons, [17:02] whatever reason it was, I met a bunch of [17:04] people that I would not have met if I [17:06] had not had the picture of lemonade at [17:08] my table. So it's really interesting [17:10] like how that works out. [17:11] >> Yeah. I've I've not my partner and I [17:15] have stopped drinking a couple years [17:16] ago. [17:17] >> Yeah. And the last last year going to [17:20] events, it's been very interesting being [17:22] like previously I would try to I would [17:24] just not drink. I would just get water [17:25] and I would just be whatever. [17:27] >> Um but like this last year and because I [17:30] was going to a lot more events this [17:31] year. Um, [17:33] >> it was very interesting being the sober [17:37] the sober one in the room and and like [17:39] finding other people that are like also [17:42] not partaking of the the free the you [17:45] know open bar or like whatever drinks [17:47] are being and like also like finding [17:49] okay so going to places and like all the [17:51] parties are always at at bars almost [17:53] always at bars right so it's always it's [17:56] always a thing so it's like okay uh how [17:59] well has this particular venue you [18:01] planned for people in my situation? [18:04] Like, do they have an actual like [18:06] mocktail uh list or do they have [18:08] >> or they just have like Yeah, you can [18:10] have a Coke. Well, I don't drink Coke [18:12] either, but like [laughter] [18:13] you know, like I guess in a pinch, you [18:16] know. [18:16] >> Yeah, I know. Uh this sort of reminds me [18:19] of another part of my identity, right, [18:20] for a while cuz time is wibbly wobbly [18:23] now. Um, I was the lead of the Drupal [18:26] diversity inclusion initiative. And one [18:28] of the things that we made sure to do, [18:30] right, because even at Drupal cons, [18:31] right, we're inclusive and things of [18:33] that nature, but [18:34] >> there are a lot of parties and in tech, [18:36] a lot of parties involve drinking. Um, [18:39] years before that, I had gone to see a [18:41] talk by a gentleman named Victor Yoko, [18:43] and he described like why it was so [18:46] important for reasons of like people who [18:48] don't want to drink, right? and he talks [18:50] about like how um I don't want to like [18:52] misquote anything but like there are [18:54] people who yes they don't drink because [18:55] they don't want to because pregnant [18:57] other things but also how some people [19:00] are alcoholics and by not offering a [19:04] non-alcoholentric opportunity you are [19:07] excluding somebody from a room um you're [19:10] excluding them from networking right to [19:12] be being able to contribute to your [19:14] project and that always carried with me [19:16] and so every year the Drupal diversity [19:18] inclusion init initiative. Um, at Drupal [19:21] Con, we have um a board game night. [19:25] Like, that's our way of getting together [19:27] and hanging out, right? That's our way [19:28] of having fun. If you want to order [19:30] alcohol, you can. It is optional. And uh [19:34] it's it's been so great. This last [19:37] Drupal Con in Atlanta in 2025, we had it [19:40] at a uh like this little [19:43] hole-in-the-wall bar that was also like [19:46] a barcade, but they had plenty of like [19:48] mocktails, so everybody got to do [19:50] whatever they wanted to. And the thing [19:52] that brought us together to have fun was [19:54] just like all of the games that were [19:56] there. Yep. And it was quiet, too. So, [19:58] it's like we can choose. I know there's [20:00] a lot of people with sensory overload [20:02] stuff. So, Yep. our identities bring us [20:04] together and drive us apart. [20:06] >> I um that reminds me of a um I was at a [20:10] company retreat many not many years a [20:12] few years ago [20:13] >> um for a company that I worked at before [20:16] Pantheon. [20:17] >> Uh and [20:18] >> you know at night after a day long of [20:21] like you know doing work sessions and [20:24] stuff in person um obviously we go to [20:27] the bar, we go to whatever and and get [20:29] together and hang out and drink. Um, and [20:31] I had a friend who um drank heavily um [20:37] >> several nights in a row and then got [20:39] completely trashed and the next day he's [20:40] like, "I'm not doing that again and I I [20:42] need to not do this again." And I was [20:45] like, "Okay, um well, why don't I be [20:48] your sober buddy? [20:49] >> Like, [20:50] >> you don't drink and I won't drink for [20:51] the rest of the trip." And like I don't [20:53] have any particular reason to not, but [20:55] like I I can I will do this to make sure [20:56] that like you have somebody an ally [20:58] that's doing this with you at least. [21:00] Yeah. [21:01] >> And that seemed to help. And I think I [21:04] think that he's been sober ever since. [21:06] Oh. [21:07] >> Um, so I think I mean like it just takes [21:11] like somebody to to like just caring [21:14] about people like and that gets into [21:17] like yeah the the the substance abuse [21:19] thing where like [21:20] >> um like I don't I I wouldn't necessarily [21:22] characterize him as an alcoholic at the [21:24] time but he was conscious enough of the [21:28] sort of [21:29] >> I don't want to say destructive behavior [21:30] but like the consequences of [21:33] >> like his actions that he wanted to make [21:35] a choice to to do something different [21:37] and that he did and I like to think that [21:40] that I helped a little bit. Um but um [21:44] you know regardless I think he's in a [21:45] better place. Um, and that's awesome. [21:48] And like people have a million reasons [21:50] to to make those decisions. And I I [21:52] think that it's [21:54] >> it's always important, especially for [21:56] like event planning type stuff [21:58] >> to consider [22:00] >> the full spectrum of human beings [22:03] because there's a lot of different like [22:05] lot of us lot of different places on [22:07] your journey that you could be for a lot [22:09] of different things. [22:10] >> Yep. I know the reason why I ended up [22:12] getting so deep into accessibility. Um, [22:15] you know, I I knew, you know, everybody [22:17] knows like you see the little thing, [22:18] it's like, oh, this is hand to get [22:19] parking, right? That's what it was when [22:21] we were kids. [22:22] >> And one summer when I was a [22:24] receptionist, uh, working for this place [22:26] that monitors like pool phones, like [22:29] it's the whole thing. But I was there [22:31] and as [clears throat] a receptionist, [22:32] I'm like this with my phone all day, [22:33] right? M [22:34] >> and I got swimmer's ear, which I did not [22:37] realize that you could get if you [22:39] weren't swimming, but there we are. And [22:41] the thing about that was I lost hearing [22:44] in this ear for like a good [22:47] I want to say it was like at least two [22:49] months. And so I couldn't put, you know, [22:52] how I have my earbuds in today, I [22:54] couldn't do that. And if I wanted to [22:56] watch a video or tutorial or something [22:58] on YouTube, if I was not able to like [23:01] sit and listen to it like out loud, I [23:03] had to have subtitles. And that made me [23:05] realize how much stuff on the internet [23:07] is not subtitled. [23:09] >> Yeah. [23:10] >> And it it just I looked more into like [23:14] how do you do this? How would you even [23:16] get this going? And you know, I had a [23:19] disability temporarily, [23:21] >> right? [23:22] >> Right. Most people do not realize like [23:25] they think like you're either born [23:26] able-bodied or you're born not [23:28] able-bodied, right? And it's like no, [23:31] every so often like even pregnancy is [23:33] like uh determined as a disability [23:35] temporarily, right? And I can tell you [23:37] the way that my ligaments change because [23:39] of the chemical composition of things [23:40] flowing through my body. Yeah, that was [23:42] a disability. It was not fun. Um also [23:45] the the heartburn that no one told me [23:47] about. Chris, [23:48] >> I'm sorry for the heartburn that nobody [23:50] told you about. They, you know, they [23:52] tell you about, oh yeah, you're going to [23:53] get nausea and it's like, okay, I can [23:55] deal with that. Just heartburn, [23:56] relentless heartburn, right? But [24:00] we're going to talk about being a mom in [24:01] a bit, but um you know, there's all [24:05] these things that can happen to you [24:07] either long term or short term, and it [24:11] affects your abilities, right? But it [24:13] also affects how you identify, like how [24:16] you see yourself, [24:17] >> you know? Um, I know like me going [24:21] through pregnancy [24:23] that changed a lot of how I understood [24:26] my world, how my husband, you know, [24:29] showed up in our relationship. Um, I [24:33] saw alien the alien movie Prometheus and [24:36] when they like did the thing and they [24:38] tried to like she had to get the alien. [24:40] Spoiler alert if you haven't seen it. [24:42] >> It's been like a long time. [24:43] >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, in that [24:46] movie, like first of all, I did not know [24:48] it was an alien movie. I freaking hate [24:50] aliens. I am terrified of aliens. Like, [24:52] we can talk about like never mind. I [24:54] won't do it. I just don't. That is my [24:56] biggest phobia. But the alien like put [24:59] the baby inside of her or whatever, [25:00] right? And she's like, I don't want this [25:02] in here. So, she goes to the machine to [25:04] like get the C-section and like it's [25:06] C-section cuts her and I'm like, no, [25:08] never want that. Nope. Never. Not at [25:10] all. And so in my care instructions on [25:13] the little whiteboard they had, they're [25:14] like, "What do you want us to have?" And [25:15] it's like, "Uh, no poking, no cutting." [25:18] And I did that on purpose because I [25:20] wanted people to ask like [25:23] >> it would make it so it's like, "Why? Why [25:24] is this up here? What does this mean?" [25:26] So that way I could be like, "I don't [25:27] want an epidural. I don't want to have a [25:29] C-section." [25:30] >> And you know what? I ended up with [25:33] >> an epidural and a C-section. And you [25:37] know, I had the greatest um OBGYn [25:41] because, you know, uh TLDDR is that the [25:44] way that my body is shaped after like [25:47] after you don't have babies for like 30 [25:49] some odd years, right? There's another [25:51] identity thing. Sorry if you're watching [25:54] this. I promise this makes sense. So, I [25:57] am 38 this year. 38 this year. When you [26:00] get past like 35 and you get pregnant, [26:02] Chris, do you know what they label your [26:04] pregnancy as? Uh yeah. Isn't it like uh [26:07] I don't want to say like an elderly but [26:08] some some stupid [26:10] >> geriatric geriatric. [26:11] >> You have a geriatric pregnancy. [26:13] >> Yeah. [26:15] >> So this is the thing, right? And uh I I [26:18] was I had to get like special [26:22] ultrasounds, right? And it had to be [26:24] covered because I was at this age and [26:25] all these other things, right? Um and [26:29] that changed how people interacted with [26:31] me, how that pregnancy went. But because [26:34] I spent like so long not pregnant, my [26:37] body's like, I don't know. We have we [26:39] don't open this door. Like what? And I'm [26:42] sorry. Like hopefully if you're [26:44] listening to this, this is a part of [26:45] life. Whatever. Why am I apologizing? [26:47] And so my daughter, like she was having [26:52] uh whenever the contractions were [26:54] happening, it was lowering her heart [26:57] rate. [26:57] >> And [clears throat] it's like I had to [26:58] get over [26:59] >> Yeah. Yeah. [27:00] >> my fear so that she could be born, [27:02] right? I had to have the C-section. And [27:04] I think the greatest gift that my doctor [27:06] gave to me, right, was not trying to [27:08] push me into it, but um when I signed up [27:12] to meet with him, um I have ADHD and I [27:15] had also learned a couple years before [27:17] that that I have generalized anxiety [27:18] disorder. And I was like, "What's Gad?" [27:20] So, because he knew these things, he [27:22] said, "Hey, Taran, I know that this is [27:25] not the thing that you wanted to do. [27:27] This is what we need to do, and I'm [27:29] going to give you time to process it." M [27:32] >> and you know just the fact that he stood [27:34] there holding my hand and he listened to [27:36] me. I was like I didn't want to do this [27:38] and he's like I know like I wanted to [27:39] like just have my baby naturally and it [27:42] gave me the time to accept you know yes [27:44] this is the thing I need to do in order [27:46] for this other person who is now like [27:48] the biggest part of my identity [snorts] [27:50] to be here the person I've been waiting [27:52] like 30 some odd years to see. [27:56] >> Mhm. [27:57] >> So yeah. [27:58] >> Yeah. Well, that and that's a going back [28:00] to the original point too, like not not [28:02] to not to uh downplay your um but but [28:08] the original point of of like the idea [28:10] that uh disability or accessibility [28:13] >> needs are not for people that are [28:16] permanently disabled or permanently have [28:19] uh accessibility needs that it like I I [28:22] remember seeing a couple different uh [28:23] talks uh at like word camps and whatever [28:26] um talking about accessibility and [28:28] talking about with the idea that like if [28:30] the sun is really bright and it's [28:31] shining on your phone and you can't read [28:33] the text on your phone, that is also an [28:35] accessibility issue. Like there's a [28:37] million there's a whole spectrum of of [28:39] things that that count as accessibility. [28:41] It's not just this one thing. It's not [28:44] just the handicap the car that you put [28:46] in your your car and the special parking [28:48] that you space that you have. I mean, [28:49] that's part of it, sure, but there's a [28:52] million different things that I can [28:53] apply to. um and and where we are is [28:57] different day by day. And I think that [28:59] that's definitely a thing that um is is [29:02] an important part of of understanding [29:04] how accessibility applies to uh web [29:07] development. The thing that that brought [29:10] me to the internet, that brought you [29:12] maybe to the internet. [29:13] >> Um a lot of us, a lot of the people that [29:15] might be listening to this. Um yeah. [29:18] >> Yeah. Okay. I kind of want to ask you [29:21] questions now. [29:22] >> Okay. you can ask questions. [29:24] >> Thank you. [laughter] So, I wanted to [29:26] talk about identity stuff, but I also [29:28] want to know like because we know each [29:30] other, but like [29:32] >> were you on AOL chat rooms back in the [29:37] long time ago days? [29:38] >> I didn't do AOL chat rooms. Okay. I [29:41] pated AOL chat rooms. [29:44] >> What? [29:45] >> I did BBS's. In fact, [29:49] >> I uh I paid for a BBS sub subscription [29:54] to a BBS [29:55] >> before I paid for internet access. [29:59] >> What? [30:01] This is a thing. [30:01] >> Yeah. So, so there is a there is um [30:05] >> I I think so I first I first learned [30:07] that these things existed like uh [30:09] through a friend um and I would access [30:12] things on the library and then I saw [30:13] that you could like [30:14] >> oh you just need a phone like a like a [30:17] modem and then you can connect to the [30:19] phone line and then you can dial this [30:20] number and it connects you to this like [30:22] chat room where there's other people and [30:23] there's like a network at the time of [30:26] these local like city-based uh BBS's and [30:31] different places. And so I went to the [30:33] uh the San Francisco one. Um and and [30:36] then eventually um because I think [30:39] server cost and whatever, they started [30:40] charging um for access to their um and [30:43] also I think because it was part of a [30:44] network. Um so it started charging for [30:46] access and so and it was like 20 bucks a [30:48] month or something. So I was paying 20 [30:50] bucks a month to to connect via you know [30:54] telephoneep to this one specific BBS [30:57] server. um before I realized a uh that [31:03] you could do that over like I think [31:04] Telnet or something. [31:06] >> Yeah, I know TNTE. Yeah. [31:07] >> Uh which I I learned later that you [31:09] could do that over TNET. Um but at the [31:11] time it was like direct dial to the [31:13] server. Um and I paid for that for at [31:15] least a couple months before I got my [31:17] actual first internet access. And when I [31:18] got internet access and I realized you [31:20] could just do that over TNET, uh then I [31:22] was doing that all the time. Um, but [31:23] yeah, so I I never did AOL chat rooms [31:26] because I was in the old school [31:28] textbased like PBS rooms. [31:30] >> Oh, okay. Okay. So, [snorts] [31:33] and the reason why I know about Telnet [31:35] is because Okay. So, for my brain, [31:37] right, the internet kind of started with [31:40] America Online. [31:41] >> Mhm. [31:41] >> And then there was Earthlink. [31:44] >> Yeah. I had I had Earthlink. Um, my [31:46] parents used America Online, [31:48] >> but I Yeah, I my the first thing that I [31:50] could and I think it was because it was [31:52] in like a like a PC magazine or [31:54] something. It was like, you know, for [31:55] for ISP. So, I'm like, okay, this one I [31:58] didn't want to do AOL. And I had a [32:00] friend that did CompuServe. [32:02] >> Um, that's right. CompuServe. [32:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. [32:05] >> Um, and I was like, I don't want to do [32:07] either of those things. And I I did [32:10] figure out pretty early on that you [32:11] didn't need to cuz like at the time AOL [32:15] presented itself like this is the only [32:17] way you can access the internet. This is [32:19] this is the gateway to the internet. You [32:21] have to do it through our weird browser [32:24] application that does all the things. [32:27] >> Um and like no actually actually there's [32:29] stuff that's already on your computer [32:31] like a browser that can do this and your [32:33] computer already has like an email thing [32:34] and like [32:36] >> oh man I remember getting Earthlink. [32:37] Yeah. and is like, "Wait, you can just [32:40] get online? [32:41] >> You can just do it." Yeah. [32:42] >> Oh my god. [32:44] >> I also I also did tech support. My my [32:47] first Okay. My first Okay. [32:49] >> Was my first Yeah. My my second my [32:51] second real job. My first real job was [32:53] retail uh after college. Um and I I left [32:56] retail uh because it sucks. Uh [33:00] [laughter] and and I did tech support [33:02] because like I'm a a nerd and I know [33:04] computer stuff and so I could probably [33:06] do tech support. Um, and so my first [33:08] tech support job was for MSN. [33:10] >> So again, [33:12] >> yeah, back to back to the dialup stuff [33:14] and like so it's like a different flavor [33:17] and like also MSN was awful but slightly [33:19] maybe less awful. I maybe [33:22] >> I don't know. [33:23] >> Maybe [33:25] >> um what was I going to ask you about? [33:26] Oh, so about Telnet. I really want to [33:28] talk about TNET because I never get to [33:29] talk about TNT, right? Um, so I know [33:32] about TNET because when I was in the AOL [33:35] chats, right, I learned about roleplay [33:37] games and stuff, right? And I got to [33:38] play like games like, you know, Yasha [33:40] and stuff, right? Just making up my own [33:42] story lines with people because I loved [33:43] writing. And then I also love sci-fi [33:45] books. And I read all of these books by [33:48] uh Ann McCaffrey, The Dragon Riders of [33:50] P. I've read like a bunch of other [33:51] stuff. But I when I think about it, that [33:54] is another reason why I got into code [33:56] because I joined the P world mush. [33:59] >> Uh, M if people don't know what a mush [34:01] is, it's a multi-user shared [34:02] hallucination. It's a place where people [34:05] used to go and we used to do like [34:07] roleplay and like come up with [34:08] characters and scenes and like we had to [34:10] like organize everything and everyone. [34:12] And I was a dolphin writer as one of my [34:14] characters. I had uh St. Dis and [34:18] Anastasian. They had like very I got [34:21] dragged once. I was like a 16-year-old [34:24] girl getting dragged for because I [34:26] would describe my character's eyes as [34:27] like emeraldics. [34:29] >> [laughter] [34:30] >> I had found the forum post and then I [34:32] showed up and I was like, "Hi, it's me. [34:34] Yes, I know that I'm not really good, [34:36] but I'm trying to get better at [34:37] writing." And they're like, "Oh my god, [34:39] like oh my god, it's [clears throat] so [34:41] great to see you here." And it's like, [34:42] "Yeah, yeah, I I saw it. I just woke [34:45] up." But there was that. But as a dra as [34:47] a I ended up being a dragon rider and a [34:50] werewoman. Um I was a gold rider. So if [34:54] you don't know about per uh if a gold [34:56] dragon chooses you, you are going to be [34:58] one of the people that becomes a [34:59] werewoman and that leaves an area. And [35:01] so I got to be like in character as one, [35:05] right? And I will never forget like the [35:06] day that like my dragon hatched and like [35:08] it touched my mind in the game, right? [35:10] And I was like I got chosen and my [35:12] dragon is so beautiful and she was uh [35:15] the gilded lily. That was her dragon [35:17] description. I think I still have it [35:18] somewhere. If I find it, I will send it [35:20] to you for show notes. Yeah, back in the [35:22] day [35:22] >> I learned how to code my dolphin. [35:24] >> Oh, nice. Yeah, [35:26] >> I learned object oriented programming [35:27] through being a dolphin writer [35:29] >> back in the day like cuz all of that [35:31] stuff is text based so there wasn't like [35:33] Yeah. So like [35:34] >> it was [35:36] >> uh we use terms like multi-user shared [35:39] hallucination. Now there are actually [35:40] like things that legitimately like could [35:42] be described as doing that for real. [35:44] >> Um arguably SOAR is a multi-user shared [35:47] hallucination. But um I like that uh But [35:51] uh yeah, and there's multi-user [35:52] dungeons. There's MUDS. I think there [35:54] was a couple MUDs that were operating [35:55] out of the BBS's that I was doing. But [35:58] yeah, that's that's that's real old [36:00] school. [36:01] >> Um [36:02] >> that I think that's a that maybe is a [36:04] segue maybe uh into uh you mentioned [36:08] earlier uh at the beginning of the show [36:10] that that you uh are a content creator [36:13] with capital C's. Um [36:16] >> I guess so. Yes. [laughter] [36:18] Um, talk about uh talk about doing that [36:22] stuff. I mean, I feel like that kind of [36:24] comes out of like an extension of, [36:26] >> you know, Devril is often kind of like [36:28] the face of of the company in very in a [36:30] lot of ways. Um, [36:33] >> and content creation is often part of [36:34] the work that we do, but like you're [36:36] doing it for like [36:39] >> not just like representing a company, [36:41] but representing yourself or a version [36:44] of yourself. like talk about getting [36:45] into that sort of stuff more. [36:47] >> Yeah. It's really funny because um [36:49] before I was on here, right, Chris sent [36:51] me a message. He's like, "You should [36:53] apply to be on my podcast." And I was [36:54] like, "I don't know. What would I talk [36:55] about?" And he's like, "Whatever you [36:56] want to." And I'm like, "Okay." And as [36:58] I'm filling out the form, I'm like, [36:59] "Wait, should I be on here as Taran [37:02] Alarez or should I be on here as Nine [37:04] Lives Black Cat?" And then I realized, [37:06] oh, I do have something to talk about. [37:08] Like just all the ways that identity [37:11] forms and is shaped by like for me, [37:17] I don't identify as things first. I do I [37:20] feel I want and then I find out [37:23] eventually that that's an identity, [37:24] right? Um I did not know that people [37:27] paid people to make websites. I remember [37:29] that. I wanted to be a school teacher [37:31] cuz I wanted to help people. And then I [37:34] learned how to code and people were [37:35] like, you know, people will pay you to [37:36] make websites for them. I'm like, why [37:37] would anyone do that? That's weird. Um, [37:40] and going into wait, I lost my thread. [37:45] Hold on. You got it. So, okay. So, I [37:50] tend to do before I identify and I lost [37:54] it again. Come on, dude. Okay, hold on. [37:56] Do before I identify. [37:59] Your question to me was [38:02] >> uh getting into uh content creation. [38:05] >> Oh yeah. Okay. [38:07] >> So I do before I identify, right? And I [38:11] when I lost my job at uh GitLab, which [38:14] is like a whole story, right? Uh see it [38:17] on some other podcasts, not this one. Um [38:19] but I lost that job and I needed [38:22] something to do. But I also realized [38:24] like a lot of what I had been doing or [38:28] how I was identified was by what other [38:31] people told me, right? Like they gave me [38:34] titles. [38:35] >> They told me at one point somebody was [38:37] like, "You can just pick whatever title [38:38] you want." I'm like, "I'm sorry, what?" [38:39] And they're like, "We will pay you money [38:41] just and you can have whatever title you [38:42] want." And so I actually had to think [38:45] about what it was I wanted to be called. [38:47] Like what label did I want to put on the [38:49] thing that I wanted to do for someone? [38:52] Um, and then when I lost that job, I was [38:54] like, well, [38:55] I know that I enjoy teaching people. I [38:58] love being a developer advocate. I loved [39:00] putting together the materials and [39:02] facilitating trainings and stuff. [39:04] [snorts] And [39:05] I realized that with the skill set that [39:08] I had, I could do my own business. I [39:11] could run my own business. Like [39:13] >> often when I was working with people, I [39:16] was telling them, well, this is what the [39:17] problem is. like they would they would [39:19] tell me like here's all these things [39:20] that we know are going wrong but we [39:22] don't know how to solve it. [39:23] >> And so I realized like that's that's [39:26] what people call a consultant. Like [39:28] sometimes I will Google what is the [39:29] person that does this this this because [39:31] being able to have a label and being [39:33] able to be like I I tell people I'm a [39:35] technical marketing consultant. And so [39:38] some of them like for me I don't I feel [39:42] like saying technical marketing together [39:44] right tells people I help you sell [39:46] things but I'm helping you with the [39:48] technical side of this problem. And then [39:50] consultant means I don't necessarily [39:52] work for you but I work with you. [39:55] >> Right? Those things communicate what it [39:58] is that I do and it gives a person an [40:01] identity that they can attach to it. And [40:04] so when I knew that I was going to be [40:06] unemployed for a while and that I wanted [40:08] to not like just jump into the next job [40:10] as I had done for like many years, [40:14] especially like being a mom, I wanted to [40:16] be able to define my own path. I was [40:18] like, "Well, there are people who stream [40:20] on Twitch and I watch Twitch streams and [40:23] [clears throat] [40:24] sorry [40:25] >> and [40:27] I can help them with things [40:29] >> and I already have like all this [40:31] equipment from when I was a developer [40:32] advocate, right? [40:33] >> I can stream. I've been streaming. So, I [40:36] just started streaming. I learned more [40:38] about like how to put setups together [40:40] and I started playing games with people [40:43] in between. So, um, so on Twitch, I am [40:48] Nine Lives Black Cat. I brought my name [40:50] back, reclaimed it, right? Um, I freak [40:53] out every time somebody Googles it and [40:55] they're like, "Holy crap, you work at [40:56] GitLab." And I'm like, "Do not mention [40:57] my real life in this chat ever again. [40:59] [laughter] [41:00] Don't do it." I'm getting more [41:01] comfortable with it, right? And I'm [41:03] going to talk about fragmented [41:04] identities, too. That would be cool. I [41:06] know we don't have a lot of time. Um, [41:08] but you know, I ended up doing content [41:13] creation [41:14] as a side effect of this is what I want [41:19] to do. This is what I want to give to [41:21] the world and to like the community. I [41:24] think that's why I'm so I'm still in [41:26] open source. I keep getting sucked back [41:27] into open source. Um, is because it's [41:31] not about like who I am, it's like what [41:33] I want to do and what I want to give [41:35] into the world. And so that's how I [41:37] ended up being a Twitch streamer. Um, I [41:39] am what is it? I am the cozy crash out [41:41] co-working streamer. Like there's a [41:43] whole thing. And we have our bad luck [41:46] battalion uh in Nine Lives Black Cats [41:48] Twitch chat. I've actually been doing a [41:50] lot of stuff to prepare us for next year [41:53] this year when you see this because we [41:55] just hit 500 followers. Um, which is big [41:57] to me, right? It's not like a big [41:59] number, but for me, I'm intentionally [42:01] building this community of people that [42:03] want to have fun and play games and be [42:05] silly and also like want to get [42:06] done. Like those are the core of like [42:10] the identity of the battalion and we [42:13] like to say that we make our own look. [42:14] So yeah, that's why I do content [42:17] creation. That's that's definitely uh a [42:20] far cry from like the traditional sort [42:23] of uh [42:26] be like launch a Twitch stream and get a [42:29] million followers and like you know like [42:32] intentionally building a community of [42:34] people that like [42:37] >> like like just building it with [42:38] intention, right? like figuring out like [42:40] who you want who you want to be [42:43] >> uh include and who you and like [42:46] cultivating that. Um [42:48] >> what sorts of things do you do to help [42:50] foster that community growth and and the [42:54] intention that goes into it? [42:57] >> I know I spend a lot of time thinking [42:59] about who are the people that need this. [43:03] Like [43:05] I know for myself as a person with ADHD, [43:07] having somebody that I can body double [43:09] with that helps me to get things done. [43:11] And I know that [43:15] I I don't do silent co-working, right? [43:17] Um I chat with them throughout it. Um I [43:20] keep people encouraged. I share, you [43:22] know, the struggles that I've been [43:23] through. I was diagnosed late in my life [43:25] with ADHD. Um, I also spend time [43:31] like I'm not just working on my stuff. I [43:33] encourage the viewers to come and like [43:35] ask me questions. It's like, well, how [43:37] do I do this? You know, I am a streamer [43:39] and like that's sometimes against like [43:41] streamer etiquette to mention that you [43:42] stream. It's like, if you're a streamer, [43:43] please come to me with a problem cuz I [43:45] love fixing problems. Um, and we will [43:47] fix things online. So, sorry, we will [43:50] fix things live. Um, sometimes people [43:53] will send their issues and then we try [43:54] to get that uh solved there. Um, to that [43:57] end, we use a co-working bot that is a [44:00] super sweet bot. It's really cool. It [44:02] sets a pomodoro timer and it keeps us [44:04] focused and moving and it it's really [44:06] cool. Um, one of the things that we're [44:08] going to be doing this next year because [44:10] the nature of my work has changed. We're [44:12] doing like [44:13] >> 5 hours of co-working from like 10:00 [44:15] a.m. until 3:00 p.m. And it used to be [44:18] when I was unemployed, right? we would [44:19] do two hours of co-working and then we [44:21] we would have like okay you finish your [44:23] task you have two hours to like play [44:25] games like you're rewarding yourself [44:27] because you ate the frog. [44:28] >> Um now we're doing a change where and I [44:32] think that it'll work and if it doesn't [44:34] we can always try something else which [44:35] is important [44:36] >> like when you get perfectionism in your [44:39] head you got to say those things out [44:40] loud. Um, we will be doing something [44:44] where in the evenings where we play [44:46] gameplay, we're going to acknowledge [44:48] like here's all the people that came and [44:49] co-work today and here's what they got [44:51] done. [44:52] >> Like it's not just about games. Like we [44:55] we are all of ourselves. We're not just [44:57] gamers. We're not just people that have [44:58] jobs. Um, and it's kind of [45:03] it's it's kind of tracking along with my [45:05] journey and understanding that like I [45:08] don't have to fragment myself. I don't [45:10] have to fragment my identity. Like I can [45:12] show up as my full self and still be [45:16] valid. And I realized that that's really [45:18] important for me to model to the people [45:20] that are following me cuz like that's a [45:24] type of leadership too, being your whole [45:25] self. So, [45:26] >> well, I feel like that is an excellent [45:29] uh note to end on. Before we go, Taran, [45:33] where can people find you online? [45:35] >> Oh my gosh, pretty much all over the [45:37] place. where [45:39] >> a little bit a little bit. Um, I am on [45:41] Twitch TV. Twitch t [45:43] twitch.tv/nlifewackcat. [45:46] Um, I'm also on Instagram under all [45:47] those things. So, if you see nine lives [45:49] black on drupal.org, yes, that's me. [45:51] Twitch, yes, that's me. Instagram, yes, [45:52] that's me. Tik Tok, yes, that's me. None [45:55] of that stuff is my fault. It is all of [45:57] the audience's fault if you see that. [45:59] Um, I am also at nlbcworks.com. That's [46:02] my technical marketing uh that we do. [46:05] Sorry, that's my technical marketing [46:07] consulting firm. It feels so weird [46:08] saying that. It's like this is the place [46:10] where I hung my shingle and then I'm on [46:12] LinkedIn and I'm also on X. [46:16] Not that much. [46:17] >> And I feel like I feel like there was a [46:20] there was some sort of a [46:23] what's it called? Um reality thing that [46:25] you were doing. Oh my god. Kind of [46:27] thing. [46:27] >> I have too many identities. Yes. Um I [46:30] have also been a contestant on these [46:33] live reality games. They are like an [46:35] amateur version of like the two that I [46:38] was on are Olympia which is kind of like [46:40] the challenge. Uh I am on season 3 of [46:43] that one. [snorts] None of that is my [46:46] fault. That's all I had to say. And then [46:48] I am in season two of Destination Mole [46:51] which is part of the Destination [46:52] Adventures brand where I am now one of [46:54] the heads of videography. We'll I'll [46:57] show notes. There's too many identities. [46:59] I'm so sorry Chris. I'm like hexadimal [47:01] from reboot, right? Right. [laughter] [47:06] >> Uh well, thanks again uh Taran for [47:08] coming on. Uh thank you all for [47:10] listening or watching this in the future [47:12] uh or in the past or whenever it is that [47:14] you're watching this. And to everyone at [47:15] all, uh we'll see you on the internet. [47:18] Bye. [47:22] [music] [47:29] [music]