Episode 19 Carl Alexander - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Episode 19: Carl Alexander 🔗 **Source:** [Episode 19: Carl Alexander](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNTQUh4_Y70) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, programming, serverless, community] > author: Chris Wiegman > source: Community Code Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNTQUh4_Y70 > date created: 2024-12-19 12:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Episode 19: Carl Alexander - From Object-Oriented WordPress to Serverless Pioneer >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider serverless for scaling challenges — "deploy scale and sleep" philosophy #serverless - [H2] Build community spaces like Discord for developer engagement — traditional spaces are disappearing #community - [H3] Share journey transparently including struggles — builds authentic connections #marketing ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Emir - Serverless WordPress Platform](https://emirapp.com) - [Carl Alexander's Blog](https://carlexander.ca) ## 📝 Summary - WordPress developer Carl Alexander shares his journey from object-oriented programming advocate to serverless platform creator - Started programming at age 7-8, fell into WordPress development through agency work, became known as "the object-oriented guy" in 2010s - Built Emir, a serverless DevOps platform for WordPress, addressing scaling and maintenance pain points - Discusses challenges of marketing, community building, and maintaining authentic transparency while building a business - Emphasizes that serverless is about reducing developer concern with infrastructure, not eliminating servers ## 📖 Main Content Carl Alexander represents a unique voice in WordPress development - someone who has successfully pivoted from highly technical educational content to solving infrastructure problems. His journey illustrates the evolution of developer needs and community dynamics over the past decade. Starting as a computer engineering graduate in 2006, Carl entered WordPress development somewhat accidentally when traditional programming interviews didn't work out. He quickly became known for teaching object-oriented programming principles to a largely procedural WordPress community, publishing articles and eventually a self-published book that generated over $32,000 in sales. His current focus on serverless technology through Emir addresses a fundamental shift in developer expectations. Rather than wanting to manage servers, CPUs, and RAM allocation, developers increasingly want what Carl calls "deploy, scale, and sleep" - the ability to focus purely on code while infrastructure handles itself. The conversation reveals broader challenges in developer community building, particularly how traditional gathering spaces like the Advanced WordPress Facebook group have disappeared, making authentic marketing and community engagement significantly more difficult. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and WordPress serverless association - Key idea: Carl is known as "the serverless guy" but was previously "the object-oriented guy" in WordPress - Evidence: "I think now I'm like the serverless guy but I was like I in the 2010s I was like the object-oriented guy basically" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=150) — [H2] Early programming and robotics background - Key idea: Started programming and robotics at age 7-8, built animations that controlled real devices - Evidence: "I think I started programming. I was like seven or eight years old... I basically built animations with the thing and then the animations would control like uh I had like a hydroplane one year" #### ⏱️ [05:45](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=345) — [H2] College and early career path - Key idea: Computer engineering in 2006 offered limited career paths compared to today's opportunities - Evidence: "back in 2006 you know like so much of what you can do today wasn't possible right... you couldn't imagine today that you could just design a chip send it to China and and get that done" #### ⏱️ [08:20](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=500) — [H2] Accidental entry into WordPress development - Key idea: Failed traditional programming interviews but got hired for WordPress work, learned on the job - Evidence: "everybody thinks I'm like great at programming but I could not pass a a programming interview to save my life... they were like 'do you know anything about WordPress or something like that?' I was like 'No, but I'll learn anything'" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=735) — [H1] Teaching object-oriented programming in WordPress - Key idea: Challenged the conventional wisdom that OOP couldn't work with WordPress by building necessary primitives - Evidence: "people would try to implement things like classes and then they didn't really understand why classes exists... WordPress is largely um procedural so trying to repackage this in a more object-oriented way requires a lot of high level architectural thinking" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=930) — [H2] Community platforms and marketing challenges - Key idea: Advanced WordPress Facebook group provided crucial platform for sharing knowledge that no longer exists - Evidence: "Matt Cromwell was like uh the admin of like advanced WordPress group... he was a real ally uh at that time and I think that's one of my struggles now around marketing um is those spaces don't really exist" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=1125) — [H2] Self-published book success - Key idea: Generated $32,000 in lifetime sales from niche object-oriented programming book through content marketing - Evidence: "I think the lifetime sales of it is like $32,000... for a niche book on how to do object it's not even how to do object-oriented programming in WordPress" #### ⏱️ [22:00](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=1320) — [H2] Modern marketing and community building struggles - Key idea: Traditional community spaces have disappeared, making authentic marketing much more difficult - Evidence: "those spaces don't really exist... I just don't know where my people hang out anymore... most of us don't really want to hang out on the social networks anymore" #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=1510) — [H1] Transparent business reporting approach - Key idea: Publishes detailed business reports every 2-4 weeks for 5 years to show real entrepreneurship challenges - Evidence: "I've been writing a report every two weeks to four between two and four weeks for five years... People shouldn't know it's it's hard... I've been working on this since 2019 and... it's still hard" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=1710) — [H2] Cost of marketing vs personal well-being - Key idea: Effective marketing on social platforms conflicts with mental health and ADHD management - Evidence: "it sucks that like the right thing to do for marketing hurts you so much... it triggers my ADHD. Uh like I scroll. I just it's distracting" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=1965) — [H1] Serverless definition and philosophy - Key idea: Serverless is about reducing sphere of concern, not eliminating servers - developers don't want to manage infrastructure - Evidence: "the point with serverless is... it's about your sphere of concern, right? Like how much do you want to care about servers... Do you want to know what how much RAM you need to how many CPUs you need? And the answer is like increasingly... the answer is no" #### ⏱️ [36:20](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=2180) — [H1] Deploy, scale, sleep philosophy - Key idea: Developers want to deploy code and not worry about infrastructure until AWS-level outages occur - Evidence: "deploy scale and sleep that's it... when you deploy in Verscell the only time you have to worry with the with anything is if AWS is going down basically" #### ⏱️ [40:15](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=2415) — [H2] Scaling challenges in traditional hosting - Key idea: Traditional hosting pricing pages confuse users and don't address real-world traffic spikes - Evidence: "what if those checkouts are in the next five minutes?... it's very opaque... That's why like people are just okay well why am I dealing with this I'll just go pay Shopify" #### ⏱️ [43:30](https://youtu.be/uNTQUh4_Y70?t=2610) — [H1] Customer expectations evolution - Key idea: People no longer want to see server specifications in pricing pages, expect SaaS-like reliability - Evidence: "We're at a point now... where like the idea of a server is just not something people want to read about in a pricing page at all... they want a site and they want to pay X amount of month for their site" ## 📚 References - [Emir Serverless Platform](https://emirapp.com) - [Carl Alexander's Blog](https://carlexander.ca) - [Emir Public Dashboard](https://emirapp.com/reports) - [Community Code Podcast](https://communitycodes.dev) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Carl Alexander evolved from teaching object-oriented programming in WordPress to building serverless infrastructure solutions, driven by his own desire to avoid server management responsibilities - The WordPress community's gathering spaces have fragmented, making authentic marketing and knowledge sharing significantly more challenging than in the 2010s era of focused Facebook groups - Modern developers and business owners expect SaaS-like reliability where they pay a monthly fee and never worry about infrastructure, scaling, or technical specifications ## 📰 Newsletter **From OOP Teacher to Serverless Pioneer: Carl Alexander's WordPress Journey** This week's Community Code podcast features Carl Alexander, whose evolution from "the object-oriented guy" to "the serverless guy" in WordPress reflects broader shifts in developer expectations and community dynamics. **Key Takeaway:** The WordPress ecosystem is experiencing a fundamental shift where developers and site owners no longer want to think about servers, RAM, or PHP workers - they want "deploy, scale, and sleep" reliability. Carl's journey from teaching complex OOP concepts to building Emir (a serverless WordPress platform) illustrates how even experienced system administrators prefer infrastructure that "just works" without manual intervention. **Community Challenge:** Traditional learning and networking spaces like the Advanced WordPress Facebook group have disappeared, making authentic community building much harder. Carl suggests Discord communities as potential alternatives for meaningful developer connections. **Transparency Matters:** Carl publishes detailed business reports every 2-4 weeks, sharing both successes and struggles. This authentic approach builds trust but requires balancing marketing effectiveness with personal well-being. Resources: [Emir Platform](https://emirapp.com/), [Carl's Blog](https://carlexander.ca), [WordPress Hosting Guide](https://wordpress.org/hosting/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create "deploy, scale, sleep" messaging campaigns around serverless benefits and peace of mind - Education: Develop workshops on serverless WordPress architecture, migration strategies, and cost-benefit analysis - Developer experience: Build migration tools, documentation for traditional hosting to serverless transitions - Developer marketing: Share authentic journey content, transparent business metrics, real-world scaling stories - Community management: Establish Discord communities, moderated spaces for technical serverless discussions #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate serverless-friendly architecture improvements, function-based deployment patterns - Core Performance: Profile serverless execution patterns, cold start optimization strategies - Community: Support alternative community building platforms beyond traditional social media - Training: Create serverless WordPress curriculum, migration best practices, cost estimation guides - Documentation: Document serverless hosting options, trade-offs, implementation patterns - Hosting: Develop serverless hosting partnership programs, transparent pricing models - Meta: Evaluate serverless infrastructure for WordPress.org properties #### Community - Maintainers: Provide serverless deployment templates, infrastructure-as-code examples for projects - Contributors: Create beginner-friendly serverless contribution paths, testing environments - Sponsors: Fund serverless WordPress infrastructure research, open-source tooling development - Ecosystem: Coordinate between hosting providers on serverless standards, portability ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Developers increasingly prefer infrastructure abstraction over direct server management control - Traditional WordPress community gathering spaces are fragmenting, requiring new engagement strategies - Transparent business reporting builds stronger community relationships than polished marketing - Serverless adoption in WordPress will accelerate as hosting providers abstract infrastructure complexity ### 📊 Methodology - Survey WordPress developers on infrastructure management preferences and pain points - Analyze hosting provider pricing page evolution and customer support ticket categories - Track community engagement metrics across different platform types (Discord vs Facebook vs Slack) - Measure serverless WordPress adoption rates and performance characteristics ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress core architecture better support serverless deployment patterns? - What community platforms will replace traditional Facebook groups for technical knowledge sharing? - How do transparency and authenticity in business communications affect long-term community building? ### 🔮 Future Research - Impact of serverless architecture on WordPress plugin and theme development patterns - Community platform effectiveness for technical education and networking - Psychological costs of social media marketing for neurodivergent entrepreneurs ### 💡 Implications - Practice: WordPress developers should prepare for serverless-first deployment strategies and tooling - Policy: Hosting providers need transparent, usage-based pricing models without infrastructure complexity - Education: Technical training should emphasize architectural patterns over server administration - Community: New platforms and engagement strategies needed to replace fragmented social media spaces ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 9th-10th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Podcast format limits visual elements - Improve: Architecture diagrams showing traditional vs serverless WordPress deployment patterns #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio interview format with natural conversation flow - Improve: Chapter markers, key concept summaries, related podcast recommendations #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich analogies, personal anecdotes, clear technical explanations - Improve: Glossary of serverless terms, comparison frameworks #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: References to hands-on coding, deployment experiences - Improve: Step-by-step serverless migration tutorials, sandbox environments #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear problem-solution frameworks, cost-benefit analysis - Improve: Decision trees for hosting choices, quantified performance comparisons #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community-focused discussion, networking challenges - Improve: Discussion prompts, Discord community links, peer connection opportunities #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual journey narrative, self-directed learning references - Improve: Self-assessment tools, private reflection questions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress community evolution - Improve: Community lifecycle analogies, platform ecosystem comparisons ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio content is inherently accessible to screen reader users - Improve: Provide detailed transcript with speaker identification, timestamp navigation #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls support keyboard navigation - Improve: Custom transcript navigation, jump-to-section functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Video player interface meets basic contrast requirements - Improve: High contrast mode for video controls, customizable transcript styling #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Video player supports standard browser zoom - Improve: Transcript should reflow properly at 200% zoom, maintain readability #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available covering all spoken content - Improve: Time-synced captions, speaker identification, sound effect descriptions #### Forms and interactions - Present --- ## Full Transcript [00:13] [music] [00:18] Carl Alexander talks fast and a lot of [00:20] stuff he talks about touches on subjects [00:22] that a lot of developers hope to never [00:24] have to think about. I've seen him talks [00:27] in the WordPress space and known him as [00:29] the serverless guy, having founded Emir, [00:31] a serverless DevOps platform that takes [00:33] the headache out of managing your own [00:35] AWS infrastructure. But Carl says this [00:37] is actually his second act. In this [00:40] episode, we get to meet the guy behind [00:41] the full-size stand-up poster and book [00:43] on object-oriented programming to talk [00:45] about his early start in programming and [00:47] robotics and how he accidentally fell [00:49] into WordPress development and the [00:51] challenges of building a business from [00:53] the ground up while being bad at [00:55] marketing. If you've never met Carl in [00:57] person, buckle up. I think you're going [00:59] to enjoy this one. [01:05] Welcome to Community Code, Community End [01:08] Code, the podcast where we talk to the [01:10] human beings behind the commits. I'm [01:11] here today with Carl Alexander, a long [01:14] time uh WordPress developer, but really [01:18] if you know Carl, if you've seen Carl [01:20] talk, uh if you have done anything like [01:23] that, uh you've probably associated him [01:27] with uh the concept of serverless for [01:30] WordPress. And uh we'll talk a little [01:33] bit about that I think. Uh but Carl uh [01:36] >> welcome and um [01:38] >> yeah tell us about yourself. [01:40] >> Oh my goodness. I mean yeah I think now [01:43] I'm like the serverless guy but I was [01:46] like I in the 2010s I was like the [01:49] object-oriented guy basically. I wrote [01:51] like this [01:52] >> uh I was writing all these articles on [01:54] how to do proper object-oriented [01:56] programming with WordPress. I even wrote [01:58] a book on it. Yeah. [01:59] >> So, it's like it's like my second act, [02:02] if you will, inside the inside the [02:04] WordPress community. [02:06] >> But, yeah. No, I I mean, my trajectory [02:09] has been long. I I I think I started [02:11] programming. I was like seven or eight [02:13] years old or something. And then I [02:16] around that time I also did my first [02:18] robotics project. Uh so, I've been like [02:20] involved in tech, you know, from a young [02:23] age too. Like same thing with the [02:25] serverless. When I give a talk on I give [02:27] a talk on that I say like I've been [02:29] assistant men for almost 30 years you [02:33] know like I've been playing with servers [02:34] since I'm in my teens you know so it's [02:37] just like uh so yeah I've been around [02:40] but yeah in the WordPress space that's [02:42] like my second act right now is the [02:44] stuff but I I yeah there's a lot of [02:48] stuff I just get hyperfocused on a [02:50] couple of topics like that's that's one [02:53] of them. The other one we were talking [02:56] just a bit pre-show. I've been trying to [02:58] do pitches for work camps on uh like [03:02] mental mental health stuff. Like not [03:04] necessarily uh like depression, but just [03:06] like how to, you know, like I've I [03:10] recently I don't have an official [03:12] diagnosis, but like I'm definitely [03:13] autistic. I have ADHD. We were talking [03:16] about that. I was talking I I basically [03:18] always have a drink because I I learned [03:21] early in my life that nobody would get [03:23] upset at you uh if you were holding a [03:25] drink or always drinking something [03:27] instead of like playing with your hands [03:29] even though I have like a fidget a [03:30] Captain America fidget toy and that [03:32] stuff. Um so I've been applying work [03:35] camp with that as well. Um but haven't [03:38] done a talk on that yet. But it's it's [03:41] like it I talk a lot about it as well. [03:43] um just like less um I'm less vocal [03:47] about it and it's less techy, [03:49] >> you know, like serverless kind of like [03:51] sexy, you know, like they're like [03:53] serverless are there servers with [03:56] serverless and it's like uh and all that [03:59] stuff. So I get more talks about that, [04:01] but I'm really passionate about the [04:02] second thing too. [04:04] >> Yeah. Um let's let's start at the [04:06] beginning. Uh you talked about uh you [04:10] mentioned that you you got into [04:12] programming and robotics really early [04:14] like was computers and technology always [04:17] just sort of around you and and how how [04:20] did that sort of cultivate? [04:22] >> Oh yeah. Um, my dad got a computer [04:28] pretty early on that was by Phillips, [04:31] >> if you believe, which for the longest [04:33] time, I don't know how much people know [04:35] about Phillips, but basically like I in [04:37] my mind, Phillips was always like razors [04:39] and like, but they're a huge they're a [04:43] huge huge huge conglomerate and they, [04:46] you know, ASML, which everybody knows [04:48] now for the chips, spawns from Phillips. [04:50] Uh, Nvidia spawns from Phillips. Uh it's [04:54] just it's again I didn't know how much [04:56] they detect but I still was like a [04:59] Philips computer why isn't it like a [05:01] Huert Packard like or like a you know um [05:05] compact if you remember compact computer [05:07] or stuff like that. [05:08] >> So we had a we had a computer lab at my [05:11] uh [05:13] um elementary school. Um, sorry. [05:16] Sometimes I learn I I think of the [05:18] French words, but basically uh but yeah, [05:21] in elementary school, so I did like the [05:23] robotics project there and that was with [05:25] they were Apple actually. They were [05:26] Apple and then it became IBM, but it was [05:29] with Apple. It was like Logo. Did you [05:30] ever play Logo? Like use Logo, [05:33] >> I think. So I It's [05:34] >> It was like the little turtle. So it's [05:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [05:37] >> instructions and stuff. So like I [05:39] basically built animations with the [05:42] thing and then the animations would [05:44] control like uh I had like a hydroplane [05:47] one year. So we had like a a tub with [05:49] water and it had propellers and one year [05:51] was like a ferris wheel and all that [05:54] stuff. So I would have the animation [05:56] control the real thing. [05:59] >> Did like a radio interview at some point [06:00] about it. So [06:02] >> I did that. Then I went to high school [06:04] and in high school I kind of fell off [06:05] for a bit. Uh, I did some basic and some [06:09] 3D stuff, but a bit of web. I missed my [06:13] my calling. Like I read all many all [06:15] these people that got into web early and [06:17] I was just like not really into it and [06:20] and all that. And then college was like [06:22] computer engineering. So it was [06:24] >> more hardware. I did computer science. I [06:27] did the more computer science option, [06:30] but I didn't do that much programming. I [06:32] I kind of fell off for a little bit. Um, [06:34] and then I came back to it. Like my [06:36] first job was in a law firm. Like I did [06:38] like I did cismin stuff for a law firm [06:42] and then I started building tools for [06:44] them like um and that's actually a [06:47] really important point is I love [06:50] building tools. [06:51] >> Um which is a bit like how the [06:53] serverless and a lot of my projects have [06:55] gone but I like building tools and I [06:57] just realized that I like programming so [06:59] I went back into it and that's been the [07:01] journey. Well not quite. I did agency, [07:04] then I was going to do MBA, then I [07:06] realized I like programming more than [07:07] being a business person. So, I went So, [07:11] but I always joke because I applied to [07:13] Harvard and Stanford and all those [07:15] places because I had pretty high grades, [07:16] but I didn't get in and I'm glad that I [07:20] didn't basically. Uh, it would have been [07:22] a very different life for me and I like [07:24] programming too much to to get. So, [07:26] anyways, it always drives me back. [07:28] That's like the kind of [laughter] [07:29] that's like kind of my journey. It's [07:31] always like I try to get off like I I [07:34] kind of get dragged out of programming [07:36] in some way and my heart is really in it [07:40] and just like I just kind of follow my [07:43] heart a lot in my life and it just [07:45] brings me back here. That's why [07:48] >> I love the WordPress community. I [07:50] started teaching programming even though [07:51] like a lot of the stuff I was teaching [07:53] was very high-end [07:55] uh from the get-go. Like I was just, you [07:58] know, I used to have these slides that [08:00] were like, "You lost me at high. I'm [08:01] Carl, you know, which was like the first [08:03] slide and I was just, it was just there [08:05] to be like ask questions, don't be [08:07] intimidated." [08:08] >> Yeah. [08:09] >> I'm like, a lot of people are here are [08:11] self-taught. Um, and don't have like a [08:14] formal computer science background. And [08:16] I'm just here to like explain things to [08:18] you like how to do them, how to do them [08:21] differently [08:22] um in a way that makes sense because a [08:24] lot of the problem with object-oriented [08:26] programming in WordPress was just that [08:28] people would try to implement things [08:30] like classes and then they didn't really [08:33] understand why classes exists. Yep. or [08:36] had to use them and or like what they [08:39] were supposed to do and they would make [08:41] stuff and then they were like well this [08:43] doesn't feel good and also it like I I [08:46] don't feel like it helps and it it [08:49] didn't because they weren't it and it [08:51] wasn't their fault right like it was [08:52] just like WordPress is largely um [08:56] procedural so and trying to [09:01] repackage this in a more object-oriented [09:04] way requires a lot of highle level [09:06] architectural thinking uh that is hard [09:10] like it's like when you use a framework [09:12] like Symfony or Laravel a lot of that [09:14] thinking is done for you you have like [09:16] all these primitives that you can use [09:19] >> and you don't have that with WordPress [09:21] so I was teaching you how to build these [09:22] primitives [09:24] >> that I still use today like uh like Emir [09:26] my serverless platform like has a plugin [09:28] and it's all object-oriented programming [09:30] but it's using all stuff that's like [09:33] from years ago like uh WP Rocket uses [09:36] like I have code attributed to me in WP [09:38] Rocket because it's just like it's a [09:40] primitive like that is good and doesn't [09:43] really need anything else. Like it's [09:45] just it's been good for like almost a [09:47] decade and it's still good because it [09:49] solves the problem in a in an elegant [09:51] and clean way and you just keep using [09:54] it. [09:54] >> So that that was a lot of Sorry, I like [09:57] I'm like the master of going on [09:59] tangents. [10:00] >> I This is This is great. This is what [10:02] we're about. I'm I'm happy to go on [10:04] tangents. I will circle back. Uh [10:06] >> okay. [laughter] [10:07] >> I wanted to uh ask about um you said you [10:10] were you when you went to to do computer [10:13] engineering, you were thinking more [10:15] hardware and not software. What was the [10:17] where where did you see that going? Like [10:19] did you or did you see that going? Is [10:20] that just an interesting thing at the [10:22] time or did you actually like have like [10:24] when I graduate maybe I'll do this [10:25] thing? I mean there was so I mean nobody [10:28] ever it was such a different time like [10:31] so for context I graduated computer [10:33] engineering in 20 2006 so 20 years ago [10:37] actually I'm going it's going to be my [10:39] 20 year reunion this year um and back in [10:43] 2006 [10:45] you know like so much of what you can do [10:47] today wasn't possible right like um [10:52] if you wanted to work on computer chips [10:54] for example like your options were [10:55] largely just go work at Intel or like [10:58] couple of like AMD or like you know but [11:02] small like there's like [11:04] >> you couldn't imagine today that you [11:06] could just design a chip send it to [11:08] China and and get that done right like [11:11] it's just like same thing with the 3D [11:13] printing and all that stuff like 3D [11:15] printers were an entire department [11:16] budget in 2006 um so I loved it but it [11:22] was just like there's no you know I only [11:25] know I'm sure there's more than one, but [11:27] like out of like the circle of people I [11:29] know. First of all, I I'm from Montreal. [11:33] Uh I didn't study Montreal, which is [11:35] very unusual, but uh but all my friends [11:37] in Montreal basically that did [11:38] engineering, they all work in the gaming [11:40] industry because that's basically where [11:42] you went because Montreal is kind of [11:44] like the gaming industry mecca. Like [11:46] almost every large studio has uh studios [11:48] here. [11:49] >> Um so you basically just everybody went [11:53] into that. But where I went in Kingston, [11:56] uh most people also ended up as software [11:58] developers basically um because there [12:01] was just not a lot of jobs for for [12:04] people that knew how to make computer [12:05] chips or all that low-level stuff. Like [12:09] I love compiler class, but it's there's [12:11] no point in building a compiler, you [12:13] know, uh except for fun, which you can [12:15] do, but it was just that was like where [12:17] the careers were. And for me, it was [12:20] even because of the catch 22. I'd [12:23] already been doing summer jobs for this [12:25] law firm, [12:26] >> right? [12:27] >> And the director already knew me and [12:28] he's like I was like backpacking and he [12:31] was in Europe and I was he was just [12:33] like, "Well, do you want to come work [12:35] for us?" And I was like, "Sure." Like I [12:38] I don't really know what else I'm going [12:39] to do. [12:40] >> Um so that seemed fine. like I you know [12:44] I wasn't going to do tech support like I [12:46] was going to be with the with the [12:47] backend server people uh so I was going [12:51] to be kind of level two support I would [12:52] do some infra and all that stuff which [12:55] was like interesting so I was like okay [12:58] uh like but it was not clear what you [13:02] could do you know like the only you know [13:06] I have one one of my housemates was in [13:08] computer science he's freaking brilliant [13:09] he he basically started at Google that [13:11] year he's still at like you know uh but [13:14] outside of that like most people didn't [13:16] really know where to go like computer [13:19] you know software wasn't that big yet uh [13:21] even on its own but it was just like [13:23] okay well Montreal had a lot of video [13:25] game studios so like the computer [13:27] engineers went to the video game studios [13:28] and I wasn't that interested in video [13:32] games I did my computer [13:34] >> I did computer graphics thinking I would [13:36] like computer graphics and uh as as [13:41] gifted and brilliant as I am. My only [13:43] class that I almost failed was uh linear [13:45] al algebra and basically computer [13:49] graphics is all linear algebra. It's all [13:51] like matrices and matrix transforms and [13:54] all that stuff and that's the course I [13:56] almost failed. So, so I was like and and [14:00] I almost failed the computer graphics [14:01] course. So, I was like there's just no [14:02] way I'm going into video games. I mean, [14:05] I still dream of making a video game, [14:07] but you know, it was just not realistic [14:09] at the time. So, [14:10] >> there's enough things now. There's [14:11] enough tools that you don't have to [14:12] worry about the graphics part anymore. [14:14] >> No, exactly. And I was just not involved [14:16] in web like like I just didn't do any [14:20] web. You didn't do web at school, [14:22] >> right? [14:23] >> Yeah. [14:24] >> Like my exposure was Java and I did some [14:27] C basically like some.net through like [14:30] going to like clubs and stuff like that. [14:32] But it was it was just very little. Like [14:34] my summer job was like I did a summer [14:37] job for the Canadian government and that [14:40] was still Java like Tomcat servers with [14:43] like it was didn't make web look fun at [14:47] all right like no [14:49] >> like so Mike so I really missed the boat [14:51] on that uh looking back at everybody's [14:54] like retrospect if you like read about [14:56] like DHH and a lot of these people like [14:59] they just got into the web really early [15:01] and I just didn't get the right exposure [15:03] for that uh so it just never kind of [15:06] appealed to me till actually I got to [15:07] WordPress. WordPress is how I got into [15:09] web development. [15:11] >> That's pretty a pretty fascinating [15:13] >> introduction. [15:15] Um yeah, no I I uh I rode the Geio [15:18] Cities wave. Uh I was big on Geio [15:20] Cities. I had a handful of of dumb [15:23] little sites and then I started uh [15:26] because I was uh involved in the San [15:28] Francisco sort of goth community and [15:30] that was all sort of like BBS's and uh [15:33] IRC actually it's preIRC uh like message [15:37] boards and and uh there was um there was [15:42] a sfggoth.net net was sort of like the [15:44] hub and I knew the the guy that ran it [15:46] and I got a I was able to get a page on [15:49] that and that was sort of like my first [15:51] real non Geio Cities site. Um, [15:54] >> yeah. [15:55] >> And, uh, and back then it was like like [15:58] if you wanted to do something, uh, [16:00] functional, um, it was like, well, [16:04] here's here's a Pearl script or here's [16:07] like like a CGI bin or something that [16:10] you can drop into your, uh, that you can [16:12] drop into your site and and it will [16:13] maybe do something uh, useful, which was [16:16] not not very fun um, at all. And I also [16:20] uh and I never yeah that was not a thing [16:22] that I uh could see myself writing even [16:25] though I I did take like a couple [16:28] programming classes in college but like [16:29] yeah I was mostly mostly self-taught and [16:32] that actually segus into uh you've [16:35] taught and you've wrote a book. Um tell [16:37] me about how that sort of started and [16:39] came come came to be. [16:41] >> Oh my goodness. Uh okay well we'll have [16:44] to drill a bit back. So, so I started [16:47] doing web development. I got hired as [16:50] the first basically like this agency was [16:54] like being hired to like make a website [16:56] for I was trying to hire I was trying to [16:58] apply for a net position and then uh [17:01] funny enough like everybody thinks I'm [17:03] like great at programming but I could [17:05] not pass a a programming interview to [17:07] save my life basically. Like I was just [17:09] like you know like I would kill the soft [17:12] skill stuff. We talk everything's great. [17:13] They're just like I even applied to [17:15] Ubisoft that way. It was like they're [17:17] like, "Cool. We just need to make you [17:19] pass like a quick exam and then you [17:22] we'll probably be good to go." And I was [17:23] like, "Oh no, I'll never hear from you [17:25] again." Basically. Uh and [17:27] [clears throat] [17:28] um so I applied for this net position [17:31] and they were like, "Uh, you're kind of [17:33] weak, but you know, we have do you know [17:36] [clears throat] anything about WordPress [17:37] or something like that?" I was like, [17:38] "No, but I'll learn anything." Like [17:40] that's what I was telling. And so so [17:43] that got me involved in in WordPress and [17:46] then I did my first work camp. Uh and [17:49] then I started organizing them and doing [17:51] meetups. So that's like kind of how I [17:53] got into it. But I was really already [17:55] really into Symphony um at the time. You [17:58] know, it was still Symphony 1, but [18:00] Symphony 2 was coming out, which is [18:02] wild. Like Symphony 2 must be 15 years [18:03] old, actually. Like something crazy. Um [18:07] and uh but it it came out. They had all [18:11] this component system. I loved it. And I [18:13] could just see architecturally like how [18:15] this could fit. So I was just like, and [18:18] then I would talk to people and they're [18:19] like, "Oh, you can't do object you you [18:22] like." You probably remember those like, [18:24] you know, an advanced word advanced [18:26] WordPress group. Ah, you can't do [18:27] object-oriented programming with [18:29] WordPress. Ah, you can't do this. And I [18:30] was just like, nah, you can. It's just [18:32] it's hard. Like it's just it's it's [18:34] legitimately hard because you don't have [18:36] the primitives. You don't have the [18:37] components like Symphfony built and [18:39] stuff like that. So you have to think [18:42] really harder about how to do stuff. Um [18:46] and so I just started doing that like I [18:48] just started teaching that and then at [18:51] the same time I quit my my my [18:54] job uh after two years uh and not [18:58] getting the MBA and I just realized I [19:00] wanted to be on my own and start my own [19:01] business. This is going to tie to the [19:03] serverless stuff because I'm still on [19:04] that journey. But basically, I started [19:05] the journey to just start my own [19:07] business. And I was like, okay, how am I [19:09] going to do this? And then I was just [19:11] like, I guess I wanted to do So, my [19:13] first thing was to do uh I I really like [19:17] another special interest of mine is like [19:19] um fitness science and stuff. So, I [19:22] wanted to do like a a health app. I [19:24] actually had health. It was called [19:26] health, but the old English way of [19:27] spelling it. It's like H L H E L T H E I [19:31] think. Um and then that kind of bombed [19:35] like I couldn't get any traction on that [19:36] because I'm a noob basically and I suck [19:38] at marketing but but I was just like [19:40] then I was like I wanted to build Sentry [19:43] was new then like everybody knows Sentry [19:45] then but I wanted to build Sentry for [19:47] WordPress. Uh so I I rebranded it to [19:50] health and then I was like okay I'm [19:52] going to there's still blogs on that in [19:54] my on my on my blog. So, I was like, I'm [19:57] gonna start blogging about WordPress [19:59] tech stuff and hopefully that'll take [20:01] off, but it it never really did for for [20:04] very obvious reasons. Even Century in [20:06] and the WordPress space is now even [20:08] after all this time, it's not that big. [20:10] Um, but because every back then people [20:13] were like, is that like new relic for [20:15] I'm like it's not quite, you know, like [20:18] it's hard to explain to people like [20:20] error reporting and all that stuff like [20:23] >> um but that was like the catalyst. Like [20:26] the catalyst was like always like I want [20:27] to be self-sufficient on my own because [20:30] all I want to do is write code and feel [20:33] financially safe writing code. that's [20:35] like that's like my northstar basically [20:38] like right for my entire career is like [20:41] I just want to write code and feel safe [20:44] uh doing it and so I started writing all [20:47] that and then I just decided why not [20:49] write a book you know I had this book [20:51] and signup sheet because I was trying [20:53] all the hacks like the the the growth [20:55] hacks and I was just I had the and then [20:57] at some point if I got enough people [20:59] signed up for the book I'd start writing [21:01] it and I I did and I published it and it [21:06] shockingly well. Like I think the [21:07] lifetime sales of it is like $32,000 [21:10] like [21:11] >> for a yeah [21:13] >> for a niche [21:15] >> right [21:15] >> book on how to do object it's not even [21:18] how to do object-oriented programming in [21:21] WordPress. like it's just [21:23] object-oriented programming like the [21:24] concept taught with like WordPress as [21:27] examples like as opposed to the like you [21:30] know class vehicle car extends vehicle [21:32] and all this stuff that's like really [21:34] kind of like not useful like I would use [21:36] a lot of like WordPress stuff to do to [21:40] to do the examples. Uh [21:42] >> but it's to me it's still wild to this [21:44] day that it like did that well. [21:49] >> Yeah. No, for context, like I I did um [21:52] uh for a number of years I was uh making [21:54] online tutorials for Pluralsight. Uh [21:57] Pluralsight does has a library of of [21:59] video courses that you can take. And a [22:02] lot of the people they refer to their uh [22:04] the people that do their uh courses as [22:06] authors and a lot of them actually are [22:08] also like written authors. And so I've [22:10] had conversations with uh some of the [22:12] other Pluralsight authors about who have [22:14] written books and they're like, "Yeah, [22:16] the money like it's really just [22:18] marketing. Like I don't make anything [22:19] off of this book. Even though my name is [22:21] on a book and it's like maybe the Amazon [22:24] bestseller in its category of like some [22:26] niche like uh specific computer [22:29] technical thing, but they're not making [22:31] a ton of money on it. And especially [22:33] because it goes through like O'Reilly or [22:34] something. So like they're taking their [22:36] cut, but like they what it's basically [22:39] just name recognition. Like they can say [22:41] I have a book and then also you can take [22:43] this class with me here. And they were [22:44] actually they were saying that they were [22:46] making a lot more in royalties from [22:47] Pearlite stuff uh than they were from [22:50] their book and that's why they kept [22:51] doing it is because they because that's [22:53] that's where more money was coming in [22:55] and they had a really good sort of [22:56] revenue sharing model. [snorts] [22:58] >> Yeah, I self-published because there was [23:00] all this self-publishing at the time [23:02] like Nathan Barry I was using kit uh [23:04] Nathan Barry Adam had like refactoring [23:07] to collections that was like an awesome [23:09] book. Um, like I just went to [23:13] self-publishing or I've made more money [23:15] than a lot of people I know that have [23:17] published on Amazon and stuff like like [23:19] not like a bit like you know three four [23:23] times more you know. [23:25] >> Um, [23:27] >> and yeah, it's I mean it was all [23:29] marketing for it like it was just like [23:32] content marketing all this stuff that [23:34] doesn't work as well anymore. Uh, but it [23:36] was just like it was just, you know, [23:40] marketing works when you have a place. [23:43] And this I owe to like Matt Cromwell [23:47] basically like like Matt Cromwell was [23:51] like uh the admin of like advanced [23:54] WordPress group in and [23:57] >> he found my stuff and he started sharing [23:58] it and then he was like, "No, you can p [24:01] you can you can promote yourself here. [24:03] you can he used to have a wizard for [24:06] like whether you should post or not and [24:07] there was an actual answer that was like [24:09] if you're Carl Alexander it's okay [24:10] basically like there was like that's how [24:13] like he was a real ally uh at that time [24:17] and I think that's one of my struggles [24:19] now around marketing um is those spaces [24:22] don't really exist [24:24] >> like I mean but you know people say X [24:28] you know is is good for for that stuff [24:31] but like I've been going back a bit and [24:33] I just there's so much noise. Um it it [24:37] it's it doesn't feel very good uh to me. [24:42] Uh I know some people have a lot of [24:44] success on it, but it's just like it [24:45] doesn't feel like like I really liked [24:49] like feeling like I was part of like [24:50] that's why I try to do a Discord. I've [24:52] been talking to a lot of other companies [24:54] like try to do a Discord like build your [24:55] community on Discord. [24:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. [24:59] so that you have a place, you know, that [25:01] people can come chat. Like that's always [25:02] been my hope for like Emir is to just [25:05] have an active discord where people can [25:07] come chat and talk not just about [25:09] serverless stuff. They can talk about [25:11] programming stuff for like anything they [25:13] find cool um and just build that out [25:16] somehow. But but that's missing [25:19] nowadays. Like I [25:21] >> because to me there was like um Amy Hoy [25:25] is her name. She she used to have like I [25:28] forget what the course was, but [25:29] basically like she would talk about like [25:32] sales safari. You have to find where [25:33] your people hang out. [25:35] >> And I just don't know where my people [25:36] hang out anymore. like because because [25:38] most of us don't really want to hang out [25:40] on the social networks anymore. Kind of [25:42] like post status Slack and a couple of [25:45] >> things, but it's just like it doesn't [25:47] have like the same stuff that back in [25:49] the day, [25:50] >> you know, I could go on Reddit or I mean [25:53] Reddit's still goodish, but I just don't [25:55] go on the WordPress. I I don't I'll be [25:58] honest. I don't go on the on much on the [26:00] on Reddits, but I think they're still [26:02] good, but it's just there's no more [26:04] advanced WordPress group. I don't want [26:06] to be on Facebook anyways. So it's just [26:09] >> so it's difficult you know but at the [26:12] time it was great like I you know it it [26:14] allowed me to achieve something [26:17] significant but it was like what to [26:19] transition once that ended that's kind [26:21] of like the year the book came out is [26:23] kind of like when I transitioned to the [26:25] serverless stuff it the timing was just [26:28] coincidental but it was just like I was [26:30] ready for the next thing. Um and that [26:34] ended up being the next thing you know [26:37] >> and then COVID happened which also like [26:38] threw a lot of wrenches and everything. [26:40] So it was just [26:42] >> might have been a different trajectory [26:43] if it was not for co but you know that's [26:46] also a part of the issue too is hard to [26:48] do marketing when a lot of it was me [26:51] going to conferences talking to people [26:53] and [26:54] >> that's still a lot of like my best [26:56] networking my best growth comes from [26:58] that like and sharing like I still [27:01] publish a lot um [27:04] >> I mean for the readers like for the [27:06] listeners like emir my business like [27:09] I've been writing a report every two [27:11] weeks to four between two and four weeks [27:14] for five years. Like I've I've written [27:16] 94 or 95 of them basically like it's [27:20] going to be the fivey year anniversary [27:21] in February basically. So, I've been [27:22] sharing in public my struggles, my this, [27:25] my that, like very honestly, like I had [27:28] an interview, it's not out yet, with [27:30] Niden from like WP Build. [27:32] >> And he's like, you know, like you and [27:35] and Katie Key are like very down to [27:38] earth, but you're like so much rougher. [27:40] Like I was just like like cuz it's hard. [27:42] People shouldn't know it's it's hard. [27:44] Like I I don't want people to be like, [27:46] "Oh, like you were kind of a overnight [27:49] success or stuff." I'm like, there's no [27:51] overnight. Like, I've been working on [27:53] this since 2019 and I, you know, and [27:55] it's still not, you know, it's still [27:57] >> it's still hard, you know, and I think [27:59] people should should know that and [28:01] >> and be cleareyed about it. I think [28:03] that's always been really important to [28:05] me like like same thing when I I did a [28:08] pressomics conference too on on stuff [28:12] that was like that and it was just like [28:14] talking about success and what success [28:16] means to people and I think you have to [28:19] be like honest you know and [28:22] >> because otherwise like people just see [28:23] what you decide to show them and I can't [28:27] show 100% and that's not the point but [28:29] the point is like if you don't show the [28:32] real difficult stuff, you know, people [28:36] just think it's easy, you know, and it's [28:39] it's really not, you know, like [28:42] >> it's really not easy to [28:44] >> Yeah. [28:45] >> Yeah. [28:45] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's so much [28:46] there's so much surface the social media [28:49] tends to highlight the the good stuff [28:52] and creates this sort of like almost [28:55] fake version of of everyone which is I [28:57] think it's it's a reason why I don't uh [29:00] spend as much time as I used to on on [29:03] social media. [29:03] >> Yeah. I mean it's been good. Like [29:05] there's a there's a you know it's hard [29:09] like I've talked about it like not like [29:12] written or anything but I've talked a [29:13] bit about it like informally. It's just [29:16] like [29:18] it sucks that like the right thing to do [29:20] for marketing [29:22] hurts you so much. [29:24] >> Yeah. [29:26] >> And I don't know how to deal with that [29:29] basically. I kind of I'm still avoiding [29:31] it. But it's it's one of the challenges [29:33] that I find with the whole thing is that [29:36] I know like you don't need to convince [29:39] me that if I was really active on [29:40] LinkedIn or [29:42] >> on on X or Blue Sky or choose your you [29:46] know [29:47] >> that it would probably be good for the [29:50] business, but what is the cost that I'm [29:53] willing to bear on this? And it's it's [29:57] hard, you know, like it's, you know, I' [29:59] I've I talk a lot about [30:03] what are you willing like, you know, I [30:07] really want like if if it's not clear, [30:09] I've been doing this for 15 years on my [30:12] own trying to build a business that is [30:14] for me and I still haven't quite s I [30:17] feel like I'm the closest I've I've ever [30:19] been, but I still have not succeeded. [30:21] But, you know, I'm willing to take the [30:24] loss, you know, like what is the cost [30:27] that you're willing to bear to get that [30:29] success? And that was kind of like the [30:30] procomics thing was just like what is [30:33] what is the cost you're willing to bear? [30:35] >> Are you willing to take all this, [30:39] you know, [30:41] crap that you have to see and deal with [30:44] on social media to be successful? [30:46] Obviously, you know, some people manage [30:48] better than others, but I just find that [30:50] it triggers my ADHD. Uh like I scroll. I [30:54] just it's distracting, you know. Um it [31:00] you just see a lot of stuff you'd rather [31:01] not see. It's [31:03] >> it's very hard, right? Like it's, [31:05] >> you know, and it's not because I don't [31:06] like the people there or there's not [31:08] good people that I would love to [31:10] interact with, but it it the the blast [31:12] radius of the whole thing is huge. [31:14] >> Yeah. Um, so it it's it's difficult for [31:18] me. Um, so I write a lot and I publish a [31:22] lot. That's why I like newsletters and [31:24] stuff because it's you get to choose you [31:26] get to opt in [31:28] >> to to seeing it. [31:30] >> And you know like the reports aren't [31:32] that popular. Like I started with 250 [31:34] people. I think I'm run around 200. [31:35] People are falling off. But again, part [31:37] of it is just I'm running it for me. [31:39] >> Yeah. And part of the reason too like [31:41] you should do a lot if you do a lot of [31:43] stuff for you maybe you'll be successful [31:45] maybe you won't but at least you know I [31:48] think [31:49] you'll never look at yourself in the [31:51] mirror and be like oh like I didn't I [31:54] wasn't true to myself which is like [31:56] really critical for me. So it's just [31:58] like but that's that's a very hard [32:01] tension right now is how to do that. Um [32:05] >> because I find the cost is high. [32:07] >> Yeah for sure. Let's let's talk about [32:09] let's talk about air. Uh it's we've been [32:12] dancing around it long enough. Um for [32:14] anyone for anyone who doesn't know and [32:17] hasn't gone to one of your talks, [32:19] >> like explain what serverless is for [32:22] somebody who doesn't know anything about [32:24] serverless. [32:26] >> Yeah. Um [32:27] >> like what does it mean? [32:29] >> I mean what is a serverless? [32:31] >> Exactly. [laughter] I mean I I could get [32:33] into the technical weeds. I think I [32:35] don't think what's I don't think this is [32:38] like what's changed a lot this year is [32:40] I've just kind of refined a lot. I'm [32:42] thinking a lot. I'm branching out into [32:44] all of PHP. [32:46] That's my plan and I've just been trying [32:48] to get to the root. I used to be again [32:51] autistic super technical you love the [32:54] technical aspect like but really what [32:56] are you what is the point of serverless? [32:58] Like first yes there are servers with [33:00] serverless. That is not the point. The [33:02] point of server I'll just tackle this [33:05] right away because I think it's [33:07] important. But the point with serverless [33:09] is that we all know about servers. We [33:12] know they exist and stuff like that, but [33:15] it's about your sphere of concern, [33:18] right? Like how much do you want to care [33:20] about servers, [33:22] >> right? [33:23] >> Do you want to like do you want to be [33:25] able to SSH into it and do all this [33:27] stuff? Do you want to like have to just [33:30] do all this manual work? Do you want to [33:32] know what how much RAM you need to how [33:34] many CPUs you need? Do you want to know [33:35] about all these things? Do you want to [33:37] care about all these things? And the [33:38] answer is like increasingly this is [33:40] what's changed this year is the answer [33:42] is no. [33:43] >> Basically, [33:44] >> the answer is increasingly no. And it's [33:46] increasingly no. [33:49] uh across the entire spectrum of people, [33:53] not just like uh like the non-technical [33:56] people who obviously like have no [34:00] >> wanted to care about it. [34:01] >> They never wanted to care about it. [34:03] Exactly. They never wanted to care about [34:04] it in the first place. Uh they don't [34:06] know what it means when they get to the [34:08] like, you know, pricing page and they [34:10] look, okay, I have these CPUs here and [34:13] this and worker PHP workers like what [34:15] does this all mean? or like in the case [34:17] of Pantheon like how many app servers do [34:19] I get and like all this stuff like [34:22] >> they don't want it but now like in my my [34:26] new talk that like the re reworked talk [34:29] that I do like I I talk about the versel [34:32] experience [34:33] and I gave that talk at cloudfest and [34:35] there was like these young developers in [34:37] the back and they were nodding so hard [34:38] that their their head would fall off [34:40] basically because it's the same thing [34:42] with developers like developers [34:45] nowadays don't they don't want to know [34:48] about this stuff. They just want to [34:50] deploy code like you know like what I [34:52] use in my talk is like you know deploy [34:56] scale and sleep [34:59] that's it like when you deploy in [35:00] Verscell the only time you have to worry [35:02] with the with anything is if AWS is [35:04] going down basically right and even [35:07] Versel is doing a better job at at [35:09] handling that but it's still like you [35:11] know you have your live you have your [35:13] your obviously issues but nobody's going [35:16] to be super upset at you if AWS goes [35:18] goes down and you go down at the same [35:20] time because the entire internet's on [35:21] fire anyway, [35:22] >> right? [35:22] >> Probably you might not even be able to [35:24] message in Slack like the whole thing [35:26] like it's just like so [35:28] >> if that's your only time that you might [35:30] have a downtime that is very appealing. [35:33] This is a much better appealing thing [35:35] than being like, [35:36] >> "Oh, I went I was on the front page of [35:38] Reddit and then my site blew up. I don't [35:40] know what what's happening." Like it was [35:42] my lightning in a bottle moment and the [35:45] whole thing. [35:46] >> Yeah. So, so serverless [35:50] addresses that problem basically and [35:52] that's like that's me giving you the [35:54] high level. uh if you like if you want I [35:57] could we could talk about the more [35:58] technical reasons but at the high level [36:02] that's the idea of serverless and that's [36:05] like what's changed a lot this year in [36:08] ways that I that have shocked me is just [36:10] that how fast the transitions happen but [36:13] it's just like [36:14] >> you know just people just don't want to [36:17] have to deal with that stuff anymore um [36:21] like I never like I started working on [36:24] it because I didn't want to deal with [36:25] it. And I used to joke in my my early [36:27] iterations of the talk, I should be like [36:29] the last person to promote this stuff [36:31] because I know servers. I've been [36:32] assisted men for like at the time 20 [36:34] years or something, you know, like like [36:37] I know this stuff inside out, but I I [36:40] don't want to be on pager duty, you [36:41] know, like I have coming up in Montreal [36:44] and I rebranded the title, but it's like [36:45] how to it's basically that it's like how [36:47] to not be on pager duty. Like I don't [36:49] want to be on pager duty since I've I've [36:52] switched to this stuff. like I've never [36:53] had to worry about anything, you know, [36:56] and to me that is very very very [37:01] you know it's it's priceless in a way [37:03] that you can't cost it [37:05] >> you know like it's I talk about that too [37:07] like you have to be intellectually [37:08] honest about this stuff like yes you [37:11] could go and fix the thing and if you're [37:14] comfortable with servers but even if [37:15] you're not like it's just like okay [37:16] you're paying $5 for a digital ocean [37:18] droplet but you know how much is Is it [37:23] worth it to like deal with like oh the [37:26] SSL certificate broke at some point or [37:28] like I have to migrate like you know [37:30] your Linux version's out of date or this [37:32] or that you know and [37:33] >> I had to go down a rabbit hole on my [37:35] digital ocean droplet which my site's [37:38] still on uh because I installed a plugin [37:42] that required PHP 8 something right and [37:45] my server was still on 7.4 uh because I [37:48] never touch it. Uh, and so then I had to [37:51] like do all those things. Like there's [37:53] all those things that I don't want to [37:54] think about. Like go into the server, [37:55] SSH into the server, do a do an upgrade [37:58] on the operating system. Then that broke [37:59] a whole bunch of other [ __ ] on my [38:00] website. And like there's a whole like [38:02] rabbit hole involved in things that and [38:04] at the end of it I was like, you know, [38:07] >> had I already had in like migrated this [38:10] site to Pantheon or something else, [38:13] >> I wouldn't have to worry about any of [38:14] this. I could just like click a button [38:15] and then it would have the new version [38:17] and it would be done. [38:18] >> Yeah. So hosting solves some of these [38:20] problems, but it doesn't solve the ho [38:22] the scaling one, which is like [38:24] >> the scaling one is still a very big [38:26] problem for and again I'm I I've [38:32] executives like not just developers and [38:34] stuff like that like that one is a huge [38:36] problem still you know like um you know [38:40] there was like early on with like there [38:44] was like there they don't exist anymore [38:46] but I was just like there was There was [38:48] a customer that was on on Pantheon and [38:52] Matt Cheney was like, "Get them off of [38:54] me." Like I was just like because they [38:55] were just this crazy Woo Commerce site [38:57] and it was just like they were already [38:58] on the biggest custom thing that that [39:00] you could do. And you hear these stories [39:02] all the time, right? Like my favorite [39:04] one from Word Camp Canada is like uh [39:07] this guy who sells I I [ __ ] you not [39:12] $100,000 a month of worms. [39:15] >> I think I remember the story. Yeah. And [39:18] and it's like and he's just a farmer. [39:21] Like he's just he's just like I like he [39:23] just wants to sell his work. He doesn't [39:25] understand [39:26] >> why and he shouldn't, you know. But [39:28] that's why kind of Shopify and and Wix [39:31] and Squarespace kind of win in that [39:32] respect because [39:33] >> right because they they absorb all of [39:35] that scaling issue. [39:36] >> Yeah. I mean, so when I was at Clubfest, [39:39] I talked with some some executives and [39:42] they call it like the sassification of [39:45] hosting, which is like kind of a weird [39:47] term to use because most people think of [39:49] SAS as like the pay per month thing, but [39:51] what they mean is like when you pay for [39:53] a SAS, you never worry if the SAS is [39:57] going to go down or not, right? Like you [39:59] pay and then the it just absorbs the the [40:02] traffic, right? Yeah. [40:04] >> And that's it, right? like if you go if [40:06] you make it on the front page of Reddit [40:08] like you know the platform's going to [40:09] handle it and and the whole thing right [40:12] so that they meant it more in that [40:13] scenario right uh but that's that's kind [40:16] of like where the customer expectations [40:18] are are going right like they just don't [40:21] want so that's why like the serverless [40:23] stuff is just like a technological [40:25] solution to offering [40:28] that peace of mind that people want and [40:33] you you bring up good points too which [40:35] is like one of the things that I'm [40:36] focusing on versus a lot of the like [40:38] there's breath and there's Laravel Vapor [40:40] although like that product is kind of [40:42] dying like Taylor's really focused on [40:44] Laravel cloud but I I support PHP 7.2 [40:49] to to well I'm I'm going to start [40:51] working on 8.5 right now but it's I I [40:54] don't do 8.5 yet but basically [40:57] and it's funny because I did a lunch and [40:59] learn with AWS and somebody asked me if [41:00] I could support 5.6 six, you know, like [41:03] but there's something about also having [41:04] this kind of like safe environment where [41:07] you can just run an old piece of code [41:09] indefinitely basically. [41:10] >> Um, and that's again that's the kind of [41:12] promise for like the the techie people [41:15] is again deploy scale sleep like you [41:18] just you it's deployed if it works when [41:21] you deployed it it will keep working [41:24] indefinitely you know like that's kind [41:26] of like the promise of the the whole [41:29] technology is to do that. Obviously, [41:31] there's like challenges to to the whole [41:33] thing, but because nothing's free, like [41:36] everything has trade-offs, but it but [41:38] that's kind of like the idea. It's like, [41:39] oh, like or if you need to upgrade, [41:41] well, it's like simple like any hosting [41:43] company. Okay, I need to bump it up. But [41:45] I think what's getting more challenges [41:47] if you want to maintain an old codebase [41:49] and keep it safe, you know, there's like [41:51] the security aspect of the platform too, [41:53] which is like a lot more secure than [41:56] something you would have with like [41:58] traditional like server hosting. So if [41:59] you wanted to keep [42:01] >> a 7.2 site or a 5.6 site up like there's [42:05] a lot of security issues that you have [42:07] to mitigate this makes it a lot easier [42:09] to do to like take out a whole category [42:12] of them as well. So it's just it's just [42:15] that's the idea of serverless like at [42:16] the high level like what the product [42:19] does is just like it lets you connect [42:21] it's kind of like spin up WP you connect [42:23] your AWS account like I'll manage it you [42:26] can deploy to it now basically I have an [42:29] agreement with uh Builtfast which is [42:32] like like a partnership with them which [42:34] is like they uh they're going to build [42:38] hosting around this um so because I [42:41] never wanted to do hosting Um, so per [42:45] se. So it was just like, so it was great [42:48] that I found business partners that [42:49] wanted to bring that and like resell it [42:52] to other hosting companies. Like we have [42:54] a bunch of people that are like [42:56] companies that are waiting to to get [42:58] their hands on it. Um, and but that's [43:02] like the idea is that safety, that like [43:05] peace of mind and that scalability [43:08] because people are just not down. They [43:11] don't want to show up on a pricing page [43:13] and hear about RAM, PHP workers, CPUs, [43:16] and stuff like that. They just want to [43:17] know. And even like the WooCommerce [43:19] stuff is not even [43:22] useful. Like, sorry, I'm going a little [43:25] rant, but it's just a lot of a lot of [43:27] these pricing pages, they're like, [43:28] "Okay, we can handle like one, you know, [43:31] let's say x amount of checkouts per hour [43:33] or something like that, [43:34] >> but [43:36] >> like what if those checkouts are in the [43:37] next five minutes?" [43:39] >> Yeah. [43:39] >> Right. like you're not there's no safe [43:43] like it's just it's very opaque you know [43:45] and and people are just like not down [43:48] with that. That's why like people are [43:49] just okay well why am I dealing with [43:51] this I'll just go pay Shopify and then [43:55] I'll handle all the traffic you know [43:57] that I can you know I won't have to [43:59] worry about it. So like offer like it's [44:02] a real threat because it's you know [44:05] there's other vectors as well like um [44:07] lovable and like just being able to [44:09] build a site and deploy it and just like [44:12] cool it just stays there and it's like [44:13] it'll scale it'll handle all of that [44:15] like how to have this kind of [44:16] experience. So there's a lot of like [44:19] attacks on different vectors around it, [44:21] but like the at the end of the day, [44:23] people just don't want to. We're at a [44:25] point now, I think a critical point [44:26] where like the idea of a server is just [44:29] not something people want to read about [44:30] in a pricing page at all. [44:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like unless you're like an [44:36] enterprise client or something like [44:37] that, but like for like you know for for [44:39] most of what WordPress sells like it's [44:41] just like it's not something people [44:44] they're not the people that want to hear [44:46] about that. Like they just want to there [44:49] they want a site and they want to pay X [44:51] amount of month for their site and [44:53] understand like where the costs are [44:55] going to come from and know that it'll [44:57] stay up if something crazy happens and [44:59] they go viral or or all that stuff. [45:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. for sure. Um well, thank you [45:05] so much, uh Carl, for being on. Uh we [45:07] could talk forever, uh and we actually [45:10] have. [45:11] >> Yeah. [45:12] >> Um I was uh happy to to finally get a [45:14] chance to hang out in in Canada um this [45:17] last year. Um but for everyone else [45:19] who's who's coming across this uh either [45:21] audio or video, um where can they find [45:24] you online and where can they learn more [45:26] about Amir or or what you're doing or [45:28] where you might be speaking? Yeah, I [45:30] mean um I am mostly active on LinkedIn a [45:36] bit, but carlexander.ca [45:39] is where I write I mostly write my year [45:41] in review. My current ones in progress [45:43] right now. Um and then emirapp.com [45:48] is the website for that. And then if you [45:51] there's like slashreports uh slashpublic [45:54] like I have a public dashboard and stuff [45:57] to see where how the business is going [45:58] and all of that. [46:00] >> That's awesome. Yeah, I really love the [46:02] the transparency of that too. [46:04] >> Yeah, I try, you know. [laughter] [46:07] Well, thanks a lot for having me on, [46:08] Chris. [46:09] >> Yeah, thank you again. Uh and for [46:10] everyone uh on the internet, we'll see [46:12] you uh we'll see you next time. [46:21] >> [music]