Episode 278: Devconnect 2025 With Mário Havel  ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Protocol Support Enables Ecosystem Progress** - Protocol support coordinates diverse client teams to evolve Ethereum rather than writing every feature directly. - Mário frames his role as enabling research, testing, fellowships, and upgrades to keep the protocol moving forward. Transcript: Mário Havel Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And thank you for the lovely intro. So, yeah, I am part of the Ethereum Foundation for the past five, six years. And the last five years, I've been in this protocol support team, which when I told it to my mom, she told it I'm picking up phones when people have problems with the protocol. But what we are doing is supporting the protocol development, helping to facilitate the evolution of the protocol. So Ethereum is something very different. It was just a couple of years ago and completely different even further, right? We still do research and development to push it further. It's very decentralized in a way that there's a lot of diversity. Ethereum is implemented in like a dozen different clients together with research, maybe two dozen teams that need to coordinate, talk to each other, figure out what are the best improvements, How to make the protocol better, how to make it scalable for more people, how to make it more private, how to make it more secure. So the theory protocol is always evolving and trying to become better than it was. And I help to facilitate it. I help to support it. So I maybe don't work directly on developing some specific client or some specific feature, but I help people who do this to do their work. So I help to facilitate, for example, Ethereum protocol fellowship, which is a way to bring new core developers to the ecosystem. So this Ethereum core, the actual implementation, that's pretty complicated software. Ethereum is quite a big platform. It's pretty complex. It's pretty hard to learn all of these details that are going on there. So we are making this easier. We are helping people to come and contribute in our program, running an education and running some mentoring them directly to do this work. And then just helping with some research, with some testing for the upcoming upgrades. So right now we are shipping Fus the next big upgrade of ethereum is coming in december after that there is glamster down the current version of ethereum is actually called prague prague Elektra pektra because of the defco it's named after the defcon names and stars right it's super confusing so i'm helping the people to understand this basically because we do a lot Of important stuff a lot of cool stuff all the network runs on top of the platform the infrastructure that we built so i helped to make it happen and yeah i come from various places but prague Is one of my homes where in 2020 we started a hacker space which means like a community space of hackers makers builders who are somewhat crypto oriented but not necessarily just that It's more about creativity and embracing chaos. Specifically, Bordel means like a mess and chaos in Czech. So we invite people to just get messy and creative with us. ([Time 0:00:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a25f75ab-c67c-4ca7-b2ee-c574c6689469)) - **Bordel: A Purposefully Messy Hackerspace** - Bordel hackerspace began in Prague in 2020 as a messy creative community for makers, hackers, and artists. - The space runs workshops, shares tools like 3D printers, and insists on free/open tools for events like DJing using Mixxx. Transcript: Mário Havel Specifically, Bordel means like a mess and chaos in Czech. So we invite people to just get messy and creative with us. We have to use all kinds of tools to share tools. If somebody wants to try a 3D printer or laser cutter or just a software hacking or space for workshops, education for art electronic art and generally hacking of all kinds and we used To have this space running for maybe three three and a half years we had to move out we rented the space now we are looking for a new one so what i'm doing in the hacker space right now is just Trying to make it trying to put it together actually so it's more of a community now that's also came here to buenos aires many of us and trying to basically leverage maybe the global community To support the local efforts. Eriol Fox Like many open source people, lots of things on your plate. Mário Havel So I didn't really elaborate on that, but the hackerspace, it's meant to be a community for free and open source software people. So people who, whether they work on this or they use it, or they just embrace free and open source. So we, as I said, I mentioned a bunch of workshops, for example, how to install Linux, how to use alternative non-Google services, how to be more secure. And everything that we use internally, we built on completely free and open source tools. So whether it's hardware or software, we do it in a community way that you can learn how it works and you can always do the same. You can always repeat our steps, right? So it's all about openness and collaboration. We have DJing there, for example, right? I mean, I'm not much of a DJ. I always do it at like 3 a.m. When I want to get people out, but any guest DJ that we have needs to use a free open source MixXX software to be able to play. So we had to turn a couple of people around who wouldn't do it, right? But those who can, those who are willing to use just the free tools, they will prevail. And yeah, that's what we do, Embrace. ([Time 0:03:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ae04e2d9-adc1-4b06-b68f-c52ebab60c8f)) - **Free Means User Liberty First** - Mário emphasizes 'free' in Free and Open Source Software as user liberty and anti-surveillance, not just pragmatics. - He links the philosophical roots to the GNU movement, seeing 'open source' as the pragmatic framing many prefer. Transcript: Mário Havel Really elaborate on that, but the hackerspace, it's meant to be a community for free and open source software people. So people who, whether they work on this or they use it, or they just embrace free and open source. So we, as I said, I mentioned a bunch of workshops, for example, how to install Linux, how to use alternative non-Google services, how to be more secure. And everything that we use internally, we built on completely free and open source tools. So whether it's hardware or software, we do it in a community way that you can learn how it works and you can always do the same. You can always repeat our steps, right? So it's all about openness and collaboration. We have DJing there, for example, right? I mean, I'm not much of a DJ. I always do it at like 3 a.m. When I want to get people out, but any guest DJ that we have needs to use a free open source MixXX software to be able to play. So we had to turn a couple of people around who wouldn't do it, right? But those who can, those who are willing to use just the free tools, they will prevail. And yeah, that's what we do, Embrace. And that's also why we have to complain about the podcast, that you guys call it open source and not free and open source podcast. Because for me, the free part is much more important than the open source part the open source is sort of a pragmatic part of it we say false now but all of it is coming from the free software Foundation the gnu project right the community that created it based on values the way that i see it or the way that i talk about my community or also like the reason why do i work i do is because I care about the freedom the liberty right i understand it's confusing that's why they don't like to say something is free because it sounds like a free beer. But for me, that's the main part of it. The free part is about the actual freedoms that it gives you, the actual freedom of a user, the way that you can do with your own devices, with your own software, really what you want, because It's yours, right? But also the freedom, in a sense for me that it doesn't spy on you it's not meant to be built to track your data and sell your data but to actually provide utility this is what i see in like The philosophical movement background of it and the open source is more of a corporate term actually that talks about the pragmatic features oh but you can get free contributors and Maybe it will be more secure and auditable and so on which is true But it's more of the pragmatic part of it, which I appreciate as much. But for me, it's about spreading, teaching these values and coming from the principles that we built on. ([Time 0:04:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fb2587ec-8657-42c5-bd9a-e0e5cff89041)) - **Scale Is The Gateway To Sustainability** - Scalability for FOSS means both technical capacity and ease of adoption so projects can reach critical mass. - Mário ties scale to sustainability: once a project is essential, donations and institutional support become feasible. Transcript: Eriol Fox You said scalable, secure and new devs and fellowships. When I heard those three things when you were talking, I was like, well, those are critical aspects of making sure that open source, free and open source software is sustainable can You maybe talk a little bit more about what's scalable what security and secure open source means to you and sustainability of open source and then if you want to go into the onboarding Mário Havel New devs through the fellowships i'd love to hear more about that yeah i'm not sure if there's that much time but the scalability is important and actually we talked nearly about fos Can mean many different things right especially in ethereum it's very critical because of the way that it's just it's a blockchain which is very hard to scale and just to onboard new Users the only way to scale is just to basically invent new technology it's really cutting edge computer science work to enable more users to come to the network without overhauling The individual nodes. This is a digitalization that we cannot sacrifice in blockchain. It's really hard to scale. But generally, it's important for any FOSS project. And I believe that if it reaches some critical scale, then it becomes sustainable, right? Then it's able to bring not just the users, but also the donations from the users or maybe some payment, other sort of like sustainable income, but people depending who depend on it, Right? Or companies that use it and depend on it. So the scale is more about reaching this level where you become important enough that it's much easier to be sustainable. I think the most, the hardest part is getting there. And again, the scalability, like from technical terms, it can mean like what runs on the computer, but also like how easy it is to adopt and scale per users, right? If it's something that's hard to adopt, example would be like installing this alternative Android operating system used to be hard but now it's sort of a normy thing because anybody Can just plug it in your just plug a USB cable in the computer click on a install and it's done you don't have to use any command line and so on and it's scaled to many more users so you said You work on UX I think that's a big part of the scalability as well being able to actually onboard the users and then being sustainable thanks to that. ([Time 0:07:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d46b955a-84c4-436a-bbb9-b9e7fd726391)) - **Openness Enables Verifiable Security** - Open source increases trust and security because code can be audited, reducing the risk of backdoors and surveillance. - Mário insists on using open stacks from firmware to browser to ensure verifiable security for critical use. Transcript: Mário Havel And security is just like fundamental for me. Like everything is about security. I'm a very security conscious person. And that's why I choose open source software, because everything else is security based obscurity, basically. If I can read how it works, if somebody who is more knowledgeable than read it i have much more trust within the intelligence in the system and within the system itself if it's completely Open and i can actually verify that there is well no backdoors right like this is probably the most fundamental thing like literally every sort of proprietary app has either corporate Or a government backdoor integrated and the only way to make sure that it's not there it's to use something open and it's again the pragmatic sort of reason why to use open source but that's Why i believe many people or many critical missions right many critical usage are relying on these tools and it's the whole stack from firmware some librewood core boot in your machine All the way to the browser you're using. So all of it today can be open and therefore give you the guarantees of security than nothing really else can. ([Time 0:09:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7a0291d8-8cd0-46d8-80d5-34e8c3feaa35)) - **Prioritize Docs And Mentoring For Onboarding** - Invest in documentation and education as much as code to onboard new contributors effectively. - Use fellowships and mentoring programs to lower barriers for people becoming core developers. Transcript: Mário Havel And the fellowship, it's a different topic there, but I want to talk about the fellowship and I want to bring in new core developers. Again, that's part of the sustainability, right? And it turns out it's not easy. I mean, as much as the open software helps to make contributing easier, it also introduces different challenges. Today with AI slope being just pushed into the repos, with people just overcoming the barrier to come to some repository and being able to do something productive. Even with good documentation and so on, it's not always so easy. So the projects working on this on documentation on education and i mean in ethereum thanks thankfully we have a funding and we have sort of system for doing this where we can get people To contribute much bigger projects every long time and support them on their journey but even without this i think every project needs to have as good as the code is the documentation Needs to be good and not even that maybe i even used to say that documentation is not important if your code is good right if it's readable which is another thing being accessible to the Developers and there are many projects many small projects which just don't do this and it's because it's one person who doesn't have the bandwidth for everything and that's where The real community shines where you can see something that again you depend on something that you want to use something that you find cool and well it's missing the document some parts Of the document that you know how to run you know how to fix something so you try to do your thing you try to understand and then you document what you have actually done so i think this is The amazing part that like instead of like reverse engineering some proprietary devices and trying to document those, like this open book that you can read in and then just publish A summary. ([Time 0:11:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/588bb01d-e3b0-4149-877f-73737929c158)) - **Corporate Support Can Erode Community Control** - Corporate involvement is double-edged: companies can both contribute materially and capture projects, altering governance. - Mário recommends neutral structures so projects can accept funds without losing community independence. Transcript: Mário Havel Yeah, I mean, I believe it's a double-edged sword in the sense that like for a lot of software, it becomes so fundamental that many companies, many big companies start to rely on it. And there are three scenarios, I think. Either they don't care, they just abuse the free work by the open source developers, right? That's probably the worst case. And then they contribute. Either contribute positively or they contribute in a way that they capture the software, right? I'm not sure what is a good example. No, no, no. For example, Valve might be a good example. Now they released the hardware recently. I just saw it like last week. And I think that they contribute not just the Proton, but now also to a translation layer between Arm and x86. And they just contribute to the project. They help to grow it, to take it to the next level, right? And often what I see with this corporation is like sort of abusing their power, on the other hand. Bringing their policies, bugging their... It also depends on the license, maybe, but often bringing, like overhauling the project so much that they become the owners and not the community anymore. And as the community becomes fully dependent on the corporate funding because it's already scaled, then it's just hard to get out of that. ([Time 0:12:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd378b49-44a5-4699-8b1d-426151208b58)) - **Fund Community Spaces With Transparent Crowd Loans** - Use decentralized finance primitives to create repayment-based crowd loans instead of pure donations for community assets. - Publish transparent smart contracts with clear rewards (memberships, swag) so supporters can verify terms on-chain. Transcript: Mário Havel So another thing about me is that I really refuse to use proprietary software and things that spy on me. So I also don't use any banks. I don't have any bank app and I don't sign any KYC, any stuff like that. Because today we have free and open source implementation of the monetary system in cryptocurrencies, in Bitcoin, in Ethereum, in Monero and so on, each maybe for a bit different purpose. And on Ethereum, we have, well, DeFi or decentralized finance, which can give you some similar mechanism as banks in terms of loans, mortgages, right? But it doesn't really exist. There is not really, it exists, like you can take a loan using collateralized loan but it's not really a mortgage it's more meant for like maybe more short-term loans and more high interest Loans where you need to already have a lot of collateral so we wanted to use something similar to be able to empower our community and so what we did is we created contracts on ethereum That we call crowd loaning so we are familiar with crowdfunding, Indiegogo or whatever, where people crowd supply, by the way, great open source hardware, crowd supply and similar. You pay somebody to build the product basically, right? You just give them the money and you sort of buy the product. In the crowd loaning, the idea is that you just loan us money. If you have some free liquidity, you can just give it to us and we will partially pay it back as a mortgage. So the way it works is like maybe you are able to donate a hundred dollars but maybe you are able to lend us much more right if you don't give up the liquidity forever if you don't give up the Funds forever and you just get them back you loan us maybe a thousand dollars and in this example if you loan us a thousand dollars for a small interest rate because you're doing it out Of what's a philanthropic reason as a supporting a non-profit we give you even some interest rate but it's much smaller than uh what you get on the open market so compared to other protocols On you get maybe let's say as an example five percent less and five percent of a thousand dollars would be 50 bucks right so then you basically give us donation of 50 bucks so here's your Crowd loaning t-shirt that you got in your tier right you have these different tiers how you can support us and so the idea there is basically utilize this community from all over the World to just some lock some money on a contract which is secured by collateral and which we have to repay based on the rules of the contract in four to five years. There is a grace period, first six months, we don't need to, but after six months, every month or every few months, we need to repay some percentage, some part of the loan up until it's All repaid. We can do it faster, of course, if we suddenly stumble upon enough money to do it, but otherwise we will slowly repay it in next four or five years. So basically getting a mortgage that allows us to buy a building, buy a basement, open source. I don't like Windows. I want Linux only. There are no Windows in the basement. It's a terrible joke. So basically before we were renting and it's not easy to do this in a rented building because we are very constrained by what you can do. And it was a very small space. We want something bigger. We want something that really, we can make our own. And we are kind of people like me that don't have any credit in the traditional system. And I don't want to deal with banks and stuff. I want to do it the free and open way. So we implemented it on Ethereum where you can, because it's open, you can just read the contract. You can make sure that we don't try to pull any scam. There's no token involved. No speculation. We don't give you any tokens. We give you the reward that we say. So like if you donate, you get, or if you lend us something, you get membership in the space. So if you ever come to Prague, you are doing your digital nomading, or maybe you come for a conference. We are organizing ETH Prague, by the way. If you visit Prague for a few weeks or so, you can visit us and claim your membership and enjoy the benefits of, I don't know, you can do the 3D printing. You can attend events. You can just do the, I don't know, party with us or a workshop or something and enjoy the benefits of the space or maybe claim some badge or some t-shirt that we also offer. So yeah, that's the idea. Basically empowering this local community using all free tools on Ethereum. ([Time 0:16:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f5513362-9e96-4d4d-ae18-5c9834a3f47a)) - **Promote Secure, Privacy‑First Alternatives** - Spotlight high-quality privacy-respecting projects like GrapheneOS as practical alternatives to proprietary platforms. - Recommend donating or adopting such tools to reduce surveillance dependence and improve user security. Transcript: Mário Havel Oh yeah. Thanks so much for asking that because yes, there is many cool things that I use. And one project that I would highlight and you can donate to, you can use is GrapheneOS, an operating system for your phone, which is probably the most secure and open and like very well Thought out and also easy to run alternative to all the Google stuff, all the spying thing. So yeah, like to spotlight as we close out? Something that i very much appreciate and really depend on these days it works too well i'm this kind of person when i saw this new linux phone and my friends were making fun of me like oh Your phone works on 99 so you need to get something which does have half the features right to heck on but i still use it and i love it i need to maybe find something more janky. But yeah, Graphene is great. ([Time 0:22:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/960a8c56-6925-4b85-b5a8-982c3c13f31e))