Episode 349: WPCS.IO With Roger Rosweide  ## Metadata - Author: [[The SDM Show]] - Full Title: Episode 349: WPCS.IO With Roger Rosweide - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/8ca9304d-a1d3-4dd9-af7b-6bbe378999d9 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Pivot from Hotel App to SaaS** - WPCS.IO started from building an app for hotels to auction off empty rooms late at night. - The pandemic shifted their focus from hospitality to scalable website services for agencies. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah, we all get we all get it um Thank you for joining me this morning and today I thought we'd talk about why did you go and create a sass product and Tell us about that journey a little bit It's a very good question. Uh, why would anyone anyone really want to you know start a sass? Um So I think the I think we started at a position where many people in the WordPress scene find themselves initially uh, we were an agency and so um most of the product company owners or Even hosting company owners I speak to At some point started as an agency. They started building websites After you start with one for yourself obviously and so it's the same thing for us Uh, we weren't actually a web agency initially. We were an agency specializing in advertisements and content I myself am a content maker by trade Uh, but we noticed at some point that websites were just an easy foot in the door Right, You sell someone on website and then you have a lot of upsells on the back of that and also additionally Um, because I just mentioned I I did my masters in um in in Italy and my other co-founder He's traveled extensively in vietnam and and south america as well And we had a lot of friends always wanted to stay over in uh with us in amsterdam and I I don't know if you've ever been In an amsterdam house But it's it's very very small. It's a very old city And so all the houses that were made at the time are just very small So obviously you want to be hospitable and invite people to your home But it gets crowded real fast So we started developing this App for hotels We had a lot of friends who owned hotels and we knew that at some point after eight usually The reception goes home and you have a night manager And they don't really take new reservations So we started making an app that would auction off empty rooms late at night And so I got one of my best friends attached to the project and uh, He's a cloud engineer and a full-stack developer And uh, and then we started making more websites simply because that was one of the things that would tie us together So now we we were Building a sass and at the same time developed transitioning our agency from content and marketing to web or to to websites And then and then the pandemic happened. Uh, we were but we were supposed to launch the the app on 23rd of march 2020, which is my birthday And on march 17 the entire world or at least in the netherlands went into lockdown Um, so We were in lockdown at that point too. ([Time 0:03:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ac7003cc-7699-4a71-97e8-d7dff557fd4e)) - **Innovative Multi-Tenant Architecture** - WPCS.IO uses Kubernetes and multi-tenancy to enable scalable, centrally managed WordPress sites. - They created a versioning and templating system for easy updates and upgrades across many sites. Transcript: Speaker 1 Where did you go from there? Um, so and so again initially we thought we were building a tool for ourselves But that didn't last long very soon we found out that it was something that mostly but a lot of people were Looking for And uh, we didn't really do much research Because again, we wanted to build something for ourselves. So the research that we did was geared towards how can we build the coolest solution that we can think of Um, so very quickly we decided we were going to use Kubernetes as as the way to orchestrate The containers Used to uh to spin up sites or to scale sites rather um and then very quickly we We had research multi site in the past and and don't get me wrong because it sometimes comes Off as if I go on some some sort of Multi site brand. I'm I'm fond of multi site. I think it's great But for the proper use case and the use case that we were after at the moment Uh, because now it's it has expanded significantly But at the moment we were looking for a Website as a service, right? We were we were interested in selling people on individualized websites Um, that is a total solution Uh, but i've actually recently only learned a new term um credits to marika Fundaracht The the wife of yostafog from yost And um, she she dubbed it the digital experience platform Uh, I I had never heard of that No, right Yeah, it just goes to show how how how little research We really did in terms of competition or whether or not this solution already existed We just wanted to build something that would suit our needs So again, it would be you spin up a site That is virtually completely done um the the the customer can Stat can can customize based on the template that you provide and Every time you want to update or maintain or upgrade the Sites Plural you obviously don't want to go into them individually you want to centralize so really in a get like fashion So that's what we wanted to do and then we we started looking at Sass companies So how do they how do they scale how does airbnb or how does uber really get as big? Um Technically and so very very quickly we and we learned that we had to introduce multi-tenancy to WordPress Uh, and and I used the the verb Introduce but at the time we had no idea that It wasn't introduced yet So we build a cloud platform that spins up multi-tenant websites So basically you have a version that you develop And the version becomes the template that You use or rather you create a version and then you create a template based on that version And the template you use to spin up new sites And then every time you want to improve on your product You create a new version So that new version then becomes the version two as it were so you have your version management system From that new version you create a new template and then You can spin up new sites, but If you transfer the old Tenants sorry websites we call them tenants from the older version to the new version then you automatically upgrade your existing Sites because they receive all the new Code changes that you've done it. So that's what we build for ourselves and so We we knew we didn't want to do something with multi-side because you you were unable to do any of that Because what i've just explained really Is is devops, which is also another thing that's virtually not existent in WordPress like only if you use something with git Then you know devops, but most agencies don't And we wanted To do something that is completely scalable completely safe. You can continuously update your sites without Breaking them or if you do break them, you know being able to restore them quickly and safely um So, you know just thinking out all those Features really quickly Let us into conversations with others agency owners that we knew just to get feedback and that's when we realized hey This is much bigger than what than us you Know, I agree And so yeah, so at some point we realized also that um, we were too small to build the entire platform which is when we Uh approached one of our best friends Dexter I've known Him since kindergarten and he had been a cloud engineer at a company for the past 12 years Which you know is very much a very long time these days. ([Time 0:12:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/47b830dc-2390-4daa-872c-655e5e863603)) - **Pick Agnostic, Supportive Investors** - Choose investors that align with your broad ecosystem goals without alienating future partners. - Select VCs who support your strategy and allow for open collaboration with industry players. Transcript: Speaker 1 So that being said Um, we we chose to go for the most agnostic Uh vc that we could find Um, and then be sure that they would interfere with our strategy at the time But also not alienate any Other company that would wouldn't want to work with us in the future It's that juggling act isn't it sometimes and we were talking before we went to record You just took on some investment. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, of course So, um, I I mean actually I think the the segue is is a perfect Uh a perfect moment in in in the story Because like I said, we uh, we raised our first round about two years ago Um, which was first with a german vc funded by portia the car and oxal spinger, which is the largest media firm in You could say europe even by the day of my favorite car for the record Mine Too everybody everybody. Yeah And we have the port and i'm like no Um Not yet at least but um for sure um So and and the reason we chose them is um because they have what they call a venture building program So most vc's They try to help you build You know revenue builds your business, but what they focused on mostly they they called themselves a very early vc And instead of focusing on the business itself They help you Find your feet in the in the startup space. They help you connect to investors. They help you understand the terms of contracts They help you, you know understand how to raise capital for what valuation and and you know reserve Um stocks for your employees and whatnot They really help you professionalize as a company as you prepare for You know becoming a unicorn or whatever Um, and so after we did that venture building program We were much more equipped To actually start approaching other investors, which is when we uh reengaged a Dutch fund that we have been talking to for a bit and um and they were actually the best partner in terms Of how to Launch the business at you know after you know understanding how it actually all works And because they both were very agnostic We could easily Get in touch with all workers Companies that we wanted to speak with in it possibly partner up with Um, and that's what we have been doing for the past few years until the moment when we realized Who are the players In the worker space who are loved? ([Time 0:22:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3a76ae9b-adae-44b2-8695-74aabc8ce85e)) - **Handling Early Security Challenges** - Early DDoS attacks targeted WPCS.IO customers, highlighting real-world security challenges. - Co-founder Dexter's cloud experience ensures implementation of best security practices from the start. Transcript: Speaker 1 So how did your products sit with security, roger? Um, well, fortunately, I'm not the one to ask Uh, well at least I'm not the one to answer that in detail Um, but I have to admit it is uh, it is for sure something that every SaaS is often Worried About um I can I can remember At time when we were being bombarded with um, d-dee-dah's attacks and that was way in the beginning before we even launched the beta And we just had our first Couple hundred sites on the platform and um That was You know because you're you're trying to defend to something that you've never really had before Obviously, you know about it, but It's not something that you've you've experienced Uh previously and as it happens it was a customer that Um had their name and logo under every website that they produced Uh, so really All you have to do is just google the the company and find out that they have a couple hundred sites And that they also do book armor spins action. So then you start They didn't have it to be on our service. So yeah That was uh, you know I think I you but I'm I'm not laughing with you I'll share with you one that you might want to hear is One of the major domain registers in north america the canadian Is the company called hovered you've probably heard of hovered there There being Well, my mom For business hosts her email on hovering uses amstrichte as a mail server Two months ago Hovered took such a bad d-doss attack their primary mail server was offline for 48 hours If you can believe that Due to a d-woss attack it was that bad. So I mean, it's just I hate to tell people it's the state of the world we live in and it's no longer We take those attacks is how do you deal with them and how do you recover a kind of thing? Right? Yeah, I agree fortunately, um So we are forefounders two of them commercial me being one of them and two being technical And so you've got vinond who is I always call him the dreamer He's The guy who drent up the idea of multi-tenant wordpress and exposing that to the ecosystem as a whole for to leverage but Dexter and Dexter vinond and I have been friends since kindergarten Three of us and Dexter is almost uh the the the perfectionist who makes sure that whatever being drent up is actually sustainable and robust and he does not take any risk whatsoever and Having worked at a large cloud company for 12 years As a as a lead developer will will teach you how to implement the best practices and prepare for ESO certification straight from the Beginning so if if if we're currently secure which we are then um the the two of them together You know being able to take risks and at the same time cover your your basics is uh, I think due To the fact that they're together in this By the way, you can use those words on this podcast If you want All right, cool. ([Time 0:29:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fbdc3a06-a5a5-4fde-8ba6-9b7a262c2d23)) - **Agencies Embrace Product-Led Growth** - Most agencies start with one site then scale to dozens as they adopt product-led growth. - Agencies use WPCS.IO to offer standardized, automated sites and upsell bespoke customizations later. Transcript: Speaker 1 Like do you have any sense of what those numbers are or can you share for sure? So on average, I believe So we have a metric we call average tenant pair customer So tenant being website, uh, but because you can do much more With a WordPress instance on our platform Then build a website because you can build a sass Um, we call them tenants Um, and I think it's the number is Four or 16 or 17 because it recently increased from 14 to 16 or seven That's a big Number when you think of it your average customer is spending up 17 instances. That's quite a bit Yeah, but I mean obviously, um, I would say 80 of our customers Start with one So you've got customers that you know launch hundreds of sites And most of them Most of those Customers have already adopted a product led mindset They do they already sell products and not projects Um, and so they just you know start adopting the platform and then they go about The business as they've had it before just in a more scalable and robust way Uh, but most so so I would say so if you ask me the question like what typical agency approaches us then 80 percent Eight out of eight out of ten times It is an actual traditional agency and I don't mean that in a directive way that were traditional I mean they make websites and they organize themselves In projects and uh and and that was me For the longest time and um, it is it is the most fun Uh, I think because every project is its own unique um, uh, you know Almost piece of art. You know, you get to look at it from a whole and through the eyes of the customer and that's a lot of fun But it's also very unscalable and I often say Uh an agency either has too much work or Too many employees Um, and it's it's it's it truly felt that way, right? It's very hard to prepare for steel No question in my case is probably number one. So Yeah, right. So so so if you like if you if you want to talk about product then I think You have to talk about scale and scaling a business and so um, the agencies that we have signing on A lot of them are Trying to adopt a website as a service But they don't intend to shift entirely to a website as a service. So what they do Is they adopt, uh, a method of selling sites automatically that are standardized And that sometimes the customer can start start customizing themselves Or they still Have this sort of onboarding experience where they help you customize the site for the for the customer And then at some point Some customers they they they you know have enough they They Want a standardized site because it's optimized for a certain niche or it's optimized for a certain functionality Say a a web shop or an lms But sometimes the customer becomes very Successful in the business and the site grows and the and the demand grows And so they need something more bespoke So they migrate this site off our platform to another hosting company Where they have an individual instance Um, and they can dedicate a team to it So it's so it's often a way of attracting more customers in a predictable way Uh gaining additional recurring Revenue Uh on the front end and then upselling projects on the backhand and I think that's the The I think that's the coolest use case that I see on the platform and and fortunately, that's Like I said 80 percent of the time Um, but again, we have those large Uh, uh, companies that come in and just you know already have this complete product led mindset adopted and they just They go they launch and they skill I get that. ([Time 0:33:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cf7b313c-bd03-4ddd-b0ab-f4134c4b5413)) - **Adopt Flexible SaaS Pricing** - Use flexible pricing models based on containers and scalable plans to fit diverse customer needs. - Metered pricing allows scaling costs with traffic, making plans accessible and efficient. Transcript: Speaker 1 Like how do you how do you drop? That was it's it's I never expected this to be my favorite subject Um But it's but it has become my fit but it's it's so hard I know product Which is why it's my favorite subject because it's The it's the subject where I need to learn the most still And it's uh, and it's also like if you if you're talking product markets fit In my experience. It's the it's the price that still needs the most Optimization before you actually can say that you've reached product market fit because our product I believe strongly in in this perfect For the For the ecosystem But how do you how do you make it accessible? By by you know by having Certain price points and certain products that have a certain price and so when we launched the platform Um We introduced a lot of new concepts, right? So I talked about the versioning system. I talked how we call websites tenants And then there's this thing called snapshots, which is basically a template But you make a snapshot of a version and then that snapshot is used to Create new tenants And we have an API which for some Is also something that's new and they need to learn. So there's a lot going on Um, and we help you, you know get used to that and then and we help you get started But we wanted to keep the pricing simple at least So initially when we launched The platform, we said all sites are 15 dollars Per month But we charged by the hour because we want to encourage people to spin up new sites so that they can test features Okay, so if you Deleted that there an hour you only pay for the hour And uh, and that really helped us get started and get going but then we really Yeah, but they're interesting Yeah, but still I mean it It did we realized that it was um Sometimes a bit overkill for people like not everybody needs all the bells and whistles and needs Needs all the performance and all the scalability they Want something that's you know more accessible And obviously we We we came up with a price point that you know at your startup. So you're trying to you're not charging the rules For a site and it's highly competitive still with other solutions in terms of um, the price per site So we needed to find a way to make the Product more make the platform more accessible while not becoming while not Cutting into any profit margin. We would have in the future so um So we actually started stripping down the product so at them at the time we were offering one container That we choose for you and then we scale your sites And so now we came up with a new pricing model where you can actually choose from three containers And you can also choose a scalability plan on three three levels and then also you can Actually skip the the scalability plans and go for metered instead And metered means that you get to decide the minimum number of containers and the maximum number of containers that We can scale to At any point in time. So if your websites are really busy will scale up But if everybody's ([Time 0:37:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fa3780dd-d070-4f05-ab2d-3d2a204f951a))