Former Occultist to Bethel Alum Tried to Warn Kris...

Former Occultist to Bethel Alum Tried to Warn Kris... ![rw-book-cover](https://d34adp677peecb.cloudfront.net/static/images/article0.00998d930354.png) 🔗 **Source:** [Former Occultist to Bethel Alum Tried to Warn Kris...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcPOoKlEIKE) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [bethel-church, spiritual-abuse, occult-deliverance, charismatic-movement, discernment-ministry] > author: John Mark Baker; David Fish (hosts) — guest Dusty May Taylor > source: Minor Prophets Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcPOoKlEIKE > date created: 2026-08-11 > > > [!info] Generated analysis — not the author's words. Sections below are machine-written > > from the captured source. Only text inside `> [!quote]` blocks is verbatim from the author. > > Do not quote or attribute any other line to the named author. > > # 🏷️ Title: Former Occultist to Bethel Alum Tried to Warn Kris... *(title as supplied; YouTube truncated it — likely continues "...Vallotton")* >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [🔗 References (in-page)](#-references-in-page) - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#️-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) - [🔄 Refactor Appendix](#-refactor-appendix--former-occultist-to-bethel-alum-tried-to-warn-kris) ### 🔗 References (in-page) - Deuteronomy 18:9–12 (paraphrased on-air, not read from a specific translation) - *Physics of Heaven*, ed. Judy Franklin (Destiny Image) — foreword/endorsement tied to Bill Johnson - *Dreaming with God*, Bill Johnson - The Passion Translation, Brian Simmons (referenced as the subject of the hosts' prior videos, not covered in this excerpt) - C. S. Lewis, *The Screwtape Letters*, preface (quoted by David Fish) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened.** Dusty May Taylor — a Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM) alumna and admin of an unofficial BSSM alumni group — recounts growing up in a household with generational occult practice, describes a teenage deliverance experience, her subsequent path into Bethel Church's BSSM program, and a 2019 email exchange in which she says she warned Bethel leader Kris Vallotton (transcribed here as "Chris Valatin," almost certainly a mishearing/auto-caption error) that the Bethel-endorsed book *Physics of Heaven* was teaching ideas she recognized from her occult upbringing. - **Why it matters.** This is a first-person insider account — not neutral reporting — feeding into an ongoing public discernment-ministry critique of Bethel Church and adjacent charismatic institutions (the same channel has covered The Passion Translation). It's evidentiary material for anyone researching institutional response patterns to internal doctrinal warnings. - **Key stakeholders.** Dusty May Taylor (guest, BSSM alumna); Kris Vallotton (named Bethel leader, not present to respond); Bill Johnson (Bethel senior leader, author of *Dreaming with God*, credited with endorsing *Physics of Heaven*); Judy Franklin (author/compiler of *Physics of Heaven*, described as Bill Johnson's assistant); Elijah Stevens (a separate Bethel-adjacent figure Dusty says was independently raising the same concern); John Mark Baker and David Fish (hosts, Minor Prophets Podcast). - **Risks and tradeoffs.** The email exchange is presented from memory, years later, paraphrased by one party — it is not a primary document (no screenshots read aloud, no verbatim email text beyond short paraphrased lines). Treat Vallotton's quoted responses as *Dusty's recollection of his responses*, not verified transcript of his words. The content also includes disclosures of childhood abuse and a passing reference to sexual assault ("SA") — this note flags that for anyone reusing the material downstream. - **Bottom line.** A survivor-testimony-plus-institutional-critique episode: strong on lived experience and internal doctrinal reasoning, weak on independently verifiable documentation of the central claim (Vallotton's alleged dismissiveness). The transcript supplied cuts off mid-sentence before the episode's discussion of *Physics of Heaven*'s authorship concludes. ## 📖 Main Content The episode's throughline is a single conversion/deliverance narrative used as the interpretive lens for an institutional critique. Dusty frames her authority to critique Bethel not as an outside critic but as a former insider whose occult background gives her pattern-recognition that (she argues) Bethel's more doctrinally conventional members lack. The hosts position her as filling a gap they name explicitly: "charismatics who care about great theology" being "spiritually homeless" — caught between cessationist communities that pathologize supernatural experience and experiential communities (Bethel) that, in her account, under-teach the darker or more judgment-oriented parts of scripture. Two threads run in parallel: (1) a personal deliverance story used to establish credibility and interpretive framework, and (2) an institutional accountability story (the 2019 email to Vallotton) used to make a policy-level claim: that Bethel's leadership had — and, in her telling, downplayed — a direct warning about occult-adjacent content in a book it had implicitly endorsed. ### 🗒️ Notes *(No timestamps were present in the supplied transcript, so notes are organized thematically rather than by timecode.)* #### Occult upbringing and early encounters with God - Generational occult practice on the maternal side (psychic-reading grandmother, mother's witchcraft practice); described household manifestations witnessed by multiple third parties (a boyfriend, other relatives), not just Dusty. - Her first conscious "presence of God" memory is dated to age 3, via a grandmother reading a Bible story book — she frames this as evidence the experience predates any doctrinal framing, which is doing argumentative work (see Logical Validity below). - A recurring nightmare figure ("this man in the corner") threatening her is described across childhood — presented as demonic, not clinically framed (no mention of clinical evaluation for the recurring nightmares/dissociation). #### Family theological conflict - Baptist paternal relatives (father, grandmother) responded to her reported spiritual experiences by categorizing them as either "not real" or "demonic," and told her to pray her prophetic gifting away — she frames this as leaving her without tools, not as protective caution. - Maternal aunt (new-age/psychic-fair-oriented) offered the opposite error: framing all spiritual openness as good because "Jesus wants you to be open to everything." - Dusty explicitly names this as the formative bind: neither camp offered an integrated framework for someone already experiencing both. #### Deliverance narrative (~age 17) - Best friend (Greek Orthodox) reports Dusty's eyes appearing black and her voice/speech distorting during a visit — presented as an outside, non-Dusty witness account, which strengthens (without fully independently verifying) the demonic-manifestation framing. > [!quote] > "Duster, why are your eyes black?" - Returning home, opening her Bible "at random" to Deuteronomy 18 becomes the turning point. > [!quote] > "There shall not be found any among you who practice like witchcraft, sorcery, divination, necromancy, causing your son or daughter to pass through the fire." - A physical event (a cat figurine allegedly flying off a shelf) is reported as corroborating evidence of a demonic presence responding to the encounter — again, uncorroborated by any second witness in this account. #### Path to Bethel / BSSM - Prior to Bethel, Dusty describes leaving a "charismatic high-control church" with cell-line reporting structures and financial/vocational control (told not to take a job that conflicted with Wednesday services) — this is offered as her baseline for "controlling," against which she explicitly contrasts Bethel. - Discovery of Bill Johnson's *Dreaming with God* is the stated bridge into BSSM enrollment. - She interned in her third year with Elijah Stevens — later revealed (by David Fish) to have been separately and privately pressuring Bethel leadership on the same *Physics of Heaven* concern, unbeknownst to Dusty at the time. #### Bethel culture assessment (mixed) - Positive: describes Bethel/BSSM as non-cynical, relationally warm, and — in explicit contrast to her prior high-control church — genuinely tolerant of internal disagreement ("you can think your own thoughts"). - Negative: reports an institutional aversion to teaching on the wrath/judgment of God, and reports being told her preference for calling God "Lord" (rather than "Abba, Daddy") was pathologized as evidence of unresolved "father issues" — she pushes back on this directly on air. - She explicitly links the doctrinal gap (no wrath/judgment teaching) to vulnerability to error, and separately raises "West Coast regions... Mount Shasta" as a speculative environmental/spiritual-geography factor — flagged here as the weakest-evidenced claim in the episode (see Logical Validity). #### The 2019 email to Vallotton - Dusty says she wrote a respectful, deferential email to "Chris Valatin" (near-certainly Kris Vallotton, Bethel's co-senior leader, publicly known as a "prophet" within the movement) after reading *Physics of Heaven* post-graduation and recognizing "quantum mysticism" language she associates with her family's occult practice. - She reports his first reply minimized the concern ("there's some not great ideas in that book, but I only endorsed it cuz she's a friend"). - She reports pressing further, citing real-world downstream harms she says she has personally observed (people practicing "Christian card reading," "prophetic art" treated as "power objects," people she knows leaving the faith or entering "Christian witchcraft"). > [!quote] > "not every snake is a snake is a bad snake because of you know, Nahushin, the the snake on the pole." - This reply — invoking the bronze serpent of Numbers 21 (a typology of Christ, per historic Christian reading, e.g. John 3:14) — is used by Dusty (and implicitly the hosts) as an example of leadership deflecting a content-specific concern with an unrelated typological reference. **Caveat:** this is Dusty's paraphrase of a private exchange, years later; it is not offered as a documented quote. ## 📚 References - [Bethel Church (Redding, CA)](https://bethelredding.com/) — the institution under discussion - [Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry](https://bssm.net/) — BSSM, the school Dusty attended - *Physics of Heaven*, compiled/edited by Judy Franklin (Destiny Image Publishers) — primary text of the central controversy; not independently reviewed for this note - *Dreaming with God*, Bill Johnson (Destiny Image Publishers) — cited as Dusty's on-ramp to Bethel - C. S. Lewis, *The Screwtape Letters*, Preface — source of the "two equal and opposite errors" framing David Fish invokes - The Passion Translation controversy (Brian Simmons) — referenced as prior work by this channel; not covered in the supplied transcript excerpt ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Paragraph A: Dusty grew up in a home where the demonic wasn't a doctrine but daily reality — generational witchcraft on her mother's side, a devout Baptist grandmother on her father's side, and a childhood spent translating between the two. She says God met her before either side had a chance to explain him to her, and that the "presence of God" she felt at three years old outlasted years of abuse, dissociation, and eventual heavy occult practice as a teenager, until a Deuteronomy passage and a friend's horrified reaction to her own eyes triggered a violent, physical repentance. - Paragraph B: That deliverance sent her looking for a Christian community that could hold both the reality of the demonic and healthy boundaries around it — first into a controlling church, then into Bethel, which she found relationally healing but doctrinally lopsided. Reading *Physics of Heaven* after graduating, she recognized language she'd absorbed from her family's occult practice now dressed in Christian vocabulary, wrote privately to Kris Vallotton to warn him, and — in her account — was met with friendliness but not correction. ## 📰 Newsletter Not applicable to this source — this is a religious testimony/discernment-ministry interview with no WordPress, developer-tooling, or open-source content to summarize for a WordPress-focused audience. ## ✅ Action Items Not applicable to this source — the DevRel/OSPO/Community/WordPress/WPOCC/FAIR action-item taxonomy targets open-source and WordPress ecosystem work, which this episode does not touch. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - **H1:** Charismatic communities that emphasize experiential encounter over systematic doctrinal grounding show higher rates of members adopting non-Christian metaphysical frameworks (e.g., "law of attraction," "quantum mysticism") under Christian vocabulary. - **H2:** Converts with a documented history of childhood occult/ritual exposure who join high-experiential charismatic communities without trauma-informed discipleship report higher rates of subsequent spiritual confusion, relapse into esoteric practice, or disillusionment. - **H3:** Institutional response pattern to an internal doctrinal warning (minimize vs. substantively engage) predicts whether the concern becomes a public controversy within 1–5 years. - **H4:** Congregations that systematically avoid teaching on divine judgment/wrath show measurably lower member discernment scores when evaluating pseudo-Christian esoteric content, relative to matched congregations that teach the full counsel of scripture. - **H5:** Informal alumni-run accountability groups (e.g., unofficial BSSM alumni communities) function as an early-warning channel that formal institutional leadership systematically under-responds to relative to its signal quality. ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative textual analysis of *Physics of Heaven* against documented new-age/occult source material, coded for terminology overlap (e.g., "quantum mysticism," manifestation language). - Survey instrument administered to BSSM alumni (via the unofficial alumni group Dusty co-admins) measuring pre-Bethel occult exposure, doctrinal formation on wrath/judgment, and post-Bethel esoteric-practice adoption. - Case-study coding of institutional responses (minimize / redirect / correct / discipline) to internal doctrinal warnings across several discernment-ministry controversies (Bethel, IHOPKC referenced by the hosts as a structural parallel, others), correlated with whether the concern later went public. - If email correspondence can be obtained with consent (from Dusty or Vallotton's office), primary-document analysis rather than reliance on recollection. ### ❓ Questions - What specific passages in *Physics of Heaven* mirror language Dusty says she recognizes from her family's occult practice — verified side by side rather than asserted? - Did Bethel leadership issue any subsequent correction, disclaimer, or errata regarding *Physics of Heaven* after 2019, independent of this account? - Is there documentary corroboration (screenshots, forwarded emails) for the Vallotton exchange, or does it remain a single-party recollection? - How many BSSM alumni report the same "recognized my occult past in Bethel teaching" pattern Dusty describes, and is it a minority or a common on-ramp? - What became of the "prophetic art as power objects" and "Christian card reading" practices Dusty says she observed inside Bethel-adjacent circles? ### 🔮 Future Research - A post-2019 tracking study of *Physics of Heaven*'s publication status, endorsements, and any retraction or revision. - A structural comparison of Bethel's and IHOPKC's (International House of Prayer Kansas City) institutional responses to internal doctrinal criticism, since the hosts explicitly draw that parallel. - A trauma-informed pastoral care literature review specific to converts from documented occult/ritual-abuse backgrounds entering high-experiential charismatic communities. ### 💡 Implications - **Pastoral care practice:** Suggests a concrete need for trauma-informed intake protocols for converts disclosing occult/ritual-abuse backgrounds, distinct from generic new-member onboarding. - **Publishing/editorial accountability:** Raises the question of what accountability structure (if any) governs a senior leader's personal endorsement of a book under a ministry's broader brand. - **Education (BSSM curriculum):** If the wrath/judgment teaching gap is real and widespread (not just Dusty's experience), it's a testable curricular finding, not just an anecdote. - **Funding models:** Donor-funded ministries with informal, alumni-driven accountability (rather than external board oversight) may structurally under-respond to internal warnings — relevant to anyone evaluating governance of similar organizations. ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - **Reading level estimate:** Approximately 6th–7th grade equivalent (Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level, estimated rather than computed) — short spoken clauses, heavy use of contractions, frequent self-interruption and filler ("um," "like," "sorry I ramble"), minimal subordinate-clause density. Typical of unedited conversational speech, not written prose. #### 👀 Visual learners - **Present:** None — pure audio/transcript, no diagrams, timeline graphics, or on-screen text described. - **Improve:** A simple annotated timeline (childhood → deliverance → Bethel → 2019 email → present) would substantially help viewers track the chronology, which the narrative itself jumps around. #### 🔊 Aural learners - **Present:** Strong fit — this is native audio/podcast content; tone, pacing, and emotional inflection (crying, laughter) carry meaning the transcript alone loses. - **Improve:** N/A — format already serves this learning style well. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - **Present:** Concrete personal anecdotes and analogies (the C. S. Lewis "two errors" framing) aid verbal processors. - **Improve:** A glossary of insider terms used without definition (BSSM, "cell line," "Nahushin/bronze serpent typology," "quantum mysticism") would help listeners outside the charismatic subculture. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - **Present:** None inherent to an interview format. - **Improve:** N/A — not a natural fit for this content type; no action recommended. #### 🧠 Logical learners - **Present:** Some causal reasoning is made explicit (doctrinal gap → vulnerability to error). - **Improve:** A simple claim-evidence table (claim / type of evidence / corroboration status) would let logical learners evaluate the institutional-critique claims independent of narrative flow — this note's Logical Validity section below is a step toward that. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - **Present:** Strong — the episode is explicitly framed as community-building ("charismatics who care about great theology... spiritually homeless"), and Dusty references co-administering a peer support group. - **Improve:** N/A — already well served. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - **Present:** Minimal built-in reflection prompts. - **Improve:** A closing set of self-assessment questions ("Have I recognized language like this in my own community?") would help solitary processors engage without needing discussion. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - **Present:** None. - **Improve:** N/A — not a natural fit for this content type. ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment *(Assessed from the transcript only; the actual video's captions, contrast, and player behavior were not independently reviewed.)* #### Screen reader semantics - **Present:** A transcript exists, which is the single most important accessibility input for this format. - **Improve:** Cannot verify from transcript alone whether YouTube's native captions are auto-generated (lower accuracy) or creator-uploaded; recommend confirming and correcting auto-caption errors given the number of names/terms (Vallotton, BSSM, Nahushin) likely to be mis-transcribed. #### Keyboard navigation - **Present:** Standard YouTube player keyboard controls apply platform-wide; nothing content-specific to assess. - **Improve:** Not applicable to the content itself. #### Contrast and readability - **Present:** Not assessable from a transcript. - **Improve:** Not assessable — would require visual review of the video. #### Text resizing and reflow - **Present:** Not applicable to a talking-head interview format. - **Improve:** N/A. #### Media and captions - **Present:** A transcript/captions clearly exist (this note is built from one). - **Improve:** No timestamps were present in the supplied transcript — recommend confirming timestamped captions are available in the actual YouTube player, since this note cannot verify that. #### Forms and interactions - **Present:** Not applicable — no forms in a video/podcast episode. - **Improve:** N/A. #### Standards reference - Maps to WCAG 2.2 AA 1.2.2 (Captions, Prerecorded) — satisfied if captions are accurate; 1.2.3/1.2.5 (Audio Description) — status unknown, not assessable from transcript alone. ## 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Single-region, single-subculture perspective: North American (references to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada) charismatic evangelical Christianity. No multilingual content, no cross-cultural comparison. #### Inclusive language - Generally plain-language and accessible, though it assumes familiarity with charismatic-movement jargon (BSSM, "impartation," "prophetic," "cell line") without definition. #### Neurodiversity support - Low structural chunking: long, run-on, associative storytelling with frequent self-interruption ("sorry I ramble," "anyway"). Could be genuinely difficult to follow for listeners who benefit from linear, chunked narrative. - **Improve:** A chaptered/timestamped outline (which this note attempts to approximate) would materially help. #### Representation - Centers a female survivor's voice directly and without a male host talking over her — notable positive. - The framing of non-Christian spiritual practice (witchcraft, psychic reading, new age) is uniformly negative/adversarial throughout, which is coherent with the speaker's own testimony and theological position but would read as othering to practitioners of those traditions; readers should hold that framing as the subject's own belief system, not a neutral description. #### Psychological safety - **Content warning warranted:** the episode includes disclosures of childhood abuse, domestic occult ritual exposure, and one indirect reference to sexual assault ("I'd experienced some like SA stuff"). Anyone republishing or citing this note should carry a content warning forward. - The hosts create space for the guest's emotional responses (acknowledged crying) without visible pressure to perform distress, which is a positive interviewing practice. ## ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Inductive, location: deliverance narrative.** Dusty's inference that her childhood "presence of God" experience predates and is independent of any doctrinal framing (because it occurred before she had Christian vocabulary to describe it) is a reasonable inductive argument from personal memory — it can't be independently verified, but it's internally consistent and she doesn't overclaim beyond what memory can support. - **Analogical, location: pattern-recognition claim about *Physics of Heaven*.** Recognizing recurring terminology ("quantum mysticism," manifestation language) across two different contexts (family occult practice and a Bethel-endorsed book) is a legitimate use of lived-experience expertise as evidence — this is the strongest argument in the episode because it's falsifiable in principle (the terminology can be checked against the book's actual text). #### Fallacies - **False analogy / non-sequitur, location: reported Vallotton reply about the "snake."** Responding to a content-specific concern (occult terminology in a book) with an unrelated typological reference (the bronze serpent of Numbers 21 as a type of Christ) doesn't engage the substance of the warning — it substitutes a different, positive "snake" symbol for the concern being raised. **Fix:** the reply would need to address whether the specific terminology flagged is or isn't occult-adjacent, not invoke a different biblical symbol that happens to share the word "snake." - **Possible hasty generalization, location: "the enemy has a plan for Bethel... Mount Shasta is nearby, it's like an occult hub."** Dusty herself hedges this ("I don't know if some of the leaders were conscious of it"), which is good epistemic practice, but the geographic-spiritual-influence claim is offered with no evidentiary standard by which it could be falsified. **Fix:** flag this explicitly as speculative framing rather than established causation, which to her credit she partially does on her own. #### Tone of voice - Sincere, emotionally vulnerable, reverent toward the institution even while critiquing it ("I love Bethel," "Papa Chris... I love and respect you"). Notably not accusatory in register despite the content of the accusation — this is a testimony-plus-concern tone, not an exposé tone. ## 🛡️ DARVO Analysis *(DARVO — Deny, Attack, Reverse victim/offender — assessed only against the specific exchange described: Dusty's 2019 warning email and Vallotton's reported replies. All three components require direct evidence; two are not present in this transcript.)* - **Deny:** Present, per Dusty's account. The reported reply — "there's some not great ideas in that book, but I only endorsed it cuz she's a friend" — minimizes the substance of the warning (reframing "occult-adjacent teaching" down to "not great ideas") and offers a personal-relationship justification rather than engaging the content concern. - **Attack:** **Not present in this transcript.** No account is given of Vallotton attacking Dusty's credibility, character, or motives. This component of DARVO should not be asserted from this material. - **Reverse victim/offender:** **Not present in this transcript.** No account is given of Vallotton casting himself or Bethel as the wronged party. This component should not be asserted from this material. - **Emotional cues / rhetoric:** The friendly, casual tone Dusty reports ("thank you, it's cool that you care") functions rhetorically to close the conversation without conflict — worth naming as a minimization pattern even though it falls short of full DARVO. Related fallacy: the false-analogy "snake" reply noted above functions as a deflection. ## 🎯 Conclusion - **Bottom line:** This is a credible-sounding, emotionally serious first-person account that makes a specific, falsifiable institutional claim (Bethel leadership was warned in 2019 about occult-adjacent content in an endorsed book and did not substantively act on it) — but the claim currently rests on one party's years-later recollection of a private exchange, not on documentary evidence presented in this excerpt. The personal deliverance narrative is independently strong as testimony; the institutional-accountability claim needs corroboration to move from "allegation" to "documented pattern." - **Practical next steps for readers:** (1) Don't repeat the Vallotton exchange as verified quotation — attribute it explicitly to Dusty's recollection. (2) If pursuing this further, seek the actual 2019 email thread or Elijah Stevens's independent account as corroboration. (3) Treat the "Mount Shasta / occult hub" geographic claim as speculative color, not evidence. (4) The supplied transcript is incomplete (cuts off mid-sentence discussing *Physics of Heaven*'s authorship) — retrieve the remainder before drawing final conclusions about that thread. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — Former Occultist to Bethel Alum Tried to Warn Kris > Density: 3 Literature atoms, 1 Permanent candidate. Resonance filter applied — several other candidate atoms (the cell-line church critique, the "father wound" pushback) were strong but didn't clear the reusability bar for a Permanent note this round. ### 📚 Literature Atoms #### Deuteronomy 18 triggers Dusty's occult-deliverance encounter > [!quote] ID:transcript_deut18 > There shall not be found any among you who practice like witchcraft, sorcery, divination, necromancy, causing your son or daughter to pass through the fire. **Context & use**: - Occurs at the narrative's climax, immediately after a friend reports Dusty's eyes appearing black. - Functions as the interpretive hinge of her entire testimony — everything before is "occult," everything after is "deliverance." **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: transcript excerpt, no source URL timestamp available  #### Vallotton reply deflects occult-content concern via serpent analogy > [!quote] ID:transcript_snake_reply > not every snake is a snake is a bad snake because of you know, Nahushin, the the snake on the pole. **Context & use**: - Reported as Kris Vallotton's second response to Dusty's warning about *Physics of Heaven*. - Recollection, not documented quote — treat accordingly downstream. **Tags**: #xref #addendum **Highlight**: transcript excerpt, no source URL timestamp available  #### Physics of Heaven names the pattern Dusty recognizes > [!quote] ID:transcript_physics_of_heaven > It took me until after Bethl when I actually read Physics of Heaven, and I saw it so blatant **Context & use**: - The moment Dusty says she connected Bethel-endorsed teaching to her family's occult vocabulary. - Directly precedes her decision to email Vallotton — causally central to the episode's institutional-critique thread. **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: transcript excerpt, no source URL timestamp available  ### 🧠 Permanent Candidates #### Suppressing divine judgment invites occult reframing **Claim** (Courtney's voice): A community that teaches only the affirming side of God's character, and avoids teaching on judgment or wrath, strips its members of the theological vocabulary needed to name occult ideas when those ideas reappear dressed in Christian language. **Evidence pointer**: [[#Physics of Heaven names the pattern Dusty recognizes]] **Scope & conditions**: Holds when a community's doctrinal formation is experience-first and correction-averse. Breaks when a community teaches full-counsel doctrine but individual members still miss the pattern — that's a formation failure, not a systemic one, and shouldn't be conflated with this claim. **Links**: - [[Spiritual abuse]] — because extends (this is one mechanism by which doctrinally imbalanced communities become sites of harm, not the only one) - [[Discernment ministry]] — because applies-in (this is the operating theory most discernment-ministry critiques of experiential charismatic movements implicitly rely on) - [[Charismatic movement]] — because contrasts on emphasis (cessationist communities have the opposite imbalance: over-teaching judgment, under-teaching gifting — see the Baptist-relative thread in this same episode)  ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Confirm "Chris Valatin" is an auto-caption error for "Kris Vallotton" (Bethel's co-senior leader) before citing this anywhere — high confidence but unverified in this excerpt. #xref - [F2] Locate the full, uncut episode — this transcript ends mid-sentence on Judy Franklin's role as *Physics of Heaven*'s compiler and Bill Johnson's endorsement. #xref ### → Things 3 - [ ] Verify Kris Vallotton's name/role and cross-check the 2019 email claim against any independent corroboration (Elijah Stevens's account, screenshots) before treating it as documented — research #things ★ Insight ───────────────────────────────────── This note deliberately marks the WordPress-flavored boilerplate (Action Items, Newsletter) as "Not applicable" rather than force-fitting content — the `readwise-deep-read` skill's template was built for a mixed WordPress/general-reading pipeline, and honestly scoping sections to "doesn't apply here" keeps the note trustworthy instead of padding it with fabricated relevance. The DARVO section is a good example of a discipline worth carrying elsewhere: the framework has three components (Deny/Attack/Reverse), and the source material only supports one of them. Asserting all three because the framework "expects" them would have overclaimed against a named, real institution based on one party's years-later recollection — the more defensible move is reporting which components are evidenced and explicitly saying the rest aren't. ───────────────────────────────────────────────── Given the reference had no reachable `document_id` and I have no confirmation the Reader/YouTube pipeline scripts (`youtube_to_readwise.py`, `mirror_notes.py`) are wired up in this environment, I stopped short of pushing this to Reader or the vault automatically — want me to go ahead and save it via the Readwise MCP tool now, or do you want to review the analysis first? --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] And I was just like, am I doing [00:01] something wrong, Jesus? Like I feel like [00:02] I'm doing something wrong. Um, and like [00:07] it was the first time as an adult I felt [00:10] the presence of God. Like it was like [00:13] fire and love. I was like scared but [00:16] also felt loved. Um, and it was so [00:19] strong and so thick. And I fell to my [00:22] knees on my bedroom floor and like [00:25] grabbed my Bible and I was like, "What [00:26] am I doing wrong?" song and I just like [00:28] like just opened it and it went to [00:30] Deuteronomy 18. There shall not be found [00:32] any among you who practice like [00:33] witchcraft, sorcery, divination, [00:35] necromancy, causing your son or daughter [00:37] to pass through the fire. Anyone who [00:38] does these things is abomination to me [00:40] because of these things. I drove out the [00:42] nations who are before you. And I read [00:44] it and it went like like fire like and I [00:48] fell in repentance. I remember like just [00:50] shaking and feeling like I was like [00:52] burning and on fire. And I remember [00:53] feeling this like terror of God. I was [00:56] just like in this crazy encounter [00:58] sobbing and like shaking and feeling [01:00] fire and light on the floor and [01:02] repenting like apologizing over and over [01:04] and over. Um, and I don't know how long [01:07] that lasted but when it stopped [01:10] everything was like quiet for the first [01:12] time in so long. It took me a while. It [01:15] took me until after Bethl when I [01:17] actually read Physics of Heaven and I [01:20] saw it so blatant that it was like the [01:22] light bulb went on. [01:25] um that actually the enemy has a plan [01:28] for Bethl and Bethl needs to be warned. [01:30] Um and I wrote to Chris Valatin. [01:36] In this very special episode of the [01:37] Minor Prophets podcast, we speak with [01:39] Dusty May Taylor, a Bethl alumnist who [01:43] has been public about some of her [01:45] concerns with Bethl and the Passion [01:47] Translation. She's a charismatic, but [01:49] like us, she is sounding the alarm on [01:52] some of the things. In this episode, we [01:54] talk about her testimony, how she grew [01:56] up in a spiritual environment inside of [01:58] the occult. She was delivered when she [02:00] repented of her witchcraft and how God [02:04] saved her. Then she talks about her time [02:06] at Bethl. And then some of the concerns [02:08] that honestly she was sensitive to [02:11] because of her background and some of [02:13] the things that she has been calling for [02:15] recently. This honestly was one of my [02:18] favorite episodes so far, one of my [02:20] favorite interviews. It was [02:21] simultaneously encouraging, convicting, [02:24] and informative. I think that you guys [02:26] are going to get a lot out of it. So, [02:28] without further ado, here is the [02:29] interview with Dusty May Taylor. [02:35] Welcome to the Minor Profits podcast. I [02:37] am John Mark Baker and today I am joined [02:40] not only by David Fish, I am also joined [02:44] by Dusty May. Uh Dusty, it is great to [02:48] have you on the podcast. Um, I've seen [02:50] several of your videos uh talking about [02:52] Passion Translation. I really [02:54] appreciated your perspective. For those [02:56] watching, Dusty is a BSSM, that's Bethl [03:00] School of Supernatural Ministry. Uh, [03:02] she's an alumnist from that school. And [03:05] she is one of the admins for the [03:08] unofficial alumni group. Is that [03:10] correct? [03:11] >> Yeah, that's right. So, it's um myself [03:14] and then a couple other people uh also [03:17] help admin. depends on who's got time. [03:19] It's actually kind of you got to be on [03:21] it. So, [03:22] >> yeah. Well, um I really appreciate many [03:25] of the videos that you have made and uh [03:28] um just the perspective that you bring [03:30] is you are a charismatic. You went [03:32] through Bethl. You're trying to sort of [03:34] the word you use is reconstruct some of [03:36] your theology and what you believe about [03:39] uh spiritual gifts and the church and [03:42] God and all of these things. Um, and I [03:45] feel like you come from a very, uh, I [03:47] think grounded and healthy perspective, [03:49] partly because of the the testimony that [03:52] that you have of what the Lord's brought [03:53] you through and what he is bringing you [03:56] through presently. So, welcome to the to [03:59] the show, Dusty. I'm really appreciative [04:00] of of your time here. [04:02] >> Yeah, thank you so much. And you guys [04:04] are amazing. I've been so thankful for [04:05] your videos as they came out. Like, I [04:08] didn't really know about you guys until [04:09] the Passion translation stuff. Um, and [04:11] then I was like, "Oh my gosh, thank you [04:13] so much." Um, cuz charismatics who care [04:16] about great theology seem to be [04:18] spiritually homeless right now. So when [04:20] you see other people and it's like, "Oh, [04:21] you [laughter] [04:22] I don't feel quite so much like an [04:24] anomaly now." So it's great. [04:27] >> No, likewise. Uh, I'm I'm just thankful [04:29] that you're here, Dusty. And again, I I [04:31] was able to catch some of your videos, [04:33] and I'm excited to um to talk more about [04:37] just your own story, your testimony, [04:39] also some of the Passion translation [04:40] stuff. Um your your last video in [04:42] particular was very moving for me [04:44] personally. Not you know, there's [04:45] there's a lot of information and [04:47] theology and footnotes and Syriak and [04:50] you know, there's all these things that [04:51] we that we get that we get into, but I [04:53] your video captured probably better than [04:55] anything we've done like the hardcore of [04:58] why this is so important. And so I I [05:00] just found it not only um you know [05:02] effective in rallying people, but also [05:04] just very moving as you kind of cut to [05:07] the the core of of why some of these [05:09] issues, not just the Passion [05:10] translation, but you know, how the [05:11] Passion translation represents [05:14] a wider issue, a wider dysfunction [05:17] um of kind of discernment in the body of [05:19] Christ. And so I'm excited to hear more [05:21] uh about your story and uh yeah, just [05:24] get to talk about what God might be [05:26] doing right now. [05:27] >> Okay. Um yeah, so where to start? Um I [05:32] come from an upbringing where it's not [05:35] possible to have like a fully [05:37] materialist there is no supernatural [05:39] worldview. Like that would just not be [05:41] possible. Um one side of my family was [05:44] kind of occultic um and like that sounds [05:47] fancier and maybe um more mysterious [05:49] than sometimes it is in reality. They [05:51] liked things of witchcraft. Um it was [05:53] generational. Like my grandmother was [05:55] had a psychic reading spot. um in [05:58] Hamilton before I was born. Um my mother [06:01] had a background in witchcraft um [06:03] cousins and stuff like it it was just a [06:05] thing. I don't know how far back that [06:07] thing goes. Um but along with that you [06:09] just get a lot of dysfunction. Um that's [06:12] often what people actually experience. [06:14] So like sometimes I think when people [06:15] are giving their testimonies um the [06:17] occult has a way of fascinating us like [06:19] that's how it works. It fascinates it [06:21] all. Um, and so people can be like, "Oo, [06:24] like tell me about the occult." And I'm [06:27] like, like woo woo stuff does happen. [06:29] Um, and there's people who are obviously [06:30] seeking power and they're like [06:32] manipulating and like demons show up. [06:34] [laughter] There's like crazy stuff. Um, [06:36] but how it actually works is there's [06:39] tons of abuse. Um, I guess that's one of [06:42] the things that I feel like the church [06:43] doesn't understand is um [06:46] like so occult teachings [06:49] come with occult spirits come with [06:52] dysfunction. Um, and the same thing is [06:55] true in the church. Like when you get [06:56] into deceit and deception, um, there's [06:59] false spirits that come along with it [07:01] and that comes along with like actual [07:04] real life practical consequences. And [07:06] sometimes you're seeing just what's [07:08] happening naturally and you have no idea [07:09] that there's a spiritual route. It [07:11] depends on how aware you are. Okay, so [07:13] that's my soap box. Um, so the [07:15] upbringing itself, mom's side, occultic [07:18] and then my father kind of rebelled [07:21] against his extremely Baptist deacon [07:24] mother. She unfortunately married a [07:27] really like somebody who became very [07:28] abusive and because of the theology in [07:30] the Baptist church like she was like I [07:32] must stay no matter what forever. She [07:35] was a very faithful woman. Um, and so my [07:37] dad ended up kind of troubled. Uh, you [07:40] rebelled and ended up with my mother. [07:41] So, I just feel like it's this very [07:43] strange clash of worlds. They split up [07:45] very early on and I was left with my [07:47] mother. Like, I have early memories of [07:50] just being afraid. Like, this is how the [07:53] occult upbringing actually works. You're [07:54] like always scared. My earliest memories [07:56] were being afraid of my mother and then [07:58] my grandmother when I was 3 years old on [08:01] a visit to my father. So, um, my [08:04] grandmother being a great Baptist [08:06] deaconess, knew her gospel and like [08:09] understood how to preach it and [08:11] evangelize, um, from the word. And so, [08:14] my first memory of knowing who Jesus [08:17] was, was my granny reading a Bible story [08:19] book to me at my father's house on a [08:22] visit. And I just remember feeling like [08:26] what we would describe as the presence [08:28] of God. Um, I just understood it as like [08:30] love and like something is with, like [08:33] I'm not alone. And I can still see that [08:35] memory. It was almost like the room was [08:38] um, like full of like warm light, like [08:42] visually that's how I remember it. Um, [08:45] especially like over this Bible story [08:47] book. And I remember my grandmother's [08:48] voice and she was telling me about Jesus [08:51] loving the little children and how he [08:53] died on the cross for our sins and he's [08:55] the son of God. [08:56] And I remember like a voice being like, [09:00] "Yes, I'm Jesus. Um, listen to your [09:04] grandmother." Like, "Listen to your [09:06] granny." Um, and I remember feeling [09:09] like, "Oh, so that's who that is." Like [09:12] I knew him already. The presence of God [09:14] had already visited me and like um in [09:17] times where I'd been afraid and stuff [09:18] like that. I have earlier memories that [09:20] are like weird. Um but like I would feel [09:22] the presence of God come and then after [09:25] that I never saw my dad's side for like [09:27] years um for external circumstances. So [09:32] I was then with my mother and like our [09:37] house was [laughter] was like haunted. [09:40] Um so this was a house where if you were [09:42] alone like there were literal presences [09:45] and shadows. It wasn't just me who saw [09:48] it. People who would come to the house. [09:49] My mom had um like boyfriends and stuff. [09:52] One of them ran out of the house [09:53] screaming in the middle of the night. [09:55] [laughter] No, he he tried to. She [09:57] stopped him. He got up and was getting [09:58] ready to run out of the house because an [10:00] apparition loomed over him in the night [10:02] and like um touched my mother's neck and [10:05] she woke up and her neck was bruised and [10:07] she was like, "No, it's a good spirit [10:09] warning me that you're going to harm [10:10] me." Um and he was like totally shaken. [10:13] Um, one of my other relatives saw like a [10:16] head floating [laughter] in the yard, [10:19] like this apparition. Um, and I just [10:21] used to feel fear. There were shadows. [10:24] Um, I would have terrible nightmares. [10:26] And there was um, there was a man who [10:29] would appear in my nightmares, but the [10:31] nightmare was actually my actual [10:33] bedroom. So, it was hard to know if I [10:34] was awake or asleep. And the whole room [10:36] would be full of fear and like power, [10:41] like dark power. and it was like black, [10:43] but it was also kind of like fire. Um, [10:46] and there would be this figure, this man [10:48] in the corner, and he repeated like I [10:51] would sense this man. um like sometimes [10:55] in dreams throughout my childhood and [10:57] then sometimes just I would be trying to [10:58] go to sleep and it'd be like I know this [11:01] man is here like um and [clears throat] [11:03] I don't know why everybody else saw like [11:05] women and I saw a man but um anyways he [11:07] like would he said to me I remember in [11:09] one dream like I'm going to destroy you [11:13] and I'm going to kill everybody and [11:14] everything you love and you will never [11:16] escape. It was like this sense of [11:18] ownership. Um, super freaky. And so I [11:23] would remember Jesus and I would like [11:26] pull my blanket over my head and like [11:28] bury myself in my pillow and be like [11:30] like Jesus help me [laughter] [11:32] kind of like I would just be like [11:33] praying in my head. But I didn't know [11:36] anything about um [clears throat] like [11:38] being able to command a spirit to like [11:40] leave you in Jesus. like I had no tools [11:43] um at all and I didn't have a Bible [11:45] story book or anything like that. I [11:47] would also see weird things outside. [11:50] Anyway, so my house was weird. Um [11:53] I don't know if that if any of that is [11:55] like useful information. I could tell [11:56] you all sorts of stories about how weird [11:58] this house was and how weird things got. [12:00] >> Well, I mean I I believe it that there's [12:02] a guy um you know I I led to to the [12:05] Lord. He's a a friend of mine, but [12:07] before he was a Christian, he was into [12:10] like necromancy and and stuff. He was [12:12] like [12:13] >> trying to trying to summon spirits and [12:15] he was really deeply into witchcraft. [12:19] And I didn't I had no idea that he was [12:21] into all that stuff. Um, and he invited [12:24] me over to his apartment. And I remember [12:27] walking in and feeling like I like I got [12:29] super dizzy all of a sudden. I felt like [12:31] I was going to faint and I felt like I [12:32] was going to throw up. And I was like, I [12:35] have to get the heck out of here. What [12:37] is going on here? [12:39] >> Um, over time though, the story ends [12:42] awesome. He's still serving Jesus to [12:44] this day. Like it was maybe 10 years ago [12:46] that I brought him to the church. And [12:48] um, I wasn't uh I played a role in [12:50] leading him to Christ, but uh it was [12:52] actually one of his friends that led him [12:55] in a prayer of repentance and stuff. It [12:57] was like it was really cool. So Jesus [12:59] Jesus redeems those things. But I can [13:01] attest like the demonic realm is real [13:05] and people can perceive it in various [13:08] ways. Some people get overly fascinated [13:10] with some of the ways in which we [13:13] perceive those things. But [13:15] >> if you believe the Bible, you have to [13:17] believe that there are demons. [13:20] >> Yeah. [13:22] >> Yeah. 100%. I was just going to say [13:24] really quickly because I I want to get [13:25] get it uh punt the ball back to you [13:27] Dusty, but I was going to [13:29] >> uh kind of tag team off that John Mark. [13:31] There's there's that great CS Lewis [13:33] quote uh at the beginning of Screw Tape [13:35] Letters where he he basically says right [13:37] there are two equal and opposite errors [13:41] that we can fall into when it comes to [13:43] uh demons. One is to disbelieve their [13:47] existence, right? And he says the other [13:49] is to believe and to feel an excessive [13:52] and unhealthy interest in them. And he [13:54] says they themselves are equally pleased [13:56] by both errors and hail a materialist or [13:59] a magician with the same uh delight. And [14:02] so it I love that you you even prefaced, [14:05] you know, at the very beginning one like [14:08] that you can't go back to like a [14:10] materialist worldview, right? And we're [14:12] we're very clear on this channel, right? [14:14] Not all cessationists have a materialist [14:17] materialist worldview at all. But on the [14:19] extremes, there are some people they [14:21] can't. Yeah, [14:22] >> correct. But there are some people who [14:24] um their cessationism actually is a mask [14:26] for and this is a small group of people, [14:28] I think, but is a mask for materialism [14:30] because it it it's we're we're as human [14:33] beings, right? We're we're programmed to [14:34] like go to extremes. either we jump full [14:38] into like, you know, Sean Foy where he's [14:40] like, I cleaned out every object from my [14:42] house cuz I think I might have an object [14:43] that maybe somebody cursed like 20 years [14:45] ago and it's, you know, we get crazy [14:46] about it and obsessed. Um, so I just [14:49] wanted to like hear from you as you [14:50] think about your own upbringing, your [14:52] own testimony, how has that influenced [14:54] the way um, as you've as you began and [14:58] maybe just continue on in your testimony [14:59] of how kind of the Lord reached you, but [15:02] how has that kind of influenced the way [15:03] you see the church, the way you see the [15:05] Lord um, in your own relationship? [15:07] >> Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. So, there's a [15:11] couple more points of information that [15:12] I'll need to give you to give you [15:13] context for that. Um, so I can kind of [15:17] fast forward like things continued to be [15:19] weird. I occas I had one vision the Lord [15:22] brought me into of like a train wreck [15:24] that was on the news and I was like this [15:27] anyways it was this weird vision and I [15:29] saw this natural disaster and I was like [15:31] ah God somebody needs to help and I saw [15:32] like angels going to minister to the [15:34] people and I came out of this like [15:35] trance and I told my mother and she was [15:37] like you're freaking me out and she was [15:39] like this um and then we were like went [15:41] to my grandpa's house and like the train [15:43] wreck was on the news and she was like [15:44] fully and then like there were times [15:46] where the Lord she was very abusive and [15:48] very dark and the Lord would Like I [15:50] would look at her and I'd be like, [15:51] "God's giving you a chance, mommy. Like [15:53] he wants you to serve him." I remember [15:56] saying these things and she would look [15:57] at me and like the hair would go up on [15:58] her arms. She was like, "Stop freaking [16:00] me out." Um and like so that kind of um [16:03] the reason I'm mentioning that is this [16:05] plays into I think why I'm I get really [16:08] like emotional and protective about [16:10] people who are like in deception. [16:12] Oh no, I'm going to get emotional again. [16:14] I ugly cried so bad on the last one. [16:15] It's when I talk about like people who [16:17] are impacted. Um, [16:20] so like growing up I had this sense like [16:22] God would tell me that no matter what [16:23] was done to me. Um, I had to try to be [16:26] good and I had to like forgive those who [16:29] were hurting me. Um, and I knew my mom [16:31] was in this weird stuff. She would [16:32] sometime she was obsessed with [16:34] Halloween. She would become very [16:36] demonized. I would see she would lock [16:38] herself in her room and you would just [16:39] hear voices like animals, multiple [16:41] voices screaming. um she would have [16:43] these um you know there was mental [16:46] health but it was very very demonic and [16:50] um like there was a moment where I [16:52] remember one time being in the kitchen [16:53] with her and I was talking this is kind [16:55] of a fast forward but I remember talking [16:56] to her about um I just saw an eagle [16:59] feather fall. It is falling down [17:01] outside. That is really weird. Um sorry [17:04] that was very distracting. I've just [17:06] never seen a feather randomly fall. Um [17:08] anyway, so she I was in the kitchen with [17:11] her and I was telling her like God again [17:14] it was this God wants you to repent. Um [17:16] and you know he wants you he'll forgive [17:19] you like he just wants everybody to come [17:21] to him. And she all of a sudden started [17:24] quoting scriptures about Lucifer from [17:26] memory. [17:27] Um and she was like well she's like is [17:32] he going to forgive Lucifer and like and [17:35] his demons? She's like sounds like he's [17:37] kind of a sore loser to me. And she [17:38] started like rattling off scriptures and [17:40] like the the kitchen got like so full of [17:42] darkness. And I was trying to persuade [17:44] her like no like we shouldn't be we [17:46] shouldn't be talking to and trying to [17:48] forgive demons. And she was trying to [17:49] convince me that um that God if I [17:53] believed in forgiveness truly then I [17:54] should be happy to like have [17:56] relationship with the demonic and like [17:58] with Satan [18:00] like seriously. And while she was [18:02] talking, um, she all of a sudden [18:05] opened her mouth and it was like her [18:07] mouth had been shut and she sat there [18:10] kind of like almost like she couldn't [18:12] move anymore. And then she like weirdly [18:14] got up and like left and I remember [18:15] knowing in my spirit like, "Oh, the Lord [18:17] won't let her tell me anymore." Um, it [18:19] was this really weird [18:21] weird moment. Um, so move. So I I just I [18:25] guess I just say that to say like these [18:27] people are people get really in bondage. [18:30] Um, and the Lord does want them. Um, but [18:34] I guess one of the one of the main [18:35] deceptions that um, the enemy always [18:38] brings is he really tries to get us to [18:41] like court him. It's about are you going [18:43] to stick just with Jesus or are you [18:45] going to be drawn into the twisting of [18:49] scripture? She literally is using [18:51] scripture, right? Um, and then my [18:54] grandmother, um, my dad came back into [18:56] my life when I was like eight or so, and [18:59] they gave me a children's story Bible [19:00] book. So, I would then be reading the [19:03] story Bible book when like my room was [19:05] full of demons and stuff, and I would [19:06] like be reading it and studying it. Um, [19:10] and then eventually they gave me this a [19:12] few years later cuz I was asking them so [19:13] many questions about God. Um, and then I [19:16] was also telling my father and my [19:17] grandmother, the Baptist deaconess, I [19:20] was telling them like, "Hey, so, um, [19:22] sometimes [19:24] I'll be sitting there in the kitchen [19:25] with my mom and I'll like see flashes of [19:28] her past like and I'll know she's doing [19:31] this because this thing happened to [19:33] her." And they were like, "That sounds [19:35] like Satan, right?" Cuz they're Baptist. [19:36] Um, they're like, "You shouldn't have [19:38] this sounds like you're you're a [19:40] psychic." Um, and you know, I would tell [19:44] them, "Yeah, but I also like there's [19:46] there's like entities, there's like [19:47] things in the house and I don't know [19:49] what to do because it's like it's like [19:51] they're always after me." Um, and then [19:53] my mom's sister came into my life and [19:55] she loved psychic affairs and stuff. So, [19:57] she was always like, "Dusty, stop being [19:58] so closed-minded. Like, Jesus wants you [20:01] to be open to everything. Like, just [20:02] come and anything that doesn't hurt [20:05] people is good. Like, so come to the [20:06] psychic fairs. Like, you need to [20:08] understand your gifts. Everybody in the [20:10] family has gifts like your grandmother [20:11] had a gift. Um you have a very strong [20:14] gift, you know, all this thing. And so [20:16] I'd be trying to get answers from the [20:18] Baptist deaconess and my father who um [20:21] he gave his life back to the Lord. [20:22] That's why he came back into my life. He [20:24] was trying to do like the right thing [20:25] and get a Bible in my hands. Um [20:29] [laughter] [20:30] but my my mother was very difficult to [20:32] mess with. So there was no like getting [20:34] me from her if that makes sense. [20:36] Anyways, yeah. So, I was trying to ask [20:38] them questions and they were telling me, [20:40] "No, like all that stuff you need to ask [20:42] that God removes it. It's either not [20:44] real or it's demonic." And I was like, [20:47] "Well, but like I it's like God told me [20:50] it though." Like it wasn't a demon that [20:52] told me this, but there are demons. And [20:54] they were just like, they would just get [20:55] upset. Especially my granny. She would [20:57] just get like, "Oh dear." Like, "Oh, [20:59] what what to do about this girl? Um, oh [21:01] Lord Jesus, help her." Like like [21:03] [laughter] the devil's getting her. And [21:05] she wasn't entirely wrong, like the [21:08] house was so demonic. Um, but I remember [21:11] taking this Bible and um, I read through [21:14] the whole thing cover to cover like [21:16] multiple times. I was a weird kid. I [21:18] would like cross reference the like the [21:20] actual scriptures to my Bible story [21:22] book. And I think part of that is my my [21:24] grandmother and my father, they were [21:26] like, "The word of God is going to be [21:28] your compass for truth." Like that's if [21:30] you want to know Jesus and you want to [21:31] know how God works, it's the word of [21:33] God. That was that Baptist thing. And I [21:35] was like, "Okay." Um, and you could read [21:37] it and you could feel the spirit. Like I [21:40] could read this in my room and I could [21:42] feel the peace of God and I could feel [21:45] um I could get instruction. Like the [21:48] first thing I ever underlined when they [21:49] gave me this and this is how you know [21:51] it's God was Proverbs where it's like um [21:53] a soft word turns away wrath, right? [21:56] Because I had a sharp tongue. That's the [21:58] first thing that as a kid I underlined [21:59] in my Bible. Like [22:02] it it corrects us, right? Um because [22:06] it's not like you're abused so [22:09] everything you do is right. It's like no [22:11] like the Lord was always disciplining [22:12] me. Forgive. Watch your words even if I [22:16] wasn't in the wrong. Um sorry I ramble. [22:20] So um about the spiritual stuff, I got [22:22] into Corinthians. [22:24] Um and I saw like eagerly pursue [22:27] spiritual gifts. I saw about like [22:29] prophecy and I was like you guys [22:31] [laughter] [22:31] prophecy it's here. Um and they were [22:35] just like no that was then like we're [22:39] concerned that you are seeking power. Um [22:42] this is not the Lord and you might have [22:45] a gift of discerning of spirits. And I [22:46] was like well what should I do with [22:47] that? And they were like pray that it [22:49] stops. And I remember being so Yeah. I [22:52] was like I remember being so frustrated [22:54] because [22:56] it wasn't [22:58] it wasn't like oh you don't believe me [23:03] or like oh you don't think I'm gifted [23:05] and powerful. It wasn't that. It was I [23:08] am I live in torment. [23:11] I go home [23:13] and this house is freaking full of [23:15] demons. Like it's great that I visit [23:17] Christians on weekends, but you go home [23:19] and my mom is demonized and I know she's [23:21] demonized and um I have these things [23:25] happening and I have nobody to tell me [23:29] what to do with it or how to properly [23:33] how how to properly live life as a [23:35] Christian who is aware of the [23:37] supernatural. [23:38] And I've got my aunt who is a awesome, [23:41] beautiful, loving woman who happens to [23:43] be super into the new age and like new [23:45] thought both. [23:47] Um, and she's like offering to bring me [23:49] to the psychic bears and she's saying, [23:51] "Oh, some of those spirits just want [23:52] help. Just talk to them." And I'm like, [23:55] "How do I make the torment stop? Like, [23:57] how do I manage this world?" Um, [24:01] and and I used to say like, "What about [24:04] my mother? Like, how how can she be [24:06] saved? like she has all these demons in [24:09] her and they would kind of be like, [24:11] "Well, some people are going to make it [24:13] and some people aren't." And it was just [24:14] so hopeless. [24:16] Um, [24:18] and like all sorts of really awful [24:20] things [24:22] happened to me as a result of the [24:25] occultism. Like it they talk about ACE [24:28] scores, like how many adverse childhood [24:30] events and type mine was 10 and it was [24:32] like multiple of it. Um, [24:35] like I I was I became so so abused and [24:40] was like tortured [24:42] so [snorts] much that eventually I just [24:45] like kind of snapped. Like I shut off [24:48] and I was like fine, [24:51] I have to explore this occult stuff. [24:53] like I'm going to go with my aunt to the [24:54] psychic fairs um and try to see like [24:59] maybe I can get them to leave me alone [25:02] and maybe they can teach me how to use [25:04] the gift of prophecy. [25:05] [gasps and laughter] [25:06] Maybe they can teach me how to like I I [25:09] used what I what I said to myself was I [25:11] would I will only ever serve Jesus. Like [25:13] I loved Jesus so much and I had such [25:17] like I would go into the woods and he [25:18] would just be with me and I was very [25:20] very devoted to Jesus. So, I I was like, [25:22] I'll go to the psychic fairs. Um, and [25:25] [laughter] my my dad and granny were [25:27] like, well, any spirit that, you know, [25:29] says that Jesus has come in the flesh or [25:31] like that can confess Jesus, um, that [25:33] that's the test, right? They told me the [25:35] testing the spirits thing. So, I was [25:36] like, I'll go and I'll do that. So, I'll [25:38] just go there and God will protect me. [25:40] Um, and then, of course, I got into the [25:43] occult and then I got super demonized by [25:45] the time I was in my teens. [25:47] >> So, how old were you kind of during this [25:50] span of time? [25:52] Um, which that was just like my whole [25:54] life. Um, [25:56] like that was just like my whole life. [25:58] Um, [25:59] >> like when you have this encounter with [26:01] with your granny and she's sharing the [26:03] the gospel and you sense the presence of [26:05] the Lord like [26:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that. [26:08] Yeah, that's important. I was only like [26:10] three, so I always tell people like [26:12] never underestimate the power of like a [26:14] praying grandmother. um just sharing the [26:17] gospel like from the scripture, sharing [26:19] like a basic salvation message. She [26:21] didn't even believe in like the [26:22] supernatural. Well, she believed that um [26:24] the Lord was with us and everything, but [26:26] um [26:28] God reached me and confirmed his [26:31] existence and identity to me at three [26:35] and never left like under those [26:36] circumstances. Um that was three. [26:39] >> Uh Bible story book was like eight. [26:42] uh little Bible, actual Bible was when I [26:45] was like 12, 13. Um so it took a few [26:48] years before they graduated me. They [26:49] were sick of my questions. Um yeah, and [26:53] I was fully fully practicing like new [26:57] age occulty stuff by the time I was 16 [27:00] and became crazy like super demonized um [27:04] before the Lord. Deuteronomy 18 to me. [27:06] >> Yeah. How did you get free after after [27:09] being demonized? led to you actually [27:11] being set free and then that'll maybe [27:14] lead into also kind of how you ended up [27:16] getting connected with more [27:17] charismatically minded Christians ending [27:20] up at Bethl. But I guess just start with [27:22] how did the Lord set you free? [27:24] >> Yeah. Well, freedom tier number one um I [27:29] was about 17. So at that time um I [27:33] became so demonized and also traumatized [27:36] um right I when I was uh I think I was [27:41] 14 when I was 14 the Lord spoke to me [27:44] and he said you have to leave your [27:45] mother's house and never return. He's [27:47] like if you don't leave you will not [27:48] survive. I got a command from the Lord [27:51] and I was like I was like oh no like if [27:54] I never go back I'll never see my baby [27:55] brother or my mother again. Um he was [27:57] like you will not survive. So, [28:01] I um I ended up at my dad's house [28:03] practicing all this occulty stuff and [28:04] just like the trauma wrecked me. I went [28:06] from the top of every class to basically [28:10] dropping out of school pretty much by [28:11] the time I was 17. Um and I had memory [28:14] gaps. Like I would I would show up at [28:17] school and they would be like, "You've [28:18] been gone for 2 months." And I would be [28:20] like, "I've been gone for 2 months." No [28:22] recollection of what had been happening [28:24] while I was like trapped in my room [28:25] demonized and stuff like this. It's like [28:27] the enemy. It's It's no joke. And I [28:30] think people who are people who endure [28:32] severe trauma maybe experience more [28:35] dramatic demonization. [28:38] Um but it doesn't really matter if it's [28:41] dramatic or not. Like the consequences [28:44] are are real. Like there's no it's not [28:46] like I was trying to practice dark [28:48] occult stuff. I was like light and like [28:51] helping people and and the enemy just [28:53] took so much advantage. And I had a best [28:57] friend who I only talked to like once a [28:59] year. Um, she was Greek Orthodox [29:03] and she was so full of light and she was [29:06] so kind and forgiving that even though [29:09] we would see each other at like a a [29:10] theater summer camp [29:12] and I wouldn't tell her anything about [29:15] my life. Um, and she would just like she [29:18] would hang out with me and she would [29:19] laugh. She was like, "You're so honest [29:21] that it offends everybody." She's like, [29:22] "Do you know that telling them the truth [29:24] about that thing was offensive?" She'd [29:26] be like, "I know you mean well, but it's [29:28] really funny, Dusty." Um, and she would [29:30] ask me about my life, and I would just [29:32] refuse to tell her. And the reason was I [29:34] didn't want to like um like take away [29:37] her innocence. I was like, "You don't [29:39] need to know what goes on in my life. [29:41] You don't need to know why I don't talk [29:43] to you like after the summers." Um, and [29:47] I just And she was like, "That's okay. [29:49] Like, you don't have to tell me." She's [29:50] like, "I know we're best friends." She [29:52] had such the love of God. She's like, "I [29:54] just know that like God made us to be [29:56] best friends. So, however long it takes [29:58] you to tell me," she's like, "I'll be [30:00] here." And it was the first it was like [30:03] the first time I'd ever experienced um [30:06] [snorts] like somebody really caring, [30:08] like actual friendship. [30:10] Like, oh my gosh, God bless her. We're [30:12] still friends. She lives back in [30:14] Hamilton, but um she's just the best. [30:16] She's so so loving and accepting. Um, [30:21] and after one of these long gaps, I went [30:24] to visit her and actually it was she [30:25] tried to schedule a meeting with me [30:27] once. My dad was worried because at this [30:28] point I was like agorophobic. I wasn't [30:30] leaving my room. I wouldn't leave my [30:32] room. Um, [30:34] well I I'd experienced some like SA [30:36] stuff and so I also like my bedroom door [30:39] always had to be locked. Um, I just like [30:41] lived in terror and I would come out at [30:44] night like a little mouse and I would [30:46] like I would like grab food from the [30:47] fridge and like not want to see anybody [30:49] and then I would just hide in my room um [30:52] and just be like depressed and in [30:53] torment. So she would call and I would [30:56] be like I can't come see you. And when [31:00] she would call I would feel um like I [31:04] had to push something away to come [31:07] forward to talk to her. I and I just [31:09] did. I just knew that I had to push it [31:11] away, but I didn't know what it was. Um, [31:13] and so I remember her being like, "Okay, [31:15] in two weeks we're going to meet at a [31:16] coffee shop." And I was like, "Okay, I [31:19] think she's like, "Is two weeks enough [31:20] time for you to push it away?" And I was [31:23] like, "Two weeks should be fine." Um, [31:25] and by the way, I was still reading my [31:27] Bible every single night. [31:30] Every single night. It just wasn't I was [31:32] like learning about God, but it wasn't [31:35] it wasn't like reaching me for some [31:37] reason. for some reason [laughter] [31:40] like maybe the occult disobedience and [31:42] then you know I go to meet her um well [31:45] two weeks later I I actually stood her [31:47] up and she called and she was like you [31:49] said 2 weeks and I felt so guilty [31:52] because of how good she is that I was [31:54] like okay I'll just come even though so [31:56] I was still not entirely present and I [32:01] went to see her and she looked at me and [32:04] I will never forget like the horror on [32:06] her face like this person who had always [32:08] been just like love and acceptance [32:09] towards me looked scared and she was [32:12] like, "Dusty, why are your eyes black?" [32:16] And I was like, I remember being like, [32:18] "What?" But I couldn't like talk to her [32:20] and my face was doing this like so I [32:21] would look at her and she everything [32:23] looked filmed like with black and she [32:26] had this like little glow around her and [32:29] like like something was like pushing my [32:31] face away and she was like, "Duster, [32:33] your eyes are black. Why are your eyes [32:36] black?" She was like super scared and I [32:38] was like this weird voice came out of me [32:41] like I couldn't control my voice or my [32:42] head and I remember it like moving my me [32:46] like this. So I was looking like up [32:47] through my hair and I was like I don't [32:49] know. I was like it takes time to push [32:51] it away and like my voice did this weird [32:53] garble when I was like it takes time to [32:55] push it away. And she was like takes [32:57] time to push one away. Like what the [32:58] hell is going on? Um, she was like, [33:01] "Duster, this is super weird." And I [33:04] felt super like guilty and ashamed. Um, [33:08] cuz I never want remember I was like I [33:10] was so protective of her like not [33:11] wanting her to know about my life or [33:13] anything. And I was like, "Maybe we [33:15] should meet another time." She's like, [33:16] "Yeah, this is not going to work. Her [33:17] [laughter] eyes are like she's like [33:19] sitting there [33:22] in person." Um, and to her credit, she [33:26] she used to joke with me kind of about [33:28] the psychic stuff. She's like, "Let's [33:29] try telepathy." But it was all very [33:31] innocent. Like, so she um and like the [33:34] Greek Orthodox like they have a [33:35] supernatural worldview. So, it didn't I [33:40] think she's she knew she was seeing [33:41] something demonic. You know what I mean? [33:43] She didn't struggle. So, I went home [33:46] in like shame and horror and um grabbed [33:51] my Bible and I was like, well, I checked [33:53] the mirror to see if my eyes were black. [33:54] They weren't, thank God. Um, and I was [33:57] just like, am I doing something wrong, [33:58] Jesus? Like I feel like I'm doing [34:00] something wrong. Um, and like it was the [34:04] first time as an adult I felt the [34:08] presence of God. Like it was like fire [34:11] and love. I was like scared but also [34:13] felt loved. Um, and it was so strong and [34:16] so thick. And I fell to my knees on my [34:20] bedroom floor and like grabbed my Bible [34:22] and I was like, "What am I doing wrong?" [34:24] And I just like like just opened it and [34:26] it went to Deuteronomy 18. Um that being [34:30] like the classic there shall not be [34:32] found any among you who practice like [34:33] witchcraft, sorcery, divination, [34:35] necromancy, causing your son or daughter [34:37] to pass through the fire. Anyone who [34:38] does these things is abomination to me [34:40] because of these things. I drove out the [34:42] nations who are before you. And I read [34:44] it and it went like [snorts] like fire [34:47] like and I fell in repentance. I was [34:50] sobbing. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so [34:51] sorry. I've betrayed you. I've like [34:54] broken your heart. You've been with me [34:55] since I was 3 years old. And then I was [34:57] I remember like just shaking and feeling [34:59] like I was like burning and on fire. And [35:00] I remember feeling this like terror of [35:03] God, which actually might have been [35:04] partly the demons being terrorized. And [35:08] I was just like in this crazy encounter [35:10] sobbing and like shaking and feeling [35:12] fire and light on the floor and [35:14] repenting like apologizing over and over [35:17] and over. Um, and I don't know how long [35:19] that lasted, but when it stopped, [35:22] everything was like quiet, [35:26] like for the first time in so long. And [35:29] there was this peace in my room and my [35:32] thoughts, yeah, my thoughts were still, [35:34] and I didn't feel any intense emotion of [35:37] really any kind. Such a relief. Um, and [35:42] but I remember I looked up [35:45] um, no this is before before the piece [35:47] came [35:49] and I don't know if it was before or [35:50] after so I won't even say but some [35:52] somewhere in that um, I looked up and [35:54] there was this like cat figurine on my [35:56] TV and it like started shaking and it [35:58] flew across the room and it slammed [36:00] [laughter] against the wall and then [36:02] fell onto my bed. And I remember looking [36:05] I think though the piece had already [36:06] come by then and I was like I think I [36:08] said out loud I was like great there's [36:09] demons here and the demons are angry. I [36:12] was like so what do you want me to do? [36:14] Um and the voice was like throw out [36:16] everything every occult artifact every [36:18] book. Um [36:21] and that was it man. That was the start. [36:23] And the first thing was throwing out the [36:24] occult stuff but um that was the start. [36:29] >> Wow. So, you have this crazy deliverance [36:33] where you just come into the Lord, [36:34] reading the scriptures, the Holy Spirit [36:36] just sovereignly delivers you, grants [36:39] you repentance by his grace. [36:41] >> Um, what a what a you know, thank God. [36:46] Thank God. [36:47] >> Um, [36:49] so you go from there and somehow end up [36:53] at Bethl. What happened? [36:56] >> This one I can I can make short. I [36:58] traveled around for a bit and there was [36:59] like I had to get you know had to do [37:01] some work to try to get healing and God [37:02] led me to get some understanding about [37:04] psychology and like what was going on in [37:05] my family. I understood the occult side. [37:07] I didn't understand the mental health [37:09] side you know worked on like repentance [37:11] and trying to make sure that um I I knew [37:14] it was and he told me it was very [37:16] important to let him shape my character [37:18] so that I didn't um repeat any toxic [37:22] patterns in my family. So that was a few [37:23] years. And I was really scared of [37:25] Christians because of my granny telling [37:27] me that everything that happened to me [37:29] was the devil. Um, and I don't say that [37:31] to dishonor her. I think she's like a [37:34] like such a great woman of God. She [37:35] evangelized. She did everything. But, [37:38] um, I was maybe [37:40] 21 when I first went to church. Um, so [37:44] it took a few years. And I went because [37:46] my aunt tricked me and on my dad's side. [37:48] She was like, "There's this girl who [37:50] might need your help teaching her about [37:52] Jesus." cuz I was always evangelizing [37:54] [laughter] and I was like fine, I'll go [37:56] to this church to meet this girl who's [37:58] like an alcoholic and my [laughter] [38:00] but my aunt was tricking me to going to [38:02] church. Um and the Holy Spirit was in [38:04] this church. It was a spiritfilled [38:05] church. Um and so I because I felt the [38:08] Holy Spirit there, I just like baldled [38:09] my eyes out in the back row. Um and so I [38:13] started going to that church. It turned [38:15] out to be um one of these charismatic [38:17] high control churches unfortunately. [38:19] Um, so eventually like I had to leave [38:21] there and I think because it was a [38:23] charismatic high control church, like it [38:25] was one of these ones with cell lines. [38:26] You all have to report on each other. [38:28] The information goes to your line pastor [38:30] that goes up the cell line up to the [38:32] head pastor and like it had a reputation [38:34] for breaking up couples. Um, they at one [38:37] point told me like I couldn't take a job [38:38] to feed myself because it would take me [38:40] away from Wednesday night services. Like [38:43] and that's when I um was introduced to [38:45] Dreaming with God by Bill Johnson. And I [38:48] remember um reading it and I was like, [38:52] there are Christians who are creative [38:54] and who understand the spiritual and [38:56] like aren't controlling and [laughter] [38:58] awful. Um oh my gosh. And they're all [39:00] like pursuing God together and like [39:02] seeing people saved and seeing them set [39:04] free and heal. I'm like there's my [39:06] people. Like I found my people. And so I [39:08] decided that I was called to the Lord to [39:10] go to Bethl. Um and I applied not too [39:14] long after and saved up and got my butt [39:15] down there. So that's how that happened. [39:19] Um, and I was thinking I'm pursuing the [39:22] Lord with again it's that thing of like [39:24] Christians who understand how to [39:26] navigate this this thing. Right. Right. [39:28] Like be Christian. Yeah. And also know [39:31] Yeah. That didn't go too well. [39:33] [laughter] [39:35] >> Yeah. I I did want I did want to give [39:37] like some context for people. I [39:38] obviously it's no secret that everyone [39:43] uh you know in this uh episode has [39:46] plenty of criticisms from for Bethl. [39:48] We'll we'll come there. But I do want to [39:50] point out um I had to I had to um not [39:55] educate but I had to do a lot of work [39:58] with certain people during the IHOP KC [40:01] situation. Um my wife was a three-year [40:03] uh IHOPU student. I was very very [40:06] heavily involved and there's always um [40:09] these situations after exposures happen [40:11] where people like what on earth would [40:13] ever lead you someone to go to that [40:16] crazy place and I think it is helpful [40:18] not to justify the bad behaviors from [40:21] these organizations or minimize their [40:23] faults but to say and and John Mark and [40:26] I were talking about this um you [40:28] mentioned your high control environment [40:31] um John Mark and I are both very [40:32] familiar intimately familiar with Bethl [40:34] And a lot of people don't understand [40:36] Bethl is not a highly controlling [40:39] environment. Like obviously you have you [40:41] have you know isolated people here and [40:43] there who have issues just like you do [40:44] everywhere. But that is part of the draw [40:47] that there is very much an attitude at [40:49] Bethl of hey like you know you can [40:53] challenge what we think. You can you can [40:55] think your own thoughts. You can believe [40:57] stuff that's different from us. And if [40:59] anything, right, Beth was too permissive [41:00] of like too many [41:02] >> that's kind of criticism sides, man. [41:05] >> Sides, [41:06] >> but but maybe like just it doesn't even [41:08] have to be long, but maybe speak a [41:10] little bit to like not that Bethl is [41:13] this bastion of health and the most [41:15] beautiful organization ever, but like [41:17] coming out of that high control [41:18] environment, what about the community at [41:21] Bethl maybe was lifegiving to you when [41:24] you first went? [41:25] >> That is such an easy ask. Um, like the [41:28] reason I talk about this stuff is [41:29] actually because I love Bethl and like I [41:31] love my fellow alumni and like um [41:35] yeah, so it is it was like so wholesome [41:41] like there was oh I hate it when I get [41:44] emotional. There was like not a drop of [41:46] cynicism or skepticism in that place. So [41:50] you could go there to just it was like [41:51] this oasis [41:53] where everybody is there for the same [41:55] thing. Everybody actually loves Jesus. [41:58] There's you don't go there. And people [42:00] are like, "Yeah, screw the Bible." It is [42:02] not like that. Like people, they believe [42:05] in the word of God, but a lot of them, [42:06] like you said, they're coming from [42:07] these, some of them grew up and they're [42:09] like pastor's kids or missionary kids, [42:11] and they're so burnt out. Um, and [42:13] they've seen maybe the word of God used [42:15] like and weaponized and read without the [42:17] spirit, maybe um read without love. And [42:20] everybody is just like, "Oh my gosh, [42:22] like let's pray. let's do what matters [42:25] like loving Jesus and loving Jesus is [42:27] interpreted as like being in worship um [42:30] which is not like wrong [laughter] [42:33] um so being in worship and praying [42:36] together and praying for the sick um and [42:40] and a lot of it too like I think there [42:42] there was a very strong intention to see [42:44] people healed like I think there was a [42:45] lot of compassion um giving leadership [42:48] the benefit of the doubt because some of [42:49] the some of senior leadership's behavior [42:51] recently has made me wonder like like [42:53] are you off track or were you kind of [42:55] always conning us? Like I actually am [42:57] not entirely sure with a couple of them [42:59] but it seemed like there was a lot of [43:00] compassion for people's brokenness. Um [43:03] and like you know so you get a lot of [43:04] that like father's heart message and [43:06] like the grace of God and it it didn't [43:09] ever seem to me like it was because they [43:11] were trying to make you think that like [43:12] everything is permissible and like you [43:15] should practice witchcraft and also sin [43:18] sexually. Like it's it is not that [43:21] [laughter] kind of environment. It was [43:23] just um hey, you're okay. Like you can [43:27] shut off that voice in your head that's [43:28] always angry at you. Um [43:31] but the irony is that another kind of [43:36] bondage took place because it wasn't [43:39] balanced. Um, and so the other bondage [43:41] that was there instead is something that [43:44] actually impacted me even in first year [43:46] because of my how I'm wired. And that [43:48] was like you really couldn't talk about [43:51] the judgment side of God very much or [43:53] the wrath of God. Um, and like my [43:58] relationship with the Lord was always [44:00] like I call him the Lord and it's um [44:04] it's like this respectful loving [44:06] reverence that's very precious to me and [44:08] it was very much like well you're not [44:11] calling him Aba Daddy because you have [44:12] father issues. Right? So it's that thing [44:15] of like we're trying to bring healing [44:17] but they're trying to bring healing to [44:18] the people that that's true for but it's [44:20] like you've got a hammer everything [44:21] looks like a nail. And so I ended up [44:25] Like honestly, it was not intentional. I [44:28] think we overuse the word abuse. [44:29] Especially like my background. I'm like [44:31] some stuff that people say is abuse is [44:32] not abuse. But they definitely were like [44:35] saying something to me that was untrue [44:36] and that made me uncomfortable when they [44:38] were like call them aba daddy [laughter] [44:41] cuz l cuz lord and father like lord [44:44] means that you have um like a fear of [44:46] god and that you know then they could [44:48] point to my upbringing to justify to [44:50] prove themselves out. And I was like, [44:53] "Yeah, but just because I'm super abused [44:55] um in my background and like this [44:58] doesn't actually mean that there's [45:00] something wrong with calling him Lord." [45:02] Um and then like the wrath and judgment [45:04] of God. Listen, you grow up and your [45:07] house is full of flipping demons and [45:09] people like abusing you and tormenting [45:11] you and actively telling you to hate [45:13] Christians. You need to know that God is [45:16] fierce. Like I am not in this to serve a [45:20] fluffy bunny. like who who can't protect [45:23] me and who isn't interested in [45:25] exercising judgment and justice in the [45:27] earth. Um that's not a complete picture [45:29] of God. And so so by third year [45:36] there are times where it starts to and I [45:38] could I didn't articulate it this way at [45:39] the time and this is like part of the [45:41] reconstruction and processing it but [45:43] it's almost like everybody came there [45:46] for the same thing. [45:48] Um [45:50] but like are do we have the same idea of [45:53] who God is by the end of it? Do you know [45:56] what I mean? Like um and then the other [45:59] part of it of course is the the emphasis [46:01] and it's the same error. It's that um we [46:04] want to bring healing to Christians who [46:06] have been abused by legalism. I don't [46:08] like the word religion used negatively [46:11] because I feel like that's a trap. Um [46:14] it's really legalism and control they've [46:16] been hurt by. Bible talks about good [46:18] religion. Um, [46:21] and so Bethl wants to fix that. And so [46:23] they're like, don't feel like you're [46:24] begging God, look, speak to this [46:26] mountain and it shall be moved. Um, you [46:29] know, go do the things like you have [46:31] agency. You are empowered. You don't [46:34] have to. Every light is green unless the [46:36] Lord yells that it's red, you know. Um, [46:39] and I think that's well intended. But I [46:43] also think the enemy had a plan for [46:46] Bethl. [46:47] Um, and I don't know if some of the [46:48] leaders were conscious of it because I [46:51] think that's possible. Um, or if it was [46:54] unconscious and it was more just like [46:56] dark spiritual in influences that are [46:59] common in the West Coast regions like [47:01] Mount Shasta is nearby. It's like an [47:02] occult hub. These, sorry guys, I sound [47:05] woo woo, but like this stuff is real. So [47:08] um and I think the plan of the enemy was [47:11] to take that and begin to move the [47:14] needle so that people were actually [47:17] embracing things like um you know [47:19] quantum mysticism and the law of [47:21] attraction and these things where [47:23] actually you are now you are now [47:26] claiming almost like godship and agency [47:30] for yourself and I was deceived by this [47:33] while kind of being aware of it but [47:35] still I own this like I had to repent. [47:37] where it's like, okay, I'll stop feeling [47:39] like an orphan and I will just declare [47:42] all the things. And it it took me a [47:45] while. It took me until after Bethl when [47:47] I actually read Physics of Heaven. And I [47:50] saw it so blatant that it was like the [47:53] light bulb went on [47:55] um that actually the enemy has a plan [47:58] for Bethl and Bethl needs to be warned. [48:01] Um, and I wrote to Chris Valatin and [48:04] that was 2019 and I I had graduated by [48:07] then. Um, but like I would live stream [48:10] Bethl daily and like that I my private [48:13] worship time I'd be streaming the [48:14] worship like I'd always felt like a [48:16] Bethl person. Um, so I emailed Chris and [48:19] I said, "Hey, uh, I've been talking to [48:22] some people in the alumni group at that [48:24] time and I said about like physics of [48:27] heaven and like different practices." [48:29] And I said, "You need to know this book [48:33] is teaching people the occult." And I [48:35] was so respectful. I was like, "Papa [48:37] Chris, [laughter] that was the culture. [48:39] Papa Chris, I just love and respect you [48:41] and honor you so much, but I need to [48:43] give you this warning. Um, your job as a [48:45] prophet. I know you will care because [48:46] you are a prophet and prophets care [48:48] about like the safety and spiritual [48:49] purity of the people." I was so like, [48:52] and I really believed. I was so like [48:54] hyper honoring [48:56] [laughter] and I really love Chris. Like [48:58] I think his sense of humor is hilarious. [48:59] Like I've always just really loved [49:01] Chris. Um and I was like there's people [49:04] in the group who are defending Christian [49:06] card reading and like some of our stuff [49:08] like prophetic art has turned into power [49:10] objects and we don't realize it. And I [49:12] was like this thing in physics of heaven [49:13] is quantum mysticism. Like that is [49:15] actually witchcraft. I was like this is [49:18] really important. I'm like I can I sent [49:20] screenshots. I'm like look the people [49:22] are I'm like I know people who have [49:23] gotten deceived by demons, gone into [49:25] Christian witchcraft. um changed their [49:28] sexuality um and like you know or just [49:31] left the Lord altogether. I'm like I'm [49:33] seeing effects now that I've been away [49:35] for a few years and I'm like I know that [49:36] this is demons like I know how this [49:38] stuff I'm like I just know and you can [49:40] see it in this book like this needs to [49:41] be corrected. Um [49:45] so that's what [laughter] I said to [49:46] Chris and he actually replied and he was [49:49] like hey thank you like it's like you [49:51] know it's cool that you care kind of [49:52] thing. Um, and he was like, "Yeah, [49:54] there's some not great ideas in that [49:56] book, but I only like endorsed it cuz [49:57] she's a friend." And I was like, "Ninja, [50:01] what?" [laughter] [50:04] This is the prophet's response. And so I [50:07] replied again. I was like, "Yes, Papa [50:09] Chris, but [laughter] [50:12] um I was like, "No, but seriously, [50:14] people are actually being deceived. Like [50:18] they're actually turning demons. like [50:19] this could actually make people leave [50:21] the Lord and it can actually hurt their [50:23] lives. Like this this has to be [50:25] corrected from the pulpit because people [50:26] think this is okay. Like I He's like, [50:28] "Yeah, but you know, not every snake is [50:32] a snake is a bad snake because of you [50:34] know, Nahushin, the the snake on the [50:36] pole." And I was like, "That's not what [50:38] that means." [50:39] >> [laughter and gasps] [50:39] >> I was like, [50:42] >> "So, you you may know this already, but [50:45] Elijah Stevens was behind the scenes [50:47] imploring them at the same time, I [50:50] imagine." [50:50] >> No, I actually found that out. Um, [50:54] yeah, we ended up, we're actually really [50:56] good friends, so I interned with him in [50:57] third year. [50:58] >> Um, so he's like, I consider him my very [51:01] annoying older brother. [51:02] >> Um, and yeah, so we ended up in talks [51:04] about that. I don't I didn't know that [51:06] he was imploring them at that time. Um [51:10] if I'd known I might not have emailed [51:11] Chris, but he knew like later we did [51:14] know that each other were doing that. [51:15] Um, [51:16] >> and and then uh for the those who are [51:19] listening, the one of the things that's [51:21] important, this was drawn out in Mike [51:23] Winger's video that and I believe it's [51:26] in the uh preface to the book if I'm not [51:30] mistaken that, you know, Judy Franklin [51:33] goes to who is uh Bill's assistant, Bill [51:36] Johnson's assistant, who wrote the book [51:39] physics of heaven, which you know, [51:41] teaches quantum mysticism, teaches uh [51:44] teaches all of these things basically [51:46] that Jesus performed his miracles, spoke [51:48] silence to the storm and walked on water [51:50] because he had a deep understanding of [51:52] quantum mechanics and um with a certain [51:56] amount of intention. [51:58] Someone can begin to manipulate the [52:00] quantum realm and uh and manipulate [52:03] reality. It completely contradicts [52:05] Bill's sort of theory of Jesus's Jesus's [52:09] miracles. However, he wrote the forward [52:11] to the book and then told Judy Franklin [52:13] who said [52:15] in the book in black and white I went [52:17] into the new age like Sedona you know [52:20] Arizona and all these other places went [52:22] to new age teachers extracted some of [52:25] the principles that they use and because [52:27] they work now uh we because they work [52:31] because all truth is God's truth we will [52:35] adopt this and say that well you know [52:37] what this was always Christian to begin [52:40] with. And so these are the principles by [52:43] which we can perform even greater [52:45] miracles. That's the whole premise of [52:47] the book. Anyway, back to you, Dusty. [52:50] >> Yeah. No. Well, even saying all truth is [52:53] God's truth in that context is deceptive [52:55] and maybe not intentionally, but you are [52:58] possibly deceived and you are [53:00] propagating a deception because um I I [53:03] would say it so I'm a very very big [53:05] advocate for understanding and accepting [53:07] reality especially like if you've been [53:09] seriously abused. Step one, become very [53:12] good friends with reality. If it's true [53:14] and real, if it's real, accept it, [53:18] right? Um, that's step one. But just [53:21] because there is a spiritual reality [53:23] doesn't mean it is permissible, [53:25] right? There's a difference between, oh, [53:27] there's things in the new age that work [53:29] and there's things in the occult that [53:30] work and the things in the occult and [53:33] new age are permissible. Like, so the [53:36] the belief is that because we are in [53:39] Christ, the spirit realm is now also our [53:41] domain. And I actually believe that um [53:44] that's kind of like a gateway to this [53:46] like whole gnostic thing because God [53:49] created us. Our domain is to be human. [53:52] Like even at the end, the Bible's not [53:54] saying we're going to be disembodied [53:56] spirits. Like we don't become angels. [53:58] Like it says, you know, there's a [53:59] different kind of celestial body, but [54:00] it's still like it's still portrayed as [54:02] a physical resurrection to the point [54:04] that the early church was like burying [54:05] themselves, never cremating, and like [54:07] like lined up in a certain direction [54:10] because the belief was so strong. We're [54:12] physical beings, and that's good. Um, [54:14] and we also are spirit, but we're not [54:18] actually called to operate [54:23] as like pure spirit beings or to [54:25] trespass into the like that's not what [54:27] Jesus died for at all. We're something [54:30] different. We're something that is like [54:31] submitted to the Holy Spirit and he [54:34] gives us these gifts. And I think part [54:36] of the beauty of humanity is we're these [54:38] these earthly like physical beings who [54:41] get to enjoy things like, you know, [54:43] lovely food and like romantic [54:45] relationships and um and worshiping [54:48] together and there's all this beauty. Um [54:51] but when it and you know, we're we're [54:53] connected to God and God even incarnated [54:55] as one of us because of how much he [54:57] loves us and then died for us. But at [55:00] the same time, we don't we don't [55:04] actually um walk the second heaven. Like [55:07] we're we're here but connected to it. [55:09] You know, we're this kind of like uh [55:11] like almost a hybrid creature, but one [55:13] that God created to be fully human. Um [55:17] and I really feel like the enemy wants [55:19] us to try to like leave our domain the [55:21] same way the fallen watchers left their [55:23] domain. Um and God doesn't like that. [55:26] Like he likes it. It honors God when we [55:30] celebrate and are grateful for what he's [55:33] actually made us and he's made us human. [55:36] Um, right. [55:36] >> And so [55:37] >> there's the [55:38] >> Yeah, [55:38] >> sorry I'm cutting it on you. The [55:41] >> uh it is it is eerily reminiscent of the [55:46] serpent speaking to Eve. [55:49] >> God knows that if you eat of this tree [55:52] of knowledge, you will become like him. [55:55] You're not made in his image and you [55:57] need to be something else. And if you [56:00] will partake of this thing which is [56:02] forbidden for you. It's knowledge. All [56:05] truth is God's truth. Um this is this is [56:08] knowledge. You're knowing good from [56:09] evil. That sounds like a good thing but [56:12] God has forbidden it. [56:14] >> But if you come and partake of this [56:15] knowledge, suddenly you will become like [56:17] him. And God is is withholding this from [56:21] you. Um, it is a temptation to be more [56:24] than what God has made you to be. Um, I [56:27] think that's what you were pointing at, [56:28] Dusty. And one of the things that I [56:30] think I forgot to close the loop on this [56:32] earlier, [56:33] >> um, when Judy Franklin went to Bill with [56:36] concerns that maybe she would get [56:37] deceived, Bill's response according to [56:40] Judy Franklin is, I think you have too [56:43] uh, small of a God and too big of a [56:46] devil. meaning you are you are [56:50] overestimating your ability to be [56:52] deceived and that's simply not [56:55] scriptural. We are told to be vigilant. [56:58] >> We are told to keep watch like the our [57:01] enemy the devil roams around like a [57:04] roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. [57:07] That's in the New Testament for a reason [57:09] cuz it's a it is a warning to Christians [57:11] to be aware to keep watch. And um but I [57:16] think that that goes Dusty to the to the [57:19] error that you were seeing at Bethl, the [57:21] over permissiveness [57:23] and maybe um just being completely [57:27] unaware that the devil is good at lying [57:32] and we should we should keep watch. And [57:35] um it was the the opposite error of the [57:38] over hyper control. [57:40] >> Yeah, exactly. I would say um giving the [57:44] benefit of the doubt and assuming that [57:46] none of senior leadership are actually [57:49] a cult practitioners with a with an [57:51] agenda. Okay. So I like reserve that as [57:53] like a lesser possibility. But assuming [57:56] everybody is Christian, I would say um I [58:00] would say the leaders have been [58:01] irresponsible, [58:03] right? And have failed to um this is [58:05] another thing I said to Chris. I was [58:06] like all these exposure documentaries [58:08] from the cessationists. I would think [58:10] back to my grandmother, too. I was like, [58:12] I think this is the Lord warning us [58:13] prophetically. Like, I think they're [58:15] actually a prophetic voice, and we're [58:16] supposed to listen. Maybe not to [58:18] everything. I wrote that to him. I was [58:20] like, we we have to stop complaining [58:22] about the cessationist, the cessationist [58:24] attacking us. Like, I think it's the [58:25] Lord. I think there's something wrong. [58:27] So, the people come there and we're just [58:28] really naive and really trusting. And [58:31] then the leaders are really [58:32] irresponsible. [58:33] >> Yeah. [58:34] >> Like, that's best case scenario. So it's [58:36] like naivity and then irresponsibility, [58:39] >> right? [58:40] >> Yeah. [58:40] >> And I think you know that it's the [58:42] famous Bill quote, right? Most [58:45] Christians have more faith in the [58:47] devil's ability to deceive them than the [58:49] Holy Spirit's ability to keep them in [58:50] truth. Um now that could be true of some [58:54] people, right? Um the the issue I think [58:56] that pastors sometimes have, and this is [58:58] particularly at Bethl, that's not the [59:00] problem that Bethl people have. So, as a [59:02] pastor, I don't get in front of like for [59:04] example, I'm not going to get deep into [59:05] politics, but like the county that I [59:08] pastor in is the most deep red uh [59:12] Republican county in the entire United [59:14] States, over 100,000 people. So, as a [59:16] pastor, it's actually irresponsible of [59:18] me to get up and rebuke the idols of the [59:22] other side every week. [laughter] [59:24] >> I'm like, I have to know my people. So [59:26] it's like you said it's so irresponsible [59:30] for Bill to get up and say and so there [59:32] have been people who have done videos [59:33] right and as you mentioned Dusty one of [59:35] the biggest weaknesses of the whole [59:37] hyper charismatic stream is if someone [59:39] has the wrong tone or the wrong motive [59:41] or whatever we can disregard every [59:44] single thing they've said none of it's [59:45] true we we don't have to critically [59:48] analyze it and be like you know what [59:50] maybe Justin Peters you know has a point [59:52] on this thing even if he's wrong on this [59:54] other thing And I think all of that [59:56] combines to like there have been videos [59:59] where people have demonstrated that [60:01] basically every time Bill Johnson says [60:03] the word discernment, he's mocking [60:06] people. [60:08] >> So he there is almost no messages from [60:10] Bill Johnson using the word discernment [60:12] in a positive sense. And so what that [60:15] creates is the idea that being aware of [60:19] dark spiritual forces, false teaching, [60:21] heresy, whatever, is basically just you [60:24] kind of [60:25] being uh killing the life of the party, [60:29] so to speak, is kind of what you're [60:30] doing. And I just wanted to like I I I [60:33] told John Mark this, Dustin, I think I [60:35] don't know what this will bring up for [60:36] you. Um I feel like I saw one time where [60:42] Bill Johnson was a true shepherd and [60:45] father. Um and it was I watched it [60:48] happen live. I was watching live. This [60:50] is a long time ago. But when Jason [60:52] Westerfield started getting into the new [60:55] age and the occult, [60:56] >> I saw Bill Johnson stand up and openly [60:59] rebuke him and talk about people being [61:02] demonized just by being around him. And [61:04] I just told y'all Mark, it that it makes [61:08] me so sad because if that mentality and [61:11] that level of shephering and care and [61:13] intentionality would have been carried [61:14] over, um Sean the Shawn Bull situation [61:18] wouldn't have happened, right? Like like [61:20] obviously there's going to be bad things [61:21] that happen in any church in any [61:22] organization, but the thing about Bethl [61:25] that's hard to say, right? Is that many [61:27] of these situations are absolutely their [61:30] fault, right? Like you can't spin it and [61:33] say, "Oh, this just happens. We're a big [61:34] tent and there's always going to be [61:36] people it's like, "No, you enabled it. [61:37] You went back on TBN and said Sean's the [61:39] greatest thing since sliced bread." You [61:41] know, we can go to all these stories. [61:43] And so getting into all of that, maybe [61:45] maybe that's a good pivot to just say [61:47] like as [61:49] as this passion translation stuff [61:51] started coming out because I want people [61:54] to see how connected this is and this is [61:55] what your your video is so brilliant at [61:57] doing this of your upbringing, your [61:59] testimony, the occult, Brian Simmons, [62:02] his cabala like and so just I know [62:05] that's a very scattered question but [62:07] maybe just tie the dots together for [62:09] people about how all of this connects. [62:11] >> Yeah, for sure. Um, so the Passion [62:14] translation, I feel like this now starts [62:15] to get at the root of what the enemy's [62:18] plan for Bethl is. Like, and I really [62:20] want to be clear. I am on the camp of [62:22] God has a plan for Bethl. He gives [62:24] letters to the churches and warnings to [62:26] the churches because these are people he [62:28] loves. Um, like John 6:39, I think like [62:31] the father's will is that Jesus would [62:33] lose nothing of what has been given to [62:34] him, right? So, I just I feel like we [62:37] need to fight for them a little. So the [62:39] passion translation gets at the root of [62:41] what the enemy's plan for Bethl is, [62:43] which is to actually replace God [62:47] [laughter] with a different God. The [62:49] people are now so spiritually open and [62:51] naive and trusting and are so accustomed [62:54] to honoring their leaders who have grown [62:55] irresponsible and have put down their [62:58] shepherd's staff that the enemy can now [63:00] come in with like the killer move, which [63:02] is now you have your own Bible that all [63:05] these other denominations who persecute [63:07] you reject. But this is this is actually [63:11] even more the truth than the other [63:13] translations. Um, and little do they [63:16] know because they have not been taught [63:17] to discern and they don't have holy fear [63:20] and like wise fear. Little do they know [63:22] that it has been systematically like [63:25] whether by Brian Simmons consciousness [63:27] or just demonic influence. He's the one [63:30] who said an angel came to him and not [63:32] me. Um, it has been systematically [63:35] changed to change the character and [63:37] nature of God. If you read about Dusty, [63:40] and Dusty is a Pakistanian woman with [63:45] two dogs and a horse, [63:48] um, that's not me. Like, I don't care [63:50] how often you say it's Dusty. I'm [63:52] reading about Dusty. I love Dusty. [63:53] That's not me. If you take the [63:55] scriptures and you replace the truth and [63:58] the the whole color and texture of the [64:00] narrative and you change God's nature [64:03] from Old Testament to new and you change [64:06] what is required of us and you what he [64:08] requires of us which tells you a lot [64:09] about who he is and you change what [64:12] we're expected to do and what is [64:14] expected to come, you are no longer [64:17] reading a sacred text that tells you [64:19] about God, the Christian God who we [64:21] serve. That is crazy dangerous. That is [64:25] no different than me as a little kid [64:27] trying to tell psychics about Jesus [64:30] while receiving from them. And like [64:32] learn I'm like, "Oh, you know, God's not [64:34] going to let me be hurt or deceived. So [64:36] everything that sounds true and feels [64:38] right to me and that works is totally [64:40] God." And I got super demonized. Like I [64:42] was Christian. I was young, but I was [64:44] Christian. Um, this is it's like that [64:49] only way more sinister because you're [64:50] doing it to an entire movement and [64:54] they're they're embracing this thing. [64:56] And I I don't want to scare people like [64:58] I'm not saying if you've read and [65:00] meditated on the Passion translation, [65:02] you are not in Christ and you have a [65:05] demon. I'm so not saying that. I'm [65:07] saying this is a fascinating, alluring [65:12] spiritually um text that um is not [65:18] actually your Bible anymore. Like it's [65:20] just not. And you don't know the seeds [65:22] that have been sewn in there, but the [65:24] enemy does. And people like you guys who [65:26] start to like dissect it and listen to [65:27] what Brian Simmons says, teaching from [65:29] the Cabala, which is an occultic text. [65:31] Um the enemy knows and people who are [65:34] trained to discern know. Um, so I just [65:37] that's why I'm just seriously like [65:39] begging begging them and I know they [65:41] actually did take it down. Did you guys [65:43] see they took it they took it down? They [65:45] put out a statement that um it the [65:47] Passion translation is being [65:48] investigated. So, you know, pending [65:50] further notice they won't sell it. [65:52] >> But it's not good enough. [65:53] >> They need to really come against it. [65:56] There's there's some concern about what [65:58] who is doing that review because if our [66:01] suspicions [66:03] are correct, I think that the the [66:06] skilled organizations that they mention [66:07] in that uh thing is probably [66:11] broadreet or paid for by Broad Street. [66:14] >> Right. Right. And and we've been [66:15] pointing out recently um [66:17] >> they've they've done this like six times [66:20] already. Broad Street has. So in 20 so [66:22] there was concerns about the passion [66:24] transition from the very beginning right [66:25] you had people like Holly Pivik you had [66:28] um Andrew Wilson who is a charismatic [66:30] who shredded TPT to pieces in 2016 um I [66:34] wrote an article that was I was very [66:36] concerned about it in 2014 that was [66:38] published in 2015 and so like there was [66:40] people who were really like going after [66:42] it and so what did they do in 2017 they [66:45] said we're bringing in a team of expert [66:46] theologians and scholars to review okay [66:49] so then that was a full revision [66:51] so to speak, of the New Testament. Well, [66:53] it's still full of Victor Alexander and [66:54] Cabala and nonsense. Okay, so in 2020, [66:57] they said, "We've just upped our [66:59] procedures and we're we're doing a [67:01] rigorous review, right?" And then we [67:03] start hearing from the grapevine and [67:05] it's become louder and louder lately of [67:07] some scholars apparently saying, "I [67:09] didn't do a rigorous review. I looked at [67:11] a couple books and he rejected most of [67:13] my feedback and we moved on." And so my [67:15] concern and and John Mark shares this [67:17] concern with me, you know, is that Bethl [67:19] is essentially outsourcing their own [67:21] discernment. I think Bethl has been so [67:24] burned by their own lapses in judgment [67:26] that they're basically like, okay, if we [67:28] can avoid having to be the ones who make [67:30] the decision, that's that's easier on us [67:32] and we don't have to bear the brunt of [67:35] making the wrong decision. We can just [67:37] say, well, they made this third party [67:39] made the decision. And we're not [67:40] talking, by the way, here. [snorts] [67:42] We're not talking about essay or [67:44] something like that where you have to [67:45] bring in an independent third party uh [67:47] because there's conflicts of interest. [67:48] We're talking about why are people who [67:51] are supposedly trained pastors and [67:53] shepherds and leaders in the body of [67:54] Christ. Why are they incapable of [67:56] looking and saying this isn't the Bible? [67:58] >> That's kind of the whole point of why [68:00] you have a job, guys. Like this is your [68:02] job. [laughter] And so to outsource like [68:05] it's literally it's no different than a [68:07] pastor calling somebody up and being [68:08] like, "Hey, I need a sermon on uh [68:10] discernment this Sunday. can you write [68:11] it for me and I'll I'll like this is [68:13] your job. So, I'm really, really, [68:14] really, really disappointed that they [68:16] can't just say, "Hey, we've looked at [68:19] the evidence because that's our job as [68:21] pastors." And we realize that open your [68:24] mouth with a mighty decree. I will [68:25] fulfill it now, you'll see. Is not in [68:27] Psalm 81. And anyway, so I digress. I [68:30] get fired up. [68:31] >> They don't even have to do their own [68:32] investigation. They could look at So, [68:35] this is this is my frustration, right? [68:37] We have done a transparent investigation [68:40] ourselves wherein we give you all the [68:43] evidence and you can look at it yourself [68:46] and fact check our work [68:48] >> like a Phil Mason did. [68:50] >> Phil Mason. [68:51] >> Yeah, exactly right. [68:52] >> He has a ministry called Quantum [68:54] Ministries. Like how much more [68:56] charismatic can you get? [68:58] >> Yeah. And by the way, I to be fair I I I [69:00] don't know what Phil teaches [69:01] specifically. I'm pretty positive he [69:03] does not teach quantum mysticism. So I [69:05] want to give him the benefit of the [69:06] doubt. Uh I [laughter] the the choice [69:08] >> charismatic [69:09] >> the choice of word but absolutely Damon [69:10] Thompson rejected the thing right and so [69:13] that like all these other people looked [69:15] at it and they're like oh yeah we have [69:16] what we need and so I think it's [69:18] unfortunately I just think it's a lack [69:20] of wanting to take accountability [69:22] because they're like we can't afford one [69:24] more loss on our reputation at this [69:26] point and honestly they're right and [69:28] that's why it gets to the point where [69:30] you you cannot continue to um I'm not [69:34] saying have hope for the sense that God [69:36] can do something that only God can do. [69:38] But you cannot have a informed trust in [69:41] these people. [69:42] >> No. [69:42] >> If Yeah. [69:43] >> It's been two months, over two months, [69:45] right? [69:46] >> And it's worth the reminder that the the [69:48] Passion translation is what it is [69:50] because of Bill Johnson. [69:53] >> And he is the one who has promoted it [69:55] more than anybody else on the face of [69:57] the planet. and um that Bethl has its [70:00] own custom version of TPT with a 16page [70:05] forward by Bill Johnson. Um and might I [70:09] just point out really really briefly [70:12] >> when Mike Winger released all of the [70:14] videos from the scholars, right? What [70:15] what are scholars? Scholars are skilled [70:18] experts in the scriptures. We were told [70:21] by Bill Johnson and Dan Farley on camera [70:24] that those skilled experts are just [70:26] religious Pharisees who don't have the [70:28] spirit. That's literally what they said [70:30] in their response video in rediscovering [70:32] Bethl. And nowad [laughter] [70:34] >> they're outsourcing this to skilled [70:36] organizations. [70:38] Like the skilled scholars have been [70:40] speaking for the last like 12 years. [70:41] Like go read Andrew Sheed's article on [70:43] the I just wrote it again. He says this [70:45] isn't the word of God anymore. He's like [70:46] one of the top Hebrew scholars in the [70:48] world. And so I'm just frustrated that [70:50] it's like now you need expertise like [70:52] now you need scholarship now you need [70:54] like it's been there's nothing new and [70:56] so this is why we we have been trying to [70:58] give credit to people who came before us [71:00] >> because it's actually a in a sense a [71:03] judgment of God [71:05] >> that the stuff that we found had to come [71:07] out the way that it did because Bethl [71:09] had everything they needed to denounce [71:11] it 8 years ago and they just didn't want [71:13] to see it. [71:15] >> They've received so many warnings. It [71:17] just makes me so sad because I feel like [71:19] it's part of this reminds me of just [71:22] this whole partisan spirit thing. And I [71:24] don't say spirit in the necessarily like [71:26] it's an entity. I just mean like [71:27] demeanor. this partisanship that's in [71:29] society and culture where it's like, [71:33] well, you're that camp and I'm this [71:34] camp, so I can't listen to you and like [71:36] you are this and I am this and like [71:40] I don't know, everything is so knee-jerk [71:42] and so reactive and so stubborn and like [71:45] it gets so proud and at the end of the [71:46] day you forget what actually matters and [71:48] who matters. Um, and I feel like Bethl [71:52] is it's almost like they're they're [71:55] wanting to protect [71:58] um like a a sort of genre of [72:01] continuationism, like a a genre of [72:03] charismatic Christianity rather than [72:06] protect the people in it. Um, which and [72:11] like again like why I get emotional is [72:13] um and this is something I said in my [72:14] video like if I hadn't had a a grounding [72:18] in scripture like for all that I got off [72:20] track if my granny and my dad hadn't [72:22] taken the time to teach me the gospel [72:24] really clearly and I wasn't taught like [72:27] Jesus died on the cross that you could [72:29] have all authority and command things to [72:33] happen. If they had taught me that, do [72:36] you know I probably would have become a [72:38] better witch than my mother? Like [72:40] seriously. Um they taught me you have to [72:43] humble yourself under God. Um listen to [72:46] what he says. Um submit yourselves to [72:49] the scripture. Um it was very I was [72:52] really set up to know how to be [72:53] corrected by God and shaped. Um, and [72:56] then later, of course, because I had [72:58] that relationship um, with my [73:00] grandmother and that that trust in Jesus [73:02] and understood that he spoke in his [73:04] word, it's what I went to when I was [73:06] ready to repent and ready to understand [73:08] what was wrong with me. These, if you [73:11] give people a fake Bible, they can't be [73:14] corrected. Not only can they not be [73:17] corrected, but it's actually going to, [73:19] especially right now, like if you look [73:20] at the stuff that's happened in Bethl, a [73:22] lot of it is like, oh my gosh, there's [73:24] so much arrogance and pride. Um, and [73:26] these leaders come into power and they [73:28] have um, you know, they they walk around [73:31] and they're lording it over people and [73:33] they think they can never get caught. [73:35] Um, and there's like all these abuses. [73:37] And there's also honestly there's a [73:38] reputation in the culture for people [73:40] just being kind of selfish. Um and like [73:43] not having the greatest character. Um [73:46] and a lot of Bethl people like they like [73:48] a lot of alumni they leave and they [73:50] actually fall away from the Lord and [73:51] stuff. And that's not always character. [73:52] Sometimes it's being wounded. But I [73:54] think a lot of it is um we weren't first [73:58] we weren't taught to look at the [73:59] scriptures at all really. Right. So, the [74:02] scriptures were minimized and so people [74:03] aren't being corrected and they're not [74:05] able to run this race well. And um and [74:09] then the second is even worse. It's like [74:11] don't look at the real Bible, but read [74:12] this fake one a lot. Um and it's just [74:16] going to make you more narcissistic and [74:18] it's going to it's going to cause you to [74:21] to be like weird and and occultic, but [74:25] maybe gradually. Um sorry, I'm like [74:28] rambling. I just it really I'm like [74:30] don't you guys care? Like do they not [74:32] care? Like it's one thing to be like to [74:36] say, "Oh, we don't we don't trust these [74:39] experts or we don't like these experts." [74:42] Um [74:43] but what if they actually know something [74:45] that can protect people? I just I don't [74:47] know. I get really frustrated. Um I hope [74:49] they stop. Like I hope they really [74:51] repent. [74:53] Dusty, if you could speak to uh Bethl [74:57] and maybe just the entire charismatic [75:01] world and movement and maybe give them [75:03] one word of admonition [75:06] um or encouragement, what would you say? [75:10] >> What would I say? Um, [75:15] okay. [75:17] Yes, God is good and we absolutely [75:20] should love the Lord and we should serve [75:22] him by um by, you know, seeking to heal [75:26] the sick and I'm all for hearing from [75:28] the Lord. All of that is great. I have [75:31] it is wonderful that we love one another [75:33] and that we want to believe and hope the [75:35] best of one another. But charismatic [75:39] Christians are not the only other. Like [75:41] we're not actually the entire body of [75:43] Christ. Um and like the Bible says, you [75:45] know, the I cannot say to the hand or [75:47] however it goes, I do not need you. And [75:50] we actually need to um to value the [75:54] input of those who maybe would not be [75:57] comfortable going to our specific [75:58] church. We none of us have a monopoly on [76:02] the expression of God's church in the [76:05] earth. And we frequently actually have [76:07] something that each other need. So um [76:10] you know there are hard cessationist [76:11] camps who really honestly they need us [76:14] to love them. They need us to respect [76:16] what they bring to the table with their [76:18] reverence for the word. And they you [76:20] know they need to see that we truly are [76:24] their brothers and sisters. They need to [76:26] see that we have that humility and that [76:28] fear of the Lord and that love of the [76:30] word so that we can um show them, hey, [76:33] you don't need to be afraid of the Holy [76:35] Spirit. Like I think that is God's will. [76:37] God's will is that we would be a witness [76:40] to our brothers and sisters who maybe um [76:42] have lost that peace, but they also need [76:46] to be able to be a witness to us. We we [76:49] have to be humble. It's it's mutuality. [76:51] Um, they also have something to offer us [76:54] about the word of God in the scriptures. [76:56] The word and the spirit do not fight [76:58] each other and nobody, well, I can't say [77:00] nobody. Maybe there are people who would [77:03] like to just shut down continuationism. [77:06] That is not the will of the Lord in this [77:08] season. The Lord is trying to make our [77:11] churches safer. He's trying to make them [77:13] healthier. He's trying to make it so [77:15] that none of the people who have been [77:17] reached um by the Holy Spirit uh through [77:21] your ministries that none of them would [77:23] fall away and that those who are [77:24] discipled after would also have strong [77:26] faith and we could have a much more [77:28] balanced body of Christ that doesn't [77:30] walk with a limp. Right? that the the [77:32] charismatics [77:33] know the scriptures and rever the word [77:35] of God and can shake hands with the [77:37] people on the other side who have more [77:40] um more Bible uh focentric let's say [77:44] like more scripture centric um church [77:46] services doesn't even your church [77:48] service doesn't even necessarily [77:50] represent the entirety of your walk with [77:51] God like my granny believed that her [77:53] friend had a visit from Jesus in her [77:55] dream my granny was a Baptist [77:56] cessationist deaconess she tried to cast [77:58] out a demon once in a psych ward like [78:01] we're we have more in common than we [78:03] have separate if you open your heart and [78:06] if you are humble. Um so please do that [78:10] [laughter] is what I would say. [78:12] >> Yeah. [78:13] >> Yeah. [78:14] >> That's my soap box. [78:15] >> Well Dusty, thank you so much for taking [78:18] the time to to be with us. I want to [78:20] throw it to you David if you have any [78:22] final thoughts or final words to say. [78:25] No, th this is just it was really [78:27] powerful and thank you for sharing your [78:29] story and um I I just love it's it's so [78:32] beautiful to see the emphasis that you [78:34] have on repentance and um the fear of [78:37] the Lord. And I I've never heard it's [78:40] the first time I've ever heard a demonic [78:42] uh deliverance story where uh the [78:46] deliverance was God basically calling [78:47] you a false prophet and and you [78:50] repenting and being delivered. I was [78:51] like whoa like Deuteronomy 18 to you. I [78:53] love that phrase. And so anyways, that [78:55] that's really really really really [78:57] powerful. Um, thank you for sharing. [78:58] Thank you for the work that you do um [79:00] supporting the the TPT stuff and all of [79:03] that. Um, again, I think your channel is [79:06] doing so much good and um, yeah, we we [79:09] definitely just want to point people to [79:10] uh to your work. Um, so I'd encourage [79:12] everybody to go watch um, Dusty's [79:14] channel, subscribe. Uh, and again, [79:16] thanks for your time today. [79:17] >> A thanks guys. You're the best. [79:21] >> Yeah. Well, God bless you, Dusty, and [79:24] those of you who watched. Um, I pray [79:26] that this this was an encouraging, maybe [79:29] instructive, maybe convicting uh [79:31] episode. God bless you guys.  ## Highlights - There shall not be found any among you who practice like witchcraft, sorcery, divination, necromancy, causing your son or daughter to pass through the fire. - Note: 📚 Deuteronomy 18 triggers Dusty's occult-deliverance encounter · - Occurs at the narrative's climax, immediately after a friend reports Dusty's eyes appearing black. - Functions as the interpretive hinge of her entire testimony — everything before is "occult," everything after is "deliverance." · #atom/literature/h1 - not every snake is a snake is a bad snake because of you know, Nahushin, the the snake on the pole. - Note: 📚 Vallotton reply deflects occult-content concern via serpent analogy · - Reported as Kris Vallotton's second response to Dusty's warning about *Physics of Heaven*. - Recollection, not documented quote — treat accordingly downstream. · #atom/literature/h2 - It took me until after Bethl when I actually read Physics of Heaven, and I saw it so blatant - Note: 📚 Physics of Heaven names the pattern Dusty recognizes · - The moment Dusty says she connected Bethel-endorsed teaching to her family's occult vocabulary. - Directly precedes her decision to email Vallotton — causally central to the episode's institutional-critique thread. · #atom/literature/h3 - Suppressing divine judgment invites occult reframing - Note: [[Spiritual abuse]] — because extends (this is one mechanism by which doctrinally imbalanced communities become sites of harm, not the only one) · - [[Spiritual abuse]] — because extends (this is one mechanism by which doctrinally imbalanced communities become sites of harm, not the only one) · #atom/zettel/z1 - Confirm "Chris Valatin" is an auto-caption error for "Kris Vallotton" (Bethel's co-senior leader) before citing this anywhere — high confidence but unverified in this excerpt. #xref - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f1 - Locate the full, uncut episode — this transcript ends mid-sentence on Judy Franklin's role as *Physics of Heaven*'s compiler and Bill Johnson's endorsement. #xref - Note: ✏️ Fleeting capture #atom/fleeting/f2 - the enemy has a plan for Bethel... Mount Shasta is nearby, it's like an occult hub."** Dusty herself hedges this ("I don't know if some of the leaders were conscious of it"), which is good epistemic practice, but the geographic-spiritual-influence claim is offered with no evidentiary standard by which it could be falsified. **Fix:** flag this explicitly as speculative framing rather than established causation, which to her credit she partially does on her own. - Note: 🔍 Fallacy: Hasty Generalization #fallacy/hasty-generalization ## Links - [[3. Resources/Permanent Notes/Internal Warnings Need Corroboration Before They Become Institutional Findings]] — distinguishes what this insider testimony establishes from what still requires the underlying correspondence.