Greyd Conversations #17 - Reshaping Events in the WP Industry

Greyd Conversations #17 - Reshaping Events in the WP Industry ![rw-book-cover](https://readwise-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/static/images/article0.00998d930354.png) 🔗 **Source:** [Greyd Conversations #17 - Reshaping Events in the WP Industry](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [event-management, wordpress-ecosystem, conference-strategy, business-partnerships, community-events, sponsorship-models] > author: [MISSING] > source: Greyd Conversations > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54 > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: Greyd Conversations #17 - Reshaping Events in the WP Industry >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: WordPress event landscape is shifting from traditional WordCamps to business-focused conferences like PressConf and CloudFest Agency Summit due to declining sponsorships and attendance - **Why it matters**: The fundamental economics and purpose of WordPress events are misaligned - flagship WordCamps cost €680,000+ to organize but maintain community-focused restrictions that limit commercial value - **Key stakeholders**: Event organizers (Carole Olinger, Raquel Mariquez), sponsors/partners (Mark from Greyd), WordPress community, agencies, hosting companies - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Community events may lose funding while business events fragment the ecosystem; smaller agencies could be excluded from business conversations - **Bottom line**: There's room for multiple event formats, but WordCamps need to evolve their sponsorship model or risk becoming unsustainable ## 📖 Main Content The WordPress event ecosystem is experiencing a fundamental shift as traditional WordCamps face declining attendance and sponsorship while business-focused events gain traction. This conversation between event organizers and sponsors reveals deep structural issues with how WordPress events are funded and positioned. ### The Economic Reality Gap WordCamps began as small community-driven learning events with €1,000 sponsorships, but flagship events now require €680,000+ budgets while maintaining the same community-focused restrictions. As Carole Olinger notes: "if you are investing €75,000, you need a clear return on investment. That's not giving back anymore." This creates an impossible situation where sponsors are expected to finance events but restricted from behaving like businesses. Mark from Greyd explains the sponsor perspective: "we have created an environment where businesses are welcome to finance, but only if they don't behave like businesses too much." ### Alternative Models Emerging **PressConf** targets C-suite executives and decision-makers with high-quality, Ted Talk-level presentations in an intimate setting. Raquel Mariquez describes it as "if CloudFest and WordCamp had a baby" - combining WordCamp's speaker selection integrity with CloudFest's business focus. **CloudFest Agency Summit** grew from 300-400 attendees to 1,155 by actively targeting agencies with personal outreach and clear value propositions. They distinguish between "sponsorships" (giving back) and "partnerships" (mutual benefit with clear obligations). ### Content Quality and Audience Targeting Both successful events prioritize speaker quality over inclusivity. Unlike WordCamps which encourage first-time speakers, business events require proven performers. As Raquel notes: "as a business conference, you can't afford to have a first time person go up there and talk." The key differentiator is clear audience definition. Mark emphasizes: "everyone is not a strategy" and values events where he understands the target group, rules, and expected behavior. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:03:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=192) Event Introductions - CloudFest: 8-9 years, bridges business and community gaps - PressConf: Resurrects PressNomics format, small purposeful business space - Both focus on decision-makers and business value #### ⏱️ [00:08:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=525) Decline Factors - Economic pressure in Europe reducing sponsorship budgets - WordCamps too restrictive for business ROI requirements - Same people attending - lacks fresh networking opportunities - Poor marketing reach beyond WordPress bubble #### ⏱️ [00:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=930) Cost-Benefit Misalignment - WordCamp Europe Porto: €680,000 raised by single organizer - €75,000+ sponsorships require investment returns, not charity - Fundamental purpose shift from community learning to major business investment #### ⏱️ [00:22:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=1335) Content Balance Strategies - Educate sponsors on audience needs vs product features - Value delivery on stage builds expertise credibility - PressConf: Hand-selected speakers, no purchased speaking slots - CloudFest: Partnership obligations go both ways #### ⏱️ [00:28:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=1720) Sales and Trust Approach - Personal relationship building over form-based applications - "I'm bringing money, I'm investing" - not applying for privilege - Long-term partnerships vs transactional sponsorships - Honest assessment if event fits partner needs #### ⏱️ [00:35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=2120) Target Audience Importance - Clear ICP enables appropriate behavior and expectations - PressConf: C-suite networking with confidential discussions - CloudFest Hackathon: Different energy for developer-focused activities - WordCamps lack clear behavioral guidelines for diverse audiences #### ⏱️ [00:42:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=2530) Positive WordCamp Evolution - WordCamp US Portland: Showcase Day allowed sponsor presentations - WordCamp Asia: 5-minute sponsor pitches before closing - Movement toward business integration before being overshadowed #### ⏱️ [00:45:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=2750) Personal Outreach Success - CloudFest Agency Summit: Tripled attendance through direct agency contact - Personal passion communication vs AI-generated emails - VIP ticket tier for agency decision-makers - 1,155 attendees including diverse business actors #### ⏱️ [00:52:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54&t=3150) Future Competition Concerns - Budget competition intensifying as new events emerge - C-suite speakers have limited availability - Early budget planning essential (February asks for April events fail) - AI and industry-specific events may outcompete WordPress events ## 📚 References - [CloudFest](https://www.cloudfest.com/) - [PressConf](https://pressconf.co/) - [WordCamp Europe](https://europe.wordcamp.org/) - [WordCamp US](https://us.wordcamp.org/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase WordPress events face a fundamental crisis where traditional WordCamps maintain community-focused restrictions despite requiring massive corporate sponsorships. Meanwhile, business-focused alternatives like PressConf and CloudFest Agency Summit succeed by clearly defining target audiences, building genuine partnerships, and prioritizing content quality over inclusivity. The root issue is misaligned expectations - sponsors invest €75,000+ expecting business returns while WordCamps maintain charitable giving frameworks. Successful events distinguish between "sponsorships" (community giving) and "partnerships" (mutual business benefit with clear obligations). Both emerging models emphasize personal relationship building, honest needs assessment, and long-term partnership development. They reject the traditional "apply for sponsorship" model in favor of collaborative planning with clearly defined ICPs and behavioral expectations. ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Event Evolution: From Community to Commerce** The WordPress event landscape is transforming as business-focused conferences gain traction while traditional WordCamps struggle with sponsorship and attendance. This week's Greyd Conversations reveals why events like PressConf and CloudFest Agency Summit are succeeding where flagship WordCamps face challenges. **Key Insight**: When WordCamps require €680,000 budgets but maintain community restrictions, they create an impossible situation for sponsors needing business ROI. **For WordPress Professionals**: - Consider business-focused events for networking and lead generation - Understand the difference between community sponsorship and business partnerships - Target events with clear ICPs matching your goals **Resources**: - [PressConf](https://pressconf.co/) - Intimate C-suite WordPress conference - [CloudFest](https://www.cloudfest.com/) - Hosting and WordPress business summit - Event sponsorship strategy templates and ROI frameworks The future isn't WordCamps vs business events - there's room for both when expectations align with delivery. ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - **Organizers**: Distinguish between community sponsorships vs business partnerships with clear obligations - **WordPress Foundation**: Evaluate flagship event sustainability with current sponsorship restrictions - **Local organizers**: Consider hybrid models balancing community access with business value #### WordPress - **Events Team**: Study successful showcase day implementations for business integration - **Core Program Team**: Address event ecosystem fragmentation through coordinated strategy - **Community**: Support diverse event formats serving different constituency needs #### DevRel - **Event strategy**: Map conference attendance to specific ICP and business objectives - **Partnership development**: Build long-term relationships vs transactional sponsorships - **Content planning**: Balance community education with business case studies ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Clear target audience definition correlates with event sponsorship success and attendee satisfaction - Personal outreach outperforms automated marketing for high-value event partnerships - Business-focused WordPress events will continue growing while community-only events decline - Early budget planning (12+ months) becomes essential as competition for sponsors intensifies - Content quality standards directly impact sponsor and attendee retention rates - Partnership models with mutual obligations outperform traditional sponsorship structures ### 📊 Methodology - Survey sponsors across different WordPress event types on ROI metrics - Track attendance patterns at business vs community events over 3-year period - Analyze speaker quality correlation with repeat attendance/sponsorship - Compare outreach methods (personal vs automated) for conversion rates - Study budget allocation timing across WordPress companies ### ❓ Questions - How can WordCamps evolve sponsorship models without losing community character? - What's the optimal balance between speaker diversity and content quality for business audiences? - How will AI-focused and industry-agnostic events impact WordPress-specific conferences? - Can personal outreach scale for larger events or does it only work for intimate conferences? ### 🔮 Future Research - Economics of sustainable community event models in commercial ecosystems - Impact of event fragmentation on WordPress community cohesion - Effectiveness of hybrid community-business event formats - Role of geographic distribution in event competition dynamics ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Event organizers must choose clear positioning between community and business focus - **Policy**: WordPress Foundation may need to evolve WordCamp guidelines for flagship events - **Funding**: Alternative funding models needed for community events as business sponsors migrate - **Education**: Event marketing must target specific ICPs rather than general WordPress community ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade 12.8 - College level content with business terminology and complex event economics. #### 👀 Visual learners - **Present**: Discussion format with multiple speakers, names/titles displayed - **Improve**: Event comparison matrix, sponsorship cost visualizations, attendance trend charts #### 🔊 Aural learners - **Present**: Full video conversation with natural dialogue - **Improve**: Chapter markers for topic navigation, audio-only version #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - **Present**: Clear definitions of sponsorship vs partnership, detailed examples - **Improve**: Glossary of event industry terms, analogy-rich explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - **Present**: Real-world case studies and actionable examples - **Improve**: Event planning checklists, ROI calculation worksheets #### 🧠 Logical learners - **Present**: Cost-benefit analysis, clear cause-effect relationships - **Improve**: Decision trees for event selection, budget allocation frameworks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - **Present**: Multi-stakeholder discussion format - **Improve**: Follow-up discussion prompts, community feedback mechanisms #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - **Present**: Individual speaker insights and personal experiences - **Improve**: Reflection questions on personal event strategy ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - **Present**: Video has speaker identification, structured dialogue - **Improve**: Full transcript with speaker labels, topic timestamps #### Keyboard navigation - **Present**: Standard YouTube player controls - **Improve**: Chapter navigation, transcript search functionality #### Contrast and readability - **Present**: Clear video quality with readable speaker overlays - **Improve**: High-contrast transcript option #### Media and captions - **Present**: YouTube auto-captions available - **Improve**: Professional captions with speaker identification, downloadable transcript ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - **Present**: European and US event perspectives - **Improve**: Global event organizer representation, regional challenge discussion #### Inclusive language - **Present**: Professional business terminology, respectful framing - **Improve**: Plain-language summary of event industry concepts #### Representation - **Present**: Both male and female organizer perspectives - **Improve**: Diverse geographic representation, various event scale experiences ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Economic analysis**: Clear cost-benefit breakdown of event sponsorship evolution shows logical progression from community to business requirements - **Causal relationships**: Demonstrates how economic pressure and ROI requirements drive event format changes - **Comparative evidence**: Uses specific examples (CloudFest, PressConf) to support arguments about successful alternative models #### Fallacies - **False dichotomy**: Presents WordCamps vs business events as either/or choice rather than spectrum of options - **Hasty generalization**: Extrapolates from limited sponsor experience to broader industry trends #### Tone of voice - **Collaborative and pragmatic**: Speakers acknowledge multiple perspectives and room for different approaches - **Business-focused but respectful**: Critiques WordCamp model without dismissing community value ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis No DARVO patterns detected. Discussion maintains constructive tone focused on structural challenges rather than personal attacks or blame shifting. ## 🎯 Conclusion The WordPress event ecosystem is evolving from a one-size-fits-all community model to a diverse landscape of specialized conferences. The key insight is that events requiring massive sponsorships (€75,000+) cannot operate under community charity frameworks - they need business partnership models with clear mutual obligations and ROI expectations. Successful events like PressConf and CloudFest Agency Summit demonstrate the value of clear audience targeting, personal relationship building, and content quality standards. Rather than competing with WordCamps, they're filling gaps in the business community that traditional formats cannot address. The practical next step for the WordPress community is embracing this diversification while ensuring smaller agencies and community members aren't excluded from business conversations. This may require evolving WordCamp guidelines for flagship events or developing new hybrid models that balance community accessibility with business sustainability. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### Business events succeed through clear ICP targeting > [!quote] [Greyd Conversations #17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54) by [MISSING] via [[Greyd Conversations]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}}. > "Everyone is not a strategy...if you have a clear ICP, everybody knows what's going on." Mark emphasizes that successful events define specific target audiences rather than trying to serve everyone. This enables appropriate behavior expectations and measurable value delivery. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54#business-icp) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### WordCamp economics misaligned with sponsor expectations > [!quote] [Greyd Conversations #17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54) > "If you are investing €75,000, you need a clear return on investment. That's not giving back anymore." Carole identifies the fundamental issue where flagship WordCamps require massive sponsorships but maintain community-focused restrictions that prevent business value delivery. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54#wordcamp-economics) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_002 ### Personal outreach outperforms automated marketing > [!quote] [Greyd Conversations #17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54) > "I'm bringing the money, I'm investing. We talked about investment...So what I absolutely hate is apply for that." Mark contrasts effective personal relationship building with impersonal application processes that treat sponsors as supplicants rather than partners. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54#personal-outreach) #xref ID:rw_003 ### Content quality drives business event success > [!quote] [Greyd Conversations #17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54) > "As a business conference, you can't afford to have a first time person go up there and talk." Raquel explains why business events prioritize proven speakers over inclusive diversity, contrasting with WordCamp's encouragement of new speakers. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54#content-quality) #xref ID:rw_004 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### Event ROI requirements increase with sponsorship costs - When sponsorships exceed €50,000, community goodwill becomes insufficient justification - Business partnerships require mutual obligations and measurable returns - Links: [[Event-Economics]] [[Sponsorship-Models]] #### Clear audience targeting enables appropriate event behavior - Undefined demographics create unclear expectations for sponsors and attendees - Successful events specify exact ICP and behavioral guidelines - Links: [[Target-Marketing]] [[Event-Strategy]] #### Personal relationship building outperforms automated outreach - High-value partnerships require trust and mutual understanding - "Apply" mindset treats investors as supplicants rather than partners - Links: [[Partnership-Development]] [[Sales-Strategy]] #### Content quality standards correlate with business event success - First-time speakers inappropriate for high-stakes business audiences - Ted Talk-level presentations required for C-suite attention - Links: [[Speaker-Selection]] [[Content-Strategy]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue (Extract by Selection) - WordPress event ecosystem fragmenting between community and business focus — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54 #fleeting #inbox - €680,000 WordCamp budgets incompatible with community restrictions — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54 #fleeting #inbox - PressConf targets C-suite with intimate Ted Talk format — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54 #fleeting #inbox - CloudFest tripled attendance through personal agency outreach — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54 #fleeting #inbox - Partnership model requires mutual obligations vs one-way sponsorship — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bDTo1dGA54 #fleeting #inbox --- ## Full Transcript [00:15] Hi everyone, and [00:15] welcome to another episode of Greyd Conversations. [00:19] And this episode today is going to be about events in the WordPress ecosystem [00:23] and whether the formats that we have today are still working for us. [00:27] And for this episode, I'm very excited to welcome Carole Olinger, [00:31] Head of CloudFest Hackathon and WP Business & Agency Summit [00:37] and Raquel Mariquez, Creator and Executive Producer of PressConf. [00:40] And our CEO, Mark, who has not only attended and sponsored events [00:44] but has recently also been assigned as an advisory board member [00:48] for CloudFest America. [00:49] Welcome to all three of you. [00:53] It's very great to have you here. [00:54] Maybe before we start, Raquel and Carole, there might be a few people [00:59] listening who have not yet had a chance to [01:02] to visit PressConf and or CloudFest Agency Summit in person. [01:05] So please would you share a little bit about, [01:09] what those events are about and who they are for? [01:12] Who wants to go first? [01:16] Ah, Carole, please. [01:19] All right. [01:21] Okay. I got to go first. [01:23] Yeah. [01:24] I'm actually one of the people [01:25] that I haven't been to PressConf yet, and I definitely want to change that. [01:29] So, but what am I doing? [01:32] So I, working with CloudFest for, I think, 8 or 9 years now. [01:37] So, the head of CloudFest Hackathon, but also the, very new, WordPress [01:44] Business and Agency Summit that we, [01:47] initiated this year for the 2026 edition. [01:51] And, I love, working and collaborating [01:55] in CloudFest an attending it because to me, it has been, opening and, [02:00] broadening my horizon in terms of what conferences can be. [02:05] Coming more from the WordPress side of things and WordPress ecosphere. [02:11] And yeah, I really love that CloudFest. [02:14] has given me and so many people that I, connected [02:20] with the opportunity to actually, bridge [02:24] the gaps between the, business [02:27] and the community parts of, the WordPress industry. [02:31] So that's what I felt would be something valuable that I could contribute to. [02:37] And while I wasn't able to do that inside, [02:41] the established systems [02:45] of the WordPress Foundation, [02:47] I was very much able to do that, in an alternative scenario. [02:53] And that is what we are going to talk about a little bit more today. [02:56] And, what I'm excited to hear all, [02:59] your visions and experiences, that you've been collecting [03:04] over the past month. [03:07] Absolutely. [03:08] We're definitely going to cover that. [03:09] Before that, Raquel, [03:10] I also want to give you a chance to introduce us to PressConf. [03:15] Yes, I am Raquel, and I founded PressConf. [03:19] Really? [03:20] It was founded based out of a severe need for business in WordPress. [03:25] I also very much come from the WordPress community. [03:28] Most of my event experience actually came from organizing, volunteering [03:33] for WordCamps , flagship and local [03:37] WordCamps, for like ten years doing that. [03:40] But then I've also done other events and, through WordPress. [03:44] I actually discovered this is what I'm really, really good at. [03:46] I had a whole story of why I sort of discovered who I am [03:50] and why I am way, backward in reverse. [03:53] Because I did everything a little bit differently. [03:56] I had kids first before I had a career first. [03:58] So I very much [04:00] will always have a special place for WordPress in my heart because of that. [04:03] But it was not solving all of the needs of the community. [04:08] And post-pandemic, it was really becoming [04:11] prevalent that we needed a space for business again. [04:14] And everything in my life was aligning that I was about to have [04:17] a lot more time on my hands, and it was the perfect opportunity [04:21] to resurrect what was PressNomics, Mix the business of WordPress [04:26] conference to my conference, which became PressConf [04:30] and it is a small space for businesses, for business founders, [04:35] C-suite managers, those who are decision makers in the community. [04:41] And it is small and purpose. [04:42] So that way we can have the opportunity to actually talk with each other [04:45] and see each other and really fill in the gap for what? [04:49] Like Carole mentioned, we are missing in the WordPress space, [04:53] but with the the idea that this is a yes [04:56] and we are adding to the WordPress space and not taking away from. [05:00] So it's a little bit of why I'm here and who I am. [05:05] Thank you very much. [05:06] You both already mentioned, WordCamps [05:09] and, community and then business side of things. [05:13] I think what we all, are seeing is that there is a decline in both sponsors [05:18] and attendees at the moment for the flagship word camps [05:21] and at the same time, the more business related formats like PressConf [05:25] and CloudFest are gaining more traction. [05:29] Mark, from from your perspective, [05:31] what do you think is changing in the WordPress event landscape? [05:35] Why do we see this decline and sponsors and attendees? [05:40] I mean, there are several reasons for this. [05:43] One thing is, especially in Europe, economy is not doing too good. [05:48] Yeah. [05:48] So, sponsorship budgets are. [05:53] Yeah. Getting smaller. [05:55] Also agencies budgets are tight. [05:58] So traveling around Europe to, to hang out at a WordCamp [06:01] for a couple of days with 2 or 3 developers or designers, [06:05] that might be a lot of money for, for smaller agencies, etc.. [06:10] There is a lot of pressure, [06:12] on the revenue side for product companies, hosters etc. [06:15] so, they think about where to spend that money best. [06:19] And, I mean, [06:22] and to be very honest, yeah, we go to Word Camps to, [06:26] to meet people, to recruit people, to inform people. [06:29] But in the end we go to events to sell. [06:31] Yeah. To, to, create leads. [06:34] And, this is easier when you're not at a WordCamp [06:38] because in the last couple of years, the WordCamps worked really well. [06:43] But, nowadays it's it's kind of too restrictive. [06:46] And, and if I see a difference between WordPress, WordCamp [06:50] in, in Portugal and, and the Netherlands and, and then in Italy [06:54] and what happened last year and last year in Basel. [06:57] Yeah. [06:58] Traction is getting slower and slower and for a growing business [07:00] like Greyd, In those cases, we decide different. [07:04] So for example, [07:05] we are spending our budgets on other events and not just in WordCamps. [07:08] And I know for a fact that more and more CEOs are thinking about that. [07:13] So, yeah, there is a future for very specialized, events, [07:18] but not so much for very general and very restrictive events, [07:21] especially if they are not business focused. [07:25] Maybe one thing that I've also noticed [07:27] is that at WordCamps you often kind of run into the same people. [07:31] I mean, it's kind of nice because it feels a little bit like a class reunion. [07:36] But at the same time, many of our agency customers [07:39] who have been working with WordPress for all their, for all their existence, [07:45] they don't go to WordCamp. [07:46] Some of them, they don't even know that a WordCamp exists. [07:50] So you already mentioned a couple of reasons [07:53] why we the attendance is getting down, but in general, [07:57] why don't we see more agencies and decision [08:00] makers attending WordCamp [08:03] Is that a questioning to my direction? [08:06] It's to anybody. [08:08] Okay, but I will answer, I think in the end it's [08:13] the marketing [08:14] approach is yeah, is kind of special. [08:18] So a lot of people don't know that they are WordCamps, I mean, when we tried [08:22] or especially Jessica from our team and her team tried to organize WordCamp, [08:27] a Germany couple of years ago, you couldn't read about it. [08:30] So there is basically no marketing. [08:32] I mean, you think there's a lot of marketing [08:34] because you are in the WordPress bubble You see that everywhere. [08:36] But the WordPress bubble, it's just the tip of the iceberg for the business. [08:39] So nobody knows in the end. [08:41] And to be very honest, I mean, we invited [08:44] some of our partners to WordCamps and for them that was just not attractive. [08:48] So if it really is not a model and, don't get me wrong, [08:53] a lot of agency owners or employees would love to travel to an event, [08:57] but a WordCamp doesn't seem to be attractive enough. [09:04] At least at the moment, I think. [09:08] I think that the hard part [09:09] is the why behind WordCamps even began in the 2000, [09:15] which was essentially like a camp, [09:18] a day camp to learn about WordPress. [09:20] And over time it grew and became something bigger, badder. [09:25] And it transcended. [09:27] And there is, I think, this desire from, [09:31] you know, automatic site [09:34] to bring it back to its roots, to why, WordCamp existed. [09:38] But then you had these WordCamps like, even local ones like Word Camp Phoenix [09:43] or even Word Camp Netherlands, who, you know, they, [09:48] they really put on really not local events, [09:51] you know, they, they sort of superseded and started to answer those questions. [09:54] I think the first time there was a business track, I could be wrong. [09:58] Someone to fact check me was Word Camp [10:00] Orange County or San Diego 2013, something like that. [10:03] 2014. So things just started to change. [10:07] And then at the same time, WordPress was growing [10:10] up, companies that built that were built on WordPress were growing up. [10:14] And you get to the point where you now need to make more money [10:19] like you're referring to Mark. [10:20] And and now post-pandemic, we're in this place [10:24] where, where yeah, there there just wasn't enough. [10:27] And for someone to go think, why would I spend tens of thousands of dollars [10:33] for me and my entire team to a WordCamp that charges 60 to 100 USD, [10:38] and it doesn't attract other people that they want to see. [10:43] And that's the the struggle. [10:47] At least that's stating the struggle. [10:51] I yeah, I totally agree with what Raquel said. [10:54] So the, the initial purpose of WordCamps has never been [10:58] commercial back then, but I never think grew. [11:01] And I think the there's a moment in time where there should have been, [11:06] at distinguishment, the distinction [11:09] between what is a community driven event [11:14] and also for the community, and by the community and [11:19] what are or could be flagship events where organizers needed [11:24] a lot more money to make them happen for 3000 plus people [11:28] in, and especially post-pandemic, [11:31] when costs for venues just exploded because they all had to make up [11:36] for the year, they couldn't have any income. [11:40] And so I was on the organizing team [11:42] for WordCampEurope in Porto back then on the sponsor team, [11:46] and was one of the biggest in in, in terms of attendees. [11:50] And I alone raised €680,000, in terms of sponsor money. [11:56] So we are a team of 6 to 7 people. [12:00] So you can begin to imagine, like what, [12:03] what the costs are, to, to, to organize such an event. [12:09] And if the costs are so high, it also means [12:12] the sponsorships become more and more expensive to to make it run. [12:15] And if we are talking about giving back, [12:18] which was maybe justified in, in the early 2000 [12:24] to 2010 or so sponsorships, I don't know what they were, but I can say [12:29] for local WordCamps in Germany there was sponsorships for 1000 bucks. [12:33] You can talk even as a small agencies, [12:36] but giving back to the project when you are paying 1000 bucks, right? [12:40] But if you're talking about investments, €75,000 or dollars, [12:45] you name it and more, that's not giving back. [12:48] You need a clear return on investment. [12:51] If you are investing that amount of money. [12:55] And so there's a huge discrepancy between [12:59] community driven goals [13:01] and learning, education and investing €75,000. [13:08] So that is not giving back anymore. [13:10] And I think that those conversations, they they did not happen in a way [13:15] they should have happened. [13:16] And I think that [13:18] yeah, it's it's not it's [13:21] just not the same purpose anymore when we talk about huge flagship events. [13:25] And that is why you are seeing attendees attendee numbers [13:29] and sponsor numbers decreasing because you have a ton of tests. [13:33] Now that are much better suited for your return on investment. [13:36] I think you're making a very strong point. [13:38] Yeah, because that was actually something I, I also wanted to ask [13:41] because one thing is that is also special about WordCamps [13:44] is that the intentionally keep the ticket prices very low, [13:49] for the community reasons, which at the same time, [13:51] as I just mentioned, it increases the dependency on sponsors, [13:56] which is okay if like I said, giving back is like the main ROI, [14:00] was like the main ROI, [14:02] which is fine for for smaller ticket sizes, but [14:04] speaking about this, bigger numbers, like I said, the businesses, [14:08] they need to justify it to justify that amount of spending. [14:11] They need a clear ROI, which is super difficult. [14:15] I can [14:15] I can speak from from our own experience if there is the expectation not to sell. [14:20] So people are there, they are actually kind of offended [14:24] if you try to do some outreach before the event. [14:27] It's it's [14:27] very limited where you are allowed to speak about your product, the talks. [14:31] They can't focus on use cases other than, for example, [14:35] what we've seen in WordCamp US. What I thought personally [14:38] was a good initiative was the showcase day, for example. [14:41] But it really kind of kind of feels like we have created, [14:45] at least at these flagships, events, we have created [14:48] an environment where businesses are welcome to finance, [14:52] but only if they don't behave like businesses too much. [14:55] So, I really understand that. [14:57] And on the other hand, what what what do we also have to to say? [15:01] I mean, that's not really an issue in, in the WordPress space or so far [15:05] I haven't seen that. So far. [15:07] But there are events [15:08] which are the exact opposite, [15:10] where the talks feel more like product showcases only. [15:13] And that also creates a vicious circle, because then [15:16] if the content quality gets lower, then also [15:18] there will be fewer senior attendees and there's less value for the sponsor. [15:22] So the question whether a sponsor or not [15:26] Raquel and [15:28] Carole, you have both been in a situation of like being responsible [15:32] also for the content of the events and for for talk tracks. [15:36] How do you find the right balance of giving both sponsors [15:39] the opportunity to present their products and, and also talk about use cases, [15:45] but not make it too product focused and and keep the topics [15:48] interesting for the audience. [15:52] So you get that one first. [15:54] I think that so it's [15:59] I have often been in a position where it's so the role in sales [16:06] when you are organizing events is like on, on, on different fronts. [16:10] Right? [16:11] So you're selling to sponsors, you're also selling [16:14] to attendees, even even if it is like the word price ticket. [16:17] At what price? [16:18] WordCamp Ticket. [16:21] There we go. [16:22] If you're selling your show, [16:25] and the sponsors that are the partners, I prefer to call a partner. [16:29] So honestly. [16:31] So the partners are coming aboard. [16:33] You also want to give them the opportunity to sell their services, [16:38] or that product at the best in the best possible way. [16:42] So I'm trying to to actually educate my partners [16:46] and to have a clearer understanding first myself. [16:49] We're going to be my attendees [16:51] and to, to to to forward that information to the partner. [16:55] So they have to understand what is the audience and what do they need. And [17:02] and then you have to build [17:04] together with them, [17:07] a talk, a [17:08] session, a workshop, whatever your format is, [17:11] where they can showcase their expertise live on stage, [17:17] because that will sell much more then present the numbers or, how they, [17:24] they, they've built something in a way that is not interesting for the audience. [17:28] For example, if you have a hosting company explaining in the very [17:34] essential little details how they are building their solution, [17:38] and we had that conversation with Mark a lot. [17:39] And you are focusing on an agency audience. [17:42] They don't care. [17:43] They want the solution to work because they are paying [17:46] a ton of money for it to work. [17:50] How they built it, they are not interested like this. [17:54] So that's the thing that's very often is a discrepancy of what the partners [17:58] think makes them sell their product, their service, [18:02] and what the audience actually needs. [18:03] And I think if you are a good event organizer, you understand your audience [18:07] and you have you find a way to educate your partners, [18:11] to make them understand that it is in their most, [18:15] essential, interest to provide value to the audience on stage first. [18:21] And then they understand that you are the expert, in what you are doing. [18:24] And then they may be interesting [18:26] in working with yours or, buying your product or your service. [18:29] So that's, I think there's a, there's a huge, educational approach there. [18:34] At least that's how I am. [18:36] I am I'm trying to do it. [18:40] Yeah. [18:41] I mean, absolutely. [18:42] And I think that's that is a struggle. [18:44] So I look at PressConf very almost like a hybrid. [18:48] Like I think I've said, if Cloud Fest and WordCamp had a baby, [18:52] where I look at PressConf. [18:54] So what I love about WordCamps is you can't buy, [18:59] a speaking engagement, although there was talks about possibly changing, [19:03] but that's been the case so far that you can't buy a speaker engagement. [19:07] And I love that because it it forces people to, [19:10] to actually come up with better content with their talks to counterpoint the [19:15] the hard part, though, is that WordCamps also very much encouraged [19:20] never before talks, given talks, which that's not a problem [19:24] in in of itself because I very much in pro like give somebody a chance. [19:28] Never thought they could have a chance. [19:29] And I do think that WordCamps have established themselves as that. [19:33] But as a business conference, you can't afford to have a first time [19:37] person go up there and talk. And [19:40] there might be an exception and I'm willing to see what that could look like. [19:43] But, you know, you just really can't. [19:45] And so I know, the other events [19:49] you can you're a sponsorship can come with a speaking engagement. [19:52] And we had that talk this year with sponsors. [19:55] It's like, well, you don't offer speaking engagements. [19:57] I'm like, well damn straight I don't because I can't like like [20:03] I you've seen it all., where there, like a sponsor. [20:06] They, you know, they sponsor me so they get a speaking engagement [20:09] and then they just bomb on stage or in a just like, [20:13] call it in and you're just like, well, what the hell is that? [20:16] Like? [20:17] That just it doesn't serve anybody. [20:19] It doesn't serve the sponsor. That sponsor. [20:22] It doesn't serve the attendees, which is. [20:23] But, you know, the target market. [20:25] So what what we do differently, I guess it is we hand select the speakers. [20:30] That doesn't mean, a sponsor might not have a speaker. [20:34] It still could mean that. [20:36] But we put a heavy emphasis on our speakers at, our talks at PressConf. [20:41] And so that is, I guess, where I've taken the approach differently. [20:45] Is this the sessions I actually want people to attend? [20:50] So we have very few sessions and I make those sessions [20:53] very heavy, like, almost like every single one of them is like Ted talk level. [20:57] And so if a sponsor gets to speak like now everybody wins, [21:02] because a sponsor is going to understand that the reason why their speaker is [21:06] speaking is because of the speaker and the content, not become the sponsor. [21:10] And so that speaker is going to like they better come with it. [21:14] All right. [21:15] And then the audience now gets that it the speaker who's up there, [21:20] not because they're sponsoring, but because they have a message to, to share. [21:24] I, I want to say [21:26] something about that selling sponsorships that because I'm, I'm a customer. [21:29] Yeah. [21:30] And I also have to sell as if [21:33] I also have to sell software and some sometimes I have to wine and dine people. [21:37] Yeah. That that is necessary. [21:39] Or at least I have to to talk to them a little. [21:42] Be interesting telling them that I need them, etc. [21:45] and to be very honest, when I talk to to the both of you about the conference [21:49] and Carole, we now do that every year we have a conversation. [21:53] Do you tell me what the plan is? [21:54] You tell me what's going on. [21:56] Your time is already, on boards. [21:59] How I could help. [22:00] What could be interesting for me? [22:02] Which sponsorship could be interesting for me? [22:03] Is there a party or whatsoever? [22:05] Yeah. So you wine and dine me. Yeah. [22:07] It's interesting. [22:08] I want to be part of that. Yeah. And, [22:12] at the moment I'm. [22:13] I'm writing and talking a lot about events as you know, [22:16] and, obviously then I get emails. [22:19] Yeah. [22:20] And, those are not wining and dining me. [22:23] Those are like, here it or even worse, apply. [22:28] And, this goes out to all the sellers of of sponsorships. [22:33] I'm not applying. [22:35] I'm bringing the money, I'm investing. [22:37] We talked about investment, we talked about paying, etc.. [22:40] So what I absolutely hate is apply for that. [22:43] I mean, that doesn't make sense at all. [22:46] And I want to be part of it. [22:47] What I don't want is here. Yeah. [22:50] Take the form, write something into it. [22:53] Commit to to whatever rules. [22:57] I don't like that. [22:58] And and this is and as we are spending a lot on these events [23:01] and in comparison to our revenue, and I travel to all of them, [23:04] I have to feel comfortable there. [23:06] So I don't want to go to events that I don't like. [23:08] And, if I see these, yeah, these emails, [23:13] I just don't answer or ask myself who who told you to do that? [23:17] Who told you to try to get a sponsor that way? [23:20] That doesn't work at all. [23:22] I mean, we are a small company. [23:24] Yeah, a very small company in WordPress. [23:26] Yeah. And but still, [23:29] I don't want to be treated like that, especially, [23:32] especially if I bring a lot of money, if I have to send people [23:35] around the globe, etc., etc.. [23:37] So to all those people who want to create an event or to have, [23:41] have to sell sponsorships, please offer something that is viable. [23:46] Yeah, I want to buy it. [23:48] I want to feel good when I buy it. [23:50] And that is not happening at all. [23:52] Yeah, that that is absolutely not happening as of [23:56] today, I think. [23:58] I think what you both said, makes it also important to, [24:03] to maybe distinguish between partners and sponsors in some way, [24:07] or at the very least, like set expectations straight, [24:10] because I think Raquel is a little bit in between. [24:13] Like like what you just said, like, what if WordCamp and CloudFest had a baby? [24:18] They will be names or responders or whatever. [24:22] But I feel I think, what if if you if you go to the [24:25] to the old fashioned WordCamps you are meant to be a sponsor, right. [24:29] So that's like [24:31] you box and you give back and whatever. [24:33] And and I can understand [24:34] like I kind of understand from what, what what the angle is. [24:38] And it is not a real partnership [24:40] CloudFest is a real partnership which goes both ways. [24:44] So if, if Mark and I, if we were signing a contract for CloudFest [24:49] we both have, obligations. [24:52] We we both have benefits that we are expecting and, [24:56] we are working together, and, and I think that that we can say [24:59] we did that for, for the past years, like we were both working towards a goal [25:03] that is benefiting the organizer. [25:07] And, the partner, I think of PressConf is the same. [25:11] So you're looking to, to find a way to for sponsors [25:15] and obviously also the attendees to benefit [25:18] and that you are setting the expectations straight as well. [25:22] And I think that is again [25:24] what, WordCamps have been missing when they started growing. [25:27] So coming from a, hey, can you please help us organize events [25:31] so the community can learn? [25:32] And thank you for doing that [25:34] and giving us 500 bucks for a one day event where the community can learn [25:38] to give us 75,000 for an event that is that is a huge gap. [25:43] And the expectations and obligations, have never been set [25:48] very differently from from the start of those events. [25:52] And that's that's why [25:53] I like to make a difference between a sponsorship and a partnership. [25:57] Yeah. And [25:59] what also really went well this year at [26:02] what was business and the summit, the presentations, the quality of of [26:06] presentation is really getting better and better and better. [26:09] And this is what I like about PressConf. [26:11] Carole you should really attend PressConf. [26:13] I want to know I'm I got I have so much more [26:18] this year like honestly like I was sooo jelly [26:22] presentations are the quality of the presentations, [26:25] the things that that you can learn in a presentation like that. [26:28] I mean, people like Pam Gabler, Brant Weaver, Katie Keith. [26:33] Wonderful. [26:34] Yeah. [26:34] So, Eden CEOs and other people can learn a lot [26:37] because everyone treats this company absolutely different. [26:40] And the quality is, is is great at other events. [26:45] It's it's just not to be very honest. Yeah. [26:47] Some people don't belong on the stage, as simple as that. [26:52] And for others they should practice that because that is performance [26:56] and that is entertaining. [26:57] And from my point of view, that should be different. [26:59] And and I see that at PressConf. [27:02] the last two years, the presentations I mean, awesome. [27:05] Yeah. [27:06] And the same thing is happening as, as far as I see it, [27:09] a business, an agency day. [27:12] And that's helps a lot because a lot of people told me, [27:14] yeah, this is something that I can use. [27:15] This is something I can do, I can learn from that, etc., etc.. [27:18] Yeah, that's all business. And that was wonderful. [27:23] One question I [27:24] wanted to ask, because we were we were talking a lot [27:27] about like the expectations and what you can offer to, to sponsors. [27:31] I think one challenge that every event organizer is that [27:35] usually you need to sponsors first, sometimes [27:38] even before the agenda or even the concept can be can be finalized. [27:43] And I take it this is a huge challenge. [27:45] So, I would love to hear from Raquel and Carole how you how you deal with that, [27:51] how to you how do you talk and sell your event to sponsors [27:55] when maybe not everything is finalized yet? [28:00] Not easy. [28:02] That's the best of it. [28:04] For me, this is my business. [28:07] PressConf. [28:08] under the my business Wonderland Curious under that umbrella. [28:11] And and so it's all on me. [28:14] I think that's a huge, [28:19] step up, if not a few steps up going into this [28:23] was that I had already built up clout in the WordPress community [28:27] in my target market was WordPress business of WordPress, [28:30] and I'd already done so much groundwork ahead of time [28:33] to let everyone know, hey, I'm bringing PressNomics back and and did a lot. [28:37] So then when the announcement came, which was the Monday of WordCamp U.S 2024, [28:45] it was right. It was that it was the Monday before. [28:47] All that, like people already knew and were ready to go. [28:51] And one thing really cool about version one was [28:54] that it really was just a lot of podcasts. [28:58] A lot of people that knew me and launching a sponsorship program. [29:03] And it was, you know, something that WordPress had been missing so much [29:08] that at the beginning that the sponsors just came in, I barely had to do much. [29:14] This year was not that way. [29:16] This year was like version two. [29:18] Coincidentally, 2026 became the year that [29:21] every sponsor ever decided that we're not sponsoring events anymore. [29:25] And, you know, it was just a lot harder. [29:27] And so really, what we had to do differently this year was [29:31] make sure that we proved, and obviously we had the, [29:34] the analytics from last year to send to all the sponsors, but even more [29:38] so this year was increasing the C-suite and the founders that came. [29:43] So we did a lot of outreach to C-suite and founders [29:47] to see what it would take to get them to come to PressConf. [29:51] And then that was what really was able to sell our sponsorships this year. [29:57] I can imagine [29:58] that it's even more difficult for an event like PressConf [30:01] where the main focus is not like lead generation, but it's really more [30:05] than networking and being in the room together with all these, [30:08] these other C-level, people from the, from the industry. [30:12] So I can imagine that puts it even more difficult [30:15] because it's kind of difficult to put that into numbers. [30:18] Right? Yeah. [30:20] And that's the hard part, is targeting sponsors at the same time, [30:24] targeting attendees like Carole was talking about earlier, like when I, [30:29] I very much look at PressConf. [30:32] as my own personal love letter to the community [30:35] and to the, to the web, you know, to technology. [30:41] And, and I think times feel like I want everyone to grow personally. [30:46] I want them to be inspired by these talks because I'll fight anybody. [30:51] We will do better in our businesses [30:54] when we are personally fulfilled, when our cups are filled. [30:57] And I can't sell that, so I can't tell a sponsor, [31:01] you're all going to feel good return, you know what I mean? [31:03] Like, so it's it's the truth. [31:05] Yes, it is 100%. [31:07] But but and then once you experience it then, then [31:10] you want to come back, you know, because and there's brand new sponsors this year [31:14] and afterward that came up to me in like hosting companies and they're like, [31:19] you could just see they're bringing or like what just happened. [31:22] And I'm like, yes, that's and it's not because I, you know, for me, [31:26] I think this is a struggle with me is I'm not a dollar signs girl, you know it. [31:31] But because I really believe that an event like this could change the world. [31:35] And so that's what I want to see. [31:37] I want to see people, hold on. [31:40] Or almost in a way, like sneak in, sneak it in, you know? [31:45] But but you can't. [31:46] It has to be a sneak. [31:48] It can't be the big thing. [31:50] The big thing has, at the end of the day, to be business, to be networking, [31:54] to be that you're when they get there, they're going to be rubbing shoulders [31:57] with other CEOs, with other founders, and that there's potential for magic. [32:03] So yes. No really legion. [32:05] But but partnership potentials [32:08] and definitely some maybe aqua hires even [32:11] but even more so collaboration and even more so to me. [32:15] I believe trusted relationships. [32:17] Now that you you have like some C-suite that now have a friend [32:20] they could go to and vent to each other, we're we're going to make [32:24] everything better. [32:25] We're going to make our communities better. We're going [32:27] to make our technologies better because we have trusted relationships. [32:30] It's really hard to find trusted relationships today. [32:33] So I will do what it takes. [32:35] I will I will make it as business as possible, get us to be able to have those. [32:39] So thank you, man. [32:45] I actually think I have [32:46] a very similar approach, like, I am trying, with everything [32:52] I'm doing to make it clear to, to to my partner in the conversation, [32:58] that everything is, is about trust. [33:02] And I think that also my [33:06] that I do have a reputation that I am being very honest. [33:09] And also when I am building a, [33:14] a partnership, I want a partnership. [33:17] So it doesn't it's not [33:19] the goal is not to have it for this specific contract. [33:23] So if I'm if I'm working on a partnership, I want a partner to be there [33:28] because I believe the partners investment and the partners present [33:31] that event will be successful so that the next year [33:35] when I call them or when I email them, that they will have been waiting for it. [33:40] And then, of course, I'm going to come back because I loved it. [33:42] And you cannot do that if you are [33:45] selling partners something they don't need. [33:49] So, I also had conversations like, this is [33:52] this is maybe even more true or, [33:56] yeah, at least I have had more experience when it comes to that [33:59] with the Hackathon, because CloudFest Hackathon isn't the right fit [34:02] for every company out there that is, involved in CloudFest. [34:09] And sometimes, they heard about a Hackathon and it's success and they, [34:13] they get redirected towards me via the CloudFest sales team. [34:18] And then I get into a call with them, and I am I'm trying to find out, [34:21] what do you need, what do you want? And then I'm like, [34:24] after ten minutes, I know already is not the right fit for them. [34:26] Why would I sell it to them? [34:28] So I, I want to and then and then, you know, maybe next year [34:32] that's another opportunity like the like the WP Business and Agency Summit. [34:35] And then I'm like hey [34:36] we had a conversation, remember, about the hackathon. [34:39] It wasn't the right fit for you. [34:40] But I have something even better for you this year or next year. [34:44] And so I think this is very important, to me for everything that I'm doing. [34:49] Because [34:51] if this is about working with an event [34:54] or working as a project manager for a company in this industry, [34:58] I am only of value for the clients that I'm working with. [35:02] If my personal brand is strong and I would never do anything [35:06] to harm my personal brand [35:10] for for a gig that is limited in times [35:13] and that that that most importantly includes selling, [35:18] selling stuff [35:19] to partners that they don't need or wouldn't benefit from. [35:23] And, yeah, I think that is how I am [35:25] approaching sales. [35:28] And it has it has proven me incredibly successful [35:32] because I, I really I haven't been in a situation [35:37] where I have been struggling finding partners or sponsors. Yes. [35:41] And I was expecting that [35:43] for this edition of CloudFest for us, to be honest, because [35:47] there have been so many companies in this industry struggling [35:49] and then firing people and going smaller with investments. [35:53] So I was prepared to experience that, but [35:56] I didn't, and I feel incredibly grateful, but also incredibly, [36:01] incredibly proud that I didn't have to deal with that. [36:04] And, yeah. [36:05] So it also so I'm, I'm, I also had [36:08] to learn over time that I can say that I'm proud of myself. [36:12] So yeah, I think I did a good job leading towards the crisis [36:16] so that I didn't have to to struggle with finding partners. [36:21] I think one one thing that we haven't mentioned so far that [36:23] both for show event formats have in common, is that they are both built around [36:28] a very clearly defined target group and ICP. [36:32] Mark, This is something that you often not advocate for, [36:35] when it comes to product companies, that is really key that [36:39] do you really understand your your target group and your ICPs. [36:43] So it's audience definition from your point of view, also key [36:46] to making sponsorships and events and channel work. [36:52] I mean, [36:52] everyone is not a strategy, as we all know. [36:56] And I'm sponsoring the Hackathon [37:00] and I'm also hanging around the PressConf. [37:03] totally different events. [37:05] I like them both [37:08] because they both have a target group. [37:09] Yeah, it's not that I [37:11] don't want to hang around at WordCamps, because they are all the developers [37:15] and people who don't think like me because I'm a business guy. [37:17] And that's not the reason. [37:18] The thing is, I don't know how to behave. [37:21] The area at the hackathon, I have my team, I have Jessica, Anne-Mieke etc. [37:26] and I get that vibe, and that's very interesting. [37:29] And, and I can talk to very different people. [37:32] And at PressConf. [37:34] yeah, this is basically the C-suite. [37:36] This is the people I talk to all day. [37:39] And for me, it is very, very important that I know what's going [37:43] on, that I know who I can talk to or I need to talk to how I prepare for that, [37:47] what the vibe would be, etc.. [37:48] Because, if you have a clear ICP, everybody knows what's going on. [37:53] We talked a lot about trust. [37:55] Yeah, especially at PressConf. [37:57] You know, what's going on. [37:59] What happens there stays there. [38:00] So you talk very openly. [38:02] The things that have been presented are so, [38:06] so not public. [38:08] You shouldn't talk about them in public. [38:10] But it's it's possible because the target group, everybody knows what's going on. [38:14] Everybody has trust in each other and everybody knows the yeah. [38:18] The rules. [38:20] And, you you are both absolutely right. [38:24] You're both brands. Yeah. [38:26] I know what I'm getting when I talk to Carole or Raquel. [38:29] And that's a fine thing. [38:32] I know what they deliver. [38:34] I know what they plan, and and this is something that I can buy. [38:38] And this is a defined ICP, a defined target group, and I can easily check. [38:43] Okay, I'm part of the target group. That's good for me. [38:45] I should go there and not not just for business reasons. [38:48] Sometimes I just want to hang around. [38:49] Yeah, but it's a product [38:51] that has to be buyable and a sponsorship is a product an event. [38:55] Attendance is a product. [38:56] And downloading something is a product too. Yeah. [38:58] And also a presentation on stage is a product. [39:00] And that's all viable. And that's very important. [39:02] I can do that very easy. [39:03] I absolutely know that. [39:05] I will join PressConf. [39:06] next year if it's in a sunny state and, absolutely know that I will [39:10] join, CloudFest and hackathon next year, but I'm not so sure [39:14] what what else I want to join because I just don't know what's going on. [39:18] Yeah. [39:19] And if I, if I may, I just wanted to [39:22] to add a little something because I don't want to, [39:25] to give anyone the impression that, [39:28] I personally wouldn't like WordCamp so whatsoever. [39:31] And this is one thing that I that is very dear to my heart [39:35] that I want to mention [39:36] is that there was a development in the right direction that I, that I saw, [39:41] and it was basically I saw it and some of some of you mentioned it [39:46] already with, I think it was you, Sandra, when you said showcase day. [39:49] Yeah. And important. [39:51] So the first WordCamp US in Portland not a second but first. [39:56] And I had a feeling when I was there like the whole thing [40:00] and especially compared to the other WordCamps in the WordCamps US [40:04] is that I have visited that it was going into the, into, into the right direction, [40:08] and to me it was the best WordCamp US I have, attended until until then. [40:14] And I really thought the organizers were doing a fantastic job. [40:18] Unfortunately, at the very last moments of the conference, [40:22] it all got overshadowed by something else. [40:26] And, I felt really sorry for the organizers who did a fantastic job. [40:31] And I mean, Raquel and I, we know what it is [40:35] when you're pouring your heart into an event, [40:37] and I cannot even begin to fathom and imagine how it must have felt [40:41] seeing all that, like, yeah, overshadowed and destroyed in the very last hour. [40:46] But I loved the showcase day. [40:49] I also love that that they were giving sponsors [40:52] much more opportunities to present what they were doing. [40:54] I saw, in the same year, WordCamp Asia, [40:59] going a little above and beyond, like giving sponsors the opportunities. [41:05] And like, I don't know what they called it. [41:09] But before the closing remarks, all the sponsors from a certain level, [41:13] they could come on stage and they got five minutes to pitch [41:15] what they were doing or selling to the audience. [41:18] And some of them were really doing a fantastic job. [41:20] Like, I remember that event from Bluehost, like smashing a wrap [41:24] for like I was like, oh my God, like, this is absolutely hilarious. [41:28] And it was so much fun. [41:29] So that was so great to see. [41:32] So that there was there was a movement [41:37] and yeah, I will be at WordCamp Europe, [41:40] and next month and I am looking forward to it [41:42] because I love hanging out with the people. [41:45] I'm not going there for any business reasons myself. [41:47] I'm really just going there because I'm combining it [41:49] with a road trip, and I'm going to have fun with my friends, [41:52] and I'm really looking forward to seeing, [41:54] if I can find a little bit of that spirit back [41:58] because, there's enough room for all of us, right? [42:02] I would love to see the the flagship events turning into something, [42:08] a little bit more commercial, commercial, business oriented to [42:12] to actually give everyone inside the, the, the WordPress [42:16] ecosphere the opportunity to, to connect with the, the, the business world. [42:21] Because not everyone can come to CloudFest, everyone. [42:24] will be able to attend. PressConf. [42:26] And you know what? [42:27] WordPress has the mission to democratize publishing. [42:30] And I think event organizers [42:33] should have the freedom to democratize opportunities. [42:36] And if you are being left out from the business conversations [42:42] because you cannot show up at the right places, [42:46] then this this isn't creating equal opportunities. [42:50] And I think that the, the, the, the WordPress Foundation and the Wordpress [42:54] community should a little bit more think in that direction. [42:58] So that was my many sense about this here, here, here, here. [43:05] So I have to fully agree, because I was so happy [43:08] when I first read about the showcase day, because from from my point of view, it's [43:11] a perfect combination of having a possibility, a stage [43:15] for focus on the sponsors, but not not not not only, [43:18] but for companies to show what is possible [43:21] with WordPress and with the products and with their services. [43:25] And at the same time, these are not product demos, these are showcases. [43:28] So it also has the learning effect, which is a main part of of WordCamp. [43:33] So people can learn what is actually possible with WordPress [43:37] and how to do that. [43:38] So I would love to see that going on and moving forward. [43:41] Maybe also at the WordCamp Europe For example. [43:47] One thing I wanted to ask you, because, Raquel, [43:50] you mentioned before that you did a lot of outreach for the sponsors. [43:54] I know for a fact, Carole, that you also did a lot of outreach, [43:58] but not only to to sponsors, but you also personally or, not you in person. [44:04] But the the event, personally invited agencies to come there because I think [44:09] one of the goals of the WordPress Agency Summit was to really have, [44:13] have agencies attend, this is a new event format. [44:17] So can you share a little bit about what the experience have been? [44:21] Do you think it is a good way to make sure that you not only market events, [44:25] but you also personally invite the people that you want to have at such an event? [44:32] Yeah. [44:32] I believe that, we were one of [44:36] very few conferences that were actually doing that. [44:39] So and I think it makes a huge difference if you are talking to someone [44:43] that that can actually, show their passion [44:49] they are putting into the event [44:50] and what the actual goals are, and you're not seeing it in an email [44:54] that nowadays 80% or 9% are written by AI and you don't have the feeling [44:59] that you are personally targeted. [45:03] I think it makes a huge difference. [45:04] And then we have we are partners, a board, and then you are part of it. [45:09] The team. Greyd. [45:10] To reach out to, [45:13] to agencies that have maybe never heard of CloudFest before that, [45:17] maybe you have heard of it, but never considered actually coming. [45:20] And so we we set our goals [45:23] pretty high like we wanted to yeah. [45:27] To increase, attendance from I think we were at 300, 400 when the event [45:34] was formally called the WP day, and we wanted to grow it to 800, [45:39] and we wanted half of it to be agencies and, yeah. [45:43] So we couldn't have done that without going these, [45:47] these new routes and reaching out to them personally and explaining to them, [45:51] why should you be there and what is the advantage. [45:54] And adding a VIP ticket and, making sure that they understand [46:00] that it is a different format and, yeah, that was super valuable. [46:03] And we and you and so I got the numbers. [46:07] We had, I think it was 1155 attendees. So [46:12] it was it was crazy, like, [46:16] so we, we, we just, had. [46:18] Yeah, more than one then, then tripled the attendees. [46:20] We had with WP day, and we had, agency [46:24] attendees, we had posters, we had software as a service. [46:28] We had cyber security companies. [46:30] So we had so many different actors that are in that, that are able [46:35] to do business or improve each other's businesses, [46:39] in such an interesting way. [46:42] And so there's already a ton, [46:46] that, that, that we achieved at first attempt, [46:49] but also there's a ton we learned and we heard [46:52] and that we are still collecting in terms of feedback, [46:54] where my mind is already going crazy with all the ideas [46:57] on how we could improve this, because this was our first attempt, right? [47:01] And it was, you know, it was really successful. [47:03] But there's just so much more we can build on it. [47:06] And, yeah, I'm really curious to to where we can, [47:10] we can bring this new or maybe next year, not new, but [47:15] I feel like it's addition part of CloudFest. [47:19] And what we can, we can grow it into. [47:22] And I think it is also important that you [47:25] that you become, that you will have a clear vision of [47:28] where do you want to have because CloudFest gives you all the opportunities. [47:31] Right. [47:32] And that's all for us, is also about [47:35] bigger, better, more. [47:38] So while I think that I would enjoy PressConf. [47:42] so much because of the intimate atmosphere, [47:46] that is never what what CloudFest is going to be. [47:49] But I would love that as an attendee personally, [47:51] -she's applying for a sponsor ticket, Raquel, - Yeah, [47:55] I heard under that and that is that is what makes it so interesting right? [47:59] I, I would, I would personally I would love to to do especially after [48:04] CloudFest like to be at a conference that is much more intimate. [48:08] And if you're looking for that, that will never be CloudFest. [48:10] And if you are looking for [48:12] to come back with 5000 leads, that's never going to be PressConf. [48:16] And if you're looking to to invest €75,000 somewhere and have a huge, [48:21] reasonable investment, that's never going to be WordCamp flagship event. [48:25] So I think there's there's there's so much room for all of us. [48:29] And you know what I love about this group here we are so intertwined [48:34] today as we are speaking as Raquel was an MC at CloudFest [48:38] and attending CloudFest [48:39] Mark is now part of the advisory board for For CloudFest US. [48:43] I will hopefully be a PressConf. next year. [48:46] So there's so much that that we are doing together and we can [48:50] well, we can learn from each other where we can improve what we doing. [48:53] And yeah, and that is actually the spirit of WordPress, [48:57] where it's not all about competition and it's about like growing together. [49:02] That is also true for event. [49:03] That's at least the way I feel. [49:06] Yeah, and [49:07] I can I also would love to to hear your thoughts on that. [49:10] Yeah. [49:12] Well, so Carole's point it's ironic because like, [49:15] I am an extroverted extrovert, I love big crowds. [49:19] I love being on stage [49:20] and love Cloud Fest, and that's just not the product I created. [49:24] It just makes me laugh. [49:25] And, Erin Campbell told me at this most recent press conference [49:30] that it's an introverts dream because it's small and you don't get overwhelmed. [49:34] And I'm like, me, the extremes of extrovert. [49:38] I created the Introverts Dream. [49:40] That is funny to me. [49:42] You got the you got the event with the alphas of the alphas. [49:45] And he thinks that it's for introverted people... [49:48] Okay, you probably feels comfy around that, but if you have enough. [49:52] But yeah, I think that it's it was different this year. [49:57] Like part of it I think is just genuinely caring. [50:01] And so for me, when I targeted agencies, because I really, [50:06] you know, there's I'm concerned I'm concerned that agencies, [50:10] a lot of them especially who were attracted to WordPress, [50:14] a lot of them are in is since mom and pops, a lot of them are like [50:18] older Xers, even, in in age, you know, and maybe even boomers [50:23] and and I don't mean to be ageist, but just when you get that persona [50:27] and where we're going with AI and it's moving [50:30] so fast, I can't think of a time ever when we [50:34] I mean, except for maybe a newborn baby, you know, we get that, that, that, [50:38] analogy of the baby's growing right before your eyes, [50:43] you know, it's it's that's how AI it's moving. [50:46] It's moving so incredibly fast. [50:48] And if we don't do something about it at ease in agencies, we're going to die. [50:53] And so that was sort of my message this year with when we targeted agencies. [50:57] I mean, PressConf, the general attendee [51:02] very much is agencies, you know, and also product companies [51:06] aside from the C-suite, you know, and founders of these companies. [51:10] But we really wanted to see agencies come and grow and learn because they can. [51:14] I absolutely believe agencies can be successful [51:17] and will still be relevant because everyone's afraid [51:19] that they won't be anymore, but they can't if they don't make choices. [51:24] And so that that was one of the big the big reasons I had for Reach out [51:28] this year was genuine care and wanting to see people survive. [51:33] For us, where we're going. [51:37] And I have to say, I really, [51:39] really liked, the, the, the where we're going right now. [51:43] Or are you saying that there really is [51:45] a place it's not a do we need WordCamps or these other events? [51:49] It's really like there really is a place for all three of them. [51:53] And I think that was maybe one of the biggest issues, [51:57] I think, at least for, for WordCamps, is that since there weren't so many [52:01] alternatives, the expectation was kind of it had to be the event [52:06] that serves everybody, and it serves the commercial goals [52:10] and the community goals and all that. [52:11] And maybe some part of that is not just at least and 100% compatible. [52:16] And it's just also just not fair to expect one event [52:20] to cater all the needs of everybody in the, in the community. [52:23] So I really love that we now have different formats [52:27] like PressConf for like you mentioned, these are also very, very [52:32] they are both business. [52:33] They're more business focused but are also very different events. [52:36] And there's a place for all of them. [52:38] At least that's what I see. [52:42] Yeah. [52:42] From, from the attendance possibly. [52:44] But from, from sponsorship involvement there, [52:47] I think there will be a lot of competition in the future because budgets are tight [52:52] and both of you are very successful in managing these events. [52:56] And you were both able to to create a brand. [52:58] But, a lot of new events are coming up. [53:02] I, I hear a lot about, new events, new planned [53:07] events everywhere in the world, but we all compete for the same, sponsors. [53:12] We're not competing for the same audience because there are agencies in Europe [53:16] and there are agencies in Germany or, in, in the US, and, [53:20] only, only the large agencies are traveling from continent to continent. [53:24] But, on the sponsorship level, I think this will be hard. [53:28] And in the end, what I also foresee is that speakers, [53:32] it's going to be hard because in the past, speakers was about not getting money [53:36] and applying for WordCamp, but in the future, the best speakers [53:42] they they will be hard to get in the future, [53:44] especially if you want to have the C-levels. [53:46] And at a PressConf you have those people and they don't have a lot of time, [53:50] so they can't, dance on every wedding, as we say in Germany. [53:54] So from a sponsorship perspective, [53:57] I don't think it's, it's it's too easy to, to get them to your event. [54:01] Yeah. [54:01] You have to be in what I see in WordPress is [54:05] you have to do it early. [54:06] I mean, in the end, the big enterprise is planning the budgets [54:10] at the end of this year for the next year. [54:12] And then in February, [54:13] some somebody contacts me and asks me, can you sponsor that event in April? [54:17] Hey, come on, can you please do your job? [54:21] I already said yes to to 3 or 4 companies. [54:24] So I think I think that is so [54:29] what you said is when I, I'm, I mean, I can 100% result [54:32] to that, as a company and know you're planning a budget, [54:35] but as an event organizer, just like this other side of it. [54:38] Well, we mentioned it before. [54:39] Like, sometimes you can only start selling and you know what to sell. [54:44] And so this is like there's two sides to it. [54:48] And I think that's like, yeah, there has to be a balance. [54:51] But yeah, if you are too late and if the budget has already been spent, [54:55] then you're too late and the budget has already been spent. [54:57] So either you change, on how you approached a specific, [55:01] specific, potential sponsor next year or you don't. [55:04] So that's, that's completely understandable. [55:07] I, I'm not sure if if we are saying, [55:11] with, PressConf, CloudFest and WordCamps [55:15] to have some examples within the WordPress industry, [55:18] I'm not sure if they are going to cannibalize each other. [55:21] I am much more worried about other industry events [55:26] that are maybe coming out, popping up, like around AI, where [55:30] agencies specifically, I mean, [55:34] that's, that's more from the attendee side of things, but they will [55:38] they will much they will have much better conferences [55:42] when they want to learn something [55:44] and improve what they're doing and their services and products. [55:47] And we much better conferences than all three of them, I'm afraid. [55:51] And from the partnership sponsorship [55:54] side of things probably as well. [55:58] So I'm seeing a lot of initiatives already [56:01] popping up, like on the smaller scale within WordPress. [56:05] So, so for an example, like within Germany, [56:08] there's a hosting company, which I'm also connected with. [56:11] I think I mentioned already, to you more like host press. [56:14] They are organizing their own business event in September. [56:17] They asked me if I could come aboard and moderate it. [56:20] So I, I really applaud this like smaller initiatives, [56:24] but there will be much bigger ones as well. [56:26] And they will be coming outside the targeted industry [56:31] and they will be interesting [56:33] and true for everyone, not just the WordPress industry. [56:36] And I think that is a much bigger threat when you talk about [56:40] competing for, for investment, for partnerships and sponsorships. [56:44] Okay, yeah. [56:45] Just even in our industry, you know, people are breaking away from WordCamps [56:50] and having Sum comp, CMM comp at CMS comp. [56:55] And then there's [56:58] other, independent events like, like Check Out [57:01] Summit at all and, and and at the end of the day all are welcome. [57:05] But also at the end of the day, [57:07] we're all we're going to get event fatigue, you know. [57:10] And so I, I think about that a lot and like okay what what does this mean. [57:14] Because I'm here to stay one. [57:18] You know so like my why you know like my why is so solid. [57:22] And I will challenge everybody there to make sure you know what your why is [57:26] because if you don't, then you're going to waste your own time and your own money. [57:31] And that we all that. [57:33] That's just my own personal challenge. [57:35] But to your point, to about outside of that is these companies [57:40] come with a lot more money as well, and they could create [57:43] any event that they want and just throw their own money at it. [57:46] And so we're we're entering into a time where I think just also because of [57:51] AI like I'm very aware of how much we're going to desire in person more and more. [57:56] But I'm not the only one who's aware of that. [57:58] You know, a lot of people are aware of that. [58:00] And and being, you know, going getting to the blue waters first is important. [58:06] But at the same time, if I'm not a big enough [58:09] shark, you know, can, you know, then I could get eaten myself. [58:12] So and and I know shark, I don't even like to think of myself that way, [58:16] but is is something we can't ignore. [58:19] We have to be aware of [58:21] and and what good plans look like. [58:23] So if, if both of you know that I know the the next iteration of your events are [58:28] far, far away. [58:29] But we want to know how how are you guys going to react on that? [58:32] How are you going to shore up your brand, your ICP, etc.? [58:35] What what do the plans look like? [58:38] For me personally, [58:41] I'm expanding, so there's a rumor I keep telling everyone [58:45] there's rumor PressConf in Europe, coming soon... [58:49] - Hearing that for the first time. [58:51] - That that, - Why do I not believe you? [58:55] Yeah. [58:57] And he's German. [58:58] Next act. Wow. Okay. [59:00] Yeah. [59:01] And then, the other part [59:04] is, is for me is to expand past WordPress. [59:09] I, like I said at the beginning, WordPress will always be near [59:11] and dear to my heart, but, it's not my only friend. [59:16] So, seeing seeing where that that's just the beginning and seeing [59:20] where that goes. So, [59:21] that's the plan so far. [59:23] A broad plan [59:25] we're looking forward to seeing. [59:26] Hey, I like that. [59:28] Sounds like a lot of opportunities to finally attend a press conference, right? [59:32] Yes, for a year. [59:34] So I won't have any excuse anymore. [59:37] No call. [59:39] Carole, You know, [59:40] also had, like, a couple of weeks of, break after, the CloudFest event. [59:45] So what are you working on at the moment? [59:47] Oh, at the moment, I am still enjoying, [59:50] sunrise recovery. We. [59:54] I, I really enjoy it. [59:57] But I will have, actually, so tomorrow, the day [60:01] after the recording of this podcast, at least I will have some conversations [60:06] with the CloudFest team again. [60:07] So there is some ideas of maybe increasing [60:11] my work within CloudFest. [60:14] But other than that, I am I am open to anything events related [60:19] because I, I that's that's where my passion lies as well. [60:24] And I'm not really looking into like working with, with [60:29] companies that are not into the organization at the moment. [60:33] This is what I did previously. [60:34] And I just like, I know I want to focus more on events in the future. [60:39] So that's what I'm doing. [60:40] And, so my plan is to have some negotiations over the next weeks and then start [60:47] in August, September with what's next. [60:50] So I'm enjoying, well-deserved. [60:52] Like, I'm getting like, I was just about to say it was well-deserved. [60:58] But you need to stop that now, okay? [61:02] Is that an offer? [61:04] No, but I what I can tell [61:06] everybody is, if you want to plan and plan on event, [61:10] you you need people like like Carole or Raquel [61:13] because this is a totally different business. [61:15] This is a network business. [61:17] This is a brand business. [61:18] You can't just have an event just because you want to have it. [61:23] You need to do it because you are that person. [61:25] Yeah. [61:25] So if anybody's interested in planning an event, [61:29] please, contact contact both of them. [61:33] They're both very capable. [61:35] Raquel, It's not that. [61:38] It's not just the events that you do, with your company. [61:41] There are other things that you are organizing. [61:43] Tell us about, these things too, please. [61:46] The three part to Wonderland Curious are tech events, group travel. [61:53] And, why am I losing memory now, Sancho Parties. [61:57] So? So I'm for hire for any sort of event that maybe a company wants to do, [62:02] but they don't have an events team and they could contract, that and then. [62:08] Then group travel. [62:09] So there's also a plan for, a, a getaway, [62:13] a retreat, at this point to, to Iceland. [62:18] That is also and this is. Yes. [62:21] For, this is that I, I've talked with Mendel like we. [62:25] Yeah. That it's cold. [62:27] It's cold and she knows. [62:29] Yes, I know, but but it's it's also nice fun. [62:33] Yes, yes. [62:34] I mean, a lot of this, my company stemmed from doing [62:38] that, that event with, with, Mendel in 2018. [62:42] And, and that was part of the seed that planted for me [62:46] to start my own business again. [62:47] Oh, cool. [62:47] But I plan to do that maybe two times a year. [62:51] And that is just strictly to hang out with all of us and unplug [62:57] and and and I call those the shower moments, you know, [63:00] when you're in the shower. Same reason [63:01] we have Wonder Day at PressConf that last day where we just have fun. [63:05] It's like, I love those moments where we could just be with ourself in nature. [63:09] I just love I love the grounding in nature because we could come up [63:13] with some of the most amazing ideas and we all need that. [63:16] And sometimes I we need to be forced into it. [63:19] And I am very much that sort of person. [63:21] So that is coming up. [63:23] And then ax events like confess [63:26] or like a flagship Word Camp, I call them Sancho parties. [63:30] In Spanish, Sancho means boy on the side. [63:32] So it's a side party and yeah, they anytime a company, [63:37] especially ones that don't have big events, teams, they want to have a. [63:41] Oh I did one for her. - Yeah I've heard. - Really. - Yeah. [63:44] I don't use what's, what's what's right there. [63:47] Yeah. [63:48] I didn't know there was a called a Sancho party and you're offering. [63:50] Is is so interesting I, I haveconnected the dots. [63:54] -And this is really to be honest, [63:57] this is really helpful because I mean from from Munich to Portland. [64:03] Yeah. [64:03] That, that's, that's a bit. [64:05] And, with a small team, you're not able to [64:09] to prepare a party on another continent. [64:11] That's just too much. [64:12] I mean, obviously you can reserve, some tables at the restaurant, etc., [64:15] but to have a, a party and once you have it nice, you need help. [64:20] Yeah. And that was very helpful. [64:21] And as, as far as I can remember, this was a really good party. [64:25] I wouldn't even, limited to small teams. [64:28] I mean, don't underestimate how much it takes to organize a good event. [64:33] So not I mean, I would have, I would've would have hired help for that. [64:39] Even if the team would have been much bigger because I just. I'm. [64:42] I'm from the event industry myself, and I know how much work is in there [64:45] and how much it takes. [64:46] And also, not just like time and resources to spend every [64:50] but like Mark said before, you need to have this event person [64:54] who just lifts this event part and you know that you can't replace it [64:59] by just, [64:59] putting some people off your company and tell them, yeah, can you arrange an event? [65:03] It doesn't work like that. [65:05] And somebody [65:06] loves it to just create such magic at the event. So. [65:09] So yeah, it sounds like it sounds like like wonderful offers. [65:14] Like, I didn't know the other two parts of it until now. [65:17] And I think those are very smart and very, very, very good additions. [65:22] And I hope that a lot of people are listening to this podcast because site [65:26] events are, especially when it comes to WordCamps are so important [65:29] because that's the only place where you can actually discuss business, [65:32] and you better make sure that you have an awesome site event. [65:34] So if you're listening to this, talk to people who know what they doing. [65:39] -Raquel. [65:39] - And I couldn't be more excited to hear that. [65:43] You want to start organizing these group travels [65:47] because for the audience that doesn't know, like, as Raquel [65:50] and I, we both participated in, in such a group travel [65:54] within the nerd techie WordPress industry, but in different years, right? [66:00] Yeah. And I enjoyed it so much. [66:02] And I think nowadays with everything that is going on, [66:07] in our industry, in society and everything [66:12] evolves at lightning speed. [66:14] So when, when I did this trip, we were already in the [66:17] in living in a society where you needed to perform [66:21] and now you still need to perform because everything is in crisis. [66:24] So you need to perform more and you need to perform faster, [66:27] and you need to compete with AI. [66:28] And it has become ten times [66:32] more important than it already was when I did that trip. [66:36] And I think that you're going to be incredibly successful with that, [66:39] because I bet there's [66:42] a ton of people out there in the industry that would jump aboard immediately [66:47] should they have, the resources to do so. [66:52] So luck with that. So [66:54] thank you guys. [66:55] We could go on for, for at least another hour. [66:58] I really enjoyed this conversation, but we are already, [67:01] over an hour, so I think it's a good time to wrap up. [67:05] I think this were also, great closing remarks. [67:08] So I will, I won't add a lot to that other than saying thank you very much [67:12] to the three of you for taking the time, and being into this conversation, [67:16] I'm very much looking forward, to the events, in the future. [67:20] I think the next one is right around corner with WordCamp Europe. [67:22] We probably meet each other there and also meet a lot of people [67:26] who are listening and watching today. [67:28] So very much looking forward to that. [67:30] Raquel, Mark and Carole, thank you so much for being here. [67:34] And what's pleasure. [67:35] Yeah. [67:35] And I also want to I also want to say thank you. [67:38] I'm I'm not attending to often in this Greyd Conversations, but I wanted [67:42] to have both of you on Greyd Conversations because you do a great job. [67:46] And that is very, very important for our industry. [67:50] And, so thank you from my side as well. [67:54] Thank you for having us. [67:57] Bye, thank you.  ## Highlights - Extrapolates from limited sponsor experience to broader industry trends - Note: 🔍 Fallacy: Hasty Generalization #fallacy/hasty-generalization