How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education

How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education 🔗 **Source:** [How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psQvXygYv88) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [courses, wordpress-education, community, ai-integration] > author: Matt Medeiros > source: The WP Minute > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psQvXygYv88 > date created: 2025-01-13 08:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research WordPress AI guardrails implementation — security/performance considerations #wordpress #ai - [H2] Evaluate scanfully features for content health monitoring — broken links, form validation #tools #monitoring - [H3] Build community relationships before seeking amplification — reciprocal value exchange #community #devrel ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Within WP Newsletter](https://withinwp.com) - [Scanfully Monitoring](https://scanfully.com) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Matt Medeiros interviews Remkus de Vries about course creation, AI integration in WordPress, and community-driven content - **Why it matters**: Addresses gaps in foundational WordPress education beyond page builder tutorials - **Key stakeholders**: WordPress educators, freelancers, agencies, and community contributors - **Risks and tradeoffs**: AI without proper guardrails could create performance/security issues; over-commercialized approach alienates community - **Bottom line**: Educational content should focus on fundamentals and community relationships rather than just monetization ## 📖 Main Content The conversation explores how WordPress education has evolved, particularly around performance optimization and AI integration. Remkus emphasizes the need for foundational education that goes beyond page builder tutorials, focusing on understanding WordPress internals, hosting architecture, and proper development practices. Key themes include the importance of community relationships in the WordPress ecosystem, where reciprocal value exchange matters more than purely transactional approaches. The discussion also covers the potential and pitfalls of AI integration in WordPress, stressing the critical need for guardrails to prevent security and performance issues. Both creators advocate for educational content that builds deeper understanding rather than surface-level tutorials, addressing gaps in technical knowledge that prevent common problems rather than just solving them after they occur. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and State of the Word Discussion - Key idea: Setting context for course creation and WordPress education gaps - Evidence: "We were saying things like, 'Hey, man. We launched a course. You launched a course. Maybe there's some shared knowledge here'" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=135) — [H2] State of the Word Reactions - Key idea: Mixed feelings about WordPress direction, positive on AI integration - Evidence: "I missed that atmosphere a little bit in this one... what I did enjoy is the solid focus on AI" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=330) — [H3] WordPress Performance Health Assessment - Key idea: WordPress core performance has improved significantly in recent versions - Evidence: "For the last five, six versions of WordPress they have all seen significant improvements in terms of internal performance handling" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=525) — [H2] AI Integration Opportunities and Risks - Key idea: AI's potential lies in agentic approaches rather than simple chat interfaces - Evidence: "In an ideal world we would have an AI that looks at the whole site specific pages and then goes look I see that this is happening but we can optimize this" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=740) — [H1] Critical Need for AI Guardrails - Key idea: AI integrations require extremely tight security and performance controls - Evidence: "We need guard rails for anything and everything AI touches... They need to be flipping really tight" #### ⏱️ [16:10](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=970) — [H2] Scanfully's Database Architecture Challenges - Key idea: High-volume sites forced major infrastructure rebuild and multi-tenant approach - Evidence: "We realized we're running into data structure issues... sites are in the like 10 to 15 posts per day" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=1350) — [H3] Content Health Monitoring Beyond Performance - Key idea: Comprehensive site health includes forms, e-commerce flows, and user journey validation - Evidence: "Is there a product that I can see? Can I add that product to a cart? Does that cart actually show the product?" #### ⏱️ [28:15](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=1695) — [H1] Course Creation Philosophy - Foundational vs Tool-Specific - Key idea: Focus on WordPress fundamentals rather than specific page builder tutorials - Evidence: "There's a particular layer... 60 70% for instance is Elementor driven or Bricks... what I think is missing is talking about the tool so that is WordPress itself" #### ⏱️ [33:45](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=2025) — [H2] Performance Education: Building vs Fixing - Key idea: Teach proper building practices to prevent performance problems rather than fixing them afterward - Evidence: "Caching doesn't solve a performance problem. It hides really well... if you're not aware, then you know at the end you just add Nitropack or WP Rocket" #### ⏱️ [38:20](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=2300) — [H3] Community-Driven Learning Approach - Key idea: Building membership community focused on craft improvement and WordPress internals - Evidence: "WordPress has a new release, like we now have with 6.9, I'm going to focus on explaining all the new things inside of that new version" #### ⏱️ [42:10](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=2530) — [H2] Content Creator Business Models and Education Gaps - Key idea: Page builder content is commercially driven but creates educational gaps in fundamentals - Evidence: "Most of them figured out at one point that it's the page builders that make it the easiest to connect revenue to" #### ⏱️ [46:30](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=2790) — [H1] Community Relationships vs Transactional Approaches - Key idea: WordPress community values reciprocal relationships over purely commercial interactions - Evidence: "I have decided to have a black and white line between what I accept... if there's a commercial value attached to it on your end, then I think I'm in my rights to have that as a minimum request" #### ⏱️ [52:45](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=3165) — [H2] Building Credit Through Community Contribution - Key idea: Long-term community involvement creates valuable relationships and credibility - Evidence: "For the 15 years that I spent organizing meetups setting up word camps, starting Word Camp Europe... I've never cashed in from that. Never once" #### ⏱️ [58:20](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=3500) — [H3] Newcomer Challenges in WordPress Ecosystem - Key idea: New market entrants often bypass community layer and don't understand open-source culture - Evidence: "They approach it from entirely bypassing the open-source layer, the giving back layer, the helping out layer, the understanding the community layer" ## 📚 References - [Within WP Newsletter](https://withinwp.com) - [Scanfully Site Monitoring](https://scanfully.com) - [Make WordPress Fast Course](https://withinwp.com/courses) - [WP Minute Community](https://wpminute.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WordPress education has gaps in foundational knowledge, with too much focus on page builder tutorials and not enough on core platform understanding - AI integration in WordPress shows promise but requires careful implementation with strong guardrails to prevent security and performance issues - Building successful WordPress businesses requires understanding and participating in the community culture rather than taking purely transactional approaches ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Education Gets Real: Beyond Page Builders to Platform Fundamentals** The WordPress education landscape is evolving! Remkus de Vries shared insights on creating courses that fill critical gaps in WordPress knowledge - moving beyond page builder tutorials to cover foundational concepts like performance optimization, hosting architecture, and WordPress internals. **Key Takeaway**: While page builder content dominates for commercial reasons, there's huge value in understanding WordPress fundamentals that prevent problems rather than just fixing them. **Practical Applications**: - Focus on site health monitoring (forms, e-commerce flows, content validation) - Implement proper performance practices during development, not after - Build community relationships through reciprocal value exchange **WordPress-Specific Benefits**: - Better understanding of new APIs and features in each release - Improved site performance and reliability - Stronger foundation for AI integration with proper guardrails Resources: [Within WP Newsletter](https://withinwp.com), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer education: Create foundational WordPress courses covering internals, APIs, and performance principles - Community engagement: Build reciprocal relationships before seeking content amplification - Developer experience: Document AI integration best practices with security guardrails #### WordPress - Core: Continue performance improvements across versions while maintaining backward compatibility - Core AI: Establish guardrails framework for AI integrations to prevent security/performance issues - Training: Develop curriculum covering WordPress fundamentals beyond page builder usage - Community: Educate newcomers on open-source contribution culture and relationship-building - Documentation: Create guides for proper development practices that prevent common performance problems - Accessibility: Ensure AI-generated content meets WCAG standards #### Community - Maintainers: Share knowledge about fundamental WordPress concepts through educational content - Contributors: Mentor newcomers in understanding community culture and reciprocal value - Ecosystem: Balance commercial interests with educational quality and community values ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Educational content focusing on WordPress fundamentals creates more sustainable businesses than page builder tutorials - AI integration without proper guardrails will create significant security and performance problems for WordPress sites - Community relationships built through reciprocal value exchange generate better long-term business outcomes than purely transactional approaches - Performance problems are better prevented through proper development practices than solved through caching plugins after the fact ### 📊 Methodology - Analyze performance metrics of sites built with foundational practices vs. quick-fix approaches - Survey WordPress community for educational content preferences and gaps - Track AI integration incidents and correlate with presence/absence of guardrails ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress core better support AI integrations while maintaining security and performance? - What specific foundational knowledge gaps most need addressing in WordPress education? - How can newcomers be better onboarded into WordPress community culture? ### 🔮 Future Research - Impact of AI-generated content on WordPress site performance and security - Effectiveness of different WordPress education approaches on student outcomes - Community relationship patterns and their correlation with business success ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Shift educational focus from tool-specific to foundational knowledge - **Security**: Implement strict guardrails for AI integrations to prevent vulnerabilities - **Education**: Create pathways for learning WordPress internals and proper development practices - **Community**: Establish clear guidance for newcomers on relationship-building vs. transactional approaches ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Discussion format with clear topic transitions - Improve: Add performance diagrams, architecture visualizations, community relationship maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast discussion available - Improve: Create chapter markers for key topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear explanations and analogies throughout - Improve: Add glossary of technical terms and concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: References to hands-on course materials - Improve: Include step-by-step exercises and practical labs ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure and topic organization - Improve: Add time-based navigation landmarks #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Add speaker identification and audio descriptions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Focus on open-source community values - Improve: Include diverse perspectives on education approaches #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, respectful discussion - Improve: Define technical jargon for broader accessibility ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Community contribution leads to credibility and relationships - Causal reasoning: Poor foundational knowledge causes performance problems - Analogical strength: AI guardrails compared to security best practices #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Some reliance on experience-based claims without data - False dichotomy: Page builders vs. fundamentals could be complementary ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No concerning patterns detected - Discussion maintains respectful tone throughout - Criticism focuses on practices rather than individuals ## 🎯 Conclusion The conversation highlights critical gaps in WordPress education, emphasizing the need for foundational knowledge over tool-specific tutorials. Both creators advocate for community-driven approaches that build relationships through reciprocal value rather than purely transactional interactions. **Next steps for practitioners**: Focus on understanding WordPress internals, implement proper performance practices during development, and invest in community relationships before seeking amplification. **Broader implications**: As AI integration accelerates, the WordPress community must balance innovation with security through proper guardrails while maintaining the open-source culture that drives long-term success. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] WordPress performance improves significantly in recent versions > [!quote] [How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88) by [[Remkus de Vries]] via [[WP Minute]]. Published 2025-01-13. Accessed 2025-01-13. > "For the last five, six versions of WordPress they have all seen significant improvements in terms of internal performance handling" Core WordPress development team continues optimizing query handling, caching layers, and internal resource management across recent releases. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=330#H1) #xref #performance ID:rw_wp_perf_001 ### [H2] AI requires strict guardrails in WordPress integrations > [!quote] [How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88) > "We need guard rails for anything and everything AI touches... They need to be flipping really tight" Security and performance controls essential for AI implementations to prevent vulnerabilities and resource abuse. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88?t=740#H2) #xref #ai #security ID:rw_ai_guard_001 ### [H3] WordPress education gaps exist in foundational knowledge > [!quote] [How Courses Fill the Gaps in WordPress Education](https://youtu.be/psQvXygYv88) > "What I think is missing is talking about the tool so that is WordPress itself with all its internal stuff" Page builder tutorials dominate education content while WordPress core concepts and proper development practices remain under-addressed. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/ps --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Remiss, welcome to the WP Minute. We [00:02] were chatting in the green room. Well, [00:04] we were chatting over Twitter DMs. Um, [00:06] and we were saying things like, "Hey, [00:09] man. We I launched a course. You [00:11] launched a course. Maybe there's some [00:14] shared knowledge here uh that we could [00:17] talk about and and share with the [00:19] audience." So, that's part of the goal [00:21] today. And a part of the goal is just [00:22] catching up, seeing what you're up to as [00:24] we wind out 2025. [00:26] um how business is going, how the [00:28] plug-in stuff is going, how the [00:30] performance stuff is going, and uh what [00:32] you look forward to in 2026. [00:36] Um let me kick this off with just [00:39] saying, how did you feel after watching [00:41] the state of the word? Did you watch the [00:43] state of the word? What how did you come [00:45] away from that? [00:46] >> Not live. Um but I watched the recording [00:51] uh clicked through it. I think some uh [00:54] so I I I've been to the state of the [00:56] word in uh when when it was held in [00:58] Madrid. Um I very much enjoyed that [01:02] atmosphere that um the stuff that was [01:05] shared and and the vision that was that [01:07] was uh demonstrated in the the [01:09] conversations that were presented. Um I [01:12] missed that a little bit in this one. Um [01:16] obviously we live in a little bit of a [01:17] different world now. [01:19] Um, I think the message is probably [01:21] tailored to that, maybe a little bit [01:23] more cautious. Um, what I did like, what [01:27] I did enjoy is the solid focus on AI. I [01:30] think it's inescapable. [01:33] Uh, [01:35] yeah, AI, AI is here and there's many [01:39] different ways of you can how you can [01:41] implement AI into the WordPress project. [01:43] And I really like the [01:46] the the different facets that it's [01:49] touching currently. Uh and I I I [01:51] specifically use the word facet because [01:53] I think uh uh it's very much uh um you [01:57] know a diamond has a lot of facets but [01:59] they need to be polished before it [02:01] becomes a diamond. And uh I think we're [02:03] in that phase. there's um there's a [02:06] great opportunity [02:08] with what it's doing inside of [02:10] WordPress, the actual software, as well [02:11] as the project and the the possibilities [02:14] of um yeah, just quality enhancement as [02:18] a whole on from from everything that's [02:20] happening on the ticketing side of [02:21] things uh track [02:24] to [02:26] what's actually inside of WordPress and [02:27] there's a whole bunch of stuff in [02:28] between. So, I I like the the hints that [02:30] were dropped in that direction. Uh I [02:32] like that very much. [02:34] Yeah. [02:34] >> As to the projection of the future, [02:37] >> that's that's hard to [02:40] >> Yeah. [02:40] >> I in my in my piece that I wrote about [02:43] uh the uh sort of just recapping the [02:45] state of the word uh you know I like [02:48] with most I think releases and what [02:51] we've seen with WordPress over the last [02:52] couple of years is a lot of building [02:54] blocks to like the next thing that we're [02:57] getting to like no pun intended. It's [02:58] like building up that sort of plumbing [03:00] that's going to enhance things. I I am [03:02] getting a little tired of saying that [03:03] though like we do want to see something [03:06] that we can you know touch and play with [03:08] and be like aha this is this is the new [03:11] WordPress now but I also understand like [03:13] these are the you know this is the the [03:15] baby steps to get there. I was actually [03:17] interviewing um our mutual friend Miriam [03:19] Schwab this morning from Elementor and [03:22] uh one of the criticisms I had in my [03:24] piece was like it just didn't look and [03:26] feel like a uh like a state of the word. [03:29] Like I look at state of the word like an [03:31] Apple day. [03:32] >> Yeah. [03:33] >> And it didn't feel that way. But then [03:35] she told me that they weren't actually [03:37] allowed to take pictures of anything [03:39] inside the venue. And she said that [03:41] inside the venue it was actually really [03:42] beautiful and it was like a a lot of [03:44] like nice [03:45] >> That's weird. felt really nice inside. I [03:47] was like, "Oh, well, had I known that, [03:49] uh, maybe I wouldn't have criticized it [03:51] as much." But your thoughts on the Apple [03:53] day of of a state of the word? [03:56] >> Um, yeah, I think what what I said is, [03:59] um, is very much uh um leaning into [04:03] that. Like there's I don't know [04:07] it that that part of the this the the [04:10] event didn't gel with me too much. like [04:12] I'm I I I think I'm still lacking an [04:15] opinion proper. Um [04:18] u it's probably also a little bit of [04:20] frustration. Um [04:23] Project Gutenberg, which has given us [04:24] the block editor, the site editor, um [04:27] and then now phase three is supposed to [04:28] bring collaboration and all that sort of [04:30] stuff. I like the site editor. I like I [04:33] love the block editor. I have nothing [04:35] with the um the collaboration mode and [04:38] all of that. And I had hoped we'd [04:40] finally go in a little bit into the [04:42] actual um enhancement of WordPress. So [04:46] that is a new dashboard and for me [04:48] that's an entirely uh native [04:52] multilingual solution which we've been [04:54] waiting for for you know ever since I [04:58] started using WordPress. Like it's just [04:59] I'm just I'm a little bummed that's [05:01] still not part of what I'm seeing or [05:03] hearing. Um, so maybe my my my my [05:07] glasses were a little tinted in that [05:09] direction that I go like, yeah, why am I [05:11] not still not hearing anything in that [05:12] direction? I love the AI part. I love [05:14] the other stuff, the little things. I [05:16] love the integrations of all the various [05:18] uh APIs that we see now. They're doing [05:20] wonderful things. Uh, I think we have a [05:22] bright future ahead still yet, why is [05:25] why why aren't we not doing that? Um, [05:27] other than that, I don't have much [05:29] opinion on the the state of the world as [05:31] a whole. you primarily and you can you [05:33] can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think [05:35] like myself and I think many others when [05:38] they hear your name and they think of [05:41] what you do, a lot of it comes back to [05:43] like the performance of WordPress like [05:45] making per making WordPress perform [05:48] really well. Do you feel like it's in a [05:50] healthy state out of the box? [05:52] >> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I would [05:56] say for the last uh and don't quote me [05:59] on the exact number but let's let's call [06:00] it five six versions of WordPress they [06:03] have all seen significant improvements [06:06] in terms of internal performance [06:08] handling um we've been measuring the [06:11] impact of a new version as a as a [06:14] standalone thing but on the if you just [06:17] look at the query side of things [06:20] the optimizations there the caching [06:22] layers how things are now are being [06:25] optimized and uh shout out to Johnny [06:27] Harris for being one of the people who [06:29] was spending a lot of time in these [06:31] types of uh improvements. I really love [06:33] that part and that's the thing that um [06:37] a normal user will never see because [06:40] that's fully internally inside of [06:42] WordPress. But it means uh a whole bunch [06:44] of scenarios that used to cost just a [06:46] lot of resources or show signs of [06:49] slowness is just now improving and [06:51] improving significantly. Certainly, if [06:53] you look over what's happened over the [06:55] last 2, three years, um [06:58] I like the the the fact that uh block [07:01] edit uh block themes are out of the box [07:04] faster now than a classic theme is. I [07:07] like that principle. I like that they're [07:08] working on it. I like that they have [07:09] that as a focus. Um yeah, so on the [07:13] performance side of things, I think [07:14] we're going in the right direction. [07:15] maybe a little bit less uh fast as we [07:19] could be going in terms of what's [07:21] happened over the last over over this [07:22] year particularly, but um I'm a fan [07:25] nonetheless. [07:27] >> You do have a course called uh the [07:29] complete blueprint for blazing fast [07:31] WordPress sites, make WordPress fast. [07:33] We're going to we're definitely going to [07:34] get to that [07:35] >> uh in a moment. I'm curious how we see [07:39] or how you see um WordPress evolving [07:45] you know, with so much demand and [07:47] interest in AI, I'm in the middle. Let [07:50] me let me frame it this way. With AI, I [07:53] well, maybe I'm slightly more on the [07:55] positive side. Like, I still It's one of [07:57] these things where it's like I just [07:59] maybe I don't trust this technology as [08:01] much as the hype is, but I'm definitely [08:04] leaning more on the I was squarely in [08:06] the middle, but now I'm a little bit [08:07] more positive. But I'm curious like how [08:10] does this impact how does this impact [08:12] performance? How does this impact the [08:13] adoption of WordPress? If suddenly [08:15] WordPress, if suddenly somebody can [08:17] connect their WordPress site to their [08:19] favorite chatbot uh of the month, um [08:23] what happens when they start going [08:24] haywire with, hey, you know, chat GPT, [08:27] go and make these 10,00 pages really [08:29] quick, make these images and load them [08:30] all in. Like what is that going to have [08:32] as a domino effect? So, I'm just curious [08:34] like positive outlook with all of this [08:37] AI in WordPress from you. What are your [08:39] thoughts? [08:41] Um I I I think so but I think it's good [08:43] to take a little step back and determine [08:46] uh what what is AI in this particular [08:48] context. So uh most people look at AI on [08:51] the generative side of things and uh as [08:55] as helpful as it can be in a great many [08:57] way of generating stuff whether that's [08:59] code or content or whatever um it it is [09:04] it is the far the furthest thing away [09:07] from artificial intelligence because and [09:10] I mean in reality it's the stupidest [09:12] name considering there's zero [09:14] intelligence uh and it's absolutely not [09:16] artificial. [09:18] So if you apply what it does to a [09:22] particular field whether that's coding [09:23] specific or a niche within coding uh or [09:27] optimizing or performance any any of [09:29] those things you need more of the [09:32] agentic approach than the I'm in a chat [09:34] box doing something. So agentic meaning [09:38] there's there's models inside the AI [09:41] being built on the fly doing something [09:44] very specific and optimizing and [09:46] measuring. In an ideal world we would [09:50] have an AI that looks at the whole site [09:53] specific pages and then goes look I see [09:55] that this is happening but we can [09:57] optimize this this and that. in a way [09:59] whatever you're doing in your lighthouse [10:02] um your core web vital uh reports that [10:06] sort of gives you an idea of what's [10:07] going on and if that feedback loop from [10:09] that report went back to the AI and then [10:11] the AI would then fix it and you know [10:14] that became a thing then your question [10:16] would be fully valid in terms of uh is [10:19] this a worry of some like do we need to [10:21] worry about where this is going right [10:23] now this is just too fragmented to to be [10:26] worried about um there's elements of [10:29] what you can do. The what I think I [10:32] think the the actually the most [10:34] important thing currently that AI allows [10:35] you to do is the debugging part of the [10:37] performance problem. So you can tell its [10:40] report, you can tell and you can share [10:42] the screenshot and you can say this is [10:43] what it looks like and you you can give [10:45] it the HTML, you can give it the URL and [10:47] you can sort of combine those things [10:49] into one and say look I'm I'm [10:50] flabbergasted. I do not understand what [10:52] imps in this context and why is it not [10:54] good enough and then AI will exactly [10:57] tell you in other language than the help [10:59] documentation says look this is what you [11:01] need to do and the image is okay where [11:03] it is but it needs to be loaded first [11:05] because this and this and that reason so [11:09] I think on the whole I'm positive where [11:11] it is currently uh I'm super positive [11:14] when I just start dreaming about what [11:17] those types of integrations can look [11:18] like in a year or two or three Um but [11:21] we're not there yet. Um in terms of [11:24] looking on the negative side of AI, [11:27] look um we need guard rails for anything [11:30] and everything AI touches. So as long as [11:32] we're aware that when we're building [11:33] integrations on the ai side of things [11:35] that are supposed to help us, we need [11:37] those guard rails to be I was about to [11:40] curse, but uh flipping flipping really [11:43] tight. They need to be flipping tight. [11:46] >> Um and that that for me is is [11:48] essentially where the where the tension [11:50] is. So, if we're building stuff, [11:51] wonderful, but we need to be so careful [11:54] to have our guard rails in place as [11:56] we're doing these things. Um, we saw a [11:58] very fun um at the the CloudFest [12:02] hackathon in Germany uh this year, we [12:05] saw a fun project where um we [12:08] essentially had an AI talking through uh [12:11] a a WP CLI interface. So, you gave it [12:13] commands and it did stuff with your [12:15] WordPress site. And that was wonderful [12:16] to see what it could do. But it was very [12:18] very clear uh that you know that was a [12:23] hack that was a hackathon product and uh [12:26] it had zero to no guardrails. [12:29] >> Yeah. [12:29] >> Meaning if I wanted to do something bad [12:31] I would create a a plugin on the fly [12:33] that would allow me access to anything [12:35] and everywhere all the time. Hide this. [12:37] Do that. I mean I the command line just [12:40] allows me to do that if I'm giving that [12:42] particular AI integration power to [12:44] create a plug-in and activate it and do [12:47] all of those things. [12:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. Miriam used the same exact [12:50] keyword. She used guardrails when they [12:52] were talking when she was talking about [12:54] what they do at Elementor with AI and of [12:56] course [clears throat] they have a lot [12:57] of AI in their product. They have a [12:59] standalone AI product itself. Oh, we [13:01] should talk about guardrails and yeah, I [13:04] mean one of the things that I'm really [13:05] concerned about um like I you know [13:08] hearing about abilities API and all that [13:10] stuff and I'm like oh this is this is [13:11] really cool. we can do all these other [13:13] things and then it's like oh wait a [13:14] minute that means that people can do [13:16] anything they want and I can't imagine a [13:19] and they will and you're gonna have bad [13:22] actors but you're going to have people [13:23] who are who simply just don't know and I [13:25] think that opens up a whole new world of [13:28] support and for somebody like yourself [13:30] who is like helping people with their [13:31] site performance if all of a sudden they [13:34] turn to you and they go my my site is [13:36] loading slow and then you turn to them [13:38] you say well what did you do I said well [13:40] all I did was talk to chatpt and [13:41] suddenly Now my site's loading slow. And [13:43] I think those kinds of things open up to [13:46] areas that neither one of us or probably [13:49] people listening to this have ever [13:50] experienced before because now there's [13:52] like this AI middle person who can just [13:54] do things and if that user doesn't know [13:56] what's happening, we're going to be [13:58] like, "Well, man, what do you want me to [13:59] do?" So [14:03] I'm um [14:05] I'm co-founder of Scanfully and one of [14:07] the things that we do, we monitor for [14:09] site health things. So part of that [14:12] monitoring is an activity log. So a [14:14] WordPress activity log not living inside [14:16] of WordPress but outside. So it's [14:17] actually we have better control over the [14:19] data and all that sort of stuff. One of [14:21] the things that we're looking at is when [14:23] we get to that point where the MCP start [14:25] becoming real, meaning the the [14:27] connection layer between your WordPress [14:29] or even specifically Woo Commerce and [14:32] somebody from the outside giving it some [14:33] prompts. Um there's going to be changes [14:36] and we need to start monitoring for [14:38] those changes as well because those are [14:40] impactful in terms of uh what it might [14:44] damage, what it might hurt. Uh it might [14:46] also bring good, but we don't know. Um [14:49] there's just we're aware that this is a [14:51] thing that we're going to have to build [14:53] for at some point. But uh but yeah, [14:55] that's that's a real risk if uh if the [14:57] guard drills are not in place and [14:59] especially on the elementary side of [15:00] things where it's mostly on the [15:02] generative side of things. Yeah. Yeah. [15:05] There's there there there's there's more [15:08] than a few deep breaths you need to take [15:09] before we say absolutely 100% go. [15:13] Uh you gave me a good segue into talking [15:16] about scamfully and yes we will start [15:19] talking about courses in a moment. Um, [15:21] but I think I saw a tweet. I was trying [15:23] to quick it try to quickly find it uh to [15:25] reference it. And I'm going to [15:27] paraphrase here, but I think you said [15:28] like two steps forward, one step back or [15:30] something like that. Or one step [15:31] forward, two steps back. Yeah. [15:33] [laughter] [15:34] Where where are we with with Scanfully? [15:37] Because I remember chatting about [15:38] Scanfully with you, you know, many years [15:41] ago and um like hearing all your ideas [15:44] about it and stuff like that. Is it [15:45] still on pace? like how do you feel [15:48] about it as as a business? [15:50] >> It's it's on pace in the sense that the [15:53] pace is for our for us to determine. Um [15:56] we've had opportunities uh where we [15:58] could accept uh uh investments. We've [16:01] said absolutely not. That's not our [16:03] priority currently because we don't know [16:06] how large the thing is going to have to [16:08] be and and we're not looking to [16:11] fasttrack stuff. We're we want to do [16:14] this good. And one of those conclusions [16:16] of wanting to do it good, uh, we reached [16:18] that in the beginning of this year where [16:19] we where we realized we had a we have a [16:21] few sites in there that are just having [16:23] hundreds and thousands of posts and just [16:26] on the activity log side of things, [16:28] that's wild. What's happening? They they [16:30] are producing a few of those sites are [16:32] in the like 10 to 15 post per day. Uh, [16:36] multiple editors constantly working [16:38] across different articles correcting [16:39] each other. And if you just look on the [16:41] activity side of things or what that [16:42] means, that's a lot of data. So, we [16:44] realized we're running into data [16:46] structure issues. Um, and that's not to [16:49] me that's not to say that we didn't [16:50] think about this beforehand, but the [16:52] sheer size of these sites just forced us [16:54] to reconsider this way sooner than we [16:56] anticipated. [16:58] Um, the end result of that is we needed [17:00] to rethink our database structure. And [17:02] when we started rethinking our database [17:04] structure, there's a um that the the [17:07] principle of a tenant and a multi-tenant [17:09] uh architecture meant that this was also [17:12] now the good moment to make that switch. [17:14] So uh essentially every single client [17:16] has their own version of a database and [17:18] but then the our layer is the shared and [17:20] you know it gets really technical really [17:23] fast and my co-founder Barry is much [17:25] better in explaining that but [17:28] um it meant that we had about six seven [17:32] months ahead of us of doing a rebuild [17:34] without anybody seeing any changes which [17:36] is frustrating on on a few different [17:38] levels. Um [17:40] >> it feels like WordPress. [17:42] [laughter] Yeah, in a way. Yeah. Yeah. [17:45] But it really was uh probably three [17:48] steps back and one forward eventually. [17:51] So, we are now in a much better place to [17:53] start implementing our features. Um we [17:55] are currently beta testing the broken [17:57] links feature which which we've added [17:59] and the broken links is the first on the [18:03] content help side of things and that's [18:05] really what we build scanfully for. So [18:08] we we're we're we don't have the aim to [18:10] be the performance tracking tool [18:13] and just that we have the aim to [18:15] specifically be the health monitoring [18:18] tool inside of WordPress where [18:20] performance is a part of it. So there's [18:22] some stuff we're doing right now and [18:23] we'll add a few things to it but we're [18:25] not going to do the whole um you know [18:28] rum vision uh as an example of uh of all [18:32] those tracking. So, broken links is what [18:34] we're adding uh currently [18:37] and uh we have a whole variety of of um [18:42] content health related stuff. For [18:44] instance, forms, are they working? Are [18:47] they present? Can you actually send [18:49] them? Is it actually being sent out? Can [18:50] we verify all of those things? Um but [18:53] you can also consider the same type of [18:55] logic happening on the e-commerce side [18:56] of things. Is there a product that I can [18:59] see? Can I add that product to a cart? [19:01] Does that cart actually show the product [19:03] in when I then look at the cart? Is the [19:05] cart then allowing me to go to checkout? [19:07] When I'm at the checkout, can I fill out [19:08] the checkout form? Does it allow me to [19:11] pick a uh payment provider? And when [19:13] I've done all of those things, can I [19:14] then click on the let me see uh if the [19:18] payment provider starts picking up, you [19:19] know, all of these things, you want to [19:21] know that that it works. Uh because, you [19:24] know, your money depends on it. uh these [19:26] types of content health things are where [19:28] we're going to go hard on in 2026. Uh [19:31] again, Broken Links is is in beta [19:33] currently. Um first iteration is there. [19:37] Um but yeah, um that was a that was a [19:41] year of of wanting to do a lot of stuff [19:43] and launching a lot a bunch of stuff, [19:45] but we were just like, yeah, we're just [19:46] going to have to take a few deep breaths [19:49] again and all right, let's let's do this [19:51] database stuff, the boarding stuff. Um [19:54] and um but you know uh Barry my uh my [19:58] co-founder did a wonderful job in um [20:02] understanding the challenges, mapping [20:04] them out, building them, testing them, [20:06] and now we had a database with huge [20:09] sites in there. So we had more bulk data [20:11] to to test things. And um yeah, we [20:14] wrestled through. It's you know, it's [20:16] it's how these things go. You um you [20:18] plan with what you know. and we quickly [20:21] learned we needed to know more to plan [20:23] better. [20:25] >> Do you think this shifted uh before we [20:27] hit record, we were talking about our [20:29] approach to courses [clears throat] um [20:31] which we're going to get to, but uh you [20:34] talked about like, hey, my courses are [20:35] for are going to be for a different type [20:37] of WordPress user. Um do you feel like [20:40] maybe Scanfully has changed its customer [20:43] avatar with all of the more higherend [20:46] stuff that you're doing? [20:48] Not that much just yet. We want to be we [20:51] want to be the choice that is the [20:53] obvious choice for uh the single site [20:55] owner as well. We're for sure so in in [20:58] in Q1 of 2026 we're going to introduce [21:01] an agency planning uh plans sorry not [21:04] planning plans. So meaning we're going [21:06] to think of the companies that are [21:08] servicing other uh sites and want to [21:11] provide these these these um monitoring [21:14] tools [21:15] uh as a package. So [21:18] when we do that, we still want to be [21:21] friendly to those who have one or two [21:22] sites. So it um I don't think the avatar [21:26] has changed too much. Uh I think it's [21:29] [clears throat] [21:30] if if anything we're leaning a little [21:32] harder on the content health side of [21:35] things because uh one of the things we [21:38] did in the interim between you know [21:39] Barry doing most of the rewrites or the [21:42] entire rewrites I should say for the [21:44] database layer all of that uh I had more [21:47] time to think about the the product uh [21:49] in terms of the features [21:51] and when you you know when when you take [21:55] the time to look at these are the things [21:56] that determine what is a healthy [21:58] WordPress site? You kind of land on let [22:01] me let me just uh define that array a [22:04] little wider than I orig originally had [22:06] thought. So um I don't think the avatar [22:08] changed much but I I think there's a [22:11] inside that avatar there's different [22:13] layers the so the more professional ones [22:15] they will see our our offering and go [22:17] like yeah no brainer let me we we need [22:20] that. [22:21] >> Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's talk about [22:23] courses and some of the redirection or [22:25] not redirection but sort of the uh [22:27] addition to value that you've brought to [22:29] within WP. And I'll say the same for the [22:31] WP minute. Like I am always looking for [22:34] extending value to the audience, right? [22:38] To the readers, the readers, the [22:39] listeners, the viewers, and of course um [22:41] the great sponsors that that back our [22:43] stuff. I'm going to read a tweet from [22:45] you uh first. Uh this was on December [22:49] 3rd. in-depth WordPress hosting [22:51] knowledge prevents 80% of fires. Uh the [22:53] WP Minute launched a course that is all [22:57] about understanding how to make the [22:59] right choice for WordPress hosting [23:02] companies. As a freelancer, as an [23:05] agency, it's not like, hey, does your [23:07] hosting plan have 8 GB of memory versus [23:10] the other plan has 16 gigabytes of [23:12] memory. It's all about evaluating, well, [23:15] I guess the health of a hosting company. [23:17] Sure, what features do they have, but [23:19] what does that mean to you and to your [23:21] customers and and how can you scale with [23:23] that? So, it's a unique course, [23:25] completely free. Your course is about [23:28] performance. It's not it's probably not [23:31] meant for the general WordPress user. [23:33] It's probably meant for the freelancer [23:36] and agency owner who wants to make his [23:38] or her client sites more uh performant [23:42] uh versus like out of the box WordPress. [23:44] So paint the picture for us. Why did you [23:48] get into courses and how are you [23:50] approaching it differently? [23:52] >> I I I got into courses because people [23:54] kept asking me to explain the same thing [23:56] over and over again. And uh that's a [23:59] good sign of if they then start working [24:01] with it and they realize, oh right, I I [24:04] hadn't approached it from that uh that [24:07] way. Uh this would make sense. Uh I'm [24:10] thank you. And so I kept getting that a [24:12] few times and um I started thinking [24:15] about how [24:17] uh what direction I wanted to uh push uh [24:20] within WordPress into and courses then [24:23] became the the logical step and and I'm [24:26] aware that there's uh current course [24:29] builders who are [24:32] uh [24:33] kind of done with the way normal courses [24:36] work uh because they're seeing less um [24:40] [clears throat] [24:41] less sales and and a lot of maintenance [24:43] in the courses and and that sort of [24:45] stuff and and and I get it because I I [24:47] think there's a lot of certainly in the [24:49] WordPress uh ecosystem there's a lot of [24:51] course builders who build very specific [24:53] things for very specific solutions with [24:55] very specific version numbers [24:58] and when that changes you need to redo [25:00] the whole thing. Now, when I started [25:03] looking at that and and and you know, [25:04] looking around me to see what everybody [25:06] else was doing, I was like, I I think [25:09] we're missing a particular layer. Um, [25:13] when we were in the green room, I kind [25:14] of hinted to that already when I said to [25:16] you there's there's there's a I think [25:19] the the largest percentage of course [25:22] builders or content creators or [25:24] educators currently in the WordPress [25:26] ecosystem, they focus on one or two main [25:29] tools and then a few on the side. So [25:31] that 60 70% for instance is element [25:34] driven or bricks or [25:37] forms that are part of the 30% and then [25:41] there's a few things fixing the gaps [25:43] here and there and but that's about it [25:45] and I don't mean that in a disrespectful [25:47] way. um there's a place and and time for [25:50] all these types of content um and and [25:53] educational stuff but what I for myself [25:57] concluded as this is what I think is [25:59] missing is talking about the tool so [26:01] that is WordPress itself with all its [26:03] internal uh stuff uh but it's also a [26:07] whole bunch of applications to WordPress [26:10] or uh in my particular case the course [26:13] that I chose as my first course is make [26:15] WordPress fast and the the the whole [26:18] premise of the co of the course is not [26:21] me diving into technical part [26:23] necessarily but making you understand [26:26] all the layers that go into this is how [26:28] you build performance sites. Now spoiler [26:31] alert uh this is also how you build any [26:33] site because it's just a principle of [26:35] how you should be building and uh [26:38] performance is then a logical um [26:40] exponent of that uh exponent what is it [26:44] >> the emphasis [26:45] >> yeah exponent so it you know for me that [26:48] was a logical step to take because I [26:50] like talking about solving problems at [26:52] the root um if you look at design stuff [26:56] uh that you can do in element and and or [26:59] bricks or any of the other tools. Um [27:04] that that that that that doesn't really [27:06] make me excited to be thinking of [27:10] WordPress in that particular fashion. Um [27:15] but if you if we're talking about how to [27:17] build more smarter sites that are built [27:20] from a foundational level correctly, [27:24] that gets me excited because that's that [27:25] stops a whole bunch of problems from [27:27] even happening or for having to solve [27:29] problems. So [27:31] um make WordPress fast is the first one. [27:34] The next one is Cloudflare for [27:35] WordPress. And I approach it from a [27:37] similar level. There's a there's a wide [27:40] array of things you can do on [27:42] Cloudflare's infrastructure that [27:44] benefits your WordPress site. But [27:46] because most people don't really know [27:47] where to start or what it actually does [27:49] or what is even edge caching, um why [27:54] don't I start explaining what that is [27:55] and how you can build for that and how [27:57] you can implement that and all that sort [27:58] of stuff. So I I sort of found myself [28:02] slowly um transitioning into let me look [28:06] at the ecosystem of development [28:10] that brings its own set of tools but [28:13] those are not really covered anywhere. [28:15] So, um I'm I've landed on [28:19] uh I'm starting with a bunch of courses [28:22] uh and I will turn that into a community [28:24] and that community will be full of [28:27] people uh like they're treating their [28:31] craft in the way you should treat your [28:34] craft. You're you're meant to educate [28:36] yourself in becoming better at your [28:38] craft. And you know, for me, it's not [28:42] necessarily that I'm focusing on [28:43] developers only. uh WordPress builders [28:46] just the same agencies just the same [28:48] there's a huge layer that roughly stays [28:51] the same doesn't change that much but [28:53] that you really need to understand so [28:56] how does how does version control [28:58] actually work did you know you have [28:59] options besides the GitHub uh pull [29:02] request methodology there's git flow [29:05] which in in some cases makes more sense [29:07] and there's combinations of those and [29:09] I'd like to more educate on that side of [29:11] things of just building smarter end [29:14] result of what we've built is built more [29:17] smarter. So most of the problems have [29:18] been solved while you're building it [29:21] instead of typically for performance for [29:23] instance people think that when they're [29:24] done building uh all they have to do now [29:26] is slap some caching plug on it and call [29:29] it a day. But you know caching for for [29:32] one uh doesn't solve a performance [29:34] problem. It hides really well. That is l [29:36] literally how caching was invented. it [29:38] was supposed to uh enhance certain [29:41] processes, not necessarily performance [29:44] gain. That was a result of it. But um if [29:47] you're if you're if you're not aware, [29:50] then you know at the at the end of what [29:52] you built, you just add um either [29:54] Nitropac or WP Rocket and you know call [29:56] it a day. Um but the end result is that [29:59] there's people who will visit that site [30:01] that you just optimized and they will [30:04] never see a fast version. And why is [30:05] that? [30:06] First of all, you didn't build for it. [30:08] Second of all, there's a thing called [30:10] cash hit ratio. So, meaning you'd be [30:13] lucky if you get it in the 80s, but in [30:16] some cases, it's even less than 50. Just [30:18] really depends on how you built it, what [30:20] the site is doing, what kind of traffic [30:21] it's seeing, and all that sort of stuff. [30:23] And if you don't know, you don't know. [30:25] So, I'm not I'm not here to blame [30:27] people, but I'm here to facilitate [30:28] people learning there are better options [30:30] in how you build. So [30:33] my membership which within WP will grow [30:36] into will do a whole wide array of um [30:43] facilitating learning and growing in [30:46] knowledge and understanding these types [30:48] of things. So, one of the things I'm [30:50] going to do is do u release parties. [30:54] Meaning, when WordPress has a new [30:56] release, like we now have with 6.9, [30:59] uh I'm going to focus on explaining all [31:02] the new things inside of that new [31:04] version of WordPress that you now have [31:05] to your availability. And that means we [31:07] we touch all the APIs that have been [31:10] introduced. we touch all the APIs that [31:12] have been [31:13] um updated or improved in in any way [31:17] just so you understand what tools you [31:20] have cuz the beauty about open source is [31:23] that it's all there you can see it you [31:26] can play with it but the downside of [31:28] that is [31:30] ain't nobody got time for that like [31:32] where do I start figuring out what I [31:34] need to learn here now um and if you [31:37] read my newsletter uh the within WP [31:39] newsletter [31:40] You can see that that's my focus. I I [31:42] highlight the APIs, the new stuff, the [31:45] new tools that we have to our [31:47] availability. I highlight them all the [31:48] time. I talk about them. I explain why [31:51] you should want to know them and I [31:52] repeat them because it's not like a one [31:55] time mention and then gone. No, no, like [31:57] the abilities API, uh the interactivity [32:01] API, all of them have been mentioned [32:04] numerous times over the past uh six, [32:07] seven months just because I want you to [32:09] understand that these are the things [32:10] that we need to be building on top of. [32:13] >> Yeah. [32:13] >> Very long answer, but that's essentially [32:15] how I see courses. Yeah. I want it's [32:18] it's funny how you you sort of looked at [32:20] like say the greater like YouTube [32:22] creator world and sort of like [32:23] backtracked from that or I mean a little [32:25] bit. Anyway, I I mean I do I do the same [32:28] thing. You and [clears throat] I have [32:28] been creating content for quite some [32:30] time. Um as a content creator, I'm [32:32] interested [32:34] to know like you know I I I don't put [32:38] those folks who strictly focus on like [32:41] page builders and um the different [32:43] courses that they have for that. I mean [32:45] I there's nothing wrong with it. In [32:46] fact, and this is what I'd like to get [32:48] your opinion on from a business [32:50] perspective, like it makes sense because [32:52] there's just a ton of traffic and [32:54] attention um and good payouts uh from [32:58] affiliate side of things. So, like [33:00] naturally, if you sit down and you say, [33:03] I want to monetize a content creation [33:05] business, it's it makes total sense to [33:09] uh migrate in that direction. And I [33:11] don't fault them for it. Um but [33:14] eventually what happens is well we have [33:16] these gaps like you and I are hopefully [33:19] trying to fill with what's the [33:21] fundamental education to keep WordPress [33:24] healthy um and to keep WordPress [33:27] thriving. Not to say they're not doing [33:29] that but like our point of view is [33:32] something of from like a WordPress [33:34] health to steal your phrase a WordPress [33:37] health uh benefit is the way that I see [33:39] it. So your thoughts on like the [33:41] business c or the content creator [33:43] business side of it? [33:45] >> So [33:48] you know if you look at how these [33:50] content creators have grown historically [33:53] uh most of them figured out at one point [33:55] that it's the page builders that make it [33:58] the easiest uh to connect revenue to. uh [34:02] meaning from either earning um um you [34:07] know YouTube uh monetization [34:10] uh affiliates that you can then uh add [34:12] to that um there's a lot of new people [34:15] there who are just dying to understand [34:18] which are the recommended hosting [34:19] companies so on the affiliate side of [34:20] things there's a plenty of options uh [34:23] and I get how that has grown [34:26] um I fully understand that uh so one of [34:31] the things I'm going to go hard on on uh [34:33] 2026. I I was supposed to be doing that [34:36] already, but life happens. But uh I'm [34:39] going to breathe a lot of life into my [34:42] YouTube channel, like a lot lot. And one [34:45] of the things I'm going to do [34:46] differently is I'm not going to go for [34:48] the views. [34:50] I'm going to go for the added value. Uh [34:52] I'm going to go for making uh uh people [34:56] understand that there's topics they [34:58] should have in higher regard. [35:01] um and and essentially drive traffic to [35:04] my uh either my newsletter community or [35:07] courses or the combination. [35:10] So that is my base. I'm and and I've [35:12] consciously made that decision because I [35:15] don't want to do the thing that I see is [35:17] where [35:19] basically all the things that they can [35:21] talk about is the new stuff that's being [35:23] made available uh or the the the very [35:26] long this is how you build a WooCommerce [35:29] site. I get it. It's good. It's [35:31] important. Um, but those kind of miss [35:34] what I think is the the base principle. [35:37] Um, so yeah, I I get how that economy [35:42] works. I I get where that came from. [35:45] Um, I don't think it's very different [35:47] from the early blogging days where that [35:49] was also the same same type of approach [35:51] that drew traffic. Uh, I've I've tried [35:54] to blog more in in the early 2010s. [35:59] uh see if I can get a portion of that uh [36:02] traffic and monetize that and all that, [36:03] but you need to just produce at that [36:06] time even, this is 15 years ago, you [36:08] needed to produce ridiculous amounts of [36:10] content to make that a worthwhile thing. [36:12] So I quickly learned that's that's not [36:15] me. Um so I I I blog regularly on my [36:19] site. I talk about topics that I think [36:21] that are important for you to know or [36:24] and sometimes it's a question that I've [36:26] had with a client as I'm onboarding and [36:28] they ask me this off-hand question. I [36:29] go, "Ah, that's a good one to answer [36:30] because apparently this is not clear." [36:32] Uh so I I just answer the questions that [36:34] I have uh either in my DMs or from [36:37] clients or whatever. And I want to [36:40] educate. I want to help you understand [36:41] there's a better way. And sure, I want [36:43] to monetize that. So ideally I lure you [36:45] into looking at my courses and if you [36:48] find something you like uh hopefully you [36:50] purchase one sure you know I need to [36:52] make money as well but my goal is to [36:55] approach the whole [36:59] market around content differently than [37:03] what you typically see for what a [37:06] typical content creator is doing. I want [37:08] to [37:10] uh figure out how I have this idea. I [37:14] saw a tweet the other day. Here's the [37:16] context. I saw a tweet. I'm I'm trying I [37:18] don't want to out anyone. [37:21] Um because, [clears throat] you know, [37:22] it's and I don't think this I don't [37:24] think either of these folks would even [37:26] would even care really and they'd [37:28] actually be willing to have the [37:29] discussion. But I want to be able to [37:30] formulate I'm going to have a podcast [37:32] episode about this. But um someone from [37:35] Automatic said something about uh a new [37:39] thing coming [snorts] and somebody else [37:41] chimed in with uh a response and they [37:44] said, you know, I've always felt and [37:46] this is a product person. This is [37:47] somebody who has products. He sells [37:49] products, makes products, plugins. And [37:51] he says, you know, I've never felt any [37:53] kind of um connection to automatic. sort [37:56] of paraphrasing here like you know I've [37:57] always felt like I've been pushed away [37:58] from automatic because of X Y and Z and [38:03] like you like you and I have been doing [38:06] this for many many years like the [38:08] content the community stuff and I [38:10] thought to myself hm [38:14] you know that person who says they're [38:16] feeling pushed pushed away from [38:17] automatic and maybe automatic developers [38:19] and core contributors is also sort of [38:21] like they're not helping like me either. [38:26] Like when I've knocked on their door [38:28] before, they're just like, "Yeah, yeah, [38:29] whatever. You're a podcaster. You got [38:31] these crazy ideas. I have nothing to [38:32] do." But we all have [38:35] some way to help one another. Like, help [38:39] me help you. Because if you're feeling [38:41] pushed away as a product person, well, [38:43] guess what? You could come to a podcast [38:45] or a newsletter like Remis and I and [38:48] share your thoughts and share your [38:49] opinions and then we can amplify that [38:52] which might actually affect the top [38:54] right. So we have like this weird [38:56] interconnected community and we can all [38:59] help each other but sometimes I feel [39:01] like we don't help each other. Um like [39:04] with the stuff that you and I are doing [39:06] right now, you're on this podcast, you [39:08] know, amplifying your message. We have [39:10] courses together. Maybe I could say when [39:12] you finish the hosting course now go [39:13] take this performance course uh over [39:15] here with remiss uh within within WP. [39:19] like there are ways that we can help [39:21] each other, but I feel like sometimes we [39:23] don't reach out to each other to help [39:25] each other and I'm curious if you have [39:28] any thoughts on that being in the [39:30] community and and organizing events and [39:32] doing this stuff for so long and do you [39:33] see that as a content creator and be [39:35] like I could help you if you help me a [39:38] little bit like do you have any of that [39:39] feeling? [39:40] >> I do. I do. Um [39:43] I think this this started specifically [39:46] when I uh turned the my newsletter [39:49] attempts into a serious one and um which [39:52] ultimately became uh the within [39:53] WordPress newsletter. Uh that's when [39:56] more people started to reach out to me [39:58] like hey could you fe feature this and I [40:01] go uh so I I well when that started [40:05] happening I had already figured this was [40:07] going to happen because I had seen [40:09] slivers of it already. Um, I I I made a [40:12] conscious decision saying, and I I I [40:15] literally have a um um a canned reply [40:19] that says, uh, something along the lines [40:22] of, I appreciate you reaching out. Um, I [40:25] have decided to have a black and white [40:28] line between what I accept as, hey, can [40:32] you mention this? Uh, in terms of if [40:35] you're new to me, I'd like to have as a [40:38] relationship first. So, as long as [40:41] you're new to me, the easiest way for me [40:43] to develop the relationship is asking [40:44] you to sponsor me to do this. And that [40:47] may sound weird because I'm very likely [40:51] throwing off people and going like, [40:52] "Dude, I'm just asking you to highlight [40:55] this something in your newsletter. It's [40:56] newsletter worthy, so why wouldn't you?" [40:59] But my logic is if it's if there's a [41:01] commercial value attached to it on your [41:04] end, then I think I'm in my rights to [41:06] have that as a minimum request. If it's [41:10] a friend that replies to my newsletter [41:13] that I know for for many many years, [41:16] even I'm much more inclined to already [41:19] see the benefit of the collaboration. [41:21] Uh, and which in in in some cases when [41:24] somebody replies to a newsletter and [41:25] goes like, I saw you mention this, but I [41:27] built this cool neat little tool. Maybe [41:29] maybe that's of interest of your your [41:31] audience as well. That's a very [41:33] different approach to me already because [41:34] there's already a back and forth, right? [41:37] So, I approach that already differently. [41:40] That's on the other side of the black [41:41] and white line for me. Um, [41:45] then there's the layer where I go, [41:47] you're in it to make money, you're in it [41:50] to feed your family, um, if if and when [41:54] you need help, I'm more than happy to u [41:58] amplify your message, but it needs to be [42:00] in balance. And a wonderful example is [42:03] uh is Marco from Portugal who saw me [42:06] tweet about a missing functionality that [42:08] I had inside of WooCommerce. I was [42:09] looking at solutions, didn't find what I [42:11] needed because it was yeah like four or [42:14] five uh different solutions and none of [42:16] them fully captured what I needed and he [42:19] went out of his way uh to create a [42:23] entirely new plug-in that did exactly [42:26] what I needed. Now, for me, that is like [42:30] a no-brainer to amplify his messages. [42:33] And that doesn't mean that I just share [42:35] the plug-in that he created and has uh [42:38] uh you know, he sells that on his [42:40] website. Uh but that also means that [42:43] when I see his content on X now or [42:46] LinkedIn, uh I am more inclined to [42:49] retweet it, repost it, share it because [42:51] that's how this this symbiosis work [42:55] uh works. So if if you don't get that as [42:57] a as a content creator or a a a service [43:01] or product builder, I think you're [43:02] missing out tremendously on the type of [43:06] um credit that you can build up. And I'm [43:10] aware that I'm I'm in this community for [43:12] uh 20 years now, longer, [43:15] that I've had the the benefit of knowing [43:18] a lot of people who are now uh [43:22] visible, let's call it that. uh that I [43:24] have an easy access to certain people at [43:26] whatever uh position in whatever [43:29] WordPress related company. Uh but then I [43:31] also go I think I work for that. I think [43:33] I I like for the 15 years that I spent [43:37] organizing meetups uh setting up word [43:40] camps, starting Word Camp Europe and [43:42] everything that came with that. Uh I've [43:45] never cashed in from that. Never once. [43:48] and I'm no longer currently contributing [43:50] to um a a word camp or a meetup or [43:54] anything like that. Um but I do think I [43:58] still bring that credit that I have that [44:00] came from that. Uh, and I'm not here to [44:02] capitalize on it necessarily, but I do [44:05] do think it's normal to use it in some [44:08] way if that means I have through that [44:09] experience a connection to somebody that [44:11] I can ask a question directly, which [44:13] otherwise would probably be, you know, [44:16] through four or five layers as I just [44:19] knock on the door of some company. So, [44:22] just all of this to say, uh, it needs to [44:27] be a back and forth. There needs to be [44:29] interplay. And I I see too little of [44:32] this happening for from from small from [44:36] indie developers to just larger [44:38] companies who just [44:41] just don't seem to get it. Like why [44:45] aren't you treating it from a symbiotic [44:47] perspective? It doesn't need to be all [44:50] just money connected. It's not because [44:52] it really isn't. I I I feature a whole [44:55] bunch of content in my newsletters that [44:57] is uh that I'm absolutely not paid for. [45:00] And yes, I have sponsors. Yes, I have [45:01] community sponsors. Yes, I have, you [45:04] know, all of that. And um [45:07] every single sponsor that I've had, [45:09] there's a there's a version of an [45:11] agreement and in that agreement says [45:13] that I a minimum well this these are the [45:17] amounts of exposures you get in my [45:19] newsletter in this particular uh time [45:21] frame. I've exceeded them all. I went [45:24] did way more than what's ever been in [45:26] any of those contracts. But it's not so [45:28] much for the contract for me. It's [45:29] because I like your company. Uh there's [45:31] a lot of people that want to sponsor my [45:33] newsletter that I go thanks but no [45:34] thanks. I don't I don't I have no [45:36] interest in that. I say it more [45:38] politely. [45:39] >> Yeah. [laughter] [45:40] You could say go talk to Matt Maderas. [45:41] He'll he'll take [45:44] >> No, I mean I think for some you would [45:46] say the same. You go like Yeah. But no. [45:48] >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, [45:50] I've tried to build that same [45:53] on-ramp for folks who, you know, again, [45:57] like you're not, if you're if you're an [45:59] indie developer, indie plug-in, theme [46:01] author, whatever, you come to me and you [46:02] say, "Hey, could you, you know, feature [46:04] this? Could we feature that?" I first I [46:06] look at it, I go, "How interesting is [46:08] this to the audience?" Like, is this [46:11] something that's really going to like [46:12] remarkable? Or it doesn't have to be [46:14] remarkable. It has to be just something [46:15] different, right? or you have to come at [46:17] me with a different story of how you got [46:19] to to this point and who this thing [46:21] might serve. Um, if I evaluate you and I [46:24] go, well, it looks like you got some [46:27] money here and it looks like this is [46:28] something that you're trying to sell. [46:31] Uh, at minimum, how about you join the [46:34] membership for $79 [46:37] and you get into the Slack group, you [46:39] start chatting with folks. that's a [46:40] great way to support me, you know, and [46:42] then we have like different like [46:43] sponsorship tiers, very affordable stuff [46:46] if I do say so myself. And I try to [46:48] offer them that as this on-ramp, but the [46:50] first thing I try to do is say just join [46:54] the if you're looking for exposure, join [46:56] the Slack and just get involved with the [46:59] community. That's all I'm telling you is [47:01] jump in and talk about yourself. [47:04] [laughter] Yeah, it doesn't necessarily [47:05] mean I'm going to push you out into the [47:07] newsletter, into the YouTube channel, to [47:08] the podcast, but if you get into my [47:10] group, it's a tight-knit community of [47:12] people who care about what's happening [47:13] with WordPress, and that's a great place [47:15] for you to to springboard. And so many [47:17] people just don't jump at that [47:19] opportunity. [47:20] And I don't know why. Oh, I think [47:23] there's I think the why because I see [47:25] the same thing. I I I don't offer it in [47:27] that context, but I I I I see the same [47:29] principle. There is a [47:32] there's a huge layer that is uh an for [47:36] outsiders or newcomers in the WordPress [47:39] uh ecosystem [47:42] that is a a a very they don't fully [47:45] understand the layer. They they know [47:47] it's there kind of and they call it [47:50] community or this is how WordPress [47:52] works, but they don't fully understand [47:54] it because what their what what their [47:56] experience is is that it's a you know [47:58] they're used to this is how we promote [48:01] our stuff and this is how that works. [48:04] the the my my my my previous um [48:10] little rant that I just answered as your [48:12] question is very much driven on uh [48:16] credit meaning [48:18] uh tit for tat quit proquo where you've [48:22] done something for me I do something for [48:23] you there's no there's no need for money [48:25] to exchange hands [48:28] um and that is that whole layer I feel [48:31] is bypassed by certainly by newcomers [48:33] who understand that the market of [48:35] WordPress is so large, they need to be [48:37] here. So, I have a product and now I [48:40] make the product specifically better for [48:41] WordPress and now I I feel like I should [48:43] approach the market and as such I'm [48:45] looking for ways to to amplify my [48:47] message. But they approach it from [48:50] entirely bypassing the the open-source [48:53] layer, the the the giving back layer, [48:55] the helping out layer, the understanding [48:58] the community layer, all of whichever [49:00] way you want to approach it. Um, for me [49:03] it's very much in that direction. For [49:05] me, it's very much about them not fully [49:08] understanding the market. And I don't I [49:11] don't think there's necessarily an [49:12] answer that solves that problem for [49:15] them. Uh, other than us educating them [49:19] more, I guess. I mean, I suppose that's [49:21] that's probably the direction. Um but [49:24] then again if you do not have the [49:27] capability or the willingness to see [49:29] that and you just approach it from let [49:32] me get the clicks [49:34] uh and can we can we sponsor you for the [49:36] clicks then yeah sure you can but it [49:39] it's not making me happy it's not making [49:42] the end client happy the the visitors [49:45] the viewers [49:46] um that's I think it's a tough one to to [49:49] solve. Um, I I I do [clears throat] my [49:52] best. I I I provide when I see this is [49:55] happening, I provide them context, but [49:57] that's because they may be dropping a [49:59] hint of them not understanding. And you [50:02] don't always know if that's the case, [50:04] right? So, if if somebody just doesn't [50:06] understand that uh joining the WP Minute [50:09] just makes a lot of sense from being [50:11] closer to those who care, uh, yeah, I [50:14] think that's a no-brainer. Yeah, you [50:15] know, I I'm trying to think of this and [50:17] I'm I'm probably not going to phrase [50:19] this the right way, but [50:21] and I I I promise this will be the last [50:24] time I say that you and I are alike on [50:26] this because I don't want to continue to [50:28] offend you. Um, but I I I think it's I [50:31] think maybe it's it's I I look at both [50:34] of our our our bodies of work over the x [50:37] amount of years that we've been doing [50:38] this and it's like well speaking for [50:40] myself like I have never I have not [50:43] given up on WordPress. I continue to do [50:47] this day in and day out as a side thing [50:50] um because I I think WordPress is so [50:53] important and I do love the software and [50:55] I do love the community and I just I [50:58] have not given up on it. That's the [50:59] thing that has [51:01] and now I have various iterations of it, [51:04] right? Matt Report, the YouTube channel [51:06] WP Minute, but I have not given up on [51:09] the core mission of supporting the [51:11] people in in the WordPress community and [51:13] and publishing content around that. And [51:16] so many people have and I think like [51:18] folks like you and I we have maybe it's [51:22] because you and I have we're I get I [51:25] don't know the best way to say this like [51:26] we have value in other parts of our life [51:30] where we're not trying to just monetize [51:33] the WordPress thing. I mean you have [51:35] products and courses. I have a full-time [51:38] job at Gravity Forms. Like you know we [51:40] have value in other parts of our life. [51:42] So maybe it's easier for us to do it. [51:46] I'm basically what I'm trying to get at [51:47] is I'm trying to not I'm trying to make [51:49] an excuse for the those folks who come [51:50] in who are like, I just got to make [51:52] money with this thing right now cuz it's [51:53] all I have. Maybe you and I are [51:55] different because we have value in other [51:56] areas of our life. And we don't need to [51:59] to to do this [52:01] >> potentially. I I think that might be a [52:04] component of it. Um, but I also from [52:07] from my experience what I've seen, [52:09] [clears throat] [52:10] excuse me, [52:12] um, I the the layer that doesn't get it [52:16] is the overcommercialized layer. [52:20] >> So they see the money that is inside the [52:23] project. They see uh a very businessy [52:27] approach of uh, oh, I need to be in this [52:29] space because there's just money to be [52:31] grabbed left and right. And uh there's [52:35] nothing wrong with that. I I think uh to [52:37] be perfectly honest, I think as a whole [52:40] the whole of WordPress misses this way [52:44] too much. I don't think we're [52:46] approaching this enough from the [52:47] business perspective as we should, could [52:51] must. [52:53] Um, [52:54] but if you're jumping in nowish and you [52:58] go, um, [53:01] let me let me let me just, uh, yeah, let [53:05] me just force it my way. That's not [53:07] going to work. That's just not how this [53:09] community works. That's not in general [53:11] how open source works. That's [53:12] specifically not how WordPress works. [53:14] And that's specifically not how the core [53:16] of the community works. And you need [53:18] that core to amplify your message [53:21] because that core includes all the [53:23] content creators. It includes the the [53:26] deaf rails at the various companies [53:28] automatic included. That core includes [53:31] um any type of educator that is in or [53:36] right around the edge of what we know as [53:38] the the WordPress um world as a whole. [53:43] And if you're just kind of haphazardly [53:45] diving in because you think this is [53:47] where you need to be financially, [53:49] yeah, you're you're you're skipping over [53:50] a few things. And I think that's for me [53:52] the more um where the where the shoe [53:56] starts to not fit anymore. [53:59] They're forcing themselves in there. But [54:03] yeah, if you don't if you don't see the [54:04] whole picture, you're just kind of like [54:07] the bull in the in the china just [54:10] ramming stuff without you understanding [54:13] that you're doing it because [54:16] yeah, it's me. It's here everybody. Hi. [54:19] >> He's Revkus. You can find him at [54:20] withinwp.com. [54:22] You can buy his course. You can get the [54:24] course. Go to withinwp.com. [54:26] I won't mention the price just in case [54:28] it changes. Uh but within wp.com, click [54:30] on courses. You can get make WordPress [54:33] fast available now. I see a notify me on [54:36] a git for WordPress builds coming soon, [54:39] I'd imagine. Um and community coming [54:43] soon. Cloudflare for WordPress. All [54:44] kinds of stuff. Uh and of course, [54:46] Scanfully. Anywhere else you want folks [54:49] to go to say thanks. [54:51] >> Um [54:53] you know, uh not not specifically. just [54:57] happy to happy to talk. If you want to [54:59] find me on LinkedIn or X, uh I'm there. [55:02] Um there's there's days I'm vocal, [55:05] there's days I'm not. Uh I do try out [55:07] try very hard to [55:11] uh so I I'm I'm I'm closing in on I [55:15] think 16,000 uh followers on on X. And I [55:18] I contribute that mostly because I show [55:20] up and talk. And uh I I do my best to do [55:24] that, but sometimes work is just work [55:26] and I I just kind of lurk in a day. But [55:29] if you want to say hi on any of those [55:31] platforms and engage, I'd love to follow [55:34] fellow people uh wanting to understand [55:36] the WordPress world uh in greater depth [55:38] and I'm happy to help in that uh in that [55:40] direction. But yeah, um, just Google my [55:44] name and add the word WordPress and [55:45] there's no way in escape of escaping me. [55:49] >> I say the same thing about Matt. [55:51] [laughter] [55:51] >> Just say WordPress and Matt, you'll find [55:53] me. [55:53] >> One of us is right. [55:56] [laughter] [55:58] Thanks for hanging out today. You can [55:59] also find him inside the WP Minute [56:01] community. Uh, if you go to the [56:02] wpmin.com, click on our courses, you can [56:05] uh, take the hosting course for free and [56:06] join the Slack community for free. [56:08] Thanks for hanging out everybody. Will [56:09] see you in the next