How Does Your Brain Perceive the World?  ## Highlights - **Aphantasia Alters How Imagination Feels** - Alex Rosenthal experiences aphantasia, meaning he can't conjure visual images and instead thinks in non-visual concepts. - He still reads novels and fantasizes but as conceptual immersion rather than a movie-like mind's eye. Transcript: Manoush Zomorodi Alex doesn't see pictures in his mind like most people do. And it turns out there's a word for this, aphantasia. Alex Rosenthal Aphantasia is the absence of a mind's eye or at least not having access to your mind's eye. So if you're asked to visualize something, you are not able to. You may be able to think about it, but you're not able to visualize it. And for some people, it's just total blank slate. Some people get like a very brief flash of things sometimes. I can sometimes get like a tiny flash, like for like a fraction of a microsecond, and then it's gone. Manoush Zomorodi I'm thinking of the Beatles song, like, picture yourself on a boat on a river. Do you picture yourself on a boat on a river? Alex Rosenthal Oh, no, no. I never thought of it as like a command. Manoush Zomorodi It was always a command to me. I see myself. I am on a boat. I am on a river. Oh, yeah. Wow. Alex Rosenthal The short answer is like visualizing, I think, is extremely complicated. But it's one of these things that for each of us, we do it in our own way. And so it doesn't necessarily seem like it has this huge variety until you start talking to other people and just trying to square, okay, like, you can do what when you're thinking about This? And when I first encountered Aphantasia, the, like, person-to differences were immediately fascinating because it was just this whole dimension of existing that was totally new To me. Manoush Zomorodi Humans come in different shapes and sizes. We're all different. We hear it all the time. But what if we're also experiencing the world and interactions with each other completely differently? Today on the show, altered perceptions. Rethinking ideas about the mind's eye, memory, and social norms that may make you see your own behavior very differently. For Alex Rosenthal, learning about aphantasia opened up a whole new way for him to relate to his friends and colleagues. Alex Rosenthal It puts us into confrontation with the fact that two minds can perceive the same reality entirely differently. Here he is on the TED stage. I have a condition called aphantasia, which is where I don't have access to my mind's eye. It turns out that the mind's eye is a spectrum. On one end are about two to four percent of us with aphantasia. And at the other extreme is hyperphantasia. That's where you can visualize an exquisite detail, sometimes even able to superimpose what you're imagining on reality. That's about three to six percent of people. Everyone else is somewhere in between, but there's a huge range of experience here. ([Time 0:02:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7867a83f-c77c-4744-838b-1d30b266adf0)) - **Mind's Eye Exists On A Wide Spectrum** - The mind's eye exists on a spectrum from aphantasia (2–4%) to hyperphantasia (3–6%), with most people between. - Alex explains hyperphantasia can include superimposing imagined detail onto reality, showing wide individual variance. Transcript: Alex Rosenthal It turns out that the mind's eye is a spectrum. On one end are about two to four percent of us with aphantasia. And at the other extreme is hyperphantasia. That's where you can visualize an exquisite detail, sometimes even able to superimpose what you're imagining on reality. That's about three to six percent of people. Everyone else is somewhere in between, but there's a huge range of experience here. Manoush Zomorodi I mean, the root of it is fantasia, which means fantasy. So meaning that you don't have fantasies? Alex Rosenthal So I definitely have fantasies or like I definitely spend time imagining things. It's just not super visual. And like if your way of imagining or fantasizing is visual, then I think it's a little hard to explain what that is. But it's very similar to when I read a novel. I love to read. But when I experience it, I'm not seeing... When you read a book, are you seeing scenes play out or casting characters? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's not like ([Time 0:05:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/86d2a4f8-f442-4ba2-8b90-fb39bd4b1c94)) - **Photographs Outshine Vivid Memories For Aphantasia** - Alex can't visualize even close family faces and recalls childhood photos more easily than lived events. - He remembers a photograph of himself on an inflatable alligator but not the memory of being in that pool. Transcript: Alex Rosenthal Daughter. I can't in this moment imagine her face. That has a big effect on my memory, and it's also not just my mind's eye, it's also my mind's ear. I think I have a little bit of a mind's ear, but I don't have a mind's nose or a mind's mouth. I can't, for example, imagine the taste of peanut butter. And what's it like to think in the absence of the mind's eye? That's a really tough question that's not that far off from asking what's it like to be a dolphin or a spider. And in the absence of being able to inhabit each other's consciousnesses, we can communicate about them. Manoush Zomorodi I mean, I guess it never even occurred to me to think that someone couldn't picture people's faces. Alex Rosenthal Yes, I can recognize people's faces, but I can't conjure them into my mind. And I think that's one of the clues that like this visual processing is happening somewhere. Yes. Like people's faces are stored in my mind, but I can't summon them to mind, including the people that I see the most, my daughter, my wife, my parents. Manoush Zomorodi Do you feel sad that you don't get some of this visualization? Yeah, sometimes. Alex Rosenthal I mean, the place that it bums me out the most is with memory. For me, I think memory is very visual, but I don't have access to the visualization. And so it's really hard to conjure memories. Oddly enough, I can remember photographs of my childhood more than I can remember the events of my childhood. ([Time 0:07:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/717b11de-7f30-4439-8775-0450499c5914)) - **Diversity Of Minds Enriches Collaboration** - Rosenthal argues neurological diversity means billions of uniquely experienced minds and challenges a single 'normal' baseline. - He suggests embracing differences to collaborate complementary strengths rather than forcing conformity. Transcript: Alex Rosenthal And I struggle with that too. But what's become increasingly apparent is that the mind's eye is just one of many constellations we're starting to draw in a night sky full of neurological diversity. That includes having or not having an interior monologue. It includes the autism spectrum, ADHD, dyslexia, and a lot more, probably a lot of things we have yet to even give a name to, we're just figuring all this out. Manoush Zomorodi It really, I think, makes us realize that all the people we spend time with may be experiencing the world very differently than we are. To the point that they are like aliens in a way to us? Like if I was able to like put your brain in my brain for a day, what do you think it would be like for me? Yeah. Alex Rosenthal So I think our minds may be entirely alien to each other. I think it's this kind of fundamental unknowable thing. And it's one where we each have exactly one data point. And the tempting thing that I think everybody falls into is basically like, okay, this is the baseline. And this is what quote unquote normal is. And I think this is just completely wrong. I think that collectively with billions of people, we probably have billions of interior experiences that are so different from each other because I think it's a big combinatorial Space. And like, I think it's much more exciting for people to be way different than way the same because it's just a much more rich experience of life and humanity. Manoush Zomorodi That's been a big experience for me. A wonderful thing is getting older. Because I found that when I was younger, I was looking for people like, you know, you're looking for your people, right? People are on the same wavelengths. But the older I get, the more I enjoy spending time with people who say things that I'm like, where did you even come up with that idea? You see the world so differently for me. Totally. Alex Rosenthal So basically, I think if we stop trying to shove all of humanity into a box that is defined by borders that are defined as normal functioning of the mind or not normal functioning of the Mind and said, say, like, okay, there's a lot of different ways of being. Let's help you, like, be the best within that and also connect with other people who can, who are complementary to you. ([Time 0:09:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/34b90d19-771e-4dd3-9dad-6eb7e31cd2ef)) - **Confident 9/11 Memory Turned Out Partly False** - John Wixted recalls the vivid scene of watching 9/11 unfold in his kitchen and a friend's chilling remark about firefighters. - He later discovered his memory included a visitor who in fact hadn't been there, highlighting fallibility. Transcript: John Wixted Memory is I was standing just outside my kitchen. My wife was inside the kitchen. There was a friend of ours over at our house visiting. She was bringing her kids over for a play date and my kids were upstairs and the events started to unfold and it was horrifying. And I remember saying that I hope everybody got out of that building. It was so shocking to see that. And the woman who was visiting our house said, I can't help but think of all the firefighters who just lost their lives. And it was chilling to me because I realized she's having that thought because her husband here in San Diego is a firefighter and she would be aware of the fact that there would have been Firefighters even if all the people got out. Firefighters would still be in that building. And that's a crystal clear memory to this day. Manoush Zomorodi So the two of you watching the TV, seeing this happen, and her turning to you and saying this, it's very clear to you. John Wixted And my wife standing just a little ways away in the kitchen, the three of us. It's crystal clear. I can see it happening right now when I think back to that morning. ([Time 0:14:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/87b0606b-ca8b-4a0e-af04-f57b1d8a3f23)) - **Confidence Doesn't Guarantee Eyewitness Accuracy** - Jennifer Thompson's confident courtroom ID of Ronald Cotton shows sincere memories can be wrong and lead to wrongful convictions. - DNA later exonerated Cotton, revealing hundreds of similar confident misidentifications in exoneree cases. Transcript: Manoush Zomorodi A warning, this story includes accounts of crimes of sexual violence. John Wixted Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton is the most famous case and has convinced a lot of people how unreliable memory is. Manoush Zomorodi In 1985, a man named Ronald Cotton was convicted of raping a woman named Jennifer Thompson. John Wixted Jennifer Thompson, a rape victim, misidentified him as her attacker. John Wixted explains from the TED stage. As she would later recall her testimony from his criminal trial, I was absolutely, positively, without a doubt certain that he was the man who raped me when I got on that witness stand, And nobody was going to tell me any different. The jury understandably found her testimony convincing. Cotton was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. But Ronald Cotton did not rape Jennifer Thompson. Instead, it was a known rapist prowling her neighborhood that night. Cotton spent almost 11 years in prison before DNA testing finally proved his innocence and revealed the identity of the true rapist, a man named Bobby Poole. Jennifer Thompson's testimony was sincere, but her memory was wrong. DNA exoneration cases just like this one involving confident misidentifications have happened literally hundreds of times, leading many to seriously question the reliability Of eyewitness memory. ([Time 0:17:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fe6b748a-e285-400a-be95-07385df97dfa)) - **First Identification Is Most Reliable** - Initial eyewitness responses often show low confidence or rejection, but later testing and courtroom pressure can inflate certainty. - John suggests the first memory test is the most reliable snapshot before contamination occurs. Transcript: John Wixted And it turns out what she did on that first test was nothing like what she would do later in that criminal trial. It was not an immediate identification with high confidence. It was the opposite end of the spectrum. It was four or five minutes of hesitation and indecision and finally landing on his face and saying, I think this is the man who raped me. So very low confident identification. In fact, the detective's response was something like, you think? You know, police officer wasn't trying to do anything wrong, but that's an implicit demand to change your confidence level, which Jennifer Thompson did. Manoush Zomorodi Wait, so you're saying that the first time that she was asked to identify the perpetrator, she doubted whether it was Cotton. That's right. John Wixted She was appropriately uncertain. And another part of the story that's rarely told is that same rapist raped another woman that same exact night in that same neighborhood. And that witness, three years later, also identified Ronald Cotton at his criminal trial. But what did that second rape victim do on that very first test a couple of days after the crime? She looked at that photo lineup containing Ronald Cotton and actually rejected all those faces. So it seems reasonable to suppose no jury would have convicted them had they kept their eyes on that first test. One low confidence, one rejection. Again, ([Time 0:19:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c84a1b38-a5a7-4d0e-b42f-c00eea5ec7aa)) - **Memories Get Contaminated With Repeated Recall** - Wixted frames memory as evidence prone to contamination: each recollection and questioning can alter or add details. - He compares memory to physical forensic evidence that should be collected early to avoid distortion. Transcript: Manoush Zomorodi An eyewitness account can be reliable, at first. It's just that as time goes on, memories change and morph. John calls this memory contamination. John Wixted Memories are not like video recordings. They're more like evidence from a crime scene. Collected by people without gloves, distorting and contaminating it with every touch. Think about forensic evidence like DNA or fingerprints. Everybody knows that forensic evidence can be contaminated and end up implicating an innocent person, much like contaminated memory can. But we don't just dismiss forensic evidence for that reason. Instead, we collect it as early as possible in the police investigation, before it's contaminated. Because reliable information comes from analyzing uncontaminated evidence, not contaminated evidence, and the exact same principle applies to memory evidence. Collect it early, before it's contaminated. Manoush Zomorodi So why is that not happening? Why aren't law enforcement and police officers attaching much more weight to that first eyewitness test? Why aren't they treating it like forensic evidence? John Wixted Because they just don't understand how memory works. They just don't understand how episodic memories, how easily they're contaminated, how readily they change. Manoush Zomorodi Can we zoom out and talk a little bit how memory works? You know, like memory 101. What happens in the brain? John Wixted Well, you have certain brain structures that are forming episodic memories on the fly and in real time. You're forming a memory of what we're talking about, memories of what we're talking about right now. Manoush Zomorodi John says when the brain transfers episodic memories to long-term storage, it loses some of the more specific details. John Wixted Context change. And so those details of what happened two years ago don't really matter. What your brain needs are the lessons learned from blending across episodic memories. And that's what happens as your memories consolidate in your brain. Manoush Zomorodi And he says every time we reopen a memory, it gets contaminated as well. The brain may alter or lose more details or even add details that were never there in the first place. John Wixted If you remember them and start talking about them and thinking about them, and other people provide input, your brain processes that input because most of the time it's probably reasonable To do that, right? You're absorbing information that seems relevant and putting it together with the information that you already have. Memories are changing, and that's all a good thing, except in the court of law, where that's a bad thing. And it's not just the police, but it starts with the police. You know, the witness doesn't identify him or does so with low confidence. Hmm, that's not the best outcome. Let's do the memory test again. Let's use a live lineup this time. Manoush Zomorodi And they want to solve the case, right? John Wixted Exactly. They're trying to find the guy. They don't realize they just put the suspect's face in the witness's memory while the witness is thinking about the crime. And they repeatedly test memory, hoping to get the bad guy. That's what they're trying to do. Not realizing that each time you test memory, it's further contaminating it. And often witnesses will start to say, you know, I think it might be that guy. He's looking pretty familiar to me. So that's one reason the police don't know. But neither does a judge and jury, and neither does the legal system as a whole. You know, if a witness is having a real-time recollection of that guy committing the crime, that's a prized sort of event at a criminal trial. And these witnesses are not lying. They are telling the truth from their perspective, and they come across as being extremely credible. Manoush Zomorodi Is it possible to do a follow-up interview or identification of criminal? Or is it just then the only thing that's reliable is that very first test? Because after that, you've got to introduce doubt. John Wixted That very first test, the way I put it, maximizes reliability. Remember, there's two threats to the accuracy of memory. One is forgetting. And everybody knows about that threat because we learn about it from our everyday lives. And the other is what you're asking about, contamination. So forgetting is true memories fading with the passage of time. And contamination is false memories growing in strength with the passage of time. And that first test minimizes both of those threats to the accuracy of memory. ([Time 0:21:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9997b34b-f0aa-48d2-8889-094b781588ee)) - **Collect Eyewitness IDs Early With Double Blind Lineups** - To minimize contamination, administer unbiased six-photo lineups early and tell witnesses the suspect may not be present. - Use double-blind administrators so officers don't inadvertently influence witness choices. Transcript: John Wixted It's called a six-pack photo lineup. One photo is of the suspect, and the others are of similar-looking individuals who the police know are innocent. That way, they can still show the suspect's photo to the witness, but without revealing who they think committed the crime. It's a much fairer way to test memory. And it becomes fairer still when other recommended practices are followed, such as letting the witness know that the perpetrator who they saw commit the crime may or may not be among These photos. And the officer who's administering these photos to the witness should not even know who the suspect is to avoid unintentionally influencing the witness's choice. When it's done this way, it becomes a pure test of the witness's memory. ([Time 0:26:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6df20366-3dc2-4496-85f4-2df51c7e1d98)) - **Mismatch In First Description Haunts Flores Death Row Case** - John describes the Charles Don Flores case where the first witness described a white man with shoulder-length hair but later identified Flores at trial. - Flores, a Hispanic man with short hair, was convicted and faces execution despite contradictory early testimony. Transcript: John Wixted The first test, the witness described white male with shoulder-length hair. She makes a composite sketch, white man with shoulder-length hair. And, you know, one of the recommendations from science dating all the way back to 1998 is that the photos in the lineup should match the witness's description of the perpetrator. Manoush Zomorodi So the photo lineup should have had... The police suspected Charles Don Flores, a Hispanic man with short hair. So they put together a lineup of all Hispanic men with short hair, too. John Wixted And she rejected this lineup. But that's how she first saw Charles Don Flores. He's now in her brain, and you can't get it out of her brain. She was thinking about the crime when that face got in her brain that planted the seed of contamination. And then at trial a year later, she confidently identified him as the man she saw go into the house. And then shortly thereafter, her neighbor was murdered and he was convicted and sentenced to death. He's been on death row for 26 years now. He's out of appeals and they're getting ready to set an execution date for him. This very credible eyewitness on the first test rejected Charles Donsworth and described a completely different person. No judge has considered that. No jury ever heard it. And so this is a case. It came too late. ([Time 0:28:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ee4b2e5e-58b4-4f2d-b1b9-8c2e11a75723)) - **Flirting Is Making Someone Feel Seen** - Francesca Hoagie defines flirting as words and actions intended to make someone feel seen, special, and acknowledged. - She recommends asking curious, specific questions and leaning in to listen to create connection. Transcript: Francesca Hoagie Mean, I know this sounds dramatic, but I totally mean it, that learning how to flirt changed my life. Manoush Zomorodi To spread the gospel of flirting and do it responsibly, Francesca decided to hone in on a better, more full definition of flirting and then break down exactly how to do it well. Francesca Hoagie So I realized that I needed to break flirting down to really what it's what it's foundationally about. So at its core, I define flirting as words and actions that are intended to make another person feel seen, special, and acknowledged. Manoush Zomorodi Seen, special, and acknowledged. Francesca Hoagie That's the core of it. Manoush Zomorodi Okay. Francesca Hoagie Confidence with flirting comes from knowing yourself, your intentions, reading the room, discerning other people's reactions, and adapting accordingly. So once your vibe is right, here are three simple flirting styles you can start experimenting with. First is my personal favorite, and that is attentiveness or curiosity. So this looks like inviting connection by asking questions that inspire interesting conversations, like, if money was no object and you could do any job in the world for one year, what Would you do? And then looking them in the eye, leaning in, and listening to their answer. It looks like paying attention to the stories that they share and noticing that the waiter forgot their lemon wedge. It's perfect for any occasion, from a first date to being an enviably thoughtful spouse. ([Time 0:37:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cefe86b7-1c1c-4c65-9fc5-0ec4c4a15825)) - **Use Specific Sincere Compliments Not Body Praise** - Use attentiveness, specific compliments, and playfulness as flirting styles; keep compliments sincere and observant. - Prefer style compliments like 'great sense of style' over body-focused remarks to avoid objectification. Transcript: Francesca Hoagie First is my personal favorite, and that is attentiveness or curiosity. So this looks like inviting connection by asking questions that inspire interesting conversations, like, if money was no object and you could do any job in the world for one year, what Would you do? And then looking them in the eye, leaning in, and listening to their answer. It looks like paying attention to the stories that they share and noticing that the waiter forgot their lemon wedge. It's perfect for any occasion, from a first date to being an enviably thoughtful spouse. Next is compliments. In movies, the meet-cute is the moment when two love interests meet for the first time. Giving a compliment is one of the best ways to have your own meet-cute moment. So if you dream of meeting your person in person, lean into giving sincere and observant compliments as you move through the world. Now, I want to pause here for a moment to make a distinction between compliments that succeed in making another person feel good and ones that are more, shall we say, ambiguous. Increase the effectiveness of your compliments by making them specific and sincere, like, you have a great sense of style, or your eyes are so lovely. Maybe it's the start of a longer conversation. Maybe you gave them a boost of confidence. Either way, it's a win. ([Time 0:38:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7bc668b1-699a-4633-8e9d-816c92b4d4ee)) - **Respect Boundaries And Read Reactions When Flirting** - Men should avoid body-focused or transactional pickup lines and instead aim to make people feel acknowledged without expecting an outcome. - If someone reacts reservedly, respect their response and move on without pressuring them. Transcript: Francesca Hoagie Okay. So yes. And I, and I, and I, and I feel for the men who are, you know, their intentions are very good, right? Like they aren't creeps and they don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. And this is why also going back to that definition, rather than seeing flirting as, oh, this is a come on. And I want to flirt with her because I want to get something out of this interaction, right? Like I'm flirting with her because I want her to go out with me. I'm flirting with her because I want her to know that I'm attracted to her. And it's like, okay, just maybe dial that back and just think of it, right? Or even just saying, you know, men say to me all the time, they're like, well, I don't, you know, I I hit on if I hit on a woman, she's going to, you know, feel uncomfortable. I'm like, well, yeah, if you're calling it hitting on her. All right. Manoush Zomorodi So give me an example. Give me an example. Francesca Hoagie So like an example would be because a lot of men think they approach flirting in a very transactional way. So they wait until they see a woman who they're like, I'm actively attracted to this woman and I want to have an outcome with her. Right. And so if you go with that energy up to someone and now you're like, oh, wow, you look really good in that dress, then that does feel objectifying. Right. And it does feel like you're saying this because you're trying to elicit a very particular response from me. And that's not always going to land. As a man, if you're going to give a woman a compliment, don't give her a compliment about her body. Don't give her a compliment about, you know, someone said recently, I was like, oh, this is good advice. Like, don't give a compliment about something that is out of her control. Right? So if you say something like, wow, you've got a great sense of style, that's a much better compliment than like, wow, you look great in that dress. Right? If you try and you shoot your shot and you say something to someone and they're kind of just like, oh, you know, all right, thanks. And they keep it moving, then just respect. That was their reaction and that was their decision. And there is a level of resilience. ([Time 0:41:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6c8bcc9c-1686-401f-a59d-4d75d0b6296c)) - **Put Your Phone Down To Create Low Stakes Connections** - Put your phone down and look up to practice flirting and organic connection; treat small interactions as low-stakes. - Francesca's clients often meet people organically when they intentionally acknowledge others in daily life. Transcript: Manoush Zomorodi A couple years past the pandemic, but still, life for a lot of people happens on Zoom. Do you feel like people need to be taught these skills more than maybe in the past because they just don't have the chance out in the wild to develop them? Francesca Hoagie Yeah, I think, you know, we're all we're much more isolated now than we used to be. If you take the subway in New York, like, you know, I often do, you'll see like most people are looking down on their phones. And that is you know, an understandable thing that's happened, but it's also a way in which we're just siloing ourselves more and more. So, but one of the reasons that I love talking about flirting and, you know, talking about moving through the world in this way is that then, you know, people say, oh, okay, I'm going to Do that, right? I'm going to actually put my phone down. I actually am going to look up. I actually am going to pay attention to my surroundings. And, you know, my clients have great success with starting to meet people organically when they bring that level of intention to it. So yeah, we do need to be taught this, honestly, or reminded of it because it is a lost art and a lost skill, but we're suffering as a result. You know, I do think that the loneliness, you know, epidemic that we are experiencing and the isolation that so many people feel and the screen addiction that we're all battling to some Degree or another. You know, the only anecdote to that is to actually start connecting with other humans in person. ([Time 0:47:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c991d4c4-9fea-44fe-8d20-b3bca8f02908))