How Nature Heals Us  ## Metadata - Author: [[Hidden Brain]] - Full Title: How Nature Heals Us - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/94d9d6ce-57fd-4445-95eb-ec779a96f415 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Pollock Found Solace In Long Island Nature** - Jackson Pollock moved to Long Island and found calmer moods and new artistic inspiration in nature. - Marc Berman links Pollock's reduced volatility and organic painting style to his time near fields and a barn. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam In the late 1930s and early 1940s, the artist Jackson Pollock was living and working in New York City. What was his state of mind, especially after his father died in 1933? Marc Berman Well, it wasn't good. Jackson Pollock moved from California to New York to be with his brothers. When his father died, he had extreme depression and alcoholism. And he was taking sculpting classes, but he was just not very happy, very mentally disturbed, having a lot of problems with depression and alcoholism. Shankar Vedantam I understand that Jackson Pollock's volatility, combined with this heavy drinking, led to some very public and private meltdowns? Marc Berman Yes, at an art gallery, he yelled that he was a much better artist than anyone that had their art being displayed in the art gallery, and subsequently he lost the ability to be in that art Gallery. He got into an argument one time and was so angry that he turned over a whole table that had all of the food on the table and like 12 roast beef dinners were just flying all over the place and It was a huge mess essentially ending the dinner party right then and there. Shankar Vedantam So at one point, he gets romantically involved with a painter, Lee Krasner, who wants to get him away from New York City. What was her plan, Mark? Marc Berman I think she wanted to get him out of the New York environment where, you know, there were so many bars that he frequented to remove him from that environment. Also removing him from some of the people that he was hanging around at the time, and to maybe sort of take him to a more natural, a quieter environment out in Long Island, that the fresh Air might be good for him. Shankar Vedantam Do you know what this place was like that they ended up moving out to? Marc Berman I think it was like in Springs, Long Island, which is in East Hampton. And it was a pretty modest home, but it had like a barn and maybe an acre of land. There was a lot of sort of beautiful nature to look at. And it did seem to inspire some changes in Jackson. What changes? He was no longer as volatile. He was no longer as depressed. And it seemed like being in that environment was also quite inspirational for his artwork. ([Time 0:05:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/80101fe3-a481-408a-bd97-139c923106be)) - **Surf Therapy Helped Veterans' Mental Health** - Naval Health Research Center ran a six-week surf therapy for veterans with PTSD and depression. - The program reported reduced PTSD and depression symptoms and improved mood among participants. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam I'm curious, why surfing? Marc Berman Well, that's a good question. I think in part because they had some feeling that being in nature might be beneficial. So being out in the ocean, seeing the ocean waves, being on the beach, having the sights, smells, and even the textures of the ocean could be beneficial. It was also a somewhat of a social activity because they were taking these veterans out in groups of about 20 people. And, you know, when you're trying to catch a wave, sometimes there's a lot of sitting on your board waiting to catch your wave. And of course, too, there's also an exercise component to it. Surfing is challenging. It's a hard physical exercise. And I think they probably also thought that that would be helpful as well. Shankar Vedantam So the psychologists at the Naval Health Research Center wrote up the results of the surf therapy program in a journal article published in 2019. Marc Berman What did they report? Found that PTSD symptoms and depression symptoms went down when these surfers were involved in the program. ([Time 0:11:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/72c94f7d-5e33-43c6-a43a-beab55e3f1e0)) - **A Tree Helped Berman Through A Breakup** - Marc Berman sought out a large oak tree during a painful breakup and used it as a listening point. - He felt diminished problems and perspective from being near the majestic tree and its long history. Transcript: Marc Berman Yeah, there was this, you know, gigantic oak tree kind of in the middle of the trail on Barton Park. It was almost kind of off by itself, this kind of singular oak tree that had a really, really giant trunk. And it always kind of caught my eye. You definitely could hear the wind kind of rustling through its leaves. And, you know, sometimes I even felt like I would kind of, you know, talk to this majestic tree that I kind of would anthropomorphize this tree that it could listen to me and maybe kind Of help me sort out some of my problems. Shankar Vedantam I understand that, too, at the end of your time in graduate school, your longtime girlfriend broke up with you. Tell me what happened and the effect this had on you, Mark. Marc Berman Yeah, it was very difficult, and I'm sure a lot of people have experienced difficult breakups, but it was, you know, one of my more serious relationships, and maybe I thought this would Be a very long-term, you know, relationship, possibly somebody that I would get married to. So that was a big blow to me. And I was seeing friends of mine that were getting married or buying houses or, you know, having kids. They all seemed to be kind of passing me. So it was a very kind of hard time. A lot of things compounded where it did seem like, you know, a lot of my friends were passing me by and I was kind of stuck still maybe being a kid, not really having grown up yet. Shankar Vedantam I'm wondering how you dealt with this breakup and whether nature played any role in you finding yourself. Marc Berman Well, it certainly did. I immediately went to Barton Park and looked for that big oak tree to share my sorrow and try to see if that oak tree could heal me a bit. Shankar Vedantam Standing beneath the majestic branches and the gently rustling leaves, Mark confided his sorrows to the tree. Marc Berman I basically said, you know, it's over with me and Heather. Now I've got to move out and find a new place to live. I'm single, I don't have much money, and I'm nearly 30. My friends are buying houses, they're getting married, they're having kids themselves. You know, I just felt like a loser and, you know, kind of thinking, what am I doing wrong? Shankar Vedantam What was the effect of saying this to the tree? Marc Berman Well, initially it didn't help too much, but I think it felt good to get it out. When you're in front of majestic nature, and to me this tree was fairly awe-inspiring, it does sort of make your problems feel a little bit smaller, that we're part of something larger, The vastness of nature can make us feel small, but I think in a good way where we realize, you know, we're part of something bigger. ([Time 0:13:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a4654928-20c8-453e-bc7c-9e3c34525de1)) - **Nature Views Speed Postoperative Recovery** - Roger Ulrich found hospital patients with nature views recovered faster and used less pain medication. - Random room assignment suggested window views of modest nature reduced stress and sped recovery. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam What did he study, and what did he find? Marc Berman Yeah, it's a really incredible study, and I would say one of the most seminal works in environmental psychology. And what Roger did was he studied patient recovery from gallbladder surgery on a single corridor in a hospital in Philadelphia. And what Roger was interested in looking at were the views out of the windows of these hospital rooms. So some of the hospital rooms had some modest views of nature out of the window, like some trees or some shrubs or some grass. But other rooms on this hospital corridor had views of like a brick wall of the other side of the hospital. And Roger was interested in seeing, does the room that people are in and the view that they have out the window have any impact on recovery from gallbladder surgery? And incredibly, he found that patients that had the views of modest nature out of their window recovered about a day earlier from gallbladder surgery compared to the patients who had Rooms of a brick wall. In addition, the patients that had the rooms with the nature view, they used less pain medication than the patients that had the views of the brick wall. And, you know, people might be thinking, well, maybe patients who were healthier or younger or wealthier, maybe they got the views of nature and the other patients didn't. But that wasn't the case. These patients were basically randomly assigned to these different hospital rooms. They were just, whatever room was available, that's the room that they got, which is kind of like doing an experiment. And it's just amazing that being randomly assigned to the room that had the modest nature view could speed recovery and also cause people to use less pain medication. ([Time 0:21:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3d4b7d3f-6110-4c42-8340-f4c501f68447)) - **Nature Restores Fatigued Directed Attention** - Attention Restoration Theory: directed attention fatigues while involuntary attention restores it. - Natural settings provide softly fascinating stimuli that replenish directed attention without heavy demand. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam Working with a mentor named Stephen Kaplan. Steve believed that the benefits of exposure to nature had much to do with attention, and he would often talk about how humans have two distinct types of attention. What are these two forms of attention? Marc Berman Yeah, so Steve coined or developed this hypothesis called the attention restoration theory. And he did this in partnership with his wife, Rachel Kaplan. And one of the main tenets of attention restoration theory is that humans have two main kinds of attention. And one kind of attention is called directed attention. And that's the kind of attention where you as the individual person are deciding what to pay attention to. So presumably, anybody listening to this show is deciding to pay attention to what we're talking about. And this directed attention is the kind of attention that we use a lot in schools and at work. It's thought to be fatigable or depletable, that you can only sort of direct your attention for so long before you become mentally fatigued and you can't really focus anymore. And we've all had that sensation kind of at the end of a long workday where you might be just staring at the computer screen and nothing's really happening and you just can't focus or concentrate To get your work done. We would call that a directed attention fatigue state and that's a good time to take a break. Shankar Vedantam So Steve argued that there was a second form of attention as well. What is the second form? Marc Berman Right. And the second form of attention, Steve called involuntary attention. And that's the kind of attention that's automatically captured by interesting stimulation in the environment. So bright lights, loud noises, they automatically capture our attention and we don't really have any control over it. And it's thought that involuntary attention is less susceptible to fatigue or depletion. And you don't often hear people say, oh, I can't look at that beautiful waterfall anymore. It's just too beautiful. It's too tiring to look at. I have to stop looking at it. So the idea behind attention restoration theory is that if you can find environments that don't place a lot of demands on directed attention, while simultaneously having interesting Stimulation that activates the involuntary attention, you could restore or replenish this precious directed attention resource. ([Time 0:24:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6abe327a-24ee-4226-81ea-f93d0e85af39)) - **Soft Fascination Lets The Brain Relax** - Natural scenes are processed more fluently because they compress details into coherent wholes. - This fluent processing (soft fascination) reduces cognitive load compared with cataloging urban objects. Transcript: Marc Berman Are certain simulation in the environment that our brains process more fluently, that it's just easier to process certain stimulation. And that's also kind of related to soft fascination, that softly fascinating stimulation might also be sort of easier to process. But what does that really mean? And so we've started to try to quantify what it means for different stimulation to be processed more fluently or more easily. And it seems like that seems to be occurring more for natural images versus urban images. Shankar Vedantam You know, it's interesting. As I'm sitting here talking to you, I'm able to look out at a window and I'm seeing a tree. And the tree has, you know, probably 5,000 leaves that I can see right now through the window. But of course, I'm just taking in all of those leaves in one big bite. I'm not actually noticing that each of those leaves has a different vein structure, and the light is hitting that leaf differently. I'm just taking it in as a tree, and that's what you're talking about here. Marc Berman That's right. That's right. Versus in the urban environment, you might actually be cataloging all the different objects, you know, that there's a Volkswagen Beetle, a bicycle, you know, Gothic architecture. Whereas what you're saying, when you're looking at that tree, you're compressing that representation to just be a tree and not to, you know, something that's got 5,000 little extra Parts for every single leaf. ([Time 0:29:29](https://share.snipd.com/snip/557a14bb-4aac-4892-9664-df2dd0b7d0ed)) - **Curves And Fractals Make Spaces Soothing** - Nature contains curved edges and fractal patterns that people find aesthetically pleasing and easier to process. - Curved, fractal-like architecture also increases liking and perceived naturalness of built spaces. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam Talk about this idea, Mark. Why would this matter? Marc Berman Well, it's interesting that natural settings tend to have more curved edges. You know, if you imagine a tree, a tree's got curvy branches, tend to have curvy leaves. An ocean, the waves are curvy. The coastline is curvy. So nature is filled with curved edges. And one thing that we found in our research is that people really like images that have more curved edges, even built images. So images of architectural scenes that don't have any nature in them, if the architecture has more curved edges, people tend to like that architecture more. Shankar Vedantam Another aspect of natural settings that might affect our minds is the presence of what mathematicians and physicists call fractals. What are fractals, Mark, and how do they show up in nature? Marc Berman Yeah. So if we imagine a snowflake, the snowflake has a characteristic shape. If we put that snowflake under a microscope and zoom in, you'll also see some of the same shape. And if you zoom in some more, you also see the same shape. So that it doesn't really matter what spatial scale you look at the snowflake, it's got the same characteristic shape. So we would say then that the snowflake is scale-free. It doesn't matter what spatial scale you look at the snowflake, it's got the same characteristic shape. Or mathematicians would say that that snowflake is more fractal. It's got more of a fractal aspect to it. And you can imagine the same thing with a tree. A tree has a trunk, which then branches out into other branches, that branches out into smaller branches, that might branch out to even smaller branches, that branches out into leaves. And then there's a big vein in the leaf that might branch out into other veins of the leaf. And so it might not matter as much at what spatial scale you look at the tree. It's kind of got this same branching structure. And it turns out nature is filled with this scale-free or fractal stimulation. Shankar Vedantam What do you think the role is of these curved edges and fractals in the effects that nature is having on our minds? Marc Berman It could be that curved edges, and in particular fractalness, might be easier to process. So in particular, if we think about the fractals again, because it's the same shape that's kind of repeating at different scales, you may not have to process or remember every single Detail because it's repeated. But I also think too, and you know, we don't have all the answers to this, it might have to do with an aesthetic preference that people kind of like symmetry and this fractalness also has Some symmetrical properties. People tend not to like sharp edges or straight lines as much. ([Time 0:31:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/df01ae73-3ea6-4385-a389-7309a7ab3dd4)) - **Short Nature Walks Boost Working Memory** - A 50-minute walk in nature improved working memory by ~20% on a digit-span task. - The cognitive benefit appeared even on cold, unpleasant walks, so enjoyment isn't required. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam That's right. Marc Berman One of our major studies where we tested directed attention theory involved bringing people into the laboratory and giving them some objective cognitive tasks to measure their directed Attention abilities. And one of these tasks was called the backwards digit span task. So participants would hear digits out loud at a pace of about one digit per second. So four, seven, three. Four, seven, three. And the participants would need to repeat those digits back in backwards order. So three, seven, four. And we kept increasing the number of digits up to nine digits. At around five digits, the task gets very difficult. So participants came to the laboratory. We gave them this difficult backwards digit span task. And then we gave them a map that either had them walk through the Ann Arbor Arboretum. That was our nature walk. Or we had them walk through busy downtown Ann Arbor, through busy Washtenaw Avenue. And then participants returned back to the lab to repeat this backwards digit span task again. The main effect was we found that participants improved their ability on this backwards digit span task by about 20% after the walk in nature, but not after the walk in the urban environment. So they improved by about a digit and a half just after a 50-minute walk. And many people might be thinking, well, maybe it's just because walking in nature is pleasant and people really like the walk in nature. And it's true. Participants did enjoy the walk in nature for the most part, but we didn't see a strong correlation between how much people liked the walk or how much their mood improved on the walk in Nature being correlated with their improvements on this working memory task, this backwards digit span task. So it wasn't the case that just the people who loved the nature walk so much were the ones who showed the biggest improvement. And an even stronger demonstration of this is that we had participants walk at different times of the year. So some people walked in June when it was about 80 degrees Fahrenheit in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And participants said, oh, Mark, I love the walk. I can't believe you're paying me to go for a walk in nature. They showed really healthy mood improvements. And they also showed really healthy improvements to direct attention as measured with this backwards digit span task. But we also had people walk in January when it was 25 degrees Fahrenheit. And participants said, Mark, I was freezing out there. I did not like that walk in nature. But those participants that walked in January showed the same cognitive improvement as the people that walked in June. ([Time 0:35:09](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aba849ff-56fd-4b29-8fc1-00db386e69df)) - **Use Nature Sounds When Real Nature Is Unavailable** - Use simulated nature (sounds, pictures) when real nature is inaccessible to gain attention benefits. - Real nature gives stronger effects, but 10 minutes of nature sounds can still improve directed attention. Transcript: Marc Berman Involves risk, including risk of loss. Zero account fees apply to retail brokerage accounts only. Sell order assessment fee not included. A limited number of ETFs are subject to a transaction-based service fee of $100. See full list at Fidelity.com/commissions. Shankar Vedantam Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC member NYSE SIPC. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Have you had experiences in nature that have proved restorative or cleansing? If you have a story about a time in your life where the great outdoors proved helpful to your inner state of mind, please find a quiet room and record a short voice memo. Email it to us at ideas at hiddenbrain.org. Two or three minutes is plenty. Please use the subject line, Nature. Mark Berman is a psychologist at the University of Chicago. He's the author of Nature and the Mind, the science of how nature improves cognitive, physical, and social well-being. Mark, when you've been working hard, you like to take a break by watching sports. You once assumed that this activity was relaxing and refreshing, but you don't believe this anymore? Marc Berman No, unfortunately. I think it actually watching sports is not really softly fascinating. That's a bit harshly fascinating. And even when my team won, sometimes I would feel a bit irritated after watching. Now, I still love to watch some of my favorite teams, but I don't do that as a rest. That's not a rest. And I think, unfortunately, there are many other things that we do in the modern world, maybe scrolling social media, looking at our newsfeed, surfing the internet that might feel Like restful activities, but that actually may be depleting activities. Shankar Vedantam You know, I was talking with some friends just a couple of weeks ago, and they were telling me about watching a sports match that was very thrilling and had a very, very dramatic conclusion. And at the end of it, you know, they were describing almost what felt like watching a horror movie because they said, you know, they were literally crouching behind a couch, you know, Watching the TV, afraid of what it was going to show them or covering their faces and looking at the TV through a small gap in their fingers. And I think that speaks to the idea that this is not, you know, calmly restorative TV watching. That's right. Marc Berman I can sympathize with those feelings. I know what that feels like. And again, I'm not saying that it's bad or that you want to avoid that at all costs. Just don't think of that as being a restful activity because it probably isn't. Shankar Vedantam So Mark, we know from lots of lines of psychological research that people misjudge what will make them happy. You say that this is the case when it comes to spending time in nature. How so? Marc Berman Yeah, there was an interesting study done by some researchers where they asked participants, how much do you think you would enjoy going for a walk in nature? So they sort of had to forecast how much would they like to walk in nature. And then they had another group of participants walk in nature. And then they asked them after the walk, how much did you enjoy the walk in nature? And it turns out people really, really underestimated how much they would enjoy the walk in nature. So their forecasts were wrong. You know, people enjoyed the walk much more than they forecasted it to be. And that's just about liking the walk. I'm guessing that we also are sort of off in our forecasts in terms of how helpful or restorative the walk in nature might be. Shankar Vedantam I'm wondering if this is connected to the fact that nature is softly fascinating, Mark, because, for example, if you asked my friends who watched that very exciting match, was the match Exciting? They would have no problem telling you the match was very exciting and absolutely had to be watched. On the other hand, when someone goes for a nice walk, precisely because it's softly fascinating, it hasn't captured our attention. If you ask someone to forecast how exciting the next walk is going to be, how fun it's going to be, we underestimate it. Right. Marc Berman I think that could be part of it. Definitely that softly fascinating stimulation might be sort of less enjoyable or less exciting than this more harshly fascinating stimulation. But that's also part of the phenomenon of why it might work, that it is more restful to go for the walk in nature, even if it's not as enjoyable as doing something else that might be more Harshly fascinating. Shankar Vedantam We've been talking a lot about how we're affected by what we see outdoors, but your research has looked at the sounds of nature and how they can make a difference. What do you find, Mark? Marc Berman So we found that just listening to nature sounds versus urban sounds, you can get some of these same benefits as walking in nature. So you can get these improvements on tasks like the backwards digit span task and other cognitive tasks that involve directed attention, that just listening to about 10 minutes of Nature sounds can improve performance on these tasks. And I would mention that, you know, we find you get the strongest benefits typically when going out in real nature, likely because real nature is more softly fascinating. ([Time 0:40:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/99492b2e-d049-4ea2-b01f-aba5004e9012)) - **Prescribe Nature As A Complementary Therapy** - Consider nature interactions as a supplemental therapy for depression, anxiety, and ADHD. - Doctors in the UK and Canada already prescribe nature walks alongside conventional treatments. Transcript: Marc Berman Well, in some countries, they already are. In the UK, they're prescribing nature walks as a therapy for depression and anxiety. In Canada, they're also prescribing nature walks as a therapy for depression and anxiety. I don't think anyone yet would say that interacting with nature would be a replacement therapy for psychotherapy or pharmacological therapies for depression and anxiety, but it Certainly could be a supplemental therapy. And people have also found that interacting with nature can be really helpful for kids with ADHD, that brief interactions with nature, like 20 minutes walk in nature, can be as beneficial As a dose of Ritalin. So I think the research is definitely not there yet in terms of having interactions with nature be a replacement for any validated forms of therapy for depression and anxiety. ([Time 0:46:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/02b33b40-70b1-484d-ac66-3cebcc27fee8)) - **Green Space Access Mirrors Social Inequality** - Access to green space correlates with socioeconomic status and historic policies like redlining. - Inequitable nature access creates an environmental justice issue affecting health and cognition. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam Right. Marc Berman Unfortunately, there is a correlation between socioeconomics and access to green space. And you see that in a lot of cities in the U.S., for example. And, you know, there's a lot of different reasons why that might be the case. And even people have found that, you know, redlined neighborhoods have less green space and less biodiversity than non-redlined neighborhoods. So there's deep historical reasons for a lot of this. The air might be cleaner in wealthier neighborhoods. There's likely less pollutants in wealthier neighborhoods than poorer neighborhoods. And I think it's sort of an environmental justice issue that this isn't just a nice amenity that wealthy people have. This is something fundamental to all humans that we need to have access to these natural spaces. ([Time 0:48:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/106cb631-8e13-4690-9f57-f21265bf9577)) - **Choose Greener Routes Over Shortest Routes** - Choose walking routes with more trees and less noise to maximize restorative exposure. - Retune (app) can map slightly longer routes that increase nature exposure for cognitive benefit. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam Mark, you say that we should be asking how green our route can be. And in fact, you're exploring the development of an app to help people identify the most nature-filled way to walk somewhere. Marc Berman Right. And this is work that I've done in collaboration with one of my former students, Kate Schertz, where we developed this app called Retune. So restoring through urban nature experiences. And, you know, if you go on Google Maps, it's going to route you on the shortest or most efficient path between point A to point B. But what we try to do with Retune is try to map people on the walking route that will increase their nature exposure. So that would increase the number of trees that they would be exposed to, reduce the amount of noise that they would be exposed to. And so what happens with this app is that the path that it might suggest for you might be a little bit longer, but you would be exposed to more of this softly fascinating natural stimulation That we think would boost cognitive abilities. ([Time 0:58:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a29fab61-7274-486c-8686-1df3c486b50a)) - **Biomorphic Architecture Can Deliver Nature's Benefits** - Buildings that mimic natural fractals and curves feel more natural and are preferred by people. - Designing architecture with natural patterns may deliver cognitive and emotional benefits indoors. Transcript: Marc Berman Yeah, it's really interesting to think about how some of these nature results also might relate to architecture. And, you know, one thing, I don't know if you've ever been to the campus of the University of Chicago, but it's a very beautiful campus in part because the buildings are just beautiful. There's these beautiful Gothic architecture buildings that actually mimic a lot of the patterns in nature. There's a lot of intricacy to the buildings. They have some of the same fractal or scale-free components that real nature has. They have a lot of the curved edge structure that real nature has. And it just feels like it's possible that it might be having some cognitive benefits to us. Student, Alex Coburn, contacted me where he was interested in seeing if buildings, building facades or building interiors, if they mimic patterns in nature, did they also yield some Benefits? So he and I and a few other people designed some studies where we had people look at different architectural facades. You know, these would be buildings for hospitals or religious buildings or government buildings. And in those buildings, we also quantified how fractal the buildings were, how much curved edge structure the buildings had. And basically what we found was that the buildings had more curved edge structure, had more fractalness. People said they liked the buildings more and that they actually thought that the buildings were more natural than buildings that were sort of more rectilinear, that had just straight Lines. And the same was also true of building interiors. So just like not all nature is created equal not all of the built environment is created equal and it does have me thinking or wondering whether even without actually using any real nature If we designed the built environment with a lot of these natural patterns could that yield some of these cognitive benefits? ([Time 1:00:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/12049317-15f6-43fe-8101-4437b53a9b8d))