How to Break Cycles With Allison Russell  ## Metadata - Author: [[We Can Do Hard Things]] - Full Title: How to Break Cycles With Allison Russell - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/2107c41f-e7fa-4476-a957-d1cd097493c8 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Children Teasing Reflects Trust** - Children teasing about parental pain shows they trust and feel secure enough to play with tough emotions. - This playful confidence contrasts with Allison's own childhood fear and silencing. Transcript: Allison Russell Feels like a difference to them, which is a triumph for us. It's a total triumph. It's taking miserable cycles for them in real time, in real life. And it's joyful and you're absolutely right. And it's also, they trust us enough to tease us and to mock us and to know that there aren't going to be some sort of draconian repercussions for doing so. You know, they can be their full selves and have some backbone and have some sass and own it, you know, in this joyful way. I love it. I mean, I kind of almost to a fault and sort of love it when Ida's a bit like, a bit mouthy with everybody. ([Time 0:09:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1b291422-2148-4162-b1fe-1670ef700a67)) - **Speak Truthfully About Trauma** - Be honest with children about trauma to prevent them feeling blame or isolation. - Acknowledge trauma is about parental pain, not the child's fault. Transcript: Glennon Doyle Yeah. And that it's not something to hide all the time. Allison Russell Yeah. And we can't hide it. It's impossible to hide it. We can't. It's in our bodies. When we try to hide it, it comes out in toxic ways. I think. Yes. Yes. And they know because they're unbelievably brilliant and they're empaths. Glennon Doyle And when we try to, I ([Time 0:11:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0a6fe12e-14ad-477c-aac7-2a1a6a7a9bd3)) - **Allison's Early Childhood Trauma** - Allison Russell was removed from her mother's care before age two due to her mother's untreated paranoid schizophrenia and harmful behaviors. - An older abusive stepfather later adopted her, causing ten years of abuse until she ran away at 15. Transcript: Glennon Doyle You have said that you don't think it's brave to talk about trauma. You just think it's part of survival. Tell us what you want to tell us about your young life. Allison Russell Well, I was born and raised in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. My mom is a Scottish Canadian and she met my biological father when they were in high school and they had a brief high school romance. And by the time she realized she was pregnant, he was already back in Grenada. He had been studying in Canada from Grenada. And by the time her parents found out they were getting a divorce and she didn't have family support. So as a teenager who'd been quite sheltered, she wound up having me sort of in a home for unwed mothers, kind of a version of the Magdalene laundries, I think, because this is Catholic Quebec. I was born in 79 and she was a white mother having a black child out of wedlock. You know, we were called illegitimate children back then. And it was a big, massive stigma to be an unwed mother. And she had a rough time of it. And by the time I was born, she had a social worker and a bit of a relationship with her mom, but, you know, was living in government housing and was just didn't have support. And back then, the trend in social work was to just remove a child at the first sign of trouble and put them in foster care. Now, it's understood that social services try very hard to keep a child within a family if it's at all possible. And to offer aid and try any number of things before they just remove the child. But in my mom's case, she didn't have anyone really advocating for her. And she had pretty severe postpartum depression after I was born. And I believe probably her first psychotic break, my mom has suffered with quite severe paranoid schizophrenia for most of her adult life and went undiagnosed and then misdiagnosed As manic depression for many, many years, which did not help. And she struggled with substances and going on and off of medication, which has not helped. And she was very, very young when she had me. And one of the things I've been reading about is the effect that it has for very young people when they become parents, when they're not ready, that it can kind of cause an arrested development. So I've always thought of my mom more like my big sister, really, than my mom. And so I ended up being removed from her care in very early childhood when I wasn't quite two yet because she was doing harmful things because of, you know, the depth of psychosis and despair That she was in and lack of support. And so when I was removed from her care, it was under something called Child Protective Services in Quebec, which means that the parent, if they want to get the child back, they have to Go to court and prove their fitness to be parenting again. And so whilst I was there, she was groomed and courted by a much, much older predatory man, an American expat who was born in 1936 in a sundown town somewhere in Indiana. And he brought the abuses that he had suffered, both ideological and physical, with him. I believe it's ideological abuse to raise children with violent indoctrination into white supremacy, any kind of supremacy beliefs. And so he brought all that with him when he came to Montreal and he courted my mother and he went to court and got me back from child protective services after he married my mom and eventually Adopted me and was my primary caregiver and a primary abuser for a decade until I ran away from home at 15. ([Time 0:12:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/56e74157-40fc-400d-9b92-4308705d4970)) - **Truth Tellers Inspire Survival** - Sinead O'Connor's activism exposing institutional child abuse deeply influenced Allison's survival and courage. - Truth-telling women who confront abuse transform lives although society often vilifies them. Transcript: Allison Russell Of her, not inside of her. I remember your tweet that day and I remember reposting it and being like, that is exactly it. She was fighting real demons, real demonic behavior. You know, I don't believe any human is truly a monster, but there are people who behave thoroughly monstrously and never stop, you know? And what the Catholic church has done and continues to do, there's still a residential school for indigenous kids open in the Dakotas. Like that hasn't stopped yet. And across Canada, we are digging up mass graves of indigenous children, thousands and thousands of unmarked graves. And this was done by the Catholic Church and the Canadian government and the settlers, all of us, you know, my ancestors too. Glennon Doyle Yeah. And people who are talking about it, people who like Sinead, Sinead was right. She was right. She was right about everything. Allison Russell She was right about everything. Glenn, it's so interesting you say this because, you know, my circle of close women and actually someone I hadn't known well until Joni Jam, who I met at Jon Jem, who was Annie Lennox. We ended up texting each other back and forth, just Sinead deep cuts back and forth and different things she had said and talking about. I mean, I was on the floor. I was supposed to fly to Prague and do a video for Demons actually with my incredible childhood friend, Ethan Toadman, who is the creative director for the Eros Tour and is a total superstar And was the set designer for like Formation and the Lemonade, those amazing Lemonade movies. Brilliant visual artist. A big part of it, there are moving through different worlds and it's basically like rebirthing oneself, reclaiming oneself over and over again, calling oneself to courage in, in this Visual narrative to accompany the words and the music. And, um, and a lot of it was to do with hair. And, but I was on the floor and to the point where I just wanted to shave my head and, and not leave the hotel room where I was in New York ever again. You know, I just wanted to mourn in, in a, in a physical, like I wanted to do something physical, like rend something on myself. I had to be talked down, you know, by Ethan. He's like, well, we're doing this video that involves black women's hair. So if you could wait till after that to do this, you know, he talked me down and my partner JT talked me down. And it's funny that your therapist said that to you because JT said to me, could this be something about you and not Sinead at all? Because you never met her, right? You actually, right? But I did. She's part of my survival. When she made her stand in 92, it wasn't about ripping up the Pope's picture. It was about singing Bob Marley's war, acapella essentially, and making it about child abuse and saying that and naming that on the biggest TV show of the day. And I was, I think, 12 ([Time 0:26:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3bd8d61e-9f43-456f-9eb8-106423998646)) - **Music as Early Childhood Memory** - One of Allison's earliest memories is sitting under a piano watching her mother play Joni Mitchell songs. - This moment sparked her lifelong love for music and healing through art. Transcript: Allison Russell I was able to feel love through listening to her music. Like one of my earliest childhood memories was, I think I was on a visit from the foster home because I would have weekend visits with her. I can't remember if it was every weekend, maybe it was every other weekend, but she wasn't allowed to be alone with me. So we would go to my grandmother's apartment and she had this gorgeous upright piano, um, with the kind of like very Victorian curvy legs of a piano sort of curlicued. And I remember sitting under there and watching my mom's feet on the piano and she was playing along. Actually, Joni Mitchell is her favorite artist, you know, in listening to Joni since I was in utero with my mom. Glennon Doyle No way. Allison Russell And she was playing along to Ladies of the Canyon and a deeper cut, a song called For Free, which is Joni singing about a busker and and how nobody's paying attention because they're not Famous. And she's off stroking the star maker machinery. But really, she just wants to go jam with this this musician who's playing clarinet on the street for free. You know, I slept last night in a good hotel, went shopping today for Jews. The wind rushed around in the dirty town. Children let out from the school. This gorgeous melody. And at the end, there's this beautiful clarinet solo as she's, you know, I heard his refrain as the signal changed. He was playing for free. And she crosses the street and goes on with her life. And then this beautiful clarinet solo comes out of it. And I remember my mom singing along and hearing the sound of the clarinet for the first time and being like, like electrified by that sound. Like, what is that sound? You know? My mom, I remember asking later, what was that? And she said, it's a clarinet, you know, that was the clarinet. And that imprinted on me. And then all the mystery and the magic of all those, you know, full circle later of being invited by Brandy into the magical circle of the Joni jam, you know, and playing clarinet on stage Glennon Doyle With Joni and having her say, Alison Russell, the most beautiful clarinet player ever, you know, just this sweet hyperbolic thing she said. So just in case you didn't hear it, PodSquad, what happened is under the piano, she's holding Joni. Okay. Then she hears the clarinet. Fast forward to she's on stage at the gorge, was it? It was the gorge. With Joni Mitchell and playing the clarinet. And Joni Mitchell says, Alison Russell, the most beautiful clarinet player I've ever heard. It was something that most beautiful clarinet player ever. Allison Russell It was just like a sweet. She demanded that I take a ([Time 0:36:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9d6b63a0-7bdc-49b6-9108-7ddd5dd3c313)) - **Two-Volume Journey of Healing** - "Outside Child" and "The Returner" form a two-part album journey of past trauma and present re-embodiment. - "The Returner" celebrates reclaiming joy, embodiment, and loving relationships despite adversity. Transcript: Glennon Doyle Part of my recovery, which is it feels like this big love story to embodiment. Allison Russell Nailed it. Glennon Doyle And I don't know if it's just because whatever I'm doing feels like everyone's talking about that. But can you talk a little bit about this song, All Without Within? Yes. Allison Russell I love that you asked about that. That's by far the sexiest song on the record. Oh my God. I fucking love that song. And that's Wendy and Lisa, y'all singing with me. And they joined us, our rainbow coalition of chosen family that we've been growing together over the last two years. We made the returner in six days. No way! It was 15 women and one non-binary, identifying, gender expansive, amazing, divine being. And three chosen brothers, 10 songs, six days. And we recorded it in L.A. At the old A&M studio, which is now Hanson's's studio presided over by Kermit the Frog, which gave me a lot of joy. Glennon Doyle It means a lot to you, yes. Allison Russell And so that is in fact where Joni recorded Blue and Print Start. It's where Carole King recorded Tapestry. It's where they did, we are the world, we are the children with and cindy lobber blowing the roof off the place you know it's shaka's made records the good ghosts in that place are just Outrageous so it was like a family affair all around you can't make a record in six days without having complete trust with everyone that you're engaged in creative communion with. It's a trust fall exercise basically. And, and it only works if everybody lets go and jumps together, you know, and falls together. Glennon Doyle You can feel that. You can feel that in terms of healing, because the first album ends with, I think, where are all the joyful motherfuckers, which is, which it feels like. Where in the world are the joyful motherfuckers? Joyful motherfuckers, right. And it feels like you could play your records back to back and it would be like, where are they? And then the returners like, here they are. Allison Russell Here's all the joyful motherfuckers. Picked up on that because that's exactly right. Because this is the kind of nerd I am. I am obsessed with multi-volume journeys in literature and in music. And for me, an album is a journey. Like I feel about an album the way some people feel about a film. I accept that the vast majority of people will be streaming and they will never listen to the record in the very deeply nerdy exact order that we agonized over. Yeah, it's annoying. And plotted and planned over. But when people do, it's the greatest thing ever. I will say that to anyone listening, and some of you may have never taken a journey with a record. And I understand that and I don't condemn at all. But I promise you, if you do take the journey with an album that was written in that way, because not everybody wants to make albums in that way anymore, actually. Right. And some artists never did. Some artists were always more single driven. But for nerds like me and Brandi Carlile, for example, and Joni Mitchell and Prince and Tracy Chapman and the Indigo Girls. If you take the entire, and Odetta, if you take, and Mavis Staples, if you take the entire journey with the record, it is so much more rewarding when you have the time, because I also know How precious time is. It's so difficult for someone to sit down for 45 minutes and do nothing, so to speak, right? Of course, you're doing something very active when you're listening, but I know it's hard for us to justify taking that time in our busy lives. But not only is the returner its own narrative arc, although not linear, it is connected to Outside Child, but anyone can take the journey with either album, but they are in fact, Outside Child is volume one, broadly the past. The Returner is volume two. It's the present. It's re-embodiment. It's stealing joy from the teeth of turmoil. It's loving on your people who love you back. It's loving on the people that don't love you back, but not allowing them to derail your joy. And it is just being here now. ([Time 0:40:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/36a95e13-26e0-4649-84c1-ad0b856177e2)) - **Activism Against Gun Violence Crisis** - Tennessee has a crisis with gun violence, complicating children's safety and traumatizing families. - Political activism like supporting Gloria Johnson is essential to counter legislative failures and protect communities. Transcript: Allison Russell Fall in love with JT. Glennon Doyle What a love bug. Everyone who meets JT is in love with JT. Don't get Catherine Carlyle started on JT. They have the most beautiful friendship. I love their friendship. I can tell. I had this secret idea of when women are queer women and then they marry men. I wonder if they just want to wear flags all day, every day to signal to the world I'm still queer. And then I swear to God, Alison is wearing a rainbow wristband. Allison Russell And I'm like, maybe they do. Because you want to say- It's my power wristband. It's my anti-bigotry wristband. I wear it on stage and it makes me feel strong. I live in Tennessee now, y'all. We're battling some medieval stuff over here. But we're winning. And Gloria Johnson is our next senator. Just putting that out there. Glennon Doyle This is airing before Election Day. Incredible. We have Alison Russell here. Everybody get to the polls. Why should Tennessee show up for Gloria Johnson? Tell us that. Allison Russell Because she is who she says she is. She has been showing up for community since she was a teacher as a representative. She's risking her seat as a representative. She is a shoo-in to win again for Knoxville as a representative in the House. But we are in a crisis situation in Tennessee. We have essentially a hijacked people's house here. Only 32% of registered voters voted this so-called GOP, so-called supermajority. I say so-called because they're not behaving in any way like small government Republicans, which is what I used to think the GOP was. Bad actors in office trying to unlawfully expel lawmakers because they are young and Black and standing up for their constituents, like Brother Justin Jones, Representative Jones, And Representative Pearson, Representative Jones from right here in my riding in 52nd District here in Nashville, and Representative Pearson from Memphis. They tried to expel Gloria too, but she pointed out, she was a white woman, one of the openly racist Republicans, you know, allowed her to stay with one vote. And, and of course, both Representative Jones and Representative Pearson were reelected by a landslide and they've become known now nationally as the Tennessee Three because they Were standing up for our kids, for our community, for all Tennesseans demanding a sensible response, any response to the carnage ([Time 0:44:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/93964b40-6cc3-4d14-9528-c1b3d113ea71)) - **Chosen Family as Healing Space** - After running away, Allison found healing living with supportive queer friends, calling their apartment "the womb." - Their mutual love helped them learn what love feels like and begin breaking trauma cycles. Transcript: Allison Russell But I never thought I would physically do that. And Ida was a miracle. You know, I was on birth control. She's a birth control pill baby. Yeah, I heard that. For seven years and they never failed me and I never skipped one either. Anyone listening with a uterus, birth control pills are not a hundred percent. They are 99.999 and Ida's that 0.0000111, what have you. And it was shocking at first, you know, JT and I had been together for seven years at that point. And I was just so terrified of paying forward any of what I lived. And I felt that somehow I would be doomed to do that. But because JT is so stable and has such a strong, gorgeous inner goddess and a beautiful, happy family that's not abusive. I just thought, well, if I'm completely undone by this, I know that he will be there for this child. Kind of self evisceration that I was in the habit of doing of just continually being cruel to myself because that's what I was used to, you know? And I've talked about this with a lot of other survivors and I feel like, you know, an eating disorder is just part two of after you've been sexually abused like that. It just inevitably follows. And, you know, so I had done, I'd had various disordered eating patterns my whole life. It all just stopped when I was pregnant with Ida. It was like this miracle of happy endorphins and I don't know, a flood of oxytocin and joyful feelings, you know, and love for this little alien that was growing and also fascination. But I felt connected. It was like my mitochondria woke up and said, Hey, hey, you're part of this unbroken line of badass bitches who just make life on earth. Like you're, you're fine. You know, you're fine. You're okay. And that was the beginning that has helped me move through some of the trauma in my body, dancing, playing music, being in community with other women has been so important for me. Women that I feel safe with. When I was 16, I moved in. I ran away from home at 15 and was kind of, you know, I tended and hiding in Persephone's basement and the cemetery and the staying up all night at the Croissant Royale playing chess with The old guys or you know going and hiding out in the Marie Rennes du Monde's cathedral little cathedral that was close to my alternative high school that was across the street from McGill And and going there in the winter and sitting in a pew and you know falling asleep and but when I was 16, I got this terrible telemarketing job and I moved in with three other women that I Went to high school with who are my dear, beloved friends to this day. Kim and, and our friends and all of our other, you know, friends just learning how to live in the world, uh, would, would come by and we called the apartment, the womb, you know, and it was, That was such a healing time. They were the first people other than Persephone that I just closed to, you know, they, we just learned so much from each other. ([Time 0:53:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ea28a021-2aaa-4e50-a17c-ba88c3ce93dc)) - **Motherhood Healed Body Connection** - Embrace motherhood as a transformative path to loving and healing your body. - Stability and loving partnership can support breaking cycles of self-cruelty. Transcript: Allison Russell They are 99.999 and Ida's that 0.0000111, what have you. And it was shocking at first, you know, JT and I had been together for seven years at that point. And I was just so terrified of paying forward any of what I lived. And I felt that somehow I would be doomed to do that. But because JT is so stable and has such a strong, gorgeous inner goddess and a beautiful, happy family that's not abusive. I just thought, well, if I'm completely undone by this, I know that he will be there for this child. Kind of self evisceration ([Time 0:53:29](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd676c65-4756-4cf1-a5fd-c37a9816a53c))