How to Stay in Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody  ## Metadata - Author: [[We Can Do Hard Things]] - Full Title: How to Stay in Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/c763207b-4699-4f55-a506-a8b86ff88eaa ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Dog, Parenting, And Small Acts** - Kathryn became a reluctant dog owner and later found parenting reflected in small, meaningful acts. - She watched her son help an elderly man and saw her parenting reflected in that kindness. Transcript: Kathryn Grody Is the nicest thing I've done for my husband other than our two sons. Let him have a dog. I'm not a dog person, guys. Amanda Doyle But I feel like not dog people are just people who haven't had dogs yet. Right? Kathryn Grody Yeah, I think you're actually right, Amanda, because we got to black labs at the same time when our 42 year old was 12. And he needed a dog. My husband needed a dog. Said okay to make everybody happy and I started you know I remember this one time it was late at night of course I started and ended my day in New York City with little bags of dog poop and I was so pissed off and I was just like this is not what I imagined you know and then it was very late at night. It was raining. And a cab stopped at the corner. And I heard some young guy say, sir, please make sure this man gets home okay. And I looked up at the corner, and it was our older son, Isaac, helping an elderly person into a cab and saying, I hope, make sure he gets home safe. And I remember thinking, okay, that's what I've been doing. That's what I've ([Time 0:11:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3c60aa82-fb00-4066-8583-84aa6b643ec8)) - **Use Magnesium To Stop Night Cramps** - Take a nightly magnesium supplement like Calm to stop leg cramps and improve sleep. - Drink it in warm water before bed and be consistent to see results. Transcript: Mandy Patinkin Know, there's no preparation for this. First of all, I believe that you should be when you're 120, you should feel the same way you do when you're 19, 20, 21, 31, 41, 51, all the way down the road. That's how you should feel. That's how all of us do feel. Every now and then, though, some other parts of our body don't seem to agree with that particular sentiment. But, you know, to hell with them. We're moving on. And we're getting new parts or we're finding ways around it. But there is a little thing. I woke up in the middle of the night for my, I don't know, third, fourth pee. And then I had these terrible leg cramps, which I started getting as I started getting older. And I thought, this is horrible. And I spoke to a nutritionist one day. And I'm telling you this. I'm selling this product. I'm not selling it. You've got to get this product. It's a magnesium supplement. I went down, boiled some hot water, put a teaspoon of it in hot water. And I put it in the hot cup. Then you put cold water so it's not too hot. And I drank it. And I forgot. I started forgetting to take it. It is a miracle drink. Get it. They sell it at all kinds of places. Everywhere you'd go, they got it. It's called Calm. And, you know, young people, you don't have that many cramps, but you should practice for when you get older. Amanda Doyle That's really, I feel like, a very concrete, helpful thing. I thought you were going to give us some advice. This is better. I mean, this shit works for me. Mandy Patinkin And I don't know. I actually don't know if it calms you, but it certainly calms the leg cramps. It makes them go away. And, you know, and then, therefore, you sleep better, and it's great. And if you take a Catherine off, and she's away doing the play, so she often brings me the cup before I fall asleep. ([Time 0:13:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/45c8ed33-1cb9-4e07-95e7-36e0f7541e3c)) - **How They First Met** - Kathryn first noticed Mandy in a 7-Up commercial and later joined a workshop where he performed. - Their early friction turned into a 47-year marriage and two sons. Transcript: Kathryn Grody Oh, my gosh. And it's grand. Mandy Patinkin You can YouTube it. It's Teen Angel from the 7-Up commercials in 1969 or 70 or 68, something like that. Kathryn Grody And I was with, I knew one thing. I knew a few things. I was going to be in the theater. I was going to be a mom. I was never going to go out with an actor because one in the family is enough. And I wasn't totally wrong about that. But I was with my boy. Yes, you were wrong. Mandy Patinkin One in the family is not enough. Okay. Kathryn Grody I was at Mandy's first professional show in New York, Trelawney of the Wells. I was with my boyfriend of two years who was this great political guy named Michael Uli.li started Safe Return, Amnesty for Vets in Canada. He discovered he outed Agent Orange. Mandy Patinkin He blew the whistle on Agent Orange. Kathryn Grody Yeah, he did. Mandy Patinkin I'm thinking this is who she's with before me. What on earth does she see in me? Kathryn Grody He made me laugh. But I was sitting with Michael, and Mandy comes out in the show, and I say out loud, now he's my type, what am I doing with you? I wouldn't usually say something like that, Glenn, and I might think it. I said it, which was so odd, because, you know, young actor, not me. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. But here we are, 47, 47. Mandy Patinkin But we're friends. We're friends with Michael Ewell. Yeah, yeah. And I think most of her exes were at our wedding. Glennon Doyle Oh, my gosh. Wow. How did, what happened next? So you were like, that's my vibe, not you. And then how, what happened next? How did you guys make contact? Kathryn Grody What was the first dates like? Mandy Patinkin We have the rule. If you want to tell it, you tell it. We don't tell the same story twice. Kathryn Grody Because he has his version and I have mine. Mandy Patinkin And mine's always wrong as far as she's concerned. Okay. Kathryn Grody I, you know, I thought I was hot stuff. I'd hit New York running and I'd done several plays. And I was going to go to Europe and this playwright Michael Weller whose shows I had done was doing a two week workshop at Ensemble Studio Theatre and asked me to do it and I said no no no I've Worked so much you know I have to go see the real world some shit like that I don't know if I can say that anyway and then he said it's only for two weeks I really want you to do it. And I said, well, who's in it? And he said, Chip Sian, Elaine Bromka, Mandy Patinkin. Oh, that kid. Mandy Patinkin The greaser. Danny Stern. Danny Stern. Kathryn Grody Danny Stern. Yeah. And I agreed to do it. And, um, and I remember Michael coming out after one of the first rehearsals saying, so what do you think? I said, oh, he's great. I love working with him. Oh, you mean for me personally? I said, no way, Michael. He's a baby. He's an actor. He's so crazy. No, no. The next person I'm with is going to be the father of my children. And he's not in it. He's not it. So that shows you how wrong I am. Mandy Patinkin So we're hoping soon we will meet the father of our children. Amanda Doyle Wow. Mandy Patinkin We're all very excited to bring this person into our family fold. But so far, it hasn't knocked on the door, but it could happen any day. And we're all very open to it. Glennon Doyle Well, I'm jealous of that person already. They get to join your family eventually. Kathryn Grody I know. What a Gideon, Isaac. They did a great job. Mandy Patinkin Careful what you wish for. You know, ([Time 0:20:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8c571873-dfc1-4444-9308-84adde19bcf8)) - **Wait In Pauses So Others Can Speak** - When conversations pause, wait instead of filling silence to let quieter people speak. - Practice sitting with negative space as a gift to others. Transcript: Glennon Doyle We have been taught by many therapists that every couple really only has three or four arguments that get repeated ad nauseum if you're lucky for 50 years like you. What are your repetitive issues, argumentsuments or conflicts. Mandy Patinkin I think we're much more prolific than three or four, don't you think? Abby Wambach Okay. Amanda Doyle Of course you are. They're the creative type, so you know. Yeah. Abby Wambach But a lot of the fights, they revolve. Yes. Yeah, and they usually, the root of the fight is, is a very similar thing, right? So it might be about moving the couch or it might be about whatever but like really it's about hearing each other control power whatever it is yeah you go first honey me okay what who's Kathryn Grody Gonna say you go first it's interesting i'm trying to think Well, I think one of the issues we always deal with, I will tell you, is my excessive speaking, you know, is that I'm very afraid Of quiet. Abby. Glennon Doyle Abby is raising her hand, yes. Kathryn Grody I gave my husband a birthday gift several years ago, and at the end of the day, I asked if he had noticed what it was. And he said yes, he loved it, because I basically was mute for most of the day. Abby Wambach It's literally Glennon's biggest dream. My dream? It's my biggest dream. Kathryn Grody Okay, I've just given you the gift of love. It's really helpful. You know? And I survived it, Abby. I mean, you know, I had like, I like to share. I sort of like to turn my mind inside out. And it's not necessarily consecutive connections. It's just, oh, did you read this article? And oh, I heard this. And oh, do you know where we're supposed to go now? Or do you know who drove me nuts? And it's just sort of a rambling stream of consciousness thing that I enjoy sometimes to a greater degree than being sensitive to my companion's desires of maybe wanting to say something Or just being confident in the quiet, which he's much better at than me. Glennon Doyle And how do you experience this, Mandy? Mandy Patinkin Well, I'm thinking about my beautiful cousin who we love, my Israeli cousin, A.L. Zucker, who was very, you know, worked hard, had different kinds of jobs. Then he went back to school to become a landscape architect. And I said to A.L. Toward the end of his studies, I said, what's the most interesting thing you learned in this course, you know, to learn this skill? He said, negative space. What you leave empty. And I love quiet. I have so much noise in my head all the time. Not literal noise, noise that Mandy makes silently in his head that's explosive. And I just, I wish for peace in my brain. I wish for quiet. There's a woman who I don't remember her name. She's a doctor. Wonderful book called Quiet. Susan. Abby Wambach Susan. Susan Cade. So good. Mandy Patinkin People who are introverts. So you wouldn't think that, you know, people who are in show business or public lives, you know, would be introverts. Yet I am. And the people that she points out are. And in the 30s and 40s and 20s, all the Ivy League schools, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, they had courses to be outgoing, to be extroverted, etc. That it was a bad thing if you didn't know this. And you would fail in the course of life. And you can't get over the people that she talks about that were introverts and what they accomplished. And so I just wish for those who are quiet, those who are shy, for those who have trouble entering a conversation, that is one of your great gifts. Don't doubt yourself. I will say this, and it's not a criticism of my beloved. It is a concern that I'm sure she's not the only one that deals with this. She's always been a much more social person than I was. She would have breakfast with somebody, then lunch with somebody, then a tea in the afternoon, go see a matinee, go see a play in the evening. Very active life. All the kids stuff all the time. I mean, I could not keep up with her. You know, no one can keep up with her. She's the ever ready, ever ready bunny of humanity. And, and I, I, I have noticed in the past, I don't know, eight to 10 years, but certainly the last five to seven, without a doubt, since the pandemic, no question, a kind of hysteria about Time. And I feel for her because I feel she's so afraid of losing anything and anyone and afraid of the clock and the sand finishing in the hourglass that she tries to pack in everything, I'm Podcast, every newspaper article, every book, everything that everyone says. I remember one time I said to her, you know, I held up the New York Times. I said, look at this. Isn't this an interesting thing? I said, you know, it doesn't talk. It doesn't talk. It's just a paper. And I don't need someone to read it out loud to me, every word. And I wish, if I had one wish for my beloved, it would be that she would not feel that the clock is moving that fast. Honey, you may be one of those people like Auntie Heidi used to say, you should live to be 120. Like, what was Abraham's wife's name? Sarah. Sarah, you know, because she was like 120 when she had Isaac, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Her son's name. And that you have plenty of time and that you don't have to feel that, you know, you've got to pack it in. And there's one other thing that I'd like to mention. Because she won't listen to me unless I'm on the show. Well, you can't edit me. So this is, I long for this. I like to put it in chocolate. Kathryn Grody You got a couple of hours, guys. ([Time 0:26:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fada8ab0-308e-498f-9025-37a65c6ebef9)) - **Holding Beauty And Terror Together** - Grasping for permanence causes suffering; presence eases it. - Kathryn recommends staying fully in each moment instead of clinging to the past. Transcript: Kathryn Grody This is so amazing, guys. He just. I love you. Telepathy. I was thinking of several things. One is in that first plan, mom's life. I say to my baby at one point. Don't grow. Don't change. Don't lose your baby teeth. Just stay as you are. Perfect and small. And I stay this way too, and neither of us will grow or change, because the way this is is perfect. But living things do grow. We are not bonsai plants, do you know? And I think my brother was a Buddhist monk, and one of the things that I think is very true, all suffering comes from us grasping, holding on to that which is impermanent. And you can tattoo all your babies. I can keep all their little things they made when they were five, which they're just horrified by. But the truth is, we're all impermanent. And we are future dust. And I think the way we can hang on to the love the most is by being in the moment. And not being so afraid of what's over and not being afraid of what's going to happen. But be here now as fully as you can, you know, and live and breathe in this moment till it takes you to the next one. ([Time 0:53:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4c744cb1-5ae7-40e5-b5c0-6e5990b46035)) - **The Wishing Well Ritual** - Mandy created a wishing-well ritual and prays aloud at water to send intentions out. - He says names daily so those remembered remain present after death. Transcript: Mandy Patinkin So I said to Catherine, I want a wishing well. And she found one in the village from France. You know, the cement thing the top and everything. And she bought it and she had it shipped to our home. And it's a flower bed and everything, but it's beautiful. And I always told the boys when they were little, because I would, I'd take walks everywhere all the time, every day. And I would stop where there's water on a bridge. And I say my prayers and my meditation, my wishes for the world and all people who are vulnerable and need extra service from all of us. And I watch the water, and I say the prayer, and I watch the water take them out. And I've always said to the boys, look, if I'm ever not here for any reason, just go to the wishing well or go to the water and I'll be there. I really mean it because my, you know, that higher power in my view, and I was brought up as a conservative Jew in Chicago, blah, blah, blah, is Einstein's theory of relativity, that energy Never dies. If you want to connect with any entity that was made up of protons and neurons and energy it may not look like the four or five how many of us two four five five of us are but but we're there In some way sound my sound man taught me he said sound never dies like light light is millions of years away and then it hits our eyes. Sound is the same. So when they put out those things in that Jodie Foster movie and listen in for sound, sound is the same. It travels. And so listen, take a walk. Most of all, try to listen and see if you can hear your own thoughts. That's the toughest one. But it never dies. I believe it. I need to believe it. I say every person's name every day in my prayers, on my walks, in my meditation before I walk in front of an audience or a camera or a microphone. Because Oscar Hammerstein, and I've said this everywhere I've gone, it's one of the best things I think I can offer anybody. He wrote in Carousel of All Things a Musical this line, as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over. So I say their names, people who are acquaintances or, you know, just people I connected to, some seriously, some just, you know, casual but I bring them there and I put them right here So that when my moment comes whenever wherever I'm going I won't be alone and and I and I don't want to be alone when I'm on stage or in front of a camera or talking to my kid about something Important. ([Time 0:56:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5185e708-0240-4ed6-a3d2-1373fa1f1edb)) - **Act Locally And Persistently Against Injustice** - Respond to injustice by acting locally and persistently: fundraise, speak, join groups. - Focus daily on small acts of care while amplifying humanitarian solutions. Transcript: Kathryn Grody You know, Mandy, as he said, was raised as a conservative Jew, and his mom was so happy he found a Jewish girl, but she didn't know I was a Southern California Jewish girl. Ah. Which meant you celebrated Rosh Hashanah, Passover, Hanukkah, and practiced social justice. And that was a very different notion than what Mandy grew up with. And my dad was a son of Russian Jewish immigrants. He landed on Normandy on D-Day. Wow. He deeply, deeply believed in a democracy being about civic responsibility and participation. He had a 30-year correspondence with Senator Alan Cranston, and my dad had no money. That was the really important thing. Letters, two-page, single type about policy, no money. Recently found and all my stuff a little thing a thank you note from eugene mccarthy for my dad giving him a hundred bucks that was a long time ago a lot of money for my dad so my it's to kino Lum that means steal the world okay and it means one person at a time you know the old starfish story with the kid cleaning up, throwing all the starfish, and the dad saying, you can't possibly Save all these starfish. What does it matter? Well, it matters to this one. You do what you can. You practice kindness. You stand up. This is what I was raised with as a kid. My dad was in that army for five years, was in Germany, was in places. You stand up for injustice wherever you see it. You practice common humanity. That the word antisemitism is being bandied about. It's a serious thing. I do not want anyone to practice othering anybody because of their religion or their beliefs or the way they look or what they practice. But don't use that as an excuse to commit heinous wars against humanity. And it's excruciating. It's like watching a country commit suicide and go crazy. And the entire world is wondering what has happened. A mother in Gaza or Ukraine, you know, or a Uyghur in China. I mean, you know, it is very easy to say I can't deal with any of it, so I'm just going to upset myself. And I think we all need to have moments of the day where you focus on the joy and beauty of acts of resistance, but examine our own lives, examine if we're doing enough, examine if we're Using our voices, who we know in our neighborhoods, expand our social interaction with the people that maybe are not in our circles, that live in our communities, and just keep demonstrating, Keep shouting. I mean, I was lucky enough to be in a generation. We stopped an unjust war. We did civil rights. We had the first Earth Day. We redefined what sex and marriage and family could be. Let's keep doing it. Even though it is very, very profoundly sad and awful, but our species adapts sometimes too well, maybe. There's flowers growing in the burnt parts of LA. I don't know what else to say. I'm talking to myself because I often just wake up weeping and then I'll talk to man. He'll say, did you read the paper today? Or, you know, or I'll tell him some horrible news and he'll say, please don't start my day with that. Glennon Doyle Yeah, that sounds familiar. Yes. Kathryn Grody You need to start with, okay, we're alive, we're well. What can we do today to love each other, to love our circle and to see what we can make better? Just a little bit. Beautiful. Glennon Doyle There's flowers growing in the burnt part of LA should be the name of a poem. Kathryn Grody It's really beautiful. I mean, I was very touched to read about that. You know, all these fire people are seeing these. And species of things they didn't even know were there originally. ([Time 1:03:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9fc87c8a-c9d7-49c8-9bf1-f2021d8c1ffb)) - **Peace Needs Partners Willing To Compromise** - Leaders who pursue annihilation reject peace; humanitarian solutions require mutual accountability. - Mandy urges creating possibilities for peace rather than revenge. Transcript: Kathryn Grody There are so many groups that have been struggling to address this from a school with 45 Arab kids and 45 Jewish kids going to school together. It's called the Oasis of Peace, Neve Shalom. There is the bereaved parents, both who have lost people. There's breaking the silence. Mandy Patinkin I bring attention and fundraising to the Abraham. Now I forgot. The Orchard. The Orchard of Abraham, which when I was filming Homeland in Israel on two occasions, beautiful organization of an Israeli woman and a Palestinian Arab man that started this school For preschoolers, and now it goes all the way through all the grades. You know, it's so beautiful, Palestinian and Israeli teachers. It's everything that you would wish. There are pockets where this takes place. But to annihilate the structures where people have a roof over their head, not to allow food and medicine to come in to take care of the innocent. When you turn to violence and war and revenge, you have lost. If that is your answer to a problem, you have lost. Stop, full stop right there. Go back to the path, take a walk, find a friend and a partner and come up with more humanitarian solutions. ([Time 1:10:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/259bfe75-99d4-4ecf-a1fe-75675af593bd)) - **Elders: Use Your Voice Boldly** - If you have security and voice as an elder, speak up for those too fearful to act. - Use your platform repeatedly to advocate for justice and compassion. Transcript: Mandy Patinkin The younger listeners are concerned about the greatest privilege that they have in a democracy, which is the privilege to use your voice. And in this climate, if you're afraid of that because you might lose your job or your sponsors or your health care or your neighborhood standing or your home or anything or your life, If you're afraid, I can understand that and I'm empathetic toward it. And we're seeing and hearing horrible things every minute, every day. But you elders out there, you people who know that you're elders, take up the slack. Do it for those who are too frightened to speak for whatever reasons. Some of them have good reasons. You've had a long life, you elders. If you have enough to take care of the roof on your head and a stipend to get by till it's over, and I know some don't, but some do, and those who do are the ones I'm talking to. Use your voice. Use it twice, three times, thousands of times. For those who are not able to use their voice or too afraid. I have nothing to lose. I've been given everything. I've been given more than I ever imagined. My wife and two children and two grandchildren, first and foremost. But if my life was over this second, I've had a glorious existence. And I want to pay it back by using my voice and asking my fellow citizens globally to please use your speech. Speak your heart and your mind wherever you go, in your church, your school, your local dinners, to your kids at the table. Use your speech. Don't remain silent. We need to hear you. ([Time 1:15:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/446de272-b8e4-4d3f-a11d-3ffa50a2df04))