Is Astrology Real? Depends Who You Ask  🔗 **Source:** [Is Astrology Real? Depends Who You Ask](https://share.snipd.com/episode/42457fcf-7c32-427d-9c92-66d12b3e6f14) ## Highlights - **Astrology As A Language Of Meaning Making** - Astrology functions as a symbolic language that helps people locate themselves within a larger narrative. - Isa Nakazawa says it lets people of color imagine histories and futures beyond trauma, turning the sky into a map of liberation. Transcript: B.A. Parker Code Switch's 10th birthday, so I wanted to see what was in the stars for the show. I reached out to someone who wouldn't laugh when I said that Code Switch was a perceptive and curious Gemini. I'm Isa Nakazawa. Isa Nakazawa So I'm currently an astrologer, and I'm, as of the last six months, I'm a full-time astrologer. So my bread and butter right now is client work. B.A. Parker Issa's based in Oakland and hosts a podcast called Stars and Stars with Issa. Isa Nakazawa And it really uses astrology as a conceit for meaning making and to invite deeper conversation with philosophy and kind of the ways that all of us make meaning in our lives. B.A. Parker She's also someone who clearly understands that a lot of people might be skeptical of her job because she started out that way too. Isa Nakazawa I started and came to astrology as a skeptic. I do believe that doubt and faith are always in dialogue with each other. And I think for me, I've always observed the way that human beings are enchanted by the cosmos and we're very enchanted by mystery, right? Like the deep sea, the deep outer space. I think we're seeing people be captivated by sources of mystery and meaning making where we feel a sense of interconnection with something greater than ourselves. B.A. Parker So how do you go from astrology cynic to having astrology become your career? Yeah, good question. Isa Nakazawa So my first skepticism was really that I only knew sun sign horoscope astrology. So I think there's also a lot of misconceptions that I had to be willing to look at when I entered for me, whenever I doubt, when you're feeling like there's certain systems of knowing You want to, you're tempted to delegitimate, you need to actually go towards it. So I was, I was a skeptic and then I started to really study it to understand it. And I quickly realized horoscope astrology has nothing to do with the sun sign or like fortune telling. It's this ancient symbolic language that is really interested in the causal relationship between the movements of the celestial bodies and earthly events. That, to me, opened and expanded my mind. I think also understanding the roots or etymology or the kind of beginnings of things always helps you understand the bigger why. And so it's really placing and locating yourself within this like vast cosmic web. And I think for a lot of folks of color, I mean, I can speak for myself. I think we as young people in the U.S. Education system, our history is always starting through the trauma. So like we're always taught like, okay, your people's history starts when, for me, I'm Japanese American. So, you know, my history of my ancestors being incarcerated by FDR. And then also learning that my mom grew up in Operation Condor, this U.S.-backed military dictatorship in Uruguay that swept all of South America. So I always thought, oh, my history starts with captivity. So I think that for me, astrology gives us permission to start our narrative and our own mythology where we want to start it. It also allows us to imagine a past and therefore imagine a future in which our identity is so much more expansive than the limits that we inherit through our education system. B.A. Parker That's interesting because you talk about how for a lot of people of color, we feel like, or we feel like history begins with our trauma and there was a study from last year that said about 43 percent of women under 50 believe in astrology like does that bear out in your clients what you're seeing i think a lot of women clients come to me with big questions right existential Isa Nakazawa Questions about grief loss um one the ones that I've been getting a lot is questions around conception. I think the thing that's been really surprising and beautiful is clients do not come to me for answers. And I think that your star map at its best operates, I like to say, it operates as a tuning fork. I'm just there to provide a really intentional space for a client to understand they have the tools already within themselves. And one thing that I found a lot of these women of all ages come to me for is permission. Permission to be complicated. Permission to need support in coming back to your truth. Like we all come from ancestors where literally the sky became a map of liberation. And so I do think that for Black and brown women in particular, this does not emerge as a strange woo-woo interest. It's something that actually comes with a lot of validity and authority. Mm-hmm. ([Time 0:05:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d32c995-88f9-4113-9cef-0669d450f630)) - **From Skeptic To Professional Astrologer** - Isa Nakazawa moved from skeptic to full-time astrologer after studying beyond sun-sign horoscopes. - She describes clients using charts as tuning forks and coming for permission to be complicated, especially about conception and grief. Transcript: Isa Nakazawa So my first skepticism was really that I only knew sun sign horoscope astrology. So I think there's also a lot of misconceptions that I had to be willing to look at when I entered for me, whenever I doubt, when you're feeling like there's certain systems of knowing You want to, you're tempted to delegitimate, you need to actually go towards it. So I was, I was a skeptic and then I started to really study it to understand it. And I quickly realized horoscope astrology has nothing to do with the sun sign or like fortune telling. It's this ancient symbolic language that is really interested in the causal relationship between the movements of the celestial bodies and earthly events. That, to me, opened and expanded my mind. I think also understanding the roots or etymology or the kind of beginnings of things always helps you understand the bigger why. And so it's really placing and locating yourself within this like vast cosmic web. And I think for a lot of folks of color, I mean, I can speak for myself. I think we as young people in the U.S. Education system, our history is always starting through the trauma. So like we're always taught like, okay, your people's history starts when, for me, I'm Japanese American. So, you know, my history of my ancestors being incarcerated by FDR. And then also learning that my mom grew up in Operation Condor, this U.S.-backed military dictatorship in Uruguay that swept all of South America. So I always thought, oh, my history starts with captivity. So I think that for me, astrology gives us permission to start our narrative and our own mythology where we want to start it. It also allows us to imagine a past and therefore imagine a future in which our identity is so much more expansive than the limits that we inherit through our education system. B.A. Parker That's interesting because you talk about how for a lot of people of color, we feel like, or we feel like history begins with our trauma and there was a study from last year that said about 43 percent of women under 50 believe in astrology like does that bear out in your clients what you're seeing i think a lot of women clients come to me with big questions right existential Isa Nakazawa Questions about grief loss um one the ones that I've been getting a lot is questions around conception. I think the thing that's been really surprising and beautiful is clients do not come to me for answers. And I think that your star map at its best operates, I like to say, it operates as a tuning fork. I'm just there to provide a really intentional space for a client to understand they have the tools already within themselves. And one thing that I found a lot of these women of all ages come to me for is permission. Permission to be complicated. Permission to need support in coming back to your truth. Like we all come from ancestors where literally the sky became a map of liberation. And so I do think that for Black and brown women in particular, this does not emerge as a strange woo-woo interest. It's something that actually comes with a lot of validity and authority. Mm-hmm. ([Time 0:06:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5eb4dd23-ce86-446e-bf25-6928c0b0843c)) - **Code Switch Birth Chart Matches The Show** - Isa Nakazawa did Code Switch's birth chart and found Sun-Venus conjunction and an Aries moon that fit the show's voice. - She said the Sun-Venus pairing explains the show's conversational values and Aries moon explains its blunt emotional center. Transcript: B.A. Parker So I believe I told you that our show was born on May 31st, 2016 at what time did I tell you? 11.23 a.m. 11.23 a.m. In Washington, D.C. All I know right now is we're a Gemini. That's all I got. Yes. Isa Nakazawa So, wow. First of all, happy birthday. That is a major milestone. Thank you all for so much beautiful conversation you've contributed. Gemini is the archetype of translation, of conversation and exchange. It's one of the mutable signs in astrology. Mutable signs are the both and signs. They're the signs that embrace complexity and contradiction and the questions. And it's an air sign. So it's all about connection, curiosity, and it's just so literal for a podcast. Not a convening conversation. And there's really cool things about it. So there's this term in astrology called a conjunction. At the time and location of your birth were basically on top of each other. And the sun and Venus were sitting near each other, like kissing at the time of the code switch birth. And Venus is really a sign of values and connection. And so I love this idea that code switch brings forth and expresses itself in its vitality, which is what the sun signifies. So code switch shines through the art of conversation. And I also like to think that Sun-Venus conjunction for you all is also speaking to the values governing the show. It also just makes it a really good time and like a hot girl. It's getting hot girl. Code Switch is outside. Code Switch is outside. Code Switch is outside. And Geminis are flirty and they're fickle and they're having a good time. But then I got so excited because I saw you have an Aries moon, which is my needle moon. Wait, that's also my moon. B.A. Parker It is? I'm an Aries moon. All right. Okay. Isa Nakazawa I mean, we have a mouth on us, which I love for code switch. And I love, so Aries moons, we're kind of known for foot and mouth syndrome. We say it in the way that we want to say it. And it's an urgent truth. We're outside and we're saying it. That's your chart. And Aries moons want to say the uncomfortable thing. We want to say the hard truth. We want everyone to look at it together. And I think you do a good job of this, Parker, in the show of like, we're going to talk about hard things and you're not even going to realize it. Yeah. Because it's going to be fun. It's going to be cute. And it's going to be relatable. You know what I'm saying? So it's not like the heaviness of it all. We try. We try. So I just thought how literal that like the moon or the emotional center of Code Switch is really about illuminating these difficult but fun conversations. And it was written in the stars. ([Time 0:10:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/56130f7c-e7e6-4b7a-bdd5-1cef7985a388)) - **Astrology Is A Pseudoscience Not A Science** - Carlos Orsi labels astrology a pseudoscience that resembles scientific trappings without working reliably. - He warns it can be fun like alcohol but also dangerous if people let it rule decisions. Transcript: Carlos Orsi I am Carlos Orsi. I am a Brazilian journalist. I'm a science journalist, science writer. B.A. Parker And Carlos has a book on the topic. Carlos Orsi It's called What Science Says About Astrology. B.A. Parker All right, now, what's your big three? Do you know what your big three are? Like your sun sign, your moon sign, and your rising sign. Carlos Orsi Oh, yeah. I am a very Earth guy. I am Capricorn, sun sign. Uh-huh. And moon and ascendant are in Taurus. Whoa. So obviously I wouldn't be a skeptic, right? B.A. Parker I mean, you said it. I mean, Taurus are known to, like, push back. Okay, can I tell you I was scared? Because I don't know. What do you think of people who lead with that question? Carlos Orsi It's a nice conversation starter, I guess. It's part of the culture. My book, it is skeptical and debunking, but it's only skeptical and debunking because when you really go do research on the science about the subject, that's the conclusion it leads To. B.A. Parker Okay, Carlos, how do you even get into something like this? You write this book, What Science Says About Astrology. What got you interested into that topic? Carlos Orsi I mean, I got fascinated with how astrology supposedly works when I was a teenager, really. And then, because I bought these astrology books, one or two, and I read them, and they taught me how to build my astral chart. B.A. Parker Yeah. Carlos Orsi And I built it. And I read the interpretation, and oh, wow, that's me. How can they be so right, you know? It's perfect. I mean, teenagers, right? Yeah. But then, talking to my mom sometime later, said, no, no, okay, no, no, you put an hour earlier. So I redid with the correct ascendant, and the new interpretation also made perfect sense. And it was exactly correct. And it was, okay, there's some BS going on. They can't be both perfectly right. B.A. Parker Wait, so is astrology a science? Carlos Orsi No, it's a pseudoscience. It's something that looks like science, makes you feel like you are dealing with a science, but it doesn't work. So it's what we call a pseudoscience. ([Time 0:16:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c8b55005-796b-4068-90ee-920a182986a2)) - **Two Charts Both Seemed Exactly Right** - Carlos Orsi tested astrology's accuracy by redoing his chart with a shifted birth time and got equally convincing readings. - He realized contradictory-but-plausible interpretations reveal generic phrasing, suggesting the system's interpretive flexibility. Transcript: Carlos Orsi Mean, I got fascinated with how astrology supposedly works when I was a teenager, really. And then, because I bought these astrology books, one or two, and I read them, and they taught me how to build my astral chart. B.A. Parker Yeah. Carlos Orsi And I built it. And I read the interpretation, and oh, wow, that's me. How can they be so right, you know? It's perfect. I mean, teenagers, right? Yeah. But then, talking to my mom sometime later, said, no, no, okay, no, no, you put an hour earlier. So I redid with the correct ascendant, and the new interpretation also made perfect sense. And it was exactly correct. And it was, okay, there's some BS going on. ([Time 0:17:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/22824294-a344-406c-9d92-ca2db4c6f16d)) - **Why Astrology Resonates Now** - Astrology's modern appeal mixes individualized spiritual connection with skepticism about traditional religion. - Carlos Orsi says it gives a personalized sense of cosmic connection without institutional baggage, fueling its popularity now. Transcript: B.A. Parker Why do you think astrology is so popular? Carlos Orsi So, there are several reasons. There's one that is very specific to this moment in time in history. There is a lot of skepticism and disillusionment with traditional organized religion and traditional forms of spirituality. People are very individualistic nowadays, and astrology creates a sort of connection with the universe that is very individualistic. It's your chart, it's your sign. It doesn't have all the baggage of other forms of feeling connected to the universe, previous forms of connection. And there are the psychological reasons that astrology is as a language. As a writer, I admire it because it has 3,000 years. The first otoscope that archaeologists found is from 400 BC or something like that. Really? Yeah. It was a boy in Babylon. B.A. Parker I've seen you talk about the difference between how publication horoscopes approach their audiences. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit more. Carlos Orsi There is a study that analyzed the horoscopes of different magazines. One for rich women, and that's mostly read by white women. One for teenagers, also most read by white teenagers. And one magazine that is explicitly marketed for black women. ([Time 0:19:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/412740c2-eb9b-4a1c-80e2-152c429fab7f)) - **Horoscopes Reflect Audience Stereotypes** - Horoscopes are tailored to audience demographics, reinforcing stereotypes about class and race. - A study Carlos cites shows Vogue gave indulgent financial advice while Essence emphasized saving and distrust, reflecting target readers' assumed realities. Transcript: Carlos Orsi There is a study that analyzed the horoscopes of different magazines. One for rich women, and that's mostly read by white women. One for teenagers, also most read by white teenagers. And one magazine that is explicitly marketed for black women. And they found some stark differences in the horoscopes, the kind of advice. The main difference was in dealing with money and men. White wealthy women received advice that was worded in a very romantic way about men, love and things like that. The advice they got was to have fun spending money. Okay, so go buy yourself a treat. Black women, the advice about men, it wasn't romantic. It was more sexualized and eroticized. And the advice about money was save and don't lend money to anyone. So, I mean, you see the stereotype right there, right? I mean, the author said, okay, so black women, they are sexualized and they live surrounded by people they can't trust because never lend money to anyone. ([Time 0:20:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/72f69175-38a3-430d-9c25-c07e24894a47)) - **Belief Tied To Social Marginality** - The social marginality hypothesis links belief in astrology to lack of social power. - Carlos Orsi explains women, LGBTQ people, and Black and Latino individuals may turn to astrology because it offers a sense of control absent in daily life. Transcript: B.A. Parker But wait, okay. One thing I am curious about, like the biggest believers of astrology tend to be black and Latino women, particularly spiritual women. And I wonder what you would make of that. Carlos Orsi There is this thing that's called the social marginality hypothesis. What is that? That are underprivileged in society, perhaps because they know and they feel in their daily lives that they have less control over their lives, they have less access to stuff, they Tend to feel more attracted to paranormal and supernatural beliefs, including astrology. Because this kind of belief creates a feel of control, of being touched with some power or things like that. And you see that the belief spikes among women, LGBTQ people, and Black and Latino people, and people who didn't have access to higher education. I mean, they are the underprivileged groups in society. So I think that it sort of makes sense. These beliefs, this grasping for something bigger, something more powerful, or this sense of understanding how fate might work, is something that is attractive for people who don't Have or have less real concrete power over their lives. B.A. Parker So I lean into astrology potentially because I feel like I am powerless. Carlos Orsi Or less powerful than the people around you. ([Time 0:25:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d64ea274-7810-4562-bb93-61f50b5948dd)) - **Trust Yourself Rather Than Waiting For The Stars** - Stop waiting for astrology to tell you what to do and trust your own judgment. - Carlos Orsi and Parker discuss that consultations often give clients permission to act on choices they already knew were right. Transcript: B.A. Parker Well, trust yourself. I'm an Aquarius. I can't trust myself, Carla. Carlos Orsi When you let go of the Aquarius, you will be able to trust yourself. B.A. Parker Maybe I should just, like, into numerology or something instead. Carlos Orsi I mean, when astrology is beneficial in a psychological sense, what is it really doing? It's just giving people some leverage to do what they already knew they had to do. Right? I mean, there's this guy who said, when a person goes to a consultation, an appointment with an astrologer, and asks, oh, I don't know what should I do about my boyfriend. I can't stand him, but I don't know what to do. You know what to do. You just want some third party to say, yeah, the universe wants you to dump this guy. So stop waiting for the universe to tell you what to do. ([Time 0:30:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/53458aa2-e8d8-4d6d-b1d9-fdf170e0f0c8))