It’s Only FAIR  ## Metadata - Author: [[Crossword]] - Full Title: It’s Only FAIR - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/4cd898ee-171f-4c03-9682-08b31c061eb8 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **FAIR Project's Core Vision** - The FAIR project aims to serve as a drop-in replacement for WordPress.org resources, removing dependency on a single resource. - It focuses on decentralized package management to enable scalability and independence for hosts and users. Transcript: Luke Okay, that was pretty good. Jonathan So that was one of the highlights coming out of WordCamp Europe was this FAIR project, FAIR, which stands for, have you figured it out yet? Luke Federated something, something, something. Jonathan Repository. Federated and independent repositories or something like that? No, that's exactly right. Okay. What did you think of it when you first came across it? Luke I was excited. I mean, this is something that I've, in the back of my head, you know, my shower thoughts have always been, someone should just do this. Someone should just make this. Surely a host is working on it. And I knew that there were people working on something in the background quietly, but I didn't realize anyone was working on this particular issue. So when it came up, I was stoked. I think it's a great idea and I'm glad that it's got legs. I'm really excited for it. What do you think? Jonathan So let's see if you can correct my understanding or misunderstanding of this. It seems like according to the GitHub repo, which is the source of truth, there seem to be two key – it says there's two key pillars. The API replacement, which as I understand it is removing dependency on.org for things that WordPress needs to function. And then what it describes is decentralized package management, which I'm not sure exactly what that means. But what I've understood this to be is allowing someone using WordPress and presumably also hosts and folks with lots of WordPress to remove dependency on.org and replace it with some Other dependency. It could be themselves. Is that a fair understanding? Unintended? Luke We're going to run into that pun time and time again, aren't we? So unfair. Jonathan Yeah. Luke So I don't think you quite got the second definition right but the first one is right it's okay so i think we need to start with from what i've seen on github this is a proof of concept all Right it's not ready to roll out so i think that's important to ([Time 0:03:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/19029e2c-4158-4bf9-a550-0fb947da3add)) - **FAIR Project** - The FAIR project, highlighted at WordCamp Europe, aims to create federated and independent repositories. - Luke has long thought that someone should develop this, assuming a host was already quietly working on it. Transcript: Jonathan So that was one of the highlights coming out of WordCamp Europe was this FAIR project, FAIR, which stands for, have you figured it out yet? Luke Federated something, something, something. Jonathan Repository. Federated and independent repositories or something like that? No, that's exactly right. Okay. What did you think of it when you first came across it? Luke I was excited. I mean, this is something that I've, in the back of my head, you know, my shower thoughts have always been, someone should just do this. ([Time 0:03:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2fb57c36-c35a-44c3-8c2b-b00a86ea9f39)) - **FAIR Project Vision** - The FAIR project aims to be a drop-in replacement for wordpress.org and the plugin repo. - It's currently a proof of concept, not ready to roll out yet. Transcript: Luke I don't think you quite got the second definition right but the first one is right it's okay so i think we need to start with from what i've seen on github this is a proof of concept all right It's not ready to roll out so i think that's important to make clear. Yeah. And second, I think the vision can be pretty succinctly put by saying, being able to, this is a drop-in replacement, a drop-in replacement for everything from wordpress.org, everything From the plugin repo, which is obviously the big one and WordPress, to little things like assets that are hosted on the about screen. That's not actually implemented in the project yet, I don't think, but it's on the roadmap. It's a difficult one because you need someone to host those assets and that hosting, there's a lot of sites running WordPress, so you need to be able to scale. Jonathan I'm excited that you're excited about this. I think the main thing I'm noticing so far is that there seems to be a lot of effort that's gone into it. And some really talented folks who put quite a bit of energy into it. I'm having a hard time currently of seeing, like, where does this go? Like, it's like, what's the bigger picture? It's somewhat, it's seemingly clandestine nature up till this point. The fact that it had to be such a secret thing is, I don't know. ([Time 0:05:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cbbaae0c-53b3-4377-acc4-ae90b8690bd3)) - **FAIR Drives Decentralization Necessity** - FAIR emerged out of necessity due to conflicts and blocks by wordpress.org, not merely as a 'nice to have'. - It supports decentralization and choice to avoid relying on a single controlling entity for essential WordPress resources. Transcript: Jonathan Yet. So I'm happy you're excited about it. I just don't know what to think of it. Luke So it had to be clandestine because you couldn't attract the people to work on it if they thought they were going to get blocked from WordPress.org. Jonathan Sure. Right. And a number of the folks involved in this are folks who, no, I wouldn't say a number, but Ryan McHugh, for instance, was someone who had been blocked from WordPress.org. Yes. Luke And the big, how do you say, the people with an audience that are involved in it, like Yoast, they were also blocked. And I think partially because of their maybe more public involvement or behind the scenes, you know, like there's, there's different levels, right? There's like, I'm publishing this on my blog and then there's, I'm having talks with people and it word leaks out to Matt Mullen work and now I'm blocked. So you got to be careful. And that's, that's why it was, I think secret ish up until now. Um, in terms of like, how, where does it go from here? I think the answer is actually super clear. I'm surprised you don't know actually, is because it's the ultimate drop in replacement for any host. Like you're all about hosts, Jonathan, you know, you're all about partnering with hosts, which it makes a lot of sense from a distribution perspective. So why wouldn't a host have a fair instance, at the very least, ready to go, if not just roll it out? Jonathan Ready to go is interesting. I think I'm looking at this more through the political lens, right? Because someone like WP Engine, to me, would make a lot of sense to be an open supporter of this. What do they have to lose from it, right? I think they're effectively already forced in a position to, last I recall, I don't think they're using.org to this day. Maybe they are. I don't recall what the current state of the legal conflict. Luke I think legally they have access to.org, but I'm not sure if they're doing that internally. Jonathan I haven't seen a whole lot yet. I've seen from Matt, I was thinking about Matt specifically. I know that he was asked some questions about this during WordCamp Europe, and I think he responded diplomatically. The little bit I have seen him on, say, on Twitter, seems to be talking up, understandably, the benefits of.org and expressing concerns if you just sort of let that go, right? And I think if I were a host, at least at the current state, I would, unless I was forced to, so to your point, maybe hosts would be preparing to have something like this be rolled out. But unless I was forced to, I'd be hesitant to be one of the first to say, hey, we're going to use this instead of.org. Luke They'll always be first movers. I think GoDaddy might be one. They'll always be first movers, smaller hosts, people who want to differentiate themselves. But Matt does have some good points about the benefits of WordPress.org. But it's not a good nor sustainable model to have one person in control of the most valuable. Jonathan Exactly. This is the heart of the contention is that up until a year ago, we thought.org was a shared resource that we're all putting our time and energy into. And then suddenly Matt – If it were, fair wouldn't be required. Right. Now, so it could be argued that it's a wise thing to do in the spirit of our decentralized ecosystem, right? To have something where you can have choices and that you can not just be dependent on one and for a mix of different reasons. Like there's value in that objectively. And I think we've ended up getting here, at least from the part of the folks who put the majority of the effort into it by necessity, not by like, oh, this is like a nice to have. ([Time 0:07:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7e4a237d-e379-45ac-ace3-e3025b385b7d)) - **FAIR Initiative's Clandestine Nature** - The FAIR initiative had to be somewhat secretive to attract contributors. People feared being blocked from WordPress.org. - Ryan McHugh, who had been blocked from WordPress.org, is involved in the initiative. Transcript: Jonathan So I'm happy you're excited about it. I just don't know what to think of it. Luke So it had to be clandestine because you couldn't attract the people to work on it if they thought they were going to get blocked from WordPress.org. Jonathan Sure. Right. And a number of the folks involved in this are folks who, no, I wouldn't say a number, but Ryan McHugh, for instance, was someone who had been blocked from WordPress.org. ([Time 0:07:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e0a8425b-4b48-4454-935d-78747418681d)) - **FAIR Initiative Motivation** - The FAIR initiative had to be somewhat clandestine to attract people who feared being blocked from WordPress.org. - Luke believes the initiative's ultimate goal is to be a drop-in replacement for any host. Transcript: Jonathan So I'm happy you're excited about it. I just don't know what to think of it. Luke So it had to be clandestine because you couldn't attract the people to work on it if they thought they were going to get blocked from WordPress.org. Jonathan Sure. Right. And a number of the folks involved in this are folks who, no, I wouldn't say a number, but Ryan McHugh, for instance, was someone who had been blocked from WordPress.org. Yes. Luke And the big, how do you say, the people with an audience that are involved in it, like Yoast, they were also blocked. And I think partially because of their maybe more public involvement or behind the scenes, you know, like there's, there's different levels, right? There's like, I'm publishing this on my blog and then there's, I'm having talks with people and it word leaks out to Matt Mullen work and now I'm blocked. So you got to be careful. And that's, that's why it was, I think secret ish up until now. Um, in terms of like, how, where does it go from here? I think the answer is actually super clear. I'm surprised you don't know actually, is because it's the ultimate drop in replacement for any host. Like you're all about hosts, Jonathan, you know, you're all about partnering with hosts, which it makes a lot of sense from a distribution perspective. ([Time 0:07:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/942c2e0f-9697-4538-b8da-5a96fed8f5fb)) - **FAIR's Clandestine Nature** - The FAIR project had to be clandestine initially to attract contributors who feared being blocked from WordPress.org. - FAIR can be the ultimate drop-in replacement for any host. Transcript: Luke To think of it. So it had to be clandestine because you couldn't attract the people to work on it if they thought they were going to get blocked from WordPress.org. Jonathan Sure. Right. And a number of the folks involved in this are folks who, no, I wouldn't say a number, but Ryan McHugh, for instance, was someone who had been blocked from WordPress.org. Yes. Luke And the big, how do you say, the people with an audience that are involved in it, like Yoast, they were also blocked. And I think partially because of their maybe more public involvement or behind the scenes, you know, like there's, there's different levels, right? There's like, I'm publishing this on my blog and then there's, I'm having talks with people and it word leaks out to Matt Mullen work and now I'm blocked. So you got to be careful. And that's, that's why it was, I think secret ish up until now. Um, in terms of like, how, where does it go from here? I think the answer is actually super clear. I'm surprised you don't know actually, is because it's the ultimate drop in replacement for any ([Time 0:07:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c7bdea38-9ecf-449c-acc4-26ba14f653ed)) - **FAIR's Goal** - Luke believes the FAIR initiative aims to be a drop-in replacement for any host. - Jonathan views the project through a political lens, wondering if WP Engine will openly support it. Transcript: Luke Um, in terms of like, how, where does it go from here? I think the answer is actually super clear. I'm surprised you don't know actually, is because it's the ultimate drop in replacement for any host. Like you're all about hosts, Jonathan, you know, you're all about partnering with hosts, which it makes a lot of sense from a distribution perspective. So why wouldn't a host have a fair instance, at the very least, ready to go, if not just roll it out? Jonathan Ready to go is interesting. I think I'm looking at this more through the political lens, right? Because someone like WP Engine, to me, would make a lot of sense to be an open supporter of this. What do they have to lose from ([Time 0:08:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f0809ea8-325e-4a60-9e5d-55c194675c93)) - **Hosts Should Prepare FAIR Instances** - Hosts should prepare to implement or roll out FAIR instances to offer alternatives to wordpress.org. - Early adoption by hosting providers could provide differentiation and better distribution options. Transcript: Luke Go from here? I think the answer is actually super clear. I'm surprised you don't know actually, is because it's the ultimate drop in replacement for any host. Like you're all about hosts, Jonathan, you know, you're all about partnering with hosts, which it makes a lot of sense from a distribution perspective. So why wouldn't a host have a fair instance, at the very least, ready to go, if not just roll it out? Jonathan Ready to go is interesting. I think I'm looking at this more through the political lens, right? Because someone like WP Engine, to me, would make a lot of sense to be an open supporter of this. What do they have to lose from it, right? I think they're effectively already forced in a position to, last I recall, I don't think they're using.org to this day. Maybe they are. I don't recall what the current state of the legal conflict. Luke I think legally they have access to.org, but I'm not sure if they're doing that internally. Jonathan I haven't seen a whole lot yet. I've seen from Matt, I was thinking about Matt specifically. I know that he was asked some questions about this during WordCamp Europe, and I think he responded diplomatically. The little bit I have seen him on, say, on Twitter, seems to be talking up, understandably, the benefits of.org and expressing concerns if you just sort of let that go, right? And I think if I were a host, at least at the current state, I would, unless I was forced to, so to your point, maybe hosts would be preparing to have something like this be rolled out. But unless I was forced to, I'd be hesitant to be one of the first to say, hey, we're going to use this instead of.org. Luke They'll always be first movers. I think GoDaddy might be one. They'll always be first movers, smaller hosts, people who want to differentiate themselves. But Matt does have some good points about the benefits of WordPress.org. But it's not a good nor sustainable model to have one person in control of the most valuable. Jonathan Exactly. This is the heart of the contention is that up until a year ago, we thought.org was a shared resource that we're all putting our time and energy into. And then suddenly Matt – If it were, fair wouldn't be required. Right. Now, so it could be argued that it's a wise thing to do in the spirit of our decentralized ecosystem, right? To have something where you can have choices and that you can not just be dependent on one and for a mix of different reasons. Like there's value in that objectively. And I think we've ended up getting here, at least from the part of the folks who put the majority of the effort into it by necessity, not by like, oh, this is like a nice to have. And yeah, I think it remains to be seen. Like does what happens if if.org, I guess, takes a what's what am I looking for? What happens if.org takes an aggressive stance against this? It maybe doesn't matter. Luke I'd like to I have a hard time imagining that would be the case you know like matt's in the past especially on twitter has been like you know how do you say it like tongue-in promotional Of fork projects oh yeah go check out this fork of that for because he knows it's not going to work but he hasn't done that with fair he's been more self-promotional like more hey dot org Is cool or hey you better be careful about plugins you know the plugin repo and so a political response yeah yeah i think that he's taking it seriously and he should take it seriously because It's a serious thing and i mean when it comes to things like hosting assets, yeah, of course, you don't want to have to do that. Let WordPress.org do that. That's no big deal. Or, you know, it's not that big a deal for you to do it either. When it comes to WordPress updates, maybe you want to wait and see how does a particular update go. Maybe you want to intentionally slow roll your updates and a lot of hosts already do that. And so this could be a nice way of doing that. Maybe. I mean, the way the plugin repo will be handled is actually super interesting. I don't know. I don't know what the plan is there. Happy to chat, by the way, to anybody interested. ([Time 0:08:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/46bfb0e8-c61d-4b9b-9b01-a79df9b754ad)) - **WordPress.org Control** - Luke says it's unsustainable for one person to control the most valuable WordPress resource. - Jonathan adds that FAIR is needed because WordPress.org is not a shared resource. Transcript: Luke But it's not a good nor sustainable model to have one person in control of the most valuable. Jonathan Exactly. This is the heart of the contention is that up until a year ago, we thought.org was a shared resource that we're all putting our time and energy into. And then suddenly Matt – If it were, fair wouldn't be required. Right. Now, so it could be argued that it's a wise thing to do in the spirit of our decentralized ecosystem, right? To have something where you can have choices and that you can not just be dependent on one and for a mix of different reasons. ([Time 0:10:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/32b46ecb-ee6d-459d-84f0-fa9aa1a8e49d)) - **Hosts Gain Update Control** - FAIR could allow hosts to control and slow roll WordPress updates individually, better managing their user experience. - However, hosting their own plugin repo comes with significant maintenance efforts and responsibilities. Transcript: Luke That. And so this could be a nice way of doing that. Maybe. I mean, the way the plugin repo will be handled is actually super interesting. I don't know. I don't know what the plan is there. Happy to chat, by the way, to anybody interested. But you don't want to have to be maintaining your own plugin repo. That's a lot of work. Right. Jonathan And to that point, are we suddenly getting submissions to multiple repositories and a new set of volunteers to manage those review queues and different policies for submissions? Luke But on the other hand, if the WordPress.org plugin team, if I reject your plugin, it's good for you to have the option of going and submitting that somewhere else. So I hope that you do, even though our policies, really we only reject the very, very worst stuff. Right. Almost anyone gets on. But who knows how that could change in the future? You know, thank God, actually, there's no automaticians on the plug-in review team. But, you know, who knows? So it's an interesting one. Jonathan I'm interested in seeing what the end result ends up being for end users. It seems like something that should be fairly seamless and behind the scenes to folks that are doing stuff in WordPress. But what's it going to look like if someone searches for a plugin and they're not seeing the same results? Are we going to have synchronized reviews across repositories? How is that going to work? It could be great. It could also be a nightmare. Luke Yeah, exactly. And I think part of this is that FAIR will have to intentionally rebrand the plugin repo if they're going to host a separate one with different sets of plugins and reviews. They'll have to maybe, whoever's hosting that particular plugin federated ([Time 0:12:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/56f445e5-0091-42a4-a086-76ebb36722a0)) - **FAIR's Plugin Repo Challenges** - FAIR's execution could complicate plugin submissions with multiple repositories and variant review policies. - This requires intentional rebranding and management to clarify differences for users and maintain quality. Transcript: Jonathan And to that point, are we suddenly getting submissions to multiple repositories and a new set of volunteers to manage those review queues and different policies for submissions? Luke But on the other hand, if the WordPress.org plugin team, if I reject your plugin, it's good for you to have the option of going and submitting that somewhere else. So I hope that you do, even though our policies, really we only reject the very, very worst stuff. Right. Almost anyone gets on. But who knows how that could change in the future? You know, thank God, actually, there's no automaticians on the plug-in review team. But, you know, who knows? So it's an interesting one. Jonathan I'm interested in seeing what the end result ends up being for end users. It seems like something that should be fairly seamless and behind the scenes to folks that are doing stuff in WordPress. But what's it going to look like if someone searches for a plugin and they're not seeing the same results? Are we going to have synchronized reviews across repositories? How is that going to work? It could be great. It could also be a nightmare. Luke Yeah, exactly. And I think part of this is that FAIR will have to intentionally rebrand the plugin repo if they're going to host a separate one with different sets of plugins and reviews. They'll have to maybe, whoever's hosting that particular plugin federated instance will have to brand it in a particular way so as to make it clear that it's different. ([Time 0:13:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5b7aa75b-8fab-446d-82e5-3edfa67db21a))