Jen Hatmaker: What Are You Pretending Not to Know?  ## Metadata - Author: [[We Can Do Hard Things]] - Full Title: Jen Hatmaker: What Are You Pretending Not to Know? - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/26d8778a-bd6e-46c2-8ddb-fe04cc5f703a ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **The Night That Changed Everything** - Jen heard her husband voice-texting his girlfriend at 2 a.m. and sat straight up in bed because everything changed in that moment. - She calls that the before-and-after line that ended her life as she knew it. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker I decided to just start the book out by going for the jugular i'm like let's just get into it like let's just start i'll start from the er and that was my er moment i had many many many after That, but that was the one. And I hear him voice texting his girlfriend. So first of all, what the fuck? Second of all, I just sat straight up in bed. And I understand that I deal in hyperbole, but like the truth is that was, that was the line. Like there was a before that moment and an after that moment, like everything was, that was it. That was the end of my life as I knew it. ([Time 0:10:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/012515a7-05a4-4ba1-bd98-6114b69a955a)) - **Knowing Versus Wanting A Story** - Jen recognized she had been sensing trouble long before confirmation and texted Glennon: "we're in trouble.". - She admits she knew but refused to accept the truth because she wanted the story of the marriage. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker How could you? We can't remember everything that happens to us. Our lives are busy. But that year, 2020, and Untamed was coming out in March or whatever it was. I had an advanced copy. And so I read it in like January before it came out. And I do not know if you remember this, but I sent you a text. I got to a certain paragraph in the book about lies that we are telling ourselves. I read it. I very quietly closed the book and I set it down and I picked up my phone and I texted you and I said, we're in trouble. We're in trouble. I'm confused I'm scared. Nobody knows this. I don't, cause I don't understand it. I don't know what's going wrong. I don't know what's happening, but something is happening and I'm freaking out. And so I did know, turns out I did know, but I didn't want to know. I didn't want to know. I wanted the story of our marriage. I did not want our actual marriage. ([Time 0:16:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f2641b2a-543a-4fa0-9537-35b88fd7653e)) - **Cost Of Denying Inner Alarms** - Living with internal alarms and denying them corrodes the soul and causes ongoing self-erasure. - Jen found it better to live honestly alone than to stay in a marriage while suffering. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker Torment. It's so torturous to live like that, to live misaligned. And also our bodies are telling us something because it's for our protection, for our good, for the highest iteration of who we can be or should be or deserve to be. So that is a trustworthy voice. And having to tell my own wisdom over and over and over, you are wrong. There's no way that you are right. You don't know what you know. You're not experiencing what you're experiencing. You're not seeing what you're seeing. The amount of self-erasure self denial that that takes on repeat is so painful. It's so corrosive. I just, I felt my own soul eroding. And so then I'm having to live inside this world that I have co-created in which there is this version out here that you see that I want. I want this version, by the way. I'm not even making it up to be fancy. I want it. I want that marriage to work. I want us to go the distance. I want to rock our grandbabies on the porch. I want to be reconnected. I want us to be having sex again. Like, I want all that. But I'm not having it. I'm over here. I'm back here living what is actual. And this gap, I never want to live in it again. Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never. I just, uh, that that cost is too high. ([Time 0:18:29](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7c7ae9a0-319a-4dea-a6fc-1915dd9539f3)) - **Eviction Notice vs. Early Choice** - Waiting for an "eviction notice" hands away personal agency and usually increases trauma and loss. - Some people choose change early; many must endure flames to reach freedom. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker Right. It's not free. There is a cost and you're paying it. So you're paying the entry fee to keeping the peace, whatever that means. Because I was wanting to keep peace. I wanted this the way I wanted it. And so it was me that was going to have to shapeshift to make that keep working. But to your point, it's like an invisible light item on the spreadsheet. I just was willing to pretend that that was not so costly. I look often at women who make this choice for themselves, who somehow have the fortitude and the courage to look at their life as it is, not as they want it to be. As it is. And to admit, I'm going to admit that this is exactly what it is without me trying to polish it up or shine it up or prop it up or fix it or whatever the hell. And then they choose the right path before the scorched earth. I didn't. I didn't. I've seen people do it. And somebody asked me recently, do you think that you have to go through in general, any given person, this level of like loss and disruption and suffering to get to this place. And I'm like, I don't think you have to. I've seen people choose it. But most of us have to go through some flames to get there. ([Time 0:22:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d9544fa0-a1d8-4434-99b0-eb6d665954df)) - **Prioritize Health Over Staying For Appearances** - Consider that staying 'for the children' can harm everyone if the marriage is toxic. - Prioritize raising healthy adults rather than preserving an unhealthy household for appearances. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker God, so true. It's just not tidy. None of it is. And any given marriage, I don't really care who you are. It's not just you and your spouse. You know, divorce breaks a million hearts. Like that was my parent's son-in That was my sibling's brother. Brother-in that was my kid's dad. Like in our friend group, that was my best friend's best friend. Like it is the shrapnel is massive. And anyone who does not consider that, I don't think is telling the truth or they're that self-deluded. And so it's very, it's a very real deterrent to go, what about everybody else? And I know, shit, we have been told to say that question to ourselves since we were born. What about everybody else? I mean, that was, that was basically my childhood mantra. What about everybody else? How can you behave so that everybody else can be happy? You know, I mean, I recognize the pitfall. But also in a real human life, everybody else factors into your life. And these decisions matter to them too. And so with the idolization, frankly, of marriage, in my subculture, for sure, it is a very real temptation to stay for the kids. But I mean, I can tell you, this is not interesting or innovative or new. I can only tell you that it's new to me because I am now the person who has lived this story, which is that it again, in the same way that I just said earlier, it is better to be single and free Than married and miserable. Turns out it's also better for the kids to have divorced parents who are healthy and whole and no longer like in a toxic spiral than married parents who are creating a living nightmare Inside the home. That's worse. And they are, kids are resilient. You know, they really are. ([Time 0:27:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4578f0f9-3e09-4ffc-afad-6e5ad02bc568)) - **A Lifetime Of Shape-Shifting** - Jen describes a lifetime of 'shape-shifting' to keep peace, which she later identified as codependency. - She cleaned up others' behaviors and managed impressions from early in the relationship onward. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker Yeah. I had a very locked and loaded magical wand and inside its interior was just a limitless supply of codependency. Just kept renewing. It kept renewing and never ran out the wand. And I practiced it for so many years that it was just like, it's amazing. Abby Wambach Okay. Tell the people about codependency because I, like you, was like, that's some horseshit for people who aren't independent. Thanks. And then also, Jen, tell us what it – like actual behaviors are. Glennon Doyle Like if you might be a human Zamboni. So many of my friends are human Zambonis where their husband says some shit or does some shit or isn't just douche and then they real quick just say things to like – there's like the nervous Giggle and the cleaning up after him and the distracting. He's just kidding. Like the Zamboni of every man moment is a very, you might be in trouble if. What else? Jen Hatmaker That was my preferred approach for codependency. Because I also thought that codependency meant neediness. And that's not something I ever identified with. So I didn't understand the definition. But when I learned about it, and realized that really, it's it's any consistent effort to control somebody else's behavior, choices, actions, the way that they're living their life, And also the way anybody else is perceiving that person. And then letting their actions completely affect me, completely take me. I'm like, oh, oh, like I have a PhD in codependency. I did not know that. And so for me, practically, this started essentially probably on our second date. ([Time 0:33:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f0267c08-35cd-4712-8e4c-b9f9f48a7265)) - **What Codependency Actually Looks Like** - Codependency looks like persistent efforts to control others' choices and others' perceptions of them. - Jen discovered this pattern ran through her marriage, parenting, and friendships and worsened outcomes. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker Else? That was my preferred approach for codependency. Because I also thought that codependency meant neediness. And that's not something I ever identified with. So I didn't understand the definition. But when I learned about it, and realized that really, it's it's any consistent effort to control somebody else's behavior, choices, actions, the way that they're living their life, And also the way anybody else is perceiving that person. And then letting their actions completely affect me, completely take me. I'm like, oh, oh, like I have a PhD in codependency. I did not know that. And so for me, practically, this started essentially probably on our second date. Like, it goes way back. So it was, you know how I like to be in the world. I like to be like a little, whatever this is. Yeah, shiny, sparkly. You're a glitter bug, I'm a glitter bug, as they say. And I started dating a person that was difficult, just a difficult person, not saying it with social cues or skills. Um, very, could be considered rude and biting. And I didn't like that, but I was 18. I was a baby. I was a child baby. And so I learned very, very early to go behind and do the cleanup work. Like after the fact, like he was just tired. You know, the amount of people that I told over the course of 26 years, oh, you know, he likes you. You know, he does is a million. Like, no, he does like you. And that was my labor, my voluntary labor. And then I had a second layer of my labor, which was then to go to him privately and just be a real bitch, like scold him. And adult men love to be scolded. They do. I've heard that. That is great for connectivity, for intimacy. That is a real grief in the machine of marriage. Abby Wambach It's also a turn on to be a woman, a turn on for you to be treating your husband as a child. Jen Hatmaker I always wanted to parent a spouse. That is my dream. I would like to be your mother and your sexual partner. Isn't that just, is that, will this work or no? You know? So that, as you can well imagine, created so much resentment in our marriage. And I get to own that, by the way. I get to raise my little hand and go, that was my pattern. And I would have hated being on the receiving end of that. Not once, not twice, but for two decades. So that me trying to micromanage his behavior and then and then everybody else's experience of him and i did a real razzle dazzle for that you know i'm good at it so i could come behind and Razzle dazzle it so i could talk people into to not experiencing what they were experiencing with him. But it didn't work. It turns out people experience what they experience. And so that was a real painful part of my recovery process, because I took that right into therapy. ([Time 0:34:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b64c13b3-e960-436d-b366-f178e990642a)) - **Control And Optics Breed Resentment** - Trying to control outcomes and optics breeds resentment and disconnect rather than protection. - Jen learned that her behind-the-scenes labor didn't change reality and often made things worse. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker Can you imagine how that could not result in a beautiful connected marriage? Like that was a real faulty brick in the wall. And, and that, that is such a relational killer. And so this is part of my lifelong problem because I have always been overly attached to outcomes, to optics. I very much want you to like me. I very much want you to like my person. I want you to like my husband. I want you to like my kids. I want you to like my family. I don't want you to think shitty thoughts about one of these people that are in my crew. Um, even if they deserve it, like even if they behaved in such a way to deserve it, I don't want that. So how, how can I do that? I've done that with my children, like their choices. Um, I don't want. And so how can I fix that? You know, I don't want that. How can I make that different than it is? Like, I want you to do a different thing than what you've done. And so, um, so that has looked like lecturing. Because now they're young adults. Like, they don't live here. So my control mechanisms have had to shapeshift. But I am learning to release those chains. I am learning to sort of, it's not like I ever had control. The whole thing's a lie. Like, it's a lie. It's not like it worked. It's not as if any of my complicated behind the scenes labor made a hill of beans of difference. It is, it not only does it not work and makes everything worse. It's not neutral. ([Time 0:40:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8246c297-e43a-4132-a698-2487f1482bee)) - **Kids Saw A Steady Parent, Not The Pain** - Jen's son told her he had forgotten she was sad because she kept the family steady while hiding her pain. - She realized her children often saw the best iteration of her despite her internal struggle. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker It's so funny because one of my sons read Awake like two weeks ago. Oh, you know, and that's always, you just kind of chew your fingernails off, you know, when the kids are up in your shit that you've written. You know, to some degree, I just want them out of my world. Like, just go be wherever you are in your like the things that I'm not on, whatever the things are. Like, I don't want to be on your Snapchat. I don't want to I don't want to see you being real. So no, thank you. But it was so funny because he came to me and he said, mom, it's so interesting to read your story, um, through the divorce and like the, the recovery process, because he said, I forgot Like all along that you were a person in this story. He said, you just, you kept our ship so steady and you, you were our like North star so hard. I forgot you were sad. And I was like, wow, I was shocked to hear that. I felt like I was a, like a disastrous, weepy panic attack, having mess in this home, um, for a year. But it is interesting that our kids do get to see what I hope they see is the best possible iteration of ourselves at any given time. ([Time 0:56:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2c1bfa67-da56-47c3-8628-fc89ab5a6dcd)) - **Tell The Truth To Yourself First** - Start by telling yourself the truth about what isn't working and what you want in private. - Then speak it aloud to someone who loves you to reduce fear and clarify next steps. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker So in hindsight, I mean, I did it after somebody else chose it for me. So what I'm saying is if you are staring, if there is the this version out here, but you're back here and you know what's true and this gap has broken your heart and you can't tolerate it Anymore. I think this is what would have had to happen in my life. If this is a little bit prescriptive, I don't know how to make it different. But I think the first thing, and maybe the hardest thing, would have been telling myself the truth. I just couldn't do it. I did not want to tell my own brain what I knew to be true. I just could not even invisibly admit that into my own thoughts. So if you are willing to just say very quietly, very privately to yourself in the mirror, here's what's true about my life. Here's what's not working. And here's what I want. That is such a humongous step. I, I didn't really even do that. Um, and so then I think the next thing you guys, I want you to weigh in on this. I think the next thing is you've got to tell somebody who loves you. Is that the next thing? I think so. Like who loves you, who loves you, who knows you, who knows whatever it is scenario that you're in and talking about, who cares about your future, who cares about your well-being. Saying it out loud to somebody takes away a little bit of the fear and a little bit of its power. ([Time 1:05:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1280cfd1-d70a-4410-864e-3c4d9119359a)) - **Speak It Out To Build Momentum** - Speak your truth to a trusted person because words become bricks that build your next actions. - Saying it aloud diminishes its power and reveals practical next steps you can take. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker I think the next thing is you've got to tell somebody who loves you. Is that the next thing? I think so. Like who loves you, who loves you, who knows you, who knows whatever it is scenario that you're in and talking about, who cares about your future, who cares about your well-being. Saying it out loud to somebody takes away a little bit of the fear and a little bit of its power. Is that right? Is that what comes next? Glennon Doyle Well, there's something about speaking it you know it with yourself i've had moments like this where i actually am sitting looking in a mirror like i'm thinking of moments like that Where i tell myself something but the speaking it to someone else it's not just about the love that comes back it's that we know world worlds are built on words it's like let there be let There be light let there be freedom, let there be love. When you speak a word that becomes a brick that then shows you the like next right thing. When I finally say something that is true about my life to Abby or to Amanda, it's amazing what unfolds next. I don't know. It's like magic, but the words do sometimes need to come first and that you don't die when you do it. ([Time 1:06:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7d044f01-f0d9-4104-be1d-0c47113d0b9f)) - **Own Your Choice Without Excuses** - Don't use infidelity as an excuse to avoid owning your choices; naming "I don't want this" is sufficient to change course. - Choose your next right move without waiting for external validation or a 'get out of jail' card. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker It is causing them harm, pain, loneliness, suffering. Um, they have outgrown the container. There is some life beyond it that is going to be vibrant and full of flourishing. And they get to pick too. They get to choose it. And so I, Glennon, the same thing for me. Somebody, an interviewer asked me recently, would you have stayed if you hadn't found out? I'm like, damn it. I think I might have. I think I might have. And that version of me is one I am challenging right now. That was just five years ago. Me that wasn't that long ago, me, but I'm trying to be honest. And I think I would have, I was fighting like hell for my marriage that day that I found out we were in, I was, I was pulling out every stop that there was, every stop that there was. And I don't think I would have number one admitted defeat, number two admitted how sad and lonely I was. And so I would love to see that narrative change where women have the freedom to make their own next right choice without catastrophe befalling them. ([Time 1:11:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f569575d-ed0d-45dc-902f-6aca59abfc47)) - **Publishing With Future Self In Mind** - Jen feels anxiety when looking beyond today's calendar and fears overexposure from sharing her story publicly. - She used a five-year self-check to ensure generosity and compassion in what she published. Transcript: Jen Hatmaker Anxious. And when I look at my calendar, for more than the day that I'm in, I have a little internal meltdown. And it's so strange because I have like, like you guys, a pretty public life, like life, but most of that public life I can do for my house. And so when my public life requires me to be on all these airplanes and in all these places and on all these, um, and they're back to back and back to back to back. I, um, I feel anxious and that's just a fact. Everybody around me knows it. They're all just like, do you think you can get through two months? And also not just the pace of it and the exposure and the socialization of it all, which is just so many people, so many words, so much, so many bodies around me. Um, but this is a tender story. Like it's, it's a lot to talk about. And so I feel absolutely, um, nervous about that. I feel like I might have overexposed myself just to hair, but it's too late. So the time for that was last year. Last year was the time for that. Because I just don't know. Like I've said things in here in the book that I just have never said. And so I just don't know about that. Anyway, I'm doing great. ([Time 1:18:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d37ba1fa-1307-4f58-b4fc-2a8797d08f5d))