Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want  ## Metadata - Author: [[We Can Do Hard Things]] - Full Title: Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/725fcf3d-9d6f-4381-9c43-c9310299c5f2 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Desire Is A Guiding Kernel** - Katie Gavin says desire is a kernel inside you that knows what you want and can guide action. - Listening to that inner signal and having courage to follow it reshapes creative and personal life. Transcript: Glennon Doyle It is about so many things. It's about how to find that little kernel of desire inside of you and how to have the courage to unleash it out into the world. It's about intergenerational healing, about how to honor what's come before us while also letting go of what we don't want to take with us into the future. It's about recovery and addiction and how to begin to make our lives that have become small bigger. It's about listening to the signals in our body. It's about how to live right now in a way that makes this planet habitable and more beautiful for the next generation. It's hard to believe that all of this is in the conversation. Amanda Doyle It's so beautiful. You'll see. It's literally one of my favorite conversations we've ever had on We Can Do Hard Things. Same. Glennon Doyle Katie Gavin is not only our personal hero, but is also a musician and member of the pop band Muna, of course. Life's so fun, life's so fun, you know, and released her debut solo album, What a Relief, which is the soundtrack of our home, this past October, 2024. It's an album about desire for connection and the obstacles in the way of achieving that. Gavin's explorations of desire and intimacy are time-worn and so necessary right now. And her songs truly are sort of like a clarion call for her generation about how to live and how to look inside yourself for guidance and move forward. ([Time 0:00:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3622f863-7026-4038-8dde-84a7c72b7746)) - **Chisel Desire By Rejecting 'Not That'** - Try things and use 'not that' feedback to chisel toward what you want. - Don't suffer through mismatches; quickly recognize and move on from what isn't right. Transcript: Glennon Doyle I truly am a person who has to learn the hard way. That's how my life's always been and will continue to be. For me, identifying desire is a lot like, you know that story of whoever it was, some famous sculptor who said that all they do is they take a rock and then they cut out what isn't the sculpture, That the sculpture is already in the rock. All they're doing is chiseling away what's not the sculpture and then the sculpture. That's what desire is for me. I have to constantly try things and go, not that, not that, not that. I know the not that. What I am good at is not suffering through the not that for too long. ([Time 0:30:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5398db8f-83b9-44e3-8ee8-b069f94fd93c)) - **Solo Album Reclaimed Her Voice** - Katie recorded solo songs while Muna worked and realized they meant something uniquely hers. - She released What A Relief to reclaim joy in songwriting and reconnect to her creative self. Transcript: Katie Gavin Really means the world and it makes me feel like I'm doing something right. And that was its own thing of like, I started getting a feeling of like, these songs like are special to me. Like I know they're not right for Muna, but they mean something to me. And deciding like, this is what I want. It might not make sense to other people. It might not actually be a smart business decision because now it's been like four years and Muna hasn't put out a new album. But I'm like, this is what I had to do. And like trusting that that's the step you have to take, like, to lead you to wherever you're going to be next know and like it really did have a pretty like divine purpose in my life in terms Of like reconnecting me to um why I fell in love with music and songwriting and um and reconnecting me to this like really like experimental part of myself we often talk about muna as um A marriage because we were like we're contractually like bound to each other and we like create the like and we make these things together and i think y'all maybe know this like naomi And i dated in college naomi was like my first queer relationship. And we broke up like a month after we got signed. And then we went to couples therapy after we broke up. And the only way that we could. Because that's when you really have to make it work. And the only way we could explain it to the therapist, we were like, we're a divorced couple that has a child yes you're co-parenting that we're co-parenting um and I think like a lesson That I've learned in Muna is like we all have to like risk um you know we have to take the risk of like leaving and growing individually and pursuing the thing that feels important and right For us and like changing um so that the relationship can stay alive the one thing that hasn't changed is that like Naomi and Joe are like my two favorite musicians and creators and like I respect their vision and opinion so much I think that's what makes a band is like like respecting somebody's vision and opinion and also um not having like a toxic environment where You can't express your opinion, you know? Um, but yeah, I think that that was like, um, that w that was a huge win for me in terms of like having a desire that I was afraid of and like not, and then not letting that stop me. Was ([Time 0:36:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5a9f9052-6125-4d7f-a9db-b99edc419dc5)) - **Bandmates Made Space For Her Solo Work** - Katie asked for studio time to record solo songs while Muna worked on their album and slowly developed the solo project. - Her bandmates supported her and set aside ego so she could pursue the record. Transcript: Katie Gavin It was really like low and slow when we, we were working on our third album. Um, and I already had like most of these songs together. And the first thing I asked was like can I take a week and go into the studio like with a group of people and just record these songs like I was like kind of this experimental project like I didn't really know what I was gonna I was thinking like I'll just put it up on band camp or something like I kind of have this like okay Katie okay I have this like like pathological attachment To like starting oh I think it maybe has to do with like like under earning type of vibe where it's like I want to I I want to like undervalue things so that I don't so that it's less vulnerable Glennon Doyle Totally yeah we can get into that oh I get that Katie oh that's yeah I'm not it's like vibes of like listen I'm not even trying I'm just I'm not even actually trying no I just I'm like I just Speaker 3 Spent like three days on it and like so there's no way it could even be good yeah you know under promise over deliver oh that was surprising look how well it did because our expectations Katie Gavin Were none yeah exactly so i think like i it's funny actually like i guess maybe i didn't really know um that it was gonna be something that like snowballed and i didn't i wasn't necessarily Being honest with myself about how much i cared about it but I like recorded this this batch of songs again we were working on the third album and I showed it to Phoebe who had just signed Us um signed Moona and um she was like are good. I want to put this out like as a solo record for you. But I want you to go back in the studio with my producer, Tony Berg, and like, work on this, like, work on it. Speaker 3 Like, spend more than three days, Katie, it's worth it. Yeah. Katie Gavin And, and I think it was a few like I felt a few different things because first of all, like the the early version I did was with my friends. And there really is something really special about like those versions of those songs. I should send them to y'all. It's like there's something really there's something really special about it just being like a group of people throwing something together. And everyone who worked on the first version of the project, I'm so grateful to. But then I had to contend with, okay am I it was a different conversation then it was like okay I think I actually want to put this out on a label and like I want to work on it um like as an album That I'm gonna put out um in a real way like with an album campaign and everything that became a different conversation and we decided that I would wait until the Muna album came out um And you know I do have to say that like I think if it had been one of them that had done it I think I would have had a harder time than like they are such like understanding and supportive friends. And they were like pretty much immediately able to like put their egos aside and let me do what I had to do. So I can't say I would have been able to do the same thing. I think I would have maybe required some band therapy sessions. ([Time 0:39:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bbe6ff04-47e1-4743-bdcb-e130779b4757)) - **'The Baton' Came From A Relay Metaphor** - Katie wrote "The Baton" after a Nashville session and a full moon ceremony, using the relay metaphor. - The song reflects generational care, healing, and passing responsibility forward. Transcript: Katie Gavin Oh, if I had a daughter, I'd know what I would tell her. I know what I would tell her when she's old enough to know. I would tell my daughter she must be her own mother. I can only take her as far as I can go. On the very same day, she told me, kind of, really, I'd pass her the baton and I'd say, you better run. Because this thing has been going for many generations. But there is so much healing that still needs to be done. But today I have no daughter, I only have a mother. And I know that my mother taught me everything she knows. And I don't want to leave her, but she's drawing near her. She's coming around the corner, I can hear her and go. Go on, girl. Tell my hands. I can't wait. Amanda Doyle I can't wait. I can't wait. My girls. And you'll understand the time it will be passed again. The time it will be passed again. Oh, Tishy man she can really you can really do it she can really do it are you crying katie oh good maybe oh my gosh so is glennon and like i was jamming last night to that song because we just Finalized that clip. And I just I cannot tell you there was there has been a point that I was playing it so often that my family is like, OK, maybe there should be a different. So then we played inconsolable. Yeah. Katie Gavin Maybe there should be a different song. It's really um kind of diabolical to make me watch a clip of tish performing it like for like with you there like i think that's really too much i think and then there was a night that my mom Speaker 3 No yeah was in the audience yeah so tish is singing to my mom we're there she did and then no and then we all poofed yeah no we're doing violence to people um agreed i had a few shows where like Katie Gavin I had different family members when i did the hollywood forever uh cemetery show or it wasn't at the cemetery it was at the masonic lodge but my mom sang it and she learned the harmony and It was now the cutest thing and also my um my older sister is pregnant and so she was there like the last time i think it was like Red Rocks which was one of the last shows on the Lucy Dacus tour That I did and like singing to my pregnant sister it's like it's really crazy it's really crazy when you're when you're actually like uh in the presence of multiple generations of women Glennon Doyle It just makes me be like I love my mom Katie, how did that start? Like I have post, I have retroactive stress that you, there's a, that there's a realm in which you didn't follow your desire and you got too scared to do it. And then you didn't make this song. And then, and I just want everybody, this is not just about Katie. This is about the little kernel in your body that thinks that you have a desire to put something that's inside your body, outside your body. And should you be brave enough to do it and just look. Speaker 3 Somehow that's selfish because like I – if you thought this doing individual was selfish, like you should know that my, I wouldn't understand my life. Glennon Doyle It's so true. So what started that kernel? And also like the layers of it, the Irish music and like the choice of the Irish sound being part of like the cultural baton of your life. Katie Gavin And just, just say anything about that song well first of all I I don't want to forget that I am really curious about um if you have any experiences with with writing and and creating where Like after your this question just kind of made me think about times where I've written something and then I get scared about alternate universes where I like lived the day a different Way and like the thing didn't get created. I wonder if that happens to you. Glennon Doyle Oh, all the time. And then I have a million things that I've written that I don't put out because I'm already scared of the alternate reality of me putting that out and what would happen, what will happen Katie Gavin To that world. Oh yeah, absolutely. But I think that the beginning of the baton came with like that metaphor of a relay race. I was in Nashville, um, again, like on a journey of trying to co-write and this was one of the first times that I actually had a successful co-writing session um uh I think like people in Nashville are a little slower and calmer and it like that was helping me but I was also like just meeting a lot of like cool young women and my friend Maddie Diaz had like had like a full moon Ceremony so I was just like I was just vibing and I remember driving and this the metaphor of the relay race like kind of crystallized for me and I remember feeling like um I think there I think I had I had heard somebody say at one point that like you have to find the metaphors for you that you can use as like oars like you have to find the metaphors that are helpful you know, Like that will move you forward on your journey. And, you know, there's so many ways to talk about like where we fall short in terms of like loving each other. And I think this image of like, maybe we're not actually like falling short generationally, but we're like fulfilling the part that was like meant for us to fulfill. And, and also we're going as far as we can, you know, like, that's just like, we're ([Time 0:45:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fce6372f-b1f3-4dec-8312-aeec5b30a508)) - **Small Recovery Steps Compound Over Years** - Recovery shrinks life initially but compounds powerfully over years of steady work. - Katie underestimated one-year change and underestimated what eight years of recovery could transform. Transcript: Glennon Doyle Where are you in it and what are you thinking about it? What am I recovering from? Or I don't even know. Just what do you want to talk about when it comes to recovery? Katie Gavin I think I'm – first of all, I think I'm like ready to begin again in a different area, which life has a way of showing you like yeah the blind spots um recovery is a slippery slope totally Totally but I also feel like um actually taking it back to this Amanda your question about like um getting in touch with our desire. I came into the rooms when I was 24 and like getting sober like that first year I was really pretty low functioning. I had so much anxiety that I drive a car. So I sold my car. I moved into a house with my best childhood friend who actually is obsessed with this podcast. So if you're listening, Becca, I love you. Hi, Becca. We love you, Becca. Hi, Becca. We love you. She's going to die. And I moved into a house with her because I kind of needed, like not necessarily supervision, but I needed like co-regulation and accountability. And I, my life was really small and I remember it like feeling really, like the progress was on such a small level. I felt like my life had like shrunk down to a little nucleus, right? And I think at that time I was like, this takes so long. It takes too long. And I'm not seeing like results that I want. I was really impatient with what was possible. And I think now it's been eight years, and I think I overestimated what would change in my life in the first year of getting sober, and I really underestimated what can change in eight Years. I think that it feels really crazy to witness in my life the actual laws of the abundance of nature, man. And it's like, if you plant a seed, and you can wait, like, it's crazy what can happen, you know? ([Time 1:00:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5e8ced57-96a9-4c02-9e95-2cb162728387)) - **Addiction Shrinks Inner Life To A Treadmill** - Katie describes love addiction as making your inner life small and binary, like a treadmill measuring worth. - Addiction can be filling your universe with one external signal that defines you moment-to-moment. Transcript: Katie Gavin And, you know, I'm sure y'all understand this. It's like, there's things that really change, there's things that really don't change like one of my um biggest addictions is like people and like if there's shiny people then I can Like get lost in fantasy and kind of like my life again like internally it becomes really small just around like one person. And so that's a little bit scary because sometimes I am just walking around and going about my life not trying to get high, you know. And all of a sudden it will happen to me, you know. Glennon Doyle Did you just say, just stop for a second. I've never heard addiction described that way before, but it's a really important way of – when your internal life gets very small around something else, is that what you said? Is it like you fill up with that thing as opposed to yourself suddenly? Katie Gavin In the cosmos. ([Time 1:03:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3b581857-7368-4965-be0f-30c88f4350d1)) - **Name Body Signals And Remove Shame** - Listen to bodily signals and name the small hurt that appears in you. - Clear shame quickly so desire signals can surface and guide choices. Transcript: Katie Gavin But sometimes I like I don't even realize that that's what I'm doing. And so being able to yeah there's something interesting in this conversation about like time and like Amanda what you're saying about like an emotion like flowing through us like just Like the idea that when we get these signals like from our body, whether it's like something hit the baby lizard or like something is like not right for us. It's not something that we want. You know, it's like working on like the ability to just be listening to like that. And there's something for me about the more I like clear away shame, the like faster and freer I am to express like, this is the message I just got. And I don't it doesn't have to be like good or bad or right or wrong but like this is the message I just got um yeah ([Time 1:14:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6ce5cfd6-62d3-4553-addd-5605549b6630)) - **Enoughness Beats Hoarding** - Katie links privilege and upbringing to a hoarding mentality and narrow definitions of success. - She aims to prioritize rich community over endless resource accumulation in her values. Transcript: Katie Gavin Um a group for people that have um like some kind of inherited wealth who are interested in like redistribution um and it has been such a fascinating like process and home for political Education to think about. I was raised in the North Shore of Chicago, which is like a very white, wealthy bubble. And I really do believe that there is like a very strong like white supremacist culture that has certain characteristics that I really like took in when I was younger. There's certain things like being like averse to conflict uh like privileging um like quantitative signs of success over like a physical feeling in your body you know like um and I think Also I still struggle with like you know growing up in a in a bubble like that there's a really um like narrow um idea of success and um and like valuable like people. And I think I had to do a lot of like unlearning to, to understand like, it's okay if that's not what success looks like for me. And that's not the kind of like life that I want to live. And that doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for everything that my parents have like given me. ([Time 1:17:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/07c8d851-439b-4631-8c23-a59bddf30756)) - **Structure Activism For Sustainment** - Use your phone and small consistent relationships to sustain political engagement. - Join accountable groups and actions that keep you aligned with values and prevent drifting away. Transcript: Katie Gavin I think a big thing for me is using my phone, like not just as a platform, but as a way to like, I there's like four or five families that I speak to on a semi regular basis. And just like connecting on a human to human level and being like, what's up? What's going on today? Where are you? You're talking about Palestinian families. Palestinian families. And it's not for me, like, I have had to orient my life and my activism in a way that I know it's it's not like this is easy it's not like this is easy to like look at in a sustainable way um and I found that for me having a few people that are gonna message me and say like how are you doing Katie like this is what's going on with me today like that keeps my eyes um like on this genocide In a way that's sustainable and also like I have there's other things for me like going to direct actions I don't do it necessarily because it's like because I think it's the most effective Way to organize but I do it because I'm the kind of like ADHD person where I get such a buzz from being in the streets with other people who like believe the same thing that I do that that actually Keeps me going. I'm a part of resource generation because then I'm accountable to like be with people every other Monday who like are like amazing activists who push me, you know, like I have to set up My life in ways that make me less likely to like slip away from my values, you know? Yeah, I do. So good. ([Time 1:28:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2089358b-746a-4f66-9adf-7241cd75d8c4))