LIVE From Denver With Nora Jones!  ## Metadata - Author: [[Changelog Master Feed]] - Full Title: LIVE From Denver With Nora Jones! - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/296d3bed-cc1e-4cb2-9210-33ce151eed51 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Jelly's Origin Story** - Nora Jones founded Jelly in 2019 inspired by her prior engineering experience handling incidents at major companies. - Jelly was born from a desire to improve communication and learning during incidents that she personally wished she had. Transcript: Jerod Santo I'm sure you could do that in 30 seconds. Nora Jones Yeah, absolutely. So I started Jelly in 2019, and prior to that, I had spent my career as an engineer dealing with incidents. I was working at Netflix. I worked at a company called Jet.com which got acquired by Walmart. I worked at Slack for a bit and I was kind of doing similar roles in each of these companies and what I really learned through these companies was the power of post-incident reviews and How they could really rally an organization to drive change and focus on understanding other people in the organization's perspective and what I really started realizing was how Much could be learned from how we speak to each other during incidents. So how we talk to each other in Slack, when there's gaps in communication, who we bring in, why we bring them in, what they're doing. To build more expertise within organizations and really understand where discrepancies and misalignment lie in a productive way. So Jelly was a product that we built based on real problems I was experiencing. It was really a tool I wished I had had in some of those situations. And so that was where it was born. And I'm, you know, very, very nerdy about incidents and that topic and reliability. And, you know, I've been a PagerDuty user my whole career. And so the acquisition came up. It wasn't something I was looking for, but I've, you know, admired PagerDuty, and I actually was like, this could be really good for the industry, actually having these products together And interconnected. So it made sense to me, and yeah, here we are. ([Time 0:04:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4a4f37c9-0ad6-4fd4-b11b-59c72f600413)) - **Acquisition Advice from Nora** - When considering acquisition, focus on the benefit to the industry and product reach, not just personal gain. - Align your product with a bigger platform to maximize impact and distribution. Transcript: Nora Jones And I'm, you know, very, very nerdy about incidents and that topic and reliability. And, you know, I've been a PagerDuty user my whole career. And so the acquisition came up. It wasn't something I was looking for, but I've, you know, admired PagerDuty, and I actually was like, this could be really good for the industry, actually having these products together And interconnected. So it made sense to me, and yeah, here we are. Adam Stacoviak How did you feel about the acquisition process? You said you didn't plan for it. How did it come about? Did they reach out to you? Were they fans? Were they users? Nora Jones Yeah, no, I mean, so the first two integrations that we built for Jelly, like before we even had customers, were Slack and PagerDuty. So we were like really tightly integrated, right? And the integration we had with PagerDuty was getting on-call schedules. So we were using the on-call schedules to figure out if people were actually supposed to be there during incidents or if we were pooling in people that weren't on-call. Because that can indicate, oh, there's a knowledge silo, an expertise gap, right? If we're constantly relying on people that the business didn't actually plan to be there. So that was the first integration that we built with PagerDuty. And so, you know, I spoke at one of PagerDuty's conferences in, I think it was 2020. It was like their first remote conference. And so we had always kind of been friendly and maintained a you know relationship for a few years and then you know they they reached out and asked if like we wanted to have more serious Conversations and so I started exploring it and that it just kind of made sense you know we had been doing Jelly for five years and it was either we develop our own like on-call solution And expand that way or we join, you know, the most powerful player in the industry with that. ([Time 0:06:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b9e31c02-1748-4ce8-bfca-14dcece75e0e)) - **Jelly Expands in PagerDuty** - Jelly is integrated into PagerDuty and made available across all plans to increase accessibility. - Expanding features to more customers reflects true product value beyond tiered pricing limits. Transcript: Nora Jones Yeah, so it's within PagerDuty. So one of the things, so I spent the first year helping integrate the platform, helping integrate the cultures, right? It's very different bringing a 20-person company to a 1,200 company. And some of these people had never worked at an organization bigger than 30 folks. So, know, there was some adjustment there. And then one of the things I noticed was within PagerDuty's pricing and packaging, there were parts of the incident life cycle that were almost limited to the enterprise plan. And so they immediately put Jelly on the enterprise plan, but I started realizing there's really more of the incident lifecycle that should go downstream to all plans, right? ([Time 0:09:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4e31c92e-476e-4b0e-ac69-1962579c929a)) - **Customer Reaction to Acquisition** - Most Jelly customers were already PagerDuty users, so acquisition brought positive reactions with smoother integrations. - Customers welcomed the filling of product gaps and long-awaited features within PagerDuty. Transcript: Nora Jones I mean so when we got acquired, 90% of our customers were PagerDuty's customers. And the very first customer I sold to with Jelly, giant enterprise company, right, which is very rare for startups. And so all of a sudden, most of the companies that were using us were large enterprise companies, which is a lot for a tiny startup. You're kind of trying to act a lot bigger than you are. Someone wants to talk to the salesperson. I'm like, let me go put on this other hat and I will be your salesperson for a second. Ed Chambers? Yeah, exactly. And just actually lost my train of thought. Sorry about that. Adam Stacoviak Good job, Adam. Nora Jones No, no, no. I forgot the question. Well, you were saying putting on different hats. Adam Stacoviak You were going from founder to sales to janitor. Nora Jones Oh, you were asking how customers reacted. Because we shared so many of the same customers, those customers reacted really well. They were already using both of us, so it's like a new integration that will just make it work even better together. Eventually, one piece of paper, no multiple contract cycles. And then I think the other thing is like, you know, PagerDuty was originally created to page folks. And PagerDuty has done a lot more than that over time as well. But I think we were also filling a critical area of the platform that hadn't been invested in much. And so a lot of customers were like, oh, this has been, you know, on our user voice request list for years. And now, you know, it's finally happening. So, yeah, we've had a positive reaction. ([Time 0:12:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3135b0d9-fd74-4ed2-9878-e16cf627b6aa)) - **Different Hats Offer New Perspectives** - Transitioning from engineer to executive reveals a deeper understanding of diverse organizational roles and perspectives. - Post-incident reviews often exclude non-engineering teams, highlighting a gap in company-wide incident learning. Transcript: Nora Jones I mean, I've been reflecting on this a lot recently and there's a lot of stages of grief involved in it, too, you know. But I had been an engineer my entire career prior to starting Jelly, and so I actually had grief, you know, from being a CEO and not being in the code, right? Like, I would, you know, want dopamine hits, so I'd go update our marketing site every now and then just to feel like I was doing something, even though I was doing all these different Things. But I also realized part of the reason I started Jelly was after incidents in an organization, a lot of the time, every role is impacted in some way. But also a lot of the time, if there is a post-incident review, it's just done by engineering. And they're not going and talking to marketing or sales or customer support necessarily. Like, it's usually done in a vacuum. Or even executives. And I started realizing, like, as an executive, as a CEO of Jelly, that I had my own sharp end. I had my own area of expertise that like, you know, when I was an engineer, I always kind of felt like, oh, executives don't get it, right? Like, they don't get like, you know, but then when I was an executive, I was like, oh, I didn't get it back then, right? Like, I was able to see a different side of the coin. And so I'm bringing all this up because now I get to be in a new role in a large organization where I've worked at large organizations before, but always as an individual contributor engineer. And so from my perspective, I'm like, oh, I'm like learning another side of this coin. And so it's really interesting to me to have played all these different roles. So that's, you know, kind of where I'm at right now is like, I'm learning a lot, you know, I'm getting to run pricing at a large public company right now. And it's fun, and it's challenging. And I'm just kind of enjoying where I'm at right now and taking it a day at a time. ([Time 0:15:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0796d675-2b35-4f11-87ce-98e78ba9c5d4)) - **Linking Product Strategy to Pricing** - Align product strategy with pricing and growth to create cohesive business roadmaps. - Use insights from product usage to inform pricing and drive customer value. Transcript: Nora Jones So good question. So, um, the role I have is, is head of product strategy and growth. And I think that product strategies should really drive pricing and drive like how you organize yourself, how you ship your product. Uh, and so I'm really helping with like the forwardlooking roadmap along with my colleagues and taking input from them and then leveraging that to drive pricing. So I do have those three different units under me. And I am wearing a lot of hats right now. I am hiring. So if you know anyone, please let me know. ([Time 0:18:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a65284d5-394b-4317-9f61-4d5a1825b8af)) - **AI Eases Tedium in Incident Tasks** - AI will best support handling tedious and repetitive incident tasks, freeing humans for complex problem solving. - Tools like AI shift agents can automate scheduling, addressing common frustrations in incident management. Transcript: Nora Jones I mean, I'm thinking about it in a lot of different ways right now. I think every single company in the world right now is trying to figure out how to use AI, how to develop policies around it. And, you know, for B2B SaaS companies, they're trying to figure out how to monetize it. Yeah. And everyone's in the early days of it, but also everyone's kind of going through that because that's how the market is reacting, right? It's there's expectations around that. I think especially within software reliability, you know, my take is on focusing on when the agents fail, because that will be the case. And, you know, pager duty has been the one that you call in those situations. And so where my head's at right now is how do we keep being that for folks, even in this new age? And how do we help them with the parts of pager duty that are tedious or annoying? So for example, we're developing a shift agent that takes care of your schedules for you, because I know that is the largest complaint. Adam Stacoviak Beautiful. I love that. Nora Jones Yeah. So shift agent. Yeah. Shift agent. So it's like things like that. You know, I, I, I'm not a huge fan of, of AI that I feel like takes away the necessary human tasks, but it's like the, the things that feel tedious or boring. ([Time 0:21:09](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5692d00a-7998-4fb5-8a45-7e8a59b0d536)) - **AI-Induced Novel Incidents** - Incidents caused by AI agents can be novel and surprising, such as a code base being deleted unintentionally. - These demonstrate both the risks and learning opportunities of AI in production. Transcript: Nora Jones Yeah. I mean, we are going to have incidents that we have no idea how to predict right now, and they are going to involve things that no one internally wrote and so we also have to figure out how To debug them and I think that is going to be challenging I think the level of incidents we have are going to reach this rate where they're very challenging for a little bit we're going To understand them a little bit more and it's going to normalize, but I don't think we've hit that point yet, right? So I think we're all kind of like bracing ourself for it. I even saw someone was using, I think it was Replit and they deleted, Replit deleted the entire code base during an incident. It was like a new, and the agents apologizing, like, oh yeah, sorry, I really shouldn't have done that. Adam Stacoviak That's bad. That's normally when you would fire somebody. That's straight up out of Silicon Valley, okay? Season six, that happened. The TV show. Nora Jones Yeah. Jerod Santo So when we were in Seattle, when was that, May? Yeah, May. For Microsoft Build. There was a, I don't know if it was a demo or a video. There were some claims that I didn't substantiate ([Time 0:26:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c66fb41a-7f0d-4dd1-b515-ff60830d73ac)) - **Complex Incidents from Misused Tech** - Some incidents stem from pushing technology beyond its intended use or lacking expertise. - Resolving these requires live investigation into original design intent and expected behaviors. Transcript: Nora Jones Recent? Jerod Santo No, just whenever. Nora Jones I mean, yeah, I have my favorite incidents. I always joke that when I'm old, I'm just going to be reciting incident numbers because, you know, like 712 still sticks in my head and 659. Like I remember those incidents because I basically slept in the office that night, you know, trying to resolve it. I mean, a lot of the incidents were trying to figure out, in a very simple way, how a piece of technology was supposed to work. And a lot of the times, we had put the technology through the paces and almost leveraged it to do the things that it wasn't meant to do, right? Like console, for example, Kafka, like those, those have been in some pretty hairy incidents in my experience. Uh, and a lot of the time it's because we implemented them without having deep subject matter expertise in them. Uh, and then, you know, we also saw the power and the flexibility of some of it and used it for things that it wasn't necessarily meant to be used for. And then a lot of the folks that design those things don't work at the company anymore, right? So then you're trying to figure out live what the intention was of this decision and what the expectation was and what's actually happening. ([Time 0:31:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9f3b186e-11cc-4947-b47b-e7e8e193843e)) - **Navigating Integration and Pricing** - Integrate acquired products into existing offerings gradually to manage complexity and culture shifts. - Persistently advocate for pricing alignment with product value to gain approval for changes. Transcript: Adam Stacoviak Take us tactically into forming that team, strategy, rejiggering, PagerDuty product, pricing. Like how did you rethink a lot of what was going on there? Yeah. Nora Jones So when I joined PagerDuty, we had like two main product orgs. We had incident management and then we had another product org that was doing automation and AI. And it was like kind of focusing on other use cases. So like CS users or, um, FinOps, you know? Uh, so we obviously went into the incident management organization. Um, there was, you know, no team around post incident reviews. Um, and they did have an integration team that was in charge of a bunch of different integrations. So like service now, um, data dog, uh, that team was also in charge of the Slack integration, but it had been very underinvested in. So they, you know, I obviously had the team I came in with, and then I also had the chat experience team is what we called it, which was our Slack and Teams integrations. And so the very first task we had to do was, you know, we were obviously selling Jelly standalone prior to the acquisition. The very first task we had to do was to get it into one of the existing pager duty plans, which was the enterprise plan. And working at a startup, I was using products that get things into SKUs really quickly, and I didn't realize the complexities of it in a large organization. That'll take like 20 minutes. That did not take 20 minutes. So I learned a lot about that process. And then it was also taking the existing PagerDuty Slack app and bringing all the Jelly functionality into that Slack app. So that took about a year to really fully integrate. And it's live, so you should check it out. And then you know midway through the year that was when I kind of had that realization that our pricing wasn't totally matching our value and so I just you know kind of like I just kept sharing It in meetings over and over again until I think I annoyed enough people that they were like okay you can go do it and then I ended up in the head of pricing role after that. ([Time 0:32:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f445cd9c-a958-42f5-a80e-8c93df3bb972)) - **Data-Driven Customer Engagement** - Focus on user data and behavior to identify areas ripe for automation and value growth. - Reach out proactively to customers to tailor product adoption and improve outcomes. Transcript: Adam Stacoviak Growth at Jelly, OG Jelly, was probably different than growth at PagerDuty. Can you go into some of the details of how it's different, how it's changed? Is it scary? Is it just way bigger? You have more money to spend, bigger distribution because you have much more customers. What's it like? Nora Jones I mean, yeah, we have way more customers, right? At Jelly, I had personal phone numbers of all of our customers, right? That's not able to be the case at PagerDuty. And so I also have to, I think customer relationships are so important, but I obviously can't have relationships with all of our customers now. So I also have to, like, use more discernment and I try to form relationships based on where I'm seeing usage. You know, so, like, for example, we have an incident roles function or capability in the product. And I, you know, and we obfuscate a lot of the data, but I could see like people were creating a manual scribe role. And we actually have like automation that does that for you, right? So that no one's like typing the entire Zoom call, which is, you know, not, that's not a great use of time. Like that would actually be a good use of AI. So, you know, I'll, I'll reach out in those situations. And that's sort of really how I think about it. I'm thinking about it from the customer relationship perspective. And I'm also thinking about it in terms of like an entire incident life cycle from like detecting to triaging to mobilizing a team to resolving to learning. If I see customers that are like only here, I try to go talk to them because when you're only in the detect and like the noise phase without having standard processes all the way over here, You're going to end up in this hamster wheel and you could actually drive a lot more improvement and save a lot more time. So that's really how I think about it is just in terms of customer value, which I think is where my background really helps. Like I really love being in this role because I've been a user. ([Time 0:36:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4dc27964-74e0-4053-a284-4f98ff6ce191)) - **AI Accelerates Remote Product Work** - AI accelerates product development by quickly aligning teams with visuals and ideas, especially in remote settings. - It’s critical to target AI use toward assisting repetitive tasks, not eliminating essential human expertise. Transcript: Nora Jones Mean, I think it has driven some of our product roadmap, but it's also made us faster in a lot of ways. I don't spend a lot of time coding in my organization because that's not my best value to the customers or to the company or to the folks I'm managing. But what I have found AI useful and is not just driving the product roadmap, it's actually aligning folks. Right? I can have it, you know, if I have an idea or if I've been seeing a lot of customer data, I can mock up something really quickly and have a conversation with our engineers, our designers, And our executives way more quickly than I could have otherwise, right? We don't have to spend a lot of time, like in a lot of design cycles, getting that initial wire frame, we can just start to visualize. And so I think it's been really actually helpful with remote work from that perspective, especially when you can't get in a whiteboard with someone. So I do think it's made us faster. Like I think we would be slower. Sure. I would certainly be slower without it. Jerod Santo I think in terms of- Just like Air Jordans. I mean, you run faster with the nice Jordans. What's that? I was just, I was making a joke. It was bad. You run faster if you have Jordans. Nora Jones Yes. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. So, but yeah, in terms of the product roadmap, like, you know, I don't think there's never going to be a world where we have zero incidents. And so I think those are some of the wrong problems to go after with AI, is trying to get to zero incidents. It's more to handle the more well-understood stuff so that engineers can focus their time on things that only they can do rather than things that agents or AI can help with. I think the whole industry is going to get it wrong in some cases. We are very new at this, and we're all kind of like stumbling toddlers with AI right now, right? And so we're going to mess up, And I think we just have to like reflect on here's a good use for it. And here's a not so good use for it rather than trying to use it for everything. ([Time 0:39:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f0ff2223-eb8d-4bbe-92d5-77870d8e7650)) - **Balancing AI and Expertise** - AI can enhance subject matter expertise by mapping organizational knowledge through communication patterns. - Risks include AI hallucination and humans losing trust in their own judgment. Transcript: Nora Jones I'm definitely concerned about that. I think there's ways that it increases subject matter expertise. You know, I started Jelly before all of this, you know, was really happening. And my honest vision for Jelly was there is so much data in how you communicate that you can learn what Adam's expertise is and what Jared's expertise is just by how they're talking, right? Like, oh, we notice we pull Adam in for every issue we have with this particular code base. And so we start making this like map of Adam's expertise and we can start to download how Adam knows what he knows and how he does what he does. Or doesn't. Or doesn't. And making that like searchable. And so I always wanted to put AI in jelly, but it was, and then all of everything changed. And so I actually think it could really enhance subject matter expertise because it has a look into your whole organization. I think the challenge is with hallucination with that, right? Like, is it going to make up stuff that it's not actually seeing? And I also think that humans could stop trusting their own judgment sometimes. I'll always test myself sometimes. If I feel like I'm personally using AI too much, I will ask it a question that I know I have a lot of expertise in just to see how it does. And I feel like that helps me come back to earth sometimes just to make sure I'm staying grounded. But I think, you know, we all have that personal responsibility. But it's also, you know, it's going to change the way we talk to each other. Like, I think a lot about the language aspects of it. And, you know, I about like like kids that are probably learning with that now like how are they going to talk to each other in the workspace you know in a certain amount of time so anyway Those those are things that yeah yeah to ([Time 0:43:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/491eb1f5-87fd-4748-8d59-c810fa71bf52)) - **Build Balanced Teams and Be Present** - Use team insights during hiring to complement existing expertise, not duplicate it. - Tools like Granola help managers stay present and effective in one-on-one meetings. Transcript: Adam Stacoviak I imagine that's a great tool as a leader because you want to spend one-on with folks. Some of the team you know really well because you brought them with you from Jelly, but some you're bringing on. And as a leader, you want to know what their strengths and weaknesses are. Do you have that kind of insight? Is that what you're talking about where you can sort of like probe into your team to say, okay, Jared's really good at this and Adam's really good at that and you have the AI kind of like Learn it for you and you can sort of prompt whatever it might be to learn more about your team. Nora Jones I haven't been using it for that perspective but I do you know as I as I build out my org and I'm interviewing folks right now and I've interviewed folks that are like really great and clearly Experts in a certain position but I'm also thinking about the expertise of the current team I have right and if like there's these four different areas I need expertise in with pricing For example if I already have someone in that bucket and I'm interviewing someone that you know also has the same expertise that's not going to maybe be valuable for me to hire that person, Even though they're great. And so I do think that that could be helpful in terms of just creating teams that work really well together and looking at where someone's strength is. Like I have someone on the pricing team that like loves to go into the data right like data expert but is not as like proactive with like you know talking to sales and talking to customers Right and so like as I was looking for my next person I was like I really need someone that is like doing that in the organization I don't necessarily need them to be a deep expert in the data Because I already have that. And so, you know, but I know that just because I interact with my team a lot. I think if you are running a large org that, you know, that might be helpful. I also, I use Granola, which is really, really great. ([Time 0:46:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a57d09b3-fcbd-4f67-9fc4-cd4c8b27e225)) - **Tool Integration Needs Culture Shift** - Connecting PagerDuty with many organizational tools enhances signal prioritization and reduces noise. - Sharing incident learnings across departments requires cultural change beyond tool capabilities. Transcript: Nora Jones If I'm understanding your question correctly, how can customers that are using PagerDuty best set it up so that they're creating a learning environment? Adam Stacoviak Yeah, because these things are hard. And how do you help leverage making that easier? Nora Jones Yeah. So one of the things I really appreciate about PagerDuty is how they've developed their integration system. You know, we don't expect customers to use this for everything, but we do, you do get the most value out of it if you're connecting it to all the other tools that you're using. So there's over 700 integrations and like you can also build your own. And I think that is the best way to get the value out of it because then we can understand all the signals that you might be seeing and really help you prioritize if something is a really Urgent signal that deserves human attention versus not. That's where, you know, I think that's where I see setup go awry is when folks don't spend the time to set it up that way and then it just becomes more noisy than it needs to be. But if you are really taking a look at your overall company and being like, we use this product here, we use this, you know, product here and really connecting it to PagerDuty, it's going To be a lot more valuable of a system that is not just learning from all that, but it's also surfacing a lot of that to you as well. Adam Stacoviak Do you see that as a good way to interact or get that information to the parts outside of just the engineering and expose that understanding. Nora Jones Yeah. Adam Stacoviak So, um, so you restate that question, please. Yeah. Nora Jones So the question was, do you see that just for engineering? Are you exposing it to everybody? So that is something that was always on my mind with jelly is just like not keeping these learnings in a vacuum with just engineering. And it is challenging. It is like not an issue a tool can totally solve. It has to be a cultural change. It has to be an engineer going and talking to the person that launched a campaign and learning more about their world, right? And I think we really try to facilitate that. Like, we show you all the people that were involved in an incident, even people that were just lurking, right? Which can be really interesting sometimes. Like, hey, why did Legal Hub on to lurk, right? Go DM that legal person and ask that, like, hey, I'm just, you know, re-evaluating this incident. I'd love to know what your interest was in it, right? And I think what we really try to provide with the platform is a way to make that less awkward. Because it's like you're just looking at the data. And the data points say that these different folks joined. So it's worthwhile to talk to them to get this holistic view of what really happened. And so I think that's how we're really facilitating it. That's ([Time 1:06:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/842a571b-5922-4303-bfd2-1e880498feda)) - **Reliability Lessons from Hardware and Aviation** - Nora’s early career in hardware shaped her high-stakes view of reliability. - Influences like Netflix Chaos Engineering and aviation human error guides molded her approach to reliability. Transcript: Nora Jones You know, I really started, I actually started my career in hardware. I studied computer engineering and I went directly to a home security and like smart home company. It's terrifying having that as your first job as like a reliability person because if you mess up someone's house might get robbed so that was that was stressful and then I saw this job Opening at an e-commerce company for a software engineer and I you know that's not that wasn't technically my role right I was doing less web development and doing more hardware. Um, but I looked at some of the traits that were needed. Um, it was like a developer productivity and reliability role. And I was like, you know, I, I do a bunch of this now. And so I just applied, uh, and I joined the org and, um, they were having incidents multiple times a day, every day. Um, The company was growing so quickly that there wasn't even a place to do our incident reviews. So we used to do them in the hallway every morning. And it was like the hallway next to the bathroom. So people were going in and out of it. It was bananas. And I was really trying to get creative. My boss at that point was like, do whatever you want. Like, I don't care. Like, we can just try things. And I found what Netflix was doing, which was called Chaos Engineering. And I started reading a lot about it, and I was like, wow, this is, like, really, really interesting because there is a big organizational psychology to reliability, too. It's not something that can just be fixed by fixing code. And so I started experimenting with it, and I was really influenced by Netflix. I started actually, I stumbled into the field guide for human error, which is in the aviation space. And so all of those things I think were really fundamental to my passion now and what I ended up following to learn more about it. ([Time 1:10:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9012ea62-4fe7-44ca-9ce0-acff55f0579e))