Love Over Dominance: John Fugelsang on the Future of Christianity  ## Metadata - Author: [[For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast]] - Full Title: Love Over Dominance: John Fugelsang on the Future of Christianity - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/696248ae-88e1-4837-9650-2cfcffb27f76 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Authoritarian Christianity Distorts Jesus' Message** - John Fugelsang argues authoritarian Christianity hijacks Jesus' teachings for power rather than love and service. - He maps this distortion across history and contemporary politics to show it's a political movement, not the Gospel. Transcript: John Fugelsang I really, I wanted to write a book that took down authoritarian Christianity using the actual teachings of Jesus. And I wanted to do it in a way that was for both believers and non-believers and believers of other faiths, anyone who's ever going to have to live with or deal with one of these far right-wing Christian nationalists, because they're always right-wing fundamentalists. But something that was very respectful to belief and to Jesus and to God. But some of their unauthorized fan clubs are a bit problematic. And so it took many, many years of pitching this book and many, many publishers saying, no way. I mean, I put this for 13 years. You did? What? Jen Hatmaker I missed that. 13 years. John Fugelsang I submitted my first proposal back in 2010 when my dad was in hospice and I wrote my first my first book proposal for it and I had publishers telling me for ages wait it's for atheists and Believers who figure out your audience pal or I had one editor at a big publishing house tell me I don't know any of these fundamentalist Christians you write about this does not impact My life I live in Manhattan and I don't I never deal with these people why would I ever read something like this? And I just thought, wow, you don't really understand what they're trying to do with our government and every level of our civic society, do you? You are on the front edge. To hear that from you is lovely. Jen Hatmaker Thank you. That's so interesting. I mean, I can see why you got the green light now in this moment, in this regime, during this administration, second administration. And so whoever that told you that the first place, he knows now, he knows now, if he said, I have no concept of this subculture or this influence in my life, that is not a sentence he would Say today. John Fugelsang Honestly, everything happens for a reason. And I was, I, you know, I used to be angry about it, but then Simon and Schuster and Avid Reader Press showed up at just the right time and they totally responded to the concept that nobody Else had gotten. And they were so supportive. And to see this get, you know, five weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, you know, after all those years of being told there was no audience, it's just, I've always believed for A long time that the largest growing religious demographic in America, they say it's Mormons or they'll say it's Islam. Some say it's none of the aboves. I think the largest growing group we don't talk about and Democrats should market to is people who were raised religious, but now consider themselves spiritual. They're not turned off to spirituality or God or Jesus or belief. They love the great mystery, but they're really turned off to the hypocrisies and the cruelties and the meanness of so many church communities in this country. Jen Hatmaker Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, that is essentially the substance of our entire community. That is the through line. And we come from all different denominations and backgrounds. There's a lot of on-ramps into that story, but that's the lead foot that most of us are walking right now. Let's go back earlier. Let's start sooner than this because you have some real, you have a real connection into the Christian story at large. And I don't want to steal your thunder, because of course, you start the book out with this. But I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about your parents and your personal upbringing, because it informs everything about the cognitive dissonance that you have now like written Into. John Fugelsang Wow, well, thank you. It's really an honor to talk about this with you guys, your work means so much to me. I was raised abnormally Catholic. Yes. Very different from a lot of evangelical kids, but I was raised, my mom was an ex-nun. She grew up in the segregated South and entered the convent straight out of high school. The convent put her through nursing school and then sent her off to work with lepers in Malawi, Africa. But before they shipped her off to Africa, they briefly stationed her at Holy Family Hospital in Brooklyn, New York. My dad grew up in Brooklyn. He was a few months older than my mom. He became a Franciscan brother about a year after finishing high school. He wore the brown robes and the rope belt, and he taught history to Catholic boys and coached basketball and soccer. And he walked amongst the people like the lost Jedi of Flatbush. My father, the brother met my mother, the sister, when he was sick and entered Holy Family. And he fell madly in love with this quiet Southern nun that was his nurse that he knew he wasn't allowed to be in love with. He could never tell her. So he carried a torch. They stayed friends, pen pals for years while she was in Africa. Very long story short, eventually he talked her into quitting the convent and going on a date. And they got married two months later and they tried to raise us to be progressive, free-thinking Catholics, which is why I do stand up because I can never afford the therapy that's required. That's right. I was raised to believe that Christianity was about the stuff that Christ taught and commanded. Service to others, humility, love, acceptance, empathy, forgiving your enemies, turning the other cheek, replacing for an eye, and the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25, that individuals And nations are going to be judged by how they care for the poor, care for the sick, welcome the stranger, and care for the incarcerated. That's the stuff Jesus actually talked about. And I was raised mega Catholic. I mean, like, mass, holy days. Had to get organ lessons, like really Catholic, right? And my father's friends were all ex-Franciscans. And my mother became a head nurse at a convent for her former order. So I grew up around nuns all the time. And growing up in the late 20th century, if you watched the news on TV, you would see these Christian leaders, people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jimmy Swagger, that the TV would tell you were the Christian leaders. And for me as a kid, these guys never talked about racism, like the evils of racism. They talked about how evil protests against racism were. These guys never talked about exploitating labor like Dr. King or Dorothy Day with the Catholic worker movement. These guys talked about homeless people being lazy bums. They didn't talk about the poor. They talked about welfare queens. They didn't talk about welcome the stranger. They talked about illegals at the border. And they didn't talk about anything Jesus talked about. They talked about criminalizing abortion. That's right. And for 45 years, criminalizing abortion has been the issue that has made millions of Christians vote against everything Jesus ever actually talked about. That's right. To vote for something that Jesus never talked about. And after a couple of years, I got tired of seeing my parents' faith used in such a way. Again, I'm not saying the Bible's pro-abortion, but Christ is against the death penalty. The Bible's not against abortion. Abortions are legal and free in Israel right now because the Bible never actually bans ([Time 0:11:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/eb8aefc6-0539-4725-916b-22bddf929c40)) - **Raised Mega Catholic With Radical Roots** - Fugelsang recounts being raised by an ex-nun mother and a Franciscan brother father who left religious orders to marry. - He was raised to value Jesus' commands: service to others, humility, forgiveness, and welcoming the stranger. Transcript: John Fugelsang Well, thank you. It's really an honor to talk about this with you guys, your work means so much to me. I was raised abnormally Catholic. Yes. Very different from a lot of evangelical kids, but I was raised, my mom was an ex-nun. She grew up in the segregated South and entered the convent straight out of high school. The convent put her through nursing school and then sent her off to work with lepers in Malawi, Africa. But before they shipped her off to Africa, they briefly stationed her at Holy Family Hospital in Brooklyn, New York. My dad grew up in Brooklyn. He was a few months older than my mom. He became a Franciscan brother about a year after finishing high school. He wore the brown robes and the rope belt, and he taught history to Catholic boys and coached basketball and soccer. And he walked amongst the people like the lost Jedi of Flatbush. My father, the brother met my mother, the sister, when he was sick and entered Holy Family. And he fell madly in love with this quiet Southern nun that was his nurse that he knew he wasn't allowed to be in love with. He could never tell her. So he carried a torch. They stayed friends, pen pals for years while she was in Africa. Very long story short, eventually he talked her into quitting the convent and going on a date. And they got married two months later and they tried to raise us to be progressive, free-thinking Catholics, which is why I do stand up because I can never afford the therapy that's required. That's right. I was raised to believe that Christianity was about the stuff that Christ taught and commanded. Service to others, humility, love, acceptance, empathy, forgiving your enemies, turning the other cheek, replacing for an eye, and the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25, that individuals And nations are going to be judged by how they care for the poor, care for the sick, welcome the stranger, and care for the incarcerated. That's the stuff Jesus actually talked about. And I was raised mega Catholic. ([Time 0:14:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0071399a-fcf8-4d1d-987e-705e1be88f60)) - **Jesus' Teaching Threatens Empire, Sparks Resistance** - Jesus' teachings historically threaten authoritarian power, which is why some Christian authorities aligned with state power to suppress his movement. - Resistance within Christianity has always existed, from St. Francis to civil rights leaders. Transcript: John Fugelsang And that's why I try to focus on on the whole history of authoritarian christianity from the crusades through columbus through the confederacy through hitler i mean it's all through Segregation and and it's always been authoritarian christianity that rejects the teachings of christ for christ that was the crusades right we're going to throw out everything said About how to treat other people love our enemies and we're gonna slaughter pagans and slaughter Jews and slaughter Muslims for ground for Jesus that's right and slavery in the Indians We're gonna kill them or enslave them but we're gonna force Christianity on being saved didn't save anybody but that's how they rationalized doing the opposite of Jesus for Jesus. But all throughout history, at every phase of these atrocities, there's always been actual Christ followers who resisted. I mean, St. Francis quit the Crusades and preached nonviolence. Columbus's priest on his third voyage, Bartolomeo de las Casas, wrote to the queen to protest the treatment of the indigenous people in the name of God. Because people knew back then how unchristian the decimation of the Hispanola tribes were. I mean, slavery is propped up by Christianity. And you've got the Quakers and Frederick Douglass and Christ followers like Harriet Tubman pushing back. Christ followers like Dietrich Bonhoeffer martyring themselves against the Christian nationalism of the Nazis for their Jewish brothers and sisters, and Christianity propped Up segregation. Baptist minister out of Atlanta, Dr. King, shames white America with the gospel of Jesus to do it non-violently. The entire history of Christian resistance and Christian activism is always in opposition to shitty Christian authoritarianism. Just about how many people we know who've talked their parents and grandparents out of so much homophobia in the last 30 years. It's the battle that's going on right now with Trumpism. It's nothing new. It's always been Christianity for power, worshiping Jesus as a god or a prop, but rejecting his teachings versus the nice people who walk the walk and don't get any airtime because they're Too busy being nice. It's always the fundamentalists, the violent, crazy ones who get on the news, the haters who get all the ink and all the coverage, the nice Christians, Jews, and Muslims getting along, Building communities and families. No one puts them on TV. We only see the douchebags. Jen Hatmaker It's true. ([Time 0:23:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c2b0c432-2475-4685-b2be-ee24b8894fe8)) - **Why People Choose Paul Or Leviticus Over Jesus** - Fugelsang explains why many pick Old Testament or Paul's writings to justify cruelty while ignoring Jesus' teachings. - He shows Paul's influence and later Roman adoption turned some of Paul's cultural hangups into perceived scripture. Transcript: John Fugelsang Everyone of every faith picks and chooses the parts of our holy book that we choose to follow. The Bible is a mirror. Whatever you want to see in there, you'll see. If you want to see violent conquest and women be submissive and other tribes are inferior to us, if you want to see rape and condemnation and judgment, it's there. And if you want to see love and grace and forgiveness and growth and healing, that's there. So we all choose what we want to see. And if you follow the teachings of Jesus, you kind of are stuck with the grace and the love and the forgiveness part and not the violent conquest, my God has a bigger dick than your God. And so Jesus has this movement of nonviolent resistance, of transforming the ancient Hebrew scriptures, where he claims that he is allowed to reinterpret the scripture and says that He has come to fulfill scripture, not to abolish the covenant, but to build a new one. And now he's going to replace the law with the love, essentially. Jesus overturned so many Old Testament policies and laws from the death penalty. He overturns the divorce laws. He, at different times, challenges everything from Sabbath observance to food purity. He reduces the Ten Commandments to two. And, you know, they didn't kill him for being too conservative. They killed him because he was a radical reform Jew, and who may have been a Pharisee himself. But eventually, he caused too much problems, and a small portion of the conservative religious bosses, not all the Pharisees, just a small portion of the conservative bosses aligned With imperial power to kill him. Conservative religious authorities aligning with authoritarian government is what killed Jesus. We have to remember that because it's always when Christians align with Caesar instead of standing up to him that we see the opposite of our holy books. It's like when the right-wing Muslims embrace violence and terrorism. They've made that choice and they've rejected the commandments of peace and Islam, and it's no different here. So you want to get around Jesus. If you're a homophobe, you'll go back to the book of Leviticus. Shall not lie with a man is with a woman. Oh, there you go. God said it. The late Mr. Kirk called that God's absolute law. The only problem is Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians, right? It's the Jews escaping Pharaoh. It's God's guide to keeping your tribe's numbers up. And it says you have to stone adulterers to death. Leviticus 2010, Trump fans, so get your rocks ready if this is what you live by. But Christians aren't bound by Leviticus. There's a new covenant. So you've got Jesus. But when Jesus dies, his apostles are trying to preach the message, but they keep getting killed by guys like Saul of Tarsus, who's present for the martyrdom of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr. Eventually, Saul becomes Paul. Version of the Jesus movement all over the Roman Empire while Jesus's apostles are at home getting stoned to death or murdered by Paul's old buddies in the Pharisees. So Paul takes over the movement. I say in the book, it's like if Ronnie would join the Rolling Stones in 75, and then the other guys got killed in a plane crash, and Ronnie just kept the band name for his solo career, but Goes all over the Roman Empire, and he's like, hey, here's my thing. It's like Judaism, but there's eternal forgiveness and you can keep your foreskin and there's bacon now. And it's incredibly popular. The apostles all get killed, but Paul's version takes off. And by 300 years after his death, Rome takes over Paul's version of Christianity. So, I mean, talk about cultural appropriation, taking over the fan club of a guy that you executed. But Paul, when he's writing all these letters about ancient scripture to all the different churches he's setting up and giving them their guidebooks and their rules, and he contradicts Himself in many. In one, he says women can't speak in church. In another one, he says Phoebe was a deacon. That's true. So he contradicts himself plenty, but Paul puts all of his hangups about sex, about guys with guys, about women in authority. All of Paul's hangups go into his letters where he's writing to his protégés to set up the early church, right? 300 years later, Rome takes over. The council of Nicaea starts deciding, okay, what's going to be in this Bible and what do we leave out? We're going to make it official. One creed to rule them all. And they decide, hey, Paul's letters. Let's make that the last part of it. So now Paul's letters about Scripture are Scripture. Now Paul's letters about God are presumed to be Paul speaking for God. ([Time 0:32:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ab7fda06-f087-4697-8ab9-3987e3fadc02)) - **Five Traits That Define Fundamentalism** - Fugelsang lists five traits of religious fundamentalism: misogyny, sexual hangups, endorsed violence, focus on punishment, and a victimhood/persecution narrative. - These traits predict how and why fundamentalists align with authoritarian political power. Transcript: John Fugelsang I put in the book five traits that I think that all fundamentalists share, right? The more to the right your religion is, whatever religion, Hindu, Christian, women are always second class citizens. God made 51% of the population just a little bit inferior. That's right. The sex hangups, women enjoying sex, gay people enjoying sex. It's only for procreation. The more to the right any religion is, the more sex hangups. Three, violence is okay if my side does it. Sure. Yeah. I'm on the side of the one true God. If you're opposing me, you represent Satan. I'm not going to negotiate with Satan. Number four, it's always a focus on punishment instead of healing, always with fundamentalists. And number five, what you said, Jen, that penchant for victimhood, that persecution narrative, that we've been treated so badly whenever that we get to violate our religion's teachings And be cruel to our enemies now. That's how Donald Trump got the evangelicals. He never promised to do anything Jesus said. How could he? I promised to welcome the stranger as God commands throughout the Old Testament and Christ commands. I'm going to help the poor. No, no. He promised to put them on top. He promised them earthly power. You've been under siege for so long. You're so under siege. Christianity is under siege, but not from liberals or atheists or foreigners. ([Time 0:43:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/df0fc54a-88df-4d5e-85c0-684b8e9bc318)) - **Criticism Brings Pious Death Threats** - Fugelsang says he's receiving more pious death threats after criticizing Christian nationalism and expects vicious responses. - He interprets vicious attacks as evidence his critique targets inauthentic, non-Christian behavior. Transcript: John Fugelsang Know, I'm getting a much more pious level of death threat than I usually get, I think. That's the best way of describing it. Jen Hatmaker Are people coming for you? Yeah. John Fugelsang Yeah. You know, but that's nothing new. And I've been, look, you'll see how much these people hate when you call out Christianity that serves hate. Jen Hatmaker Right. John Fugelsang Like, you know, I say at the beginning of the book, if your church isn't telling you to love your enemies, but it's telling you who your enemies are, you're not in a real church. Not with Jesus. So I expect it. And I know that these guys don't know the scripture. And some of them are quite vicious, but I get it. Yeah. I mean, you can tell, right? The more they try to hurt you, the more you know that they are not Christian to begin with. So that just tells you, oh, I guess I was right to write this book. ([Time 0:51:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/39ef9ff7-11bc-4536-92da-e6607313e88d)) - **Respond To Hate By Modeling Love** - Treat hostile or programmed family members with respect, ask clarifying questions, and refuse to be baited into martyrdom narratives. - Model Jesus' teachings publicly at gatherings to influence others even if you can't change the aggressor. Transcript: Amy Hardin How? John Fugelsang Well, it's kind of like the way they'll say bless your heart as fuck you. Jen Hatmaker Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. John Fugelsang So I will, you know, like, you know if I'm ever saying, hey, my brother in Christ, then you know I'm being really sarcastic with a racist. Totally. Amy Hardin Right. John Fugelsang You know, where was Barack obama born my brother in christ you know like then you know where i'm going at but i but i do always try to say my friends because they've been these people right They're they're not zealots they're not nationalists they're our friends they're our neighbors they're our cousins they're that guy from high school we're still friends with on Facebook and he can't spell your and some of them are racist but a lot of them don't have hate in their heart and they've been programmed with this crap and young men are victims of an algorithm Where evil douchebags get rich the more we hate each other and this toxic masculinity that is being forced on kids the same time they're being taught self-pity with a male loneliness Crisis and no one's connecting the dots it's mean out there and i don't want to be part of the meanness so i i make it that my only targets are going to be people in power and mean people that's Good and even if they're mean and not in power i'll try to be as patient as i can because if you're debating in public they need you to be the bad guy. Don't give it to them. If you're debating Uncle Racist on Thanksgiving, you're debating Uncle Racist, they spent their entire life thinking that you think they're flyover country and you dismiss them And hate them. Don't give them any reason to play martyr and make them think they're right. Treat them with love. Treat them with respect. Prove that it's a lie, that other people don't listen to them. Acknowledge their thoughts, even the crazy ones, and then make them acknowledge yours. Because even if they don't agree with you in the Thanksgiving debate, if you make them acknowledge, can you at least say that Jesus never calls to make abortion illegal? Can you at least say that God never has anyone of the prophets condemn abortion? Can you at least acknowledge that the majority of women who get abortions are already moms, already religiously affiliated, and 57% of them are at a threat of poverty? Can you acknowledge these facts? I'm not asking you to, can you acknowledge the Bible never says government should force citizens to be pregnant against their will? Can you just acknowledge, even if they don't agree with you, they'll remember your point. And nine times out of 10, I believe they will respect that you made the effort to engage them on terms of scripture and not just call them superstitious names or myths. You know, I just think you get farther showing your uncle how Jesus wasn't an immigrant-hating homophobe than if you just call your uncle an immigrant-hating homophobe. That's great. Jen Hatmaker God, that's really good advice. John Fugelsang And even if you don't, and you probably won't sway them, but you will model the gospel for everybody else at that Thanksgiving dinner table, at that reunion. You'll be the non-dude track. And you won't fight them back. You'll ask questions. And the more hateful they get, the more right it'll prove you to be. Just don't let it get you flustered. ([Time 0:55:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ca5f374b-19dc-4b07-8f07-a671878cda63)) - **Youth Move Away From Meanness, Not Faith** - Young people are leaving organized religion over meanness, not spirituality, creating a chance to reclaim Christianity through Gospel values. - Policies rooted in Jesus' teachings (care for poor, healthcare, environment) align with younger priorities and democratic health. Transcript: John Fugelsang I think pushing the Gospels is the only way forward i mean what like like we're about two-thirds of us identify as christian now yeah 25 years ago in the late 90s it was 90 wow gosh 2022 was The first year in history that less than half of us became regular attendees of any kind of church or mosque or synagogue. So it's below 50% in weekly attendance for three years on now. So, you know, young people are moving away from religion, moving away from Christianity. They are not moving away because of the teachings of Jesus or because of God or Noah's Ark or Santa Claus. They're moving away because they don't like the meanness. You talk to a young person now, they can't believe how homophobic everybody was 30 years ago and how normal that was. Well, don't you think in 20 years you talk to a kid, they're not going to believe how transphobic you people were back in the 20s. I wasn't transphobic in the 20s. Are you kidding me? I've seen all of you all. You trans people are terrible. Like we, in so many ways. I do believe economically it's getting worse. I'm not going to lie. I mean, economically it's been getting worse for working people in this country for 45 years. But we are getting kinder. If you had told me in the 90s that we'd have a black president and gay marriage and we'd stop putting people in jail for weed, I would not have believed it. I agree. So much proof we are getting kinder all the time i'm not an optimist i'm a recovering cynic and and the mean people look they're going to die off and the racists are going to die off i'd like To think they can see the light but you know if you look at things that like like appeal to young people like protecting the environment yeah being a responsible steward of the environment Well that allies very well with christianity um fighting for the downtrodden fighting for the fighting against poverty that allies well with the teachings of jesus and it's popular With young people uh not hating foreigners not being racist um not being a homophobe very popular with young people aligns nicely with Jesus how about health care how about access better Access to health care for everybody popular with young people Jesus literally orders it I mean like like these issues and also not judging people for their private life that's right Leaving people hell alone for their sex lives very popular with young people very popular with Jesus the only sexual sin Jesus ever condemns are adultery and guys dumping their wives. That's it. So it's like if a church wants to survive with young people who will be growing with it, I think dumping the racism, dumping the control mechanisms, dumping the fire and brimstone in The hell, look, that's always going to sell to some people. And for many churches, that's what fills the pews. And you see these right wing churches, they get more and more racist because the one down the street's more racist than us. So I've got to say something even meaner about George Floyd and say Charlie Kirk healed lepers to be more right wing than that last one. Come on, man. It's like it's spiritual death, these these these these misogynists. So I do think the way forward for Christianity and for capitalism and for democracy is the teachings of Jesus. We have to go to the margins. The first two years of Joe Biden's administration proved this. We had the lowest child poverty rate in the history of this country for a whole year because we wanted it. We chose it. So we achieved it. And if you spend money on poor, if you help the poor, if you help the sick, well, then guess what? People having living wages can buy more stuff, and that helps rich people. Of course. Like everything Jesus talked about, about going to the margins for the less fortunate. So people can buy shit, not have to be buried under student loan debt or buried under medical debt, but can buy houses, can build families. Like, that's how you get a middle class back. This oligarch thing we've been doing for years where these racists just own Republicans and Republicans say racist things. So Christians vote against Jesus and all the money gets shoveled upward. It's been 45 years of this. The middle class is the top or the bottom. And something's got to change. I wrote this book just to say the ideas of Jesus of love as policy work. ([Time 0:58:49](https://share.snipd.com/snip/45b302c4-3fcb-4ae2-b4dd-06368a93c328)) - **Love-As-Policy Boosts Economy And Society** - Fugelsang connects pro-poor policies directly to Gospel outcomes: reducing poverty spurs economic recovery and a stronger middle class. - He frames compassion as both moral teaching and pragmatic economic policy. Transcript: John Fugelsang We have to go to the margins. The first two years of Joe Biden's administration proved this. We had the lowest child poverty rate in the history of this country for a whole year because we wanted it. We chose it. So we achieved it. And if you spend money on poor, if you help the poor, if you help the sick, well, then guess what? People having living wages can buy more stuff, and that helps rich people. Of course. Like everything Jesus talked about, about going to the margins for the less fortunate. So people can buy shit, not have to be buried under student loan debt or buried under medical debt, but can buy houses, can build families. Like, that's how you get a middle class back. This oligarch thing we've been doing for years where these racists just own Republicans and Republicans say racist things. So Christians vote against Jesus and all the money gets shoveled upward. It's been 45 years of this. The middle class is the top or the bottom. And something's got to change. ([Time 1:01:54](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b3cdf3c0-7b81-40d4-9ee6-e342c99da2bc))