Optimizing Woo Checkout for Black Friday ft. Ian Misner 🔗 **Source:** [Optimizing Woo Checkout for Black Friday ft. Ian Misner](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [woocommerce, ecommerce, checkout-optimization, wordpress, extensions] > author: Brian Coords > source: Web Masters FM > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY > date created: 2025-01-30 17:27 > > # 🏷️ Title: WooCommerce Checkout Optimization with CheckoutWC - Ian Meisner Interview > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Test checkout conversion rates before Black Friday season — implement proper telemetry #ecommerce - [H2] Consider multi-step checkout over single-page for better UX — research shows 10-30% conversion boost #optimization - [H3] Set up cart abandonment emails if not already implemented — works on literally every store #marketing ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Kestrel WP](https://kestrelwp.com) - [WP Product Talk](https://youtube.com) ## 📝 Summary - Ian Meisner discusses CheckoutWC, a React-based WooCommerce checkout replacement that improves conversion rates by 10-30% - CheckoutWC originated as an agency tool to streamline common checkout optimizations across client stores - The platform serves 8,000-9,000 stores and focuses on trust-building UX improvements rather than flashy features - Key differentiation lies in extensibility that survives third-party plugin combinations while providing UI-based customization - Black Friday preparation should focus on confidence, conversion, and continuity rather than last-minute changes ## 📖 Main Content Ian Meisner, founder of Kestrel, operates a suite of 50 WooCommerce extensions with CheckoutWC as a flagship product. Originally developed by Cliff Griffin for agency use, CheckoutWC addresses the gap between WooCommerce's legacy checkout (dated but functional) and the newer block-based checkout (modern but restrictive). The core value proposition centers on trust-building through subtle UX improvements rather than dramatic feature additions. Most optimizations—address validation, trust badges, order bumps—could theoretically be implemented with custom code or existing plugins, but CheckoutWC consolidates these into a single, maintained solution. Extensibility remains a contentious issue in the WordPress ecosystem. While block-based solutions prioritize user customization over developer extensibility, CheckoutWC maintains both through hooks, filters, and visual customization options. The platform supports complex third-party plugin combinations, often requiring custom compatibility work for edge cases. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Background - Key idea: Ian runs Kestrel with 50 WooCommerce extensions, positioning as "SkyVerge 2.0" - Evidence: "We sell about 50 WooCommerce extensions, doing memberships, checkout improvements, upsells" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=150) — [H2] CheckoutWC Origins - Key idea: Started as agency efficiency tool by Cliff Griffin, acquired by Kestrel 1.5 years ago - Evidence: "He was an agency, built tons of stores, found this list of optimizations you do every single time" #### ⏱️ [04:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=285) — [H2] Two Checkout Problem - Key idea: WooCommerce has legacy checkout (dated) and block checkout (restrictive) - Evidence: "Woo's in this place where there are two checkouts. Legacy one looked great in 2012, now dated" #### ⏱️ [06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=390) — [H2] Core Value Proposition - Key idea: 90% of features are doable elsewhere, value is time-to-deploy for agencies - Evidence: "90% probably greater than what we do you could just go do with extensions or custom code" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=495) — [H2] Shopify-Style Checkout Demand - Key idea: Top search term is "Shopify style checkout for WooCommerce" - Evidence: "One of our top search terms is Shopify style checkout for WooCommerce" #### ⏱️ [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=600) — [H2] Conversion Rate Impact - Key idea: Boosts conversions 10-30% through subtle UX improvements and trust signals - Evidence: "It's fast, performant, boosts conversions between 10 and 30% depending on which dataset you trust" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=765) — [H2] Feature Categories - Key idea: Trust badges, address validation, order bumps, and complex rule systems - Evidence: "Trust badges, address validation, order bumps with very complex rule system" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=930) — [H2] Multi-Step vs One-Page Checkout - Key idea: Multi-step generally outperforms one-page checkout for multiple SKUs - Evidence: "If you sell multiple SKUs, one-page seems to perform worse, we bury it as a setting" #### ⏱️ [18:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=1080) — [H2] Conversion Optimization Basics - Key idea: Site speed and cart abandonment emails are foundational improvements - Evidence: "Your site is very slow, shaving couple hundred milliseconds makes massive difference" #### ⏱️ [20:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=1215) — [H2] Trust and Boring Excellence - Key idea: Great checkout should be boring, predictable, and battle-tested - Evidence: "Really great checkout is kind of boring and predictable, battle tested and works" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=1350) — [H1] Extensibility Philosophy - Key idea: WordPress/WooCommerce's greatest strength is ability to build any experience - Evidence: "WooCommerce's greatest strength is you can build any experience you want" #### ⏱️ [25:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=1545) — [H2] Third-Party Compatibility - Key idea: Must survive universe of third-party code and weird edge cases - Evidence: "Every feature has to survive whole universe of third party code and hooks" #### ⏱️ [28:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=1680) — [H2] Payment Gateway Integration - Key idea: Relies on standard patterns, adds specific compatibility for major gateways - Evidence: "If payment gateway works with typical Woo checkout it will work with ours" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=1935) — [H2] Customization vs Extensibility Trade-off - Key idea: Block editor improved customization but potentially reduced extensibility - Evidence: "Customization has gotten way better, I find myself doing much less coding" #### ⏱️ [36:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY?t=2190) — [H1] Black Friday Preparation Framework - Key idea: Focus on confidence, conversion, and continuity - avoid major changes - Evidence: "Confidence, conversion, continuity. You missed your window for conversion testing" ## 📚 References - [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Kestrel WP](https://kestrelwp.com) - [WooCommerce Marketplace](https://woocommerce.com/products/) - [WP Product Talk Podcast](https://youtube.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - CheckoutWC emerged from agency needs to standardize checkout optimizations across client stores, focusing on time-to-deploy rather than unique functionality - The platform bridges the gap between WooCommerce's outdated legacy checkout and the restrictive new block-based system through React-based flexibility - Success comes from boring reliability and trust-building rather than flashy features, with conversion improvements stemming from subtle UX enhancements ## 📰 Newsletter **Checkout Optimization Insights for WordPress Stores** Black Friday approaches, and checkout performance can make or break your seasonal revenue. Ian Meisner from CheckoutWC shared valuable insights on optimizing WooCommerce checkouts for conversion and reliability. **Key Takeaway:** Focus on trust-building through subtle UX improvements rather than flashy features. Simple changes like address autocomplete, trust badges, and multi-step flows can boost conversions 10-30%. **Practical Benefits:** - Reduce cart abandonment with email capture optimization - Improve site speed for measurable conversion gains - Implement continuity strategies for post-holiday retention **Black Friday Preparation Framework:** - **Confidence:** Test system reliability, avoid major changes - **Conversion:** Optimize existing flows, don't experiment - **Continuity:** Plan retention strategies beyond the sale event Resources: [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com), [WooCommerce Performance Guide](https://woocommerce.com/performance/), [Conversion Optimization](https://learn.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Develop unified notification system to replace admin notice abuse - Community: Create best practices guide for checkout optimization - Documentation: Expand extensibility vs customization trade-off guidance - Performance: Publish checkout speed optimization tutorials #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Showcase CheckoutWC integration patterns as extensibility examples - Education: Create workshop on React-based checkout development - Developer experience: Document WooCommerce checkout hooks and filters comprehensively - Community management: Facilitate discussion on extensibility vs customization balance #### Community - Maintainers: Establish checkout optimization working group - Contributors: Develop checkout performance benchmarking tools - Sponsors: Fund research on conversion optimization best practices ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Multi-step checkouts consistently outperform single-page checkouts for stores selling multiple SKUs - Trust signal placement near order buttons correlates with measurable conversion improvements - React-based checkouts provide better extensibility than block-based alternatives while maintaining performance - Agency adoption drives merchant platform choices more than direct merchant evaluation ### 📊 Methodology - A/B testing framework comparing single-page vs multi-step checkout flows across diverse store types - Conversion tracking analysis correlating trust badge placement with completion rates - Performance benchmarking of different checkout implementations under load ### ❓ Questions - How do we balance WordPress's extensibility heritage with modern security and stability requirements? - What specific UX patterns consistently improve checkout conversion across different industries? - Can we quantify the trade-offs between customization ease and developer extensibility? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive analysis of checkout abandonment patterns across WooCommerce stores - Extensibility framework design that maintains both user customization and developer flexibility - Cross-platform checkout conversion optimization research ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Checkout optimization requires measurement infrastructure before implementation - Policy: WordPress extensibility philosophy needs clearer guidance for block-based development - Security: Third-party compatibility creates ongoing maintenance burdens - Education: Developers need training on modern WordPress extensibility patterns - Funding: Checkout optimization tools represent significant market opportunity ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Interface screenshots, conversion rate charts - Improve: Checkout flow diagrams, before/after comparisons, visual hook guides #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast interview available - Improve: Audio chapters with key takeaways, narrated tutorials #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Technical terms defined, e-commerce analogies - Improve: Glossary of checkout optimization terms, Shopify comparison explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable Black Friday preparation steps - Improve: Interactive checkout audit checklist, hands-on configuration guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Conversion rate data, systematic optimization framework - Improve: Decision trees for checkout choices, ROI calculators #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Agency use cases, community feedback examples - Improve: User group discussions, peer review processes #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-assessment questions, individual optimization strategies - Improve: Personal optimization worksheets, reflection prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: E-commerce ecosystem analogies - Improve: Platform lifecycle thinking, natural user flow patterns ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive links - Improve: Alt text for interface screenshots, ARIA labels for complex data #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Logical tab order in text content - Improve: Skip links for long transcripts, keyboard shortcuts for sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast text, readable font sizes - Improve: Color-coding alternatives for data visualization #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive text layout - Improve: Zoom compatibility testing, mobile optimization #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Chapter markers, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Clear action items with context - Improve: Interactive checklists with proper labeling ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global e-commerce perspective, international payment gateways - Improve: Multi-currency examples, regional checkout preferences #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral technical terms, jargon definitions - Improve: Plain language summaries, cultural context for business practices #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, consistent formatting - Improve: Executive summary options, distraction-free reading mode #### Representation - Present: Diverse business examples, various store types - Improve: Include accessibility-first businesses, underrepresented merchant voices #### Psychological safety - Present: Non-judgmental optimization advice - Improve: Emphasize testing over assumptions, validate current approaches ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Strong logical progression from problem identification to solution benefits - Inductive strength: Good use of aggregate data from 8,000+ stores to support claims - Causal reasoning: Clear cause-effect relationships between UX changes and conversion improvements - Analogical strength: Effective Shopify comparison provides relatable reference point #### Fallacies - Appeal to popularity: "Top search term is Shopify style checkout" - popularity doesn't equal effectiveness - Hasty generalization: "Works on literally every store" for cart abandonment emails - overly broad claim - False dichotomy: Extensibility vs customization presented as either/or choice when both possible #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Professional and experienced, balancing technical expertise with practical accessibility ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No defensive denials present - acknowledges limitations openly - Attack: No attacks on competitors - respectful discussion of alternatives - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this technical discussion - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Balanced, evidence-based presentation without manipulation ## 🎯 Conclusion CheckoutWC represents a practical approach to WooCommerce checkout optimization, prioritizing boring reliability over flashy features. The key insight is that conversion improvements come from trust-building through subtle UX enhancements rather than dramatic functionality changes. For Black Friday preparation, focus on confidence (system reliability), conversion (optimizing existing flows), and continuity (post-sale retention) rather than last-minute experimentation. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. ### [H1] Checkout optimization requires measurement before implementation > [!quote] [WooCommerce Checkout Optimization](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY) by [[Ian Meisner]] via [[Web Masters FM]]. Published 2025-01-30. Accessed 2025-01-30. > "Very first thing is making sure you actually have conversion measurement in place some sort of telemetry." Essential foundation before any optimization efforts begin. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY#checkout-measurement) #conversion #analytics ID:rw_checkout001 ### [H2] Multi-step checkouts outperform single-page for multiple SKUs > [!quote] [WooCommerce Checkout Optimization](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY) > "If you sell like multiple SKUs, one-page checkout seems to perform worse." Counter-intuitive finding challenges assumption that fewer steps equals better conversion. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY#multistep-checkout) #ux #optimization ID:rw_checkout002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Cart abandonment emails work universally across stores - Applies to all e-commerce stores regardless of industry or size - Referenced at 18:00 timestamp discussion - Links: [[E-commerce-Marketing]] [[Conversion-Optimization]] #### [Z2] Site speed improvements create measurable checkout conversion gains - Shaving hundreds of milliseconds impacts conversion rates significantly - Performance optimization as conversion strategy - Links: [[Web-Performance]] [[User-Experience]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research WP Notify project mentioned by Jonathan Bosinger — admin notice solution #fleeting #wordpress - [F2] Investigate Bane Institute research on checkout trust factors — conversion psychology #fleeting #research - [F3] Document CheckoutWC visual hooks guide as extensibility example — developer resources #fleeting #documentation <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC8Bh6UTKgY)* **[00:00]** Welcome to Web Masters FM. Today I have my friend Ian on the show. Ian, can you give everybody a little bio of you and Kestrel and kind of what you do? >> Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Uh, my name is Ian Meisner. I run Kestrel. Uh, we do Woo extensions. So, we sell about 50 Woo Commerce extensions, doing a ton of different stuff like memberships, uh, checkout improvements, you know, upsells, add-ons, all the all the things. uh primarily sold through the Woo marketplace, but also you know, check out wc.com and some of our sites. Uh and **[00:30]** you know, we've been in the space a while. I started out with a team at Sky Verge about almost 10 years ago now. Uh so, you know, we've been working in the WO space extending it for a long time and uh yeah, this is sort of our Sky Verge 2.0 is kind of what we're going for here. So at the in the context of this conversation, one person works at Woo Commerce and the other person knows way more about Woo Commerce is kind of how we should frame it cuz I mean you you know more than me for sure. >> It depends on what you mean when you say Woo Commerce. You know, I know enough **[01:02]** about the company, a lot about the product or the platform, but I think that you know, different experience, different knowledge, right? It's all good. >> Yeah. One of the reasons to have a podcast is usually to invite people that you wouldn't normally get to talk to and get to like introduce yourselves to people. So like that's why I started this. I was like I'm gonna have a reason to ask, you know, specific people to talk to me for 30 minutes. But in this case, it's kind of the opposite where I feel like it's pretty easy to get you to talk to me. And I kind of already know the things we could be talking about in **[01:32]** terms of like you said, the platform, the company, all that sort of stuff. But I want to go different than our normal conversations partially because we're being recorded and just talk about I want to talk about checkout generally because it's interesting to me that you have a checkout product. WooCommerce has a default checkout. Checkout feels like a very important part in like the e-commerce world and stuff. And so I guess kind of to kick it off, what is your what is CheckoutWC and why did you hate WooCommerce Checkout so much you **[02:03]** had to compete with it with a product? >> Yeah know it's a great question and I do have to give a bit of background to explain it I think a little bit. So the original founder of Checker WC is Cliff Griffin. We acquired it from him about a year a year and a half ago now. His reason for starting it a little bit simpler than why we wanted it. So I kind of have two answers for you. The real reason he started it is back in the day he was an agency. He built a ton of stores on Woo Commerce and started finding that there's this list of optimizations you do every single time as a deever and agency. And you know **[02:34]** it's nothing that you know back when he started the Woo checkout was the the legacy checkout we call it now was still like a perfectly acceptable. It was good. There was nothing wrong with it and everyone liked it still. But there was a lot you could do to boost you know conversion rates and just really you know make it feel like a high trust environment basically right and so the original thing he built was a tool for himself and his team to just you know build stores faster basically >> okay >> now the interest that we had in it really came to you know you zoom forward **[03:06]** and you know the big you know block checkout change and you know everything in WordPress is blocks and it's you know JavaScript and it's different all that stuff ultimately really woos in this place where there is two checkouts. You got the legacy one which again looked great in 2012 2015 and now it's a little bit dated and then you have the new one that is great and wonderful and does convert a lot better than the old one but there is some restrictions and difficulties there. So check out WC as Cliff built it is a reactbased checkout **[03:36]** but also it follows all the you know standard extensibility practices that you would find. Actually we have a we have a visual hooks guide on our website if you go to it. You could probably change more on ours than on the Woo checkout actually the old one even. >> Okay. So so then like what I mean there's a there's like a bunch of different ways we could go. There's like the extensibility thing which I think we should talk about, but I think like first just setting the stage when you say like we want to like change a checkout for whatever higher conversion **[04:07]** rate or maybe just some customization and stuff like that. What are like the top I don't know handful of features that most people are coming to checkout WC to do that they can't do in like a standard checkout and also compare that to like the Shopify checkout which you kind of can't touch at all but seems to do very well for a lot of people. So like what are you offering that's not there? >> So uh I will say 90 probably greater than 90% of what we do you could just go do you know either with extensions or custom code like it's the magic of Checkout WC is often that you know you **[04:38]** pay one price the job's done for you and most of our users actually most of the sites on our platform are brought by agencies and they're really doing it to shave you know time to deploy more than anything. Now, as far as what it actually does though, uh well, first of all, one of our top search terms is Shopify style checkout for Woo Commerce. So, literally it does look more like Shopify. But there is a lot of independent research that goes into it as well or I mean in independent as in we go to first party sources that are **[05:08]** doing real deep level research to make sure that the little optimizations we make matter. And then there's really like kind of two parts to what the product really is. The main thing which is actually I don't know if I should you know push this too much. It's in our free plugin on WordPress >> is the replacement to checkout that is it's fast, it's performant, it it boosts conversions between 10 and 30% depending on which data set you trust. >> And you know it doesn't do a lot more than just look better and feel more safe **[05:40]** or you know whatever that like subtle UX changes just make people feel more comfortable with checkout and you convert slightly better and that's sort of the core value proposition. But then you have all the other stuff, the things that people actually search for and you know that's how they find us and that's why they upgrade. Some of it's very simple of like you know address validation and I know you guys added address autocomplete in a recent version. >> We've had that for a while but then you have like trust badges just being able to put Visa Mastercard or some awards you won and reviews you know **[06:10]** testimonials from users kind of near the place order button. And then little UX tweaks as well though of like being able to in this in the checkout page, you know, tweak quantities or whatever, like very just minor things that we actually don't encourage you to activate them all, but a testing framework to to make sure that for your store is the best choice. Then there's a few that are a little bit more blunt is like let's just get more stuff sold or more you know order bumps is a big feature that people come to us for and you know one-click **[06:40]** offers and we have a very complex rule system that you can build like you know you show one offer to someone because they've bought from you five times and it's a special offer that you wouldn't show everyone else. It's really easy to set up those very complex rule sets, >> okay, >> to boost the order value. Uh but then there's also just like again the timed to setup portion of things where we include like order delivery features where you know a very common thing for us is actually with like restaurants and stuff you know you have sort of a capacity of what you can have available **[07:12]** for certain windows of time and we include all the logic to put all that on check out really easily as well. And so basically you can replace like 10 15 plugins with ours and the idea is we should have everything you really need and if we don't please tell us you know we will add it in most cases. Did I get to the question? I actually kind of >> yeah I think well I mean you kind of covered a lot of the feature like that's helpful like the trust badges and it's like you said like I can imagine I could probably do most of this in the block checkout. I kind of forget how much you **[07:42]** can mess with the inner blocks. And I think the other thing too is like a lot of the WooCommerce stuff like it's it's very it's a lot easier for developers to do. There's not a lot of like UI for a lot of these things like additional fields and adding some like you know trust badges or pricing things or whatever. Like a lot of that stuff is maybe possible but it's stuff but I'm guessing even though you're selling to agencies like there's UI for all of this stuff. It's not typical that they're going to need to dig into code. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we kind of see our **[08:12]** customers as like a two-tiered setup, right? So, the agencies who we try our best to cater to as often as possible, they're actually buying our product because it is time to set up, you know, so a good dev can do everything we do and in many cases they are, you know, agency already has like a GitHub repo for a custom thank you page template and they pull it in and you know, like they can do all that. But >> yeah, >> the the feedback we get from that audience is that being able to offload the responsibility of making sure this all stays up to date is meaningful. We're no we're no more expensive than **[08:44]** any other extension. It's a bunch of stuff and it's easier. But the thing is we also we do have quite a bit of data across thousands of WooCommerce stores. And then from like a product perspective, we spend our time thinking about GMV within our like mini Woo ecosystem or whatever. And so every time we make a change or we improve something, our goal is just to make sure that stores using our product sell more in the future, which again that confidence that that should bring to an individual merchant kind of ladders up **[09:15]** to the agency audience and they get to show you know this is like your store gets better over time by using this. >> Yeah. You know, in again those those changes aren't always felt by individual stores, but as like in aggregate, there's what like 8,000 9,000 stores using Check out WC and we're able to sort of tweak over time to ensure we're doing that for as many as possible. >> Okay. And when you say people search for Shopify style checkout, I'm like just trying to imagine what it is they're **[09:45]** searching for. Like one thing off the top of my head is like the Woo Checkout is very spacious, if you know what I like like it's very uh open users, you're scrolling for like a day or two to like get all of your address fields filled out. Shopify, it feels like it's like kind of similar to like the Stripe Express checkout where it's like I can kind of see all of it in my viewport at one point in time without scrolling or something like that like so there's that visual element, but is there other stuff that people see in the Shopify checkout that they're not getting? Yeah. So, different people seem to mean different **[10:16]** things when they say Shopify style checkout. And that's sort of one of the struggles that I'm sure the Woo team has too actually when people are looking for these sorts of things. The things that it seems to mean most often I don't even think are actually the primary Shopify checkout today. >> But one is the multi-step checkout. You know, show as few fields as possible on each page. And it's multiple steps. And theoretically, you would think that that's more opportunity for people to drop off. But with the right UX, you know, it feels very quick and fluid and your browser's autofilling enough of it **[10:46]** that they're just clicking, clicking, clicking until their orders gone through. So that's probably that's close. That's genuinely what I recommend for the vast majority of stores. But then the other thing that people tend to mean is just they actually are just asking for one page checkout, which is something that Shopify offers as well. In almost every case, if you sell like multiple SKs, that seems to perform worse. And so we've actually tried we we do make it available. It's really easy to use, but we actually kind of bury it a little bit as a setting where if you're looking for it, it's there, but **[11:18]** hey, you should try this thing that's actually going to work better instead. It's one of the things they're looking for though. >> When you say like onepage checkout, like explain you mean like skipping the cart page and like getting straight into checkout or >> No. So our product actually assumes there is no cart page and again you can reenable it but we disable scikart by default in our product right so it's always there is no cart page unless you choose to put it back that being said onepage checkout is like you know you have a skew you add it to the cart and **[11:48]** then it's one very long form and it's you don't leave the page basically and it's very >> for single skew stores it might make sense but I would still even in those cases encourage someone to test rather than assuming it's the right answer We have a lot of blog posts that do make that recommendation. Again, a lot of search traffic exists for it, so we offer it. You can do it. I'm just not sure you should. >> So, if you're like building stores and sort of like that, what what is kind of like the top things people should be looking at for their checkout? Like, if **[12:19]** people are concerned maybe my checkout isn't converting, but they're not exactly sure like how to test it or how to like have that data and stuff, what are the types of things they should be like looking at, trying to understand? >> Yeah. Uh well I mean the very first thing is you know making sure you actually have conversion measurement in place some sort of telemetry. You'd be surprised by the number of stores we see where they don't even actually keep track of that. So being able to test and we are actually working on a bit of an AB testing feature that'll improve the way you won't need to go set up other stuff in a perfect world will help you **[12:49]** with that actually. But um the we do this whole concept of like a conversion rescue where we send out an email campaign periodically and you know people can opt in and we'll just come in and you know make a bunch of recommendations on how to do better on your store. And I mean there's a few trends that happen more often than you would expect frankly like number one >> your your site is very slow and check out you know shaving a couple hundred milliseconds does make a massive difference. >> Yeah >> I don't want to tell everyone to go use a better host in almost every case. Now that's not what our product does, but **[13:19]** that is the thing that's going to help most. >> Yeah. >> Now, as far as the things our product actually does to improve the experience, the little tweaks, which you know, address autocomplete makes a real big difference. You know, it's the time through. Uh we bump the the email field to the very top of checkout. So, we have a email card abandonment feature, which I mean, if you're not doing card abandonment emails yet, that is, you know, stop right now. That's one of the few things that works on literally every single store I've ever seen. you know, there's no testing needed that will work for you if you're not doing it yet. But **[13:51]** then it's like I was saying before, it's thinking about the checkout as like, you know, are you maintaining trust through this space? And so little design tweaks, UX improvements do more than what you would expect, frankly. You know, little there's things like the transition between our multi-step checkout feels basic. It's all react based so it feels basically instantaneous >> and that's that little tweak of >> it feels more serious I guess and whatever that feeling of trust is there's a lot of research from like the **[14:21]** Bane Institute and all that that really focuses on it and I know this doesn't sound as exciting as like you know here's the four cool tricks that are going to do it but honestly a really great checkout is kind of boring and predictable you know it's battle tested and it works and >> the thing that you really need to do is zoom out like one layer and make sure you're frequently doing something to test that it is the best solution for for your store. We give you the tools to make it easy to test a lot of obvious things that everyone should try testing before you settle on, you know, the **[14:52]** three cool tricks that are best for you. >> Okay? >> We can we can make recommendations based on your industry, the type of store you are and all that. you know, feel free to reach out to our support and we'll say stores like you should do this, but ultimately unless you do the work of testing at a meaningful scale, you can't be 100% certain. >> And one of the things you mentioned was extensibility. You guys have some amount of like developer extensibility there. Extensibility is definitely a concept that I hear about a lot as a developer advocate at Woo Commerce and just about **[15:24]** somebody who worked in an agency and tried to use the block editor early on and stuff. I think extensibility is still, how do I say this, an open field in WordPress that needs to be cultivated a little bit. How do you guys think about extensibility and what do you think you're doing that like core WordPress, core Woo Commerce are not doing for extensibility? Yeah, it's a bit of a loaded question, I think, because I could I could give you the super friendly, happy answer, the one I really mean, right? So, >> I'll take both. **[15:55]** >> Well, I mean, right off the hop, I do think that Woo Commerce's greatest strength against the other solutions that you can use for an e-commerce store is that you can build any experience you want, right? And that's sort of the that assumption, the philosophical truth behind that being the thing that is at the core of it is I think the most important thing. And then you know you'll see like you know Matt Mullen at WordPress can Word Camp Canada last week doing the defending of Hello Dolly in know WordPress core is you know the tutorial the here's how you do hooks and **[16:27]** filters in my opinion is the magic of WordPress at the very root right that's the thing that >> ultimately you know it makes more developers to do more tweaks and what the spectrum of what is a developer anyways to to zoom into the actual answer though from there. Uh we do believe strongly with our checkout that every feature, everything we do has to survive the whole universe of third party code and the hooks and all the weird things that people can do. And I forget the name of it, but there's like a rule of like if any API will be used in any way, it could potentially be **[16:58]** used. So like things as simple as like your error messages, >> you know, people are using those for logic in some way and like they shouldn't. It's absolutely absurd and ridiculous, but they do. So you do need to be thoughtful of that and because of you know we're replacing checkout we sort of have this inherent commitment or this implicit commitment with our users and especially the devs and agencies that you know we will survive that universe of third party code. Uh we won't always not break it but we will **[17:29]** definitely fix it and to the point of supporting like weird third party solutions and edge cases is a big part of what our support for this product looks like. And most of those are actually coming from combinations that like we wouldn't test or couldn't test if we wanted to. You know, you're using like a a shipping solution in Germany with Woo Germanized, but also you've customized eight of the fields manually. You know, like sometimes we're going to break that, but we will definitely, you know, fix it. We have quick support. We **[18:01]** will always maintain our piece of that or at least tell you what you need to do to get it fixed. So yeah, we have sort of the luxury of not being Woo Commerce in that in that way, right? Like we don't have to think about 7 million stores or whatever it is. We have to think of a couple thousand. >> But how do you how do you work with all the different payment gateways? Like who builds that integration so that you can work? Do you guys do that or >> we rely so two things we rely primarily **[18:32]** on just following the patterns that developers should be using, right? So that's >> the default assumption which >> does mean in almost all cases if a payment gateway works with a typical Woo checkout it will also work with ours. We do have you know specific compatibility code with in many cases Woo payments but also payment plugins by with with Stripe and all them. You know there's specific work we do to make sure it works better but we're not choosing those right we're just >> what are the most users using? What can we improve the experience further? And **[19:03]** sometimes there is in support we will recommend it'll work better with one of these gateways. But I mean in most cases that's just because it would be too much work to go tell everyone what they're doing wrong. We do that too though actually which I'm sure you're not surprised by. But we do send them the emails. If you fix this this will be better. >> Yeah >> we do that plenty as well. >> Yeah that's kind of the platform responsibility. I see that internally at WOU too a lot of like hey if you just change this line in your extension we wouldn't be getting all this grief about performance. you know, it's definitely a thing that happens, you know. **[19:34]** >> Yeah. And that's actually one of those things that we don't we are careful not to make too many like broad recommendations for specific solutions within our plug-in itself, but when we're doing those like audits, you know, when we're helping a specific store with their permission to make recommendations, I mean, some work better than others, right? Like that is just I don't know that's like the strength and the weakness of WooCommerce being the extensibility is one of the things we all maybe struggle with a little bit. But I mean there's two ways you can focus on solving that, right? You can encapsulate everything, protect you from everything and really break **[20:05]** down the you ruin the ability to extend it further if you try to actually solve it at the root of that. Ultimately, you know, just being willing to be opinionated is a better solution. And you know, sometimes somebody's using a worse solution for a good reason. And you know, actually the the most common case that I see of that is sort of those like gray market stores where you know, they're using a payment gateway where maybe there's only like 80 people on Woo Commerce even using it. So the gateway isn't that great, but also they have to use it for whatever reason, right? And **[20:36]** we we want to support that too, just maybe not as much intentionality around it, right? >> Yeah. There's also like a a thing happening I think since the block editor came out where like there's the term extensibility and then I think there's a separate word called like customization and I think what we're seeing is a lot more customization. It's a lot easier to customize your site in the site editor and the block editor. It's a lot easier to customize a lot of these things in a way that like puts the power in the user's hand. I think Gutenberg and **[21:06]** everything built on after it is very like user centric and WooCommerce that would be like merchant centric like it's very typical of that and then developers are a bit like a second class just by default and so there's the customization has gotten way better and I find myself doing so much less coding on WordPress sites than I used to in the past like it's so much easier to just be like oh okay I can just do this thing now that I would have had to have written physical code for the the like sacrifice of that is that extensibility, but like where do **[21:38]** you think that trade-off is? Like is there maybe just some benefit to saying like, "Hey, we're just a little less extensible because we've made everything a little bit more powerful inside of this UI that we've granted everybody." >> Yeah. Know, and I totally get it. And I will say like even pointing back to Cliff's motivation for starting Check out WC in the first place, right? like the idea that as an agency, even as somebody capable of writing all the code to make it perfect and custom every time, if there's a tool you can use that to just skip that part, you'd rather do that, right? Like that's totally **[22:09]** understandable and that's kind of the direction both WordPress and Woo Commerce probably should be moving and are moving, right? I don't agree that you have to choose though and that's sort of the the the kind of broad as the feedback I've provided the Woo team in every place that I have the opportunity to do so which is yes you can make it easier to not need a developer you can continue to do those things but really there's no reason that you can't continue to maintain extensibility and interoperability and it's you're solving **[22:40]** sort of two different problems there of like the user experience of making things as easy as possible for a non-technical user which is like all of us should be doing every single building any part of any product for these platforms should be doing that's hard to argue but ultimately the thing that I see I mean woo especially but I think this is not explicitly just woo is there sort of that sort of like trend towards you know explicit APIs rather than you know extend anything anywhere I think that's sort of solving a different **[23:11]** problem and that's sort of the perception of stability the perception of security of the platform and all those things where again the greatest weakness of WordPress and Woo Commerce is that you can install any code you want and it's out there and every solution's been made and you can dream it, you can do it. That's why it's great, but that is also why people are choosing. You'll see a store with 95 plugins from 75 different developers and like yes, something's going to break. Like there's no >> Yeah, >> there's no way that that's always stable unless it's static. And so people need **[23:42]** to make better choices around that. I think that I do see Woo trending towards trying to solve that at the platform layer rather than sort of at the community layer. And I see that as a as a potential future problem rather than as part of like a dichconomy there. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's definitely a trade-off. I think the other thing we just in WordPress in general, you'll get a lot of people will get upset about a thing, right? Like let's take like admin notices in the back end of WordPress. Like everybody hates them. You get all these admin notices. They're upsells and nags and **[24:15]** give us a review and you know and everybody hates them. everybody every month somebody goes on Twitter and says like why don't they just like outlaw these in the plug-in directory as if that is one even achievable as like a thing a person could do and two would even begin to solve the problem of you know what people are actually doing on websites and how premium extensions and private extensions are a big part of this too and stuff and it's kind of like there is sometimes a sense that like WordPress like that's the one thing **[24:46]** about the site editor and everything inside of there is like it's kind of like it's all locked down and if you want extensibility you need to request it and we'll think about it and we'll add it because the alternative is admin notices on every page and upsell banners and ads all over your UI and stuff like that and I don't know if there's like a right answer but it's definitely a conversation that comes up a lot. >> Yeah. And I I see the benefit to it and you know I've seen all the GitHub discussions and it's like you know these are things that have been developing over a long period of time. Uh, I I think that there is room to allow it, **[25:17]** but to default, you know, default to restriction have sort of like the ability. The the current Woo checkout, the default Woo checkout today is a good example of this. Go to like Reddit or all the Slack communities and all that. People asking what all those little locks are as they're trying to tweak their checkout. And it's like, you know, that confusion around that um, you know, they can't modify it here and, you know, there's places they can add things and places they can't. that confusion. It's the user in that moment doesn't understand that they're being protected **[25:48]** from bad decisions. And >> yeah, >> maybe it's okay to warn them rather than prevent them is sort of just the pitch that I continue to make. And ultimately, like even in checkout WC, we have a lot of settings, a lot of things you can change, but like you got to go to like find the hook or filter and go write code to change a lot of things as well, right? Like you can't we protect you from bad decisions in a different way. And you know that being said, if you want to do it, you can still do it. And that's I think the big difference there. >> Now to your specific example though, I **[26:20]** do want to highlight I think it's Jonathan Bosinger shared in 19 the proposal for the WP Notify project that I know everyone's mad that everyone's putting admin notices everywhere all the time. That project's on.org somewhere and had precisely like zero volunteers. So yeah, I was I was a contributor to it for a little while and I won't go into the politics of it, but I think what it tried to do is solve a real problem, which is like you can't tell people not to do a thing until you give them the **[26:50]** right way to do the thing. Like first you have to at least have some sort of way to surface notifications. Like it actually is a little wild that WordPress doesn't have a unified system. Like sometimes my emails come from here, sometimes they come from like Woo Commerce, sometimes it comes from like the WordPress a new user was registered and that's just email notifications. That's not even like you know updates are available and all these other sorts of things like like but you do have to kind of give the right way to do it before you take away any bad ways to do it >> which I completely Exactly. And like I **[27:22]** mean ultimately if you did have a right way a place these belonged the bad actors would be punished by the market without being limited. Do you know what I mean? They don't need you don't need to prevent them. If somebody's abusing notices in the admin or whatever when there is a place to put it, I think people would be 10 times more mad than they already are, right? So >> yeah, it also reminds me of like you use Twitter a lot. I use Twitter a lot and I forget the guy's name that's like the product guy at Twitter that's constantly **[27:53]** tweeting. You know who I'm talking about? He's always like tweeting. I do. Nikita. Yeah. and he had a tweet recently that like offended me, but I also agreed with. And it was it was that concept of like he was just like uh he was whatever the bug people were mad about. I don't know if it was like the feed refreshes when I'm trying to read it or whatever. He picked some bug like that that everybody gets mad about. And he was like >> this bug has like 0% like effect on our churn or our business strategy at all. And it was basically like a lot of times things that you think are like little product things that bug you and they are **[28:24]** annoying. It's like no one's leaving WordPress because the admin notices like it's probably not that important. You know what I mean? But I can understand because it really does bother me those sorts of things, you know? >> And in that example, actually, he did share one point that there's some data to suggest it actually increases engagement because you're looking for the one that you lost, right? And so >> probably, yeah, >> their measures are actually benefiting them. It's still a bad user experience, though. That's one of those like the short-term versus long-term, right? Like in the moment, it's boosting. the thing we care about right now is getting **[28:55]** better. But in, you know, the the grand scheme of things, it's a better product to use, to experience. It's the balance of to to compare that again to admin notices, the reason everyone does them is they work. You know, you put a pro upsell in there. I I don't think our products have too much of that, but if you do that, you get a fair like the conversion rate justifies any complaints you get, and that's why everyone's doing it. It's not because >> Yeah. It's not because they hate you and they want to notify you of nothing, right? So, yeah, >> I really didn't want to go into the **[29:26]** weeds of like WordPress and extensive or like those kind of like more like meta debates about it. So, to wrap it up, I'm going to bring us to something a little more practical, which is you reminded me. I don't I don't know why I'd forgotten because it's uh I'm seeing it constantly at work, which is Black Friday is coming up. We have a ton of stuff internally. They're like publishing things on it and guides and you know all this stuff. So it's like very much aware, but you reminded me Black Friday's coming up. So I guess if you had like a concrete thing of like you're managing Woo store, you're like an agency, you're managing Woo Stores, **[29:57]** Black Friday's coming up. How do you think people should prepare so that like their checkout doesn't completely crumble under the pressure or they don't, you know, miss out on this like, you know, windfall of money they're about to make? >> Yeah. Uh so we do have a bit of a framework on the way I think about this that I don't know if I've written up anything on this. I probably stole this from someone, but it's confidence, conversion, sorry, confidence, conversion, continuity. So, it's what you should be thinking about leading into Black Friday. So, system reliability with confidence, you know, predictable behavior under load. If you **[30:28]** are a larger store, talk with your host, try to do some sort of load testing, do the work to see, you know, what what you can do there. We do have, you know, within our product, you know, we aim to be we reduce the number of changes we make to our products leading up to Black Friday, right? So, and I would encourage that in as far as confidence is concerned as well. You missed your window for for conversion testing for the year. What where you're at today is what you should be doing and just ramping up, you know, marketing leading into it. That confidence is really just don't break things right now. Make sure **[31:00]** that you can handle under load. And for smaller stores, like just at least do a test transaction leading into the Black Friday period. Just know it works. As far as the conversion is concerned, this again in the spirit of not changing a lot of stuff. This is not the time to worry about, you know, what upsells should I be doing and all that. Like come up with the offer you're going to make. And there is best practices there as well. I won't go down that separate rabbit hole, but you know, just make sure that you know the time from the product page to check out to order completed is as smooth and as quick as **[31:31]** possible. Again, serve the intent, reduce friction. If you are making any changes here, think about things like pre-fetching scripts, caching, like the things that are going to you're not messing with the machine. You're just, you know, speeding it up. >> Yeah. Throw an optimization plugin on there just a week before Black Friday. >> Five or six of them, you know, just make sure you've got all of the pieces. That is a joke. Please don't do that. Actually, just just in case. Just in case. And then continuity, which from my perspective, the the biggest thing **[32:02]** people actually miss from the monetization, the benefit of Black Friday itself is don't just maximize for like that the weekend sales. Think about the ways you're going to retain them as customers beyond the specific event. And so, you know, one of our products, Constellation, it's a membership solution. You can do like an upsell post purchase to to, you know, discounts in the future and gives them a reason to come back. Woo is a great gift cards plugin. you know, instead of making a huge discount, offer a credit for the new year or something as part of your offer. You know, do the things that **[32:33]** bring them back after the holiday period because everyone's going to make more sales on Black Friday. Very few stores do the work of actually making sure, you know, they're thinking about it in terms of lifetime revenue instead of just, you know, everyone loves the the biggest day of the year feeling, but that's actually, you know, you're giving up half the money if that's the way you're thinking about it basically. >> Awesome. That's helpful. Can you give us like where to find you, where to find your products, where to find the **[33:04]** podcast, the product talk, all that sort of stuff? >> Yeah, sure. Well, so if you want to reach me directly, I am on I guess exit basically all the time. Just Ian Meisner there. I do I will answer. I'm on there more often than I should be. As far as the products, so kestrelwp.com, kel behind me, I think, but the kestrelwp.com has links to everything. Also, we have a vendor page on the Woo Marketplace, so you can find us there as well. And in fact, most of our products are just sold on woocommerce.com, so **[33:35]** maybe check that out, too. But then as far as the podcast, I just recently joined with Matt Cromwell, Katie Keith, and Zack Gravity View. Gravity Kit >> Zack Cats. >> Zack Cat Cats. I do know Zach's name. I actually have known Zach longer than the other guys. So, here we are. But anyways, so I'm joining up with them as one of the co-hosts, and that's just Product Talk on YouTube. And Matt Cromwell will attack me if I don't tell you. you must go there and subscribe to WP Product Talk on YouTube because we **[34:06]** want you to do that. It's very important to him that we say that a lot of times. >> Awesome. Thank you, Ian. It's good to talk to you. >> Awesome. Cheers. >> Web Masters is hosted by me, Brian [music] Cords. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to like and subscribe, leave us a review, or share this episode. For more, visit webmasters.fm. FM. Until next time.