PHP Alive And Kicking - Episode 19 - Jim Seconde

PHP Alive And Kicking - Episode 19 - Jim Seconde 🔗 **Source:** [PHP Alive And Kicking - Episode 19 - Jim Seconde](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [php, devrel, community] > author: PHP Architect > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok > date created: 2024-12-27 08:35 > > # 🏷️ Title: PHP Alive And Kicking - Episode 19 - Jim Seconde >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Connect with PHP meetups — starting point for community involvement #networking - [H2] Try Laravel Cloud and LiveWire — new deployment and frontend tools #development - [H3] Explore native PHP development — emerging desktop application capabilities #innovation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [PHP Architect](https://phparch.com) - [Discord Community](https://discord.phparch.com) ## 📝 Summary - Interview with Jim Seconde, Senior Developer Advocate at Vonage, discussing his journey from actor to PHP developer to DevRel professional - Explores the welcoming PHP community, conference culture, and emerging innovations in the ecosystem - Highlights the current "second golden age" of PHP with Laravel Cloud, native PHP development, and improved async capabilities - Discusses the reality of developer relations work beyond the perceived glamour - Emphasizes community building, inclusivity, and the importance of feedback loops in open source ## 📖 Main Content Jim Seconde's career path illustrates the diverse routes into PHP development and developer relations. Starting as an actor in London theater while working temporary jobs, he discovered PHP through necessity when a temp agency placed him in an Oracle QA role. This led to full-stack development training in Symfony and eventually organizing the Birmingham PHP user group (PHPWM/Brum PHP). The conversation reveals the multifaceted nature of developer relations work, dispelling myths about it being purely glamorous travel and speaking. DevRel involves API design, sales support, metrics tracking, and extensive networking that extends well beyond conference hours. Seconde emphasizes that successful DevRel professionals typically fall into the role through community involvement rather than targeting it directly. The PHP community's welcoming nature emerges as a central theme, with detailed discussion of conference cultures, codes of conduct, and efforts to create inclusive environments. The speakers share anecdotes about PHP conferences, from the Wurst Con tradition to the challenge of organizing events that cater to diverse personalities and needs. Innovation in PHP receives significant attention, particularly Laravel's $57-58 million investment and resulting products like Laravel Cloud, LiveWire, Echo, and Reverb. Native PHP for desktop applications represents another frontier, alongside existing async capabilities through ReactPHP, Swoole, and Roadrunner that many outside PHP don't realize exist. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and elephant collecting culture - Key idea: PHP community has strong collectible culture around elephants - Evidence: "You can derail pretty much any PHP podcast with elephants" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=330) — [H2] Journey from theater to temp work to PHP - Key idea: Accidental entry through temp agency placement in Oracle QA - Evidence: "They basically said, 'He's a computer geek. Go and do an Oracle QA job.'" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=765) — [H3] Discovering the PHP meetup community - Key idea: PHP London provided free high-quality training and networking - Evidence: "You could just get free training... watch people at the top of their craft talk for free" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=1100) — [H2] Move to Birmingham and community leadership - Key idea: Dormant user groups create leadership opportunities - Evidence: "What happens when you go to a city and the user group is dormant? Congratulations, you're now the organizer" #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=1510) — [H1] Reality of developer relations work - Key idea: DevRel involves much more than speaking and requires specific personality traits - Evidence: "A conference ends at 5:00 in the afternoon. The conference doesn't end at 5:00 in the afternoon for me. The conference ends at 2 o'clock in the morning" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=1935) — [H3] DevRel metrics and business alignment - Key idea: Developer relations has concrete business metrics and accountability - Evidence: "If your metrics are bad, you're taken into a meeting room of why aren't your metrics good" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=2325) — [H2] Conference culture and Wurst Con tradition - Key idea: PHP conferences have unique traditions that build community bonds - Evidence: Story about selling hot dog hat for $100 to Danny DeVito lookalike #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=2730) — [H1] Conference organizing challenges - Key idea: Running conferences is thankless work requiring emotional management - Evidence: "It's an extremely difficult and very thankless task... you start to become slightly resentful" #### ⏱️ [52:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=3140) — [H2] Feedback loops and silent majorities - Key idea: Negative feedback dominates while positive experiences go unmentioned - Evidence: "As a speaker if you've done an awesome talk you'll hear absolutely nothing" #### ⏱️ [58:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=3490) — [H3] Inclusivity efforts at conferences - Key idea: Conferences actively work to create welcoming environments for all attendees - Evidence: Discussion of 50-50 gender split at Swedish DevSum conference #### ⏱️ [65:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=3945) — [H1] PHP's second golden age - Key idea: Current period represents significant innovation in PHP ecosystem - Evidence: "I think we're entering into a second golden age" #### ⏱️ [72:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=4350) — [H2] Laravel's major investment impact - Key idea: Laravel's $57-58 million investment enables significant product development - Evidence: Discussion of Laravel Cloud capabilities and team expansion #### ⏱️ [78:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok?t=4695) — [H3] Native PHP and desktop applications - Key idea: PHP expanding beyond web into desktop application development - Evidence: "Native PHP when it first kind of when I first saw it, I thought, okay, it does feel like sort of mad scientist stuff" ## 📚 References - [PHP Architect Magazine](https://phparch.com) - [Vonage Developer Platform](https://developer.vonage.com) - [Laravel Cloud](https://cloud.laravel.com) - [Native PHP](https://nativephp.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - PHP developers often enter the field through unconventional paths, with community involvement serving as a natural bridge to developer relations roles - Developer relations work involves significant behind-the-scenes business alignment, metrics tracking, and customer feedback gathering beyond public speaking - PHP conferences maintain strong community traditions while actively working to create inclusive environments for diverse attendees - The PHP ecosystem is experiencing renewed innovation through major investments in Laravel tooling and expansion into new domains like desktop applications ## 📰 Newsletter 🐘 **PHP's Community Spirit and Innovation Wave** The PHP community continues to demonstrate its welcoming nature while pushing technical boundaries. Jim Seconde's journey from temp worker to Vonage Developer Advocate illustrates how PHP's inclusive meetup culture creates natural pathways for career development and community leadership. **What's Exciting:** - Laravel's massive investment is yielding impressive tools like Laravel Cloud and improved real-time capabilities - Native PHP opens new possibilities for desktop application development - Conference culture balances fun traditions with serious inclusivity efforts **Getting Involved:** Join your local PHP meetup or check out upcoming conferences. The community actively seeks new voices and fresh perspectives. Remember: if a user group is dormant, that's your opportunity to step up and lead! **Technical Highlights:** PHP's async capabilities through ReactPHP, Swoole, and Roadrunner remain underappreciated outside the community. Combined with new tooling, PHP is well-positioned for modern application development. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Share PHP async capabilities and modern tooling with broader tech community - Education: Create content showcasing Laravel Cloud and native PHP capabilities - Developer experience: Improve feedback loops for customer API integrations - Community management: Foster inclusive conference environments with clear codes of conduct #### Community - Maintainers: Support local PHP user group organization and speaker development - Contributors: Encourage first-time conference attendance through mentorship programs - Sponsors: Invest in conference diversity and inclusion initiatives - Ecosystem: Bridge Laravel and Symfony communities for shared innovation #### WordPress - Community: Apply PHP conference inclusion practices to WordCamp organization - Training: Develop content on modern PHP features for WordPress developers - Marketing: Highlight WordPress's position in PHP ecosystem innovations ## 🧪 Hypotheses - PHP community involvement creates natural pathways to developer relations careers - Conference culture significantly impacts programming language adoption and retention - Major framework investments drive ecosystem-wide innovation cycles - Feedback loops in open source require active cultivation to surface positive signals ### 📊 Methodology - Survey PHP professionals on career pathway patterns - Analyze conference diversity metrics and community growth correlation - Track innovation diffusion from funded projects to broader ecosystem - Study feedback collection strategies in successful open source projects ### ❓ Questions - How can other programming communities replicate PHP's welcoming culture? - What metrics best measure developer relations effectiveness beyond traditional marketing KPIs? - Will native PHP gain sufficient adoption to establish PHP as a cross-platform development option? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term impact of Laravel's investment on PHP ecosystem direction - Effectiveness of conference codes of conduct in creating inclusive environments - Evolution of developer relations role as field matures and competition increases ### 💡 Implications - Practice: DevRel requires business metrics alignment, not just community engagement - Policy: Conference inclusivity requires active planning, not passive hoping - Education: Technical innovation must be communicated outside immediate communities - Funding: Strategic investments can drive ecosystem-wide innovation beyond direct recipients ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 10-12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Story-driven examples, conference imagery references - Improve: Code examples, architecture diagrams for Laravel Cloud and native PHP #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with conversational flow - Improve: Audio highlights of key technical concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich anecdotes, community terminology, clear definitions - Improve: Glossary of DevRel and conference terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step career progression narrative - Improve: Hands-on guides for starting user groups, trying new PHP tools #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect in career progression, investment-innovation relationships - Improve: Decision trees for DevRel career paths, innovation adoption timelines #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community focus, conference networking emphasis - Improve: Specific networking strategies, collaboration frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection on career choices - Improve: Self-assessment tools for DevRel readiness, individual learning paths #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about PHP community - Improve: Environmental analogies for community health and sustainability ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, conversational flow - Improve: Alt text for referenced visual elements, structured technical content #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast controls - Improve: Timestamped navigation, skip-ahead functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Text transcript available - Improve: High-contrast transcript formatting, adjustable text size #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Synchronized captions, downloadable formats ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: UK/US conference perspectives, discussion of Swedish conference diversity - Improve: Global PHP community examples, non-Western conference cultures #### Inclusive language - Present: Discussion of privilege acknowledgment, gender-neutral terms - Improve: Consistent inclusive terminology throughout #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Recognition of different comfort levels at conferences - Improve: Specific accommodations discussion, sensory considerations #### Representation - Present: Male-dominated conversation with awareness of gender imbalance - Improve: Diverse guest lineup, varied identity examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Codes of conduct discussion, quiet spaces mention - Improve: Specific harassment reporting procedures, support resources ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Career path examples support community value claims - Inductive strength: Multiple conference experiences build pattern recognition - Causal reasoning: Clear links between investment and innovation outcomes - Analogical strength: Theater background parallels with conference speaking #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Success stories may not represent typical experiences - Hasty generalization: Limited conference sample for diversity claims #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Casual, conversational, authentically enthusiastic about PHP community ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacking behavior noted - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this content - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Genuine enthusiasm and community pride, acknowledgment of privilege ## 🎯 Conclusion This conversation reveals PHP's strength lies not just in technical capabilities but in community culture that creates pathways for diverse career development. The combination of welcoming meetup environments, inclusive conference practices, and significant ecosystem investments positions PHP for continued relevance and growth. For practitioners, the key takeaway is that community involvement provides both technical learning and career advancement opportunities, whether toward traditional development roles or emerging fields like developer relations. The PHP community's emphasis on inclusivity and mentorship creates a model worth studying and replicating. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] PHP community involvement creates natural DevRel pathways > [!quote] [PHP Alive And Kicking - Episode 19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok) by [[PHP Architect]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-27. > "Do you realize what you're actually doing is basically a field called developer relations?" Career progression from community volunteer to professional advocate demonstrates value of authentic engagement. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch --- ## Full Transcript [00:14] Hello and welcome to PHP alive and [00:16] kicking brought to you by PHP architect [00:19] and made better by our partners at PHP [00:23] score. More about them later. This [00:25] podcast explores the developments in PHP [00:28] and what it's like to earn a living in [00:30] PHP today. I'm one of your hosts, Mike [00:33] Pageige, better known as Mike Page Dev. [00:35] And my co-host [00:37] that way pointed the wrong way is uh a [00:41] longtime contributor to our magazine and [00:43] now a team member, Chris Miller. [00:47] >> Not too bad. Thank you. Uh today's [00:50] episode is pre-recorded, but all you can [00:52] always jump into our Discord channel and [00:55] uh partake in the conversation. If [00:58] you're watching while this goes live on [01:00] YouTube or any of our other platforms, [01:03] you will find me and Chris in the chat [01:05] if you have any questions. [01:08] That is uh and then Discord is discord. [01:11] Pitchparch.com. [01:14] Uh we have a lovely uh discount code for [01:17] our magazine for our listeners. Uh a [01:20] live three will give you three months of [01:24] the digital subscription free when you [01:26] subscribe to a year. [01:29] I think that's all the points I had to [01:30] get on that one and in and right in this [01:33] time. Uh we also run a conference every [01:36] year. PHP Tech tickets are for on sale [01:40] for next year. We will be heading back [01:42] over to Chicago to run that 3-day event. [01:45] Lots of fun. Love to see as many of you [01:47] there as possible. And don't forget to [01:50] head over to our website to check out [01:52] our swag. We have t-shirts, hats, [01:56] bottles, all sorts of things over there. [01:58] Uh do go along and check them out. So [02:03] Chris, who have we got joining us today? [02:06] So today we have a good friend of mine [02:09] and senior developer advocate at [02:11] Vonnage. Jim Sakund. Hey Jim. [02:16] >> Hello everybody. Um I did I was about to [02:19] my my opening gambit was going to say [02:22] was going to be to tell Mike that you [02:23] that can you buy elephants on the merch [02:25] store. Now I don't want to cause too [02:28] much trouble but the merch store is 403 [02:31] so that needs to [02:33] >> is it? Yeah, [02:35] >> it's not [02:37] >> I blame Eric. [02:38] >> It's not a VPN. So, yeah. [02:41] >> That's such a That's such a terrible [02:43] opening can be. Your store's broken. [02:46] >> Um I will It's not broken. It's [02:50] something your end. [02:52] >> Isn't it? Okay. [02:53] >> There you go. There you go. Just to [02:54] prove it everyone [02:56] >> before we get accused of anything. Look, [02:58] the store is working. There we go. [03:00] >> I know exactly what it is, which is I am [03:02] on MY WORK MACHINE. [03:06] DOESN'T TRUST YOU. IT DOESN'T IT DOESN'T [03:08] trust architect merch merchandise. Are [03:10] elephants on there? [03:12] >> There there is an elephant linked [03:13] somewhere. Unfortunately, it's out of [03:16] stock. [03:17] >> It's not on the website anymore. [03:19] >> At the time of recording, we're out of [03:21] stock. [03:21] >> I remember I remember about a year and a [03:24] half, two years ago, you had leftover [03:26] Laravel elephants and someone announced [03:29] it on Twitter or something and it just [03:31] everyone was like, I'm going to go and [03:33] buy one. I'm going to go and buy one. [03:34] >> Yeah, I managed to grab one at tech uh [03:38] 24 before we uh put them up for sale. [03:40] So, I've I do have I have I have four. [03:43] You can see you can kind of gauge how [03:45] long someone's been in PHP by how many [03:48] elephants I have, I think. [03:50] >> Yeah, I'm I'm not in my normal office, [03:53] but in my normal office, um yeah, [03:56] there's probably about 50. And I've got [03:59] two oversized ones as well. I've got the [04:01] sillious one. Um, and I've got the I've [04:04] got the Franken PHP one as well. So, [04:05] which is which was released two weeks [04:07] ago. So, yeah, [04:08] >> lots of elephants. My favorite Well, [04:10] everyone has a favorite one. My favorite [04:12] one [04:13] >> is um the uh PHP True North um one which [04:19] is a woolly mammoth and that was created [04:23] by um True North which was Chris Hardes [04:26] in in Canada the testing guy. That guy. [04:29] >> Yeah. Um yeah, that that Woolly Mammoth [04:31] PHP um uh toy is just the best. It's [04:34] it's it's I love it. [04:36] >> See, this one is my favorite one, Jim. [04:39] Can you remember why? [04:41] >> Uh did I give you that? [04:42] >> You did. You actually gave me my first [04:45] elephant, and it is one of the early [04:46] Laravel ones. [04:48] >> That is the first That is the first [04:50] Laravel. My first one was the was the I [04:52] think my first one was the symphony, the [04:54] symphony one. Not symphony one, but the [04:57] first symphony one. And then I've got [04:58] the um then I've got the 15 Years Gray [05:02] Symphony one as well. Um so [05:04] >> I'm not going to go into the amount of [05:06] collectibles of these things I've got. [05:08] >> That's my most recent one. [05:10] >> You see that that that one for the for [05:13] the listeners. That's he's holding up [05:14] the PHP stand one. Um is that the new I [05:17] thought it had a hat on. [05:18] >> No. [05:19] >> Oh. [05:19] >> Or if it if it does this one doesn't. [05:23] >> I think it had a Christmas hat on or [05:25] something. Is that like is it a second? [05:27] Anyway, yes, I I'm I'm I'm need I don't [05:30] have a PHP stand one, so I do need a PHP [05:32] stand one. You can derail pretty much [05:35] any PHP podcast or discussion with [05:38] elephants. [05:38] >> Elephants. Yeah. [05:40] >> Yeah. [05:41] >> I I think at some point we actually need [05:43] to get the guy that creates the [05:44] elephants on. [05:46] >> I think that would be a good episode. [05:48] >> Yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah, [05:49] we'll uh make note of that one. Yeah, [05:52] I've had occasional like I had about two [05:56] vague [05:58] um Twitter conversations with him with [06:00] like one what sort of you know like [06:01] quick quick exchanges but I don't know [06:03] anything I don't know anything about it [06:05] but I know that Damian Sagai is the is [06:07] the other is the other one and he's he [06:10] if there's a new elephant and he knows [06:12] that I'm there you know I suddenly get a [06:13] DM on on on LinkedIn [06:16] >> because like I think I presume he has [06:19] the largest collection in the world [06:21] probably I wouldn't be surprised. [06:23] >> Yeah. [06:25] >> So, we we normally start the podcast [06:28] with this question, but we seem to have [06:30] gone way beyond that. So, let's ask the [06:32] question. [06:34] >> Yeah, pretty much. So, how did you get [06:36] into PHP? [06:39] >> The B the kind of the um the boring too [06:43] long too long didn't read of this is is [06:46] brilliant because it really is [06:48] um I had to pick something, didn't I? [06:56] It's a bit like there's I think there's [06:58] in in the in the the UK there's um [07:01] there's a there's a bit of Alan [07:02] Partridge where it's something like it's [07:05] a question like that like um you know [07:07] and what do you do for this I do and I [07:10] can't I can't remember what the [07:11] characters are or something or anything [07:12] about it but they say like they say [07:14] something unusual [07:16] person asking is like really that's a [07:19] bit why do you do Yeah. Oh, it's an [07:21] hour, isn't it? [07:24] Just something [07:27] I I got I got into I did um when I [07:31] arrived in London um attempting to start [07:35] a theater career, which I sort of I sort [07:39] of did actually. Um I did it at the same [07:41] time for about 10 years, which um burned [07:43] me out magnificently. Um doing two jobs [07:47] for 10 years. I had no days off. No days [07:49] off for 10 years. Um, I had one holiday [07:51] for a week and I went to Portugal to see [07:52] my brother. Um, [07:55] and I got I went to a temp agency. Do [07:58] they even do they even exist anymore? I [08:01] don't know. I went to the Deco because [08:03] I'd used them before, I think. And they [08:06] do the usual thing where to make sure [08:09] that you're not an idiot, they send you [08:11] to do something horrendous for two days [08:13] and then they send you to something [08:14] horrendous one more time just to see if [08:17] um you can communicate and you can turn [08:20] up to the place of work and leave at the [08:21] right time. That's basically it. The [08:23] first one was the first job the first [08:26] job was a day of photocopying. [08:29] So uh I photocopied [08:32] all all day. That's all I did. I can't [08:34] even remember the name of the company. [08:37] And the second one was off off the [08:39] Houston road in London. There was this [08:42] sort of charity conference space and I [08:45] was like the barista for two days except [08:48] when they had conferences in there were [08:51] like 30 people that were in the charity [08:54] sector and they hardly no one ever came [08:56] downstairs and if they did they came to [08:58] get a couple of biscuits. So, I [08:59] basically stood in this coffee area in a [09:03] basement for like two days. And on the [09:06] second day, this woman said, "Um, we [09:08] looked at your CV. You do you you've got [09:11] a past with computers." And I said, [09:12] "Well, yeah, I sort of do. Can you help [09:14] me with some Excel spreadsheet?" And it [09:16] was like something out of the um it was [09:18] like something out of the IT crowd. She [09:20] took me to her office and it was on the [09:22] ground level and it was right next to [09:24] where the tubes were coming under [09:26] Houston station. And so every sort of [09:30] every sort of three minutes while she [09:31] was sitting on the computer [09:36] like this is this is this is hell. This [09:39] is what and this she was like in her [09:41] mid-40s. I'm like is this your life like [09:43] doing Excel spreadsheets in this weird [09:45] dungeon? [09:49] And once you've done that then they then [09:52] they pull out more serious things. And [09:54] that's when they pulled out um a job out [09:56] of a hat for young people. I I'm I'm [09:59] scared for younger generations because [10:00] they because the these opportunities [10:02] don't exist anymore. They basically [10:04] said, "He's a computer geek. We don't [10:06] have many computer geeks on the on the [10:08] kind of on the on the on our books. Go [10:11] and do an Oracle QA job." And so I was [10:14] like, "All right." So I walked in and [10:17] this and this this project manager was [10:18] like, "Do you know what this means?" [10:20] like, "Oh, well, I'd never know I had [10:22] seen database query language with an an [10:24] old IBM um PS2 system, actually." And I [10:27] was like, "Uh, that's query language. It [10:29] sort of does this." And they're like, [10:30] "Okay, right. This guy will do." Um, so [10:34] loads and loads of and and and the the [10:36] experience of that is was was crazy [10:39] because it was the um [10:41] it was the offshore um it was the the [10:44] offshore to cheap territories kind of um [10:47] phase where it was being developed by [10:49] this this this this thing has been long [10:52] enough that I could mention it but I'm [10:54] not going I'm not what it is. I'm not [10:55] going to mention it but it doesn't [10:56] really matter. um was being developed in [10:58] in Bangalore which was becoming like a [11:00] massive tech hub and the communication [11:02] was just all over the place. None of the [11:05] developers knew what we wanted or why. [11:07] So it was like this massive learning [11:08] curve of learning Oracle and learning [11:11] the differences between Oracle and then [11:13] and then and then I I started writing [11:15] databases for actual county court [11:19] judgment data in Microsoft Access with [11:22] VBA. Remember VBA? [11:24] That was awful. Um and so I was looking [11:27] at the differences between all these [11:28] languages and I got into business. They [11:30] they they started pushing me towards [11:32] business intelligence and then [11:35] I started getting sort of limited by the [11:38] the kind of oper systems and IT manager [11:41] which was which was he was a bit old [11:43] school. It was round about the time that [11:46] AWS had really started. People were [11:49] starting to notice things like [11:51] virtualization [11:52] >> and um I wanted I said well I just [11:55] thought well what do I want to do in my [11:56] life? Well now I want to become a full [11:58] stack developer. How do you do that? I [12:00] asked them for training and they said [12:02] yeah sure we'll pay for training. Where [12:04] do you want to go? And I'm like I don't [12:05] know. and I found meter um at that point [12:08] and I started I basically typed in like [12:12] what's the most used stuff and obviously [12:15] there you go PHP was top so I was like [12:17] well I guess I learned that because [12:18] everyone else is and they sent me to um [12:22] there was a I think it still exists [12:23] actually there's a there's an agency in [12:25] London it's not really got the clout [12:27] that it used to have at one point it had [12:30] pretty much one of the most experienced [12:32] teams that I've ever seen I mean now I'd [12:34] probably say someone like something like [12:35] Rove Rove group has probably got that [12:37] those kind of people but uh it's called [12:39] Inva and they did symphony training. So [12:42] I trained symphony 2 and um got used to [12:46] the meetup space. So once once I you [12:49] know once I'd got those things that I [12:51] got my first job as a full stack [12:52] symphony developer at a startup and um [12:55] and that was it and then I was a PHP [12:57] dev. Um, I think those opportunities [13:00] >> and my personality and my ability to [13:03] make noise and the fact that if we're [13:05] going to be honest, I've I'm in a [13:07] privileged position basically being an [13:09] English posh white man. That's, you [13:11] know, not skirt around the fact. Um, I [13:13] went to Harry Potter school from age of [13:16] seven. I was bor I was a full border [13:17] from seven years old, right? [13:20] >> So, by all means, I should probably be [13:22] in the cabinet of the UK government. Um, [13:24] but I chose not to mix with those [13:26] people. Um, so it's been sort of handed [13:29] to me and and and that and the PHP space [13:31] is was so [13:34] welcoming and and and and I started I I [13:37] didn't realize you could just go up to [13:39] the speakers that were on stage. PHP [13:40] London was at Sainsbury's headquarters [13:42] at that point. Um, when I first started [13:44] going it was in a pub called [13:49] the something and something. Um, it was [13:51] it was I can't remember what it was [13:52] called the dog and and something. Um and [13:54] it and and I did a couple of sessions [13:56] there and then then there's the Sainsbur [13:58] headquarters and you could just get free [14:00] training. You just you signed in, you [14:02] got given I mean obviously they had a [14:04] selection of soft drinks but you just [14:05] get given like beers and food and then [14:09] you go and watch people that are at the [14:11] top of their craft talk for free and [14:14] then you go and ask them questions [14:16] afterwards. It was I was like why isn't [14:18] everyone doing this? This is insane. Um, [14:21] so that's kind of the that's the the the [14:24] origin story, the the evil baddy origin [14:26] story. Um, I might have to, as per [14:28] usual, of course, you might have heard. [14:29] I might have to let my cat in. [14:32] >> This sounds like a good plan. [14:35] >> I think I think I think my my uh I think [14:37] I think my wife has confiscated him. Um, [14:40] yeah, you can hear straight away. He [14:42] wants to come on the podcast. [14:46] So, this was all in London, but I know [14:48] you no longer live in London and ended [14:50] up in Birmingham and now you do this [14:52] thing called defro or dev advocacy in [14:54] your case. How the heck did that happen? [14:57] Um well the move was I I ironically I [15:03] never I I basically went through a very [15:06] very difficult period of my life but but [15:08] one of the one of the anchor factors and [15:11] the big problem was I didn't want I I [15:13] was never going to leave London. Um I'm [15:16] I'm half Brummy half cocky effectively [15:19] and [15:20] um [15:21] >> that's an interesting accent to to try [15:23] and concoct. don't have one. You want to [15:26] um so you know so uh I love to I used to [15:32] do people used to ask me to do it in the [15:33] pub. I'm like oh right most people are [15:35] rubbish at Brummy accents but obviously [15:36] you know kind of from there so I can do [15:38] it. Um [15:41] actually I live in the black country [15:42] now. We want to hear something really [15:43] mad that's [15:45] that's even that's even stronger. Um [15:49] there's um I mean it really really it [15:53] really boil boils down to buying a [15:56] house. That's that was it. It was I was [15:58] never going to leave London. [16:00] >> My girlfriend at the time my wife now um [16:04] we we started [16:06] looking at prop flats to buy. They're [16:09] all leaseold. Um so you don't own your [16:12] property. You have a you have you own [16:15] you own your property for for for 50 for [16:18] 55 years and then you have to pay it all [16:20] over again and then there's service [16:22] charge and then there's ground rent and [16:24] the places we were looking at were like [16:26] the edge of bow in East London and there [16:29] were kids that were maybe armed uh and [16:33] it's and they're like yeah and the agent [16:36] looks you square in the face and like [16:37] obviously this is too bad service is [16:38] £400,000 and you're like it's time to [16:41] get out of here. Um so [16:45] my um uh my my parents had um ret [16:48] retired and moved out of Birmingham and [16:50] my wife's parents had moved that moved [16:52] to Suffukk. So because of that we were [16:55] sort of tied where we couldn't go that [16:57] far north really otherwise otherwise I [17:00] pro it probably would have been leadeds [17:01] I imagine. I wanted Bristol but [17:04] Bristol's just as expensive as uh shout [17:07] out to PHP Southwest by the way the one [17:09] of the best user groups in the UK. um [17:12] David Edman will give me a get me a get [17:13] me a pint for that. Um [17:17] and so it was it was Birmingham and then [17:20] when I arrived in Birmingham [17:23] the PHP user group um which was PHPWM [17:27] was one of the honestly cat on then [17:35] there you go. It's all right. Yeah, I'll [17:38] let him in. [17:42] Um, he'll feature. Maybe you can do a [17:44] maybe you can do a a screenshot of when [17:46] he comes up and annoys me. He rubs his [17:49] face all over mine and he smells. [17:54] Um, just just stop meowing. Just come [17:56] on. [17:58] Come on then. [18:01] So, um, PHPWM I didn't realize was one [18:04] of the oldest, um, PHP user groups in, [18:08] uh, in, well, in Europe, really. Um, and [18:11] I think here's my here's my bomb drop [18:14] for the day in the world of developer [18:16] relations. It means it's a name that [18:18] means something, but I guess to my [18:21] audience, they they might not know, but [18:23] I think it was started or at least ran [18:26] for a bit by a guy called John O. Bacon [18:29] and he sort of created the [18:33] opensource community playbook if you [18:36] like. Um and he started off in the PHP [18:38] space. Quite a lot of people involved in [18:40] in the field of developer relations [18:44] started off from from PHP and most of [18:46] the like quite a bit from a little bit [18:48] from WordPress but quite quite a few [18:50] from Drupal actually. Um, so what [18:54] happens when you go to a city and the [18:57] user group is dormant and no one's doing [18:59] anything about it? Congratulations, [19:01] you're now the organizer. So I became an [19:04] organizer [19:05] >> and then I started a blog up which was I [19:08] don't want to ever see again because I [19:09] was a junior developer and it probably [19:10] is hopeless and I don't want to read [19:12] anything I wrote around that time. So, I [19:15] started a blog up and then I tried to [19:18] make a point of I don't have anything to [19:19] say, so I'm not going to get on stage to [19:20] speak at my own user group because it [19:22] feels a bit weird and a bit sort of [19:24] self-indulgent. But eventually I wrote a [19:26] talk and I didn't do it at the user [19:28] group which I renamed to Brum PHP. Um, [19:32] and so I didn't pitch it. I didn't speak [19:36] on stage at my own thing. Um, instead I [19:38] sort of took it around and I started [19:40] speaking. So really the conclusion to [19:42] all of this was I was speaking on stage [19:46] for free. I was writing for free. I was [19:49] networking and was already connected via [19:51] the London networks and the PHP scene [19:53] because that was all provided to me for [19:55] free. And then one day someone says, "Do [19:59] you realize what you're actually doing [20:00] is basically a field called developer [20:02] relations?" I was like, "Oh, okay. I've [20:03] never heard of that." Because it because [20:05] it was that's what that was what he was [20:07] doing. Um so uh that's when my career [20:10] change happened from just being a [20:12] fullstack developer [20:14] um to moving into into developer [20:16] relations which is I'm not going to go [20:18] into too much of it because it's quite a [20:20] niche field and when I'm talking [20:22] day-to-day with at the end of the day [20:24] what my my the people who the people I'm [20:27] talking to and the the conversations I'm [20:29] having with are engineers right and so I [20:31] I it used to be in the field of [20:33] developer relations that you you try to [20:35] be important by saying oh I do I I I'm a [20:38] I'm a Devril engineer. I do Devril. I [20:40] don't do that because I don't want them [20:43] to be put off by, oh, you're one of [20:44] those stage people, aren't you? Because [20:48] really, the end of the day, I'm I'm just [20:50] a fullstack dev. And well, I say [20:52] fullstack dev. I'm a fullstack dev [20:53] that's appalling at JavaScript and CSS. [20:56] So, you know, it it's it's being honest [20:59] with people and saying really what I do [21:02] is I, you know, write a lot of I started [21:05] off writing a lot of symphony and now I [21:06] write a lot of Laravel. So, I'm no [21:08] different from any of the other [21:10] attendees at this conference. [21:12] >> And that's kind of the the that's really [21:15] how to fall into the job. I think it's [21:17] very very niche and a lot of [21:20] boot campers and young people are like, [21:22] how can I go into this path? I I sort of [21:24] wouldn't recommend it. I think you have [21:26] to fall into it or it's got to be [21:28] pre-planned well in advance because it's [21:30] an extremely competitive and difficult [21:31] field. [21:33] >> It's it's an interesting concept as well [21:35] of people becoming developer relations [21:37] before they've been a developer. [21:39] >> Yeah. which is which is happening quite [21:41] a lot and um there's there's also a lot [21:44] of people that are um that have been [21:46] doing it for quite some time and at a [21:49] time when Devril was put on a pedestal [21:53] as the ultimate be all and end all and [21:55] we've se I've seen it with blockchain [21:56] and I've seen it now with AI we can get [21:58] on to AI stuff later because there's [22:00] something really applicable to what what [22:01] we do with that but the you need to hire [22:04] Devril and then you know I used to do [22:06] interview interviewing way before I [22:08] started Vonnage there and I go through [22:10] their sort of their product and their [22:12] business use case. I'm like, you just [22:14] need good engineering culture. You don't [22:15] need DER at all. Um, and so it's very [22:18] it's it's often misrepresented. Um, [22:22] junior developers think it's very kind [22:24] of um uh what's the uh not extravagant, [22:29] but um you know, it's very a glitzy kind [22:32] of world of I get to travel around the [22:34] world and do stuff. Yeah. Yes, you do [22:37] get to do that. But it is uh extremely [22:43] a delicate thing where burnout's really [22:45] really high. Um because when I do a [22:48] conference, a conference ends at 5:00 in [22:51] in the afternoon. The conference doesn't [22:53] end at 5:00 in the afternoon for me. The [22:55] conference ends at 2 o'clock in the [22:56] morning after I've been talking to [22:59] various people about tech all night. You [23:01] know, it's that's it's that kind of and [23:03] then you're up at 7 o'clock in the [23:04] morning to start it all over again. So, [23:06] I think people are saying it's very very [23:07] glam, like thinking it's really really [23:09] glamorous. You've you've got to be built [23:11] for this kind of thing. [23:13] >> It's it's interesting. I've spoken to [23:15] people who have said that they they see [23:17] it almost like the rockstar attitude of [23:20] go on stage for an hour, talk for a bit, [23:22] hype some people up, and then sit down. [23:25] If only it was that easy. [23:26] >> I mean, I I would love it if it was just [23:28] that. That would be that would be [23:29] brilliant, wouldn't it? just be getting [23:31] a great paycheck for sort of going [23:33] everyone adors me and then I get to go [23:35] off stage and do nothing. [23:36] >> Behind the scenes there is, you know, [23:39] there's there's API design, there's [23:41] helping sales and marketing with [23:43] targeted pitches. There's the actual [23:46] strategy of where you are with [23:49] developers of different languages. Um, [23:52] there's how you target your writing and [23:55] and and what's going to have success [23:57] rates. the metrics that come in are [23:59] reported upstairs. If your metrics are [24:01] bad, you know, you're taken into a [24:02] meeting room of why why aren't your [24:04] metrics good. This is, you know, it's [24:06] not it's not a fairy tale world. It's [24:08] it's hard, you know. I mean, it's it's [24:10] okay for me to say this because I'm [24:12] because I'm I'm built for it, you know. [24:15] My my my um uh my my degree is in [24:20] English literature and theater. The [24:22] major part of it is in is specifically [24:24] in acting. I trained as an actor. [24:26] dissertation is in standup comedy that I [24:28] did, you know, so it all merges into [24:32] really everything I I do. But, you know, [24:35] there's really difficult questions for [24:36] sort of people that are that that are [24:38] getting into sort of getting experience [24:39] in the field of actually speaking [24:41] without being in Devril. And they're [24:43] like, how do you deal with the nerves? [24:44] And I'm like, and I just think I I can't [24:46] it's really difficult. I can't help you [24:48] because I'm an actor, so I I don't get I [24:51] don't get the nerves. I get I get [24:52] adrenaline. That's different. That's [24:54] like I'm ready to go. So, it's um yeah, [24:57] it's a bit of a um I'm a bit of a odd [25:00] character though. [25:05] >> Well, on that note, I think it's time to [25:07] hear from our our partners. So, we'll be [25:10] right back. [25:14] >> Thank you to our partners at [25:15] phpscore.com. [25:17] Every app builds up technical debt over [25:19] time. It's the price we pay for shipping [25:21] new features and moving fast. When we [25:23] build up too much of it though, it can [25:25] start to impact how we work. Team [25:27] velocity suffers. Bugs become more [25:30] frequent and take longer to fix and [25:32] everyone starts to get a little [25:33] frustrated. The key to managing debt is [25:36] to measure it. A credit score can help [25:38] you understand how well you're managing [25:40] your financial debt. And now there's a [25:42] credit score for your technical debt. Go [25:45] to phpscore.com to get a free technical [25:47] debt score and monitoring for all of [25:50] your PHP applications today. [25:55] Thank you score. [25:57] >> I think that was the first time we've [25:59] ever got that on time. [26:01] >> I mean Jim didn't thank PHP score. [26:04] >> Well, we we we don't make it obligatory [26:07] for our guests. It's all right. You're [26:08] fine. Don't worry. He's just winding. [26:10] >> Thank you PHP score for all of your cool [26:12] stuff that you do with with PHP [26:14] profiling. [26:15] >> Thank you. [26:16] >> Thank you. [26:18] >> See, you're you're even a devro for [26:19] companies you don't know yet. [26:24] So, [26:25] >> I'm going to move on to the subject that [26:26] I did on the podcast last week that I'm [26:28] sure it will come up. [26:31] >> Is this the four-day drinking session or [26:33] is this the [26:34] >> what? [26:36] >> Oh, yes. Yes. [26:38] >> See, we've had a conversation with a [26:40] friend of yours recently who told us [26:42] that you forced them into a 4-day [26:44] drinking session. Jeter [26:51] lies [26:54] a total party animal. I tell you what we [26:56] saw. I tell you what we saw. Talking [26:58] talking of the sitting down like in a [27:00] restaurant having some drinks with Gina. [27:02] I tell you what we saw at API platform [27:04] conference and I've never seen anything [27:06] like it. It was the weirdest thing and [27:09] we didn't really know and everyone on [27:11] the table didn't know what to do. We [27:14] went to this quite cool sort of [27:19] Americanstyle smokehouse bar in Leo. Um, [27:22] and obviously there was quite a lot of [27:23] us uh on the final night and the the um [27:28] the waiter was completely overwhelmed [27:32] with the there was only one there's only [27:34] one waiter there and apparently there [27:38] was some previous with the barman and um [27:43] we're in this sort of mezzanine floor [27:44] and the barman was shouting up to to the [27:48] waiter and the waiter said something [27:50] back. I can't remember was because it [27:51] was it was it was in French but I do but [27:53] I did actually well I detected the swear [27:55] words [27:57] and and then and then what happened have [28:00] you ever been in a restaurant where [28:01] there I say restaurant casual dining [28:06] >> the barman came upstairs the waiter [28:09] nutted the barman in the face and then [28:13] they had a fullon fight like an assault [28:15] and we were like uh what [28:19] am I all these PHP developers just [28:22] sitting around a table having beers and [28:23] were like, "Uh, should we call the [28:26] police?" It was Gina got up and stepped [28:30] in and and the owner the owner sort of [28:32] like the owner got in the car and came [28:34] around straight away after all this [28:35] happened and basically calmed the whole [28:38] situation down pretty much singlehanded. [28:41] It was just nuts. Um, I I guess this is [28:44] what this is what happens when you [28:46] you're involved in conferences. just see [28:48] stuff that I remember um talking to [28:52] I can't remember who it was. Oh, it was [28:54] it was one of the I think it was Marco [28:56] Paveta I think the the doctoring guy and [29:00] it was one of his first US conferences [29:02] and he said and he was speaking to Matt [29:04] Tras and he said like um it's my first [29:07] time in the US with this type of thing. [29:09] I want to do gun stuff and Matt Tras was [29:11] like well sure you can do what do you [29:13] mean? What kind of gun stuff? I don't [29:15] know like gun stuff. So they just went [29:17] into went to a range and just got loads [29:20] of guns and just shot guns which of [29:22] course American culture is normal and to [29:25] us it's like what [29:30] conference conferences are conferences [29:31] are completely are completely do you [29:34] want do you want me before you ask the [29:35] next question do you want do you want [29:37] the conference story that I was going to [29:39] talk in the green room about because [29:43] >> yes let's go go back to so was it was [29:47] this um tech 24 [29:49] >> this was this was at tech uh this was at [29:51] tech 24 so [29:54] >> led the the the standard charge as led [29:58] by Ben Ramsey was the hot dog hats come [30:01] on because it's the birthplace of [30:03] firstcon and so I've got my hot dog hat [30:06] this story isn't even about the origin [30:08] of the hot dog hat that I had which is [30:10] the UK British approved version of the [30:12] hot dog hat because it was slightly [30:14] different I'm not even going to getting [30:15] to why that is. So, we all put our hot [30:18] dog hats on. Um, for anyone listening, [30:20] you've got to find out the story behind [30:22] Verscon Con and loads of PHP developers [30:25] turning up into in a documentary about [30:27] about about hot dogs. It's completely [30:29] ridiculous. So, um, the hot dog hat [30:33] comes on. We did we go to s we go to [30:35] Superdog, I think it is, is the sort of [30:37] the one they always want to go to. Um, [30:40] Ben Ramsey stands up and does the story [30:43] about Verse Con and and it's it's [30:45] honestly it's like sort of watching your [30:47] sort of your your dad who's your hero [30:49] sort of speaking in the middle of [30:50] Superdog where there are other customers [30:52] of course doesn't really matter. [30:55] We go back to this this the hotel near [30:57] the airport and this really strange [31:02] short man I'm quite short this short man [31:04] who was dressed in a suit. He looked a [31:07] bit like Danny DeVito [31:10] and he was hanging around the bar area [31:12] and he and he came to me. I've got a [31:15] real I've got a real difficulty now [31:17] because um I have to repeat his words [31:20] and of course he was swearing. So this [31:22] is really difficult. Um so I can't do a [31:25] onetoone impression of him but he said [31:27] he just he just walked up to me and went [31:28] I really like your hat. [31:31] Thanks. Why'd you get one for it? [31:35] It's [31:36] I'm not selling my hot dog hat. It's a, [31:39] you know, I've got it because we all [31:41] wear lots of I'm the only one who's kept [31:43] it on and it's a running joke within the [31:46] PHP. I don't I don't listen son. I don't [31:48] care. I don't care what you got to say. [31:50] I want that hat. And I sort of managed [31:52] to leave it a bit and then he came back [31:55] again and I was like, "Oh." And then he [31:56] goes, "Hey, I got a story for you. I'm [31:59] going to put this down here. I'm going [32:00] to take the hat and then you got a story [32:01] for your friends back in England. It's a [32:03] $100 bill." And I'm just like, [32:07] If it takes this to just get rid of you, [32:09] I'm going to have to take it. So I So [32:11] off the off this Danny DeVito lookalike [32:14] in a hotel in Chicago, I took a $100 for [32:16] the soding hot dog hat. I've still got [32:20] it. I've got the $100 bill of bill [32:22] framed. Um again, you know, this is just [32:26] what happens at, you know, conferences. [32:28] Strange things happen. Um but for anyone [32:30] that's kind of This doesn't always [32:32] happen, by the way. can just if you're [32:34] quite sort of introverted, you don't [32:35] have to get involved in all these [32:36] bonkers things. But this was happening [32:38] at the same time as uh I'm not going to [32:41] remember her name. Um and I I'm going to [32:44] be really upset with myself for not [32:46] remembering her name. She's from she's [32:47] from Wisconsin. And so because she's [32:49] from Wisconsin naturally, she's brought [32:52] three crates of Wisconsin craft beer [32:55] that blow your head off and we're all [32:57] sampling that at the same time. So it [32:59] was just it was all it was all over the [33:01] place. But remember, whilst these things [33:02] are happening, you've got the conference [33:04] organizers that are there. So it's not [33:06] officially under the code of conduct, [33:08] but it sort of is. You know, you have to [33:10] know what you're doing. You know, you [33:12] can't overstep the mark. If you do, [33:14] well, you're out. [33:16] >> And yeah, I've I've I've [33:19] started running meetups, codes of [33:22] conduct seemed like some sort of strange [33:24] overkill and I didn't really I thought I [33:25] was like, do we do these things really [33:27] need this? Well, apparently everyone [33:28] tells and I've had to enforce them and [33:31] and I'm surprised actually at like how [33:33] many people you get that break them, [33:35] >> right? [33:36] >> I'll let you speak now. [33:39] >> Well, normally when when you're doing [33:41] your your worst con is it whatever you [33:45] >> Verscon. That's it. Versourage new PHP [33:47] developers to get involved with it [33:48] because it's slowly kind of dying out [33:50] and it's a fun tradition. So, [33:52] >> it's pretty popular at tech if I [33:54] remember rightly. Unfortunately, we [33:56] don't we we don't get to join in at tech [33:59] because we're stripping everything down [34:01] and packing up. At that point, you've [34:03] all gone out for your hot dogs and just [34:05] left us with all these rooms to pack up [34:07] and strip down and we're not allowed to [34:10] eat until it's done. [34:12] Eric's there with his whip. [34:14] >> Yeah. I mean I've been running a [34:18] conference is a is a a very you know for [34:22] >> insight and for listeners running a [34:24] conference is an extremely [34:26] difficult and very thankless task. It [34:29] requires an immense amount of work and [34:33] a lot of the time a lot of the time you [34:36] have to you have to you have to watch [34:38] your emotions because you'll become you [34:40] start to become slightly resentful and [34:43] angry at times when this is when you're [34:45] sort of like running a small te like a [34:47] small team that doing conference because [34:49] honestly when when the feedback comes in [34:52] you'll just see stuff and you're like [34:53] really I've just done this conference [34:55] and the tickets are like sort of $200 [34:58] And for what you get, you get to see the [35:00] leaders of an entire programming [35:01] language that we've had to curate and [35:03] put together and then we've had to [35:05] include all the food and everything and [35:07] you're really grumpy about gender [35:08] genderneutral toilets. Is that really [35:11] like is that what is that really what's [35:12] what what what's bothering you? Um it's [35:15] not great. And I've run meetups. I've [35:18] run a couple of conferences and it's [35:20] always the same. So you know um if [35:23] >> listeners listeners can have can can you [35:25] know I'm basically saying you know m [35:27] make sure you thank your conference [35:28] organizers because it's a hard job [35:31] >> and the other thing is as well feedback [35:32] you naturally get the negative but [35:34] rarely do you actually get good feedback [35:36] of like you know what that was brilliant [35:38] >> as a speaker if you've done an awesome [35:40] talk you'll hear absolutely nothing if [35:42] you've done something that wow actually [35:45] brigade come on then you'll you'll know [35:47] about it because they'll all mention it [35:48] and so it's very and It's the same with [35:51] the active conference organizing itself. [35:52] It's very very difficult to only get [35:55] negative feedback when usually it's the [35:57] sort of uh it's the silent majority that [36:00] are actually should be um sort of [36:03] carrying the the opinion of the event. [36:04] Um but that's always that's always the [36:06] way across [36:08] across things really which is that um [36:10] that uh when it comes into developer [36:13] relations the obviously the most [36:15] valuable thing that we have you know [36:17] advantage specifically at my team is [36:19] feedback from customers getting is hard. [36:22] They're just if they've got something [36:23] ticking along and they're and they're [36:25] sending two two, you know, two million [36:28] um two million text messages or they've [36:30] got two factor authentication using our [36:32] verify API and they've got an [36:35] integration that hasn't changed with the [36:36] PHP SDK for three years. They're not [36:38] going they're not going to write to you [36:40] and say, "Do you know what? Fantastic [36:42] job. It's running as usual." So, they [36:44] won't say anything. And if you ask them, [36:45] they'll be like, "Oh, yeah. We'll get [36:46] round to it." And then you never it's it [36:48] the feedback loop is [36:50] >> difficult. [36:52] Reminds me of that meme that you see. [36:54] It's specifically targeted at it, but [36:57] everything's going well. Why are we even [36:58] employing you people? Everything's going [37:00] badly. Why are we even employing you [37:02] people? [37:06] >> The memes I always identify with. [37:08] There's that one. Um, then there's the [37:11] thing that I've seen a lot of in the [37:15] financial sector because I was adjacent [37:17] to the financial sector for a bit as [37:19] well, which is I can't remember what it [37:21] is. It's not I don't think it's one of [37:23] the regular tech um one of the regular [37:25] tech cartoons. Um I think it's like it [37:29] feels like something like Gary Lson or [37:30] something like that, but I don't think [37:31] it's as old as that. But it's it's where [37:33] there's like nine managers around a hole [37:37] in the ground and they're all pointing [37:39] at Dave who's doing the digging and [37:41] they're like Dave's not doing a good [37:44] enough job. I can't I'm not going to [37:47] name them. There's there's there's one [37:49] that was just so funny. There was like, [37:50] you know, it was it was it was a mate of [37:53] mine had like four managers and they [37:55] were all fighting amongst themselves, [37:56] but there's only one person to do the [37:59] work. [38:01] That that makes no sense whatsoever. [38:04] >> Yes. Ma managers managers managers [38:08] >> this podcast we've mentioned nothing [38:10] about the future of PHP and what's [38:12] exciting. [38:13] >> This is we're getting there. We're [38:14] getting up. [38:16] >> I'm I'm hoping that you know three [38:17] quarters of this makes the cutting room [38:19] floor until I actually talk about the [38:20] reason why the podcast is here. [38:22] >> I know at the moment we're not cutting [38:24] anything out. This is all [38:26] >> this is this is genuinely brilliant. But [38:29] this also shows you we're all human and [38:33] and the sort of the different [38:34] personalities and and things like that. [38:37] We're trying to be one of the things [38:39] we're trying to do is attract new people [38:40] to PHP. And one of the greatest things [38:44] is talking about things like our um the [38:48] conferences that within PHP and the the [38:52] fun you can have or not have depend on I [38:55] mean I'm very I have a lot of uh social [38:57] anxieties. Um and I've talked about it a [39:01] number of times on different shows and [39:02] and different varieties. Um, one of the [39:05] first things is the first PHP tech I [39:08] went to, uh, sorry, PHP conference I [39:10] went to was tech. Um, luckily I I work [39:15] worked for PHP architect. So I was flown [39:17] out to Chicago to work. Uh, I do my [39:20] background is actually in theater tech. [39:24] Um, so I'm actually a lighting sound [39:26] engineer in theater. Part of my story, [39:29] it's part of my story I didn't say is [39:30] that I didn't actually end up going on [39:32] stage as an actor for 10 years when I [39:33] worked in theater. I did that. I did [39:36] what you I did lighting design, sound [39:38] design. [39:39] >> We need so I I still do it. I do it more [39:41] as a hobby now um that for a local local [39:43] group um that my wife does a lot of [39:46] acting with. So we I do their their [39:48] shows. But um so I I I've get I've got [39:51] flow flown out to work on that. and [39:53] being what I thought was going to be [39:55] like the only person from the UK [39:58] um there and feeling very welcome until [40:01] the last night when this really random [40:03] drunk strange bloke walks up to me and [40:06] says, "Oh, another British accent." And [40:08] then just walks off before I could [40:10] respond or even start a conversation [40:12] with him [40:14] >> and now doesn't remember. Now doesn't [40:16] remember that. [40:17] >> It's not clear to the listeners the [40:19] person he's talking about is me. Um of I [40:23] don't know. I don't remember. [40:25] >> So, are we establishing a pattern here [40:28] that you are mainly drunk in the foyer [40:31] or mainly talking to people? [40:33] >> That's not that not true. [40:34] >> It's in all fairness, it's the last [40:36] night, so the conference has officially [40:38] finished. [40:39] >> It makes [40:41] me sound like [40:43] like a sort of a nightmare alcoholic. [40:45] Um, no it's it's it's a it's a party and [40:49] and as you as as you say it's it with [40:51] codes of conduct and with co the [40:53] conference organizers of things like of [40:57] things like symfony con and laron and [40:59] the old ones that are still going like [41:02] Dutch PHP conference PHP tech [41:04] longonghorn PHP and um PHP UK [41:09] they they're they're experienced [41:12] conference organizers that know that you [41:14] have to you have to cater for a variety [41:16] of people. You can be part of the party. [41:19] You can not be part of the party if you [41:20] don't want to be. You're not kind of [41:23] >> I think I think the first night in tech [41:24] and I think they did this probably did [41:26] this probably this year because they [41:28] always do. It's like they the first [41:30] conference social is a very wellbalanced [41:33] thing where it encou there's there's [41:36] there's there's alcohol if you want it. [41:39] >> That's obviously optional. There's [41:40] obviously other options where you don't [41:42] have them. The primary theme is board [41:43] game is indie board gaming. That's kind [41:46] of perfect because sort of everyone what [41:48] gets what they want. I mean I didn't get [41:50] what I want which is I joined a poker [41:52] table with Sarah Goldman and lost my [41:54] mind so quickly [41:56] like [41:59] >> super animated about the poker about the [42:02] poker game. Um, and so yeah, any like [42:06] you can you can get what you want. If [42:07] you want to just, you know, if you're [42:11] if you're especially especially like if [42:12] you're part of a if you're part of [42:14] company tickets, it's fine. But if [42:16] you're um if you're on your own and [42:18] unfamiliar an unfamiliar territory and [42:20] and some of this comes into some of this [42:22] comes into the code of conduct and [42:24] safeguarding, especially for you know [42:26] non nonwhite male BS. um is if you if [42:31] you're a if you're if you're a woman or [42:33] you're you know or you're a woman of [42:34] color on your own. Um I don't I'm trying [42:37] to remember if that's the correct phrase [42:38] you can say because that's come back [42:39] into language but I it's it's it's an [42:44] intimidating environment you know and [42:46] and you never know what you're going to [42:48] get. I I think with with with se looking [42:50] at the European sea symphony well [42:53] actually rather than symphony a better [42:54] one is devfest [42:56] and [42:58] is that what it's called? No it's not [42:59] what it's called at all. It's devum and [43:01] that's in Sweden. I did that this year [43:04] and the split was or it was in Sweden, [43:07] right? And Sweden is a very very sort of [43:09] like a sort of a cultural equality. It's [43:12] famous for equality. That was almost a [43:14] 50-50 split. I've never seen that. I've [43:17] never really seen that at a conference. [43:18] And that was that included. They were [43:20] like, you know, there was there were [43:21] South Asian people, they were black [43:23] people, and they could be American, they [43:24] could be European, uh they could be, you [43:27] know, they could have come over from [43:28] India or Pakistan or stuff like it was [43:30] just nothing really sort of mattered. [43:32] So, um whereas some conferences you [43:36] don't you just don't get that split and [43:37] sometimes it's very very difficult, but [43:39] you have to try to make it make it that [43:40] way. [43:41] That's why we have these codes of [43:43] conduct. It's very very intimidating. [43:44] And what I'd like to try and convey is [43:47] that every single conference that I've [43:50] ever been to. I mean, I'm I'm supposed [43:53] to be a lead I don't know, a leader or [43:56] whatever it is in the PHP scene. And [43:58] bearing in mind, I still regard myself [44:00] as uh kind of a sort of a young whippers [44:02] snapper considering the experience some [44:04] of the other people have got there. is [44:06] it it's sort of everyone's job in a way [44:08] to like if the circle if the semicircle [44:10] is closed off then you move and then you [44:12] go oh what do you do I've personally in [44:15] PHP I can't speak for other languages [44:17] seen a lot of that happening [44:20] >> um and I I can speak for the I can speak [44:24] for the community from the Laravel [44:26] perspective that the Larabel's scheme [44:28] has been has looked from what I can see [44:32] pretty sort of you know successful and I [44:34] mentor on it as Well, um that that's [44:37] kind of the next it that's really the [44:39] sort of modern iteration of the original [44:40] PHP women, but I don't re that was [44:43] before my time. [44:45] >> Yeah, I will I will correct one slight [44:47] thing you did say because you say uh [44:50] conference [44:51] um organizers have to c cater for lots [44:55] of different people. I feel that [44:57] especially with tech and yes I'm biased [44:59] but with tech we want to we want to [45:02] cater for everyone that's come. So, it's [45:05] >> it's welcoming for anyone. Um, this is [45:09] one of the things that we've really [45:10] strived to do. Uh, and for my first time [45:13] going over, even though I was a member [45:15] of the team, I did feel very welcome. [45:18] Um, I I'm very much the sort of person [45:20] that I won't come and talk to you if I [45:22] don't know who you are, but if you come [45:23] and say hi to me, we'll talk for hours. [45:26] I have to have that icebreaker from the [45:28] other person. I can't do I can't do the [45:30] icebreaker. I've always struggled with [45:31] that. Um so and I felt I found that very [45:35] easy when I went to tech there was the [45:37] number of people just talk to you just [45:40] sort of end up sitting at the same table [45:41] like in the evening. So, so um we will [45:44] have um although it's officially only [45:47] one night we do the ball games, it's [45:49] actually both on the the first and [45:50] second day, we'll people will be in the [45:53] main room playing and I'm I'm normally [45:55] sitting with a chess set. So, people [45:56] come and play me play a game of chess [45:58] with me. Um or there'll be all sorts of [46:02] games going on. I can't I'm trying to [46:03] remember. I end up playing something [46:05] with some something with Derek for quite [46:09] a long time. One evening, which I [46:10] probably shouldn't have done because I [46:11] was actually really ill with a cold this [46:14] year. I was and and I had had to [46:17] experience the the US medical system [46:19] because I had an accident on the first [46:21] day there. [46:22] >> Oh, [46:22] >> yeah. I dropped a I dropped a speaker. I [46:24] was I was um I was lifting I was putting [46:27] the speakers up, lifting the pole up, [46:29] wasn't quite concentrating. Let go. [46:31] didn't get my finger out of the way [46:32] quick enough and squashed my finger at [46:35] the top top of the the the pole and [46:37] underneath the the speaker. That was [46:38] fun. And we couldn't get it to stop [46:40] bleeding. So, I had to go to the the uh [46:42] one of the emergency rooms that I got [46:44] taken down to. And then I came down with [46:46] this cold. So, I'm trying to deal with [46:48] the pain of my finger and the cold. So, [46:51] it wasn't the most fun week for me this [46:53] year, unfortunately. [46:54] >> A bit of war story that isn't it really? [46:56] >> Yeah, I know. Um, but I'll tell you [46:58] what, one one of the good things that [46:59] came out of it is that I flew however [47:02] many miles away it is to meet Chris for [47:04] the first time. [47:06] >> Yes. [47:06] >> I mean, you know, you you you see that [47:09] as a bonus and I see that as a as a bit [47:11] of as as um something that's a um not is [47:15] like a sort of the opposite of a perk [47:16] really. [47:18] >> Well, that that's your opinion. [47:19] Everyone's got their own opinion. Um [47:20] yours is [47:22] >> yours is wrong, but [47:23] >> you are entitled to have your wrong [47:24] opinion. Mind you, I have to be nice [47:26] because Chris does have my tech [47:28] elephant. So, [47:31] >> I do [47:33] >> I need to get on the bus for 25 minutes [47:35] to go and get my tech elephant at some [47:38] point. I don't know when that'll be. [47:41] >> All you need to do is tell me when [47:42] you're in town and I will bring it to [47:43] you. [47:44] >> Are you not you're not both at um a [47:47] conference fairly soon at the time of [47:49] this [47:49] >> recording? [47:51] I mean, if we haven't met before the [47:53] 14th of November, I will bring it with [47:55] me. So, you'll be having me bring that [47:57] and you'll be bringing something else [47:58] for Mike. And basically, we're all just [48:00] going to swap over [48:02] the native PHP snapback. Um, yeah, I [48:07] Yeah, there's lots of lots of lots of [48:09] transport and logistics to happen by the [48:11] sounds of things. [48:13] >> Well, that's that's quite a nice sort of [48:15] conversation about uh conferences. to do [48:18] get down to conferences and and you're [48:21] not obliged to join in with everything [48:23] if you don't feel comfortable. So, [48:24] please don't feel like you have to, [48:27] >> but the PHP community is so welcoming to [48:30] new people and someone there will talk [48:33] to you and chat to you and [48:35] >> take them take you under your wing or or [48:37] whatever or if you just need to go back [48:39] to your room. Mo most conferences now [48:42] have spaces for people like a quiet [48:44] room. We we certainly do as tech. [48:45] There's a quiet room where you can go [48:47] during the day and and the beauty of [48:49] tech at the moment is that we we do it [48:51] in a hotel. So you and most people are [48:53] staying in the same hotel. So you go up [48:55] to your room [48:56] >> and and and if you need that time out, [48:58] we complete completely understand. I [49:00] don't get that privilege because I'm [49:01] normally running around like a complete [49:03] and utter idiot most of the day [49:06] trying to make sure that all the tech [49:08] works. But let's uh let's segue on a [49:12] little bit more. So, one of the things [49:14] that we really want to try and uh do in [49:17] in as part of this sort of show and this [49:19] podcast is talk a bit about um cool new [49:23] stuff that's coming in P into into PHP. [49:26] Uh so, what sort of things at the moment [49:28] for you, Jim, that's kind of exciting [49:30] new about PHP? [49:32] I think I think we're we're [49:36] I think we're entering into a into a [49:38] sort of um second second golden age if [49:44] you like. The f the first golden age [49:46] you'd probably say is the acceleration [49:48] of both Symphony and and Laravel really. [49:52] um well or you could say the rise of [49:55] CMSs, but a lot of those CMSs in legacy [49:57] PHP are pretty, you know, pretty sort of [50:00] pretty scary under the hood. Um, [50:03] but I'd say that that that there's been [50:08] there's about this there's there's the [50:10] in the innovation the innovation that's [50:13] happening from [50:15] both the Laravel and Symphony [50:18] communities and then seeing both of [50:20] those communities collaborate with each [50:23] other and [50:26] >> talk to each other and and and speak at [50:28] each other's conferences and things like [50:30] this is [50:33] what is making everything very very [50:35] exciting from the innovation [50:37] perspective. I mean there's there's [50:39] things that there's there's old stuff [50:42] that still hasn't been that there's [50:44] there's there's things that have been [50:45] around a long time that still haven't [50:46] been transmitted outside of the PHP [50:49] space that we know about. And this came [50:51] up on the on the PHP podcast which is a [50:54] CTO addressing other CTOs and saying [50:56] that Pearl and PHP is legacy. Pearl I [50:59] would argue is but that's just sort of a [51:03] fact really [51:04] >> and that's not really that's there's no [51:07] you know the reasoning is fairly sort of [51:09] boring but but PHP the only reason why [51:11] it's still the way it is is because the [51:13] innovation behind it. So [51:18] I think I think I've spoken to several [51:20] developers that first of all don't know [51:21] that that that through that you don't [51:23] even have with React PHP you don't even [51:26] have one choice of event loop you have [51:30] multiple choices of event loops if you [51:32] want to run an event loop and that's [51:34] been that's been around since before PHP [51:38] fibers came in [51:40] >> there was still an event loop so when [51:42] anyone does the sort of when anyone who [51:45] is tends to be inexperienced as PHP is [51:48] slow and old and you're like right why [51:50] do you think that sometimes 50% of the [51:52] time they come from node world and they [51:54] say well you know we have an event [51:55] invent event link that's that runs [51:56] asynchronously okay [51:59] so what you can do [52:02] um and you know that brings into that [52:07] bring brings into the fact that we've [52:08] had you know we've had swole and now [52:11] swool plus open swole of the sort of [52:13] split from that and roadrunner and stuff [52:15] that we've had it for years. Um, it's [52:19] just that it's not really being [52:21] communicated outside the PHP space. So, [52:23] we've already had this kind of [52:26] >> I I think really you could say the [52:28] origin story of the innovations [52:29] happening now comes from um hip- hop [52:32] virtual machine and the sort of the kick [52:34] that that Facebook gave back to PHP and [52:37] then we ended up with seven where the [52:38] performance and the benchmarking and we [52:40] had the chip compiler and stuff like [52:41] that. But [52:44] there's the the new sort of crop of [52:46] things that's really that's that's [52:48] really exciting is um is coming from two [52:53] major parts and f firstly it is um in [52:58] Laravel land you have the um you have [53:01] the 57 or 58 million investment from [53:04] Excel and Laravel have expanded their [53:07] team massively very quick rate [53:11] >> and I watched Joe Dixon give a keynote [53:14] where he did his the first kind of demo [53:17] I've seen. Well, it's not actually. It's [53:18] a second demo, but now as a mature [53:21] product of Laravel Cloud, and I couldn't [53:24] quite believe what I was looking at. I [53:26] just thought, okay, that's where the [53:28] money's. That's where the money. [53:31] I've written an article that's due for [53:32] public publication soon on Nightw Watch. [53:35] Um, I wrote um a Vonnage RCS messaging [53:40] app and I used LiveWire for the first [53:42] time. I know, I know I'm slow, but you [53:44] know, the cogs of enterprise move [53:46] slower. We have we think about [53:49] >> um but I didn't just just do it with [53:51] Live Wire. I did it with Live Wire and I [53:52] did it with Echo and Reverb. And to [53:54] watch Reverb in action, I was like, [53:56] okay, this is this is really quite [53:59] something. [54:01] Um, and then from that community, the [54:04] big one for me is probably native PHP. [54:07] >> I think that native PHP when it first [54:10] kind of when I first saw it, I thought, [54:13] >> okay, it does feel like sort of mad [54:15] scientist stuff and [54:17] is there a need is there a need is like [54:19] how much adoption is there going to be? [54:21] How much demand for it is is there? But [54:23] from speaking to Shane and and Simon, [54:27] the kind of the kind of target of what [54:31] they want to be able to do, which is [54:33] effectively I mean it starts with [54:35] Laravel, but if you support them and you [54:37] start deploying to production, they get [54:39] maybe they can do a symfony wrapper as [54:41] well. Mhm. [54:41] >> The ability to boot up a Laravel app, [54:44] write your Laravel app, and then just [54:46] have it natively running and have access [54:50] to the entire native APIs of either an [54:52] iOS or an Android device. [54:55] >> Mhm. [54:56] >> Is sort of a product killer because I [54:58] know the mobile market and you speak to [55:00] a Flutter developer and I'll tell you [55:02] what, if there's one thing that Flutter [55:04] developers hate, it's Flutter. [55:06] >> Yeah. And now and now they have Bifrost [55:09] >> and and that [55:11] >> that makes it even easier. [55:13] >> They've got cloud bills for for it. So [55:16] with with by for anyone doesn't know [55:18] Bifrost is is the company and that's the [55:20] that's that's the the cloud built built [55:22] platform for it to be able to say you [55:25] can just there's an external appeal to [55:28] do you know how easy it is to write a [55:30] native web app? you can just do a laral [55:32] app and it will just build natively onto [55:35] Android or iOS [55:36] >> is is kind of a bit of a kind of market [55:41] game changer I think personally. [55:42] >> Oh definitely. Yeah, definitely [55:45] >> from the symphony world. That's that's [55:46] the blur of a world. From the symphony [55:48] world, [55:49] >> um my f my talk was a discovery talk on [55:53] starting out with API platform and bear [55:55] in mind that API platform has been [55:56] around for 10 years and I've heard of [55:58] it. [55:59] >> But to actually use it absolutely blew [56:02] my head off. I've never seen anything [56:04] like it. It it it just it created out of [56:06] all of my eloquent models. Doesn't [56:08] really matter. If you want Symphony, you [56:10] could just do it. It's just ind doctrine [56:11] entities. You put one tag on and then [56:14] start picking what attributes it uses [56:16] >> and it just exposes all of your API. [56:19] It's nuts. And and and a .NET developer [56:22] was in the audience who was a who's one [56:24] of my team members and he was like, [56:25] okay, I didn't know this was possible. [56:28] This is this is quite powerful stuff. [56:30] And I'm like, yeah, the fact that it [56:32] then comes with a front end where you [56:35] for/ API and it it gives you like a [56:37] swagger open API spec just like it's [56:40] nuts. It's absolutely nuts. Um, so I [56:44] mean that's one thing and then you've [56:45] got franken PHP which is going to chase [56:48] which is going to change the default [56:50] runtime of running PHP on the web which [56:53] is the majority use case of it anyway. [56:56] >> As far as I'm concerned it sounds like [56:57] everything should be using Franco PHP [56:59] just everything. Um it it's looking at [57:02] all the I mean looking at all the [57:03] benchmarks and what kind of impact and [57:06] especially for if you have sort of like [57:09] data workers service worker type things [57:11] that are like either polling or running [57:13] on crown jobs. [57:15] It's it's it's just it's it's kind of [57:18] like blowing other languages runtimes [57:21] kind of out the water a bit. Mhm. [57:23] >> And of course, like I said, no one no [57:26] one knows outside the PHP space because [57:27] we're old hat and you know, and everyone [57:30] still thinks that um everyone still [57:33] thinks that [57:35] oh, I'm going to say it. Sorry. [57:37] Everything everyone thinks that all the [57:38] code looks like sort of WordPress code [57:40] and and you know, this is with a with a [57:43] with a pinch of salt. I'm going to say [57:44] I'm going to say this. I have uttermost [57:46] respect for WordPress developers because [57:48] that is the hardest platform I've ever [57:49] had to get [57:50] >> because it's so it's got so much tech [57:52] debt in the project that to do something [57:55] effectively is a massive challenge and [57:58] you know in Symphfony and Laravel you [58:00] don't have that massive challenge [58:02] because it's a sort of modern [58:03] architected thing that's got maturity of [58:06] 15 15 years or so. H [58:10] >> it's quite amazing to think that on top [58:13] of all that you've now got the next [58:15] layer coming in of AI innovations. So [58:17] you've got the Foundation have released [58:19] their their SDK for the MCPS. You've got [58:23] Laravel Boost. You've got the other one [58:26] whose name escapes me um Lara something. [58:31] >> I've got the co-pilot one. [58:32] >> That's it. Lara co-pilot. [58:33] >> Yeah. you've you've got innovation of AI [58:37] support, but not only that, you're [58:40] beginning to see innovation in using PHP [58:44] to do machine learning. [58:46] >> Yeah, it it's and also and also to to to [58:49] kind of to follow on from the theme of [58:51] um this is this is this is great because [58:53] you you you finally somehow managed to [58:56] get me to to talk seriously about what I [58:58] do. Um I say what I do what we do [59:00] actually but um following on from the [59:04] theme of this of the worlds of symphony [59:06] and Laravel contributing and effectively [59:09] coming coming together in in in a common [59:12] goal. Um you mentioned you know the [59:15] Larara Copilot which comes from Vishel [59:17] which is Victor technologies VTO [59:20] technologies I can't remember they run [59:21] Laravel India and then you've got um [59:24] Laravel Boost [59:25] >> Mhm. That comes from Nuno, I think. [59:29] >> It's Nuno and um [59:33] and Oh, we've we've [59:35] >> Ashley [59:36] >> Ashley Hindley. That's it. I'm right. [59:38] >> Oh, yes. [59:40] >> We we've we've literally [59:43] >> we've we've just recorded an episode [59:45] with him which will possibly come out [59:47] before this one or No, it will come out [59:49] before this one. Um I'm not sorry. Brain [59:52] just went dead then. That's that's [59:54] you've got like like I said this the [59:56] sort of the separation of the world [59:58] that's the innovation from the Laravel [59:59] world [60:00] >> and the MCP the official PHP Foundation [60:04] MCP server comes from Symphony World [60:07] that's people I I don't I don't know I'm [60:10] going to assume it's people like sort of [60:12] Nicholas Greas and people like that that [60:13] have worked it'll be it'll be sort of [60:15] them under Sensia Labs but that comes [60:17] from that that comes from them and so [60:20] you know if you think about it that if [60:22] you've got a Laravel app which you then [60:27] are using Laravel boost for your [60:30] internal AI development of the actual [60:32] application itself [60:35] and then the runtime environment then [60:38] includes in includes uh Franken PHP to [60:41] run it on and also that app needs kind [60:45] of you know needs needs to needs an MCP [60:48] server for for something else's [60:49] interface which comes from the official [60:50] PHP one they've got you've got two parts [60:52] Clarabel, you've got two parts symphony [60:54] and it comes together [60:56] >> and you've got you've just you've got [60:59] some innovation and some in a [61:02] development stack that I just can't [61:05] really you know the only other fanboy [61:08] thing I really do is is Golang and I'm [61:10] still not that experienced in Golang. I [61:13] know a bit um which I'm a big fan of the [61:15] language. It's got its own strange [61:16] intricacies, but then you know we're PHP [61:19] developers. So, you know, if we want to [61:21] talk about [61:24] crazy double colon um interpreted wrong [61:27] and a constant, that's a Israeli word [61:30] something whatever it's called. What's [61:31] it? What's it? I can't remember what [61:32] it's called. Um do you know the thing I [61:35] mean? [61:37] >> No. No. [61:39] I'm glad Chris said that [61:42] >> the the Hebrew constant. [61:46] >> Oh, you young people. Right, I've got to [61:48] go and find it now. Um [61:50] >> Jim, you say young people, I am older [61:52] than you. [61:53] >> And I'm pretty sure I'm older than you [61:55] as well. [61:57] Although although in in development [62:00] career I am younger than you. So I've [62:02] I've only been in this world for about [62:03] five years. So, [62:05] >> I mean, if we want to argue development [62:07] careers, I started developing before PHP [62:09] existed. So, [62:10] >> we we know you remind us quite often. [62:13] >> I know. I I just like reminding Jim as [62:15] well. [62:16] >> Where's the Where's the Where's the [62:18] Where's the chat? Where I feel Well, in [62:20] a way, I'm not going to I'm not going to [62:22] I'm not going to big you up for that. [62:23] I'm basically going to say I feel sorry [62:24] for you because because the languages [62:26] back there must have been terrible. [62:27] Where's the Where's the I can't post in [62:29] the chat. [62:30] >> Private chat. [62:31] >> I'll have to put it in the private chat. [62:33] Here you go. You don't know about that, [62:35] >> right? No, I have no idea what the heck [62:37] that is. [62:39] >> Put that up. Type it into the You can [62:40] try and pronounce it for anyone [62:42] listening on [62:46] this is an infamous bit like PHP joke. [62:49] >> Yeah, you're you're asking the dyslexic [62:51] guy to read something that's not going [62:53] to work. [62:54] >> I think it's trans I think it's a sort [62:57] of a sort of ang um not anglicized. [63:00] What's the what's the word? a [63:03] a Latin version of effectively Hebrew [63:06] script which was created I'm guessing [63:09] from Zen because I think Zen were based [63:11] in Tel Aviv and like [63:15] it basically is a it's a compiler it's [63:17] it's it's a run not compiler it's a [63:19] runtime error and it's if there is um [63:24] it's an unexpected colon but what that [63:27] word is is to do with what a colon is [63:31] describing in in in Hebrew, but but [63:35] latinized. So if you make an error, it [63:38] comes back with that constant. And yeah, [63:40] it's it's ridiculous. You you'll never [63:43] ever see that. You'll never see that [63:45] error message. You'll never you I don't [63:47] think you'll ever see it in your [63:48] lifetimes. But the fact that it's still [63:49] there is the funny joke. It's almost [63:51] like an ink joke. [63:52] >> See, I am now going to have to find out [63:55] if I can make it happen. [64:00] >> That shouldn't be too difficult. Um, if [64:01] I I've typed it in and the first thing [64:03] comes up is one of Phil Sturgeon's blogs [64:05] on it. Um, it's probably not surprising [64:08] that that Phil is the one basically [64:10] laughing and it's quite a long time ago. [64:11] And um, yeah, he details in there how to [64:14] make it happen if you if you want to see [64:16] it happen. [64:17] >> I want to see it happen because I did [64:19] not know this existed and I thought I'd [64:22] made every error possible in PHP by this [64:24] point. [64:24] >> I've got a new one for you. [64:30] So, we've we've now covered constants [64:32] that are in a different language. [64:35] Where are we going next? [64:38] >> Well, where do you where do you where do [64:40] you where do you want to go? I'm not [64:41] going to I'm not going to treat this [64:42] like the podcast I used to do because me [64:44] and my podcast pal was Mike Elmore and a [64:47] whole [64:48] >> we b we basically de like try to derail [64:51] it as much as possible on purpose and it [64:53] we [64:55] >> some there are some there are some [64:56] episodes that are virtually not not tech [64:59] at all. Yes, [65:01] >> there was one where we got on to uh uh [65:04] you can't buy tomatoes in supermarkets [65:06] and we were talking about um uh mini [65:10] mini cherubs with little little willies [65:12] on churches. It it it got [65:17] >> well um I'm thinking on that note it's [65:21] probably time to start thinking about [65:23] signing off. We have we have gone over [65:25] the hour mark that we try and stick to. [65:27] Um, so Jim, thank you very much for [65:30] joining us. [65:31] >> It's uh we we'll have to have you back [65:33] on just for just for laughs. [65:36] Just for the laugh, [65:38] >> keep keeping us entertained. So I hope [65:40] everyone else out there that's watching [65:42] or listening are entertained by this [65:44] conversation as well. I'm probably going [65:46] to have to rewatch it now because I [65:48] can't work out what we've been talking [65:50] about anymore. So [65:51] >> I've got to write show notes on this in [65:53] a bit. [65:54] >> This this t this this this tends to [65:56] happen. I don't I mean I've got I've got [65:58] to say in terms of like making myself [66:01] look like a um making myself like a a [66:05] reliable podcast guest to have on in [66:07] your general podcast whether it be [66:10] Magenta or Symphony or something like [66:12] I'm not really doing myself any favors, [66:14] am I? You know, by just derailing stuff [66:16] as much as possible, but everyone else [66:18] everyone else is really sort of serious [66:20] about their stuff, so I might as well [66:21] come in and just sort of ruin it for [66:24] everyone. But I think also it's it's [66:28] shows different personalities within the [66:30] community. Um so yeah or or you just do [66:34] the job long enough you end up like Jim. [66:37] >> Yeah. [66:38] >> Become a sort of walking walking like [66:41] cynicism machine. That's not a Yeah. No, [66:44] that's that's not an accurate way to do [66:46] it. [66:47] >> I think that's the next podcast episode. [66:50] How do you become as cynical as Jim? [66:53] >> That cynical. Hey man, you know, if you [66:56] got me on if you got me on about two [66:57] years ago talking about blockchain, it [66:59] would have been a it would have been a [67:00] sort of disaster, but but AI is one of [67:02] those ones where like, well, no, I can't [67:04] just say AI is rubbish anymore because [67:06] it's kind of not and it you you've got a [67:09] face that is going to change everything. [67:10] So, you know, I spoke positively about [67:13] it. I didn't get on to, you know, uh, AI [67:16] slop and weird weird political figures [67:20] creating AI images that look [67:23] >> obviously weird and fake and you're [67:25] like, "Right, well, that's the not good [67:27] side of things." [67:28] >> Yeah. Okay. So, before we go down that [67:31] rabbit hole, [67:33] >> no, I think we'll uh we'll say leave it [67:36] there for for today for this show. So, [67:38] thank you very much, Jim, for spending [67:40] some time with us. Um, just remember [67:42] that you can head over to our Discord uh [67:45] server and uh jump in, have a chat. Um, [67:48] there there are loads of people in [67:50] there, developers like us, and then [67:53] you've got PHP royalty in there that [67:56] built packages that you probably use [67:59] every single day if you're a [68:01] professional PHP developer. [68:03] >> We even have core developers [68:06] >> the language. Yeah, we have core [68:07] developers in there um that will answer [68:10] questions if you need it or just general [68:12] chat. We just just sit back and chill. [68:15] Um also don't forget to go head over to [68:17] YouTube if you're not already on [68:18] YouTube. Subscribe to the channel. Uh [68:21] like the video um will be great. Um and [68:25] don't forget magazine discount. If [68:27] you're listening to this, you do get a [68:29] discount. a live all capital three will [68:32] give you three months of the digital [68:34] subscription for free when you sign up [68:36] for a year's uh subscription. And if you [68:39] can, I would like to we'd love to see [68:42] you over at Tech Tech next year um or [68:45] this year depending on when we actually [68:47] release this episode. I'm sure it'll be [68:49] 25. So 26 is tickets are on sale and [68:54] also our swag. We've got our t-shirts [68:56] and things like that that we looked at [68:58] earlier that the uh link is not broken. [69:00] It does work as we have proven earlier. [69:04] So, thank you very much once again, Jim. [69:07] Thank you very much for everyone [69:08] watching or listening and we'll catch [69:10] you at the next one. See you. Bye.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok) --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNZ0AuxGok)* **[00:01]** [music] Hello and welcome to PHP alive and kicking brought to you by PHP architect and made better by our partners at PHP score. More about them later. This podcast explores the developments in PHP and what it's like to earn a living in PHP today. I'm one of your hosts, Mike **[00:33]** Pageige, better known as Mike Page Dev. And my co-host that way pointed the wrong way is uh a longtime contributor to our magazine and now a team member, Chris Miller. >> Not too bad. Thank you. Uh today's episode is pre-recorded, but all you can always jump into our Discord channel and uh partake in the conversation. If you're watching while this goes live on YouTube or any of our other platforms, you will find me and Chris in the chat **[01:05]** if you have any questions. That is uh and then Discord is discord. Pitchparch.com. Uh we have a lovely uh discount code for our magazine for our listeners. Uh a live three will give you three months of the digital subscription free when you subscribe to a year. I think that's all the points I had to get on that one and in and right in this time. Uh we also run a conference every **[01:36]** year. PHP Tech tickets are for on sale for next year. We will be heading back over to Chicago to run that 3-day event. Lots of fun. Love to see as many of you there as possible. And don't forget to head over to our website to check out our swag. We have t-shirts, hats, bottles, all sorts of things over there. Uh do go along and check them out. So Chris, who have we got joining us today? So today we have a good friend of mine **[02:09]** and senior developer advocate at Vonnage. Jim Sakund. Hey Jim. >> Hello everybody. Um I did I was about to my my opening gambit was going to say was going to be to tell Mike that you that can you buy elephants on the merch store. Now I don't want to cause too much trouble but the merch store is 403 so that needs to >> is it? Yeah, [snorts] >> it's not >> I blame Eric. >> It's not a VPN. So, yeah. **[02:41]** >> That's such a That's such a terrible opening can be. Your store's broken. >> Um I will It's not broken. It's something your end. >> Isn't it? Okay. >> There you go. There you go. Just to prove it everyone >> before we get accused of anything. Look, the store is working. There we go. >> I know exactly what it is, which is I am on MY WORK MACHINE. >> [laughter] >> DOESN'T TRUST YOU. IT DOESN'T IT DOESN'T trust architect merch merchandise. Are elephants on there? **[03:12]** >> There there is an elephant linked somewhere. Unfortunately, it's out of stock. >> It's not on the website anymore. >> At the time of recording, we're out of stock. >> I remember I remember about a year and a half, two years ago, you had leftover Laravel elephants and someone announced it on Twitter or something and it just everyone was like, I'm going to go and buy one. I'm going to go and buy one. >> Yeah, I managed to grab one at tech uh 24 before we uh put them up for sale. So, I've I do have I have I have four. **[03:43]** You can see you can kind of gauge how long someone's been in PHP by how many elephants I have, I think. [laughter] >> Yeah, I'm I'm not in my normal office, but in my normal office, um yeah, there's probably about 50. And I've got two oversized ones as well. I've got the sillious one. Um, and I've got the I've got the Franken PHP one as well. So, which is which was released two weeks ago. So, yeah, >> lots of elephants. My favorite Well, everyone has a favorite one. My favorite one >> is um the uh PHP True North um one which **[04:19]** is a woolly mammoth and that was created by um True North which was Chris Hardes in in Canada the testing guy. That guy. >> Yeah. Um yeah, that that Woolly Mammoth PHP um uh toy is just the best. It's it's it's I love it. >> See, this one is my favorite one, Jim. Can you remember why? >> Uh did I give you that? >> You did. You actually gave me my first elephant, and it is one of the early Laravel ones. >> That is the first That is the first **[04:50]** Laravel. My first one was the was the I think my first one was the symphony, the symphony one. Not symphony one, but the first symphony one. And then I've got the um then I've got the 15 Years Gray Symphony one as well. Um so >> I'm not going to go into the amount of collectibles of these things I've got. >> That's my most recent one. >> You see that that that one for the for the listeners. That's he's holding up the PHP stand one. Um is that the new I thought it had a hat on. >> No. >> Oh. >> Or if it if it does this one doesn't. **[05:22]** [laughter] >> I think it had a Christmas hat on or something. Is that like is it a second? Anyway, yes, I I'm I'm I'm need I don't have a PHP stand one, so I do need a PHP stand one. You can derail pretty much any PHP podcast or discussion with elephants. >> Elephants. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I think at some point we actually need to get the guy that creates the elephants on. >> I think that would be a good episode. >> Yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah, we'll uh make note of that one. Yeah, I've had occasional like I had about two **[05:56]** vague um Twitter conversations with him with like one what sort of you know like quick quick exchanges but I don't know anything I don't know anything about it but I know that Damian Sagai is the is the other is the other one and he's he if there's a new elephant and he knows that I'm there you know I suddenly get a DM on on on LinkedIn >> because like I think I presume he has the largest collection in the world probably I wouldn't be surprised. >> Yeah. >> So, we we normally start the podcast **[06:28]** with this question, but we seem to have gone way beyond that. So, let's ask the question. >> Yeah, pretty much. So, how did you get into PHP? >> The B the kind of the um the boring too long too long didn't read of this is is brilliant because it really is um I had to pick something, didn't I? >> [laughter] >> It's a bit like there's I think there's **[06:58]** in in the in the the UK there's um [laughter and gasps] there's a there's a bit of Alan Partridge where it's something like it's a question like that like um you know and what do you do for this I do and I can't I can't remember what the characters are or something or anything about it but they say like they say something unusual person asking is like really that's a bit why do you do Yeah. Oh, it's an hour, isn't it? [snorts] Just something [laughter] I I got I got into I did um when I **[07:31]** arrived in London um attempting to start a theater career, which I sort of I sort of did actually. Um I did it at the same time for about 10 years, which um burned me out magnificently. Um doing two jobs for 10 years. I had no days off. No days off for 10 years. Um, I had one holiday for a week and I went to Portugal to see my brother. Um, and I got I went to a temp agency. Do they even do they even exist anymore? I don't know. I went to the Deco because **[08:03]** I'd used them before, I think. And they do the usual thing where to make sure that you're not an idiot, they send you to do something horrendous for two days and then they send you to something horrendous one more time just to see if um you can communicate and you can turn up to the place of work and leave at the right time. That's basically it. [laughter] The first one was the first job the first job was a day of photocopying. So uh I photocopied all all day. That's all I did. I can't **[08:34]** even remember the name of the company. And the second one was off off the Houston road in London. There was this sort of charity conference space and I was like the barista for two days except when they had conferences in there were like 30 people that were in the charity sector and they hardly no one ever came downstairs and if they did they came to get a couple of biscuits. So, I basically stood in this coffee area in a basement for like two days. And on the **[09:06]** second day, this woman said, "Um, we looked at your CV. You do you you've got a past with computers." And I said, "Well, yeah, I sort of do. Can you help me with some Excel spreadsheet?" And it was like something out of the um it was like something out of the IT crowd. She took me to her office and it was on the ground level and it was right next to where the tubes were coming under Houston station. And so every sort of [laughter] every sort of three minutes while she was sitting on the computer [groaning] [laughter] **[09:36]** like this is this is this is hell. This is what and this she was like in her mid-40s. I'm like is this your life like doing Excel spreadsheets in this weird dungeon? [laughter] And once you've done that then they then they pull out more serious things. And that's when they pulled out um a job out of a hat for young people. I I'm I'm scared for younger generations because they because the these opportunities don't exist anymore. They basically said, "He's a computer geek. We don't have many computer geeks on the on the **[10:08]** kind of on the on the on our books. Go and do an Oracle QA job." And so I was like, "All right." So I walked in and this and this this project manager was like, "Do you know what this means?" like, "Oh, well, I'd never know I had seen database query language with an an old IBM um PS2 system, actually." And I was like, "Uh, that's query language. It sort of does this." And they're like, "Okay, right. This guy will do." Um, [laughter] so loads and loads of and and and the the experience of that is was **[10:38]** was crazy because it was the um it was the offshore um it was the the offshore to cheap territories kind of um phase where it was being developed by this this this this thing has been long enough that I could mention it but I'm not going I'm not what it is. I'm not going to mention it but it doesn't really matter. um was being developed in in Bangalore which was becoming like a massive tech hub and the communication was just all over the place. None of the developers knew what we wanted or why. So it was like this massive learning **[11:08]** curve of learning Oracle and learning the differences between Oracle and then and then and then I I started writing databases for actual county court judgment data in Microsoft Access with VBA. Remember VBA? [laughter] That was awful. Um and so I was looking at the differences between all these languages and I got into business. They they they started pushing me towards business intelligence and then I started getting sort of limited by the the kind of oper systems and IT manager **[11:41]** which was which was he was a bit old school. It was round about the time that AWS had really started. People were starting to notice things like virtualization >> and um I wanted I said well I just thought well what do I want to do in my life? Well now I want to become a full stack developer. How do you do that? I asked them for training and they said yeah sure we'll pay for training. Where do you want to go? And I'm like I don't know. and I found meter um at that point and I started I basically typed in like **[12:12]** what's the most used stuff and obviously there you go PHP was top so I was like well I guess I learned that because everyone else is and they sent me to um there was a I think it still exists actually there's a there's an agency in London it's not really got the clout that it used to have at one point it had pretty much one of the most experienced teams that I've ever seen I mean now I'd probably say someone like something like Rove Rove group has probably got that those kind of people but uh it's called Inva and they did symphony training. So **[12:42]** I trained symphony 2 and um got used to the meetup space. So once once I you know once I'd got those things that I got my first job as a full stack symphony developer at a startup and um and that was it and then I was a PHP dev. Um, I think those opportunities >> and my personality and my ability to make noise and the fact that if we're going to be honest, I've I'm in a privileged position basically being an English posh white man. That's, you know, not skirt around the fact. Um, I **[13:13]** went to Harry Potter school from age of seven. I was bor I was a full border from seven years old, right? >> So, by all means, I should probably be in the cabinet of the UK government. Um, but I chose not to mix with those people. Um, so it's been sort of handed to me and and and that and the PHP space is was so welcoming and and and and I started I I didn't realize you could just go up to the speakers that were on stage. PHP London was at Sainsbury's headquarters at that point. Um, when I first started **[13:44]** going it was in a pub called the something and something. Um, it was it was I can't remember what it was called the dog and and something. Um and it and and I did a couple of sessions there and then then there's the Sainsbur headquarters and you could just get free training. You just you signed in, you got given I mean obviously they had a selection of soft drinks but you just get given like beers and food and then you go and watch people that are at the top of their craft talk for free and then you go and ask them questions **[14:16]** afterwards. It was I was like why isn't everyone doing this? This is insane. Um, so that's kind of the that's the the the origin story, the the evil baddy origin story. Um, I might have to, as per usual, of course, you might have heard. I might have to let my cat in. [laughter] >> This sounds like a good plan. >> I think I think I think my my uh I think I think my wife has confiscated him. Um, yeah, you can hear straight away. He wants to come on the podcast. >> [laughter] **[14:46]** >> So, this was all in London, but I know you no longer live in London and ended up in Birmingham and now you do this thing called defro or dev advocacy in your case. How the heck did that happen? Um well the move was I I ironically I never I I basically went through a very very difficult period of my life but but one of the one of the anchor factors and the big problem was I didn't want I I was never going to leave London. Um I'm **[15:16]** I'm half Brummy half cocky effectively and um >> that's an interesting accent to to try and concoct. don't have one. You want to um so you know so uh I love to I used to do people used to ask me to do it in the pub. I'm like oh right most people are rubbish at Brummy accents but obviously you know kind of from there so I can do it. Um [laughter] actually I live in the black country now. We want to hear something really mad that's [laughter] that's even that's **[15:46]** even stronger. Um there's um I mean it really really it really boil boils down to buying a house. That's that was it. It was I was never going to leave London. >> My girlfriend at the time my wife now um we we started looking at prop flats to buy. They're all leaseold. Um so you don't own your property. You have a you have you own you own your property for for for 50 for **[16:18]** 55 years and then you have to pay it all over again and then there's service charge and then there's ground rent and the places we were looking at were like the edge of bow in East London and there were kids that were maybe armed uh and it's and they're like yeah and the agent looks you square in the face and like obviously this is too bad service is £400,000 and you're like it's time to get out of here. Um so my um uh my my parents had um ret retired and moved out of Birmingham and **[16:50]** my wife's parents had moved that moved to Suffukk. So because of that we were sort of tied where we couldn't go that far north really otherwise otherwise I pro it probably would have been leadeds I imagine. I wanted Bristol but Bristol's just as expensive as uh shout out to PHP Southwest by the way the one of the best user groups in the UK. um David Edman will give me a get me a get me a pint for that. Um and so it was it was Birmingham and then when I arrived in Birmingham **[17:23]** the PHP user group um which was PHPWM was one of the honestly cat on then [laughter] there you go. It's all right. Yeah, I'll let him in. Um, he'll feature. Maybe you can do a maybe you can do a a screenshot of when he comes up and annoys me. He rubs his face all over mine and he smells. [laughter] **[17:54]** Um, just just stop meowing. Just come on. Come on then. So, um, PHPWM I didn't realize was one of the oldest, um, PHP user groups in, uh, in, well, in Europe, really. Um, and I think here's my here's my bomb drop for the day in the world of developer relations. It means it's a name that means something, but I guess to my audience, they they might not know, but I think it was started or at least ran **[18:26]** for a bit by a guy called John O. Bacon and he sort of created the opensource community playbook if you like. Um and he started off in the PHP space. Quite a lot of people involved in in the field of developer relations started off from from PHP and most of the like quite a bit from a little bit from WordPress but quite quite a few from Drupal actually. Um, so what happens when you go to a city and the **[18:57]** user group is dormant and no one's doing anything about it? Congratulations, you're now the organizer. So I became an organizer >> and then I started a blog up which was I don't want to ever see again because I was a junior developer and it probably is hopeless and I don't want to read anything I wrote around that time. So, I started a blog up and then I tried to make a point of I don't have anything to say, so I'm not going to get on stage to speak at my own user group because it feels a bit weird and a bit sort of self-indulgent. But eventually I wrote a talk and I didn't do it at the user **[19:28]** group which I renamed to Brum PHP. Um, and so I didn't pitch it. I didn't speak on stage at my own thing. Um, instead I sort of took it around and I started speaking. So really the conclusion to all of this was I was speaking on stage for free. I was writing for free. I was networking and was already connected via the London networks and the PHP scene because that was all provided to me for free. And then one day someone says, "Do **[19:59]** you realize what you're actually doing is basically a field called developer relations?" I was like, "Oh, okay. I've never heard of that." Because it because it was that's what that was what he was doing. Um so uh that's when my career change happened from just being a fullstack developer um to moving into into developer relations which is I'm not going to go into too much of it because it's quite a niche field and when I'm talking day-to-day with at the end of the day what my my the people who the people I'm talking to and the the conversations I'm **[20:29]** having with are engineers right and so I I it used to be in the field of developer relations that you you try to be important by saying oh I do I I I'm a I'm a Devril engineer. I do Devril. I don't do that because I don't want them to be put off by, oh, you're one of those stage people, aren't you? Because really, the end of the day, I'm I'm just a fullstack dev. And well, I say fullstack dev. I'm a fullstack dev that's appalling at JavaScript and CSS. So, you know, it it's it's being honest **[20:59]** with people and saying really what I do is I, you know, write a lot of I started off writing a lot of symphony and now I write a lot of Laravel. So, I'm no different from any of the other attendees at this conference. >> And that's kind of the the that's really how to fall into the job. I think it's very very niche and a lot of boot campers and young people are like, how can I go into this path? I I sort of wouldn't recommend it. I think you have to fall into it or it's got to be pre-planned well in advance because it's **[21:30]** an extremely competitive and difficult field. >> It's it's an interesting concept as well of people becoming developer relations before they've been a developer. >> Yeah. which is which is happening quite a lot and um there's there's also a lot of people that are um that have been doing it for quite some time and at a time when Devril was put on a pedestal as the ultimate be all and end all and we've se I've seen it with blockchain and I've seen it now with AI we can get on to AI stuff later because there's something really applicable to what what **[22:01]** we do with that but the you need to hire Devril and then you know I used to do interview interviewing way before I started Vonnage there and I go through their sort of their product and their business use case. I'm like, you just need good engineering culture. You don't need DER at all. Um, and so it's very it's it's often misrepresented. Um, junior developers think it's very kind of um uh what's the uh not extravagant, but um you know, it's very a glitzy kind **[22:32]** of world of I get to travel around the world and do stuff. Yeah. Yes, you do get to do that. But it is uh extremely a delicate thing where burnout's really really high. Um because when I do a conference, a conference ends at 5:00 in in the afternoon. The conference doesn't end at 5:00 in the afternoon for me. The conference ends at 2 o'clock in the morning after I've been talking to various people about tech all night. You know, it's that's it's that kind of and **[23:03]** then you're up at 7 o'clock in the morning to start it all over again. So, [snorts] I think people are saying it's very very glam, like thinking it's really really glamorous. You've you've got to be built for this kind of thing. >> It's it's interesting. I've spoken to people who have said that they they see it almost like the rockstar attitude of go on stage for an hour, talk for a bit, hype some people up, and then sit down. If only it was that easy. >> I mean, I I would love it if it was just that. That would be that would be brilliant, wouldn't it? just be getting a great paycheck for sort of going everyone adors me and then I get to go **[23:35]** off stage and do nothing. >> Behind the scenes there is, you know, there's there's API design, there's helping sales and marketing with targeted pitches. There's the actual strategy of where you are with developers of different languages. Um, there's how you target your writing and and and what's going to have success rates. the metrics that come in are reported upstairs. If your metrics are bad, you know, you're taken into a meeting room of why why aren't your metrics good. This is, you know, it's **[24:06]** not it's not a fairy tale world. It's it's hard, you know. I mean, it's it's okay for me to say this because I'm because I'm I'm built for it, you know. My my my um uh my my degree is in English literature and theater. The major part of it is in is specifically in acting. I trained as an actor. dissertation is in standup comedy that I did, you know, so it all merges into really everything I I do. But, you know, there's really difficult questions for sort of people that are that that are **[24:38]** getting into sort of getting experience in the field of actually speaking without being in Devril. And they're like, how do you deal with the nerves? And I'm like, and I just think I I can't it's really difficult. I can't help you because I'm an actor, so I I don't get I don't get the nerves. I get I get adrenaline. That's different. That's like I'm ready to go. So, it's um yeah, it's a bit of a um I'm a bit of a odd character though. [snorts] >> Well, on that note, I think it's time to hear from our our partners. So, we'll be **[25:10]** right back. >> Thank you to our partners at phpscore.com. Every app builds up technical debt over time. It's the price we pay for shipping new features and moving fast. When we build up too much of it though, it can start to impact how we work. Team velocity suffers. Bugs become more frequent and take longer to fix and everyone starts to get a little frustrated. The key to managing debt is to measure it. A credit [music] score can help you understand how well you're managing your financial debt. And now **[25:42]** there's a credit score for your technical debt. Go to phpscore.com [music] to get a free technical debt score and monitoring for all of your PHP applications today. Thank you score. >> I think that was the first time we've ever got that on time. >> I mean Jim [laughter] didn't thank PHP score. >> Well, we we we don't make it obligatory for our guests. It's all right. You're fine. Don't worry. He's just winding. >> Thank you PHP score for all of your cool stuff that you do with with PHP **[26:14]** profiling. >> Thank you. [laughter] >> Thank you. >> See, you're you're even a devro for companies you don't know yet. [laughter] So, >> I'm going to move on to the subject that I did on the podcast last week that I'm sure it will come up. [laughter] >> Is this the four-day drinking session or is this the >> what? >> Oh, yes. Yes. >> See, we've had a conversation with a friend of yours recently who told us that you forced them into a 4-day **[26:44]** drinking session. Jeter [laughter] lies a total party animal. I tell you what we saw. I tell you what we saw. Talking talking of the sitting down like in a restaurant having some drinks with Gina. I tell you what we saw at API platform conference and I've never seen anything like it. It was the weirdest thing and we didn't really know and everyone on the table didn't know what to do. We **[27:14]** went to this quite cool sort of Americanstyle smokehouse bar in Leo. Um, and obviously there was quite a lot of us uh on the final night and the the um the waiter was completely overwhelmed with the there was only one there's only one waiter there and apparently there was some previous with the barman and um we're in this sort of mezzanine floor **[27:44]** and the barman was shouting up to to the waiter and the waiter said something back. I can't remember was because it was it was it was in French but I do but I did actually well I detected the swear words [laughter] and and then and then what happened have you ever been in a restaurant where there I say restaurant casual dining >> the barman came upstairs the waiter nutted the barman in the face [laughter] and then they had a fullon fight like an **[28:15]** assault and we were like uh what [laughter] am I all these PHP developers just sitting around a table having beers and were like, "Uh, should we call the police?" [laughter] It was Gina got up and stepped in and and the owner the owner sort of like the owner got in the car and came around straight away after all this happened and basically calmed the whole situation down pretty much singlehanded. [laughter] It was just nuts. Um, I I guess this is what this is what happens when you **[28:46]** you're involved in conferences. just see stuff that I remember um talking to I can't remember who it was. Oh, it was it was one of the I think it was Marco Paveta I think the the doctoring guy and it was one of his first US conferences and he said and he was speaking to Matt Tras and he said like um it's my first time in the US with this type of thing. I want to do gun stuff and Matt Tras was like well sure you can do what do you mean? What kind of gun stuff? I don't know like gun stuff. So they just went **[29:17]** into went to a range and just got loads of guns and just shot guns which of course American culture is normal and to us it's like what [laughter] conference conferences are conferences are completely are completely do you want do you want me before you ask the next question do you want do you want the conference story that I was going to talk in the green room about because [laughter] >> yes let's go go back to so was it was this um tech 24 **[29:49]** >> this was this was at tech uh this was at tech 24 so >> led the the the standard charge as led by Ben Ramsey was the hot dog hats come on because it's the birthplace of firstcon and so I've got my hot dog hat this story isn't even about the origin of the hot dog hat that I had which is the UK British approved version of the hot dog hat because it was slightly different I'm not even going to getting to why that is. So, we all put our hot dog hats on. Um, for anyone listening, **[30:20]** you've got to find out the story behind Verscon Con and loads of PHP developers turning up into in a documentary about about about hot dogs. It's completely ridiculous. So, um, the hot dog hat comes on. We did we go to s we go to Superdog, I think it is, is the sort of the one they always want to go to. Um, Ben Ramsey stands up and does the story about Verse Con and and it's it's honestly it's like sort of watching your sort of your your dad who's your hero sort of speaking in the middle of **[30:50]** Superdog where there are other customers of course doesn't really matter. [laughter] We go back to this this the hotel near the airport and this really strange short man I'm quite short this short man who was dressed in a suit. He looked a bit like Danny DeVito and he was hanging around the bar area and he and he [laughter] came to me. I've got a real I've got a real difficulty now because um I have to repeat his words and of course he was **[31:21]** swearing. So this is really difficult. Um so I can't do a onetoone impression of him but he said he just he just walked up to me and went I really like your hat. Thanks. Why'd you get one for it? It's I'm not selling my hot dog hat. It's a, you know, I've got it because we all wear lots of I'm the only one who's kept it on and it's a running joke within the PHP. I don't I don't listen son. I don't care. I don't care what you got to say. I want that hat. And I sort of managed **[31:52]** to leave it a bit and then he came back again and I was like, "Oh." And then he goes, "Hey, I got a story for you. I'm going to put this down here. I'm going to take the hat and then you got a story for your friends back in England. It's a $100 bill." And I'm just like, If it takes this to just get rid of you, I'm going to have to take it. So I So off the off this Danny DeVito lookalike in a hotel in Chicago, I took a $100 for the soding hot dog hat. [laughter] I've still got it. I've got the $100 bill of bill framed. Um again, you know, **[32:26]** this is just what happens at, you know, conferences. Strange things happen. Um but for anyone that's kind of This doesn't always happen, by the way. can just if you're quite sort of introverted, you don't have to get involved in all these bonkers things. But this was happening at the same time as uh I'm not going to remember her name. Um and I I'm going to be really upset with myself for not remembering her name. She's from she's from Wisconsin. And so because she's from Wisconsin naturally, she's brought three crates of Wisconsin craft beer that blow **[32:56]** your head off and we're all sampling that at the same time. So it was just it was all it was all over the place. But remember, whilst these things are happening, you've got the conference organizers that are there. So it's not officially under the code of conduct, but it sort of is. You know, you have to know what you're doing. You know, you can't overstep the mark. If you do, well, you're out. >> And yeah, I've I've I've started running meetups, codes of conduct seemed like some sort of strange overkill and I didn't really I thought I was like, do we do these things really **[33:27]** need this? Well, apparently everyone tells and I've had to enforce them and and I'm surprised actually at like how many people you get that break them, >> right? >> I'll let you speak now. [laughter] >> Well, normally when when you're doing your your worst con is it whatever you >> Verscon. That's it. Versourage new PHP developers to get involved with it because it's slowly kind of dying out and it's a fun tradition. So, >> it's pretty popular at tech if I remember rightly. Unfortunately, we don't we we don't get to join in at tech **[33:59]** because we're stripping everything down and packing [laughter] up. At that point, you've all gone out for your hot dogs and just left us with all these rooms to pack up and strip down and we're not allowed to eat until it's done. [laughter] Eric's there with his whip. >> Yeah. I mean I've been running a conference is a is a a very you know for >> insight and for listeners running a conference is an extremely difficult and very thankless task. It **[34:29]** requires an immense amount of work and a lot of the time a lot of the time you have to you have to you have to watch your emotions because you'll become you start to become slightly resentful and angry at times when this is when you're sort of like running a small te like a small team that doing conference because honestly when when the feedback comes in you'll just see stuff and you're like really I've just done this conference and the tickets are like sort of $200 And for what you get, you get to see the **[35:00]** leaders of an entire programming language that we've had to curate and put together and then we've had to include all the food and everything and you're really grumpy about gender genderneutral toilets. Is that really like is that what is that really what's what what what's bothering you? Um it's not great. And I've run meetups. I've run a couple of conferences and it's always the same. So you know um if >> listeners listeners can have can can you know I'm basically saying you know m make sure you thank your conference organizers because it's a hard job **[35:31]** >> and the other thing is as well feedback you naturally get the negative but rarely do you actually get good feedback of like you know what that was brilliant >> as a speaker if you've done an awesome talk you'll hear absolutely nothing if you've done something that wow actually brigade come on then you'll you'll know about it because they'll all mention it and so it's very and It's the same with the active conference organizing itself. It's very very difficult to only get negative feedback when usually it's the sort of uh it's the silent majority that are actually should be um sort of **[36:03]** carrying the the opinion of the event. Um but that's always that's always the way across across things really which is that um that uh when it comes into developer relations the obviously the most valuable thing that we have you know advantage specifically at my team is feedback from customers getting is hard. They're just if they've got something ticking along and they're and they're sending two two, you know, two million um two million text messages or they've got two factor authentication using our verify API and they've got an **[36:35]** integration that hasn't changed with the PHP SDK for three years. They're not going they're not going to write to you and say, "Do you know what? Fantastic job. It's running as usual." So, they won't say anything. And if you ask them, they'll be like, "Oh, yeah. We'll get round to it." And then you never it's it the feedback loop is >> difficult. Reminds me of that meme that you see. It's specifically targeted at it, but everything's going well. Why are we even employing you people? Everything's going badly. Why are we even employing you people? [laughter] **[37:06]** >> The memes I always identify with. There's that one. Um, then there's the thing that I've seen a lot of in the financial sector because I was adjacent to the financial sector for a bit as well, which is I can't remember what it is. It's not I don't think it's one of the regular tech um one of the regular tech cartoons. Um I think it's like it feels like something like Gary Lson or something like that, but I don't think it's as old as that. But it's it's where there's like nine managers around a hole **[37:37]** in the ground and they're all pointing at Dave who's doing the digging and they're like Dave's not doing a good enough job. I can't I'm not going to name them. There's there's there's one that was just so funny. There was like, you know, it was it was it was a mate of mine had like four managers and they were all fighting amongst themselves, but there's only one person to do the work. That that makes no sense whatsoever. >> Yes. Ma managers managers managers **[38:08]** >> this podcast we've mentioned nothing about the future of PHP and what's exciting. >> This is we're getting there. We're getting up. >> I'm I'm hoping that you know three quarters of this makes the cutting room floor until I actually talk about the reason why the podcast is here. >> I know at the moment we're not cutting anything out. This is all [laughter] >> this is this is genuinely brilliant. But this also shows you we're all human and and the sort of the different personalities and and things like that. We're trying to be one of the things **[38:39]** we're trying to do is attract new people to PHP. And one of the greatest things is talking about things like our um the conferences that within PHP and the the fun you can have or not have depend on I mean I'm very I have a lot of uh social anxieties. Um and I've talked about it a number of times on different shows and and different varieties. Um, one of the first things is the first PHP tech I went to, uh, sorry, PHP conference I **[39:10]** went to was tech. Um, luckily I I work worked for PHP architect. So I was flown out to Chicago to work. Uh, I do my background is actually in theater tech. Um, so I'm actually a lighting sound engineer in theater. Part of my story, it's part of my story I didn't say is that I didn't actually end up going on stage as an actor for 10 years when I worked in theater. I did that. I did what you I did lighting design, sound design. >> We need so I I still do it. I do it more **[39:41]** as a hobby now um that for a local local group um that my wife does a lot of acting with. So we I do their their shows. But um so I I I've get I've got flow flown out to work on that. and being what I thought was going to be like the only person from the UK um there and feeling very welcome until the last night when this really random drunk strange bloke walks up to me and says, "Oh, another British accent." And then just walks off before I could respond or even start a conversation **[40:12]** with him [laughter] >> and now doesn't remember. Now doesn't remember that. >> It's not clear to the listeners the person he's talking about is me. Um [laughter] of I don't know. I don't remember. >> So, are we establishing a pattern here that you are mainly drunk in the foyer or mainly talking to people? >> That's not that not true. >> It's in all [laughter] fairness, it's the last night, so the conference has officially finished. >> It makes [laughter] me sound like **[40:43]** like a sort of a nightmare alcoholic. Um, no it's it's it's a it's a party and and as you as as you say it's it with codes of conduct and with co the conference organizers of things like of things like symfony con and laron and the old ones that are still going like Dutch PHP conference PHP tech longonghorn PHP and um PHP UK they they're they're experienced conference organizers that know that you **[41:14]** have to you have to cater for a variety of people. You can be part of the party. You can not be part of the party if you don't want to be. You're not kind of >> I think I think the first night in tech and I think they did this probably did this probably this year because they always do. It's like they the first conference social is a very wellbalanced thing where it encou there's there's there's there's alcohol if you want it. >> That's obviously optional. There's obviously other options where you don't have them. The primary theme is board game is indie board gaming. That's kind **[41:46]** of perfect because sort of everyone what gets what they want. I mean I didn't get what I want which is I joined a poker table with Sarah Goldman and lost my mind so quickly [laughter] like >> super animated about the poker about the poker game. Um, and so yeah, any like you can you can get what you want. If you want to just, you know, if you're if you're especially especially like if you're part of a if you're part of company tickets, it's fine. But if you're um if you're on your own and **[42:18]** unfamiliar an unfamiliar territory and and some of this comes into some of this comes into the code of conduct and safeguarding, especially for you know non nonwhite male BS. um is if you if you're a if you're if you're a woman or you're you know or you're a woman of color on your own. Um I don't I'm trying to remember if that's the correct phrase you can say because that's come back into language but I it's it's it's an intimidating environment you know and and you never know what you're going to get. I I think with with with se looking **[42:50]** at the European sea symphony well actually rather than symphony a better one is devfest and is that what it's called? No it's not what it's called at all. It's devum and that's in Sweden. I did that this year and the split was or it was in Sweden, right? And Sweden is a very very sort of like a sort of a cultural equality. It's famous for equality. That was almost a 50-50 split. I've never seen that. I've never really seen that at a conference. And that was that included. They were like, you know, there was there were **[43:21]** South Asian people, they were black people, and they could be American, they could be European, uh they could be, you know, they could have come over from India or Pakistan or stuff like it was just nothing really sort of mattered. So, um whereas some conferences you don't you just don't get that split and sometimes it's very very difficult, but you have to try to make it make it that way. That's why we have these codes of conduct. It's very very intimidating. And what I'd like to try and convey is that every single conference that I've ever been to. I mean, I'm I'm supposed **[43:53]** to be a lead I don't know, a leader or whatever it is in the PHP scene. And bearing in mind, I still regard myself as uh kind of a sort of a young whippers snapper considering the experience some of the other people have got there. is it it's sort of everyone's job in a way to like if the circle if the semicircle is closed off then you move and then you go oh what do you do I've personally in PHP I can't speak for other languages seen a lot of that happening >> um and I I can speak for the I can speak **[44:24]** for the community from the Laravel perspective that the Larabel's scheme has been has looked from what I can see pretty sort of you know successful and I mentor on it as Well, um that that's kind of the next it that's really the sort of modern iteration of the original PHP women, but I don't re that was before my time. [snorts] >> Yeah, I will I will correct one slight thing you did say because you say uh conference um organizers have to c cater for lots **[44:55]** of different people. I feel that especially with tech and yes I'm biased but with tech we want to we want to cater for everyone that's come. So, it's >> it's welcoming for anyone. Um, this is one of the things that we've really strived to do. Uh, and for my first time going over, even though I was a member of the team, I did feel very welcome. Um, I I'm very much the sort of person that I won't come and talk to you if I don't know who you are, but if you come and say hi to me, we'll talk for hours. **[45:26]** I have to have that icebreaker from the other person. I can't do I can't do the icebreaker. I've always struggled with that. Um so and I felt I found that very easy when I went to tech there was the number of people just talk to you just sort of end up sitting at the same table like in the evening. So, so um we will have um although it's officially only one night we do the ball games, it's actually both on the the first and second day, we'll people will be in the main room playing and I'm I'm normally sitting with a chess set. So, people **[45:56]** come and play me play a game of chess with me. Um or there'll be all sorts of games going on. I can't I'm trying to remember. I end up playing something with some something with Derek for quite a long time. One evening, which I probably shouldn't have done because I was actually really ill with a cold this year. I was and and I had had to experience the the US medical system because I had an accident on the first day there. >> Oh, >> yeah. I dropped a I dropped a speaker. I was I was um I was lifting I was putting **[46:27]** the speakers up, lifting the pole up, wasn't quite concentrating. Let go. didn't get my finger out of the way quick enough and squashed my finger at the top top of the the the pole and underneath the the speaker. That was fun. And we couldn't get it to stop bleeding. So, I had to go to the the uh one of the emergency rooms that I got taken down to. And then I came down with this cold. So, I'm trying to deal with the pain of my finger [laughter] and the cold. So, it wasn't the most fun week for me this year, unfortunately. >> A bit of war story that isn't it really? >> Yeah, I know. Um, but I'll tell you **[46:58]** what, one one of the good things that came out of it is that I flew however many miles away it is to meet Chris for the first time. >> Yes. [laughter] >> I mean, you know, you you you see that as a bonus and I see that as a as a bit of as as um something that's a um not is like a sort of the opposite of a perk really. >> Well, that that's your opinion. Everyone's got their own opinion. Um yours is >> yours is wrong, but >> you are entitled to have your wrong opinion. Mind you, I have to be nice because Chris does have my tech **[47:28]** elephant. So, [laughter] >> I do >> I need to get on the bus for 25 minutes to go and get my tech elephant at some point. I don't know when that'll be. [snorts] >> All you need to do is tell me when you're in town and I will bring it to you. >> Are you not you're not both at um a conference fairly soon at the time of this >> recording? [laughter] I mean, if we haven't met before the 14th of November, I will bring it with me. So, you'll be having me bring that and you'll be bringing something else **[47:58]** for Mike. And basically, we're all just going to swap over the native PHP snapback. Um, yeah, I Yeah, there's lots of lots of lots of transport and logistics to happen by the sounds of things. >> Well, that's that's quite a nice sort of conversation about uh conferences. to do get down to conferences and and you're not obliged to join in with everything if you don't feel comfortable. So, please don't feel like you have to, >> but the PHP community is so welcoming to **[48:30]** new people and someone there will talk to you and chat to you and >> take them take you under your wing or or whatever or if you just need to go back to your room. Mo most conferences now have spaces for people like a quiet room. We we certainly do as tech. There's a quiet room where you can go during the day and and the beauty of tech at the moment is that we we do it in a hotel. So you and most people are staying in the same hotel. So you go up to your room >> and and and if you need that time out, we complete completely understand. I don't get that privilege because I'm **[49:01]** normally running around like a complete and utter idiot most of the day [laughter] trying to make sure that all the tech works. But let's uh let's segue on a little bit more. So, one of the things that we really want to try and uh do in in as part of this sort of show and this podcast is talk a bit about um cool new stuff that's coming in P into into PHP. Uh so, what sort of things at the moment for you, Jim, that's kind of exciting new about PHP? **[49:32]** I think I think we're we're I think we're entering into a into a sort of um second second golden age if you like. The f the first golden age you'd probably say is the acceleration of both Symphony and and Laravel really. um well or you could say the rise of CMSs, but a lot of those CMSs in legacy PHP are pretty, you know, pretty sort of pretty scary under the hood. Um, **[50:03]** [snorts] but I'd say that that that there's been there's about this there's there's the in the innovation the innovation that's happening from both the Laravel and Symphony communities and then seeing both of those communities collaborate with each other and >> talk to each other and and and speak at each other's conferences and things like this is what is making everything very very **[50:35]** exciting from the innovation perspective. I mean there's there's things that there's there's old stuff that still hasn't been that there's there's there's things that have been around a long time that still haven't been transmitted outside of the PHP space that we know about. And this came up on the on the PHP podcast which is a CTO addressing other CTOs and saying that Pearl and PHP is legacy. Pearl I would argue is but that's just sort of a fact really >> and that's not really that's there's no **[51:07]** you know the reasoning is fairly sort of boring but but PHP the only reason why it's still the way it is is because the innovation behind it. So I think I think I've spoken to several developers that first of all don't know that that that through that you don't even have with React PHP you don't even have one choice of event loop you have multiple choices of event loops if you want to run an event loop and that's been that's been around since before PHP **[51:38]** fibers came in >> there was still an event loop so when anyone does the sort of when anyone who is tends to be inexperienced as PHP is slow and old and you're like right why do you think that sometimes 50% of the time they come from node world and they say well you know we have an event invent event link that's that runs asynchronously okay so what you [laughter] can do um and you know that brings into that bring brings into the fact that we've **[52:08]** had you know we've had swole and now swool plus open swole of the sort of split from that and roadrunner and stuff that we've had it for years. Um, it's just that it's not really being communicated outside the PHP space. So, we've already had this kind of >> I I think really you could say the origin story of the innovations happening now comes from um hip- hop virtual machine and the sort of the kick that that Facebook gave back to PHP and then we ended up with seven where the **[52:38]** performance and the benchmarking and we had the chip compiler and stuff like that. But there's the the new sort of crop of things that's really that's that's really exciting is um is coming from two major parts and f firstly it is um in Laravel land you have the um you have the 57 or 58 million investment from Excel and Laravel have expanded their team massively very quick rate **[53:11]** >> and I watched Joe Dixon give a keynote where he did his the first kind of demo I've seen. Well, it's not actually. It's a second demo, but now as a mature product of Laravel Cloud, and I couldn't quite believe what I was looking at. I just thought, okay, that's where the money's. That's where [laughter] the money. I've written an article that's due for public publication soon on Nightw Watch. Um, I wrote um a Vonnage RCS messaging app and I used LiveWire for the first **[53:42]** time. I know, I know I'm slow, but you know, the cogs of enterprise move slower. We have we think about >> um but I didn't just just do it with Live Wire. I did it with Live Wire and I did it with Echo and Reverb. And to watch Reverb in action, I was like, okay, this is this is really quite something. Um, and then from that community, the big one for me is probably native PHP. >> I think that native PHP when it first kind of when I first saw it, I thought, **[54:13]** >> okay, it does feel like sort of mad scientist stuff and is there a need is there a need is like how much adoption is there going to be? How much demand for it is is there? But from speaking to Shane and and Simon, the kind of the kind of target of what they want to be able to do, which is effectively I mean it starts with Laravel, but if you support them and you start deploying to production, they get maybe they can do a symfony wrapper as well. Mhm. >> The ability to boot up a Laravel app, **[54:44]** write your Laravel app, and then just have it natively running and have access to the entire native APIs of either an iOS or an Android device. >> Mhm. >> Is sort of a product killer because I know the mobile market and you speak to a Flutter developer and I'll tell you what, if there's one thing that Flutter developers hate, it's Flutter. [laughter] >> Yeah. And now and now they have Bifrost >> and and that >> that makes it even easier. >> They've got cloud bills for for it. So **[55:16]** with with by for anyone doesn't know Bifrost is is the company and that's the that's that's the the cloud built built platform for it to be able to say you can just there's an external appeal to do you know how easy it is to write a native web app? you can just do a laral app and it will just build natively onto Android or iOS >> is is kind of a bit of a kind of market game changer I think personally. >> Oh definitely. Yeah, definitely >> from the symphony world. That's that's the blur of a world. From the symphony **[55:48]** world, >> um my f my talk was a discovery talk on starting out with API platform and bear in mind that API platform has been around for 10 years and I've heard of it. >> But to actually use it absolutely blew my head off. I've never seen anything like it. It it it just it created out of all of my eloquent models. Doesn't really matter. If you want Symphony, you could just do it. It's just ind doctrine entities. You put one tag on and then start picking what attributes it uses >> and it just exposes all of [laughter] **[56:18]** your API. It's nuts. And and and a .NET developer was in the audience who was a who's one of my team members and he was like, okay, I didn't know this was possible. This is this is quite powerful stuff. And I'm like, yeah, the fact that it then comes with a front end where you for/ API and it it gives you like a swagger open API spec just like it's nuts. It's absolutely nuts. Um, so I mean that's one thing and then you've got franken PHP which is going to chase which is going to change the default **[56:50]** runtime of running PHP on the web which is the majority use case of it anyway. >> As far as I'm concerned it sounds like everything should be using Franco PHP just everything. Um it it's looking at all the I mean looking at all the benchmarks and what kind of impact and especially for if you have sort of like data workers service worker type things that are like either polling or running on crown jobs. It's it's it's just it's it's kind of like blowing other languages runtimes **[57:21]** kind of out the water a bit. Mhm. >> And of course, like I said, no one no one knows outside the PHP space because we're old hat and you know, and everyone still thinks that um everyone still thinks that oh, I'm going to say it. Sorry. Everything everyone thinks that all the code looks like sort of WordPress code and and you know, this is with a with a with a pinch of salt. I'm going to say I'm going to say this. I have uttermost respect for WordPress developers because that is the hardest platform I've ever had to get >> because it's so it's got so much tech **[57:52]** debt in the project that to do something effectively is a massive challenge and you know in Symphfony and Laravel you don't have that massive challenge because it's a sort of modern architected thing that's got maturity of 15 15 years or so. H >> it's quite amazing to think that on top of all that you've now got the next layer coming in of AI innovations. So you've got the Foundation have released their their SDK for the MCPS. You've got **[58:23]** Laravel Boost. You've got the other one whose name escapes me um Lara something. >> I've got the co-pilot one. >> That's it. Lara co-pilot. >> Yeah. you've you've got innovation of AI support, but not only that, you're beginning to see innovation in using PHP to do machine learning. >> Yeah, it it's and also and also to to to kind of to follow on from the theme of um this is this is this is great because **[58:53]** you you you finally somehow managed to get me to to talk seriously about what I do. Um I say what I do what we do actually but um following on from the theme of this of the worlds of symphony and Laravel contributing and effectively coming coming together in in in a common goal. Um you mentioned you know the Larara Copilot which comes from Vishel which is Victor technologies VTO technologies I can't remember they run Laravel India and then you've got um **[59:24]** Laravel Boost >> Mhm. That comes from Nuno, I think. >> It's Nuno and um and Oh, we've we've >> Ashley Hindley. That's it. I'm right. >> Oh, yes. >> We we've we've literally >> we've we've just recorded an episode with him which will possibly come out before this one or No, it will come out before this one. Um I'm not sorry. Brain just went dead then. That's that's **[59:54]** you've got like like I said this the sort of the separation of the world that's the innovation from the Laravel world >> and the MCP the official PHP Foundation MCP server comes from Symphony World that's people I I don't I don't know I'm going to assume it's people like sort of Nicholas Greas and people like that that have worked it'll be it'll be sort of them under Sensia Labs but that comes from that that comes from them and so you know if you think about it that if you've got a Laravel app which you then **[60:27]** are using Laravel boost for your internal AI development of the actual application itself and then the runtime environment then includes in includes uh Franken PHP to run it on and also that app needs kind of you know needs needs to needs an MCP server for for something else's interface which comes from the official PHP one they've got you've got two parts Clarabel, you've got two parts symphony and it comes together >> and you've got you've just you've got **[60:59]** some innovation and some in a development stack that I just can't really you know the only other fanboy thing I really do is is Golang and I'm still not that experienced in Golang. I know a bit um which I'm a big fan of the language. It's got its own strange intricacies, but then you know we're PHP developers. So, you know, if we want to talk about crazy double colon um interpreted wrong and a constant, that's a Israeli word **[61:30]** something whatever it's called. What's it? What's it? I can't remember what it's called. Um do you know the thing I mean? >> No. No. [laughter] I'm glad Chris said that >> the the Hebrew constant. >> Oh, you young people. Right, I've got to go and find it now. Um >> Jim, you say young people, I am older than you. >> And I'm pretty sure I'm older than you as well. [laughter] Although although in in development career I am younger than you. So I've **[62:02]** I've only been in this world for about five years. So, >> I mean, if we want to argue development careers, I started developing before PHP existed. So, >> we we know you remind us quite often. >> I know. [laughter] I I just like reminding Jim as well. >> Where's the Where's the Where's the Where's the chat? Where I feel Well, in a way, I'm not going to I'm not going to I'm not going to big you up for that. I'm basically going to say I feel sorry for you because because the languages back there must have been terrible. Where's the Where's the I can't post in the chat. >> Private chat. >> I'll have to put it in the private chat. **[62:33]** Here you go. You don't know about that, >> right? No, I have no idea what the heck that is. >> Put that up. Type it into the You can try and pronounce it for anyone listening on [laughter] this is an infamous bit like PHP joke. >> Yeah, you're you're asking the dyslexic guy to read something that's not [laughter] going to work. >> I think it's trans I think it's a sort of a sort of ang um not anglicized. What's the what's the word? a **[63:03]** a Latin version of effectively Hebrew script which was created I'm guessing from Zen because I think Zen were based in Tel Aviv and like it basically is a it's a compiler it's it's it's a run not compiler it's a runtime error and it's if there is um it's an unexpected colon but what that word is is to do with what a colon is describing in in in Hebrew, but but **[63:35]** latinized. So if you make an error, it comes back with that constant. And yeah, it's it's ridiculous. You you'll never ever see that. You'll never see that error message. You'll never you I don't think you'll ever see it in your lifetimes. But the fact that it's still there is the funny joke. It's almost like an ink joke. >> See, I am now going to have to find out if I can make it happen. >> That shouldn't be too difficult. Um, if I I've typed it in and the first thing comes up is one of Phil Sturgeon's blogs on it. Um, it's probably not surprising **[64:08]** that that Phil is the one basically laughing and it's quite a long time ago. And um, yeah, he details in there how to make it happen if you if you want to see it happen. >> I want to see it happen because I did not know this existed and I thought I'd made every error possible in PHP by this point. >> I've got a new one for you. So, we've we've now covered constants that are in a different language. Where are we going next? **[64:38]** >> Well, where do you where do you where do you where do you want to go? I'm not going to I'm not going to treat this like the podcast I used to do because me and my podcast pal was Mike Elmore and a whole >> we b we basically de like try to derail it as much as possible on purpose and it we >> some there are some there are some episodes that are virtually not not tech at all. Yes, [laughter] >> there was one where we got on to uh uh you can't buy tomatoes in supermarkets and we were talking about um uh mini **[65:10]** mini cherubs with little little willies on churches. It it it got [laughter] >> well um I'm thinking on that note [laughter] it's probably time to start thinking about signing off. We have we have gone over the hour mark that we try and stick to. Um, so Jim, thank you very much for joining us. >> It's uh we we'll have to have you back on just for just for laughs. [laughter] Just for the laugh, >> keep keeping us entertained. So I hope **[65:40]** everyone else out there that's watching or listening are entertained by this conversation as well. I'm probably going to have to rewatch it now because I can't work out what we've been talking about anymore. So >> I've got to write show notes on this in a bit. >> This this t this this this tends to happen. I don't I mean I've got I've got to say in terms of like making myself look like a um making myself like a a reliable podcast guest to have on in your general podcast whether it be **[66:10]** Magenta or Symphony or something like I'm not really doing myself any favors, am I? You know, by just derailing stuff as much as possible, but [laughter] everyone else everyone else is really sort of serious about their stuff, so I might as well come in and just sort of ruin it for everyone. But I think also it's it's shows different personalities within the community. Um so yeah or or you just do the job long enough you end up like Jim. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Become a sort of walking walking like **[66:41]** cynicism machine. That's not a Yeah. No, that's that's not an accurate way to do [laughter] it. >> I think that's the next podcast episode. How do you become as cynical as Jim? [laughter] >> That cynical. Hey man, you know, if you got me on if you got me on about two years ago talking about blockchain, it would have been a it would have been a sort of disaster, but but AI is one of those ones where like, well, no, I can't just say AI is rubbish anymore because it's kind of not and it you you've got a face that is going to change everything. So, you know, I spoke positively about **[67:13]** it. I didn't get on to, you know, uh, AI slop and weird weird political figures creating AI images that look >> obviously weird and fake and you're like, "Right, well, that's the not good side of things." >> Yeah. Okay. So, before we go down that rabbit hole, >> no, I think we'll uh we'll say leave it there for for today for this show. So, thank you very much, Jim, for spending some time with us. Um, just remember that you can head over to our Discord uh **[67:45]** server and uh jump in, have a chat. Um, there there are loads of people in there, developers like us, and then you've got PHP royalty in there that built packages that you probably use every single day if you're a professional PHP developer. >> We even have core developers >> the language. Yeah, we have core developers in there um that will answer questions if you need it or just general chat. We just just sit back and chill. Um also don't forget to go head over to **[68:17]** YouTube if you're not already on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel. Uh like the video um will be great. Um and don't forget magazine discount. If you're listening to this, you do get a discount. a live all capital three will give you three months of the digital subscription for free when you sign up for a year's uh subscription. And if you can, I would like to we'd love to see you over at Tech Tech next year um or this year depending on when we actually release this episode. I'm sure it'll be **[68:49]** 25. So 26 is tickets are on sale and also our swag. We've got our t-shirts and things like that that we looked at earlier that the uh link is not broken. It does work as we have proven earlier. So, thank you very much once again, [laughter] Jim. Thank you very much for everyone watching or listening and we'll catch you at the next one. See you. Bye.